Why EQ2 lose people to other games like WOW.

[dag norway]

<p>This post is not to say anything bad about EQ2 but to phutt  some light on some of the issues the game got.</p><p>We have noticed for each day that goes Eq2 lose people and WOW is getting bigger and bigger.</p><p>Me personal has lost ower 30 people that i know to WOW.</p><p>So i belive many other in the game has lost also friends.</p><p>So why dos this happen? why do WOW  get so much people and still is growing and getting bigger?</p><p>Here is some of the answers i belive.</p><p>Many people who plays EQ2 or other online games got a RL or work can we say so they cant play up to 10 hours a day.</p><p>A normal famely man can maby put in 3 hours to 4 hours a day in the game and then they want to see some progress on theyr character when they are logging of when they are done.</p><p>How EQ2 now is so issent it much progress you can get on your character when you are using 3 to 4 hours a day in this game.</p><p>The game has been made that you need to put in so many hours each day so many people dosent have the time and effort to do that</p><p>Wow is easyer to level so people feel they are getting something back when they log of for the night.</p><p>But even if you level fast in wow and get to  to max level you got so many other things to do so you feel its like no ending.</p><p>Eq2 and the new zones that is comming out is to small, to little quests,so all you can do is to harvest or try to get in a good raiding guild.</p><p>But we must remember that many people in the game dosent like to only raid and like to have fun and do quests,but so long it issent much of that in the new expansions that is comming out then the quests get done fast.</p><p>A other big issue EQ2 got is the raiding part.</p><p>I belive on each server you will have one or two high end raiding guild.</p><p>They take the raiding zones fast and learn it fast,then its getting easy for them and then SOE makes them harder for them,BUT then what about the other guilds that hassent learned the new zones yet?</p><p>They will have it much harder because they havent got the loot yet to survive in the new zones,but moust of the high end guilds has already been in the new zones and harvested the new gear when it was easyer in the begining. (good example is Inner sanctum)</p><p>So when a guild that issent so good is going to try to go in and try to take the zones will have a much harder time to make it.</p><p>I dont have anything against high end guilds because they deserve all the good things and they have worked realy hard to get where they are,but i only try to put some light on some issues.</p><p>a other issue is that it is many guilds in the game that want to raid but they cant because they dosent have people.</p><p>Many guilds got 3 grps that is and want to raid but they miss the last grp.</p><p>So why cant SOE make the raid zones to scale that if you go in with three grp then the raid zone scale to that. but then its not going to axept more than three grps so if any other log in they cant go in because you have chosen the 3x version.</p><p>i personaly belive many more of the guilds in the game whould raid more and sucseed more if SOE did finde something out about this issue.</p><p>It is easy to say that  your guild must finde more people,but many people has quit the game and still are quitting the game each day. and many dosent want to leave theyr guild because of friends. and that is how it should be.</p><p>And we see that SOE must merge servers and i belive it whould happen soon again because people leave the game.</p><p>Then SOE must see what they are doing wrong and maby try to turn this around and get people back in the game and show that they are interested to keep theyr customers because in the end its we that is paying the game and if we are not here SOE dosent get in theyr money.</p><p>EQ2 is a realy awsome game and i love to play it,but i see the same problems here is comming like it was in EQ1.</p>

[Rattfa]

Sounds like your biggest issues are that you want to level faster, play an easier game and your guild doesnt have enough people. They should put in an instalevel70 button on the island just for you so you dont have to waste time levelling. That way you can spend all your grind time into recruiting new guild members. Problems solved.

[Norrsken]

Interresting. Wow is IMHO a lackluter game. It has more subscribers, true. But "more" does not mean "better". Wow is a short game, you reach the end, and then you are done. All there is to do is grind rep or raids. RAids that are not the least bit different fromt he EQ2 ones. You learn them, and they become more or less trivial. There are less quests in Wow, less content, and virually no lore at all to delve into. And the community in wow is full of infantile l2p leets. Ask a question in general chat in wow, and you get 10-20 l2p nub replies, and if you are lucky, one helpful. Try to do the same in eq2. Nah, I tried wow, found it severely lacking and went back to eq2. For all its faults and odd quirks, eq2 is still, in my opinion, far superior to wow. STill, would a better game come by, I'd switch.

[Karlen]

The OP appears to be complaining that it takes too long for people that don't have a lot of time to play to get to the point (level 70) where there is nothing to do.

[Norrsken]

Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>The OP appears to be complaining that it takes too long for people that don't have a lot of time to play to get to the point (level 70) where there is nothing to do. </blockquote>Seems like it. Horribly bad formatting and language in his post though. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And, its not the end that is important, enjoy the ride. (And if you really wanna get to the end, its doable in a month or two of casual gameplay)

[dag norway]

<p>i totaly agree that more people in a game will  not always make things better.</p><p>myself got two toons that is L70 and couple alts that soon is there,like many others in the game.</p><p>I dosent say that we need a button on refugee island to make people L70.</p><p>Its a difference to shave yourself and cut of your head.</p><p>i am one of them that can use alott of time in the game,but i know many cant and i try to see it from both sides.</p><p>I dont say that WOW is better game,but they must do something right,because for each day more people go ower to that game.</p><p>the first day they did give out theyr expansion they sold ower 2 mill copys.</p><p>I am not after to put any of the games in bad light,and tell who is better or not,but to have a discussion how EQ2 can be better.</p>

[Norrsken]

dag norway wrote: <blockquote><p>i totaly agree that more people in a game will  not always make things better.</p><p>myself got two toons that is L70 and couple alts that soon is there,like many others in the game.</p><p>I dosent say that we need a button on refugee island to make people L70.</p><p>Its a difference to shave yourself and cut of your head.</p><p>i am one of them that can use alott of time in the game,but i know many cant and i try to see it from both sides.</p><p>I dont say that WOW is better game,but they must do something right,because for each day more people go ower to that game.</p><p>the first day they did give out theyr expansion they sold ower 2 mill copys.</p><p>I am not after to put any of the games in bad light,and tell who is better or not,but to have a discussion how EQ2 can be better.</p></blockquote>With 8 million subscribers, and not a single expansion for 2 years, only 2 mil sold copies is quite bad in my opinion. And what they do right in wow is marketing. Have you seen an eq2 ad the last 2 years? Did you see any ads before release? Now compare that to the WoW marketing. Its all over the place. and people are leaving eq2 because, truth be tol,d its boring to play the same game for 2 years. You need some fresh perspective. LEt people play wow for a few months. Then welcome them back to EQ2. And feel free to start the conversation about how to make EQ2 a better game. Most of us here are here because we didnt like Wow and the way things were done there. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kizee]

<p>I hope he is kidding about leveling too slow in this game.</p><p>I just started an alt and had to shut the exp off because she was leveling way way too fast.</p>

[steelbadger]

It'd be a funny ol' world if we all liked the same thing... The thing is, y'see, the big <i>thing</i> is that people who play EQ2 play it for a reason.  Because it is DIFFERENT from WoW, and so are not likely to take kindly to the game being changed into a WoW Mk 2.  Besides, that wouldn't help the game at all, WoW is <i>well known</i> for being WoW, if people want a WoW type game they go to WoW. Making EQ2 identical to WoW would not help anything, they would lose >50% of their current subscribers and be unlikely to reclaim any from WoW, why leave WoW to play a game that is <i>exactly the same?</i> EQ2 has to be different, it has to be an alternative, to be successful. Adverts would help too.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

Don't see that issue honestly. Our guild is growing daily pretty much...and I can't think of 1 person that I know who defected to WoW. I have heard of a couple from my server that reputedly went to Vanguard (not from my circles though). Interestingly enough, I still them running around Norrath occasionnally too.....hmm.

[Ishya]

<p>what the OP fails to understand, is that the journey to lvl 70 makes 90% of the game</p><p>and trying to get to lvl 70 as fast as possible is actually skipping most of the game</p>

[interstellarmatter]

<p>First off, I play both WoW and EQ2.  I can tell you that leveling is not easier in WoW.  It's a myth.  In fact, once you reach in your 40s in WoW, the quests really start to thin out.  In EQ2, you can keep going all the way to 70 just doing quest after quest.  In WoW, you forced to pretty much grind after you've completed all the quests.  In EQ2, once you hit 70, there is still stuff for a casual player.  In WoW, it's raid and run the same instances over and over and over.</p><p>Only thing WoW really has that is more in tuned to the casual player is better itemization and drops.  </p><p>I also believe the high population of WoW gets more players than anything else.  Players like to be in a realm that is full of other players.  At the moment, EQ2 can feel pretty dead at certain times of the day.</p><p>The system requirements also gets all the players who can't afford a computer to play EQ2.</p>

[Looker1010]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Karlen@Befallen wrote: <blockquote>The OP appears to be complaining that it takes too long for people that don't have a lot of time to play to get to the point (level 70) where there is nothing to do. </blockquote>Seems like it. Horribly bad formatting and language in his post though. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And, its not the end that is important, enjoy the ride. (And if you really wanna get to the end, its doable in a month or two of casual gameplay) </blockquote> Did you not notice that he is "Dag Norway" or do you just not care? Obviously english is not his first language. I wonder how well you do "formatting and language" in Norwegian? Knock of the cheap shots.

[DrRothchild]

WoW is popular...until you reach level cap. That's when the casual and raider get separated out. In EQ2 there are many nice short instances to run at 70, craft, mentor, raid, etc to keep you busy. In WoW, it's raid, grind faction, or get destroyed in the little BG's by professionals. No thanks. I'll stay here. It's plenty casual here and fun on top of it. 

[Kellin]

<p>Comparing EQ2 and WoW is useless.  If you want to play a game like WoW, go for the real thing and play WoW.  Why are you playing EQ2 and not WoW?  Think about it.</p><p>EQ2 is plenty casual.  Any class can solo.  Any mob can drop an exquisite chest.  Over 3K (or is it 4K now) quests to do.  Lots of solo, group, and raid content.  I think they did a pretty [Removed for Content] good job trying to be all things to all people.  You just can't make every single person happy all the time.</p><p>People leaving the game is natural.  It's over 2 years old right now.  How long does someone play the average console game?  One week?  One month, maybe?  Certainly not over and over for years.  So getting tired of the game is to be expected.  People try something new.  People take a break.  Quite a few of them come back to playing, some don't.  Some get interested in a new game.  Some quit gaming entirely.</p><p>SOE could certainly do more marketing.  I'm not entirely sure why they don't; I know it's expensive, but you gotta spend money to make money.  Perhaps a letter to the president of the company is in order.  There would have to be a reason for them to dump that much cash into developing, maintaining and expanding a game and then not supporting it with marketing.</p><p>As for not having enough in your guild to raid, well, open your raids up.  My tiny guild is in an informal alliance with two other guilds.  We have open raids three times a week.  We fill them with people from the main three guilds, and look for the rest in channels.  It's been surprisingly successful, and the largest guild (the one the raid leader is from) is actually getting new recruits from the people who attend.</p><p>Size of the world?  I don't play WoW, so I can't comment much on it.  I do know it's zoneless, which gives the impression of a much larger world, but from what I've heard, there's much less actual content, and very little lore.  I've never thought Norrath was too small, especially when I'm in Qeynos and my guildies want me to go to Steamfont (evil eye to all the people who "miss having the boats&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  And with the frequency of expansions and the occasional events, it's changing enough to keep me engaged.</p>

[Skua]

wow raids are more fun imo , bosses at leasts =P wow itemization >>>>>>>>>>> eq2 gamplay meh both different but , sometimes eq2 become a bit 12345678 , repeat for some classes and thats BORING , yeah in wow u press 2 3 4 over and over.... wow pvp far from balanced but fun and u can choose if u want to...or no......battlegrounds... wow mounts , flying mounts... eq2 wins in quests , graphics , and the community =)  in wow 60-70 was a step in the right direction , plenty of quest to lvl 60-70 TWICE and still have quests to do.... 40-58 is the problem if u dont know how to make it.... eq2 classes , bards , enchanters , monks, 3 types of healers (Hots , reactive ,wards), in wow u have 4 healers (druids hots, paladin spam heals, priest shield and heals aoeheals, shaman totems.and heals) wow app1-app2-app3-app4. adept 1 ----3 , master I y II .........WHAT WERE U THINKING SOE? always wonder [Removed for Content] was soe thinking when put spells in grades...............is a bad idea imo.......... AAs in eq2 =/ archetype are "ok" need 1h , need buclker need rapier , need 2nd hand empty >.<  Classes AAs meh reduce timers, improve a bit....lasts AAs are ok.... Talents in wow = win Expansions = eq2 wins , 3 expansions in no time ......... mentoring classes starts at 1 (1-9 mage,10-19 X , 20-50 FINALLY !"·!"$$!" (THANKS!)) little to no debt penalty on death 0.5 means nothing nowadays (thats good imo for me =P a lot of ppl dislike it ) eq2 as game is fun yeah , community is better , more quests , more zones , more expansions....but =/  hard to get groups 1-60 (imo), good economy (no bad at all ) awesome game overall isnt perfect (Far from it but... ) wow fails in community is awful.........raid are fun but u need to farm potions 5hours/ raid thats a huge fail..... blizz as soe like to nerf nerf nerf...... Faction grind ............pfffffffffff big fail in the expansion..... endgame items are sidegrades from quest rewards....(fixing it in the next patch tho) cofee time ! later =)

[liveja]

dag norway wrote: <blockquote><p>Many people who plays EQ2 or other online games got a RL or work can we say so they cant play up to 10 hours a day.</p></blockquote><p> Dag, without meaning to criticize you in any way: I have to assume you have never played WoW, & have never visited the WoW forums to see what people talk about.</p><p>If you were to do that, you'd see precisely the same complaints there -- regarding both the time it takes to progress, & the horrendous amount of raiding you must do at the level cap, in order to progress.</p><p>Simply put, the grass isn't any greener in Azeroth.</p>

[Tomanak]

<p>EQ2 is not like WoW? Good. I for one would rather have a smaller more qualitied community than a large mass of seething ignorance, not to say that people who play WoW are ignorant, but when you have 2 million + subscribers the chances are certainly higher <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Personally I've seen 4 people in my guild go to WoW. 3 have come back and the fourth is lurking on the guild boards asking whats new in EQ2 <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>While I can not claim to be a truly casual gamer (I log more than 30 hours in game a week) there are some nights I only pop on for an hour or so. In that hour I can still complete a few quests, finish up a couple of TS orders or just browse the broker and chat. Either way I dont log feeling like I havent accomlished anything. I just set my goals for the night based on how much playtime I have. Can you complete a HQ in an hour? probably not, but you shouldnt plan to, any more that you should expect to do a raid in an hour. Set your goals accordingly, dont stress getting to 70 and you will find that you level just fine and get things done at whatever pace you need to. Just because others have the time to grind 23 hours out of 24 doesnt mean you have to. If it takes me 4 weeks to get to 70 and it takes you 4 months, at the end of it, we are both 70 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>EQ2 is for all its issues a better game than WoW. As pointed out by others, its biggest failing is marketing. When EoF was released I had to hunt for it, when Burning Crusade was released it came hunting me <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[liveja]

<cite>SkuaII wrote:</cite><blockquote> Talents in wow = win </blockquote><p>I use to think that, too. Then I actually played two different characters up to level 60, & realized that the talent system is actually one of that game's worst aspects.</p><p>It's hard to explain why, but the problem is that in WoW, talents are NECESSARY, whereas in EQ2, I leveled all the way to 60 without having a single AP, & never once felt hampered for it. EQ2 APs are there to give you an extra boost; WoW talents define your character into a pigeonhole.</p><p>The best way to see how badly WoW implemented the talent trees is to look at the Druid class. Quite frankly, IMHO, the two Druid classes in EQ2 are, hands-down, vastly superior to the patheticly mis-conceived "triple strength" Druid of WoW.</p>

[Spyderbite]

dag norway wrote: <blockquote>I dont say that WOW is better game,but they must do something right,because for each day more people go ower to that game.</blockquote> They did something right, alright. They cater to those who want instant gratification in a game. If that's the sort of people WoW is attracting.. I say good riddance. Quality vs. Quantity.

[Veet]

EQ2 is superior to WoW in all ways but two. One is preference, one is fact. In all other aspects, EQ2 trounces WoW. One: Graphical style. Some people prefer the WoW stylized graphics over the EQ2 "more realistic" style. (but not me) Two: EQ2 requires a much more powerful machine to run well and look nice. (but when you have that machine, it's freaking gorgeous) Community: Eq2 surpasses wow by a landslide. The forum and in-game community are super helpful all the time. Even when you get into flame wars...there's a certain civility about them. Furthermore, I've never *ever* had someone randomly beg me for money is EQ. In WoW, it happened to me all the time. I don't recall ever being told to "L2P noob" in eq either. #of quests: EQ2 wins hands down. no discussion needed. #of quest type: EQ2 also wins. I get quests all the time just by randomly looking at stuff. "Oh what's this book?" Quest! "Oh what's this thing I picked up?" Quest! Collection Quests. Language Quests. Kill. Deliver. Find. Touch. Catalog. Explore. Et-freaking-cetera. Non-PVP titles: The only way (last I heard) to get a title in WoW is to kill other players. In EQ2 there are faction title, PVP titles, 34 hunter/slayers of mob type titles.  Achievement titles. World event titles. Probably more. Mentoring: Don't let the City of Heroes people fool you. We had it first. You want to group with someone lower level? Great, mentor down and have fun! Player Housing (and furniture!): no comparison <i>because WoW doesn't have it. </i>Levelled Content: some of the content in eq2 is levelled to match the characters playing it. How awesome is that? Furthermore, if you're levelling too fast, you can turn your XP off. Expansion packs: 3 expansion packs and 3 adventure pack (mini expansions) in as many years. Wow has what, one? World Size: I've played both. EQ2 dwarfs WoW. Lore matters: There actually is a good vs. evil in EQ and it matters. With EoF gods matter. Sometimes paying attention to the lore will actually help gameplay, particularly when looking for out of the way stuff. 24 Classes, 18 Races: And only a couple of the classes are limited to good/evil and none of them are limited by race (though races are limited by alignment- can't be a good dark elf) Are you sick of looking at Tuaren or Night elf Druids? Me too. Betrayal: Oh wait. You can be a good dark-elf. Roll an evil dark elf or ratonga and decide that you are, in fact, a tree hugging hippy? Go ahead and switch sides. In short: the people playing WoW just have no idea what they're missing. The same goes for people that don't have the sophistication of palate to appreciate caviar. I could go on, but I really want to play now. [edit: spelling mistake] [another edit: forgot something]

[Gungo]

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>First off, I play both WoW and EQ2.  I can tell you that leveling is not easier in WoW.  It's a myth.  In fact, once you reach in your 40s in WoW, the quests really start to thin out.  In EQ2, you can keep going all the way to 70 just doing quest after quest.  In WoW, you forced to pretty much grind after you've completed all the quests.  In EQ2, once you hit 70, there is still stuff for a casual player.  In WoW, it's raid and run the same instances over and over and over.</p><p>Only thing WoW really has that is more in tuned to the casual player is better itemization and drops.  </p><p>I also believe the high population of WoW gets more players than anything else.  Players like to be in a realm that is full of other players.  At the moment, EQ2 can feel pretty dead at certain times of the day.</p><p>The system requirements also gets all the players who can't afford a computer to play EQ2.</p></blockquote><p> I agree. The leveling difficulty of wow vs eq2 is very thin. At first eq2 did take longer to lvl and was more challenging. That changed with alot of updates. The speed and amoutn fo vitlity the accumulation fo debt, etc. In the end eq2 is no harder to level then WoW. </p><p>In the end eq2 lost to wow based on a better released game with better marketing. This can be seen with the flop of vanguard. It had alot of good premises but a poor release and marketing. It can also be seen with EOF it released fairly polished and sold more then any other expansion. </p><p>Here is eq2 current dilemma. Content or polish. The devs have only so much time. People eat up the content Fast, so they continue to desire more POLISHED content. Can the devs keep up? I honestly don't know. I liked the fallen dynasty project. It took another SoE development team and made an adventure pack for eq2. I think more of this should be done. While at the same time the core developement team works on the LARGE EoF or now Ruins of kunark expansion. This can help with the content vs polish debate. Raise the price of the adv pack (15 dollars is fine for people who crave high level content). I have no problem paying for chunks of content. Then eventually after a few expansions keep the adventure packs included in a package deal like EQ1 does. </p>

[Dasein]

EQ2 is very well designed for a casual player, with a number of instances at all levels that can be completed in an hour or two, mixed in with open dungens and quests of all sorts. Levelling speed is fine, and there is a ton of content at level 70 with more being added each GU.

[zaun2]

EQ2 is definitely at the minimum on par with WoW when it comes to content and interesting stuff. Perhaps there is a way to address both the need for content and the need for polished content, and that would be generic, easily rendered adventure packs like Splitpaw which use one zone with areas blocked off, being released every 3-6 months, and a highly polished major expansion that hits the stores when the devs feel like its ready. Only caveat would be that there would have to be two dev teams pretty much, one doing the "quickie" content, passing it to QA, the other working on the major expansions.

[Slapfish]

<p>I have to say I completely disagree with the OP's theories as to why more people play WOW. I think it has FAR less to do with the nature of the game and more to do with the fact that it's become a social phenomenon for younger people. WoW is to the 2000's what the card game Magic was to 1990's. Everyone plays it so everyone that doesn't wants to see what it's all about. It's become a way for friends to get together and hang out, chat with each other and have some fun. </p><p>Marketing had a lot to do with it, but I think it also has to do with the style of the game and basic simplicity of it.  EQ2 evolved from EQ1, which evolved from tabletop games like Dungeons and Dragons. Those games are somewhat complex and really require a lot of learning of the math and statistics involved. WoW evolved from standard computer and console games and the majority of people playing WoW, or buying any new MMORPG have grown up playing console games, and their interests and expectations are very different. </p>

[Yank]

<p>OP, like stated a few times already, most here have probably tried wow if not played it a lot.</p><p>I played wow from release for over a year, raided quite a bit as well. Had a shaman in full MC gear and was replacing/augmenting those pieces with BWL gear and AQ drops when we did those zones. I played on Medivh which opend AQ first, which was a good idea wow had in the global race to open the gates. WoW has its high points, but the ever constant changing of classes and talents was just horrible. Graphics IMO are cartoony and are nothing compared to eq2 albeit you have to have the higher end PC to crank graphics especially on raids here in eq2. The Legend/Lore is non existant. The game is constantly being dumbed down and quite frankly it seems like 70% plus of the population are kids, with as also previously stated, too much leet speak crap. Eq2 IMO has a much more mature population willing to help out other people if not just advice, again, try to get that in wow and see how many ignorant kiddy like responses you get. I could go on all day with wow's short comings IMO, the only reason I played as long as I did is that I was with my guild from eq1 and really liked hanging out with them but eventually the game became so annoying I had to leave my friends to find a game that was actually fun for me.</p><p>Different strokes for different folks. If you want a game like wow, go play wow. I would venture to guess most people here dont want a game like wow or a lot of wow's qualities in this game, hence why we are here in eq2 and not in wow.</p>

[Zagats]

<cite>Kellin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>People leaving the game is natural.  It's over 2 years old right now.  How long does someone play the average console game?  One week?  One month, maybe?  Certainly not over and over for years.  So getting tired of the game is to be expected.  People try something new.  People take a break.  Quite a few of them come back to playing, some don't.  Some get interested in a new game.  Some quit gaming entirely.</p></blockquote><p>I've been playing Megaman since 1988.  I still play every Megaman game from Megaman 1 - 10, and X to X8.  My favorite is, at the time being, Megaman X (1).  It's just so much fun that I cant quit playing.</p><p>I played EQ1 for 5 years.  I stopped EQ1 for EQ2 and am still playing, having just recently gotten my 3 year /claim.  I got bored with my main.  I had raided for over a year, doing DoF zones like pharming eyes and then killing Godking Anuk, to the KoS zones, and then EoF zones.  What I realized is that raids are all the same to me.  And after more than a year, it got really boring.  So I quit raiding, and was just doing instances/helping other people do quests.  That got really boring really quickly.</p><p>So I started an alt, and am having a great amount of fun leveling him up.  I rarely ever play my "main" anymore, other than to pharm Poet's or to make some jewelry for someone.  </p><p>If you're getting bored, try a new character.  Make a character that you can connect with, not just one that's extremely powerful.   My next character up will probably be a defiler, because I've heard theyre hard to level up... Well, I like a challenge!</p>

[Ravaan]

<p>A few months back I left EQ2 for WoW and I have to say this. I have NO idea how WoW has 8 million subscribers. Now don't get me wrong I am not an Eq2 fanboi i know it has flaws but in the 30 days I played WoW (I didn't even make it past the free trial), i could barely stomach it.</p><p>I guess the reason I would say most play WoW, is because it basically holds your hand through the game. Also there is really no reason to group from level 1-70, I was even told that on the WoW forums, the game actually deters you from grouping up with others. now i'm not a "forced grouping" Vanguard fanatic ... but this is a MMO. if you consider WoW a multiplayer game then you must consider solitare a multiplayer game if 4 people are playing it at the same table. </p><p>now yes EQ2 is not THAT difficult either WoW is childsplay compared to EQ2.</p>

[Odomfel]

<p>I believe that the majority of folks have started out in WoW becasue they were fed up with the way SOE did things. EQ1 had a lot wrong with it at times and the way SOE took care of it put a lot of people off. This was the main gripe I'd hear from folks.</p><p>That maybe explain the initial surge in population...</p><p>Only thing I can think of that keeps that game going now is it has reached a critical mass. So many peeps over there it is just kind of feeding on itself. Eventually the game will die off becasue of a lack of new things to do. It'll pass. Everything I have heard form folks is that it does lack quality.</p><p>EQ2 is by far, IMO, the best developed game I've seen in a while. the graphics are beauytifully done, the classes are nice and balanced and so is the content. Things can be fixed that's for sure. I think they need to add more content in the form of adventure packs.</p><p>You can't capture lightning in a bottle twice. EQ1 was SOE's bolt. Now Blizzard gets thiers. Like an earlier post. I prefer quality over Quantity.</p>

[liveja]

Yannos@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><p>Also there is really no reason to group from level 1-70, I was even told that on the WoW forums, the game actually deters you from grouping up with others.</p></blockquote><p>Well .... to be fair, I don't think that's entirely true. I think WoW has much the same grouping "issue" as does EQ2: there's no reason to group, UNLESS you want to finish up the quest-lines that lead you into dungeons -- all of which were heavily populated by "elite" mobs, which is Blizzard's version of "heroic", or UNLESS you actually want a chance at much better loot, much faster, than you can generally get soloing.</p><p>I think both of those "UNLESS" clauses provide a pretty darn good incentive to group up, in both games.</p>

[Cathars]

Lynsi@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>what the OP fails to understand, is that the journey to lvl 70 makes 90% of the game</p><p>and trying to get to lvl 70 as fast as possible is actually skipping most of the game</p></blockquote> Absolutely.  There is soooo much good content on the way, its a shame that theres this common mentality that you have to reach the level cap as fast as possible.  Play the game instead of trying to win the game.

[YeldarbSpiritbla]

<p>Who is losing to who now? Thanks to the incredible flop that "polished" TBC was, WoW is now merging servers, and the American subscriptions are going DOWN. Hopefully EQ2 will pick up a bunch of those people before Age of Conan, LoTRO, and others get them.</p><p>BTW LoTRO makes WoW look like a grown up game, if that is at all possible...</p>

[DynamicPerforman]

I beta'd LOTRO... It was fantastic at first, but in their push to eliminate the requirement for any class, they have destroyed the balance.

[oduth]

<p> I played Eq2 for about 3 weeks and i dumped my WOW subscription.</p><p>  Eq2 is a deeper game. But i since cancelled my EQ2 susb. and i am now back on world of warcrack. </p><p>  The reason being is population. There was noone to group with. Ever. No matter what time i was on and no matter what the population level was. According to what the server pop.said. </p><p>   i'm in no way knocking the game its a good one....and to each his own. But there is one thing i wanted to mention about WOW. Once you hit level cap you do not have to Raid. You can easily PVP and get nice gear. I have done that playing Battlegrounds for an hour to 2 hours a night and i still managed to get nice gear.</p><p>  But both games have their flaws and there strengths. WOW has Tons of lore and you can RP easily just as EQ2 does.</p><p>    But what EQ2 does do well is the contient. Quests are great and the story behind them.  And graphically its beautifu.</p><p>   In my opinion i like WOW and will continue to play untill its a Goast Town. But i did really enjoy my visit to NORRATH!</p><p>    </p>

[Dwightdee]

WoW had an infinitely better pre-launch and launch phase than EQ2. WoW can be played on your grandmother's e-machine. WoW had the built-in, massive player base of Blizzard/bnet/warcraft. WoW was more aggressively marketed. Thats why theres many times more people playing WoW than EQ2. EQ2 is a better game today than WoW is, but i don't believe it was always that way.  A lot of people i know are moving here now because of the fact that eq2 is so good now and that wow has gotten old to a lot of people. Will that translate into longterm growth for eq2? I don't know, maybe the newer games will get those people and not us.  /shrug But this is a great game now and we should be happy to have it instead of worrying about who is playing some other game.

[liveja]

<p>More people play WoW than EQ2, for the same reason that more people like Britney Spears, than Miles Davis: far too many people prefer glitzy, schlocky, airheaded garbage over real art.</p><p>& that's all there is to it.</p>

[Norrsken]

Dunno why people keep saying WoW was more polished at release. When I tried it, at release, it kept crashing to desktop all over the place. EQ2 didnt crash to me, but due to the abundant memory leaks, it had to be restarted every hour or two. Wow also had a ton of issues with graphics that a non game dev prolly wouldnt see, so its a non issue. but it sure yanked my chain quite a bit to stand at a specific distance from a hill and see it switch LOD levels back and forth each frame, not to mention the LOD levels meshes looked vastly different so you easily saw the popping. Ugh. The ONE thing I miss from wow is getting drunk in a bar and talking trash about gnomes. Wow does getting drunk and sitting on chairs infinately better than EQ2.

[Chirpaa]

<p>The funniest thing about the Original post is, in my opinion, the fact that everything he had to say that is "wrong" with EQ2 is the ONLY thing in WoW once you get a toon to the end game (and arguably the last 10 levels of it added in the expansion).  So what it is saying is the following things: x,y,z are wrong with EQ2, so people are going to WoW instead where very soon the ONLY things for them will be.. x,y,z..  makes alot of sense.. not.</p><p> Considering even a casual player playing the number of hours a day OP mentioned should be to the end game in less than 2 months...um.. yah.  Play WoW for more than a few weeks before you compare EQ2 to WoW and say what's wrong with one or the other, as your points are invalid.</p><p>Other people have hit the nail on the head much better, particular the very intelligent poster who used the Britney Spears vs. Miles Davis analogy.</p><p>Additionally, as someone already has said, WoW is no longer growing, it is shrinking.  The expansion is a huge disappointment to a lot of people, and the fact is it was always a shallow game.  Alot of people were just "hanging in there" hoping for some kind of wonderment to come with the expansion that would change the tedium that was the end game of WoW.  Instead, they just added a lot more of the exact same tedium.  It's put a lot of old time players off, and they are leaving for other games.  WoW is a dying game, it's just so enormous it will take quite a while before it becomes obvious to everyone.  A very long time.  That doesnt' chagne the fact that it IS dying.</p>

[liveja]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Dunno why people keep saying WoW was more polished at release. </blockquote><p>Because they have either forgotten, or else never knew, about the various issues WoW did have at release: roughly 20 of their servers (the infamous "Terrible 20" ) were unreliable, & remained so until at least April '05; only one "end-game" raid instance, Molten Core, & that one, IIRC, had to be patched in after release; no PvP battlegrounds, even though those were expected by many people at release; horrid lag; bugs & more bugs; "world PvP" that made questing hubs like Southshore & Tarren Mill virtually unplayable for anyone below 60th level, & insanely laggy even for the level 60s; very poor class balance, with some classes uberfied & others nearly broken; & so on.</p><p>Now that WoW is running much more smoothly, people have simply chosen to forget the bad times at release.</p>

[Thunderthyze]

dag norway wrote: <blockquote><p>They take the raiding zones fast and learn it fast,then its getting easy for them and then SOE makes them harder for them,BUT then what about the other guilds that hassent learned the new zones yet?</p><p>They will have it much harder because they havent got the loot yet to survive in the new zones,but moust of the high end guilds has already been in the new zones and harvested the new gear when it was easyer in the begining. (good example is Inner sanctum)</p><p>So when a guild that issent so good is going to try to go in and try to take the zones will have a much harder time to make it.</p></blockquote>Good point, and kudos on posting on a foreign language forum mate.

[liveja]

Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>dag norway wrote: <blockquote><p>They take the raiding zones fast and learn it fast,then its getting easy for them and then SOE makes them harder for them,BUT then what about the other guilds that hassent learned the new zones yet?</p><p>They will have it much harder because they havent got the loot yet to survive in the new zones,but moust of the high end guilds has already been in the new zones and harvested the new gear when it was easyer in the begining. (good example is Inner sanctum)</p><p>So when a guild that issent so good is going to try to go in and try to take the zones will have a much harder time to make it.</p></blockquote>Good point, and kudos on posting on a foreign language forum mate.</blockquote><p>The problem with the point Dag made, is that it's equally true of WoW. I'm not quite sure why people don't seem to see that. I think those who don't see it either have never played WoW, or else haven't played it to the "end game", & are still in their "everything in Azeroth is rosey" stage.</p><p>It's simply NOT any different over there.</p>

[TheSource123]

dag norway wrote: <blockquote><p>This post is not to say anything bad about EQ2 but to phutt  some light on some of the issues the game got.</p><p>We have noticed for each day that goes Eq2 lose people and WOW is getting bigger and bigger.</p><p>Me personal has lost ower 30 people that i know to WOW.</p><p>So i belive many other in the game has lost also friends.</p><p>So why dos this happen? why do WOW  get so much people and still is growing and getting bigger?</p><p>Here is some of the answers i belive.</p><p>Many people who plays EQ2 or other online games got a RL or work can we say so they cant play up to 10 hours a day.</p><p>A normal famely man can maby put in 3 hours to 4 hours a day in the game and then they want to see some progress on theyr character when they are logging of when they are done.</p><p>How EQ2 now is so issent it much progress you can get on your character when you are using 3 to 4 hours a day in this game.</p><p>The game has been made that you need to put in so many hours each day so many people dosent have the time and effort to do that</p><p>Wow is easyer to level so people feel they are getting something back when they log of for the night.</p><p>But even if you level fast in wow and get to  to max level you got so many other things to do so you feel its like no ending.</p><p>Eq2 and the new zones that is comming out is to small, to little quests,so all you can do is to harvest or try to get in a good raiding guild.</p><p>But we must remember that many people in the game dosent like to only raid and like to have fun and do quests,but so long it issent much of that in the new expansions that is comming out then the quests get done fast.</p><p>A other big issue EQ2 got is the raiding part.</p><p>I belive on each server you will have one or two high end raiding guild.</p><p>They take the raiding zones fast and learn it fast,then its getting easy for them and then SOE makes them harder for them,BUT then what about the other guilds that hassent learned the new zones yet?</p><p>They will have it much harder because they havent got the loot yet to survive in the new zones,but moust of the high end guilds has already been in the new zones and harvested the new gear when it was easyer in the begining. (good example is Inner sanctum)</p><p>So when a guild that issent so good is going to try to go in and try to take the zones will have a much harder time to make it.</p><p>I dont have anything against high end guilds because they deserve all the good things and they have worked realy hard to get where they are,but i only try to put some light on some issues.</p><p>a other issue is that it is many guilds in the game that want to raid but they cant because they dosent have people.</p><p>Many guilds got 3 grps that is and want to raid but they miss the last grp.</p><p>So why cant SOE make the raid zones to scale that if you go in with three grp then the raid zone scale to that. but then its not going to axept more than three grps so if any other log in they cant go in because you have chosen the 3x version.</p><p>i personaly belive many more of the guilds in the game whould raid more and sucseed more if SOE did finde something out about this issue.</p><p>It is easy to say that  your guild must finde more people,but many people has quit the game and still are quitting the game each day. and many dosent want to leave theyr guild because of friends. and that is how it should be.</p><p>And we see that SOE must merge servers and i belive it whould happen soon again because people leave the game.</p><p>Then SOE must see what they are doing wrong and maby try to turn this around and get people back in the game and show that they are interested to keep theyr customers because in the end its we that is paying the game and if we are not here SOE dosent get in theyr money.</p><p>EQ2 is a realy awsome game and i love to play it,but i see the same problems here is comming like it was in EQ1.</p></blockquote><p>The reason why WoW sucks up the MMO market is because it gets so many subscribers who are "new" to the PC industry, or were "bad" at other PC games.</p><p>WoW is basically a console MMO played with a mouse/keyboard.</p><p>It's graphics are simple and easy to run, just like a consoles.</p><p>Your objectives are CLEARLY presented to you at ALL LEVELS AND POINTS IN THE GAME, you ALWAYS know EXACTLY where you're supposed to go, do and recieve.</p><p>If you get lucky, or play a LOT the game does a pretty [Removed for Content] good job of making you look better than the other people who are not lucky or play a lot. (AKA, where EQ2 Has handcrafted, Legendary, Mastercrafted, Fabled, Myth...WoW has Crappy gear, and Good gear, EVERYONE IS SHOOTING FOR THE SAME THING)</p><p>The game's zone are SMALL, let's face it, there isn't aren't a lot of places to see in this game. And once you run through a dungeon 1 time, it gets old, and boring, since they are all 1/5 the size of EQ2s.</p><p>Again referring to the dungeons, there is 1 MAYBE 2 different dungeons to visit at any level tier. And and endgame there are just that amount of raid zones, and the raids are EXTREMELY boring after the first run. As opposed to EQ2's raids, where I laugh quite a bit, have fun, and walk out feeling good, every time.</p><p>In short, WoW seduces the younger crowd and those of us who aren't "so bright", with an easy and simple way to strive to be the best (the 1337est of them all). Like a console FPS, with it's simplified aiming system, reduced tactics, graphics, audio, and online play... WoW has short, easy to follow gameplay, with a clear "light at the end of the tunnel" that makes it seem that all your hard work will pay off in the end, when in reality..</p><p>It won't.</p><p>Obviously, due to the game's content, this is impossible, since no one will ever be better than the rest, it makes the hardcore and immature crowd keep playing, and wards away the smart, mature, and casual players, who like to have a good time and not spend their entire life worrying about how much better they are than everyone else, or playing their game like it's a "job."</p><p>Look at some of the less popular MMOs- EVE, EQ2, Vanguard(lol), hell maybe even CoH ( Although CoH is still very linear)</p><p>They are focused around playing the game, and enjoying the game, not PWNINATING!!11!!11ZOmOGM!1!11 the game. EVE and EQ2 in particular, EQ2 is not very challenging unless you challenge yourself. Bored of destroying all the dungeons? Take a group of 52-55 to BG and try to kill some stuff. In EVE, bored of mining all day? Buy a crappy ship and go kill some people, that are also in crappy ships! (BTW don't call me an EVE fanboi, I quit after the stupid Dev scandal, disgusted. Although I have the utmost respect for the concept/design team, for making such a great PvP game. The same as I respect the EQ2 devs for packing the game with such a huge ridiculously large amount of content.)</p><p>I'm not a fan of large posts, but to sum it all up....</p><p>WoW = A game for the people who need to be the best at everything they do, but have no actual thinking ability, skills, or gaming experience.</p><p>EQ2 = A game for the people who like to play the game, be the best that they can be, and learn new things, and make some friends while they do it.</p>

[interstellarmatter]

<p>WoW isn't dying but it's reached it's climax.  This is a good time for SOE for push EQ2 on the market.</p><p>To give you an example.  My old WoW server Skywall was very full at times.  So, they opened up free transfer to a brand new server called Arathor.  Now, in the past, servers would fill up within a couple of weeks after release.  So, a couple of friends of mine decided to take up the free transfer.  We've been over there for 2 months now.  It hasn't come off a low population status once.  Not even at peak times does it get medium.  It's pretty sad and we wish that we had never done the transfer.  Now we have to fork over $25 bucks to transfer our mains to another server.</p><p>With this in mind, it wouldn't take much to grab players from WoW.  You just have to make your product known.  Most WoW players who only play WoW and read WoW forums, only know EQ2 from the trash talk from ex-disenchanted EQ2 players.  This could be countered with better marketing.  Free trial CDs at Walmart and BestBuy.  There is still hope.  Don't let all these players go to AoC, LOTRO or something Dagger.</p>

[mellowknees72]

<p>Personally, I see one of the major differences between WoW and EQ2 is that WoW has more kids playing.  I think it's more appealing to a younger audience.</p><p>The second major difference has already been mentioned here: ADVERTISING.  I remember before EQ2 came out that there were beautiful ads that played as trailers in movie theaters.  Those ads had me going "oooh" and "aaah" as I contemplated purchasing my next computer so I could play this new, wonderous game...</p><p>And now...there are no ads anywhere that I've seen...not even in gaming mags.</p><p>I think it would be GREAT if Sony had a contest for players to create their own commercials/advertisements (similar to what Doritos did with its SuperBowl ad contest).  I'd happily break out FRAPS and make an EQ2 ad if there was a possibility of winning a year's subscription to the game, or a special in-game item, etc.  </p>

[Fing]

dag norway wrote: <blockquote><p>Many people who plays EQ2 or other online games got a RL or work can we say so they cant play up to 10 hours a day.</p></blockquote><p>Your thoughts have been posted to every MMO forum that I've belonged to.</p><p> It's the age old debate between casuals and raiders.</p><p>And the answer is, you can't make everyone happy.</p><p>In WoW, casuals complain because raider gear is so superior to casual gear.  How are you going to fix that?  You can't.</p>

[YeldarbSpiritbla]

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>WoW isn't dying but it's reached it's climax.  This is a good time for SOE for push EQ2 on the market.</p><p>To give you an example.  My old WoW server Skywall was very full at times.  So, they opened up free transfer to a brand new server called Arathor.  Now, in the past, servers would fill up within a couple of weeks after release.  So, a couple of friends of mine decided to take up the free transfer.  We've been over there for 2 months now.  It hasn't come off a low population status once.  Not even at peak times does it get medium.  It's pretty sad and we wish that we had never done the transfer.  Now we have to fork over $25 bucks to transfer our mains to another server.</p><p>With this in mind, it wouldn't take much to grab players from WoW.  You just have to make your product known.  Most WoW players who only play WoW and read WoW forums, only know EQ2 from the trash talk from ex-disenchanted EQ2 players.  This could be countered with better marketing.  Free trial CDs at Walmart and BestBuy.  There is still hope.  Don't let all these players go to AoC, LOTRO or something Dagger.</p></blockquote><p>I agree completely, WoW will be here 10-15 years easy, it's not going to die. It appeals to enough people, and others will get older and get interested in it and will still have new subscriptions coming in. Plus, they'll start stepping up the expansions, and you know most people have to "check out the new expansion" when it comes out. Also, there is a huge push for WoW in eastern countries where they pay per minute/hour to play, and the quick leveling of WoW is perfect for them. And don't forget the hackers and gold sellers, as long as they have "customers", there will be those subs. WoW isn't nearly as proactive on those subs as EQ2 is (I know, hard to believe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). Hackers are the worst with their 500% speed buffed gnomes running around. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I just hope that EQ2 can prove themselves to people who are tired of WoW and want something better before they start going to games that are coming out soon. LoTRO will pick up a lot, as it too has a large following because of the lore, and WAR will with a name brand as well. AoC is more of a niche game. SOE needs to get their game in front of those that are looking for an alternative. It may not pick up 2.5 million subs from WoW, but even a small percentage of those would be great. </p>

[sayitaintso]

WHAT? EQ2 is losing population? To other games? LOL right...There is nothing wrong with the population of the EQ2 servers, there are plenty of players to group with....We aren't losing people to games like WoW. WoW SUCKS and no one would go there...No one plays WoW...And I am sure that the other new games coming online next month...Conan and Lord of the Rings won't have any effect on EQ2 either...We live in a perfect little game word. Good customer service, no one cheats...And we even get in game ads and mail to help us enjoy our game expereince more!

[Jerr]

<p>The biggest problem with EQ2 IMO is the constant changes to gameplay.</p><p>Major combat changes, the crafting shaft job called LU#24, constant nerfage to classes people have spent a lot of time learning to play,......etc.</p><p>When EQ2 gains some stability and stops the major changes then maybe people wont get so [Removed for Content] off and leave.</p>

[Sebastien]

<p>I don't really agree that EQ2 requires larger blocks of time than WoW.  The game as it stands today is extremely solo friendly and I would argue its actually more casual than WoW.  The reason I say this is that in WoW the group composition needs to be fairly specific for most instances.. in EQ2 you can get away with much less than "ideal" and still have a good run.  There is more mixing and matching that can occur.</p><p>As far as raids / raid progression I would just say WoW does a much better job in that arena.  The raids are more polished, more sophisticated imo in the strategies involved, and they are extremely rewarding.  Actually that is my biggest gripe with WoW.  I ultimately found it to be very one dimension, far too gear driven, and ultimate you can do one of three things: raid, reputation grind, or quit.</p><p>I would suggest the biggest reason WoW is more attractive is that it is simply put a vastly more polished product than EQ2.  I think EQ2 is the better *game* in terms of game design.  I think EQ2 has vital features like mentoring and alternate advancement that blow WoW out of the water.  But most gamers are not so hardcore as to get into all the nuance of the game, as we forum-goers often do.  So the aspect of the game they have the most contact with is just its immediate look and feel, and overall level of polish.  WoW is very much a finished product.  EQ2 is an excellent game but its quite unrefined in many areas, and suffers from so many bugs in so many areas, most not game stopping by any means but they are still there, that overall it just doesn't have that same final presentation that WoW offers.</p>

[liveja]

Stinkii@Guk wrote: <blockquote>There is nothing wrong with the population of the EQ2 servers, there are plenty of players to group with. </blockquote>Ah, I see that you are, occasionally, capable of telling the truth.

[TheSource123]

Sebastien@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><p>I don't really agree that EQ2 requires larger blocks of time than WoW.  The game as it stands today is extremely solo friendly and I would argue its actually more casual than WoW.  The reason I say this is that in WoW the group composition needs to be fairly specific for most instances.. in EQ2 you can get away with much less than "ideal" and still have a good run.  There is more mixing and matching that can occur.</p><p>As far as raids / raid progression I would just say WoW does a much better job in that arena.  The raids are more polished, more sophisticated imo in the strategies involved, and they are extremely rewarding.  Actually that is my biggest gripe with WoW.  I ultimately found it to be very one dimension, far too gear driven, and ultimate you can do one of three things: raid, reputation grind, or quit.</p><p>I would suggest the biggest reason WoW is more attractive is that it is simply put a vastly more polished product than EQ2.  I think EQ2 is the better *game* in terms of game design.  I think EQ2 has vital features like mentoring and alternate advancement that blow WoW out of the water.  But most gamers are not so hardcore as to get into all the nuance of the game, as we forum-goers often do.  So the aspect of the game they have the most contact with is just its immediate look and feel, and overall level of polish.  WoW is very much a finished product.  EQ2 is an excellent game but its quite unrefined in many areas, and suffers from so many bugs in so many areas, most not game stopping by any means but they are still there, that overall it just doesn't have that same final presentation that WoW offers.</p></blockquote><p>This hits the nail on the head in a short and quick manner.</p><p>WoW is extremely small and linear as far as MMOs go. However, it's extremely small and simple form allows almost every aspect of it to be polished as much as possible.</p><p>You're options may be nonexistant, but everything you do always "works". For instance, the graphics on a whole, suck. However the art design team only has a few zones to work with, and can then focus more on everything, like armor, zones, and creatures. So even though the graphics engine is a peice of crap, the game still looks sub-par. This combined with how the game forces you down a given path, but never allowing you to finish everything (which is odd since there really isn't anything fun to do) is the key reason for WoW having so many subscribers. It's because the game is so small, linear, simple, and overall well polished.</p><p>As soon as people stop wanting to "beat" everyone else, the sooner they will stop playing a game that tells you exactly what to do to accomplish that goal.</p>

[Cyner]

I personally left WoW after playing it for over a year.  The reason?  WoW was too simple.  It only had one aspect.  You do instances to get better loot, and the bad part, the instances were horrible and had things so stupid and random that it just made you wonder.  The PvP in WoW was so imbalanced that it made you gag yourself each and every time you left the arena.  The reason I came here was because there is no PvP on my server and thats one aspect of a MMO that I never want to see again.  The dungeons here are breathtaking and I like that.  This game just feels epic to me, unlike WoW which has turned more into a Sci-Fi game than a fantasy. 

[Frenzied]

<cite>YeldarbSpiritblade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Who is losing to who now? Thanks to the incredible flop that "polished" TBC was, WoW is now merging servers, and the American subscriptions are going DOWN. Hopefully EQ2 will pick up a bunch of those people before Age of Conan, LoTRO, and others get them.</p><p>BTW LoTRO makes WoW look like a grown up game, if that is at all possible...</p></blockquote>I don't know where you got that info but WOW is not merging servers.They allow people to transfer from server to server.Also the TBC has sold around 4 mill copies so I hardly consider that a flop.To get 50% of your userbase buying an xpac is very good when you consider that many of the subs are in China and the xpac has yet to release there.All the reviews I've read give TBC a 9 or better,the new issue of Game Informer gave it a 9.75! I've played both games and like both for different reasons,I just don't like when people find that they must make things up to make another game look better.If you're gonna bash a game atleast know the facts.

[Denubisdjinn]

<p>WOW after 60-70 is the same thing as this game.  It becomes a job having to spend 5+ hours a day raiding instances repeatedly.  The lower levels can be fun but once you reach max level you do the same thing as here.  If you don't raid you never have access to the top armor & weapons.  </p><p> You could craft 24/7...  or pvp if you wanted to but even that gets extremely boring.</p>

[Decad]

<p>Hmm, of everyone that I know who plays games, those that typically have played MMORPGs in the past are NOT playing WOW now. Although a lot of them, including myself have played it.</p><p>Of those people that I know who plays games, and whom typically didn't play MMORPGs in the past, all of them are playing WOW.</p><p>That is onne aspect of WOW that I don't think get's enough attention. WOW has and still is bringing more and more people into the MMORPG market that would have never played one in the past.</p>

[Misiakpisiak]

<p>As a hardcore casual with 'only' two mains and a host of alts, and as a former WoW player, I have to say that this thread should be encased in gold-pressed latinum and presented to The Management. The way to win more players is to increase your marketing spend and move it in a direction away from the ingrained image of the EQ player as a crusty old fart out of touch with such hipness as cartoon graphics and collectible card games etc.</p><p>Also, again to reiterate what's already been said over 4 pages, WoW is absolutely a once-through-and-you're-done grind-fest, nowhere near as soloable or casual-friendly as EQ2. EQ2's strength in this regard is that when it expands, it doesn't only expand upwards- for the high-end players- it expands *sideways*, creating new opportunities for soloists in nearly every zone. I also agree that where WoW has us beat completely is in itemisation and graphical variety equipment-wise. Hopefully the new skeletal jobbies will go some way to fixing this.</p><p>What's more interesting to me than the 'EQ2 vs WoW' debate right now, is 'EQ1 vs Everything Else'. I bought the Titanium edition out of curiosity last week, and I've only just gotten out of the tutorial zone (Gloomingdeep Mine). Holy [Removed for Content], there's a hard game! Every second spent is a tooth-and-nail fight for survival. And that's just the interface and control scheme! <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Femke]

'Why do games as Lineage lose people to Everquest II Why do games as WoW lose people to Everquest II... *wanders off because she is afraid to said have something stupid*

[LadyGrelka]

I also think part of the pull is that you buy the game and there is not monthly fee like in EQ2.  most people don't want to pay a monthly free or can't afford it especially if they is more then one person in the house that you want to play the game with you. But I think because of that they don't try to make it a quality game.  What I mean is the graphics are IMO horrid.  I mean EQ2 characters don't look as good as I think they could but they do look decent.  But I don't really think graphics have much to do with it. 

[Kenrod]

<cite>LadyGrelka wrote:</cite><blockquote>I also think part of the pull is that you buy the game and there is not monthly fee like in EQ2.  </blockquote>If you're referring to WoW, which I think you are, there is a monthly fee to play, the same price as EQ2.

[Myedved]

[Removed for Content] OP You could fit that into 3 paragraphs please. Skipping until someone provides a 'listos' version.

[SignumX]

Sigh the EQ2 community sure loves their rose colored glasses, look i like the game, more then WoW obviously but there are problems, alot of problems. Fact of the matter is if eq2 suddenly dissapeared more then half of you would go to WoW. I dunno if the constant mod removing of any topic hat would shed eq2 in a bad light has neuteured the fan base or what but i havent seen this type of close-minded, nothing is wrong attitude anywhere else on the internet.

[RipFlex]

<p>You people have to realize these points why WoW more successful</p><p>1. WOW is BLIZZARD - anything that Blizzard makes seems to be solid - they just have a good reputation and good track Record.  Sony doesn't.</p><p>2. WOW is from elements of Warcraft where MILLIONS of people as a player base already LOVE came to play, more so than EQ1 subscribers.  The Warcraft franchise sold MILLIONS... it's a good start for WOW.</p><p>3. MARKETING, I mean WOW has that TV commercial that's the spoof off from Office Space to promote their product, there's 100s of WOW boxes and displayers in any Gaming store that you can trip over.  I saw an ad for EQ2 in umm Star Wars Magazine and Maximum PC... that's it.</p><p>For me once LOTR is in Retail realease I'm journying over there because well it's LOTR !!! And the service is NOT SOE.  Need I say more?</p><p>Mechaniclly EQ2 gave me everything I liked in a balanced MMO but it's been 3 years and (3-5) years about my attention span for the average MMO.... but that's just me.  I'm happy it kepted me for that long...</p>

[steelbadger]

<cite>SignumX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sigh the EQ2 community sure loves their rose colored glasses, look i like the game, more then WoW obviously but there are problems, alot of problems. Fact of the matter is if eq2 suddenly dissapeared more then half of you would go to WoW. I dunno if the constant mod removing of any topic hat would shed eq2 in a bad light has neuteured the fan base or what but i havent seen this type of close-minded, nothing is wrong attitude anywhere else on the internet.</blockquote>Hmmm, interesting point, but the problem with it is that it is entirely opinion. I could equally say that some people always go around looking for problems, never appreciating what is good about somthing.  I have played a few MMO's before EQ2, and I enjoyed all of them, in their way.  But none of them have kept me amused for as long as EQ2.  A few months, usually, then you're done, you've done everything, seen everything, levelled up a ton of alts. EQ2 I have played for more than a year, it is the only game that I have played, exhaustively, for more than 12 months, without getting bored. Different strokes for different folks, some people like EQ2, some people like WoW. EQ2 is its own game, I play EQ2 so that I can play EQ2, not so that I can play a WoW wannabe.  If I wanted to play WoW I'd play WoW, not EQ2. And it has been an age since I encountered a bug that infringed on my enjoyment in any way. Strange as it may seem I enjoy this game because I have fun.  Not because SOE are using mind-control devices, and lasers, and secret underground lairs. My only fault with the game as it is?  The samey-ness of the armour.  I can live with small balancing issues, they don't even figure in my thinking while I play.

[PorcupineTr]

Most people have a bad impression of EQ2 because of the state of the game at launch but its improved greatly. I've resubbed to this game a few times and each time I lost interest after a week. My last resub was a few days ago and I'm hooked. I did play a lot of WoW and this is definitely a refreshing change. From the graphics to the battle animations, this is definitely a solid game and its not the quality of the game to blame. Blizzard is simply a blockbuster company, Warcraft 1-3 were huge in the RTS market, as was the Diablo series for hack-n-slash RPGs. Simply put, Blizzard has a large following and they realized their potential to breakthrough the MMORPG market as evidenced by their subscription numbers. Diablo 2 (Battle.net) consumed much of my life in middle and high school. Regardless, I like EQ2 better. Why? First off, I've had no problems leveling fast, and I started from ground up. I took time to do some harvesting and I've been perhaps very lucky finding rares. The quests in EQ2 are superior, I suspect every person will have leveled up in a different way. You can choose to focus on questing (and earning AA) or grinding through levels solo -- or with a group. Heck, if you get tired of leveling go ahead and find a PVP group. Solo PVP is a different monster, you're gonna need good gear to be competitive but the difference is leveled with grouping. Don't forget that those twinks also probably have a better understanding of their classes' PVP ability and equipment does play a role but not the only one. WoW, by contrast, everyone blasts through the same area sequentially, and your hand is held the entire way. If you're looking for something a little more involving and open-ended in your progression then go for EQ2. If you just want to grind through the game, then yes you will probably get bored. Do some questing and build up your AA, work your harvesting, maybe even pickup a trade skill. You could even play the AH and buy/sell low and get rich early on. True, this isn't quite as open as Ultima Online but I doubt we'll see a masterpiece MMORPG like that for a long time to come.

[nam]

<p>I played EQ2 for a couple of months at launch, then got lured to WoW by some friends, and ended up staying there for almost a year and a half. Made a couple of 60s, did the raiding thing, got bored and came back to EQ2. Been very happy with this game since I returned and have a level 70 and 62 currently here.</p><p> But I tend to get bored with the same game over a long period no matter how good it is. Im contemplating rerolling on WoW to experience the new races and the expansion, which apparently offers a lot of small group dungeons and small 10-25 man raids.</p><p>/shrug. Both games are pretty darn good imo. They are simply different flavors on the same thing--the MMO experience. I like them both. Of the two I think EQ2 offers a lot more content. But then, I havent experienced the BC expansion in WoW yet. This whole 'my game is better than your game' is childish. Different strokes for different folks.</p>

[Chirpaa]

<cite>namah wrote:</cite><blockquote>/shrug. Both games are pretty darn good imo. They are simply different flavors on the same thing--the MMO experience. I like them both. Of the two I think EQ2 offers a lot more content. But then, I havent experienced the BC expansion in WoW yet. This whole 'my game is better than your game' is childish. Different strokes for different folks.</blockquote><p> Well said!!  Couldn't agree more.</p><p>I'd play them both if I had the time.  If I had the time, I'd add about a half dozen MMO's onto my play list.  Being that I don't...I went for the option that seems to have the greatest variety of things to do and content, which fits my particular style of play to the 'T'.</p>

[Vonotar]

<cite>Jerril wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The biggest problem with EQ2 IMO is the constant changes to gameplay.</p><p>Major combat changes, the crafting shaft job called LU#24, constant nerfage to classes people have spent a lot of time learning to play,......etc.</p><p>When EQ2 gains some stability and stops the major changes then maybe people wont get so [Removed for Content] off and leave.</p></blockquote>I agree, the problems can be summed up in three ways: <b>1. Cost</b> SoE put out a new expansion which improves the game at all levels (therefore pretty much making it a need, rather than an optional extra for those with sub-level 50 characters).  While I love EoF, the price tag was higher than previous expansions. SoE are also increasing the cost of Station Access which at present is the only way of getting additional character slots other than buying a second account.  Altaholics with sub-level 50 characters are hit twice in the pocket by these costs. Solution: Freeze existing regular account prices (including the $143.99 for annual subscription) and give all accounts with more than 6 characters the ability to move the extra characters to a second account/different server for free (not $50 each).  Customers with only EQ2 stay loyal and continue to provide a healthy income while the doubling of accounts will improve 'subscriber' numbers. <b>2. Marketing</b> I see WoW on TV, I see WoW in the Cinema, I see WoW in my local Game/GameStation/Virgin Megastore/Chips etc.  If I'm very very lucky I might see the odd DoF still sat in the bargain basement section, but certainly no EoF packages.  My friends who I talked into joining EQ2 had to install from my CD's and then get a "Full Box CD Key" from websites like onlinecdkey.com.  There is definitely a shortage of EoF boxes as I've lost count of the number of times my mid 20's tank has invited somebody to a group who turns out to be an ex-WoW player with DoF (i.e. can't use the Spires to get from CL to Ant). Solution: Churn out some more EoF boxes and try and ensure some of them actually leave North America and make it to other continents.  I like the idea of player made Ad's, this would be an impressive pull when other MMO's are showing Cut-Scene type movies and no in-game footage (remember to place the words "Actual game graphics" at the bottom), but these need to appear somewhere other than YouTube where the masses will see them. <b>3. 'Tinkering'</b> No not the new tradeskill, just SoE's general attitude of 'if it ain't broke, change it'.  This is set to get worse as tentative talks are already going on regarding merging Armourer with Weaponsmith and Woodworker with Carpenter, for no reason other than a quick fix to a perception that they don't have enough to do verses the other tradeskills.  Where this leaves the idea of three tradeskill archtypes (Outfitter, Craftsman, Scholar) each leading to three further tradeskills, I don't know.  This sort of change can radically affect our characters in the game, throwing out any goals or plans that we may have had for them, or worse making them feel obsolete (how would you feel to level a 70 armourer and 70 weaponsmith, only to end up with TWO 70 blacksmiths). In the meanwhile non-character affecting areas like the Guild Recruitment Tool, Guild Websites, even EQ2Players are left incomplete and full of bugs.  Numerous threads have been made regarding the GRT's habit of always showing the same 15-20 guilds and never letting anybody else get a look in.  I have no level 70 characters, so why do I see guilds that only want level 70's?.  EQ2Players really takes the biscuit, many text labels and stats do not appear unless you manually insert "/en" (for ENglish) into the web address (i.e.  eq2players.station.sony.com/en).  This /en doesn't stick either, so if you search for another player you lose the text labels again.  Oh and really useful website/community information is charged at a premium as part of the Station Access... Solution: Stop making class/tradeskill changes for the sake of it and work on improving the interface more.  The upcoming Macro changes are a good example of good development.  Oh and give the website department a kick up the rear too, EQ2Players should be either fixed or pulled, we'll all fed up at guessing what "$characterClass.name" is supposed to be from the little graphics.