Opinions please - looting during/after a raid

[Maryk]

<p>Last night we had four groups do a COA raid.  The raid was about 80% successful  It was my first ever full up raid...virually no XP...but plenty of raiding experience and I think I even dinged an AA point.  This was not a guild raid...mostly a pickup raid...22 toons in all.</p><p>Throughout the raid several chests were looted by the Master Looter...rules were delineated ahead of time that loot would be rolled for after the raid was done.</p><p>So maybe a half dozen pieces of fabled equipment...some spells...and a half dozen rares (vanadium, rough pearl, etc) were looted.</p><p>The Master Looter had folks roll for the equipment...kept the Master Spell because there was no Swashy in the group and kept the rares.</p><p>Several people sent tells to me afterwards asking, "...is he keeping the rares?"</p><p>I asked him the next day...and his replies centered around -- "...the rares are trash...you shouldn't go raiding to get rares...this is the way we always do it...hey, I set up the raid and this is my reward for setting up and leading the raid."</p><p>Is this normal? </p>

[DngrMou]

Unless this Master Looter stated up front that he was skimming all rares for himself, and anything else not needed by raid members, then no..it's not normal.  It's cheap, and it's dishonest. 

[Hellswrath]

<p>Agreed.</p>

[Zagats]

<p>For guild raids, the guild keeps all rares to use in making items for their guild members.  The guild as a whole is earning those items, so the guild officers are perfectly in their rights to use them as they see fit (for guild purposes, not to sell because theyre low on plat).</p><p>HOWEVER</p><p>This was not a guild raid.  This was a pickup raid.  Any rares, any M1 spells, and any Armor/weapon loots should be given out somehow.  If there's no swashbuckler in the raid, and a swashy M1 drops, it should be randomed out to everyone in attendance.  Have everyone in the raid do a /random 100 ONE time, and the top X people win a rare tradeskill item, X being the number of rares that dropped.</p><p>NO-TRADE items should be designated immediately following the fight, obviously.  If no one in the raid takes the item (for whatever reason), the guild leader should do one of two things:  1 - See if there's a high enough level transmuter in the raid.  Have him/her transmute the item to be randomed to all, or 2 - simply random the item to be sacrificed to their god/sold to a merchant.</p><p>At no point in time should any raid leader take an item other than trash loot for themselves without designating it ahead of time.  For instance, lets pretend I'm leading a Halls of Seeing pickup raid. I declare before the start of the raid that "Ancient Vorpal Blade, if it drops, will be looted by me, as it is the reason I'm leading this raid."  Everyone in the raid now knows ahead of time that I'm going to be a jerk and will guarantee myself loots if it drops.  If they want to leave, they can be replaced, at which time I will let the replacer know that I intend to keep AVB.</p><p>But if I had not declared that, and AVB dropped, I should have to be in the random with anyone else who would use that as a weapon upgrade.</p>

[Krilinye]

<p>Well, the rules on me and my friends open raids are that the RL (me, him and another 1) keeps masters/rares/loot that noone can use. Sell it and split it between us 3 who hosts the raid and actually put a effort into leading it.</p><p> Often when your open raiding, you do it because theres loot in the zone that You need, if you go into a zone and someone wins the item you were after right beneath your nose, then it feels good to have, for example, Arch Lich M1 in your backpocket ready to give you some cash for your work as a raid leader.</p><p>Btw, if it interests any of you open raid leaders how other open raids do it, your welcome to visit www.openraid.org</p>

[Druid03]

<p>well, you can pretty much tell its not normal since first he said the rares are trash....and then he said it was his reward for leading the raid</p><p>who would want trash as a reward? <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>like the other poster said, its cheap</p>

[KBern]

<p>Yeah it was sleazy.</p><p>If he stated up front he gets to keep the rares and people agreed great.  Otherwise he should let everyone random that has not won something and wants a rare.</p><p>The master is even worse.  It should have been handled the same way....if you didnt win something, random on the master.</p>

[Zagats]

<p>Yeah, if Mr. Po-Ta-Toes says up front "Any M1 no one in raid can use will be kept by me", then that's perfectly fair.  Everyone knows ahead of time, and wont feel cheated out of anything. </p>

[nitrous]

<cite>Marykim wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Last night we had four groups do a COA raid.  The raid was about 80% successful  It was my first ever full up raid...virually no XP...but plenty of raiding experience and I think I even dinged an AA point.  This was not a guild raid...mostly a pickup raid...22 toons in all.</p><p>Throughout the raid several chests were looted by the Master Looter...rules were delineated ahead of time that loot would be rolled for after the raid was done.</p><p>So maybe a half dozen pieces of fabled equipment...some spells...and a half dozen rares (vanadium, rough pearl, etc) were looted.</p><p>The Master Looter had folks roll for the equipment...kept the Master Spell because there was no Swashy in the group and kept the rares.</p><p>Several people sent tells to me afterwards asking, "...is he keeping the rares?"</p><p>I asked him the next day...and his replies centered around -- "...the rares are trash...you shouldn't go raiding to get rares...this is the way we always do it...hey, I set up the raid and this is my reward for setting up and leading the raid."</p><p>Is this normal? </p></blockquote><p>Well, I am not a raider but I have been on many raids both guild and puickup.   For pickup the general rule of thumb, unless otherwise stated, is as follows.</p><p>1. All loot is rolled on at the end of the raid with the exception of no drops.   Of course you roll on those right away.      If no one is there that can use the item/gear then it is FFA.   Some raids will limit you to the amount of items you can win and some do not.   All depends on the raid leader but they generally tell the raid up front.   Now these general "play nice" rules ussually apply to spells, items and gear.   As for the other items, like harvesting rares, normally the hosting guild for the raid will claim those for putting the raid together.   </p>

[Korpo]

Whenever I've lead pickup raids, I save the loot for the end and have everyone /ran 100. Top roll gets first pick, second roll gets second pick, etc. On the table are any fabled items, M1 spells where there wasn't one of those in the raid, and tradeskill rares. I don't hand out the Ad1 spells, junk armor, or anything like that because it's not worth the few gold they'd bring. Also, arguing that you want that M1 spell because you have an alt gets you kicked out of the raid. Feel free to bring your alt next time.

[Maryk]

<p>Thanks for the replies. </p><p> Well...I certainly agree that putting the raid together and leading the group through the raid is worth something.  Makes all the difference walking through this thing with someone in charge and knowing what they're doing.</p><p>Something about this...though...didn't seem right.  </p>

[TheBu]

<p>Well u have to roll at the end to keep the toons around.</p><p>As far as rares and masters( unused) they normaly go to the guild bank. I say if it was at least half the guild then that is fair.. </p><p>I been on some pickup raids and it just depeneds on who running it. Some roll for rares/masters at the end also. with a max of 1 greed item.</p>

[DynamicPerforman]

I run guild raids, with about 75%+ attendence being my guild.  The other slots are filled with pick ups. I run NBG FFA LDR. Need first, then free for all, then if its "trash" I take it and use it to finance further raids. <ul><li>Rares truly are trash to me, although they sell well. I have the raid /random 1000 for them.</li><li>Armor/jewelry drops that someone can use are /random 1000 for those that will use it. Or /random 1000 to all if no one wants.</li><li>Trash loot (blood, paws, looted tresures) go to me the raid leader. I use the cash from these to finance repair kits, drinks and potions.  </li><li>No-trade items no one wants usually go to me as well, unless they are t7 in which case i transmute them and random off the results.</li><li>Masters go to those that can use, if its useless to the raid, but important to a guildie I take it and hand it off. If no one in raid or guild can use I just Random it.</li></ul>On a good raid I'll make 1-2pp in leader looted loots. On a bad one I'll lose 1-2pp in repair kits.  I generally try to make sure everyone on the raid wins at least 3 items (rares, upgrade etc). And so far its been going well. I used to run dkp but that took too long.  The goal of a raid leader is to make sure that at the end of the day, everyone is happy.  Win or lose. 

[Ciarr]

<p>if it is a guild raid (with some pickup fillers) a standard practice is to have raid leader loot everything noone can use for guild bank / guild funds (including rares) if it is a single person there is really no standard practice what to do with rares, items noone can use and no-trade items noone can use</p><p>it is also a standard practice to loot everything which is tradable and random at the end (to keep people in raid till the end) and some other restrictions (e.g. 1 item per person or for example that scouts won't be allowed to roll for an axe with hate proc)</p><p>raid leaders often reserve rights to do something special with some items (an example: a good plate drop may be reserved for raid MT)</p><p>the only rule which <b>really</b> apply is whatever was stated as <i>loot rulles</i> <b>before</b> raid started.</p><p>and the good practice is to ask for loot rules if raid leader did not post them in raid chat, than you can decide if you are in or out</p><p>I will give you an example: I got an invite to guild raid once and the rules were: 'no item goes outside guild because we use DKP system' so... (since I was the only outsider and actually the only one playing my class) I asked: - if my master  drops will I get it? - 'No' - if an item for my class which noone else can use drops? - 'No'</p><p>I wished them good luck and waved goodbye</p><p>personally I don't have problems with raid leader keeping some of the loots, I know it from both sides, leading a raid is an extra stress and is certainly worth something, there are some lines between getting payed a little extra for the effort and being a jerk, but it all depends on people and zone</p><p>rares? I consider them trash usually... if you are raiding T7 you are probably level 70 and having spells/CAs at ad3 is like base line (I consider it unfair to join raid without being properly equipped (e.g. healer with app1 heals.. etc)</p>

[Karlen]

>>>rules were delineated ahead of time that loot would be rolled for after the raid was done.<<< Seems clear to me that "loot would be rolled for after the raid was done". If a clear rule was announced at the beginning, then that rule should be followed.  Anything that drops is "loot".

[Maryk]

<p>Again...thanks the responses.  A couple things to note.  The Master Looter (ML) ...I work with this guy and I trust him...he's helped me considerably in the past.  I just didn't understand the rationale as he explained it.  A couple observations from this thread:</p><p>1.  My first raid so I was on a bit of a learning curve.</p><p>2.  Loot rules need to be clearly delineated up front.  The ML could've done a better job explaining these rules.</p><p>3.  You cannot conduct a raid (it seems to me) without someone who knows what they're doing and takes charge.  ML in this case was a good leader...knew what he was doing.</p><p>4.  Loot may be trash to you...but what's one man's trash...I could sell on the broker or transmute.  </p><p>5.  If its a guild raid...take the "trash" to support the guild.  If its a pickup...absolutely FFA on everything.  Count on raid members to honor the informal NBG rules...if not kick 'em.</p><p>6.  One good point that hadn't occurred to me...definitely got to wait til the raid is over...you don't want someone getting what they want and then all of the sudden they need to leave.</p>

[wlerner]

<p>If you are attending a pickup raid then the rules are set by the raid leader.  If you do not like them, don't raid with that person.</p><p>Items like clusters, and AD1s are not garbage, but they are not worth rolling over.  You want clusters, harvest, dont raid.  You want an AD1, then go farm mobs.  Do not waste raid time on items that are of little value.</p><p>Its disturbing that you would waste your time arguing over small items, when the purpose of a raid is usually to kill a named target for a quest, farm Fabled items, or for the experience of the zone.  Such items are not worth arguing over.</p><p>The main point here, is that if you do not like the rules set out by the raid leader, don't raid.  Stick to harvesting shineys.</p>

[DngrMou]

<cite>wlerner wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you are attending a pickup raid then the rules are set by the raid leader.  If you do not like them, don't raid with that person.</p><p>Items like clusters, and AD1s are not garbage, but they are not worth rolling over.  You want clusters, harvest, dont raid.  You want an AD1, then go farm mobs.  Do not waste raid time on items that are of little value.</p><p>Its disturbing that you would waste your time arguing over small items, when the purpose of a raid is usually to kill a named target for a quest, farm Fabled items, or for the experience of the zone.  Such items are not worth arguing over.</p><p>The main point here, is that if you do not like the rules set out by the raid leader, don't raid.  Stick to harvesting shineys.</p></blockquote>I don't believe anyone's suggested otherwise.  The OP's point was that these 'rules' were'nt revealed beforehand.

[wlerner]

<p>Apparently the rules were told to all, just not to the OP's satisfaction.  Raid attendees must realize that not every single instance can be covered in the rules, given the large amount of possible outcomes.</p>

[DngrMou]

<cite>wlerner wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Apparently the rules were told to all, just not to the OP's satisfaction.  Raid attendees must realize that not every single instance can be covered in the rules, given the large amount of possible outcomes.</p></blockquote><p> The OP stated:  " Throughout the raid several chests were looted by the Master Looter<b>...rules were delineated ahead of time that loot would be rolled for after the raid was done.</b>"</p><p>It was at the end of the raid that it was discovered by the OP, and the several others that whispered to her, that rares would not be rolled on.  It takes no more time to say, "I will keep all rares, and non-needed equip and spells for myself", than it does to say "All loot will be rolled on at the end of the raid".  I have no problem with someone who's putting these together keeping those items...I would like to know that up front though.  I assume most others would too.</p>

[wlerner]

The OP was incorrect, the word "all" was not used in reference the loot.  I work with the raid leader and the OP IRL, and we have discussed this.  Suffice it to say, the raid leader was following what appears to be the norm, and the OP, being on his first raid, was unaware of this. 

[liveja]

<cite>wlerner wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The OP was incorrect, the word "all" was not used in reference the loot.</p><p><span style="color: #006600">Please directly quote the OP using the word "all" in relation to the loot. The OP said "loot", not "all loot".</span></p><p>Suffice it to say, the raid leader was following what appears to be the norm.</p><p><span style="color: #006600">Rolling for rares is the norm. Announcing in advance that rares are not rolled for, but rather go to the organizing guild, is the norm. Declaring after the raid that T7 rares are "trash" is not only not the norm, it's indicative of someone who doesn't know what he/she is talking about.</span></p></blockquote>

[KBern]

<cite>wlerner wrote:</cite><blockquote>The OP was incorrect, the word "all" was not used in reference the loot.  I work with the raid leader and the OP IRL, and we have discussed this.  Suffice it to say, the raid leader was following what appears to be the norm, and the OP, being on his first raid, was unaware of this.  </blockquote><p> Not saying who was right or wrong, but there is no "norm" in pick up raids, each one is different, but I am sure you mean the norm for this raid leader.  </p><p>If the raid leader said all rares went to him/her and his/her guild then that is fine and clear, but if that was not said that is a detail that should be disclosed before all pick up raids.  The same goes with the swashy master the raid leader supposedly kept.</p><p>It is the responsibility of the raid leader to be clear on all loot, just as much as it is the responsibility of the raiders to ask questions if there was no mention of it.</p><p>Lesson learned by the OP in the future to ask if they did not hear how all loot will be handled.</p>

[DngrMou]

<cite>wlerner wrote:</cite><blockquote>The OP was incorrect, the word "all" was not used in reference the loot.  I work with the raid leader and the OP IRL, and we have discussed this.  Suffice it to say, the raid leader was following what appears to be the norm, and the OP, being on his first raid, was unaware of this.  </blockquote> Cool.  I'm bowing on out of this one then! 

[wlerner]

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>wlerner wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The OP was incorrect, the word "all" was not used in reference the loot.</p><p><span style="color: #006600">Please directly quote the OP using the word "all" in relation to the loot. The OP said "loot", not "all loot".</span></p><p>Suffice it to say, the raid leader was following what appears to be the norm.</p><p><span style="color: #006600">Rolling for rares is the norm. Announcing in advance that rares are not rolled for, but rather go to the organizing guild, is the norm. Declaring after the raid that T7 rares are "trash" is not only not the norm, it's indicative of someone who doesn't know what he/she is talking about.</span></p></blockquote> </blockquote><p> The raid leader never declared the rares as trash during the raid.  This was said in a discussion IRL that you were not privy to.  I corrected the raid leader that these items are not trash, but in the larger picture of raid loot, they are of little consequence.  While the rares are desireable, their disposition was not spelled out ahead of time.  In comparison to the items most people are interested in, the rares are of little consquence.</p><p>It is inconvienient and unrealistic to expect the raid leader to explain the disposition of every single item that could be looted prior to the raid.    If this is expected, I suggest you do not raid.  This is a game, and the rules are not always fair, and the division of loot is not always equal.  The rules were spelled out, minus mention of the rares.  The guild that the raid leader was in normally does not roll on rares, so he was just following what he considers the norm.</p><p>This is my last post in this thread on this matter, as it is no longer constructive to discuss.  The main lesson here is that if the policies and procedures of the raid have not been explained to you as an individual to your satisfaction, leave the raid.  If the policies and procedures of the raid have been explained to your satisfaction and are not being followed, then protest.  If the policies and procedures are not to your liking, then leave the raid.  The group dynamics and the fun are more imporatnt than the loot. </p>

[liveja]

<cite>wlerner wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>While the rares are desireable, their disposition was not spelled out ahead of time.</p><p> <span style="color: #006600">Which is precisely the point the OP made: the loot rules were not properly explained.</span></p><p> In comparison to the items most people are interested in, the rares are of little consquence.</p><p><span style="color: #006600">Anyone that doesn't get an item/CA upgrade in a raid would pretty surely want a T7 rare. But, if you think 40-80 gold is "of little consequence", more power to you.</span></p><span style="color: #006600">O, BTW: "just leave the raid" is pretty bloody difficult to do, AFTER the raid is over. & seriously, policies that are "the norm" for a guild raid aren't "the norm" for a pickup raid, & shouldn't be so assumed.</span></blockquote>

[Maryk]

Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>wlerner wrote:</cite><blockquote>The OP was incorrect, the word "all" was not used in reference the loot.  I work with the raid leader and the OP IRL, and we have discussed this.  Suffice it to say, the raid leader was following what appears to be the norm, and the OP, being on his first raid, was unaware of this.  </blockquote> Cool.  I'm bowing on out of this one then!  </blockquote><p> I don't want to drag this out ad nauseum...the OP (me) was not incorrect.  It was clearly stated before the raid started that...</p><p>- Non-Tradeable loot will be NBG...(to me that means all Non-Tradeable Loot)</p><p>- Tradeable loot will be rolled for...(to me that means all Tradeable Loot)  </p><p>A Vanadium cluster...in my mind...is Tradeable loot.     </p><p>I've argued with these guys IRL...they're more experienced raiders than me by a long shot...I guess we're just going to disagree.</p>

[KBern]

<cite>wlerner wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It is inconvienient and unrealistic to expect the raid leader to explain the disposition of every single item that could be looted prior to the raid.    If this is expected, I suggest you do not raid.  This is a game, and the rules are not always fair, and the division of loot is not always equal.  The rules were spelled out, minus mention of the rares.  The guild that the raid leader was in normally does not roll on rares, so he was just following what he considers the norm.</p></blockquote><p> It is not inconvenient and unrealistic to explain how the loot that drops will be handled.  Rares are a normal part of most raids and even non-guild sanctioned raids with guildies, we make this clear and let people roll on rares.</p><p>It is one extra line of text to explain how rares will be handled and there are still people who need ad3's and such from those rares in alot of cases.</p><p>I suggest you not decide for others what is important loot or not.</p><p>But as I said earlier, lesson learned for the OP and others would be to always ask about loot before any pick up raid or even pick up group.  As the Bad News Bears taught us, it is not good to [Removed for Content]-u-me anything.</p>

[Skua]

agree with op. loot = ALL LOOT rares and a Swashy M1 (which 1 btw?) are no trash.....

[DngrMou]

<cite>Marykim wrote:</cite><blockquote>Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>wlerner wrote:</cite><blockquote>The OP was incorrect, the word "all" was not used in reference the loot.  I work with the raid leader and the OP IRL, and we have discussed this.  Suffice it to say, the raid leader was following what appears to be the norm, and the OP, being on his first raid, was unaware of this.  </blockquote> Cool.  I'm bowing on out of this one then!  </blockquote><p> <b>I don't want to drag this out ad nauseum...the OP (me) was not incorrect.  It was clearly stated before the raid started that...</b></p><p><b>- Non-Tradeable loot will be NBG...(to me that means all Non-Tradeable Loot)</b></p><p><b>- Tradeable loot will be rolled for...(to me that means all Tradeable Loot)  </b></p><p><b>A Vanadium cluster...in my mind...is Tradeable loot.  </b>   </p><p>I've argued with these guys IRL...they're more experienced raiders than me by a long shot...I guess we're just going to disagree.</p></blockquote><p>I'm bowing back in.  The OP is still right.  They should have been specific about loot rules.  It's cheap, greedy, and decietful to spring that surprise on the entire raid after the fact.  If it's all just fine, and above board, and common practice...why did'nt they just say so up front?</p><p>The 'norm' in my mind does'nt excuse the raid leader(s) from CLEARLY explaining the rules beforehand.  </p>

[Caetrel]

A leader can't take from the people he is leading.  Sounds like the guy just got some people together and skimmed some loot.  You can't successfully lead the night shift at Taco Bell acting like that.  Equity goes a long way in keeping people coming back...you are 100% correct to find fault with the situation. Edited to add: Lol you are talking about CoAA I just saw that.  The only reason to raid this place is to get 57-60 masters and the 15-20 rares that drop....the rest, except perhaps 1-2 items are nothing anyone could not easily upgrade in t7 out of heroic instances.  So this guy kept the only really valuable stuff and doled out the no trade and some tradeable but of little value junk to people on the raid...nice.

[YummiOger]

<p>YOU ....</p><p>GOT .....</p><p>JACKED ....</p>

[mellowknees72]

<cite>Marykim wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Last night we had four groups do a COA raid.  The raid was about 80% successful  It was my first ever full up raid...virually no XP...but plenty of raiding experience and I think I even dinged an AA point.  This was not a guild raid...mostly a pickup raid...22 toons in all.</p><p>Throughout the raid several chests were looted by the Master Looter...rules were delineated ahead of time that loot would be rolled for after the raid was done.</p><p>So maybe a half dozen pieces of fabled equipment...some spells...and a half dozen rares (vanadium, rough pearl, etc) were looted.</p><p>The Master Looter had folks roll for the equipment...kept the Master Spell because there was no Swashy in the group and kept the rares.</p><p>Several people sent tells to me afterwards asking, "...is he keeping the rares?"</p><p>I asked him the next day...and his replies centered around -- "...the rares are trash...you shouldn't go raiding to get rares...this is the way we always do it...hey, I set up the raid and this is my reward for setting up and leading the raid."</p><p>Is this normal? </p></blockquote><p>/waves hand</p><p>Hi, I was Master Looter for my EQ1 guild and for our alliance of guilds.  I Master Looted many-a-raid and also for just plain old exp groups.</p><p>What your ML did in this situation is absolutely not cool - it's underhanded and greedy.</p><p>IMO, at the end of the whole thing, the rares should have probably been divided between the guilds that were represented at the raid for their use in outfitting their members.  NO WAY should the ML have kept all of that stuff.  Vendor fodder should be sold off and the proceeds split between the guilds represented as well.</p><p>Next time you do something like this - don't just assume that your ML is going to know what you expect - tell him/her what is expected of the Main Looter (i.e. at the end of the raid, all cash, rares and other items are split as equally as possible with officers or leaders of the guilds present for their guild banks).</p><p>What this person did...well...it's very very not cool.  I'd love to use another word, but the forum will then tell you that I can't control my vocabulary. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>