Leadership of raiding guilds

[Kinvore]

For the most part I have thoroughly enjoyed high end raiding in EQ2.  I like the loot and the sense of comraderie of lots of people working together toward a challenging common goal.  However I do have one question: is there such thing as a raiding guild that doesn't have absolute jerks as leaders? You guys know what I'm talking about.  Raid and/or guild leaders who abuse, insult, and belittle others and everyone else just putting up with it because they think they have to.  Personally I don't take that kind of crap outside of EQ and I'm certainly not going to take it in a game. It's just not worth taking for a digital trinket.  No thanks, I'd rather not be uber if that's the case. So please, tell me of any successful T7 raiding guilds that don't have leaders who abuse their raiders, I'd really like to know if they exist.  It's not that I've been in a lot of them, but they seem to be the common theme around here. I understand the need for strong leadership, but you can be strong without being a jerk.  Try it sometime, you'll actually start having fun again.  It is, after all, supposed to be a game.

[Dwightdee]

If you really want to be in a hardcore guild you're going to have to put more effort into looking if you want ones that arent run by jerks. But they are out there. Thats not to say hardcore ppl are all jerks, but you gotta factor in that the more hardcore guilds are going to have a lot more people in them that take the game very seriously(anectdotal counter response need not bother), that just comes with the territory. I was an officer in a raiding guild in eq1 that eventually move to WoW for about 2 years, got tired of the raid game and havent looked back sense. If you have a low tolerance for jerks/mooks then you might be better served going to a family raiding guild or somesuch. I met a lot of cool people in my raid days in that guild, some of them IRL too, but you just arent going to be able to avoid the depressing number of jerks that infect the raid game in mmorpgs, unless you get really lucky and find the holy grail of guilds that is a hardcore raiding guild free from infestation by wankers <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And when you find that one, don't let it go. Good luck in your search.

[Sebastien]

Dwightdee@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote>If you have a low tolerance for jerks/mooks then you might be better served going to a family raiding guild or somesuch. </blockquote><p>Family-styled guilds for the win. =)</p><p>When I lead SoH into a light raiding career in WoW, we did so without DKP, without drama, and with people having fun and laughs, not being yelled at.  Then again I don't invite morons or jerks into my guild, so I suppose I should never have a need to yell at a member. =)</p><p>There are great guilds that raid often.  But there are also a lot of guild formed solely to allow raids to take place.  There's a big difference between those two things.  In the second case, the guild leader is typically recruiting solely with stats/class/playtime in mind, not paying adequate attention to things like personality fit, behavior, player skill.. and the result is the typical "raiding guild".  Frankly I don't know how anyone tolerates being in them..</p>

[Cathars]

The process of learning encounters and developing your approach to them can't be done unless you can call people out on their mistakes.  Following pre-established, canned strats is one thing, but if you're the type that likes to be on the leading edge and work things out on your own then that simply cannot be done if your raid force can't take direct criticism.  Public insult is over the line though and whomever it is should consider stepping out of the raid leader role and into raid consultant.

[Novusod]

If you think your guild leader is a jerk then go to youtube and watch the "WoW raider loses his mind" clip. I am not going to hot link it because it has some cursing in it. I love that clip because it makes fun of WoW and jerk raid leaders. Overall I think there is a broad spectrum of guild types out there. Some are led by stark raving mad men but there are also some gems out there and everything in between. If you are unhappy with your current guild than find one that better suits your personality.

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<p>Yeah... believe me I can sympathise with any raid leader who loses their temper after seeing the same person make the same stupid mistakes wiping the raid repeatedly. Much as I can appreciate their frustration with people (usually DPS classes) who randomly afk under the assumption nobody will notice.</p><p>The strong without being a jerk thing - well yes you can be, but it's equally insulting to see people going at things half [Removed for Content] when you have to put 100% into it night after night. It's the selfishness more than anything - if every DPS'er slacked and did zonewide 200dps nothing would ever get cleared. Much as if every healer went ninja afk you'd wipe. Yet there are usually some people who consistently let 23 others pick up their slack. Some people who will, without fail, wipe the raid in somewhere like MMIS where ninja afk'ing and being unable to follow quickly is harder to get away with. Yes, it's just a game, but many people seem to expect someone to organise everything so they can log on and instantly slot into a raid and get uber l3wtz, whilst contributing very little in return. I guess I'm lucky that my current guild has both great leaders and no slackers; but the majority of guilds I've seen do.</p><p>The WoW video is hilarious though, and I don't think I've ever met a raid leader like that lol.</p>

[Korpo]

I was in Chaotic Legion (Kithicor) for a good while, before I switched jobs and couldn't make raid times anymore. They're a bunch of great guys, I definitely wouldn't call them "jerks". It depends on your tolerance for jerkiness though. As with everything in life, you're going to be dealing with a lot of different people, and those people have different personalities. What one person sees as joking and having fun in a game could be construed as abuse, insult, and belittling by someone else. If you're one of those thin skinned people that gets offended at the drop of a hat, you'll have a tough time finding a group that's worth it for you, let alone a guild.

[liveja]

<cite>Kinvore wrote:</cite><blockquote>However I do have one question: is there such thing as a raiding guild that doesn't have absolute jerks as leaders? </blockquote><p>Yea, Imperium, on Mistmoore. I'm not a member; I'm simply the Guest Swashy they commonly ask to go along with them.</p><p>They are some of the nicest, friendliest people I've met online, & have been very, very generous to a lowly guest like me; I even got awarded a Fabled item, the very first time I ever did anything with them, & I've picked up 3 more fabled items since then.</p><p><3 Imperium! </p>

[KBern]

<p>It is all relative and what you think of a jerk.</p><p>The raid leader is responsible for "cat herding" in many cases.  They are trying to keep 23 other people moving towards a goal.  When you have some screw ups by the same people over and over, they will and should get angry.</p><p>They are trying to keep everyone happy, have the pressure of maintaing the flow of the raid, and trying to correct the people who do things wrong.</p><p>Patience goes a long way, but sometimes a tough hand is needed to keep people focused.  If you ask nicely for something to be done 5x, and the same mistakes are being made, when it is ok to blow up?  Would it be better to just kick the person from the raid and give them kudos for being a [Removed for Content], or call out the [Removed for Content], make it clear they are ruining 23 other peoples play time, and to tell them to suck it up or move on?</p><p>You could also ask the question "if certain people dont respect the time of others, and can never be focused, go afk all the time, hold up the raid, and are basically a detriment, why do they raid?"</p><p>Now dont get me wrong and think I am saying no raid guilds have jerky leaders, many do, and the only sense of authority some of these people have is in game so they may stretch the limits of right and wrong sometime.</p>

[Poetelia]

Sebastien@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><p>There are great guilds that raid often.  But there are also a lot of guild formed solely to allow raids to take place.  There's a big difference between those two things.  In the second case, the guild leader is typically recruiting solely with stats/class/playtime in mind, not paying adequate attention to things like personality fit, behavior, player skill.. and the result is the typical "raiding guild".  Frankly I don't know how anyone tolerates being in them..</p></blockquote><p>The problem is that, for good or bad, this game is definately big guild oriented, meaning that all end game, all grand finale scenarios and all high end equipment come from raids of diverse difficulty. While I dont find it impossible for your typical friendly guild to tackle them, its obvious that your typical military-like organized big guild will always have the upper hand. Why people tolerates being in them? Well, some people are not lucky enough to find a friendly guild capable of even help them obtain their typical HQ consistently, much less taking them through the end game.</p><p>Ive passed through that in EQ1 and like you, never again. If I cant have the uberest equipment or I cant see the last mob, well too bad. Im patient. Someday someone will realize the potential in designing a good and challenging group oriented game. Until then, I will keep on playing for fun with my friends. In RL Im lucky to be my own boss and my job is demanding enough. I dont need to find myself a new boss in the virtual world or strict work hours.</p><p>I was skipping thru this new game forums a while back and saw a guild advertising for members on the lines of: you are expected to get to max lvl as soon as possible. The goal of the guild wont be helping with quests or grouping, but move to 50 with the utmost haste to raid the end game 4 days a week. Attendance mandatory. Sincerely... if I were one of the developers I would take that as a personal insult<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. The ultimate success of the guild will have to do with their overall capability which remains to be seen, but I can bet they will have a healthy starting population, believe or not.</p><p>As I said, for good or bad, right now we can see succesful guilds advertising with the ton of requisites the candidate has to have just to be considered into joining. Im thinking now on a certain very succesful guild on a very populated server that after stating all the requisites you have to fill to join them, they disdainfully claim: "if you dont, you are useless for (guild name here)". That says a lot. As far as Im concerned, this game is played by individuals, individuals that should form teams to better confront the dangers of the game and to experience a sense of camaraderie, but individuals at last. The guilds must be a tool at the person's service to achieve the end of beating the game. Sometimes, the design and the development of the games makes things the other way around. We should fight against the idea of people being the tools of the guilds. In that setting guilds would be the actual stars and we would fight to apply to them. Thats, imho, the real mistake, where games begin to go wrong.</p><p>Since my days at EQ1, I try to turn around the cake... if the guild is like that, it's the guild the one that is useless for me and my gaming experience. And I advise you to do the same.</p><p>Poetelia Roseknight</p><p>Paladin of Qeynos</p>

[Bawang]

<cite>Catharsis wrote:</cite><blockquote>The process of learning encounters and developing your approach to them can't be done unless you can call people out on their mistakes. </blockquote><p>I think most (mentally healthy) people don't mind having their mistakes called.  I dont' think that's what the OP is referring to at all.  There are simple too many guild leaders who have fantasies of being a petty tyrant and being a guild leader is how they achieve their fantasy.  The problem of EQ2 is having so many desireable benefits (such as horses) be tied into guild level.  If you need a guild level 60 to get your mount you might have to put up with such a jerk for a while to get it.</p><p> If guild level was removed as a requirement for such things then you'd have a lot more choices about guilds to move to in order to escape your little dictator.</p>

[YummiOger]

<p>I am in a raid guild that raids 6 days a week. pretty heavily IMO. we do define ourselves as a Raid Guild. Im a member only but our leadership i must admit are Very High Quality Peeps. iv never heard an outburst (even after many embaressing moments) from a Leader on Vent or in guild chat. </p><p>NOT saying that they have not handed down a unpopular command dicission from time to time. It has even gotten heated on the boards/ chat from time to time. but ultimatly they strive for stability in the guild. They will simply stop argueing .. " We are sorry u feel that way, but it is for the best in our opinion for this guild. Thanks" thats as far as it gets. which is the way its spose to work IMO. </p><p>If u dont like it. Hit the Disband Button. there are plenty of guilds out there. So far i have seen NO reason to do this in my current guild .. im kinda lucky i think to be honest.....</p>

[Ravaan]

<cite>Bawang wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Catharsis wrote:</cite><blockquote>The process of learning encounters and developing your approach to them can't be done unless you can call people out on their mistakes. </blockquote><p>I think most (mentally healthy) people don't mind having their mistakes called.  I dont' think that's what the OP is referring to at all.  There are simple too many guild leaders who have fantasies of being a petty tyrant and being a guild leader is how they achieve their fantasy.  The problem of EQ2 is having so many desireable benefits (such as horses) be tied into guild level.  If you need a guild level 60 to get your mount you might have to put up with such a jerk for a while to get it.</p><p> If guild level was removed as a requirement for such things then you'd have a lot more choices about guilds to move to in order to escape your little dictator.</p></blockquote><p> exactly, I don't mind if someone says "watch the AOE next time i had the other mobs mezzed" or whatever ... i can understand and appreciate that.</p><p>however when people say "OMG [I cannot control my vocabulary] HEAL FASTER!!!" or "DAMMIT HEAL ME" ... that makes me want to leave a raid/group situation. especially when im nearly out of mana from doing just that.</p>

[YeldarbSpiritbla]

<p><a href="http://www.dracosargent.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.dracosargent.com</a></p><p>We're a pretty high profile raiding guild and our leaders are awesome.</p>

[Kinvore]

Thanks for your input thus far.  I guess I should have made something clear. I'm not talking about correcting mistakes and taking criticism.  If I'm doing something wrong and I don't realize it I WANT to be told.  Chances are I won't make the same mistake twice. If someone repeatedly refuses to listen then I think the guild leader and/or officers need to ask themselves if that person should remain in the guild, or at least if they should bring them along on raids.  I say if you can't follow orders then you have no business being in a raiding guild. Yes I understand how patience can be stretched, but my experiences so far have been with leaders who seem to LOOK for a reason to blow up, who delight in belittling others and therefore making themselves feel like big shots.  I'm no one's punching bag. Yes family guilds are nice but I don't know of too many that can handle the high end game.  Most of them still find Labs challenging.  Don't get me wrong, I love Labs but there's so much more out there and only the truly dedicated raiding guilds seem capable of taking those other zones on. But like I said if the only way of owning those zones is by putting up with some snotty jerk then I'd rather not bother.  Nobody, and I mean nobody, talks to me that way outside of the game (at least not to my face hehe).  I'm not going to take it in a game either, I don't care if it's the greatest guild in all servers that can take out Woushi every week.  I'd rather hang out in the Labs if that's my choice.

[KBern]

<p>Well I can definatly tell you not every raiding guild is run by some 16-18 year old pimply kid with an inferiority complex.</p><p>Sadly you just have to luck out and find the one that fits you.  Some of the best raiding guilds are made up of a certain age group in a lot of situations simply because of logistics. </p><p>If you are in high school or college, unemployed or a flexible part time job, you have a lot more time to raid.  If your guild is made up of mostly 25 and up, most have full time jobs, family obligations, etc....so the amount of time that can realistically be spent raiding is not as much as some others.</p><p>This is not a knock to either type of player, just a simple fact in the majority of cases.</p><p>Our guild is lucky enough to be a fairly solid raid guild.  We dont do contesteds because we just dont have the time or the people always on to get to them fast enough.  We have an avg age of probably high 20's, low 30's.  Many married couples and solid 30 people or so who raid.  We raid 3 times a week with a strict start and end schedule to accomodate the working schedules and family life schedules most of us have.</p><p>We all still blow up at times in tight situations, just due to human reaction and stress during some encounters, but luckily from the guild leaders to the newer members, we have a pretty tight, well behaved group.</p><p>If you have issues with your present guild, maybe put a post up on your server forum what exactly you are looking for, you may luck out and have one find you.</p>

[Thunderthyze]

<p>To paraphrase Pride and Prejudice:</p><p>"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a raider in possession of a hardcore guild must be in want of a personality."</p><p>I'm not taking a pop at hardcore raiders here but there IS a perception amongst the mainstream players that they do, by and large, have a bit of an attitude about them. Don't accept my word for it...look at the number of threads that end up slagfests between raiders and more casual players. Raider see themselves as the "uber l33t" of the game. They believe that the game should centre around end game content and that you must be a failure if you are level 70 and have no fabled gear. True, if you want to raid you need the gear....but if you have little interest in raiding then what is the point in kitting yourself out in fabled armour? Experience is a far more powerful weapon than haxxor armour.</p><p>Group with a raider (and there ARE some very nice examples out there I grant you) and you will probably find they will want to take over. Ignore the fact that they probably have far less experience of the zone because they spend most of their time raiding high end instances. They have an ATTITUDE!</p><p>THEREFORE......in order to keep this group of egomaniacs inline is there ANY choice but for the raid guilds to be draconian dictatorships?</p>

[liveja]

Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote><p>Experience is a far more powerful weapon than haxxor armour.</p></blockquote><p>True, but blast it all, I look *<b>good</b>* in my haxxor armor, & of course, if you can't look GOOD doing something, it's not worth doing.</p><p><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>That's a joke, BTW, I agree with you pretty much completely. </p>

[Kallista70]

I am raid leader for a large, "family/casual" guild on the Everfrost server, that somewhat paradoxically also regularly raids.  Labs is on farm status, we are currently working to down Tarinax (we have an effective strat for the bony guy, just need to keep at it), and we are also starting to consider some EoF content.  We raid anywhere from 1-3 times a week, depending on everyone's schedule, including my own.  Sunday evenings are the definite, anything else is a bonus.  I've been in my job as RL for almost a year now, and it's been a real challenge, to work in a less structured environment and yet have successful raids.  I *can't* yell at people--Campaign of Light operates in a fairly easy-going atmosphere, and I think if I started taking folks to task they wouldn't know what to do, lol.  I'm just diligent about repeating instructions until I'm blue in the face, taking a lot of deep breaths, and as a result over time most of our raid force has learned to not afk unexpectedly, to joust AOEs, to assist properly (although that's always a struggle dangit), and follow directions. Our guild leader, who is also our MT, has a shorter fuse than I do and has lost his temper a couple times (and I've done it in private for sure), but neither of us has ever yelled at any specific individual; generally we just try to suck it up and move on.   Someone said earlier in this thread that some people just expect to show up, do a half-[Removed for Content] job, get their loot and be done.  In more hardcore guilds, a person could get kicked for that, but in mine, there is a concerted effort to bring everyone to the same level.  It requires a boatload of patience, but I'm really proud of where we are now, and my guildmates who have worked so hard to get us there. This was a long-winded way of saying that yes, you can successfully raid without an [Removed for Content] leading the way.  At least in a semi-raiding guild.  But you may need some Xanax along the way. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 

[Faelgalad]

<p>A wise general of ancient times said once. </p><p>"If your soldier fear you, they can tear down the walls of a city. If the respect you as an leader, they will tear down all walls in the world". </p><p>(Guess it was Sun Zi)</p><p>In my observation, leading a raid, many raid leader have not much experience with leading people from their real world. </p><p>Then the increased difficulty, that the other people are not before you in real person. </p><p>Beeing in responsibility in a club, political party, job or something like this makes you (in a good case) more tolerant and understanding the different attitudes, and you get a way, way more patience <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Some leader I've met, thought that game knowledge justified their position as the leader. </p><p>In my Opinion, that is second. Knowledge can be bought in by some passionate game tactician. Organising, communication is the main job, beeing an example for your people. If you don't act, like you demand from them, you cannot expect respect.  </p><p>Many people who lead for the first time are lured by power, and fear critique or sharing responsibilities to others. </p><p>Humor is important, for yourself and others. It's a game, don't take it to seriously, otherwise you loose flexibilty in your mind. </p><p>Don't be the single rock in the wide ocean, withstanding the weather. Share with those that are competent. </p><p>For the inclined, some old military classics can be inspirational. </p><p>- Sun Zu, The Art of War</p><p>- Machiavelli, Il Principes</p><p>- von Clausewitz</p><p>- any book about guiding people and how to preserve your sanity <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>For Protokoll, I'am guiding "Mondblut" the second Raidcom in my guild (yes we are an bigger guild *g*), Innovation server. A hotpot from seasoned veterans and fresh recruits. Working our way up with different ideas and with many people that have quiet much to do in their real life. Our Guild leaders and the other raidcom leader are people who advice me, as my two brave tanks. </p>

[YeldarbSpiritbla]

Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote><p>To paraphrase Pride and Prejudice:</p><p>"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a raider in possession of a hardcore guild must be in want of a personality."</p><p>I'm not taking a pop at hardcore raiders here but there IS a perception amongst the mainstream players that they do, by and large, have a bit of an attitude about them. Don't accept my word for it...look at the number of threads that end up slagfests between raiders and more casual players. Raider see themselves as the "uber l33t" of the game. They believe that the game should centre around end game content and that you must be a failure if you are level 70 and have no fabled gear. True, if you want to raid you need the gear....but if you have little interest in raiding then what is the point in kitting yourself out in fabled armour? Experience is a far more powerful weapon than haxxor armour.</p><p>Group with a raider (and there ARE some very nice examples out there I grant you) and you will probably find they will want to take over. Ignore the fact that they probably have far less experience of the zone because they spend most of their time raiding high end instances. They have an ATTITUDE!</p><p>THEREFORE......in order to keep this group of egomaniacs inline is there ANY choice but for the raid guilds to be draconian dictatorships?</p></blockquote><p>This goes both ways. Usually, you can tell the "tone" of a raiding guild by watching 60-69 and 70 chat. If the members of some raiding guild is filling the chat with spam and garbage, you're probably best to stay clear of them. But I have seen the same from non-raiders as well. I have seen non-raiders with the "you're just wasting my time" attitude and quit groups in the middle, or during an instance. </p><p>While non-raiders get upset, or go off on a couple deaths, we've died 20-30 times to one encounter. It's not that big a deal to most of us. And yes, there are those that get mad and say you're all newbs and shouldn't be playing and stomp off like little kids. </p><p>As far as experience, how do you think we get to high level raids? We sure don't get experience from raids. In fact, we'll usually come out of a raid (not on farm status) with debt. Our guild is made of of 20's, 30's, 40's, and even a 50 something with lives, jobs, and families too. We usually raid no longer than a couple hours, and might fit two raids into one evening. The longer raids we do on the weekends, and in shifts. If anything, we've learned to make the best of the time we have online. We don't goof around, we get to the point, we set up ahead of time, and we are very efficient using the tools given to us to make every minute count.</p><p>While I agree that there are raiders that are younger and have a lot of time on their hands, and probably need a "draconian dictator", there are a lot that are regular nice players too. Lumping "all" raiders into a category is the same as lumping "all" non-raiders into a category.</p>