Come on show some effort people.....

[Trabbart]

<p>We still, and i believe since LU13 at least, are the class board with the least posts.</p><p> POST!!</p><p> Post more whines, more "happy to live in denial"s, more "ideas that never will see the light of day"s, more "my best friend loves my mom"s and anything else that comes to mind.</p><p> But pls lets leave this permanent last place.</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

Whats to post?  The bard "fixes" were a joke.  We are still the lowest personal dpsing non-priests.  Oops, actually Furys always outparse me, so not even that. So/so solo - Mezz and even our crappy charm are nice toys. Fine in the right group  (dirges bring more to most groups as there is always 2 guaranteed meleers - but no guarantee on a caster), Boring on raids, where the only decisons are who to cast Jester's on next, and when to hit Bladedance/PotM I do suggest /bugging PotM's daze/root constantly, just to annoy the developers if nothing else. (It sure as hell annoys me, with my "Rogue Level Autoattack" ) Perhaps a concerted campain to get the concentration slot requirement of Alin's (& Hyran's) and Bria's removed so there is actually some choice in what buffs to run? Asking for Charm/Mezz durations to be extended is a waste of effort (and doesn't help raiders anyway) -  you can see how overpowered the developers think they are by looking how little  the EoF AA lines extend them (0.5sec and 1sec / point respectively)

[ForgottenFoundling]

<p>Eh, what's to say...</p><p> I'm not happy with the changes and I think it's a joke that SOE thinks that we have "game breaking" utility so they need to keep us in the place we are.</p><p> I'd say we've undergone more changes to our fundamental class than any other class out there and I believe that entitles us to be a little "overpowered" (basically a "bone" for all of the people that have had their class altered beyond original description).</p><p>Group buffs for the lose.  Few help everyone in the group appreciably.  They need to either make them more powerful and scale according to makeup, or boost them up across the board.</p><p> Honestly, I think the lack of communication here is more about apathy from a bored and unplayed class than it is contentment.  So, I'm fine with it being the graveyard it is.</p>

[Spider]

Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>Whats to post?  The bard "fixes" were a joke.  We are still the lowest personal dpsing non-priests.  Oops, actually Furys always outparse me, so not even that. So/so solo - Mezz and even our crappy charm are nice toys. Fine in the right group  (dirges bring more to most groups as there is always 2 guaranteed meleers - but no guarantee on a caster), Boring on raids, where the only decisons are who to cast Jester's on next, and when to hit Bladedance/PotM I do suggest /bugging PotM's daze/root constantly, just to annoy the developers if nothing else. (It sure as hell annoys me, with my "Rogue Level Autoattack" ) Perhaps a concerted campain to get the concentration slot requirement of Alin's (& Hyran's) and Bria's removed so there is actually some choice in what buffs to run? Asking for Charm/Mezz durations to be extended is a waste of effort (and doesn't help raiders anyway) -  you can see how overpowered the developers think they are by looking how little  the EoF AA lines extend them (0.5sec and 1sec / point respectively) </blockquote>i can out dps anyone but assasins and necros dunno what your issue is personaly

[Cuz]

He kept on leveling. I have a better time playing other classes than trying to get troubs to be fun for me to play. I gave up.

[ForgottenFoundling]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>Whats to post?  The bard "fixes" were a joke.  We are still the lowest personal dpsing non-priests.  Oops, actually Furys always outparse me, so not even that. So/so solo - Mezz and even our crappy charm are nice toys. Fine in the right group  (dirges bring more to most groups as there is always 2 guaranteed meleers - but no guarantee on a caster), Boring on raids, where the only decisons are who to cast Jester's on next, and when to hit Bladedance/PotM I do suggest /bugging PotM's daze/root constantly, just to annoy the developers if nothing else. (It sure as hell annoys me, with my "Rogue Level Autoattack" ) Perhaps a concerted campain to get the concentration slot requirement of Alin's (& Hyran's) and Bria's removed so there is actually some choice in what buffs to run? Asking for Charm/Mezz durations to be extended is a waste of effort (and doesn't help raiders anyway) -  you can see how overpowered the developers think they are by looking how little  the EoF AA lines extend them (0.5sec and 1sec / point respectively) </blockquote>i can out dps anyone but assasins and necros dunno what your issue is personaly </blockquote>[Removed for Content]! 

[Antryg Mistrose]

Spider wrote: "i can out dps anyone but assasins and necros dunno what your issue is personaly" The dirge forums, have a resident resident poet laurette, we, have, um, ah  -  comic relief?

[Trabbart]

Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>Spider wrote: "i can out dps anyone but assasins and necros dunno what your issue is personaly" The dirge forums, have a resident resident poet laurette, we, have, um, ah  -  comic relief? </blockquote><p> Yes it seems we do, Bard = Jester?</p><p>Also looking at his signature (level)  i think he may be more on these forums than playing his "beloved" troubador. </p><p>P.s Keep the effort going<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Epif]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>Whats to post?  The bard "fixes" were a joke.  We are still the lowest personal dpsing non-priests.  Oops, actually Furys always outparse me, so not even that. So/so solo - Mezz and even our crappy charm are nice toys. Fine in the right group  (dirges bring more to most groups as there is always 2 guaranteed meleers - but no guarantee on a caster), Boring on raids, where the only decisons are who to cast Jester's on next, and when to hit Bladedance/PotM I do suggest /bugging PotM's daze/root constantly, just to annoy the developers if nothing else. (It sure as hell annoys me, with my "Rogue Level Autoattack" ) Perhaps a concerted campain to get the concentration slot requirement of Alin's (& Hyran's) and Bria's removed so there is actually some choice in what buffs to run? Asking for Charm/Mezz durations to be extended is a waste of effort (and doesn't help raiders anyway) -  you can see how overpowered the developers think they are by looking how little  the EoF AA lines extend them (0.5sec and 1sec / point respectively) </blockquote>i can out dps anyone but assasins and necros dunno what your issue is personaly </blockquote><p>Bring your [Removed for Content]  to T7 and im sure you cant. Hell i know for a fact you cant the highest i have ever parsed was 967 and that was in labs and i was the 10th on the parse.</p><p>Epif Nagafen </p>

[Pathos311]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>Whats to post?  The bard "fixes" were a joke.  We are still the lowest personal dpsing non-priests.  Oops, actually Furys always outparse me, so not even that. So/so solo - Mezz and even our crappy charm are nice toys. Fine in the right group  (dirges bring more to most groups as there is always 2 guaranteed meleers - but no guarantee on a caster), Boring on raids, where the only decisons are who to cast Jester's on next, and when to hit Bladedance/PotM I do suggest /bugging PotM's daze/root constantly, just to annoy the developers if nothing else. (It sure as hell annoys me, with my "Rogue Level Autoattack" ) Perhaps a concerted campain to get the concentration slot requirement of Alin's (& Hyran's) and Bria's removed so there is actually some choice in what buffs to run? Asking for Charm/Mezz durations to be extended is a waste of effort (and doesn't help raiders anyway) -  you can see how overpowered the developers think they are by looking how little  the EoF AA lines extend them (0.5sec and 1sec / point respectively) </blockquote>i can out dps anyone but assasins and necros dunno what your issue is personaly </blockquote>Ok your real DPS classes suck and never post again you have no idea what the real deal is.  You are a liar.  Once again NEVER POST AGAING.

[Spider]

<cite>Pathos311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>Whats to post?  The bard "fixes" were a joke.  We are still the lowest personal dpsing non-priests.  Oops, actually Furys always outparse me, so not even that. So/so solo - Mezz and even our crappy charm are nice toys. Fine in the right group  (dirges bring more to most groups as there is always 2 guaranteed meleers - but no guarantee on a caster), Boring on raids, where the only decisons are who to cast Jester's on next, and when to hit Bladedance/PotM I do suggest /bugging PotM's daze/root constantly, just to annoy the developers if nothing else. (It sure as hell annoys me, with my "Rogue Level Autoattack" ) Perhaps a concerted campain to get the concentration slot requirement of Alin's (& Hyran's) and Bria's removed so there is actually some choice in what buffs to run? Asking for Charm/Mezz durations to be extended is a waste of effort (and doesn't help raiders anyway) -  you can see how overpowered the developers think they are by looking how little  the EoF AA lines extend them (0.5sec and 1sec / point respectively) </blockquote>i can out dps anyone but assasins and necros dunno what your issue is personaly </blockquote>Ok your real DPS classes suck and never post again you have no idea what the real deal is.  You are a liar.  Once again NEVER POST AGAING. </blockquote><p>nice responce  oh brainless one </p><p>jsut because you dont know how to maximize yopur class doenst mean others dont </p><p>iof you took the time to look at my toon its in a lot of fabeled and mostly adorned  and almost all spells are master 1 </p><p>i know my class well and i know how to maximize my dps  </p><p>im sorry you cant do the same but it does NOT make me a liar  sir it simply makes you a lesser player </p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pathos311 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>Whats to post?  The bard "fixes" were a joke.  We are still the lowest personal dpsing non-priests.  Oops, actually Furys always outparse me, so not even that. So/so solo - Mezz and even our crappy charm are nice toys. Fine in the right group  (dirges bring more to most groups as there is always 2 guaranteed meleers - but no guarantee on a caster), Boring on raids, where the only decisons are who to cast Jester's on next, and when to hit Bladedance/PotM I do suggest /bugging PotM's daze/root constantly, just to annoy the developers if nothing else. (It sure as hell annoys me, with my "Rogue Level Autoattack" ) Perhaps a concerted campain to get the concentration slot requirement of Alin's (& Hyran's) and Bria's removed so there is actually some choice in what buffs to run? Asking for Charm/Mezz durations to be extended is a waste of effort (and doesn't help raiders anyway) -  you can see how overpowered the developers think they are by looking how little  the EoF AA lines extend them (0.5sec and 1sec / point respectively) </blockquote>i can out dps anyone but assasins and necros dunno what your issue is personaly </blockquote>Ok your real DPS classes suck and never post again you have no idea what the real deal is.  You are a liar.  Once again NEVER POST AGAING. </blockquote><p>nice responce  oh brainless one </p><p>jsut because you dont know how to maximize yopur class doenst mean others dont </p><p>iof you took the time to look at my toon its in a lot of fabeled and mostly adorned  and almost all spells are master 1 </p><p>i know my class well and i know how to maximize my dps  </p><p>im sorry you cant do the same but it does NOT make me a liar  sir it simply makes you a lesser player </p></blockquote><p>My toon is fully mastered (except elude).  I have a lot of fabled gear and many proc items.  I am highly adorned.  I know my class well and how to maximize my dps.  I am nowhere close to good players playing ANY dps class on the zonewide parse.  I am talking specifically of personal dps, not the abstract "dps we bring to the group".</p><p> Now, you may be correct in your statements, however you need to qualify them with level caps, other players, situations, etc.  We know you aren't anywhere near level cap or a raider.  So, unqualified statements invite the ire of those that know.</p><p>Your best bet would be to alter your sig to say "Any and all statements I make are based purely on my character level and do not in the least bit contain any relevance to the end game of EQ2.  I do pwn OJs and reds though! pew pew pew!!1!" </p>

[Spider]

<p>i love how you almost made a sensible discussion then degenerated into idiotic ramblings lol </p><p>thanks for the entertainment </p><p>secondly the dps we bring to the group is no where near abstract its QUITE definate </p><p>if you cant see and understand that then u realy have a lot to learn </p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>i love how you almost made a sensible discussion then degenerated into idiotic ramblings lol </p><p>thanks for the entertainment </p><p>secondly the dps we bring to the group is no where near abstract its QUITE definate </p><p>if you cant see and understand that then u realy have a lot to learn </p></blockquote> Really?  Please tell me the definite dps gain attributed to a hate reducer, power regen, Jester's cap and survivability from blade dance and resists.

[Spider]

<cite>ForgottenFoundling wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>i love how you almost made a sensible discussion then degenerated into idiotic ramblings lol </p><p>thanks for the entertainment </p><p>secondly the dps we bring to the group is no where near abstract its QUITE definate </p><p>if you cant see and understand that then u realy have a lot to learn </p></blockquote> Really?  Please tell me the definite dps gain attributed to a hate reducer, power regen, Jester's cap and survivability from blade dance and resists.</blockquote><p>giving an exact number is about as impossible as giving an exact number of your own dps at any given time considering it changes depending on what ur fighting and what procs go off and when  an da million other variables  so dont try that argument  because by those standards EVERONES dps  buffed or unbuffed  is completely and totaly abstract  but at any given time in a group or raid turn off all your buffs and watch the parses then turn them back on  and see the visible difference </p><p>while an exact number isnt possible to get for each encounter or instance  you CAN see a major differance </p><p>simple example  while in a permafrost group ages ago the tank ( who was a parsing [Removed for Content]) was threatining to kick me from group for not dpsing as much as the other scout in the group ( never mind that it was an assasin  and that the tank was stupid and didnt know crap about bards or that i was only dpsing below the assasin and necro and was beating the wiz and the fury  ) so i was like ok fine  u dont think im adding enuff to the group ? here ill turn off all my buffs  and i did exept my personal buff  and i still dpsed in teh same spot i was before but everyone elses dps had dropped considerably  ( mind u  still fighting the smae kind of guys  ) so this went on for several fights a few becomeing near things because well we wernt killing fast enuff </p><p>the tank then begged me to rebuff  </p><p>which of course i did and we finished the zone  with out further problems </p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ForgottenFoundling wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>i love how you almost made a sensible discussion then degenerated into idiotic ramblings lol </p><p>thanks for the entertainment </p><p>secondly the dps we bring to the group is no where near abstract its QUITE definate </p><p>if you cant see and understand that then u realy have a lot to learn </p></blockquote> Really?  Please tell me the definite dps gain attributed to a hate reducer, power regen, Jester's cap and survivability from blade dance and resists.</blockquote><p>giving an exact number is about as impossible as giving an exact number of your own dps at any given time considering it changes depending on what ur fighting and what procs go off and when  an da million other variables  so dont try that argument  because by those standards EVERONES dps  buffed or unbuffed  is completely and totaly abstract  but at any given time in a group or raid turn off all your buffs and watch the parses then turn them back on  and see the visible difference </p><p>while an exact number isnt possible to get for each encounter or instance  you CAN see a major differance </p><p>simple example  while in a permafrost group ages ago the tank ( who was a parsing [Removed for Content]) was threatining to kick me from group for not dpsing as much as the other scout in the group ( never mind that it was an assasin  and that the tank was stupid and didnt know crap about bards or that i was only dpsing below the assasin and necro and was beating the wiz and the fury  ) so i was like ok fine  u dont think im adding enuff to the group ? here ill turn off all my buffs  and i did exept my personal buff  and i still dpsed in teh same spot i was before but everyone elses dps had dropped considerably  ( mind u  still fighting the smae kind of guys  ) so this went on for several fights a few becomeing near things because well we wernt killing fast enuff </p><p>the tank then begged me to rebuff  </p><p>which of course i did and we finished the zone  with out further problems </p></blockquote>Alright, then you agree with me that our buffs and utility are "abstract" and NOT "definitive" in that there is no number that can be verifiably attributed to them.

[Trabbart]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>simple example  while in a permafrost group ages ago the tank ( who was a parsing [Removed for Content]) was threatining to kick me from group for not dpsing as much as the other scout in the group ( never mind that it was an assasin  and that the tank was stupid and didnt know crap about bards or that i was only dpsing below the assasin and necro and was beating the wiz and the fury  ) so i was like ok fine  u dont think im adding enuff to the group ? here ill turn off all my buffs  and i did exept my personal buff  and i still dpsed in teh same spot i was before but everyone elses dps had dropped considerably  ( mind u  still fighting the smae kind of guys  ) so this went on for several fights a few becomeing near things because well we wernt killing fast enuff </p><p>the tank then begged me to rebuff  </p><p>which of course i did and we finished the zone  with out further problems </p></blockquote><p> God i am glad you are not on my server.</p>

[Spider]

<cite>Trabbart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>simple example  while in a permafrost group ages ago the tank ( who was a parsing [Removed for Content]) was threatining to kick me from group for not dpsing as much as the other scout in the group ( never mind that it was an assasin  and that the tank was stupid and didnt know crap about bards or that i was only dpsing below the assasin and necro and was beating the wiz and the fury  ) so i was like ok fine  u dont think im adding enuff to the group ? here ill turn off all my buffs  and i did exept my personal buff  and i still dpsed in teh same spot i was before but everyone elses dps had dropped considerably  ( mind u  still fighting the smae kind of guys  ) so this went on for several fights a few becomeing near things because well we wernt killing fast enuff </p><p>the tank then begged me to rebuff  </p><p>which of course i did and we finished the zone  with out further problems </p></blockquote><p> God i am glad you are not on my server.</p></blockquote><p> and im glad your not on mine </p><p>i personaly dont think u could survive on pvp </p><p>so have a nice day  and oh yeah keep your idiotic comments to yourself </p>

[Spider]

<blockquote><p>ForgottenFoundling wrote: </p><p>Alright, then you agree with me that our buffs and utility are "abstract" and NOT "definitive" in that there is no number that can be verifiably attributed to them. </p></blockquote><p>   sure in so far as ALL dps is ABSTRACT  and no verifyable number can be attributed to it.</p><p>thereby making any and all discussion on dps in the end rather irrelevant due to the fact that none of it is consitant and able to be quantified in definitive number format </p>

[Skavon]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>Whats to post?  The bard "fixes" were a joke.  We are still the lowest personal dpsing non-priests.  Oops, actually Furys always outparse me, so not even that. So/so solo - Mezz and even our crappy charm are nice toys. Fine in the right group  (dirges bring more to most groups as there is always 2 guaranteed meleers - but no guarantee on a caster), Boring on raids, where the only decisons are who to cast Jester's on next, and when to hit Bladedance/PotM I do suggest /bugging PotM's daze/root constantly, just to annoy the developers if nothing else. (It sure as hell annoys me, with my "Rogue Level Autoattack" ) Perhaps a concerted campain to get the concentration slot requirement of Alin's (& Hyran's) and Bria's removed so there is actually some choice in what buffs to run? Asking for Charm/Mezz durations to be extended is a waste of effort (and doesn't help raiders anyway) -  you can see how overpowered the developers think they are by looking how little  the EoF AA lines extend them (0.5sec and 1sec / point respectively) </blockquote>i can out dps anyone but assasins and necros dunno what your issue is personaly </blockquote>*rofl* sure you do - thanks a ton - i really didnt laugh so hard in quite a while. Now if you would enlighten me - apart from the fact that if your signature is up to date you are not even near T7 - how you manage to put out 2.5k+ dps... because thats how much a good warlock/wizzy/swash/conjy for instance can do (hell - ive seen our warlock do 4k on some fights) Now please - tell me how to play my troubadour - enlighten me - tell me your spell lineup in raids and tell me where you get the spells from that get you even *close* to that kind of damage - last time i checked the biggest troub nuke did 2k at pretty high int (granted that can be 3+ on crits with enough debuffs in. But i am willing to learn! But hey - if you are really 46 on your troub then hell - you dont even raid most likely right now... now thats really hard then... - Skavon

[ForgottenFoundling]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><p>ForgottenFoundling wrote: </p><p>Alright, then you agree with me that our buffs and utility are "abstract" and NOT "definitive" in that there is no number that can be verifiably attributed to them. </p></blockquote><p>   sure in so far as ALL dps is ABSTRACT  and no verifyable number can be attributed to it.</p><p>thereby making any and all discussion on dps in the end rather irrelevant due to the fact that none of it is consitant and able to be quantified in definitive number format </p></blockquote><p>Personal dps, running consistant buffs over the course of a zone is about as verifiable as you can get.  Parsers will pick it up, split it up and display it in nice, neat data tables which can be viewed and interpreted.  It is about as definite as you can get in this game.  You can see damage percentages and what buffs you have on you from other classes and how much damage they have contributed to "your" dps.</p><p>If you don't know what a parse is or how to read one, we can't help you and you have no business ever discussing dps.  I qualified my first statement as looking at personal dps (i.e. parse scores). </p>

[Cuz]

wrong thread

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>DPS is not defined by how much you bring to the party, it's defined by how much DPS you personally do. How much you bring to the party is commonly called "utility."</p><p>> can out dps anyone but assasins and necros dunno what your issue is personaly </p><p>Not possible - you must be talking about utility.</p><p>While it's an interesting conjecture to state you increase group damage by more then anyone except assassins or necros, it depends a lot on group composition, and it probably matters whether you are in a pick-up group, caster raid group, or melee group. It could be a worthwhile discussion.</p><p>However, it doesn't help the issue of low DPS. Lot's of people love having me in group, but I grow tired of my damage being so low. At least mez has become useful now that I've sunk the AAs into it. Even still, when people want a mezzer, they want a coercer or illusionist.</p>

[Frigid2000]

<p>There are two sides to playing a troub.</p><p>One - The buffs you bring to a group, along with crowd control utility and better survivability than coercer make people drool over you.  People argue over wanting me in their group during a raid, simply because of the buffs.</p><p>Two - Point one limits you as a utility class, because you are not a dps class.  You can and will be out-dps'd by most every class in the game.  Most of my spells are master's, I'm in about half-fabled with solid legendaries and it don't matter.  Anyone who says otherwise is a tool.  When your single highest damage spell at master 1 is 1200 (if it hits max) and might possibly go to 1500 or a little higher if it crits and Aria procs, almost everyone else has nukes and abilities WELL above those numbers.  We have nothing else that even comes close (and don't count master strikes.)</p><p> I am discussing OUR dps, not what you bring to a group's dps.  It's very frustrating, but that is the way it is.  Anyone who says they can keep up with any other scout class (not counting dirges) or caster class has no idea what they're talking about.  Furies outdps me.  Some tank classes do as well.  And don't give me comparisons of "yeah, well.. I have full fable and fully adorned and blah, blah."  Compare yourself to people that have the exact same thing then, and not a bunch of treasured crap.</p>

[Llewrend]

<cite>Frigid2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There are two sides to playing a troub.</p><p>One - The buffs you bring to a group, along with crowd control utility and better survivability than coercer make people drool over you.  People argue over wanting me in their group during a raid, simply because of the buffs.</p><p>Two - Point one limits you as a utility class, because you are not a dps class.  You can and will be out-dps'd by most every class in the game.  Most of my spells are master's, I'm in about half-fabled with solid legendaries and it don't matter.  Anyone who says otherwise is a tool.  <b>When your single highest damage spell at master 1 is 1200 (if it hits max) and might possibly go to 1500 or a little higher if it crits and Aria procs, almost everyone else has nukes and abilities WELL above those numbers</b>.  We have nothing else that even comes close (and don't count master strikes.)</p><p> ------------------------------------------------------</p>My Perfect Shrills average 2k, peaking at about 3.4k during raids. In group situations they do around 1.4k average with 2k peaks. I rarely hit with 1.5k max on Perfect Shrill. Also my Eli's hits for around 1.5k with 2.5k peaks. Sure, you will be outdpsed by alot of [<b>DPS</b>] classes, but in no way, shape, or form should MOST classes be outdpsing you. I do around 1kish zonewide dps with raidwide around 22.5k, with only the main scout dps, and mage dps, and zerkers ahead of me.</blockquote>

[Frigid2000]

<p>Ok, then let's sit back and look at non-group and non-raid situations, where your damage isn't being upgraded by other people's buffs.</p><p>Those numbers I posted in regards to shrill are solo numbers.  You must be seriously decked out with tons of spell damage or crit percentage if those are average numbers you are posting.  Considering Perfect Shrill Master 1 does a max of 1200 something, there's no way your numbers can hit that unless you are counting crits or Aria, in solo play.</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> Sure, you will be outdpsed by alot of [<b>DPS</b>] classes, but in no way, > shape, or form should MOST classes be outdpsing you. I do around > 1kish zonewide dps with raidwide around 22.5k, with only the main > scout dps, and mage dps, and zerkers ahead of me.</p><p>Let's see, that would be 11 classes out of 23 other classes. Even by your own admission, you are very close to most classes. Do Monks out DPS you? Furies? Bruisers? If any answer is yes, then most classes do out-DPS you. If not, then most classes don't out-DPS you, but only by the slimmest of margins.</p><p>Further, if you take "most classes" to mean "most classes present at the raid," then I think it's clearly true, because the most popular classes are classes like the berserker, assassin, necro, and wizard.</p><p>If you take "most classes" to mean "most non-healing classes" once again, it's clearly true. You are then down to 11 classes out of 17 that you admit out-DPS you. I don't know about you, but I take no pride if I out-DPS a templar.</p>

[Blakeavon]

<p>why bother post anymore, the devs have way passed caring about us?</p><p>they promised loving and gave us a slap in the face with a cold fish.</p><p>they only visit us here to complain that we arent being 'nice' enough, funny after 38 pages of posts in testing forum all that we really got was some auto-damage update. and still no explanation why we lost a long running charm ....</p><p>i wish i had faith but i dont</p>

[Cuz]

Lumaghast@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>why bother post anymore, the devs have way passed caring about us?</p><p>they promised loving and gave us a slap in the face with a cold fish.</p><p>they only visit us here to complain that we arent being 'nice' enough, funny after 38 pages of posts in testing forum all that we really got was some auto-damage update. and still no explanation why we lost a long running charm ....</p><p>i wish i had faith but i dont</p></blockquote> Not even. They put our "fixes" in the Dirge forums, they couldn't be bothered to come here.

[Novusod]

I was tricked by the headline. So don't mind if I derail this doomsayer thread. There is nothing wrong with bards. Played right we can do nearly impossible things. Just tonight I was in an Unrest group where we had the a Dirge as the main tank after our guardian LD'd on us and we cleared the entire zone without a single wipe. When you put a dirge and troubador together you don't need a tank anymore or if you have tank you might not need a healer. I have cleared Den of Devourer with no healer. So enough with the complaining already. Show some effort to play the class before you condenm it.

[Trabbart]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was tricked by the headline. So don't mind if I derail this doomsayer thread. There is nothing wrong with bards. Played right we can do nearly impossible things. Just tonight I was in an Unrest group where we had the a Dirge as the main tank after our guardian LD'd on us and we cleared the entire zone without a single wipe. When you put a dirge and troubador together you don't need a tank anymore or if you have tank you might not need a healer. I have cleared Den of Devourer with no healer. So enough with the complaining already. Show some effort to play the class before you condenm it. </blockquote><p> The thread cant be "derailed" since its all about more post to get out of our permanent last place. So thanx for your contribution.</p><p>Troub/dirge is a good combo and especially fun combo in any group  i agree.  Combining us into 1 class may actually be a fun idea.</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was tricked by the headline. So don't mind if I derail this doomsayer thread. There is nothing wrong with bards. Played right we can do nearly impossible things. Just tonight I was in an Unrest group where we had the a Dirge as the main tank after our guardian LD'd on us and we cleared the entire zone without a single wipe. When you put a dirge and troubador together you don't need a tank anymore or if you have tank you might not need a healer. I have cleared Den of Devourer with no healer. So enough with the complaining already. Show some effort to play the class before you condenm it. </blockquote> I've seen scouts (especially rogues) tank some interesting things, but bards? that is a stretch.  And note you say it was the DIRGE that tanked it, not the troubador, which kind of proves the point.  Dirges are an interesting and reasonably well thought out class to play.  Troubs are not - the 'bard' fix, gave minor upgrades to a couple of spells and INCREASED AUTOATTACK DAMAGE.  One class has CoB (melee proc) , the other has PotM (DAZE).  Gee I wonder how that helped. My other 'utility' char (illusionist) can easily dps 1.5x as much as my troub, while buffing group members every bit as much as a troub can: 60% haste / conc slot 25% double attack time compression on a caster temporary buffs far better power management, easily the equivalent of Jesters in utility Larger & more frequent proc than Aria / conc slot (and with zero aggro) All this and still having Mezz, Daze, Stun work on epics The difference in play is marked.  Troub is mindnumingly tedious in comparison.  Unfortunately we have Alin's - the sole reason for taking troubs on raids.

[Mildavyn]

<p>Actually if you know what you're doing, you can tank quite well as a Troub. Obviously you have to be set-up that way, and having a group that knows NOT to drop their big hits early is essential. I can quite easily hold single-target agro off any class if they give me 5 seconds to get a head-start, and don't taunt. Group agro is harder, but still easy if you get that 5 second head-start.</p><p>I know for a fact that the troub and dirge combined in a group can make it all but impossible for anyone to pull agro off that dirge, or the troub if you set up differently. Having a dirge/troub replace the healer is easy to do in KoS zones ('cept HoF) I'm not sure what the dirges get for healing numbers, but they get the best rez in the game, they can transfer HP, and we can regen up to 167/tick (thats better than any food I've seen) Also we get regenerating magical wards, defence buff, 13% chance to reflect/absorb spell damage (parry/stoneskin from the dirge) and between the dirge and troub we make most mobs hit like a schoolgirl with the flu!</p><p>Hell, between a dirge and a troub we can pretty much turn ANYTHING into an insane group tank.</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> There is nothing wrong with bards. Played right we can do nearly impossible things</p><p>Obviously there is something wrong with troubadours - we have fallen until now we are the least-played class. For every one troubadour at level 70, you'll find four wizards. I would speculate that the played-time ratio is even worse.</p>

[Mildavyn]

<p>There are problems with the Troubador. Anyone who doesn't agree is kidding themselves. Having said that, we CAN do some pretty impressive things. We are the least played because we have to work our backsides off to get things done, where other classes simply mash their buttons and win. You take a skilled Bard and give him a swashbuckler to play and watch the DPS hit the roof after the first 20-30 minutes. We HAVE to know our classes backwards to do things that others can do easily. In my opinion that makes us better players. </p><p>YMMV</p>

[Spider]

Paikis@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>Actually if you know what you're doing, you can tank quite well as a Troub. Obviously you have to be set-up that way, and having a group that knows NOT to drop their big hits early is essential. I can quite easily hold single-target agro off any class if they give me 5 seconds to get a head-start, and don't taunt. Group agro is harder, but still easy if you get that 5 second head-start.</p><p>I know for a fact that the troub and dirge combined in a group can make it all but impossible for anyone to pull agro off that dirge, or the troub if you set up differently. Having a dirge/troub replace the healer is easy to do in KoS zones ('cept HoF) I'm not sure what the dirges get for healing numbers, but they get the best rez in the game, they can transfer HP, and we can regen up to 167/tick (thats better than any food I've seen) Also we get regenerating magical wards, defence buff, 13% chance to reflect/absorb spell damage (parry/stoneskin from the dirge) and between the dirge and troub we make most mobs hit like a schoolgirl with the flu!</p><p>Hell, between a dirge and a troub we can pretty much turn ANYTHING into an insane group tank.</p></blockquote><p>accualy i fully agree ive tanked a lot of things with fair ease  ( nothing raid mind u )  jsut put up the hate decreasing buff and then cancel it on yourself and u work wonders with keeping hate</p><p>charm pull when u can  (unless its a named or somethign ) as it garners a TON of hate and can pull w/o social agro quite nicely </p>

[Mildavyn]

Actually it generates very little hate. it does however mem-wipe the mobs. They come after you first, but as soon as anyone does anything it doesn't like, it'll switch to them. Pulling with charm is a bad idea when you're trying to tank, unless you want to single pull out of a crowded room. Much better to just mez the mob and go to town on his friends.

[Cuz]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was tricked by the headline. So don't mind if I derail this doomsayer thread. There is nothing wrong with bards. Played right we can do nearly impossible things. Just tonight I was in an Unrest group where we had the a Dirge as the main tank after our guardian LD'd on us and we cleared the entire zone without a single wipe. When you put a dirge and troubador together you don't need a tank anymore or if you have tank you might not need a healer. I have cleared Den of Devourer with no healer. So enough with the complaining already. Show some effort to play the class before you condenm it. </blockquote> What exactly do you do that you would say is considered "played right"?

[Llewrend]

<cite>Frigid2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, then let's sit back and look at non-group and non-raid situations, where your damage isn't being upgraded by other people's buffs.</p><p>Those numbers I posted in regards to shrill are solo numbers.  You must be seriously decked out with tons of spell damage or crit percentage if those are average numbers you are posting.  Considering Perfect Shrill Master 1 does a max of 1200 something, there's no way your numbers can hit that unless you are counting crits or Aria, in solo play.</p></blockquote> I tested Shrill outside of group and raid situations, and it averages for 1.4k with 1.8k peaks. It even says when I examine it, that it should go up to around 1.7k. I don't know how yours only says 1.2k, unless you have 200 int or something.

[Spider]

<cite>Llewrend wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Frigid2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, then let's sit back and look at non-group and non-raid situations, where your damage isn't being upgraded by other people's buffs.</p><p>Those numbers I posted in regards to shrill are solo numbers.  You must be seriously decked out with tons of spell damage or crit percentage if those are average numbers you are posting.  Considering Perfect Shrill Master 1 does a max of 1200 something, there's no way your numbers can hit that unless you are counting crits or Aria, in solo play.</p></blockquote> I tested Shrill outside of group and raid situations, and it averages for 1.4k with 1.8k peaks. It even says when I examine it, that it should go up to around 1.7k. I don't know how yours only says 1.2k, unless you have 200 int or something.</blockquote>probqably many troubs and bards in general have a disconcerting habbit of pretending to be scouts then complaining when they cant do things  and low and behold there gimped on int

[Spider]

Paikis@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Actually it generates very little hate. it does however mem-wipe the mobs. They come after you first, but as soon as anyone does anything it doesn't like, it'll switch to them. Pulling with charm is a bad idea when you're trying to tank, unless you want to single pull out of a crowded room. Much better to just mez the mob and go to town on his friends.</blockquote><p> possibly and when i get my new troub up there ill give it a try till then ive decided to keep my first troub in the 40's for pvp as im having a lot of fun at that lvl  ( lots of targets in that lvl range at this time </p><p>and my new troub im speed grinding to 70 on quests and such with as much aa as possible</p><p>and my guilds ready to help get him geared and raiding  </p>

[VericSauvari]

<cite>Llewrend wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Frigid2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, then let's sit back and look at non-group and non-raid situations, where your damage isn't being upgraded by other people's buffs.</p><p>Those numbers I posted in regards to shrill are solo numbers.  You must be seriously decked out with tons of spell damage or crit percentage if those are average numbers you are posting.  Considering Perfect Shrill Master 1 does a max of 1200 something, there's no way your numbers can hit that unless you are counting crits or Aria, in solo play.</p></blockquote> I tested Shrill outside of group and raid situations, and it averages for 1.4k with 1.8k peaks. It even says when I examine it, that it should go up to around 1.7k. I don't know how yours only says 1.2k, unless you have 200 int or something.</blockquote> ditto, my shrills (and eli's) usually hit for a minimum of 1.6kish not including if aria's procs with around 300ish int. I am close to breaking the 1k ceiling consistently in KoS zones and EoF trash..however even a half geared adept3 troub should be able to hit 650 consistently in these zones. One huge factor is your weapons imo.  Personally I need to work on timing or beg specific classes for buffs if i want to break that 1k mark consistently. First I land green debuffs, then I open with guviena's(magic debuff), hit lores, hit dancing blade(magic debuff), hit shrill, hit essence  then hit eli's. I then wait for dancing blade to come back up then go sandra's to noble blade(properly debuffed you can tap a mob twice for 1k for both hits) then finally clara's.....remember all your attacks with the exception of autoattack, dancing blade and clara's is melee based, everything else is magic or mental based. Granted my order can change completely if its a multiple mob encounter or depending what buffs i may have on at the time, its a work in progress <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> oh and spider shut the hell up until you at least hit tier7..a 16 troub can out dps a 16 assassin but that means jack in the grand scheme of things..its not end game.

[Spider]

<cite>VericSauvari wrote:</cite><blockquote> <cite>Llewrend wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Frigid2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, then let's sit back and look at non-group and non-raid situations, where your damage isn't being upgraded by other people's buffs.</p><p>Those numbers I posted in regards to shrill are solo numbers.  You must be seriously decked out with tons of spell damage or crit percentage if those are average numbers you are posting.  Considering Perfect Shrill Master 1 does a max of 1200 something, there's no way your numbers can hit that unless you are counting crits or Aria, in solo play.</p></blockquote> I tested Shrill outside of group and raid situations, and it averages for 1.4k with 1.8k peaks. It even says when I examine it, that it should go up to around 1.7k. I don't know how yours only says 1.2k, unless you have 200 int or something.</blockquote> ditto, my shrills (and eli's) usually hit for a minimum of 1.6kish not including if aria's procs with around 300ish int. I am close to breaking the 1k ceiling consistently in KoS zones and EoF trash..however even a half geared adept3 troub should be able to hit 650 consistently in these zones. One huge factor is your weapons imo.  Personally I need to work on timing or beg specific classes for buffs if i want to break that 1k mark consistently. First I land green debuffs, then I open with guviena's(magic debuff), hit lores, hit dancing blade(magic debuff), hit shrill, hit essence  then hit eli's. I then wait for dancing blade to come back up then go sandra's to noble blade(properly debuffed you can tap a mob twice for 1k for both hits) then finally clara's.....remember all your attacks with the exception of autoattack, dancing blade and clara's is melee based, everything else is magic or mental based. Granted my order can change completely if its a multiple mob encounter or depending what buffs i may have on at the time, its a work in progress <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> oh and spider shut the hell up until you at least hit tier7..a 16 troub can out dps a 16 assassin but that means jack in the grand scheme of things..its not end game. </blockquote><p> accauly chief ive got a 23 troub AND a 46 troub in mostly fabeled an adorned and am well experianced</p><p>so untill u get off a blue easymode server and roll pvp why dont u take ur smarta$$ comments and keep em to yourself huh ! </p><p>lets see if u can even GET a toon to 70 on a pvp server chief esspecialy while staying out of instances then maybie well talk </p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>VericSauvari wrote:</cite><blockquote> <cite>Llewrend wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Frigid2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, then let's sit back and look at non-group and non-raid situations, where your damage isn't being upgraded by other people's buffs.</p><p>Those numbers I posted in regards to shrill are solo numbers.  You must be seriously decked out with tons of spell damage or crit percentage if those are average numbers you are posting.  Considering Perfect Shrill Master 1 does a max of 1200 something, there's no way your numbers can hit that unless you are counting crits or Aria, in solo play.</p></blockquote> I tested Shrill outside of group and raid situations, and it averages for 1.4k with 1.8k peaks. It even says when I examine it, that it should go up to around 1.7k. I don't know how yours only says 1.2k, unless you have 200 int or something.</blockquote> ditto, my shrills (and eli's) usually hit for a minimum of 1.6kish not including if aria's procs with around 300ish int. I am close to breaking the 1k ceiling consistently in KoS zones and EoF trash..however even a half geared adept3 troub should be able to hit 650 consistently in these zones. One huge factor is your weapons imo.  Personally I need to work on timing or beg specific classes for buffs if i want to break that 1k mark consistently. First I land green debuffs, then I open with guviena's(magic debuff), hit lores, hit dancing blade(magic debuff), hit shrill, hit essence  then hit eli's. I then wait for dancing blade to come back up then go sandra's to noble blade(properly debuffed you can tap a mob twice for 1k for both hits) then finally clara's.....remember all your attacks with the exception of autoattack, dancing blade and clara's is melee based, everything else is magic or mental based. Granted my order can change completely if its a multiple mob encounter or depending what buffs i may have on at the time, its a work in progress <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> oh and spider shut the hell up until you at least hit tier7..a 16 troub can out dps a 16 assassin but that means jack in the grand scheme of things..its not end game. </blockquote><p> accauly chief ive got a 23 troub AND a 46 troub in mostly fabeled an adorned and am well experianced</p><p>so untill u get off a blue easymode server and roll pvp why dont u take ur [I cannot control my vocabulary] comments and keep em to yourself huh ! </p><p>lets see if u can even GET a toon to 70 on a pvp server chief esspecialy while staying out of instances then maybie well talk </p></blockquote> I open with invis attack: /usea Shroud /usea Clara's Midnight Tempo /autoattack 1 Side attack /usea Sinister Strike /usea Dancing Blade /autoattack 1 and Guviena's (mental debuff) Supposedly to reduce how hard the mob hits, and get it debuffed to Mental before I try to land other things on it. With timing the first macro with incoming, you don't waste time on Shroud during combat (well in short fights anyway). After that it depends on whether its group or raid.  Raids I'll often have PotM up, so hit that next, often with Jester's for reuse: /g PotM - 20sec of 100% spell procs useabilityon Valcon Jester's Cap usea Precision of the Maestro then all the green debuffs and spells (have demoralization maxed) In groups I just skip to damage, unless its a large encounter. I don't get much dps from this sequence, but I do kid myself that on raids the debuffs do something. Other useful macros /useabilityon SomeWorthyPlayer Jester's Cap    ( I have 3 of these lined up above the actual button, so I don't have to look too closely at the recast timer - just set them up at the start of the raid) /useabilityon Valcon Jester's Cap /useability Blade Dance /g Say Bladedance, your 30sec AoE immunity starts now /assist MA /autoattack 1 /g Evacing in 3sec. Group Hug! /usea Escape To our illustrious forum troll: So a 23 troub + 46 troub = 69 troub <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I can see why people get annoyed with your ludicrous posts.  SCALING dear boy does NOT work for troubadors in this game.  You get weaker as you level. You are NOT experienced.  Sorry, no way around it.  T7 raids are where a lot of complaints come from, and at 46 on a PVP server, I doubt you've even been on one T5 raid.  You aren't playing the same game as us, so why don't you stick to the 7331 kiddies PVP forum?

[VericSauvari]

Spider wrote: <blockquote><p>accauly chief ive got a 23 troub AND a 46 troub in mostly fabeled an adorned and am well experianced</p><p>so untill u get off a blue easymode server and roll pvp why dont u take ur [I cannot control my vocabulary] comments and keep em to yourself huh ! </p><p>lets see if u can even GET a toon to 70 on a pvp server chief esspecialy while staying out of instances then maybie well talk </p></blockquote><p> You have no idea how utterly retarted you sound..jeebus i wish there was an /ignore mode on these forums or we could 1 star all of spiders posts into oblivion.</p><p> let the BIG BOYS talk spider, go back to farming t4 players with your 46 troubie. Until you actually hit endgame on ANY server as your troub you will always be viewed as not being able to UNDERSTAND the big picture as you do not 'live it' or you have not witnessed a 70 troubador in action in a raid.</p><p>do everyone a favor and stay out of threads that are well above your head.</p><p>btw, i have 2 accounts, i'll let you find my (multiple) HIGHER LEVEL t7 pvp toons yourself.</p>

[BadManHip]

Is it possible to like.....voteban Spider from the forums. I may only be a lvl 60 troub, but im sure as hell that he has no idea what he is talking about. I'd also like to say, troubs are [Removed for Content] on raids. I don't mean this to say that we [Removed for Content] a lot or that no one likes us. I mean that well......we are the mages [Removed for Content]. I occasionally get to go on raids wen we can fill a full x4, and i know that the main troub, is a [Removed for Content], and they said i should take notes, so that i too can be the [Removed for Content]. "Yo troub give me ur jesters cap now" "yes master" "we want PoTM" "yes master" "yo troub suck my...." "yes master"

[Spider]

<cite>VericSauvari wrote:</cite><blockquote>Spider wrote: <blockquote><p>accauly chief ive got a 23 troub AND a 46 troub in mostly fabeled an adorned and am well experianced</p><p>so untill u get off a blue easymode server and roll pvp why dont u take ur [I cannot control my vocabulary] comments and keep em to yourself huh ! </p><p>lets see if u can even GET a toon to 70 on a pvp server chief esspecialy while staying out of instances then maybie well talk </p></blockquote><p> You have no idea how utterly retarted you sound..jeebus i wish there was an /ignore mode on these forums or we could 1 star all of spiders posts into oblivion.</p><p> let the BIG BOYS talk spider, go back to farming t4 players with your 46 troubie. Until you actually hit endgame on ANY server as your troub you will always be viewed as not being able to UNDERSTAND the big picture as you do not 'live it' or you have not witnessed a 70 troubador in action in a raid.</p><p>do everyone a favor and stay out of threads that are well above your head.</p><p>btw, i have 2 accounts, i'll let you find my (multiple) HIGHER LEVEL t7 pvp toons yourself.</p></blockquote><p>and untill u get off ur i r leet radar rawr high horse 90% of the people in game will still think your an @$$  </p><p>get a clue man no one cares how much more " experiance" you have  im friends with almsot every raiding troub and inquis on the server you honestly think we dont talk about htis stuff ??? get real </p><p>and fyi jsut because your so pathetic that you can only learn by doing it yourself and making yourown mistakes doesnt mean that all of us are that sad  </p><p>i KNOW about the scaling issues [Removed for Content] but guess what there are still a LARGE percentage of non whiney troubs that get along perfectly fine inspite of it and dont [Removed for Content] and moan every 5 seconds about on the forums either </p><p>get over yourselves people seriously  what youve done in game is meaningless  i can easly read every detail of every post and topic on teh subject and after runing one or 2 raids do everythign u can do and possibly do it better  ...why ? because i can accualy LEARN by READING /gasp what a concept huh </p><p>im amazing that many of you ever made it out of school if you cant do the same </p>

[Vraneth]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>get over yourselves people seriously  what youve done in game is meaningless  i can easly read every detail of every post and topic on teh subject and after runing one or 2 raids do everythign u can do and possibly do it better  ...why ? because i can accualy LEARN by READING /gasp what a concept huh </p></blockquote><p> OMG you can read and follow written instructions, and actually comprehend what people write, you my friend must be one of the most bad [I cannot control my vocabulary] human beings there is, am I not right?</p><p>How about this, go do something that noone has done before or atleast something that you haven't read about before, and then come back and tell us that you did it better than anyone of us would ever have done and actually give some proof aswell. </p><p>Any [Removed for Content] can follow written instructions, sheez, I find it funny how you brag about something that every literate person in the world could do. </p>

[VericSauvari]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>VericSauvari wrote:</cite><blockquote>Spider wrote: <blockquote><p>accauly chief ive got a 23 troub AND a 46 troub in mostly fabeled an adorned and am well experianced</p><p>so untill u get off a blue easymode server and roll pvp why dont u take ur [I cannot control my vocabulary] comments and keep em to yourself huh ! </p><p>lets see if u can even GET a toon to 70 on a pvp server chief esspecialy while staying out of instances then maybie well talk </p></blockquote><p> You have no idea how utterly retarted you sound..jeebus i wish there was an /ignore mode on these forums or we could 1 star all of spiders posts into oblivion.</p><p> let the BIG BOYS talk spider, go back to farming t4 players with your 46 troubie. Until you actually hit endgame on ANY server as your troub you will always be viewed as not being able to UNDERSTAND the big picture as you do not 'live it' or you have not witnessed a 70 troubador in action in a raid.</p><p>do everyone a favor and stay out of threads that are well above your head.</p><p>btw, i have 2 accounts, i'll let you find my (multiple) HIGHER LEVEL t7 pvp toons yourself.</p></blockquote><p>and untill u get off ur i r leet radar rawr high horse 90% of the people in game will still think your an @$$  </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00"> I have yet to make an enemy in the troubador or dirge community nor do i have a legion of enemies on the crushbone server...</span> </p><p>get a clue man no one cares how much more " experiance" you have  im friends with almsot every raiding troub and inquis on the server you honestly think we dont talk about htis stuff ??? get real </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">doing verses knowing is completely different</span> </p><p>and fyi jsut because your so pathetic th<b><i>at you can only learn by doing it yourself and making yourown mistakes doesnt mean that all of us are that sad </i></b> </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">thats what we call learning from experience and improving yourself. i started off at parsing 200 in labs and WORKED my way up to parsing 900+ in labs by practice..i however am big enough to admit i have a long ways to go to hit the numbers other more experienced troubadors parse ( i only truely started to understand my class until starting t7, i was pretty clueless in tier5/6 with raiding, i was primarily a crafter and swan song buff bot in t5 :p)</span> </p><p>i KNOW about the scaling issues [Removed for Content] but guess what there are still a LARGE percentage of non whiney troubs that get along perfectly fine inspite of it and dont [Removed for Content] and moan every 5 seconds about on the forums either </p><p><span style="color: #00ff00">silence in the face of issues is never a answer, it only confirms that we are willing to put up with a raw deal. a hundred unhappy silent people is not cool. the forums are a place for us to discuss the issues that we have <i>experienced </i>in the game.</span> </p><p>get over yourselves people seriously  what youve done in game is meaningless  i can easly read every detail of every post and topic on teh subject and after runing one or 2 raids do everythign u can do and possibly do it better  ...why ? because i can accualy LEARN by READING /gasp what a concept huh </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">again...knowledge verses actively doing something is completely different. why do you think a majority of jobs in the real world require experience over degrees in college and university. I troll the inquisitor boards all the time..however i just never 'got' how to be a good raiding inquisitor.  Take for example arc wielding..i know the theory behind it..however i do not have the hands on experience to  tell a master wielder how to do their job. </span></p></blockquote>

[Trabbart]

<p> I espeically wnat to thnak Spider for his many coinributions to this board. It may all be white noise and writne bladly and incoperhensibrle. BUT he mya be the one to gte us of last place.</p><p>So thnax Spider</p><p>Ps.  Pls dont comment on my spelling, it was in honour of one of Spiders many disabilities. </p>

[Novusod]

I would like to thank all the positive troubies (spider included) who are trying to make this forum a better place by showing how troubies kick arss. The doomers, complainers, and whiners need to get off our forums. Did anyone ever think the reason troubs are the least played is because of all the doom and gloom on this forum. When I was newb I read the class forums to help me decide what class I wanted to level up for main. Going back as far as a year ago I remember seeing so much doom and gloom on this forum that I passed over the troubie at first. The classes I played before making a troubador my main: Warden (57) - retired Monk (28) - retired Swashbuckler (17) - deleted Illusionist (14) - deleted Assassin (16) - deleted Bruiser (48) - recently-retired, so I could raid full time on my troub

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> Did anyone ever think the reason troubs are the least played is because of > all the doom and gloom on this forum. </p><p>Actually, the reason they are least-played is <b>me</b>. </p><p>I confess! </p><p>A lot of people listen to me when choosing the class, and my doom-and-gloom drives them away from the troubadour. It's all my fault, and I will try to be better. </p><p>Here, let me try: "The troubadour is a great buffer!"</p><p>Was that better?</p>

[lubu1977]

<p>In addition to Trabart's comment and after reading all the posts ([Removed for Content] long), I would say Spider, U'r a "noob." Ok y would I say that?</p><p> Let me answer u, Level up your troub to 70 and raid for 1 month and then talk. Other than that, you just make yourself being ignorance player I've ever seen.</p><p> God, would u take an advice from a dude who haven't maxed out troub and raid for couple months for how to play troub to its best?</p><p> Comment sense, everyone would have 1 answer but Spider would answer yes cuz he's been rambling on how to play a troub when his troub not even lvl 60 or 50.</p><p> Before u say anything stupid, keep in mind. My troub (70) raid for 6months and I played eq2 since it came out. </p>

[BadManHip]

So, spider.....please leave thank you On a positive note, atleast we almost are always guranteed a spot in a raiding guild, if we have some talent.

[Cuz]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>im amazing that many of you ever made it out of school if you cant do the same </p></blockquote> No offense champ but you can't even copy and paste things in a word document to proof read for you. I think OpenOffice gives you a constant spell checker. Well either that or I installed something else around the same time that proof reads for me. Check it and let me know I guess. Anyways, this thread is a great example of why we're better off having a quiet class forum. A lot of us are very opinionated and quite a few of us can't be bothered to disagree with others without resulting to insults. This whole "You're a newb if you like the class" vs "You're stupid and a whiner if you don't" argument is getting old.

[BadManHip]

*Looks at spider about the calling people whiners if they don't like the class" i would like to say. most of us do like the class.....it just that we get no love, and I'm 100% sure this forum hasn't seen a dev in a solid year. Btw Firefox gives u a spellchecker

[Cuz]

<cite>BadManHippo wrote:</cite><blockquote> Btw Firefox gives u a spellchecker </blockquote> Ahhh that's it.

[Spider]

<p>ah thansk for all the lovely comments and concerns about my spelling .... </p><p>now grow the heck up and get on with it </p><p>i post from work between doing a million and one differnt thigns and i dont have time to  proof read everysingel thing i write and pass it through a spelling filter on the boards or elsewhere nor do i realy care to as u can understnd the words im attempting to write </p><p>as for my seplling its not from a lack of ability too spell its that due to a condition i suffer it DOES in fact look correctly spelled  so enuff already its gettign old </p><p>this is a game forum nto a college thiesis </p><p>secondly thanks to all the more positive troubies coming in and standing up finaly </p><p>jsut because a calss has issues doesnt mean that every post has to be trash talking it </p><p>you think troubs are the only calss with issues ? i mean cmon i play a troub and an inquis  but look at the inquis boards whiel yes there are complaints there followed with open and more friendly debate and discussion and all angles are normaly viewed </p><p>and yes i know i tend to shoot from the hip and get a little rowdy but hey thats my nature consider me the eternal antagonist  but one that gets positive results by playing devils advocate time and again . </p><p>ive got nothing personal against anyone here but i stand up for my beliefs and my opinions  are yours differnt ? great lets get crazy till its been discussed from every angle possible and soloutions are found im cool with that but lets leave the more venoumous comments about my spelling issues alone k ( fyi i did get a kick out of a few posters rather humous references though like the tribute post lol ) </p>

[VericSauvari]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>you think troubs are the only calss with issues ? i mean cmon i play a troub and an inquis  but look at the inquis boards whiel yes there are complaints there followed with open and more friendly debate and discussion and all angles are normaly viewed </p></blockquote><p>well since you brought up inquisitors..did you know that inquis's can out dps a troub with certain specs (1k+ parses consistantly)?  the day i found out that most healer classes can consistantly out dps me is the day my whine-o-meter went up a notch.</p><p>inquis conversations are probably more friendly and discussion is more balanced because they don't have it as bad as a lot of classes (btw...before you ask i have a 70 inquis)</p>

[Spider]

<cite>VericSauvari wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>you think troubs are the only calss with issues ? i mean cmon i play a troub and an inquis  but look at the inquis boards whiel yes there are complaints there followed with open and more friendly debate and discussion and all angles are normaly viewed </p></blockquote><p>well since you brought up inquisitors..did you know that inquis's can out dps a troub with certain specs (1k+ parses consistantly)?  the day i found out that most healer classes can consistantly out dps me is the day my whine-o-meter went up a notch.</p><p>inquis conversations are probably more friendly and discussion is more balanced because they don't have it as bad as a lot of classes (btw...before you ask i have a 70 inquis)</p></blockquote>acualy thats a major complaint of many inquis becaus emost dont want to dps they want to heal but are outclasses in healing by every other healer  sometimes even by pali's and necros

[Antryg Mistrose]

Yep, Spider has a ........................... level 47 Inquisitor too, so of course is the class authority. Any time a "pali's and necros" outheals an inquisitor, it is time to reroll.

[Cuz]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>VericSauvari wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>you think troubs are the only calss with issues ? i mean cmon i play a troub and an inquis  but look at the inquis boards whiel yes there are complaints there followed with open and more friendly debate and discussion and all angles are normaly viewed </p></blockquote><p>well since you brought up inquisitors..did you know that inquis's can out dps a troub with certain specs (1k+ parses consistantly)?  the day i found out that most healer classes can consistantly out dps me is the day my whine-o-meter went up a notch.</p><p>inquis conversations are probably more friendly and discussion is more balanced because they don't have it as bad as a lot of classes (btw...before you ask i have a 70 inquis)</p></blockquote>acualy thats a major complaint of many inquis becaus emost dont want to dps they want to heal but are outclasses in healing by every other healer  sometimes even by pali's and necros </blockquote> Bwahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahaha

[Spider]

Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>Yep, Spider has a ........................... level 47 Inquisitor too, so of course is the class authority. Any time a "pali's and necros" outheals an inquisitor, it is time to reroll. </blockquote><p> accauly i have a .........61 inquis that im raiding with on a regular basis so get a clue </p><p>and while the comment about palis an necros is a bit exagerated it make gets the point across </p><p>as healers go were on the short end of the stick but weve got great melee buffs so were relegated to the dps group  </p><p>and if u ever bothered to look at the inquis baords b4 commenting on them you would see all that in abundance being discussed daily </p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> and if u ever bothered to look at the inquis baords b4 commenting on them you > would see all that in abundance being discussed daily </p><p>To compare the troubles of the troubadour with those of the inquisitor is not reasonable. An inquisitor is a healer - one of the two type in prime demand for groups (tank and healer.) Inquisitor healing is excellent - I am willing to group anytime with an inquisitor as sole healer. To perform its primary function (healing), you need to be alert - watching health bars and planning your heals.</p><p>A troubadour belongs to that nebulous type called "support." As such, it's rarely desired except in raids. To perform its primary function (buffage) you can be afk. In fact, if I went afk during a raid, I don't think they would bother to stop pulling while I was gone.</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>A troubadour belongs to that nebulous type called "support." As such, it's rarely desired except in raids. To perform its primary function (buffage) you can be afk. In fact, if I went afk during a raid, I don't think they would bother to stop pulling while I was gone.</p></blockquote> That is my chief gripe on the class too.  After raiding as the MT Templar, a DPSing (and in KoS) crowd controlling Illusionist, and finally as a Dirge.  Troubador is just plain boring. Its the same in groups.  Tanking (done properly) is hard exacting work (especially when grouped with my more fabled DPS guildmates), solo healing (which outside Nizera and CMM is the only way I like grouping as a Templar), is similarly challenging (well sometimes anyway).   Illusionist, with perpetuality and therefore okay dps, the best crowd control in the game, and some of the best buffs, is just plain fun. Dirge too (before I betrayed to better fit the raiding needs of my new guild), was good fun, CoB being something you want to cast often (it actually HELPS you), Oration being a good emergency heal, and rezzes for when things get bad.  In groups melee are much more common than casters in my experience (and groups with 2 fighters the troubador hate buff doesn't help), so I found this supposedly also underpowered/balanced class great there too.  In HARD group content - nobody in their right mind would take a troubador over an illusionist, troub crowd control is a joke in contrast, dps and power regen are also inferior. I've also noticed when playing Troub, that (outside raids) the only groups that really want you are either caster heavy, or have a mage as the leader.  As a result I've been lfg for hours at a time.... My troubador has more master spells (almost fully mastered) than any of my other chars, which after barely 1 months play is a sad indicaton of how unpopular the class is -  The masters are almost entirely from the broker, and I paid only about 100plat for the lot, which should have been a warning sign when I first went shopping prior to betrayal.  I'm sure people will say after 1 month you need to 'learn to play your class'.  Well [Removed for Content], the class isn't that hard to play,  its a darn sight less positional/complicated than dirge and thats the easiest of the classes I've levelled to 70.

[roces9]

I know this horse has been beaten to death but I just wanted to add my 2 cp to this page. No, I'm not ub3r h4rd core and I'm only 67, but I've played a Troub since launch and have seen the class go through a lot of phases. I picked this class because I wanted to be like a Bard in EQLive where you could do a little bit of everything and no matter on the make up of the group or what you were doing, you were DOING something. I signed up knowing that I would focus on making other people better, but I also signed up thinking I could sing songs that did damage and had some utility. Let's look at the situation of Troubs today. Again I know that every else has rang this bell a thousand times, but the only time I log onto my troub is when my (caster) guild friends bug me to join their caster heavy group, or to raid and join the caster party. In a single group experience, I spend most of the time fighting with everyone to get them to do Heroic Opportunities right. I love HOs and I'm glad that the Scouts have the best HO starter.... but I don't want that to be my primary job in a group. The rest of the time in a single group I just wait... I *WAIT* for a single ^^^ Heroic add to wander into our group so that I can *FINALLY* use my Mez. When that happens I click my little hotbutton that says "/g Mezzing %T !!! You break it, you BUY IT!!" and I lock down the mob and in relief that I finally did something usefull and people noticed that I was in the group.... untill the tank/scout who either doesn't know what mezz is (you'd be supprised how many T7 players don't know what mez is), doesnt know that Troubs can mezz or just plain wasnt paying attention breaks it right away and my entire utility goes to [Removed for Content]. I don't even want to talk about soloing sans-charm. So, I rolled a Warden. I know that there are about 50 million of them on Kithicor, but there's a reason for that: They're usefull and are FUN TO PLAY. I can solo effectively and feel really needed in a group- two feelings that I definately don't get playing my Troub. Again, I'm not 70 with 100AAs, I don't think I have any Masters right now.... but I'm an ordinary Troub who signed up for a fun, involving, powerful Jack-of-all-trades class and after a few years, have gotten none of that.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> untill the tank/scout who either doesn't know what mezz is (you'd > be supprised how many T7 players don't know what mez is), doesnt > know that Troubs can mezz or just plain wasnt paying attention > breaks it right away </p><p>Or they break in on purpose so they can use their AoEs. They know the group can handle two ^^^ just fine, you know the group can handle two ^^^ just fine, and the only reason you mezzed was an attempt to feel useful.</p>

[Frigid2000]

<p>Troubs are actually quite desired in raids and groups.  </p><p>But someone earlier said it best.  In a raid, I could just stand there and hardly be missed.  Jester's Cap is neat, as is Precision, but they are hardly necessary in the grand scheme of things.</p><p><b>What is in question is not our usefulness in raids or groups. We bring a great deal to both.  It is our dps/soloability.</b></p><p>I would like to see a bit more in soloability/damage output.  Compared to most other classes, it takes me a long time to solo a mob.  My highest nuke doesn't even touch that of some other classes.  We are definitely stuck near the.. I would say, bottom four out of all the classes for dps.  Unless I stuck all of my AA's into damage output (which they're not to assist the guild in raids).  What amazes me is most high-damage scouts even get pets to summon in fights.  </p><p>We have a great job in raids and groups.  Buffing others.  That, I am fine with.  But the cost of such has left us severely lacking in the solo department and our buffs do not counter that lack.</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>I guess that I disagree. We can get into groups once the group has a tank, healer and DPS. If the group is missing any of that, you might be tolerated, but you are not in any way desired. I have NEVER EVER seen a single tell going</p><p>CT group looking for a troubadour.</p><p>In all my levels from 1-70, I NEVER got a blind group invite. Every other toon I have leveled gets blind invites from time-to-time. My Mystic gets them all the time. My warlock gets them frequently. My troubadour has gotten only one, and that was after he hit 70. My wife's templar has gotten a tell where someone offered to pay her if she came along.</p>

[Raahl]

<p>Having just started a Troubador alt, this thread has conviced me not to come to this forum.   The negativity reminds me so much of the Guardian forum after LU13 it's sickening.  I refuse to go down that path again.</p><p>So far my Troubador is fun.  Granted I'm only level 14 and have only solo'd.  But it is fun none the less.</p><p>Can the class be improved?  Probably.   I will fully admit that I have not played one enough to give detailed info on what's right and what's wrong witht he class.</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Having just started a Troubador alt, this thread has conviced me not to come to this forum.   The negativity reminds me so much of the Guardian forum after LU13 it's sickening.  I refuse to go down that path again.</p><p>So far my Troubador is fun.  Granted I'm only level 14 and have only solo'd.  But it is fun none the less.</p><p>Can the class be improved?  Probably.   I will fully admit that I have not played one enough to give detailed info on what's right and what's wrong witht he class.</p></blockquote> In all honesty, every class screams when they have actual or perceived negative changes, so its hard to pick the ones that cry wolf, as with changes ongoing there will always be angst in the forums. 've never played a low level troubador (betrayed at 70), but going from other's comments it is a fun class before scaling gets out of hand.  At 70, I can only compare it to the other classes I play, and its current state is not good.  Its a mage, but without mage level dps, and much more of an afk buff bot than illusionist.  NVM, you can always betray to dirge <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[VericSauvari]

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Having just started a <i><u><b>Troubador alt</b></u></i>, this thread has conviced me not to come to this forum.   The negativity reminds me so much of the Guardian forum after LU13 it's sickening.  I refuse to go down that path again.</p><p>So far my Troubador is fun.  Granted I'm only level 14 and have only solo'd.  But it is fun none the less.</p><p>Can the class be improved?  Probably.   I will fully admit that I have not played one enough to give detailed info on what's right and what's wrong witht he class.</p></blockquote> heh..keywords are  troubadour alt... thats the state of our class really...we are mostly alts or autofollow monkies. very few bards first, other class second players anymore for us

[Tri]

well it's vicious spiral and the lack of communication makes it worse. when a spell has been broken for 10 months before getting a "we know that this spell is broken and its on the to do list" you know it's not going right. a shorter response time would've allready beeen a huge improvement compared to how things were realized. The communication shucked, and that made the grumpy smurfs even grumpier.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> Having just started a Troubador alt, this thread has conviced > me not to come to this forum.   The negativity reminds me so > much of the Guardian forum after LU13 it's sickening.  I refuse > to go down that path again.</p><p>I am not sure what your point is Corwin. Are you saying that even if we have valid complaints, we should keep our thoughts to ourselves?</p><p>Speaking from my standpoint, I don't feel negative at all. I love EQ2 and enjoy it. The troubadour lacks a lot, though, and I see no reason not to make it known. There is a reason troubadours are the least-played class in the game even though they are highly sought after for raids.</p>

[Lovori]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> Having just started a Troubador alt, this thread has conviced > me not to come to this forum.   The negativity reminds me so > much of the Guardian forum after LU13 it's sickening.  I refuse > to go down that path again.</p><p>I am not sure what your point is Corwin. Are you saying that even if we have valid complaints, we should keep our thoughts to ourselves?</p><p>Speaking from my standpoint, I don't feel negative at all. I love EQ2 and enjoy it. The troubadour lacks a lot, though, and I see no reason not to make it known. There is a reason troubadours are the least-played class in the game even though they are highly sought after for raids.</p><p> I am not sure what your point is wulf no offense, but this subject has been done to death is already well known and not even half these posts are constructive. Its pretty much all negativity with an insult here and there or how ticked off or unhappy they are with the class. Obviously soe has stuck with there decision and there is nothing we can do nothing but suck it up rerolll or quit eq2. </p></blockquote>

[Cuz]

<cite>Lovorian wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote> <p> I am not sure what your point is wulf no offense, but this subject has been done to death is already well known and not even half these posts are constructive. Its pretty much all negativity with an insult here and there or how ticked off or unhappy they are with the class. Obviously soe has stuck with there decision and there is nothing we can do nothing but suck it up <span style="color: #cc0000">rerolll or quit eq2</span>. </p></blockquote></blockquote> #1 Check. Which might be moot because... #2 Looking likely.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> I am not sure what your point is wulf no offense,</p><p>My point was I wasn't sure what Corwin's point was. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>I didn't have a point of my own at that juncture - just wanted him to clear his up. </p><p>No offense taken.</p>

[Raahl]

Jeger_Wulf wrote: <blockquote>I am not sure what your point is Corwin. Are you saying that even if we have valid complaints, we should keep our thoughts to ourselves?</blockquote><p> My point is that this same thing happened in the Guardian forums and it eventually drove me away from the game because it was so negative and it affected my view of my class in that respect.</p><p>If you have valid complaints then post a constructive post about your complaint.  Try and be part of the solution.   I know it can be tough, but you get much better results this way.</p>

[Raahl]

<cite>VericSauvari wrote:</cite><blockquote>heh..keywords are  troubadour alt... thats the state of our class really...we are mostly alts or autofollow monkies. very few bards first, other class second players anymore for us </blockquote><p>LOL, The troubador is an alt only because I played a guardian first.  In time I may consider my troubador my main.  Currently I've played him more than my guardian last week.  Made it to level 18 and am still having fun.  I still haven't grouped with anyone else yet, but I hope to this week.</p><p>I can see that you are unhappy with your character.  There are two ways that you can react to this.  You can be a constuctive voice and be a beacon for other Troubadors to rally around or you can be a voice of discontent that drives people away.</p><p>I know it's tough and it seems that Sony doesn't listen.  But I urge you to take the first path.</p><p>I'm still very new to the troubador class, someone with more experiance should take the lead and become a constructive voice on the forums.</p>

[Raahl]

<p>Veric - BTW I have just read a few of the helpful, informative stickied threads.  And I would say that you have contributed a lot of constructive posts in this forum.  I've gotten so use to people complaining that don't post anything constructive, so I misjudged you.</p><p>I apologize.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>I think I agree with you Corwin. However, it is necessary to establish that a class needs help before you start constructive threads about how to help them . <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I hope you enjoy yours, but they start running into a wall around 50. Their damage seems to drop of relative to other classes and the special spells you get just are not that useful. </p><p>Charm is too short to be useful at low levels. Once you get to 70, it's long enough to be somewhat useful on occasion, but still too short for most cases. In addition, all mobs have been immune on every raid I have been on.</p><p>Mez is in better shape than charm. I find it pretty useful in groups, but (as with charm) I have found raid mobs immune.</p><p>PotM is a great spell, but the root thing is an irritation. I hate hitting it, then being knocked back out-of-range.</p><p>Anyway, good luck with yours.</p><p>> I'm still very new to the troubador class, someone with more experiance > should take the lead and become a constructive voice on the forums.</p><p>A lot of troubadours have done that. Names that come to mind are VericSauvari, Bassist, Vinterskugge, but there are many many more. We have a stickied 15 page thread on ideas to improve the troubadour on this very forum. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>There is a 39 page thread here:</p><p> <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=266651" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=266651</a></p><p>and that replaced another huge thread iirc. If you want constructive suggestions, we've made a lot of them. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Raahl]

Thanks Jeger_Wulf.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Cuz]

<cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lovorian wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote> <p> I am not sure what your point is wulf no offense, but this subject has been done to death is already well known and not even half these posts are constructive. Its pretty much all negativity with an insult here and there or how ticked off or unhappy they are with the class. Obviously soe has stuck with there decision and there is nothing we can do nothing but suck it up <span style="color: #cc0000">rerolll or quit eq2</span>. </p></blockquote></blockquote> #1 Check. Which might be moot because... #2 Looking likely. </blockquote> #2 will happen as soon as I get things straightened out. So to those that love their troub, best to you; and to those who don't, best of luck to you. I'm done.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Another troub leaving. Good luck Cuz.</p>

[BadManHip]

The time is done for constructive posts, the first few months when they completely....destroyed this class was the time for constructive posts, but that time is done, and now its completely ridiculous 2 years later

[Novusod]

You realize all classes have been nerfed since the begining days. Troubador is still a playable and needed class. There are two high end guilds asking for troubadors to transfer servers. You don't see very much of that for the other classes. Go play some other classes and see how [Removed for Content] they are and then you will have a new appreciation for how good the troubie really is.

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>You realize all classes have been nerfed since the begining days. Troubador is still a playable and needed class. There are two high end guilds asking for troubadors to transfer servers. You don't see very much of that for the other classes. Go play some other classes and see how [Removed for Content] they are and then you will have a new appreciation for how good the troubie really is. </blockquote> Like Dirge or Illusionist perhaps?  Judging from your signature you haven't taken your own advice. I have played Dirge, Shadowknight, Illusionist and Templar to level 70. Nobody disputes how desirable troubadors are in raiding (which is how I've spent the majority of my time since betraying).  The problem is the buffs are nice, but the class itself is boring. A scout that spends 30sec of fights dazed and rooted isn't the most fun to play, or to justify getting melee damage up (gear/stats).  So you are left with a low dps mage plinking away with arrows.  Who can't even spare a concentration slot for a selfbuff, as the group buffs benefit the raid better.  Having raided as 4 other classes I can see why various guilds box a troubador.  The only really critical decison I make, is when to cast Bladedance.  Whopee ! Coercer looks to be in a similar state (except they do have control effects that work on epics).  Brawlers can at least DPS okay, and do the whole Polish Minesweeper FD thing. Bottom line - Give Alin's to another class and there is no reason to take a troubador on a raid.  And once you are 70/70/100 what else is there to do?

[Novusod]

I just retired a brawler because I think they are a truely broken class with no point. I also played a warden to high levels before retiring just because I think healing is boring. I like the challenge that it takes work to do real damage in raids. I got flawless shrill hitting for 2300 to 2600 all the time now but it took some time to figure it out. There is still lots to do on my troubador. I don't have a single piece of set gear from Mistmore's Inner Sanctum yet.

[Pogopuschel]

There's exactly 2 challenges for a Troub to do good damage: - Get Masters and gear suitable for your class - Get the buffs from group members that increase your damage the most Oh wait, that's true for pretty much every class... hmm. The next one sounds sarcastic but it's not meant to be: I do not consider finding out that casting Guviena's before Shrill or Eli's increases the dps you get out of them a challenge. But I also disagree with Antryg: You want the Troubadour for Aria too. Also, JC can save lives. The mana regen is a nice bonus, the Bladedance kind of a must. So the Troub probably has a key role on some encounters that require - burst dps - AE immunity Something you cannot box well really... However, the most fun in the class to me is killing the warlock with an early PotM plus unannounced JC at the beginning of a multi-mob-encounter. Just joking.. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Novusod]

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>I do not consider finding out that casting Guviena's before Shrill or Eli's increases the dps you get out of them a challenge. </blockquote>You need some AA to do this but the combo is: Lore's Euphuistic Romp -> Guviena's Apathetic Chant -> Bump (puts into stealth) -> Clara's Midnight Tempo -> Dancing Blade -> Flawless Shrill -> Noble Blade -> Eli's Thunderous Drumming The combo does between 7000 and 10000 damage in 10 seconds. I had clara's crit the other day at 3000 so there is potential to do even better.

[Pogopuschel]

AGI-line is not viable for EoF raiding, so I don't have Bump anymore, I had it in my early raiding days though and I miss it. Maxed STR/WIS instead. The combo you mention is nice but, again no offense meant, not all that special: Every class I can think of will debuff asap on any longer fight. Everything you do at the beginning is a debuff (except Bump, but you use that one to get out another debuff asap), then you nuke. The sequence of Eli, Shrill and Blade will not matter much. Could attempt to put "Eli's -> Shrill -> Noble Blade -> Sandra's (even if it has low damage) -> Eli's" (yes, Eli's twice - will work only properly with maxed EoF AAs for it) for a little more sustained dps.

[Mildavyn]

<p>Some nice points all, however, if i was going for MAX personal DPS, this is my usual routine.</p><p>Stealth -> Clara's on pull. Discante and demoralizing. Jester's cap self.</p><p>Zanders -> HO starter -> guv's apath chant -> dancing blade -> Kian's -> Perfect shrill -> Eli's -> Steal Essence</p><p>HO starter -> Lore's -> noble blade -> sandra's -> bump -> clara's</p><p>HO starter -> evade -> sandras</p><p>Can easily put out 1200 DPS with good gear.</p>

[Tri]

Challenge as a troub? <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Queuing skills and button smashing is not a challenge. The only chalenge is being a group action coordinator. That is telling your guild mates how Jester's Cap and Precision of the Maestro work in order for the group to establish a group ability cycling order. And just like your personnal spell / CA cycling once you've got the hang of it, it pretty much becomes button smashing, macro 1, macro 2, back to button smashing. And all that button smashing only to get moderate DPS ( 900 to 1300 dps whith a raid setup ). And if there is no other troub in raid, which is usually the case, i keep JC in case someone asks for it in the raid, like a tank or healer. It's just like for the items i feel, they have a point system allowing overall balanced stats, when distributing points in the Troub, everything went into Proc buff and Hate reducer buff. The fix to this it seems, because even the devs had to acknowledge something wasn't right, was Jester's Cap. The potential of JC is huge but, once again, it depends on how OTHER players use it. Which other class can be summed by 3 skills? Two of them being passive buffs. Toss in Mezz for group play, but here you have the 25% resist rate in C MM issue, even though you have the master spell, 3 points in the Mezz AA decreasing resists and +10 to subjugation. Bards and their skill points is another domain nedding tweaking, last time i had a 68.5 hit rate  in Deathtoll <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Pardon my english, and feel free to flame, or not <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Tri]

hmmm sorry that isn't really the topic of this board. <img src="/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> This gives me a nice place on the parser, but it really isn't the best thing thing to do raidwise cast PotM before the pull, cast all your debuffs and try to get an HO or two in > Eli's > other spells > Eli's cancel PotM ( you also get to recast it by the end of the fight like this ) Bow CA > sneak while running in melee range > Clara After this you just spam your abilities, try to time melee swings and  try to use Eli's as often as possible.

[Rufio]

<p>I think some people are getting too tied up in the "who has the biggest [Removed for Content] battle here" aka I can out DPS you and your mom I pwn all noobz RarGh. Now back to reality, we are a utility class, we buff and support the group depending on composition and that is all we do. Sure we can heal, regen power, buff str/sta etc and that is fine because we do these and it has effect within the groups we play in. We are a jack of all trades and master of none and that is all we are.</p><p>If you want DPS stop whining and reroll or [Removed for Content] and play your troub.</p>

[Pogopuschel]

Wrong... Since most of our buffs are passive, every bard should put their "free time" to good use. That in the end means putting out as much damage as possible while prioritizing the two active buffs we have. If you are happy buffing your group alone, that's fine... but you don't need to play actively for that, an auto-follow two-boxed buff bot will do. And that is the image the people worrying about their dps are desperately trying to drop... which is good in my opinion. Why should any class  not help their group/raid as much as they can? Btw. we get no heal, that's only Dirges.

[Magnethjelmen2]

I can only say one thing. REROLL IF YOU WANT TO DPS! A bard is not a dps class, deal and live with it! A bard is a utility class, with a medium amount of DPS, and you will never be able to do as much dps as the rouges and the predators. Seen from a rangers PoV, we can do alot dps, but we have aboslutly nada buffs to a group. A troub are the "Jack of all trades, master of none". And that is a fact! Offcourse we are supposed to do as much dps in raids as possible. And personally I think its fair that we only can do 900-1300dps in a raid, we will never be able to get over the 2000 like a predator because we have so many buffs to the group.

[HollyW07]

<p>Wow this thread kept me entertained for 3 hours while at work. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I love reading this kind of stuff. Posts from higher level players who really know the game and can give good advice and criticism where it's needed. You really start to learn alot about the do's and don'ts of a class. </p><p>My trouby is only lvl 25. I've played the game since launch but I sorta skip around on MMO's. I get bored easily and tend to play off and on. Currently I'm in my on again stage. My trouby is sitting on a shelf collecting dust but she was the first toon I ever made in this game. I loved her at first but it's already even now getting harder to solo stuff and solo is mostly what I do at this point. </p><p>So I rolled an assassin and she's up to lvl 32 now and most of the time I have a hard time keeping aggro off her in a group. Wee it's fun! </p><p>Still, once I reach 70 with my 'sin I'm planning to lvl up my trouby for my guild since my guild has no troubies. </p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> I can only say one thing. REROLL IF YOU WANT TO DPS!</p><p>Unfortunately, that's what a lot of us do. My warlock is 60 and a BUNCH of fun. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Rerolling helps me out, but I am not sure it helps troubadours or raiders who want troubadours in their raids.</p>

[Rufio]

<p>I think it is just a mentality that you must have to lvl and keep a high lvl troub. I have a 27 troub at the moment, I had a 49 one before but deleted him for rerolling and trying other classes. I remade my troub because my guild has no high end troubs, and I think I can lvl the class fastest because I have done it before and I know how to play him well.</p><p>Having said that, I have a different mindset when playing my troub, I don`t burn through targets and hit for 10k dmg in a single shot, I am there to support others and I quite enjoy this and think as a troub you can do this well. I have played this game for 1012 days which is enough experience to say that I have been there and done that. I have done the whole raid fabled uberness and now it is time to help the new people coming from WoW or vanguard or whever to do quests and introduce them to the game because we need more ppl and it only helps being a friendly and constructive member of a party.</p><p>With a troub you can duo with any other character and take out named around your lvl without too much drama, for example I took a lower lvl group through some of the lightstone HQ yesterday and they had a ball. We died a few times but we did things slowly and without a tank or healer, they enjoyed it and learnt far more than they had in previous groups.</p><p>This is just one way you can play your troub, another is to whine about lack of this and why isn`t my bard`s trumpet as long or upright as my other party members` type of complaint. If you take a step back for a second, really take a step back and think do I want to whine or be positive and constructive? Sure we have had some bad things thrown upon us by the devs of the game, but it doesn`t mean we aren`t an appreciated member of the party.</p><p>I am going to finish the lightstone quest tonight and help some others do it, mentored and getting 75% less exp but helping others learn the game that I love.</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> This is just one way you can play your troub, another > is to whine about lack of this and why isn`t my bard`s > trumpet as long or upright as my other party members` > type of complaint. </p><p>Yet another way is to make valid complaints about the state of the troubadour in an attempt to get things changed. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[mawis]

i think the main challenge of playing a troubador is learning caution <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Just rerolled a trob after playing a monk to 63, my ikkle one is only 19 atm but i have had so many deaths due to my playstyle <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The problem im having isnt with the actuall class though its with myself. Im so used to pushing the limits with my char, fighting things i should really stay away from and questing in areas everyone says im too low for. Playing my troub has provided unique challenges for me in the form of learning to resist trying that mob 4 levels higher than i am, having to watch where i fight as to not get extra mobs i cant handle and not having feign death to fall back on when i do get in over my head. So far im really enjoying this, sure it doesnt mesh with my usual playstyle but im finding the class fun and interesting to play so hopefully i'll be joining in with the troub at 70 discussions before too long <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jeger_Wulf]

Good luck Mawis, we need more troubs!! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />