Fury / healer question

[ZUES]

<p>Hi. recently rolled a fury and I'm at 44 now. I'm wodering how important it is to cure the tank or group when the icons show up under their name. I dont notice any difference and it seems like it wastes time casting. So how important is it?</p><p>Next a fury specific question. I continually get agro when I dps. I realize in the 40s tanks dont have super uber taunt powers but I get it a little too often I think. What I'm doing is casting HoT prior to pulls, casting my 2 dots (to go slow with agro), cast faerie thing then nuke. My main is a conjuror and it seems to work on that class but not this one. What am I doing wrong? Tank full health and I want to contribute to dps but when I get hit it's stun central! Sometimes I'll end up tanking the duration of the fight and cant cast at all due to stuns. I feel I'm giving sufficient time for tank to get agro. This has happened with mutiple tanks not just one. My stardust is master 1 but if I cast it too early it will agro but I run out of clicky options when I cast. What can I do or what clicky steps do you take to ensure no agro?</p><p>This was my provisioner for a year and I've spent a little too much money buying collections on him. I've been playing him alot lately and all his stats are now maxed out but I wish I would have started playing him a little younger. But I am where I am and have learned alot about this class except for agro control and the importance of curing. Please advise.</p>

[Xova]

<cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hi. recently rolled a fury and I'm at 44 now. I'm wodering how important it is to cure the tank or group when the icons show up under their name. I dont notice any difference and it seems like it wastes time casting. So how important is it?</p><p><span style="color: #cc00ff">It depends. Some fights you can get by without curing trauma, etc. Others it's essential. For example if you fight Vision of Vox, she has a cold DoT that ticks for a large amount of damage. If you don't cure that, your group may be dead. I'd venture to say on trash mobs, etc. you can get away without casting cures, but on epics or nameds, you may want to get into the habit. And as you get more familiar with mobs and their DoT attacks, you'll learn which ones need curing and which don't. Plus the other players should let you know if they need a cure (ie. they're rooted, stifled, stunned, etc.)</span></p><p>Next a fury specific question. <span style="color: #00cc00">I continually get agro when I dps.</span> I realize in the 40s tanks dont have super uber taunt powers but I get it a little too often I think. <span style="color: #00cc00">What I'm doing is casting HoT prior to pulls</span>, casting my 2 dots (to go slow with agro), cast faerie thing then nuke. My main is a conjuror and it seems to work on that class but not this one. What am I doing wrong? Tank full health and I want to contribute to dps but when I get hit it's stun central! Sometimes I'll end up tanking the duration of the fight and cant cast at all due to stuns. I feel I'm giving sufficient time for tank to get agro. This has happened with mutiple tanks not just one. My stardust is master 1 but if I cast it too early it will agro but I run out of clicky options when I cast. What can I do or what clicky steps do you take to ensure no agro?</p><p><span style="color: #cc00ff">I highlighted those two lines because (in my opinion) that is your problem. Remember that you should be a healer first, and a DPS'er second. If you have other DPS'ers in the group, then let them DPS while you heal. As a general rule of thumb, I only DPS if it's a group of 3 or smaller, or if there is another healer in the group, and even then I limit my DPS to dots, debuffs, interrupts, only using my nukes if duo'ing or if it's needed.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc00ff">The other issue is the pre-heal. Some healers like to do that, others don't. It's like this: when the tank pulls he is generating hate from the mob. If the tank has a HoT or a ward on him at the pull, there is a chance for the mob's hate to immediately transfer to whoever is healing the tank. Personally I never pre-heal (or pre-ward) because of this chance to pull aggro. If you are finding this to be a problem, the best thing to do is have your tank count down the pull, and time the casting of your first heal appropriately. You really only need to do this if the mob has a big intial hit, giving you the opportunity to time your heal to coincide with the first hit. For example there's a named gnoll in Silent City (can't remember his name now - General somethingorother) who has a huge hit about 2 seconds into the fight that can one-shot a tank. So my tank counts down, I cast my HoT about a second before pull, and follow that up with Back Into the Fray. Tank stays alive, and I don't get healer aggro from a pre-heal. Also, a good tank should be able to absorb the first few hits of a mob, building aggro, before you have to cast your first heal.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc00ff">If you like pre-healing it's fine, but understand that there is a chance for your pre-heal to pull aggro onto you. If you don't want to deal with it, then don't pre-heal.</span></p><p>This was my provisioner for a year and I've spent a little too much money buying collections on him. I've been playing him alot lately and all his stats are now maxed out but I wish I would have started playing him a little younger. But I am where I am and have learned alot about this class except for agro control and the importance of curing. Please advise.</p></blockquote>My comments in <span style="color: #cc00ff">pink</span> above. Hopefully they're helpful. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[TheBu]

<p>#1 cures.. .   well that really depends on the dots and the damage /trama that they do and how offten. I think the rule is to try to cure before u heal. But at lvl 40 ish not sure it is a big deal.</p><p>[edit  for better english] If ur tank is able to move, taunt and the dot not hurting them..  then ther not big deal But purhaps tier 6 and tier7 ther are some crazy zones that u just have to cure no matter otherwise u have a tank a 0 mit</p><p>#2 to dps or not to dps...   hot and blow it up i say. But just like a wiz dont aoe first, use a direct damage. if u have time debuff first. our aoe is kinda like a warlocks it all at once. a wis aoe is kinda a dot so it over time. And well u know what they say about warlocks and agro problems.. [edit] So dont use ur aoe first ur the direct nuke.</p><p>keeping aoe agro is the hardest thing for a tank. if u get agro from the mob that the tank is on thats the tanks problem.. .if u get agro from a mob thats the tank is not on... thats ur problem(agro control).</p><p>[edit grammer]</p>

[Ciarr]

<p>1. cures - generally it is worth to cure any long duration effect and you can ignore short duration effects, which one is which? just try curing and see how it works if effects are reaplied quickly or disappear itself quickly it's often not worth trying to cure them (there are some exceptions especially in raid zones)</p><p>2. dps - you are a healer, don't expect tank to keep agro if you both heal and nuke, tanks only have 1 AE taunt with long recast so as long as you don't use AE nuke early they should be able to keep agro just fine, if you plan to AE nuke early... better make sure that tank is a pally with amends on you...</p><p>you shouldn't pre-HoT unless it's really nessesary, many tanks have reactive taunts and if you are pulling agro on pull it makes it harder for them to get it back, 95% of pulls are body-pulls these days so pre-HoTs mess it badly</p><p>if I really need to pre-HoT I usually do that by starting casting group HoT when tank is on the way back, time in this way that he can get ae taunt off before I finish casting and than usually follow by single HoT</p>

[Catsy]

Xova pretty much said it all, and said it well. To that I would add my own opinion: furies should entirely refrain from DPSing until they master their role as a healer. There are far too many nuke-kiddies who rolled a fury because they can DPS who are giving furies a bad name because they suck as healers, constantly pull agro, and get groups killed. I'm not saying the OP is like this, so please do not take it that way. I just know from experience that balancing DPS and effective healing can be like walking a tightrope, and you had really better be an excellent healer before you try being a nuker in a group. HoTs on pull are almost always, without exception, a bad idea. In groups you can get away with it if your tank is really good or you're very well-equipped, but in raids or high-end zones it will get you killed quickly. If you have a poor tank who's taking too much damage, or are in a high-end zone, it's worth it to cast your single HoT on him immediately--but only after he's got the mob in position. As a rule of thumb, unless I know that a particular mob's debuffs are weaksauce, I cure everything, and I drop everything to cure trauma. Some mobs have trauma debuffs that reduce a tank's defenses such that the next autoattack will one-shot the tank if the trauma isn't cured. Using a UI like ProfitUI Reborn will help, as it has icons next to each group member for the four types of debuffs, and you can just click the icon to cure.

[Alexian]

I didn't see this mentioned above at first glance, but when in situations where it is safe to blow a small range aoe, use your Seizing Brambles.  The recast on it is a pain, but it is quite effective when upgraded and will more often than not dump hate back on the tank.  This is particularly useful if you intend to use Starburst (which is akin to putting a target on your forehead - as you've obviously found out).  If I'm not mistaken, you can reduce the reuse timer on Brambles by dumping some points into the appropriate area on your EOF Achievement lines.   Well worth it - this spell has saved my butt a few times.

[Tsera]

I'm going to throw in my two copper, because my comments are going to be slightly different from everyone else's. 1. Cures - At 44, you probably don't need to worry too much about curing, unless you're up against a specific named or epic.  At higher levels, though, the DoTs, stuns, stifles, etc. can get vicious and easily kill a group, so you're going to need to get into the habit at some point.  (Myself, I ignored cures in all fights and was absolutely fine until my high 50's and Poet's Palace - OW.  That was a wake up call.)  How you want to go about doing that is up to you, but if your group isn't dying, you're not doing anything wrong. 2. Heals and DPS - I disagree with a number of the responses here.  If the tank is at full or close to full health and in no danger of dropping fast, I think you *should* put out some DPS and try to help the group as much as possible.  Our first job is as a healer, but if there's no healing to be done, we should continue to do what we can to help the group.  Your set up - DoT, DoT, Fae Fire, Nuke - is not a bad one, and with a halfway decent tank shouldn't be grabbing you any aggro.  (I certainly don't.) Your problem, as others pointed out, is in timing your first HoT.  If you can, don't HoT immediately before or during the pull.  What I usually do is wait a few seconds (if I can afford it) for the tank to build up a bit of aggro and the mob to make a dent in his hit points - doesn't have to be much; even half a bubble is fine - and *then* throw up the single target HoT.  The HoT will, in most cases (and certainly the ones you seem to be talking about), heal him more than the mob(s) are damaging him, the tank will have some solid aggro at that point, and then you can go through your DPS cycle.  Keep an eye on your party's health while you do so, but I think you've got that in hand. Hope that helps.  Remember that this is all very general, and different situations call for different methods, so don't take my word as gospel for all cases.

[ZUES]

<p>I appreciate all the awsome response guys thank you. I grinded a couple more levels last night and I actually did alot of what you guys have stated in your remarks. I did not have such a hard time last night but was in Permafrost and had mostly single targets. A brigand tanked for most of it and did a great job. I think I kinda back off a bit because I knew he didnt have uber taunts. It worked!</p><p>Now if I can max my solo game potential. Wish we had a snare at this level (I think we get one in 50s). Root sucks at this level but I think it does with most classes. It would be easier if our casting times were shorter but I know in all due time and with AA's. Looking foward to getting a Cloak of Zet on this toon. : )</p><p>Anyway. Thanks again for all the advice. I will use it.</p>

[Catsy]

Huh? We get our snare at level 10 and it doesn't upgrade or become obsolete. Check your spellbook. Root-and-nuke can be effective against tough monsters, but most solo and single-up mobs are more efficiently taken down toe-to-toe by using the biggest nuke/dot you have up at any given time.

[TheBu]

<p>We have a good root and it is better than a mages.</p><p>5% to break it is great u need to get ur subgation up.. and get the right lvl spell. I recommend using ur lowest lvl root on mobs to try to get ur skill up.</p>

[Xova]

Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote: <blockquote>Huh? We get our snare at level 10 and it doesn't upgrade or become obsolete. Check your spellbook. Root-and-nuke can be effective against tough monsters, but most solo and single-up mobs are more efficiently taken down toe-to-toe by using the biggest nuke/dot you have up at any given time. </blockquote><p> We get Enveloping Roots, which we get at lvl7 now. We also get the snare, which adjusts to our level and can be beefed up through our AA's.</p><p>Adding to what Catsy said, the ProfitUI Reborn interface is a great UI for healers as you can cast cures from clicking on the cure icons next your groupmate's names. Makes it very easy to cure instead of frantically searching around your toolbars for the right cure.</p><p>The "DPS or not" question is touchy (as you can see from the replies in this thread) so it's really up to you. Just remember that you are a HEALER first. DPS'ing as a Fury can be fun, and you can put out some serious damage, but don't let yourself get carried away to the point you forget to heal. And I agree with Catsy - a Fury shouldn't worry about being a DPS'er unless they've got healing covered. If heals are under control, then DoT and nuke away. But if they're not, then heal first, and leave the damage to others.</p>

[DarrkElf]

<p>Cures can be a minor thing, or a major issue depending on the mob.  Most fights under level 50 cures are not a big deal, and even higher than level 50 solo or grouped you usually don't have a major need to cure.</p><p>That said, in raiding cures can be vital, especially at the higher level raids, and it's worth getting into the habit of curing.  There are some raid mobs that cast dots that will kill everyone they hit within a few seconds, and need to be cured immediately or else the whole raid group will wipe.</p><p>You usually learn through experience which DoTs cast by raid or heroic mobs are dangerous, and which ones can pretty much be ignored.</p><p>Keep in mind that Fury is a healer class, so your prioroties are to heal and cure before anything else.  You can still do plenty of DPS, but my advice is that if you are the only group healer, make sure everyone in the group has been healed to 100% and fully cured before you start throwing out offensive spells.</p><p>AVOIDING AGGRO</p><p>Where possible avoid casting pre-heals on the tank.  If you are going to cast a HoT on the tank before the pull then hold off before doing any DPS for a few secs so the tank can get aggro.  A good way to do this is heal at a steady pace and watch to make sure the mob is whacking the tank before you worry about doing damage.</p><p>Your AA line lets you upgrade your deaggro spell, max it out and try and use an Adept 3 or Master.  It's a good idea to check and see if your deaggro spell is up before you start DPSing.  If it's not ready to be used yet then don't go nuts nuking, because if you get aggro you won't be able to get rid of it.</p><p>If you do get aggro the best thing to do is stop casting, run to the tank and let the tank taunt the mob off you.  If you continue casting once you've got aggro then the mob will stay on you.</p><p>Generally speaking it is up to each class to manage their own aggro.  Unless the tank is just not taunting, if you get aggro it will be your fault.  We each have to adjust our timing and spell use to fit in with whichever tank we're using.  If your usual tank has master taunts then you can usually nuke away with no problems.  If you are with a tank that has adept taunts or less experience then you'll want to start out slow on heals and nukes to see how much you can do without stealing aggro.</p>

[Falc61881]

<p>Cures-   Well, its always a good habit to get into, to just cure people.  Since you're lower level, and probably not raiding yet.... there's really nothing you "HAVE" to cure, as there won't be any mobs with any dots that will really hurt you that much..... but some will decrease mit or resists, some will decrease offensive skills (dps, attack speed), some may even power drain, and while they probably wont kill you.... they will hurt efficiency, and youll kill a lot faster, heal less, and use less power by curing most dots.</p><p>As you get to a higher level, some of the dots will be a little more serious, like in halls of fate... debilitate will lower the tanks mit by a lot..... when it first came out was like 4200 mit, and the tank would probably die in 2 hits if it wasn't cured.  Like most other stuff, its been nerfed, and you could still heal through that without much trouble.  When you get to raids though... there are some like invalidate which will take a fully raid geared tank's mit to 0, and he will get 1 shotted, or like the eyeballs in DT where, if you dont cure your group, they may die as well.  In the end... for what you are doing now its not necessary, but its a good habit to get into.</p><p>DPS/Peeling - I have a few comments about all the replies you've gotten.  First, about the whole prehealing thing.... I would agree with most to not do it, but for a different reason.  Prehealing really shouldn't get you agro, as any decent tank should taunt, which will get them agro easily.  Even if they are body pulling... a preheal may get you initial agro, but the tank should group taunt before the mobs get to you.  If you are prehealing and holding agro because of it, your tank blows, but that wouldn't surprise me with pickup tanks or lower level tanks.  The reason I wouldn't preheal, is that its a complete waste of time in my opinion.  You're regen will last 10 seconds, and by prehealing, some, or most of that will be spent healing nothing, and by the time the tank does pull, the regen is almost gone.  On my defiler I preward all the time, usually with both single and group, but both of those last 30 seconds and will last as long as the duration or ward amount permits, and again.... if I'm keeping agro, the tank blows.  For a druid, don't preheal, save your power, and start healing when there's something to heal.</p><p>As for the whole DPS thing, and some people telling you to only nuke if you have to, or if there isnt much DPS in the group, or to just heal, as youre a healer not a DPS, its people like that who really bother me, people who don't play their class to the fullest and slack off because they don't think it matters.  Theres nothing worse than staying in a zone for an extra hour because people dont know how to play their class or just slack off.  Like you said... the tank was full, so you wanted to DPS.  If the tank is full, you have 3 options, a) sit there and heal, and waste your power because the tank is full and you're heals arent healing anything b) sit there and do nothing, since you dont want to waste power, but there's nothing to heal, or c) DPS until the tank is in need of healing.  I'd rather not waste my time or the group's, so I'll start DPSing, when the tank gets to like 75, throw up your hot, if he seems to need more healing... then of course, heal.... but if he's stable, nuke as much as you can, help kill the mob.</p><p>As for the people who say its up to everyone to control their agro, tank's should usually be able to hold agro, and if they lose it, they should be able to get it back.  All tanks have taunts, depending on what your tank is, most have extra hate gain abilities, like a paladin has amends, where they take like 41% of someones hate, guards and zerkers both have spells that get them hate when they are hit, monks can proc hate when they hit a mob... all tanks have rescue... there are many things that can be done to increase hate, tanks should not lose agro, especially to a nuking healer.  On top of that.... you should be able to take enough hits, and keep yourself up long enough for a tank to get agro back, or the tank really sucks.  If you're constantly peeling agro just from nuking, remind the tank that you are a healer, and he should be taunting.</p>

[Catsy]

Claria@Nektulos wrote: <blockquote><p>As for the people who say its up to everyone to control their agro, tank's should usually be able to hold agro, and if they lose it, they should be able to get it back.  All tanks have taunts, depending on what your tank is, most have extra hate gain abilities, like a paladin has amends, where they take like 41% of someones hate, guards and zerkers both have spells that get them hate when they are hit, monks can proc hate when they hit a mob... all tanks have rescue... there are many things that can be done to increase hate, tanks should not lose agro, especially to a nuking healer.  On top of that.... you should be able to take enough hits, and keep yourself up long enough for a tank to get agro back, or the tank really sucks.  <b>If you're constantly peeling agro just from nuking, remind the tank that you are a healer, and he should be taunting.</b></p></blockquote> Emphasis mine. This sort of mentality drives me nuts. It is precisely this kind of attitude that makes people hate furies and avoid inviting them to groups in favor of another priest. It is especially incomprehensible because nearly everything else you wrote in your post is spot-on. If you're constantly peeling agro just from nuking, it's not the tank's fault--it's yours, so /don't nuke so hard/. Furies have very little agro management ability beyond our single blue aoe and a dehate in the WIS line that only goes up to 10% when maxed. It is very easy for a fury with a high INT and A3/master nukes to pull agro from a competent raid-equipped tank in a group, let alone an average tank from a PUG. I can do it simply by cycling swarm, tempest, tbolt and starnova. If I engage Vortex I can fight DPS classes for the parse without the benefit of any of their agro management abilities, and I will absolutely pull agro in a PUG. I do it sometimes anyway to burn down the mob faster--but that's because I'm experienced and well-equipped enough to know what heroic mobs I can tank long enough for the mob to die if I overnuke, and to know when it's not going to jeopardize the group. For most furies, this is really bad advice that will get them killed, kicked from groups, and/or shunned. Regardless of whether or not you personally can tank the mob, when it turns to attack you it screws up scout positioning and exposes everyone else in the group to ripostes and frontal aoes. The question of just who is responsible for keeping agro on the tank is an age-old horse that has long since been beaten into dog food. There are half a dozen threads on it from various perspectives at any given time. Usually the answer is "everyone"--DPS classes shouldn't overdo it, with the definition of such being "dps that exceeds the ability of the tank to hold agro". Tanks should upgrade their taunts to A3/master and use them. Healers shouldn't heal harder than they have to to keep the tank alive, and should be keenly aware of the hate their nuking generates on top of their healing, since they don't have agro transfer or any significant dehate. For furies in specific: watch the timing of your precasts, know your tank's ability to hold agro, don't nuke beyond the tank's ability to hold agro unless you're prepared to tank the mob and know it's not going to hurt the group, and stop dps'ing when you have agro unless you can kill the mob before it kills you.

[Ferunnia]

As a "full burn, all the time" type player, I've learned ways to not constantly tank the mobs my group's fighting. Prehealing is something I almost always do, since most days I'm healing for a legendary/treasured equipped tank in the harder instances of EoF. Hibernation/group hot?single hot is my preheal cycling, and I get aggro on the pull so rarely that it's not worth mentioning. A lot of the pre-heal aggro we get really is the tank's fault, but you have to know their capabilities before you do stuff like that. Take a few minutes of pulling to learn how easy it is to pull aggro at the beginning of the fight. If you pull aggro just off the ticks of your two regens, your tank isn't taunting enough on the pull or you'll have to give him more time on body pulls. (hibernate doesn't pull aggro on body pulls unless you cast it AFTER the mob sees the tank, casting it before doesn't do that). Also, there are certain levels where the tank's taunts aren't at their peak, usually at about the same time as your heals need to be replaced, so a tank a lower level than you will have issues holding aggro, and one your level will be at about the same capability, barring them running around with app4 spells. A tank can make do with adept 1s for most of their utility buffs, but their fastest recycling/hardest hitting attacks, and their taunts should be at adept 3 if possible to aid in aggro holding. That's questions you'll have to ask any tank that can't hold aggro when you aren't even trying to peel them. On the other hand, we can probably hold aggro on almost any other class since IMO we have the lowest hate deaggro per dps of any of the high dps classes. I mean, at full burn I get aggro before the wizzies at normal dps do, so that should tell you something. And on large groups we can peel almost anyone other than a tank in a raid. Two out of group aes and a single group ae attack mean we can really rack up additional mob aggro that the tank can't effectively control. Amends on a warlock in the group will keep the tank the center of aggro over us, but not much else will. So keep it easy on the aes. All of this can be negated by one thing. If you really feel the need to go full burn with vortex, think of getting animal form as well. if you're on a single mob with a lot of hp, then burn off a lot of heals, cast your hots, then go into animal form with the fastest weapon you can use, no matter how crappy it is (making macros to switch to the fast weapon and use animal form at the same time, then make another to switch out of animal form and back to your normal setup will help a lot). After about 5-10 seconds of animal form, if your mob isn't dead (usually on epic mobs) then use the second macro, and hit vortex and go full burn to start your burn with no aggro on the mob. If you peel aggro this way your tank is asleep or something. You can also use brambles BEFORE going full burn to remove healing aggro which gives you a clean slate and a lot of built up aggro to try to overcome. Hope some of this helps your dps endeavours. (P.S. get into the habit of curing everything. This makes it a heck of a lot easier to become an effective curer in the end game. It's almost impossibly hard to teach someone to cure without thinking of it if they've spent 70 levels not doing it).

[bubbaj6]

For cures: I don't know if it's like this for the default UI, but with Prophet Reborn, I just click the symbol next to their name and it casts that spell from my spellbook. Makes it SOOOO much easier than targeting them, clicking Cure Trauma, and then clicking back to target. I just click the plus sign and it goes away. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ApDa]

Lots of good responses, especially about the prehealing so I'm not gonna repeat what others said.  I would like to suggest a change to your order though.  This is along the same lines as the person that talked about people not playing their class fully.  It always upsets me when I see people not using debuffs.  Before you start dropping your DoTs and nukes, try debuffing.  This will both make the mob weaker to attack your tank(less healing for you) and make the group do more damage(killing stuff quicker).  And third, you mentioned problems stealing aggro at beginning of fight.  As you are debuffing, it gives tank more time to build up hate as debuffs dont build up that much hate.