Assassin utility

[Siclone]

<p>I am trying to think if Assassin's have any unique ability at all.  There is allot of talk about DPS and how some classes should not be so close, or beating us, and yes in the perfect world that is true.  But it may not possible to balance classes 1-70, the casual groupers, casual raiders and hardcore raiders.  Where as one might be getting his butt kicked by someone that should not be beating him in a hard core fully geared situation, in a more causal broker geared group it might be just the opposite.  If you have the majority of players in causal groups, the raid assassin gets screwed.  So SOE looks at the avage numbers and says,, "looks good no problem"-I think regardless of the numbers, there is allot more to dps such as we have to spend the gold to get the poisons just to get the dps we get, also the positioning is a pain ect ect </p><p>So what about utility though? I was in BB and a wizzy ported in and I was thinking that is cool, to be able to port around.  I had to kill a ^^^ named 70  so I was like hey you in a group maybe your group can help me kill him.  He said no I can just solo that for you.  Which he went right ahead in did, rooted then mana burn he was dead soon.  So I am thinking to myself not only can this guy put out as much dps in a raid as me, he can fly around by porting and solo stuff that would kill me in just a few seconds.  Which led me thinking what can I do that he cant?  And I could not think of a thing.</p><p>Now I don't know allot about other classes like most so sort of posting here to try to learn.  I know conj get CoH which is really cool and can really pump out the dps and maybe the best soloer in the game.  Swashies have group invis that other classes don't have right? And a boat load of neat little tricks and we know they can pump out as much dps as us in the right situation if not more.  Brawlers have FD which we all know rocks. Paladin has lay of hand, SK life tap. Druids can port among other things. We have hate transfer but don't other classes get that too? many classes have evac, anyone can have stealth with totems.  Stealth is over rated anyway, go to anyplace that matters and they all see invis.  </p><p>I mean do we have any utility at all? If not what would be a good utility for an Assassin? </p>

[PixelPunk]

How about one of these: 1)  True invisibility/stealth to everything.  Sure wont help kill things, but would really help the sneaking assasin get around Not a real overbalancing game killer here.  Might erk some of those totem carrying pvpers though.  I mean why have stealth in the first place if  almost everything can see through it. 2)  Distraction.  Why not be able to distract an opponent with a duplicate of yourself(or even just a rock) so you can get around something that would normally aggro you on site and can see through stealth.  Similar to a summoner/illusionist pet, but unable to do any damage and dissapears upon any damage.  Short lasting controllable pet spell.  Spell resistance will cause the pet to be ignored. 3)  In combat instant stealth in plain site that makes/keeps you stealthed without having to stun or stiffle the oponent/baddie. Just one of these would add a lot of flavor to the assasin and make it unique. More than one would really unbalance things.

[Graton]

we already have more utility than i care for. i'd prefer to have nothing added. more utility only means justification for no longer being t1 dps in the future.

[Stormwitt]

<cite>Graton wrote:</cite><blockquote>we already have more utility than i care for. i'd prefer to have nothing added. more utility only means justification for no longer being t1 dps in the future. </blockquote>I agree with this. Just keep us assassins nice and sharp pls <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> no fluff needed.

[Siclone]

<cite>Graton wrote:</cite><blockquote>we already have more utility than i care for. i'd prefer to have nothing added. more utility only means justification for no longer being t1 dps in the future. </blockquote><p>I hear what your saying, But honestly I dont think we have <u>any</u> utility, that masses of classes don't have.  I mean I dont think if a Wiz tops the dps charts, peeps will say nerf him cause he can port.</p><p>Just something that makes a class unique would be nice.  Nothing serious but something--Personally I like the idea of a real invis, like in EQ1.  If the mob is a white or lower not a named or epic, he cant see your stealth-period- give that to rangers and assassins.  </p><p>I just feel every class should have something unique or every sub class.  </p>

[HellRaiserXX]

<cite>Graton wrote:</cite><blockquote>we already have more utility than i care for. i'd prefer to have nothing added. more utility only means justification for no longer being t1 dps in the future. </blockquote> I concur as well.  I started an assassin from the beginning because they had so little utility and would rather not have any more.

[LoreLady]

Most assassins (preds/sorc's) I have talked to would rather be stripped of every buff, debuff, runspeed modifier, procs, power feed junk for more damage. Personally, I would rather everything be stripped and be completely damage.

[Jvaloth]

<p>I'd love to be pure DPS with no utility.  But if our DPS is being challenged by countless classes, we deserve some utility, something to offer other than just DPS.</p>

[Jayad]

Even wizards & warlocks have more utility in some fashion. Rangers are the only other class with as little as assassins. (You could argue even worse off, since they don't have a hate transfer, although in DPS groups that's actually a good thing)

[khufure]

<cite>Jayad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even wizards & warlocks have more utility in some fashion. Rangers are the only other class with as little as assassins. (You could argue even worse off, since they don't have a hate transfer, although in DPS groups that's actually a good thing)</blockquote>Our poison buff is pretty good!  Except it uhh.. seems to drop us out of stealth whenever it procs.  Oops.

[PixelPunk]

Rangers do have some decent AA in the EOF area.  It is not all directly related to tiny increases to existing skills. And if the Assasin really was "the" top teir dps, then who needs the utility.  That would be our utility. Too many posts have stated we are not the top DPSer though.  I still like my assasin and wouldnt trade her for anything.  So much fun to play.

[samejima]

<cite>LoreLady wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most assassins (preds/sorc's) I have talked to would rather be stripped of every buff, debuff, runspeed modifier, <span style="font-size: large"><span style="color: #990000"><b>procs</b></span></span>, power feed junk for more damage. Personally, I would rather everything be stripped and be completely damage. </blockquote> You might be getting out parsed because you have no understanding of how to improve DPS. Procs and crits are the best way for any DPS class to increase their damage output.  

[LoreLady]

Razieh@Nektulos wrote: <blockquote><cite>LoreLady wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most assassins (preds/sorc's) I have talked to would rather be stripped of every buff, debuff, runspeed modifier, <span style="font-size: large"><span style="color: #990000"><b>procs</b></span></span>, power feed junk for more damage. Personally, I would rather everything be stripped and be completely damage. </blockquote> You might be getting out parsed because you have no understanding of how to improve DPS. Procs and crits are the best way for any DPS class to increase their damage output.   </blockquote>And you need to learn how to read before posting. I said strip every buff including procs (wizards/warlocks/assassins) all get procs to put on other people but are useless to themselves.. I also said strip everything to improve dps. Really, how many people come on here just looking for a fight and just want to bash other people? Seriously, get your eyes checked - or go have some fun.

[Siclone]

<cite>Jayad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even wizards & warlocks have more utility in some fashion. Rangers are the only other class with as little as assassins. (You could argue even worse off, since they don't have a hate transfer, although in DPS groups that's actually a good thing)</blockquote> could you explain how not having a hate transfer in a dps group is a good thing?

[whytakemine]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jayad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even wizards & warlocks have more utility in some fashion. Rangers are the only other class with as little as assassins. (You could argue even worse off, since they don't have a hate transfer, although in DPS groups that's actually a good thing)</blockquote> could you explain how not having a hate transfer in a dps group is a good thing? </blockquote><p>A hate transfer is better than nothing, but in a dps group a passive deaggro (like what rangers get) is better for two reasons.</p><p>1.  It's a higher percentage deaggro (rangers lose 41%, assassins lose 29%)</p><p>2.  Occasionally you don't have a good target to put a hate transfer on.  If you have no bard and your healer is a fury, if you throw your hate transfer on the fury and they nuke hard enough there's a chance you're going to get them killed. </p>

[Jvaloth]

<p>I'd take my chances and put the hate transfer on the bard! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Very seldom have I ever gotten a bard killed with hate dump.</p>

[whytakemine]

<cite>whytakemine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Siclone wrote: <p>2.  Occasionally you don't have a good target to put a hate transfer on.  If you have <span style="color: #ffff00"><b>no bard</b> </span>and your healer is a fury, if you throw your hate transfer on the fury and they nuke hard enough there's a chance you're going to get them killed. </p></blockquote>But then I raid with an alliance, and we often only have two bards (dirge in MT group, and a troub).  Even then it's pretty rare I can't find someone to put my hate xfer on, but it does happen.

[HellRaiserXX]

when that happens I usually just switch to Ignorant Bliss poisons. Still have to be more careful, but can still go at a pretty good clip.  Usually if I am in that situation its because I am in a crappy group lol.

[Siclone]

<cite>whytakemine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>whytakemine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Siclone wrote: <p>2.  Occasionally you don't have a good target to put a hate transfer on.  If you have <span style="color: #ffff00"><b>no bard</b> </span>and your healer is a fury, if you throw your hate transfer on the fury and they nuke hard enough there's a chance you're going to get them killed. </p></blockquote>But then I raid with an alliance, and we often only have two bards (dirge in MT group, and a troub).  Even then it's pretty rare I can't find someone to put my hate xfer on, but it does happen. </blockquote> funny, I qet quoted all the time for things I did not say.  I never said that??

[Siclone]

<cite>whytakemine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jayad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even wizards & warlocks have more utility in some fashion. Rangers are the only other class with as little as assassins. (You could argue even worse off, since they don't have a hate transfer, although in DPS groups that's actually a good thing)</blockquote> could you explain how not having a hate transfer in a dps group is a good thing? </blockquote><p>A hate transfer is better than nothing, but in a dps group a passive deaggro (like what rangers get) is better for two reasons.</p><p>1.  It's a higher percentage deaggro (rangers lose 41%, assassins lose 29%)</p><p>2.  Occasionally you don't have a good target to put a hate transfer on.  If you have no bard and your healer is a fury, if you throw your hate transfer on the fury and they nuke hard enough there's a chance you're going to get them killed. </p></blockquote>ah so rangers do have a de-hate, it just works different. 

[LoreLady]

To the person who posted about wizards/warlocks utility.. They get "some", we get "some" to.. Look at all the poisons we can take advantage of, as well as the greater hate reductions.

[Siclone]

<p>You know what the bottom line on this is</p><p> -there is not significant difference in DPS among the DPS classes.  Some classes pump out more dps in situation x some in y and even some in Z-</p><p>All good players with great gear, can pump out dps, sure you may top the chart more often cause you have uber stuff, and get in great dps groups,  but someone of another dps class with same uber stuff can still pump out serious dps , the difference is not going to be enough that its not going to matter to a raid-Besides the parse is overrated, it does not show the boost other classes give the raid such as debuffs and buffs to players.</p><p>Its not uncommon for assassins to get beat by any other class of equal player skill and equipment.  </p><p>They already said that the tier DPS was a mistake.  </p><p>So why are you still holding on the "more utility means less dps stuff"  We already have the same DPS as all the other DPS classes.  I don't understand this.  I seen parse after Parse all classes can top them.  I have seen Zerks on the top 5 for crying out loud.</p><p>Stop pretending Assassins are uber DPS compared to other classes. They are not.  Assassins are just like all the other DPS classes.  We just have to work harder for it, have to have fabled weapons and spend coin on poisons to match other classes that sit back and push a few buttons.</p><p> And lets ask for more utility to make the game more fun even if a 5 percent dps nerf cost a few cool things, like a true invis, or a feign death, an instant stealth and complete agro lost, a group dps bost.  A frontal arrow attack like our neck shot so you can actually do some damage when the AE goes off,  At least then you will have an excuse not to be on top of the parse.  </p><p>Truth be told, dps same as other dps classes, solubility is the sux, and group and raid benefits is poor.  </p><p>The response is always don't want utility I want massive dps,,,well you have little utility and you don't have massive dps relative to other classes, you just have less to offer.  </p>

[Kaiser Sigma]

Reroll another class and don't polute these forums again?

[HellRaiserXX]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You know what the bottom line on this is</p><p> <b>-there is not significant difference in DPS among the DPS classes.  Some classes pump out more dps in situation x some in y and even some in Z-</b></p><p>All good players with great gear, can pump out dps, sure you may top the chart more often cause you have uber stuff, and get in great dps groups,  but someone of another dps class with same uber stuff can still pump out serious dps , the difference is not going to be enough that its not going to matter to a raid-Besides the parse is overrated, it does not show the boost other classes give the raid such as debuffs and buffs to players.</p><p>Its not uncommon for assassins to get beat by any other class of equal player skill and equipment.  </p><p>They already said that the tier DPS was a mistake.  </p><p>So why are you still holding on the "more utility means less dps stuff"  We already have the same DPS as all the other DPS classes.  I don't understand this.  I seen parse after Parse all classes can top them.  I have seen Zerks on the top 5 for crying out loud.</p><p>Stop pretending Assassins are uber DPS compared to other classes. They are not.  Assassins are just like all the other DPS classes.  We just have to work harder for it, have to have fabled weapons and spend coin on poisons to match other classes that sit back and push a few buttons.</p><p> And lets ask for more utility to make the game more fun even if a 5 percent dps nerf cost a few cool things, like a true invis, or a feign death, an instant stealth and complete agro lost, a group dps bost.  A frontal arrow attack like our neck shot so you can actually do some damage when the AE goes off,  At least then you will have an excuse not to be on top of the parse.  </p><p>Truth be told, dps same as other dps classes, solubility is the sux, and group and raid benefits is poor.  </p><p>The response is always don't want utility I want massive dps,,,well you have little utility and you don't have massive dps relative to other classes, you just have less to offer.  </p></blockquote><p>Exactly, thats why things are balanced right now. </p><p>This goes back to assassins doing way more DPS than everyone in KoS. For some reason its assumed that assassins should do more DPS than everyone else, I dont get that.  Assassins do massive DPS.  Massive DPS doesnt mean more DPS than everyone else, it just means massive DPS.  Other classes can do massive DPS too, so what? No one is pretending assassins can still do DPS over everyone else like we did in KoS because that would be rediculous. Gear doesn't matter as much as buffs really.  Generally most raids are going to be fairly equally geared and so the differences will be in who has the better buffs.  Give an assassin the better buffs and they will win most parses.  Give someone else the better buffs and they will win most of the parses. With equal buffs, that is where better gear will make the difference. Like with me and Nivla (other assassin), when we have equal buffs he tops me by about 200-300DPS on most fights and zonewide, thats almost entirely because his weapons are better than mine.  He has GdoH and Ancient Scimitar of Wounding; I use Dirk of Neg and the one from CMF which is pretty much identical to DoN, Magnetic something or other.</p><p>How are any of those things utility? Utility are things that benefit the raid.  True invis, FD, instant stealth, aggro dump, frontal bow; none of that is something a raid would care about.  Grp DPS boost? why lol. theres already quite a few classes that can do that, not going to need any more really.</p><p>Utility is Utility and DPS is DPS, they are seperate entities even though they are often both present in one class and utility affects DPS on the whole, but for selecting classes for a raid they are seperate.  When a raid wants Utility they will take a class who has that desired utility regardless of how much DPS they do. I garauntee that when a raid wants a swashy for traumatic swipe they could really care less if that swashy does 1000DPS or 3000, they want traumatic swipe. If they dont need more utility and just want more DPS it doesnt matter that that class may also have good utility, its just another DPS class and most of the time they will take the class that they dont already have in the raid because each class adds something no matter how small and its better to diversify a raid as much as possible than just having multiples of one class.  </p><p>LOL Karel</p>

[Wallzak]

<p>This has nothing to do with "pure" utility, however I think it's a cool idea.</p><p>Someone mentioned a true invis... and I agree.</p><p>Assassin's should be masters at hiding... and what I would suggest... disguising.  I would be neat to see an ability (that actually works vs a fluff spell) that would allow us to disguise ourselves to get us in and out of situations (maybe similar to the illusionists spell that makes a copy of themselves, we would be able to copy something in zone).  Just an idea <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[judged_one]

HellRaiserXX wrote: <span style="font-size: 11px"><span style="color: #444444" class="Apple-style-span">hey will take the class that they dont already have in the raid because each class adds something no matter how smal</span></span> LOL Just like every raiding guild would go with a sk over an extra swashy for the "diversify" of a raid.  Just like every raiding guild would go with a ranger last tier instead of a brigand for the "diversify" of a raid. you have no clue... Simply Swashy DPS given their utilityis too close to assassin, in many case exceed assassin to be balance.

[Jayad]

What can an assassin do that a swashy can't? But the reverse isn't true. That's because swashy util > assassin utility, as it should be. Swashies are basically like better assasins now.

[HellRaiserXX]

omg [Removed for Content] happened lol

[HellRaiserXX]

<cite>judged_one wrote:</cite><blockquote>HellRaiserXX wrote: <span style="font-size: 11px"><span style="color: #444444" class="Apple-style-span">hey will take the class that they dont already have in the raid because each class adds something no matter how smal</span></span> LOL Just like every raiding guild would go with a sk over an extra swashy for the "diversify" of a raid.  Just like every raiding guild would go with a ranger last tier instead of a brigand for the "diversify" of a raid. you have no clue... Simply Swashy DPS given their utilityis too close to assassin, in many case exceed assassin to be balance. </blockquote><p>If you dont need the utility or extra DPS then a swashy and an SK just fill a spot in the raid.  When you just have spots to fill it doesnt really matter who fills those spots now does it? Let me put it another way.  You build the raid in such a way that gives it the best chance of succeeding right? Now if the encounter is trivial and cake it doesn't matter a whole lot who is in the raid beyond the basic necessity classes. So yes a raid might take an SK over a swashy.  If the encounter is harder you take the classes that will give the best chance at winning.  When my guild was first killing Cheldrak they sat out the assassins for an extra bard and brigand for the added utility. Now we dont need the extra utility and as long as theres enough of each class type to kill the various adds it doesnt matter if its an assassin, bard, or brig in those spots.</p><p>Guilds that aren't as powerful need to run with the best setup more often and so some classes are going to get shafted because they lack utility, dps or both. The point is when you need utility in the raid the amount of DPS the class does doesnt really matter and when you need more DPS it doesnt really matter what utility they do and when you dont need more of either it doesnt really matter what goes in that spot.   </p>

[HellRaiserXX]

duplicate

[Chij]

<cite>Jayad wrote:</cite><blockquote>What can an assassin do that a swashy can't? But the reverse isn't true. That's because swashy util > assassin utility, as it should be. Swashies are basically like better assasins now.</blockquote><p> Not true... my bro has been playing a swashy up with my assassin, for a new raid main... just for two parse gods in the guild... we've switched guilds since then... and we've been getting the break down on utilty since... the only reason a swashy can out dps an Assassin is because most of their attacks carry a heavy debuff... not to mention the debuffs they have... assassin... we debuff... just not as well as a swashy... we just hit harder... ALOT harder... my hardest non backstab CA at 48 is almost as hard as his at 62... For him to truly out parse the guild's main raid Assassin, it's completely situational... if they're in the same group getting the same buffs... the assassin owns... Trust me, I sit there and watch them raid when i can't find a group....  </p><p>So this is a new Assassin with dreams of taking over Main raid spot... if Devs gave us better utilities... more debuffs... or better debuffs than we have... alot of the things you all mentioned are all better solo abilities... true invise or distraction... want to give me a "distraction" ability??? make it a stun that works on epics and you have like 30s for 50% melee/spell crit chance increase... can see it now....</p><p> "%T is going be destracted in 10s" "%T is Destracted...  BURN 'EM DOWN"</p>

[HellRaiserXX]

<p>If you are comparing just assassin and swashy utility/debuffs.  Assassins have probably the highest Defense debuffs of any class in the game, twice what swashies have.  Assassins poison debuffs are massive in comparison.  With Intoxication and Neurotoxic Coating maxed we might be able to debuff offensive skills more as well, not sure how much swashies debuff in that department.  Hate transfer is roughly the same, theirs is better in KoS because of there being much more group encounters, ours is better in EoF because there are much more single encounters. Sure they can also do a lot more that we cant and probably most of our debuffs are going to be made up by other classes, big deal, we weren't meant to be a utility class.</p>

[rshoffstall]

<p>I am a 49 Froglock Assassin. I have read this post and I think the Assassin are great as is. </p><p>I have been out parsed some but not often. </p><p>I dont think we need more utility. </p><p>If anything I think the only thing a Assassin needs is a fun spell that says "Dammit Turn the Mob" and that will make me happy.</p><p>Annmarie</p>

[khufure]

<cite>Chij wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jayad wrote:</cite><blockquote>What can an assassin do that a swashy can't? But the reverse isn't true. That's because swashy util > assassin utility, as it should be. Swashies are basically like better assasins now.</blockquote><p> Not true... my bro has been playing a swashy up with my assassin, for a new raid main... just for two parse gods in the guild... we've switched guilds since then... and we've been getting the break down on utilty since... the only reason a swashy can out dps an Assassin is because most of their attacks carry a heavy debuff... not to mention the debuffs they have... assassin... we debuff... just not as well as a swashy... we just hit harder... ALOT harder... my hardest non backstab CA at 48 is almost as hard as his at 62... For him to truly out parse the guild's main raid Assassin, it's completely situational... if they're in the same group getting the same buffs... the assassin owns... Trust me, I sit there and watch them raid when i can't find a group....  </p><p>So this is a new Assassin with dreams of taking over Main raid spot... if Devs gave us better utilities... more debuffs... or better debuffs than we have... alot of the things you all mentioned are all better solo abilities... true invise or distraction... want to give me a "distraction" ability??? make it a stun that works on epics and you have like 30s for 50% melee/spell crit chance increase... can see it now....</p><p> "%T is going be destracted in 10s" "%T is Destracted...  BURN 'EM DOWN"</p></blockquote>Uhm no.  Swashy stop the mob from damaging the MT.  Assassin pretty much just beats things up. DPS wise, the swashy has a higher top-end.  But this top-end requires some things : best 1H in game, 100AA, smart group decisions.  The assassin just needs much more common weapons, 50AA, and a decent group.

[StrummaTune]

Assassin Utility Siclone, I've read through this post, and I want to try to convey what you are saying to others. DPS is in many ways the same for certain classes that try to maximize their dps. I have a t7 swash and a t7 assassin; I've been raiding for a long time, and I know alot about how classes maximize their dps. The thing I think that Siclone is trying to point out is that assassin dps and assassin class in general has nothing to set it apart from other classes. First off, I find it kinda funny that now when you create a character; if you look under the rogue section, you'll see 3 classes...Brigand, Swash, and Assassin. But that point aside, lets look at setting apart each class. Sorcerers get ports. Wizards try to make their slow-casting high damage nukes hit harder(Dmg Sp. crit, "next spell will do 10% more damage", etc.) Warlocks are the same in some ways but maybe not to the extent of wizards. Wizards get manaburn, thus another factor that sets them apart. Rogues(excluding the assassin) use one-handers, with their secondary hands open. That's a setting aside factor. Rogues do their damage by debuffing the mob, therefore hitting it harder by decreasing mit, and decreasing the amount it hits for. Swash's get Traumatic Swipe, huricane, Lung Puncture(which by the way debuffs skills more than Intoxication), and self haste for around 69ish. Brigands get Dispatch. These are huge set-aside factors. Now to talk a bit about their DPS. It's much like warrior and shadowknight and any other melee DPS, timing your CA's. Timing your CA's in between auto attacks is a huge DPS maximization factor. Bruisers get FD and high avoidance. Warriors get high mit and HP and uber taunts. Crusaders get a mix of both healer / warrior. Other things include death touch, lay on hands, rez, evac. Summoners get pets among rez's, COTH's, heals, stoneskins. Chanters and bards get uber buffs. Now, lets look at predators. Rangers utility is limited, except for maybe their l33t snaring and kiting skills, but something that sets them apart their DPS is that it is ranged. Timing CA's between auto-bows, not auto-melee, finding the "sweet-spot", etc. It's a very tedious form of DPS, but quite different also, thus setting the class apart. Assassins turn. What makes them different? Assassins have good "Non-melee" DPS...higher than many classes, but their "Melee" dps falls way behind. Even if you maximize with t iming your CA's, it will be below that of a good r ogue using his timing correctly.   But there's no real distinguishing of their DPS to a rogue's. Rogue DPS is about positioning, so is ass assins. Rogue DPS is about melee, so is assassins.  Rogue dps is about getting high melee crit, so is  assassins. An assassin is just a rogue with dual  wields and crappy debuffs.  Assassins are just down-graded rogues with no utility. They have nothing that really sets them apart. I agree with you fully in that sense Siclone. I'm not whining about the class, but you've stated a fact. So, maybe the thing that makes assassins different is that they aren't different at all. Other classes are unique, while the one thing that made us unique in KoS has been essentially taken away. Leading the charts is still our goal, but is only achievable in the most perfect of circumstances and in "some" cases. Most classes have auto-attack damage equal a huge percentage of their dps, close to half, while assassins do a lot less. Here's an all-inclusive FTH parse broken down. Ranger 2.4k DPS (860 DPS from auto-bow, 1540 DPS from non-melee(procs, ca's, etc.)) Me 1.9k DPS (450 DPS from auto-melee, 1450 DPS from non-melee) Ranger 1.9k DPS (650 DPS from auto-bow, 1250 from non-melee) My group consisted of like a guardian, dirge, illy, templar, defiler, me... Rangers had dirge, zerker, inquis, themselves, and mystic.. So as you can see, our CA damage which was so sweet during KOS to bring us our name, our factor that set us aside, has been trumped and balanced by the CA damage of other classes with their increases in their "auto-attack" damage. Siclone, if I may be so bold to say, I think this was a threatening factor to our uniqueness as a class, for it wasn't our utility and our fun spells, which other classes hold, it was our DPS; and since our DPS has been matched and balanced, we're just another DPS class to kick mobs in the face with. I think alot of the high-end assassins that have been frustrated with their  class and thus quit or rolled a new class aren't  satisfied with top 3. Heck, I'm not...(my swashy's level 63! woot!)

[Jayad]

The assassin-under-rogue-section thing is just so people new to the game can understand what assassins are like. We're still "predators", like rangers, in that we have no utility to speak of and are purely DPS scouts. The problem of course is that rogues have our DPS and also have some utility - not real nice utility like the true utility classes, but some. Assassins and swashies do DPS in a little different way, in terms of where it comes from, but we're more alike than different. Given the relative dps levels of rogues and assassins, I guess I just don't see the point of the assassin class in general. Util-less rogues? At least rangers are somewhat unique in their ranged scout dps. In the old days, even if things were unbalanced, at least the point was you could have utility or dps, or a mix, but not a great amount of both. Maybe it was never realized, because things have never been balanced quite right. Yeah, I can parse high, but so can a lot of classes. We have very little utility, and for what? You can make the same argument for rangers, or for the sorcerors. Hell, you even have to wonder how zerkers can parse what they do, and they're *tanks*. Nobody would confuse a paladin with a healer, but an illusionist can pump out a lot of dps. If a paladin could tank and do 75% of a healer's job, people would completely freak out, but a zerker can do a hell of a lot of dps while being a [Removed for Content] good tank to boot. A rogue can apply huge debuffs, not to mention their AA abilities, and basically do great dps at our level just about. Maybe they should heal, too. Well, nobody really cares at SOE, so I'll just keep raiding I guess. How it is. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[HellRaiserXX]

<p>Lung Puncture(which by the way debuffs skills more than Intoxication).  Ya, Neurotoxic Coating maxed and Intoxication together does more than lung puncture and Coating may do more by itself, but Coating requires the assassin to be dmged by a melee weapon. Most cases in a raid thats not going to happen.</p><p>I agree that assassins lack uniqueness, but at this point that is going to be very hard to create.  It can't be done through DPS, which is the preferrable way for most, without making things unbalanced again.  I have yet to see any really solid ideas for utility.  Pretty much everything suggested is copying something someone else already has, grp AE immunes, grp invis, etc etc.  Nothing that would make us stand out.</p><p>If you look at a Swashys parse like you did with rangers and assassins there with that FTH parse, you would see that they are pretty much the reverse.  The huge majority of their DPS comes from auto-melee and the smaller part from CAs and other things.  A lot of their really good CAs increase that auto-melee. Do procs and poisons go off on a double attack hit? </p><p>So if you want something unique.  Assassins do the most DPS of any melee class via their non-melee dmg. Rangers do it from a distance we do it up close.  I doubt anyone would really call that defining though.</p>

[Kokus]

<cite>HellRaiserXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Lung Puncture(which by the way debuffs skills more than Intoxication).  Ya, Neurotoxic Coating maxed and Intoxication together does more than lung puncture and Coating may do more by itself, but Coating requires the assassin to be dmged by a melee weapon. Most cases in a raid thats not going to happen.</p><p>I agree that assassins lack uniqueness, but at this point that is going to be very hard to create.  It can't be done through DPS, which is the preferrable way for most, without making things unbalanced again.  I have yet to see any really solid ideas for utility.  Pretty much everything suggested is copying something someone else already has, grp AE immunes, grp invis, etc etc.  Nothing that would make us stand out.</p><p>If you look at a Swashys parse like you did with rangers and assassins there with that FTH parse, you would see that they are pretty much the reverse.  The huge majority of their DPS comes from auto-melee and the smaller part from CAs and other things.  A lot of their really good CAs increase that auto-melee. Do procs and poisons go off on a double attack hit? </p><p>So if you want something unique.  Assassins do the most DPS of any melee class via their non-melee dmg. Rangers do it from a distance we do it up close.  I doubt anyone would really call that defining though.</p></blockquote><p>Assassins in the proper setup can match a swashbuckler auto attack damage.  What they can't match is the result of that.  Swashbucklers using a 1 hander will have more "attack swings" and nearly double the amount of poison procs, and any other procs.  Reason:  Orb of the Wanderer + Hurricane.  The earring can trigger procs.  Reason that through.</p>

[Siclone]

Karel@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Reroll another class and don't polute these forums again?</blockquote> <p>This is a great post.</p><p>Why don't you just say, I don't agree with your point but I am to dumb to explain why so I will just tell you to go away and leave,  and  I lack reading comprehension cause I missed the point of the post </p><p>Because I am no way applying that Assassins suck or I am unhappy.</p><p>The point is, genius, that the dps differences between the dps classes are not significant.  Just look at the parses from the different raids. Any good dps class can top them depending on the encounter.  Since that is the case, and the utility gaps between the classes are wide.  </p><p>So my thought is to have an utility for  Assassin only to make up for this.  </p><p>Look at peoples posts and thoughts when they talk about DPS classes.  They always lump,,, rogue/predator/mage in the same group.  You don't see people talking about DPS as in ..Predator, then roguee and mage.   Cause they realize the DPS is all comparable.  </p><p>I like the true invis I think that be cool to have and make up for the fact we dont have something unique.  But I am sure there are tons of things we could get.</p><p>I don't care if everyone agrees with this, just tossing that thought out there, after all this is a "discussion forum" right.  </p>

[StrummaTune]

I wouldn't say that a swash's melee is greater than their non-melee... For even on multiple mob encounters their melee damage will be less their their non-melee.. I'm just saying that their melee dps and the melee dps of most any other class comes out on top of assassins. For example... MO parse... Necro (2.7k) Swash (2.65k-- 1129 from melee, 1521 from non-melee) Ranger(2.64k-- 1073 from bow, 1566 non-melee) Ranger(2.3k-- 950 from bow, 1360 from non-melee) Assassin(1.95k -- 450 from melee, 1500 from non-melee) Assassins look good in the non-melee department, as equals with Swashs and Preds... but Swashs can do a lot of "non-melee" dps...and it is by no means LESS than their melee; they are just closer together.

[HellRaiserXX]

That is kindof a low parse for an assassin on MO, but I understand what you are saying. Does that assassin have Gdoh?

[Chij]

<p>Revised my "Distraction" idea...  </p><p>Instance Hate wipe with true Invis/stealth... would be like FD, but scout-ish </p><p>combines everybody idea so far... and it wont over power our class either.... come on... Necs get FD... </p>

[Graton]

<cite>Jayad wrote:</cite><blockquote>The assassin-under-rogue-section thing is just so people new to the game can understand what assassins are like. We're still "predators", like rangers, in that we have no utility to speak of and are purely DPS scouts. The problem of course is that rogues have our DPS and also have some utility - not real nice utility like the true utility classes, but some. </blockquote>actually i would argue that brigands have the most desired utility of any class on a raid. when a brigand shows up everyone is happy because raid-wide dps will go way up. a single brigand does more for a raid than a single illusionist or troubadour. i honestly think people have the this idea of utility ranking for classes which is quite far from the truth. everyone says t2 has more utility than t1 and t3 more than t2 , etc. for example i see people say necros have so much utility and wizards don't. i see this in posts everywhere. what is this based on? necros can hand out hearts , buff sta / int and do dmg. wizards can feed power to anyone, have a fantastic proc buff they can put on melee classes , buff str  / int for the whole group , toss out the augmented proc spell ( frigid gift ) and do great dmg. most classes are excited to have a wizard in group but a necro ?? wizards / necros doing simliar dmg really doesn't seem unreasonable at all to tme when you consider that.

[Jayad]

That's true to some extent. There's no "tiers", as SOE has said several times. Wizards & warlocks have some buffs for groups and individuals, but they're nothing you would really plan around. (Maybe their group int/caster skill buffs) Summoners have more utility, but not leaps and bounds more. Necros get FD, rez, heals. Conjurors get stoneskin, COTH, etc. Their best features are their aggro split between their pets and themselves, followed closely by their power objects. The aggro split is a big deal for casters because dealing with hate generation is a primary problem for wizards & warlocks. Still, they're not that far off from sorcerors, so you can make the argument that they should be around the top of dps, as SOE has said they are. Both their power objects and pet recasting takes quite a bit of time on raids, for those advantages. It's different with rogues vs. predators because predators have almost nothing besides dps. Compared to an assassin or ranger, a wizard or warlock is a buffing machine. Rogues also don't really help groups, either - but - rogues get a ton of useful abilities compared to predators that help others via debuffs on the mob or things like aoe avoid. Predators just do straight up dps, period. We suck up buffs from others and produce dps. It seems to be SOE's intent that the pure dps classes and dps+small util classes produce close to the same dps, if not the same. I think this cheapens those of us who play a class only for dps, but that's just the way it is now. I don't think assassins need more dps, I just wonder why it seems kind of crowded where we are, when we have nothing else to offer. (Along with the other classes who are in the same situation as us)

[whytakemine]

<cite>HellRaiserXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you are comparing just assassin and swashy utility/debuffs.  Assassins have probably the highest Defense debuffs of any class in the game, twice what swashies have.  Assassins poison debuffs are massive in comparison.  With Intoxication and Neurotoxic Coating maxed we might be able to debuff offensive skills more as well, not sure how much swashies debuff in that department.  Hate transfer is roughly the same, theirs is better in KoS because of there being much more group encounters, ours is better in EoF because there are much more single encounters. Sure they can also do a lot more that we cant and probably most of our debuffs are going to be made up by other classes, big deal, we weren't meant to be a utility class.</p></blockquote><p> I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, but if you're implying that assassin utility is close to swashie utility because we debuff defence more, I'd have to completely disagree.</p><p>Assassin debuffs:</p><ul><li>Crippling strike: ~42 to defence</li><li>mit & defence debuff (forgot the name): ~30 defence, ~500 mit</li><li>snare + poison debuff: ~2k poison debuff</li></ul><p>Swashie debuffs:</p><ul><li>Double cross: ~30 defence, ~80 wis</li><li>Razor poing: ~55 parry</li><li>Whirl of blades: ~850 mit</li><li>Guile: ~488 mit</li><li>Plunder: ~80 agi</li><li>snare + magic/divine debuff: ~2k magic and divine</li><li>Lung puncture: ~55 to all offensive skills</li><li>dazzling steel: ~35 dps </li><li>gaudy strike: ~145 int</li></ul><p>I'm leaving off AA abilities because I don't know swashie ones very well, although I would guess they out do us there too.  Heck, just Traumatic swipe is arguably better than intoxication and poison combination, depending on the mob you're fighting.</p><p>Their hate xfer is ALWAYS better than ours, given roughly equivalent dps.  Even on single targets.  We transfer 29%, they transfer 27%, but a chunk of our dps comes during concealment which reduces the threat generated by those attacks.  Swashies also generate 5% extra hate from their self haste/dps buff, and probably most importantly of all almost all their attacks have a debuff component so not only are they generating hate from dps but from debuffs as well.</p><p>If you want to include self buffs, swashies blow us completely out of the water.  They get everything we get, and much much more.</p><p>As far as I know, swashie group buffs are as non-existent as assassin ones (well, we get apply poison).</p><p>So I have to admit I'm also feeling a bit of class envy here.  I like my class.  I had a swash, and I like playing an assassin more.  However if I was a raid leader and I had to choose between bringing a swash or bringing an assassin, the swash would win hands down (assuming both players were equally skilled).</p>

[HellRaiserXX]

<p>No not at all.  I was stating only that of the debuffs we have in common ours are better, except for offensive skills from intoxication if you add AAs in. Which was in reference to a post further up asking what we have that they dont.  </p>

[Xevim]

<cite>HellRaiserXX wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is kindof a low parse for an assassin on MO, but I understand what you are saying. Does that assassin have Gdoh? </blockquote>This statement right here is just wrong.  If a class is dependent upon getting a specific weapon  to compete with other classes for dps, then something is fundamentally wrong with the game.  The DR on this weapon is much lower than many other top weapon, but because of the damage spread and delay, it is king.  Assassin should not be measure by if they have a GDoH. And why do you try to paint the pretty picture of the situation.   The dps gap has  closed.  Yes assassins are still good, but other classes with better utility are very close or if not passing us.  Yes those classes are over powered.  Do I still enjoy my assassin, yes.  But I do not try and fool myself about where we are.  We are a top dps (among many now), that offers hate transfer. Other classes offer this and more.  I just hope that SoE change stuff in the future and hope my only way of competing is not to get a stupid dagger that won't drop for me.

[IKilled007]

The DPS gap has closed? CLOSED? Hahahaha. The Necro is THE DPS standard in the game right now. A solid Wiz is second. This is beyond dispute. We have to dance around and get position, hope our Malignant Mark Master II sticks, have poisons trigger, and time our attacks perfectly to have a shot of beating either of those classes, both of which ALSO have utility. And out Assassin AA lines SUCK. But any necro getting outparsed by an assassin on a raid is either slacking or learning his class. No assassin can beat a solid necro on a raid.

[Kaiser Sigma]

Then again, maybe the assassin getting outparsed by a necro zonewide isn't as solid as he / she thinks he / she is or he / she is still learning his / her class. In any case, whine some more for me prz~.

[LoreLady]

Right now, rangers are the highest single target dps in the game, followed by wizards, followed by assassins, then necro's. Atleast this is what I see in parsings.. As far as AE's go, I usually find its - Warlocks, swash, assassin, wizard, ranger. I have parsings outside my own guild of a ranger who maintains about 3k dps zonewide... I havent seen any other class achieve this zonewide.

[HellRaiserXX]

<p>Give a good ranger a really nice bow w/ T8 ammo and they are very hard to compete with.  A well equiped ranger should beat an assassin on group encounters almost everytime, and be able to and be able to compete on single encounters. I notice the ranger winning AE encounters a lot more than the single target ones vs an assassin in my guild. Our ranger just got the Rigid Scale Bow from Wuoshi and he is pretty hard to beat now if not impossible, hit a 6500DPS parse in DT the other night, never seen a ranger get that high and he won the zonewide by almost 400DPS.</p><p>Rangers and assassins need good weapons to be able to parse well, assassins less so than rangers I think because for a ranger to really get up there they have to have T8 ammo. Assassins don't necessarily have to have GDoH to parse high, but in order to parse as high as possible thats the weapon of choice. And really thats the case for a lot of melee classes.  Rogues need a good 1her to really get up there, bards although they can't parse at the top still want the same weapons as assassins to be able to maximize the DPS they do.  Mage DPS isn't dependant on weapons so it is hard to compare there.</p><p>A necro and a wiz are first and second only on those single encounters where they use LB and MB. Other than that they are right there with everyone else. We have a very solid necro and he gets beat by my counterpart assassin all the time. The DPS gap is most definately closed.</p><p>Its obvious by the sheer number of different outcomes various guilds are having that there is no single best DPS class. KoS it was assassins in almost every case, no one can say that any one class is best because coming right after them will be someone else who can prove it otherwise.</p><p>My guild parses on single targets usually go Assassin, ranger (prolly will change since he got that bow), necro, wizard, swash.  On group its usually Warlock, ranger, assassin/necro/swash/wizard. It varies too much to really say for sure.</p><p>Really parses shouldn't be a contest.  I don't think it should matter so much who is doing what DPS. The goal is going to be winning the encounter and getting the loot and I find I prefer many classes parsing high to one class parsing high like in KoS, makes me actually want to try and parse high.  If you are really getting beat solidly all the time than I suggest you first really evaluate yourself to make sure it is not just you sucking. Then take a look at your guilds raid setup to see if maybe it is how the raid is set up. Then look at the type of encounters you are facing. Finally look at your gear in relation to the gear of those above you, mainly your weapons vs the weapons of anyone who is above. Once you've done all that; if you know you are the best player ever, have the perfect group, are fighting the optimal encounters, and have the best gear of everyone and you are still getting beat than I would say you truly have a case against whichever classes are parsing above you. This is, however, impossible to achieve which is why from guild to guild we have such a variation in the types of parses they are getting and since the DPS tiers don't really exist then there is very little basis to say which classes should be parsing the highest. </p><p>EoF corrected most of the balancing issues among the classes, that is pretty apparent.  I am looking forward to seeing what is coming in the next content because I think it will address the utility vs DPS issue and hopefully give us that uniqueness and definition we so obviously crave. </p>

[Executi]

Lets keep on subject. It's assassin utility and uniqueness we're talking about...not parses. And in the MO parse I had above, the assassin did have a GDoH, but the group setup in his raids is usually 3 bards. One in group 1, 2, and 4. He usually sits in group 3 without a bard with just an illy and an inquis. So, not too low of a parse for that. Parsed MO the other night on my assassin at 2.3k...but swashy went well over 3k...

[HellRaiserXX]

ya that makes sense, a dirge is almost a must now to really parse high. 

[Jayad]

Dirge is real nice, but I can do a lot with an illusionist and a troub, esp. with a fury. Even just troub-fury is pretty good if I get agitate. We've just been lacking some dirges in our raids the last few days. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The new bows for rangers look really nice, so where's our next level weapon? Gonna be pretty sad if the GDoH remains our best weapon through the expansion.

[HellRaiserXX]

well theres the Bisected sabre. not sure if you could call it next generation, but its definately a really good weapon.  Its possible that contested Mayong may have a DW and there are raid instances that havent been put in game yet so theres a chance there may be a weapon to replace GdoH somewhere in there.

[Kokus]

Post parses Raina.  Where are you and the other assassin standing dps wise on what fights?  You say assassins are topping the parse on single targets.  Are your assassins parsing over 4k dps on 2 minute + fights?  What fights are you talking about here where your assassins are beating out every other dps class with swashies far down the list.  In comparison, that would mean that your 5th placed classes are all parsing well over 3500 dps on every single target fight.  I've asked before for you to post parses, you've declined, but if you're going to say that assassins are just that much better than the others, I want to see the numbers because it's not adding up.  Maybe the rest of your guild needs to click their buttons?

[HellRaiserXX]

<p>For one Im talking zonewides mostly, I could care less if someone can parse 5k on one fight. Overall the assassins are usually at the top, which means that on most fights the assassins are winning. Also, I have not said assassins are that much better than the others anywhere, ever.  Always have I said that the DPS across classes is comparable and that things are balanced. When I say someone in my guild is parsing #1 it doesnt mean they are beating everyone by 500DPS.  Thats just the ranking.  Like on PHH there were 5 different classes within 50DPS of each other, #1 being an assassin, but only #1 by like 10DPS.  I have never quoted numbers which means our DPS could be parsing 4k+ or 1k+.  Statements on DPS are only the rankings of each and have nothing to do with the actual numbers being put up.   </p><p>My guild raids everything so saying which fights is meaningless because the trend continues wherever we go and I will not post parses because it won't prove anything. All people will say is oh your classes aren't doing what they should be doing, blah blah.  Well my guild isnt your guild and there is absolutely no way you can tell whats going on based from our parses because you dont know our group makeups, gear, or the players.  Just like I cant explain why a swashy can parse 3k in your guilds.  Thats why this issue on DPS is such a big pointless debate because everyone is basing their oppinions from their own guilds parsings and there is absolutely no way to determine what the real situation is because of the level of variability from one guild to another.  I could prove what Im saying from my parses and you could prove what your saying from your parses, but there is no way to determine which is more right and I could just as easily say your assassins aren't doing their job as you could say my swashys and necros aren't doing theirs and neither of us would be right because neither have any idea what is going on in the others guild.  Thats why this is so pointless.  Whether you believe me or not that is what is happening in my guild and I have no reason to prove it to you and refuse to put myself and my guildies in a position where they could be told they suck for no better reason than that someone else thinks they should or should not be doing the DPS they are. </p>

[LoreLady]

Great posts hellraiser. One of the things many people need to keep in mind, is things like the number of brigs and things like that takes into account a guilds raid dps. For instance, one guild I get parsings from has 4 active brigands daily; we have one. The numbers that are put out are alot higher due to constant dispatch.. However, jumping into one of there raids once I was able to out dps there raid by 400 dps quite easilly.. Comparing parses is a great tool when there is consistancy, however.. If your looking for straight high numbers you have to look at the zone, the setup, the player, the guild.. A good example is MMIS, or freethinkers.. It is very easy for any ranger or assassin to parse closer to 3k on the zonewide simply because of the amount of single target mobs there are.. (please note, I did say closer not at.. You WILL see alot of 3k average parsings on trash, but around 2k on named) What did it over the top for me personally, was I just aquired the kilij. And that procs on ranged as well as melee, and it is intended (spoke to a GM before I finished claymore).. The only thing I usually find, is I always get outparsed by assassins in places like lyceum/labs by our assassin, but our ranger who is at the STR/Agil line (STR effects rain of arrows, which is a 4k AE) will take down both of us on the zonewide. So I really think it simply depends on what build you have. One last thing to mention, is there was recently another arrow change.. There was a bug in the system that was messing with hit %ages.. Rangers got yet another boost with our+ hit mods with the ammo, we now have close to 98-99% with the DT ammo, while assassins are still resting around 90% auto attack. While I do agree that the classes are ballanced, there are many variables that go into classes.. What I stated earlier was simply things I was noticing in parses as people progress. While many assassins here may want more utility, or damage in there AA's. The truth of the matter is its not going to happen.. There are other options though, remember they did announce that they made the adornment system so its "possible" to have class specific adornments.. We may see these go through in later days, its one of those wait and see things. For those of you who want more out of your class, take a deep breath look at all the data you are presented with, look at spell charts/damage charts as well as utility.. Then try and separate yourself from your class, and then ask yourself why things are the way they are; as well as what can you do to improve yourself? Anyone who feels they want more.. I strongly suggest you PM hellraiser and ask what kinds of things you can do to increase your dps, he seems to have a good head on his shoulders and has my respect on these fourms.  Dont think you know it all when it comes to your own class, there is always something to learn.

[HellRaiserXX]

<p>I would also recommend Graton if you want to know the mechanics behind how we do dmg and stuff, he is the expert in that department, Im still trying to get a solid grasp on crit ratios, numbers just aren't my thing lol. Kokusho knows her [Removed for Content] too and their are quite a few others who dont post much on the boards, but float around in assassin channel that will be very helpful.</p><p>Theres a lot of content for EoF that has yet to be put in and I wager we may get some of the things we want in roundabout ways rather than solid updates to our AAs. There is nothing that can be done/will be done in the current conditions and you all have to come to grips with that at some point.</p><p>I honestly wouldn't mind posting parses if I thought it might do some good, but it really wouldn't and it would probably just lead to more trash talking between people and thats just pointless. We have enough of that already going on as it is.  </p>