BEHOLD - The NEW improved -Bard Fix suggestions

[Trabbart]

<p>Something about the old thread was probably not working well.  40 pages, it was almost a book.</p><p>So here is a fresh new clean slate. Enjoy.</p><p>1st suggestion: Communicate</p>

[Jal]

Bards currently : Debuffs Group benefit buffs (DPS/Hate etc) Bards in future : Give us more temporary buffs like potm/cob to make us actively useful (and remove the mezz on potm) dont make them just buttons to mash make us choose between them situationally. DPS please please please give this a boost, not to t1 standard or anything but unless you're full mastered, full raid geared with procs it generally feels like i'm tickling things rather than stabbing them.  The autoattack change made the epics laugh a little more but thats it.

[TheSleepyOne]

<ul><li>Add another 10% to Selo's <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></li><li>Remove the conc slot from our self-buff <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></li></ul><p>Please?</p>

[Asif]

<p>1) Remove conc slot for our self buff !!</p><p>2) Increase our dps( not to T1) why are furies out dpsing us are they not healers?</p><p>3) Remove mez from PTOM !!</p><p>4) Fix incombat run speed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>5) Fix our scaling issue with some of our group buffs and debuffs !!!</p><p>Thats all i got right now </p>

[Rijacki]

1. Make the self-buff no concentration. 2. Fix in-combat runspeed for Harbringer's. 3. Un-nerf the out-of-combat runspeed for Harbringer's.  Return it to pre-GU#33 1.5% per point. -or- Follow the runspeed progression of the rest of the Selo's and make the new one 2% faster. 4. Fix the progression issues on debuffs so a level 40-something debuff isn't better than it's T7 "upgrade". 5. Fix the progression issues on buffs so that a T7 adept III buff isn't 100% identical to a level 40-something Master buff. Thank you for fixing Zander's.

[Emerix]

<p>- Remove the daze and root from PoM and decrease its duration slightly .</p><p>- Don't do anything else please . I dont want to get nerfed again .</p>

[thecynic315]

Kallarn@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote>Bards currently : Debuffs Group benefit buffs (DPS/Hate etc) </blockquote> Problem is, every class does the above. The other problem is, this is all Bards do. So here are some sugestions: The way Buffs work in the game needs to be looked at.  What makes a buff require a con slot? Its not wat the buff does as there are too many examples of buffs that Bards and other classes have, ours take a con slot theres do not. Also with the new math and curves our buffs that used to be an extra 5% to say DPS for the group are now an extra 0-5% DPS. This has actualy made us worse, not better. We need stances. You the devs have stated as much when the new combat system was presented to us with EOFs release.  Currently a wite con mob is a 50-50 fight by increasing SKILLS, either for Offence or Deffence turns the tide of battle in the players favor. Other melee based classes have stances to help them, IN ADDATION to other buffs and in some cases AAs. Bards however have NOTHING,  no the BOON and Swan song line DO NOT count, our diffrent BUFFS DO NOT count, buffing Parry/Deffence DOES NOT COUNT. There is no upgrade to Seleos at lvl 69, do we really need to complain for another 17 months before the lvl 69 upgrade is added? and in the mean time the lvl 83 upgrade will be ignored? We may be too realient on our self buff vs other scouts, bassed on how much discussion and feedback has been given on our self buffs con slot requirement I think that Bards may depend on their self buff too much vs other scouts. We seem to lose out on TOO much power and due to itemization in the game, we lose out on TOO much DPS by droping our self buff. Also the power loss makes mataining our debuffs harder, in turn making part of our job harder. Zanders should possibly be a white spell that will Scale to lvl, currently at lvl 70 using Zanders will add an extra 5-10 damage to any spells. This makes the spell nearly useless for us, while conversly other classes can still use their Bloodline spells at lvl 70. Also the Dirge AA degrade does not effect ZAnders as it should. Harminozing Shot STILL consumes ammo even though this should have been changed last GU.  Harbengers Sonet, is not working correctly, it is NOT adding to in-combat runspeed as it sould. Our spells/CAs need to scale properly. Firstly the combat system has added to-hit bonuses to CAs/Resist bonuses to spells BASED on a mob the same lvl as the CA/Spell.....so Bards have a choice eiter upgrade to the next teirs version and have it be WORSE then the previous. OR use the previous teirs version and have a harder time hitting/landing the spell. For the troubys: Power draining as not been a useful strat since LU1, Power draining in the game should be looked at for ALL classes. Crowed Control has never been implemented properly in EQ2 and as such when CC was revamped the Troubys got hurt BAD. PoM should NOT daze/stun/mez/kill/make fun of a Trouby. Nit-picking The Dirge Sapping shot line needs to be renamed, as we are no long sapping/depleating/anything else-ing the mob. Non Bard Related....the flowing black silk sash is actualy a yellow cord.

[Gonzo550]

<p>I'd like to know why the mods haven't moved this thread already. It belongs in the class specific forum and not floating around the test forum where people comment about things that actually happen instead of people whining about what they want to see. Every other class has the decency to do their whining in their forum, why can't bards. </p><p>And come on, 40 pages already on this subject and you want more? I have a feeling the devs know you aren't happy and furthermore they gave you their answer - pathetic though their answer was. let this topic die or move it to where it belongs.</p>

[TheSleepyOne]

<cite>Gonzo550 wrote:</cite><blockquote>*Forum police stuff*</blockquote><p> Well... they didnt remove the 40 page thread... so either they don't care, or they find it apropriate that the thread resides in this forum.</p><p>Now... move along. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Jal]

Or we will continue to try and get positive changes made by making suggestions.

[Gonzo550]

every class hopes to get positive changes made though. Why do bards find it appropriate, and the mods I guess too, to discuss it in an area not designated for it. Perhaps the mod gestopo's tactics are starting to wear off on me. 

[Grimwell]

You have a very good point there my friend. Nothing wrong with the conversation itself, but the location is a bit off.

[VericSauvari]

<cite>Gonzo550 wrote:</cite><blockquote>every class hopes to get positive changes made though. Why do bards find it appropriate, and the mods I guess too, to discuss it in an area not designated for it. Perhaps the mod gestopo's tactics are starting to wear off on me. </blockquote> lemme guess...you play one of the favored dev classes? let me also guess...you /reported this thread at least 3 times as well. want to know why we feel its appropriate to shove our agenda infront of everyones faces? Well it probably has something to do with being neglected as a class and lied to by dev's about LU32 being a bard revamp update..well it came and went and nothing significant changed in the slightest? How about you go start policing the lore thread and get them to move eq1 lore out of there and keep it eq2 clean while the rest of us actually try and improve this game? kthxbye. anyone i find it extra hilarious that our 40 page thread which for the last 3 pages we have been calling the dev's out on for an explanation and our 1 page thread with NOTHING BUT POSITIVE SUGGESTIONS gets moved in under 2 days

[BlueBlood22]

Immmmm LOVIN this thread, me as a 70 Dirge really bring my hopes up. If these suggested changes were made we would be way more active in pvp and actually debuffing, buffing, what we do best. in which we should be =/, ALSO one last thing i will mention, sux having to cancel self buff to buff group sometimes =( 

[vladsamier]

<p>Remove the power drain components on Lore's and Sandra'... Power drains do NOTHING. You had the right idea when you took the power drain off of Dancing Blade and gave it the magical resist debuff, so tag something else on there... Dirge's equivilent heal them when they use their version of the spell.. Ours should do something at least as useful... If you plan on keeping the power drains on troubador's spells, either increase the amount of power it drains to be useful (although I doubt it ever will be anymore) or lower the amount of power that mobs have....</p>

[Rijacki]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have a very good point there my friend. Nothing wrong with the conversation itself, but the location is a bit off. </blockquote>Since there are both DIRGE and Troubie concerns in this thread, are you planning to copy it over to the Dirge forum as well?  BARDS are 2 classes.

[Agaxiq]

My suggestions: <ol><li>Crafted Instruments allow for more concentration.  Uses rare wood, T6, T7 only.  (T6 = 1 extra, T7 = 2 extra conc)</li><li>Allow the use of poisons</li><li>Change Troub Mez to 8 second stun</li></ol>Just my opinions - agressiv

[Novusod]

For the most part I don't even read the test forums so this really is the best place for the thread. On to the meat of the issue there is really only one valid point in this thread. That is to either remove the con slot requirement for Daelis' line or just make it into another group (AE) buff. Right now the buff is useless on raids and in most groups. On a whole I generally don't think there is anything majorly wrong with the troubador. That being said I do think the PvP troubador has some major issues. Something needs to be done with the way resists work and we need another knock back besides shield bash. If you let a brig or assassin get into melee range you are dead. Troubs need more tools to kite other players. Give mighty bello a knock back for the PvP players. Having a kite knock back might make the class worth playing on a PvP server. Only 11 lvl 70 troubadors on Vox really tells you something. Having mastered the PvE troub game I would really like to make a PvP troub but I am not going to make one until something is done.

[lilmohi]

<cite>Asif wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1) Remove conc slot for our self buff !!</p><p>2) Increase our dps( not to T1) why are furies out dpsing us are they not healers?</p></blockquote><p> 1.  I'd like to hear a good explanation why bards should be the only class that doesn't have to pay a concentration slot for self buffs?  The self buffs are very powerfull, and i know that a lot of people/classes have to give up their self buff so they can further buff their group.</p><p>2.  I'd also like to see what a bard's adjusted dps is based on the group buffs they give.  Honestly i would think since you are essentially a buffing class, if your group contribution isn't good enough it would be better to improve the buffs rather than personal dps.</p>

[Novusod]

<cite>lilmohi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Asif wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1) Remove conc slot for our self buff !!</p><p>2) Increase our dps( not to T1) why are furies out dpsing us are they not healers?</p></blockquote><p> 1.  I'd like to hear a good explanation why bards should be the only class that doesn't have to pay a concentration slot for self buffs?  The self buffs are very powerfull, and i know that a lot of people/classes have to give up their self buff so they can further buff their group.</p><p><i><span style="font-family: arial black,avant garde">A bard's self buff is not very powerfull at all. It gives an extra 160 int and some 80 agi that we don't need in raids. All in all it adds about 150 dps to my parse which is not going to make or break anyone.</span></i> </p><p>2.  I'd also like to see what a bard's adjusted dps is based on the group buffs they give.  Honestly i would think since you are essentially a buffing class, if your group contribution isn't good enough it would be better to improve the buffs rather than personal dps.</p><i><span style="font-family: arial black,avant garde">Our adjusted dps is the highest in the game bar none. I figure my adjusted dps is close 2500. My personal DPS is 800 and I add about 300 to four casters and an extra 100 for the healer with my debuffs doing an extra 400 damage not showing on parse. I for one one think there is nothing really wrong with the troub class.</span></i> </blockquote>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> <i>Our adjusted dps is the highest in the game bar none. I figure > my adjusted dps is close 2500. My personal DPS is 800 and I > add about 300 to four casters and an extra 100 for the healer > with my debuffs doing an extra 400 damage not showing on > parse. I for one one think there is nothing really wrong with > the troub class.</i></p><p><i>What's your DPS like when you aren't in a perfectly constructed group? (I commonly travel with a zerker, two healers and me.) What about your DPS when solo? Are you crediting the other classes for their buffs, too? I think you're way off when you claim we have the highest DPS in the game bar none. </i></p><p><i>Perhaps in a perfectly-constructed raid group, but I doubt it even there.</i></p>

[thecynic315]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have a very good point there my friend. Nothing wrong with the conversation itself, but the location is a bit off. </blockquote> Actualy ever since the removal of the BARD board there is no RIGHT location for this thread, also had we started this thread 2 weeks ago, in reffrence to the changes with the last GU then we would have been in the RIGHT forum. Also there is no General BUG forum where we can post General Bugs, you know bugs like the current combat system is still a bit out of whack with the way SKILLS work and how some classes have NO way to improve their combat skills, and improving combat SKILLs is exactly what the DEVS have said we need to do. Another general BUG in the game right now is the way BUFFS work, every class in the game right now has group buffs, many of which do EXACTLY the same thing, YET classes who can only be described as having the function of SUPPORT have WEAKER version of these BUFFS, and have extramly POOR scaling of the BUFFS which makes these classes WEAKER and LESS fun to play. And lastly a General Bug that has been in game since Nov 04 is that the Flowing BLack Silk Sash is a Yellow Chord belt.....see little details like that which are missed make us think that our larger concerns may never be addressed. EDIT------ Forgot to mention that when the combat changes were posted in the Test Feedback forum and the DEVs told the players to BUFF their skills, the 4th post or so was from <b><span style="color: #3333ff">VericSauvari asking if now BARDS would get stances.....that post has thus far been ignored......dang it why is this blue. </span></b>

[DUNN]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have a very good point there my friend. Nothing wrong with the conversation itself, but the location is a bit off. </blockquote> Can someone PM Grimwell and inform him that there exists 2 bard classes in this game contrary to what the Devs seem to beleive; and we wonder why we get the shaft every Game Update.

[thecynic315]

<cite>lilmohi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Asif wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1) Remove conc slot for our self buff !!</p><p>2) Increase our dps( not to T1) why are furies out dpsing us are they not healers?</p></blockquote><p> 1.  I'd like to hear a good explanation why bards should be the only class that doesn't have to pay a concentration slot for self buffs?  The self buffs are very powerfull, and i know that a lot of people/classes have to give up their self buff so they can further buff their group.</p></blockquote> Who besides Bards have to do this? Also why remove the CON SLOT well because BARDS may very well be TOO dependent on the extra power and DPS that we gain from our self buff Vs the other Scout classes.  Also another reson is we have to pay a CON SLOT PER BUFF that we run while other classes with similar BUFFS do not. I really dont think any more needs to be said on the subject of WHY...what really needs to now be discussed is the HOW WILL IT WORK part.  And right now only a DEV can answer that.

[Ballads]

  Here my list for troubadours from the perspective of a lvl 70 daily raiding troubadour . 1   Remove the con slot of are self buff or give us STANCES. Instead of making the proc a generic when target get hits reactive proc, Make them offensive. The dirges off melee and the troubadors off hostile spells.   2  Take HARMFUL effects off are buffs - ei Precision of the maestro -remove the Daze effect troubs  have been given the short end of the stick here always compared to dirges CoB with auto attack up grade this difference is much more since they suffer no penalty.   3  Fix what you told us you had fixed in the last LU  but still didnt fix omg how many times does it take to get 1 spell fixed . ZANDER's was mentioned specifically in the patch notes this last time of an example and the it was NOT FIXED. Bard AA line Harbrigers IN COMBAT run speed is not working at all. WHY did many class get in combat boost to run speed and improved sprint aa's if yoou were nerfing bards ? Are we not supposed to the fasted run speed Buffer's in game ???   4  Dps upgrades through spell over haul, Not generic auto attack upgrade. Up spelldamage of dd's 10%. Make DOTs tick Faster. Take out 2 of are con slot buffs you chose and make them short duratioon buffs we have to continually recast but make there effects 3 Times more effective or add NEW EFFECTS to them.  5 Debuff scaling is way OFF. Debuffs need Scale exactly opposite  of the Stat Curve . Base amounts of increase Per Tier needs to be Doubled. here is my original and proposed changes with the bard Str & sagi debuff line. spell  -         lvl 19 reproaching discante    lvl 33 discouraging discante    lvl 47 oppressive discante    lvl 61  disheartening discante   adept1      36 -> 36                                 61 -> 86                                  88 -> 115                             121 -> 188   adept3      43 -> 43                                 71 -> 126                                102 -> 163                           134 -> 196   master1    49 -> 49                                  81 -> 146                                117 -> 169                          153 -> 225   6   Power drains are useless any where except pvp and even there ares are fairly ineffective. Make them taps at least instead of strait drains and up the return on essence line also to boost are personal power return .

[Antryg Mistrose]

Classes that have stances (bar the tiny mage one) have 2 stances, offense and defence, with tradeoffs between them.  Asking for our single self buff to become concentrationless while keeping it in anything like its current form is wishful thinking.  Either ask for TWO stances, as per other fighters/scouts or ask for something that other similar classes don't have to waste a concentration slot on to be made concentrationless for us too.  Examples are Hyran's / Alin's  and Bria's If quoting 'adjusted' dps.  Compare your 'adjusted' dps (ie all the buffs/debuffs that get credited to or help other players), to a Assassin/Ranger's personal dps, not a T2 class or lower, as if you want to include credit for buffs then you can't assert that our overall dps should be lower than class with fewer group buffs.  Or better, do it for a brigand or swash.  How much of the total raid dps are you going to increase their 'adjusted' dps by, to account for dispatch? I can't speak for dirges (not being one anymore), but the increase to autoattack damage did not help my dps in any measureable way.  I cast PotM every time its up, so for 30sec of every fight i have zero, zip, nadda autoattacks happening. I do disagree about ONE of our powertaps though - Steal Essence provides enough power to keep our debuffs running if you cast it whenever its up.  Not a lot extra to do any damage though (see PotM above), so if that is supposed to make up for our not autoattacking (vs dirges autoattacking like crazy during CoB), it ain't working.  Our other powertap that does autoattack levels of damage and supposedly reduces the mobs power is a waste of time.

[Blakeavon]

<p>lol</p><p>we finally get visited by a dev... alas not one willing to be part of the discussion to tell us what Bard plans there are for the future but to tell us to disappear back to the place that they never visit.</p><p>when are we finally be going to be shown a little respect and have questions answered and not just be told to shut up <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Lornick]

I don't think the self buff should just lose the conc cost.  I think the final ability in the Int KoS AA tree should drop the concentration cost for the self buff.  Then it would A.) make the int line final ability not be a total joke (coin toss = [Removed for Content]?) B.) give bards who feel strongly about the issue a way to earn what they want.  I think that is a good compromise.

[Spider]

<cite>Lornick wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think the self buff should just lose the conc cost.  I think the final ability in the Int KoS AA tree should drop the concentration cost for the self buff.  Then it would A.) make the int line final ability not be a total joke (coin toss = [I cannot control my vocabulary]?) B.) give bards who feel strongly about the issue a way to earn what they want.  I think that is a good compromise.</blockquote> accualy i find that to be a truely reasonable compromize and would gladly take it if offered

[Cuz]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have a very good point there my friend. Nothing wrong with the conversation itself, but the location is a bit off. </blockquote> You want to hear something funny? I thought for sure a dev was actually addressing bard concerns. No, no instead you sent it to the obscurity that is the troub forum. Mighty nice of you. You going to move all the other threads in test that don't belong? You have some work cut out for you bud.

[TheSummoned]

Grimwell, you had the following forums on disposal: Gameplay Discusion Combat Discusion Spells, Abilities and Combat Arts And of those you chose to put a thread that concernes both dirges and troubadors in the troubador forums? /boggle

[Grimwell]

Naturally, now the problem becomes that while this is in an appropriate forum that no longer chooses between one of two classes -- it's no longer where a dev looking for Bard class input would first think to visit. That said, there is no clean compromise and no further moves will be made.

[Cuz]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Naturally, now the problem becomes that while this is in an appropriate forum that no longer chooses between one of two classes -- <span style="color: #cc0033">it's no longer where a dev looking for Bard class input would first think to visit. </span> That said, there is no clean compromise and no further moves will be made. </blockquote> Little spiteful aren't you? You'd make a great troub.

[Deggials]

Agaxiq@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>My suggestions: <ol><li>Crafted Instruments allow for more concentration.  Uses rare wood, T6, T7 only.  (T6 = 1 extra, T7 = 2 extra conc)</li><li>Allow the use of poisons</li><li>Change Troub Mez to 8 second stun</li></ol>Just my opinions - agressiv </blockquote><p> Why just tier 6 and 7? why not start at tier 1 and improve stats on way up and have different stats/instruments?</p>

[TheSummoned]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Naturally, now the problem becomes that while this is in an appropriate forum that no longer chooses between one of two classes -- it's no longer where a dev looking for Bard class input would first think to visit. That said, there is no clean compromise and no further moves will be made. </blockquote>Like it or not, this thread is now in 3 different forums <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Blakeavon]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Naturally, now the problem becomes that while this is in an appropriate forum that no longer chooses between one of two classes -- it's no longer where a dev looking for Bard class input would first think to visit. That said, there is no clean compromise and no further moves will be made. </blockquote><p> thus in turn we loss all hope of being given any true loving by the devs...</p><p>our class will become buried just like this thread will be in a few days. if the devs didnt respond to a 38 page thread that was constantly at the top of a board for months, they arent going to respond to this.</p><p>and this way when this thread gets buried, the devs can happily say we didnt see your concerns cos we couldnt find it so therefore how should we know that there is something that needs to be done.</p><p>basically i want to know why after many months suddenly you want to bury this tpoic without even answering our concerns?</p>

[Rijacki]

<cite>lilmohi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Asif wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1) Remove conc slot for our self buff !!</p><p>2) Increase our dps( not to T1) why are furies out dpsing us are they not healers?</p></blockquote><p> 1.  I'd like to hear a good explanation why bards should be the only class that doesn't have to pay a concentration slot for self buffs?  The self buffs are very powerfull, and i know that a lot of people/classes have to give up their self buff so they can further buff their group.</p><p>2.  I'd also like to see what a bard's adjusted dps is based on the group buffs they give.  Honestly i would think since you are essentially a buffing class, if your group contribution isn't good enough it would be better to improve the buffs rather than personal dps.</p></blockquote>1. Other classes do have concentrationless self-buffs and even concentrationless group buffs.  - One of the group buffs of both dirges and troubies (Bria's) is similar to a group buff of illusionists (might be conjurers, too).  Theirs is more power regen per tick and has no concentration requirement.  Ours requires concentration. - Other classes, such as wizards (I have one, easier to look at), have a self buff that not only provides stat increases (like ours) but also something for combat (the wizard one is a ward, the dirge one is a weak damage shield) but theirs is no concentration, ours is. 2. Bards, both dirges and troubies, have made many many comments on the scaling of our buffs and debuffs.  - We actually have buffs which provide the exact same improvement as a level 40-ish Master and a T7 Adept III (and either the same or a +1 difference to the T7 Master).  The "enhance" achievement for that buff would enhance them equally the same.  So, what's the point of getting the upgrade? - For dirges, we even have a KoS achievement which doesn't increase -any- of our skills nor any one else's in our group (specifically the acheivement which now increases the taunt related skill.. gah at work.. no memory of names.. and does nothing for the dirges' only hate song, the single target Hyran's). Though bards are scouts, neither a dirge nor a bard is a dps class. Many of the fabeled scout drops specify they're not for dirge or troubie.  Many of the mage drops would be great for bards, but also are not.

[Agaxiq]

<cite>Deggials wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agaxiq@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>My suggestions: <ol><li>Crafted Instruments allow for more concentration.  Uses rare wood, T6, T7 only.  (T6 = 1 extra, T7 = 2 extra conc)</li><li>Allow the use of poisons</li><li>Change Troub Mez to 8 second stun</li></ol>Just my opinions - agressiv </blockquote><p> Why just tier 6 and 7? why not start at tier 1 and improve stats on way up and have different stats/instruments?</p></blockquote> Fine by me, but extra conc would only apply in T6 and T7, otherwise it would be very unbalanced - a bard could have all buffs up if it went up 1 per tier starting at T1. They probably could go in the doll slots instead of ranged, and have some stats similar to hex dolls, as an idea (with the extra concentration in T6 and T7) agressiv

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>lilmohi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Asif wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1) Remove conc slot for our self buff !!</p><p>2) Increase our dps( not to T1) why are furies out dpsing us are they not healers?</p></blockquote><p> 1.  I'd like to hear a good explanation why bards should be the only class that doesn't have to pay a concentration slot for self buffs?  The self buffs are very powerfull, and i know that a lot of people/classes have to give up their self buff so they can further buff their group.</p><p>2.  I'd also like to see what a bard's adjusted dps is based on the group buffs they give.  Honestly i would think since you are essentially a buffing class, if your group contribution isn't good enough it would be better to improve the buffs rather than personal dps.</p></blockquote>1. Other classes do have concentrationless self-buffs and even concentrationless group buffs.  - One of the group buffs of both dirges and troubies (Bria's) is <span style="font-size: x-small"><b>similar to a group buff of illusionists (might be conjurers, too).  Theirs is more power regen per tick and has no concentration requirement.</b></span>  Ours requires concentration. - Other classes, such as wizards (I have one, easier to look at), have a self buff that not only provides stat increases (like ours) but also something for combat (the wizard one is a ward, the dirge one is a weak damage shield) but theirs is no concentration, ours is. 2. Bards, both dirges and troubies, have made many many comments on the scaling of our buffs and debuffs.  - We actually have buffs which provide the exact same improvement as a level 40-ish Master and a T7 Adept III (and either the same or a +1 difference to the T7 Master).  The "enhance" achievement for that buff would enhance them equally the same.  So, what's the point of getting the upgrade? - For dirges, we even have a KoS achievement which doesn't increase -any- of our skills nor any one else's in our group (specifically the acheivement which now increases the taunt related skill.. gah at work.. no memory of names.. and does nothing for the dirges' only hate song, the single target Hyran's). Though bards are scouts, neither a dirge nor a bard is a dps class. Many of the fabeled scout drops specify they're not for dirge or troubie.  Many of the mage drops would be great for bards, but also are not. </blockquote>Enchanters (both sorts) are the other power regeners, and although collectively including all spell lines they have more power abilities, their main concentrationless group buff is actually a bit less in T7, as it comes earlier in the spell replacement progression.  58 for bard, 51 for enchanter (Master1 with all enhancements) if memory serves.  It does however come without the concentration slot requirement, as does Coercer's Enraging Demenour (hate buff), so thats why its unfair that Hyran's and Alin's do.  ELEVEN concentration slot using spells apart from our self buff, FIVE concentration slots.  Is maths in short supply at SOE? In reply to "<b>I'd also like to see what a bard's adjusted dps is based on the group buffs they give.  Honestly i would think since you are essentially a buffing class, if your group contribution isn't good enough it would be better to improve the buffs rather than personal dps.</b>"  Sheesh, on that reasoning Tanks are a tanking class so take away their dps.  Priests too.  Rogues are a debuffing class, so take away their dps.....  Do you have any idea of just how pitiful the personal DPS of a troubador is?  (Dirges are slightly higher in my experience).  Our group buffs would have to be downright godly to make up for that, and once cast, afk here we come, with your reasoning. p.s.  My illusionist dps's 1.5-2x my troubador, and by your narrow definition is also a buff/utility class  (its also a lot more fun/scary to play on raids as all the spells actually work).

[thecynic315]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>lilmohi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Asif wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1) Remove conc slot for our self buff !!</p></blockquote><p> 1.  I'd like to hear a good explanation why bards should be the only class that doesn't have to pay a concentration slot for self buffs?  The self buffs are very powerfull, and i know that a lot of people/classes have to give up their self buff so they can further buff their group.</p></blockquote>1. Other classes do have concentrationless self-buffs and even concentrationless group buffs.  - One of the group buffs of both dirges and troubies (Bria's) is similar to a group buff of illusionists (might be conjurers, too).  Theirs is more power regen per tick and has no concentration requirement.  Ours requires concentration. - Other classes, such as wizards (I have one, easier to look at), have a self buff that not only provides stat increases (like ours) but also something for combat (the wizard one is a ward, the dirge one is a weak damage shield) but theirs is no concentration, ours is. </blockquote> See THIS is EXACTLY what I mean when I say the way BUFFS work in the game needs to be looked at.  CON SLOT requirements seem to be hap-hazardly assigned to BUFFS reguardless of function and MORE on game design from NOV 04 and LU 13. The combat system has changed at least twice since LU13. BARDS have also been changed since then,  mostly to be made weaker.

[Sebastien]

<p>My thought is that bards need something that serves an equivalent function to stances for tanks.</p><p>Stances allow SOE to justify letting a fighter do high(er) damage because the fighter voluntarily sacrifices something (defense).  This allows for a wider variety of solo options, and also more group options as well.  It's a good thing, but doesn't upset game balance because the fighter has to CHOOSE between the classic high defense low/moderate dps role of the "tank", or a modified higher dps / lower defense version.</p><p>The problem with bards is that, as they stand today, they must be balanced based on what they contribute, through their buffs, to a full group.  Not many people really enjoy being a totem pole of buffs; folks want to feel that their gameplay is also compelling.  Moreover, because they are balanced based on what their buffs do to six people, they naturally become underpowered in smaller groups (duos and trios are common), and very much underpowered when solo. </p><p>Bards needs an equivalent choice that is appropriate for their class.  You need to give bards the option to shift from a buff-heavy role in groups to a role where they voluntarily give up some of their group utility in exchange for more powerful self buffing / higher dps / etc.</p><p>For example, a song that took multiple (3?) concentration slots, but <u>greatly</u> increased the bard's dps so that it were closer to other scouts.  This way bards that are solo/duo/trio can feel effective, without making the class overpowered in full groups.</p>

[Ciarr]

<p>let me start by stating that there is nothing wrong with bards, noone is dening the fact that they bring a lot to groups and raids, I know that if I see bard LFG I will type '/tell' with lightspeed to get this bard in my group or raid.</p><p>theoretically bards have amazing utility, about 11-12 buffs lots of tools, it's hard to name something bards can't do... except that with concentration slots and 3-4 buffs groups pretty much always needed (e.g. for dirge typically: bria,rinas,boon,PoS(if in MTgroup)) it's more like 6-7 buffs competing for 1-2 slots.... lots of utility? hardly...</p><p>comparing with druid who can keep up similar number of buffs (around 10), 3 are concetration based, 1 require a conc slot and can be casted on multiple targets, all others are concentration free</p><p>looking at the most common requests: 1. no conc self buff... extra hmm 150/190int(dirge/troub) at T7 master... hardly overpowered for a class which needs str and int for dmg and agi for power... 2. speed increase... how overpowering would that be??? 3. converting a few commonly used buffs to no-conc (e.g. bria, hyrans)</p><p>I see absolutely no reason to deny request 1 and 2, it really looks like SoE devs are missing the point here, game is suppose to be fun, if an overwelming majority of players playing this class asks for a change which is faaaaaar from balance-breaking it would be reasonable to implement it to satisfy customers, it's not like people will start screaming if bards who are among the most underplayed classes will start doing 100dps more...</p><p>I had a lot of fun playing a dirge... till I tried other classes and realised how easier life can be if you don't need 5 other people for a class to shine, playing  a baby dirge again.... maybe till I get more levels SoE rethinks why these bards concern treads are poping and poping and poping again...</p>

[Aenielle]

It just feels that Bards are stuck in time. All the other classes seem to move on, even if slowly, advancing, progressing and evolving. And Bards were left somwhere behind and forgoten. So sad <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[lilmohi]

<cite>Ciarrai wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>let me start by stating that there is nothing wrong with bards, noone is dening the fact that they bring a lot to groups and raids, I know that if I see bard LFG I will type '/tell' with lightspeed to get this bard in my group or raid.</p><p>theoretically bards have amazing utility, about 11-12 buffs lots of tools, it's hard to name something bards can't do... except that with concentration slots and 3-4 buffs groups pretty much always needed (e.g. for dirge typically: bria,rinas,boon,PoS(if in MTgroup)) it's more like 6-7 buffs competing for 1-2 slots.... lots of utility? hardly...</p><p>comparing with druid who can keep up similar number of buffs (around 10), 3 are concetration based, 1 require a conc slot and can be casted on multiple targets, all others are concentration free</p><p>looking at the most common requests: 1. no conc self buff... extra hmm 150/190int(dirge/troub) at T7 master... hardly overpowered for a class which needs str and int for dmg and agi for power... 2. speed increase... how overpowering would that be??? 3. converting a few commonly used buffs to no-conc (e.g. bria, hyrans)</p><p>I see absolutely no reason to deny request 1 and 2, it really looks like SoE devs are missing the point here, game is suppose to be fun, if an overwelming majority of players playing this class asks for a change which is faaaaaar from balance-breaking it would be reasonable to implement it to satisfy customers, it's not like people will start screaming if bards who are among the most underplayed classes will start doing 100dps more...</p><p>I had a lot of fun playing a dirge... till I tried other classes and realised how easier life can be if you don't need 5 other people for a class to shine, playing  a baby dirge again.... maybe till I get more levels SoE rethinks why these bards concern treads are poping and poping and poping again...</p></blockquote><p>I think you have a better argument for making the mana regen no conc since the chanter equivalent isn't, and at least other scouts (and i think most if not all classes) pay for their self buff.</p><p>However as you (and many others) pointed out, in a good group bards are already very strong, it is just that in small groups/solo that you guy's suffer a lot.  However opening more concentration slots exponentially adds to your "group dps" but does little for your solo viability.  As someone else mentioned, powerful self buffs that require concentration would be able to boost solo dps while not overpowering group dps.  Perhaps a self haste or proc buff, and a self ds or reactive heal.</p><p>The beauty/uniqueness of bards is that they actually have to choose which buff layout best benefits the particular group/situation they are in.  The more concentration slots that are opened up the more bards become mindless buffers just like every other class in the game.  If you add self dps w/o lowering group dps then you run the risk of invalidating the predator type classes.  Also if you make it so you can keep up all your group buffs, aside from being overpowering, you would also make it pointless to ever put more than one bard in a group due to stacking issues.</p><p>Bards are already a seriously fun class to play, and the only reason i ended up deleting my bard was because it was so difficult to solo and i enjoy soloing too much.</p>

[Mildavyn]

<p>A troub and a dirge in the same group only have to worry about two spells conflicting, Brias (mana regen) and Harls/Raxxyls (STR/STA for troub, STR/AGI for dirge, STR portion doesnt stack) Other than those 2 buffs, there are no other buffs which conflict.</p><p>However, two troubs in the one group are ALREADY stepping all over each others toes, giving them the ability to cast 1 more of their group buffs is not oging to change that. If you have 2 troubs in the group, one of them will be running resist buffs, because there is nothing else to run. None of our buffs stack with each other, otherwise 6 troubs in one group would own, and be almost completely invincible (167/tick hp regen each, 266pt wards for elemental/magical damage each, +30 defense and 30 haste... each, get the point?). I assume dirges have similar stacking issues.</p>

[Skua]

Ranged slot = Instruments? Guitar of x  add +10% to lala song flute = add something to XXX song.... isnt that hard SOE! bards need love! all eq2 players agree with this............ same goes for enchanters tho =/ bot buffers / debuffers / autofollowbuffbots need love imo....

[Kurindor_Mythecnea]

Sebastien@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><p>My thought is that bards need something that serves an equivalent function to stances for tanks.</p><p>Stances allow SOE to justify letting a fighter do high(er) damage because the fighter voluntarily sacrifices something (defense).  This allows for a wider variety of solo options, and also more group options as well.  It's a good thing, but doesn't upset game balance because the fighter has to CHOOSE between the classic high defense low/moderate dps role of the "tank", or a modified higher dps / lower defense version.</p><p>The problem with bards is that, as they stand today, they must be balanced based on what they contribute, through their buffs, to a full group.  Not many people really enjoy being a totem pole of buffs; folks want to feel that their gameplay is also compelling.  Moreover, because they are balanced based on what their buffs do to six people, they naturally become underpowered in smaller groups (duos and trios are common), and very much underpowered when solo. </p><p>Bards needs an equivalent choice that is appropriate for their class.  You need to give bards the option to shift from a buff-heavy role in groups to a role where they voluntarily give up some of their group utility in exchange for more powerful self buffing / higher dps / etc.</p><p>For example, a song that took multiple (3?) concentration slots, but <u>greatly</u> increased the bard's dps so that it were closer to other scouts.  This way bards that are solo/duo/trio can feel effective, without making the class overpowered in full groups.</p></blockquote>This would be awesome for Bards, no doubt. Something like this, along with a few other tweaks, would greatly uplift the current state of Bards. Something like the equivalent to their maximum DPS/Haste increase, 10 technique points in offensive abilities, and an equal amount increase in the value that their self buff adds, for both Strength and Intelligence, would create an awesome implement for balancing this situation. Hey, maybe even make it the Bard's Strength end-line ability. Paikis@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>A troub and a dirge in the same group only have to worry about two spells conflicting, Brias (mana regen) and Harls/Raxxyls (STR/STA for troub, STR/AGI for dirge, STR portion doesnt stack) Other than those 2 buffs, there are no other buffs which conflict.</p><p>However, two troubs in the one group are ALREADY stepping all over each others toes, giving them the ability to cast 1 more of their group buffs is not oging to change that. If you have 2 troubs in the group, one of them will be running resist buffs, because there is nothing else to run. None of our buffs stack with each other, otherwise 6 troubs in one group would own, and be almost completely invincible (167/tick hp regen each, 266pt wards for elemental/magical damage each, +30 defense and 30 haste... each, get the point?). I assume dirges have similar stacking issues.</p></blockquote>This is definitely pointless. If you are going to optimize for an allocation of each of the Bards in your group, you need to receive the full benefits of such. Such voiding <i><b>needs to go</b></i>. The change of allotting the Bard Intelligence end-line ability the removal of the Bard's self buff Concentration point would be excellent, and was along the lines of what I was thinking of (the attribution of 1 extra Concentration point).

[Jordinn]

<p>FWIW my 2.5 cents as a troubador who has played from launch until now, and currently plays in a t7 raiding guild.</p><p>What we need:</p><p> Generally we need more interactivity, and a way to make the class more than just a buff bot with some light DPS thrown in.  I fully realize we bring a lot to the table for groups and raids, but solo play is borked (compensation for the power we bring to groups and raids?) and some of our stuff is just broken.  Folks above have already mentioned run speed (moderate concern IMO), buff and debuff issues (I'd ask this gets looked at ASAP), and thoughts on our self-buff (I'd say either drop conc or split it into two conc buffs for offense and defense and increase the stats and abilities on each).  But really there may be some short cuts that might help.</p><p>Change the way bard buffs operate:</p><p> If a buff is a conc buff (comments above about rationalizing this are well made, and this should be looked at) and a conc slot is open, the buff casts with no expiration timer and it consumes conc.  However if all Conc slots are full, the buff still casts, but instead of a no expiration conc buff, it casts as a simple spell; it takes power to cast and has a duration of 20-45 sec or whatever is right for the song.  This would allow the resist buffs to come into play way more often and would require timing and thought on the part of the bard to use them.  Make Quiron's a conc regen tick, or a castable group heal (for 300-500 or something like that?).  Requiem of Reflection instead of proccing reflection would put up reflection at x% and each reflection would draw power from the bard.  Sorry Dirges I don't know your spells enough to put suggestions in for yours but I think this gets the idea across.</p><p> The ongoing nerf of mez and charm have been large scale let downs for solo play, and even in groups.  They were not really a large factor in raiding.  They were, however, listed as some of our class defining skill.  Dirges got Fear and Rez if I recall correctly.  Dirges rez is very useful in raids, fear is near useless from what I understand but dirges reading keep me honest there.  Can we get some parity between the classes there and balance the usefulness of these bard spells?  I don't need to mez Epic x4 mobs, but each class should have something that this "class defining" spell can do in solo, group, and raid play that makes it useful to some degree.  How about Merge Mez / Fear into a single bard spell, which for non-epics mezzes as the troub version works today (if you want to stay themed the dirge version is freezes with terror, troubs are entranced by music) and on Epics the spell is a short duration stun with the usual "Epics are invulnerable" after it is ends.  Give both classes Rez and Charm in their current states or make the spell that If Friendly, ressurects target, If Enemy briefly charms target (Epic immunity to charm still applies).</p><p> There are probably a ton more ways to balance and improve bards, many have been presented in the many suggestion threads, and I hope that in the near future the bards will be handed the bone they deserve. </p><p> EDIT: silly typos</p>

[rollando]

<p> The usefulness of bards isn't an issue, we all agree on that.</p><p> The issues are gameplay based. In a raid with a single dirge and no troubadour, the dirge will have plenty to do with his debuffer / combat rezzer role. In such a situation, even having 0 DPS wouldn't be that an issue ... after all, one won't deal much damage while running after dead bodies scattered all over the place !  Add a second bard, and the debuffing role is halved. That's not that much left to do, and it's even less if the second bard is a troub, with no rezzing abilities.  I don't know what the situation is on other servers, but, on Splitpaw, at peak times, there are 3-5 non anonymous level 70 troubadours online. Because they're just not fun to play ...</p>

[Chefren]

Slamdar@Oasis wrote: <blockquote><p>Remove the power drain components on Lore's and Sandra'... Power drains do NOTHING. You had the right idea when you took the power drain off of Dancing Blade and gave it the magical resist debuff, so tag something else on there... Dirge's equivilent heal them when they use their version of the spell.. Ours should do something at least as useful... If you plan on keeping the power drains on troubador's spells, either increase the amount of power it drains to be useful (although I doubt it ever will be anymore) or lower the amount of power that mobs have....</p></blockquote> Yeah power drains are worthless in PvE. Maybe in PvP as well, I don't know. Maybe changing them into power <b>taps </b>would be a good idea?

[Cuz]

Tifs@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote><p> Because they're just not fun to play ...</p></blockquote> Bingo.

[Trapfinder_Bracegird]

<b><span style="font-size: xx-large; color: #ff0000; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif">INSTRUMENTS</span></b>

[Spider]

<cite>SkuaII wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ranged slot = Instruments? Guitar of x  add +10% to lala song flute = add something to XXX song.... isnt that hard SOE! bards need love! all eq2 players agree with this............ same goes for enchanters tho =/ bot buffers / debuffers / autofollowbuffbots need love imo.... </blockquote> id say more like taking the hex doll spot as i wouldnt give up my bow for anything ts a kiting lifesaver

[Antryg Mistrose]

I couldn't care less about instruments, and the run speed also is a minor issue. I do care about low personal dps I do care about a signature spell (precison of the maestro) that dazes/roots, a scout (with "rogue autoattack dps&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I do care about 12 spells competing for 5 concentration slots, especially as the developers seem hell bent on improving the worst ones, so they might actually be worth casting. I do care that coercers do not pay a conc slot for their hate buff, and bards do I do care that enchanters do not pay a conc slot for their main power buff, and bards do I do care that on raids 2 major spell lines do not work at all (charm / mezz), leaving us with a lot less to do than most classes.  Nothing that makes or breaks the raid (bar possibly bladedance).  ie no lifesaving heal, rez, damage spell, deaggro, intercept, memwipe, fakedeath, ... just debuffs to keep up, and the odd person to cast Jester's on.  (having raided as a MT Templar, Dirge, Illusionist I can't believe how little troubs ACTIVE role matters)

[Nainitsuj]

<p>I can get over the fact that I do nothing on a raid other than buff.  But the one thing that bugs the snot out of me is..</p><p>Troubs are the only class with Mez as their class defining ability.  The Illusi is a stun, the coercer is a daze (or is it the other way around) and we're the only class that isn't allowed to use our class defining ability on a raid.</p><p>If troubs were to get an overhaul I'd like to see them more ranged oriented.  More spells, less CA.  If CA's have to stay, make them bow attacks.</p>

[Ykalon]

<cite>SkuaII wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ranged slot = Instruments? Guitar of x  add +10% to lala song flute = add something to XXX song.... isnt that hard SOE! bards need love! all eq2 players agree with this............ same goes for enchanters tho =/ bot buffers / debuffers / autofollowbuffbots need love imo.... </blockquote>No not the ranged slot please. Just use the charm slot instead. Or you are moving us even further into the land of being good ONLY for buffs. Can't use a bow if you got your lute equipped.

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Nainitsuj wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can get over the fact that I do nothing on a raid other than buff.  But the one thing that bugs the snot out of me is..</p><p><b><span style="color: #ffff00">Troubs are the only class with Mez as their class defining ability.</span></b>  The Illusi is a stun, the coercer is a daze (or is it the other way around) and we're the only class that isn't allowed to use our class defining ability on a raid.</p><p>If troubs were to get an overhaul I'd like to see them more ranged oriented.  More spells, less CA.  If CA's have to stay, make them bow attacks.</p></blockquote> I think you are stretching there.  Enchanters have mezz as their class defining ability (or more generally crowd control). Half a dozen mobs can be permanently locked down.  Troubadours have 1 mezz which can barely lock down 2 mobs.  Same for charm - Coercers can perma charm, Troubs have a few seconds. Troubs defining role, is group buff-bot, and that ain't fun.  I don't say bards as I don't think Dirges have it so bad - The extra utility they get as a scout class buffing melee, with rezz and a heal make them more involved to play, and more coherent as a class. Even just minor things, like their instant cast AoE being a blue one, and ours a green is in their favour (Sunchild/Moonchild for example). A scout who hangs with mages, yet doesn't have much in the way of nukes, and just the one deaggro, doesn't seem finished.  More mage assistance would perhaps change that.  Things like: <ul><li>Things like Requiem of Reflection being a non-maintained single cast spell, or an equivalent melee one</li><li>A Fakedeath or big emergency deaggro perhaps</li><li>A damage enhancer like PotM as a single cast spell like Jesters</li></ul>Put personally I'd prefer 1 or 2 decent damage spells, that get attributed to me - just to move me above priests in solo dps and raid parsing.

[thecynic315]

Well all lets keep this thread alive... we got 1 bug fix taken care of, only 9999999999999999999999999999999 to go!!!!! Though I think we do have to say thanks, as this was the FASTEST they have EVER fixed a BARD bug

[Und3rt0w]

<p>I recently started one as my main Alt, and so far, I'm pretty underwhelmed.  I really think some focus needs to be made to differentiate the bard classes (as people have mentioned, instruments would do this in a big way)because right now, they're lesser parts of other classes. </p><p> We don't even get unique armor right?  Isn't it the same as the Swashy?  Weak.</p><p> We definitely need greater dps ability, and the ability to cast more of our group buffs if that's all we're going to be good for.</p>

[Faelgalad]

<p>IF we ever get this fixed.... </p><p>Guess we will never be similar to an Vanguard Bard <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>An special Troubadour/Dirge Teleport would be an nice Idea. </p><p>For Troubadour's porting to Taverns in Norrath, with collecting beer cups, similar to the leafs by the druids. </p><p>And to graveyards for Dirges, as the mourn more <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Aenielle]

Actually a group teleport spell to taverns sounds FUN!!!! That is why it will most likely never be implemented for bards, we are here to buff-bot and not to have fun after all. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jal]

lol you can see it now. Raid leader "Mob at 5% full burn" Bard "im thirsty" *teleports raid to tavern*