Monk Raid DPS

[Zee Brat]

I have a quick question for you all. My friend, who is a, now 62 monk has been bragging to me about how much DPS he can do. Which is all well and good, everyone knows that brawlers are the heavy DPS fighters. He tells me about how he is constantly dealing higher damage than most of the DPS classes out there. And that monks tend to out dps other dps classes zonewide in raids. I personally don't believe him. But he tells me I don't know what I'm talking about because I haven't ever raided just yet. My question is this. Can a monk specced for DPS out damage an equally equipped DPS class on a raid? Thanks in advance.

[SouthernAvenger]

In.... short no

[Cirth_Beer]

tell him to stop alcohol <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Selioth]

what really pisses me off is when a fury is out parsing me by 400-500 consistantly and i do an avg of 800dps on most raids and i see templars spell spec doing 800-900dps as well [Removed for Content] is up with the really low brawler dps now, its just really messed up when healers are out dpsing me and scouts can tank better what use are brawlers now really? a extra 50% heal on the tank just incase? a group FD that fails 9 tims out of 10? P.S. and combonation is really [Removed for Content] me off i hate that AA but it is a free extra 1500dmg

[Junaru]

Zee Brat wrote: <blockquote>I have a quick question for you all. My friend, who is a, now 62 monk has been bragging to me about how much DPS he can do. Which is all well and good, everyone knows that brawlers are the heavy DPS fighters. He tells me about how he is constantly dealing higher damage than most of the DPS classes out there. And that monks tend to out dps other dps classes zonewide in raids. I personally don't believe him. But he tells me I don't know what I'm talking about because I haven't ever raided just yet. My question is this. Can a monk specced for DPS out damage an equally equipped DPS class on a raid? Thanks in advance.</blockquote>Well yes and no.. Zone wide I tend to out parse most but I have a feeling that is due to DPS classes holding back on their high damage hits to make sure they have them for any named mobs. Me on the other hand I go all out on every fight because my reuse timers are to short. The last 3 raids I have been on, I parsed in the top 5 zone wide and around 7th to 10th for the named. Selioth wrote: <blockquote>what really pisses me off is when a fury is out parsing me by 400-500 consistantly and i do an avg of 800dps on most raids and i see templars spell spec doing 800-900dps as well [I cannot control my vocabulary] is up with the really low brawler dps now, its just really messed up when healers are out dpsing me and scouts can tank better what use are brawlers now really? a extra 50% heal on the tank just incase? a group FD that fails 9 tims out of 10? P.S. and combonation is really [Removed for Content] me off i hate that AA but it is a free extra 1500dmg </blockquote>I have to disagree. At L65 I average 800dps on most raids. I can't see how a L70 is hitting the same DPS. WHile sure the zones you raid are different then mine I still mostly raid mobs that range from blue to orange to me and most being yellow. I'll admit I have given up the idea of being a raid tank and specced for max DPS. Also I sit at 500STR self buffed and only expect that to get higher with levels/gear/skills. Maybe you are set up for tanking I don't know but 800DPS seems way low to me for an L70 Monk.

[Selioth]

look at my gear im fairly well geared but still furys in all leg gear are beating me, and yes i avg 800dpg granted im never in group with a class that can help my dps but still i can do 700 just auto atking, my CAs are all adpt3 or master (i was a bruiser with all masters up till 2 months ago) its just sad a healer can out dps a brawler and a scout can tank better (and yes furys can out dps we have a fury in guild that heals and does 1700dps when in the same fight the best monk on raid only does 1200 and i do about 1100, im full dps spec 448 sta wis int

[shaolen]

It shouldnt happen too often, but it can for a couple of reasons.   The monk might be in the perfect group for him to maximize DPS, the right group buffs can add up to 400-500 DPS easy.  Or the other true DPS classes are not playing up to thier full potential.  In a well balanced raid we should be in the top 5 or 6 maybe, not the top 1 or 2. 

[TheHidden]

<p>Recently i had an opertunity to test my DPS both solo and duoing with a troubador. </p><p>I'm Level 70 with mostly treasured and legendary items off the broker i self buff 443 str, and 300ish in agi and sta. hitpoints sit around 6700 I also have masters for 6 of my attacks. the others are a bit meh. but i will get em someday.</p><p>The following was tested on a 63tripple up heroic. after learning the right order of skills to use i could could get 620ish DPS max while solo. using all my skills includeing the Sta Debugg ranged attack we have (from aa) (only have 71 aa so theres still a lil more dps to come.) Keep in mind this is with mastercrafted fistwraps. </p><p>i reached 790 tops duoing with the troub (the 40% recast timer thing was the main reason) tested using only his group buffs and the recast timer. </p><p>So your friend is... quite honestly full of it. unless the people he groups with really suck.  or if hes like mentoring down lol. So with all fabled gear and the 2x 10% dps adornments. and viral bindings on some 57DR+ weapons i should be hitting 520+ self buffed str. another 15% haste, and some other things. 800-900 dps with all masters shoudl be possible solo. With the right group setup in raid. (Dirge/troub zerker, mystic among others.) ive heard 1600 dps is not impossible for a monk, (however. i hear certain casters even swashies can in right grooups hit 2200 plus.)</p><p>when it comes to raiding. your raid leader needs to know how to set the groups up. raiding is all about group setups. if you dont do that right. your really diminishin yoru chances.</p><p>I hope this gives you some extra info to think about <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>  </p>

[Goozman]

<p>I just raided with my monk alt (alt #5) for the first time yesterday in a 3 group labs raid, and I guess I was pretty impressed with my dps. F*ups aside, I was about 1100-1300 dps on level 68 with crappy weapons (I used Grizzfazzle staff mostly).</p><p>By the end of the raid, I had my fair share of DPS buffs (I think at one point I was at 270haste/215dps lol) I think in 2 more levels, with much better weapons, It'll be pretty tight.</p>

[PrimusPilus]

<p>For information, using two fabled twin calamities, at about 100% haste, and with no special dps buffs or too much in the way of proccs, using the right technique I have now found I can get an average of about 1000 dps, going from maybe 850 to 1150. This is only slightly higher than solo, and this represents slightly more than what one might get if one could be in a one monk group as a 4th group in what would essentially be a 3 group raid +1. DPS classes should generally be able to do a bit more with no buffs, perhaps by 1-200. With buffs the dps types seem to go to 1300 and up. Basically without relying on others buffs you can come in as tier two dps, just behind the scouts and mages (usually just below the lower dpsing scouts, or sometimes even with them). For me this is with dps from the int and Sta lines, and none from the wisdom line, so I could get a bit more if I went down wiz, but I spent it on avoidences and such.</p><p>It is possible for a monk to do quite a bit more with the right group setup and buffs/proccs, some have averaged 1200+ going up to 1600+ on named. This is with special techniques, AA setups, buffs, and often special weapons however, things like a maxed out 125% haste, big dps buffs, good procs (gear and cast), and the best weapons, such as a varsakin claw club, or other specially matched fabled weapons. It should be noted that with the same quality of buffage the dps types should still be slightly ahead, perhaps by that same 1-200.</p><p>BTW, the techique (besides having matched speed fabled weapons) is to use /weaponstats to see what your melee weapon delay is. As long as it is 1.0 or less, you can spam one Combat Art (CA) after another, and the casting time+refresh time of the CAs will be about 1 second (0.5+0.5), and so one autoattack will fit in between each CA. By making sure you cast each CA so there is no delay between them (the next one cued to go before the first one is finished) you will do max damage for as long as the CAs last, and then no CAs will interrupt your autoattacks while the CAs refresh, then you can spam them again one after the other again, repeat as nesissary. If you have slower weapons, such as two 2.5 speed weapons, at 100% haste you would get 1.25 speed, spamming CAs would prevent autoattacks since the autoattack needs 1.25 sec to go off and you are giving it only 1 sec. In that case, add a brief hesitation betweens CAs, trying for say 0.3-0.5 seconds between (the usualy technique with Fists of bashing + Hardshell Baton or equivilent).</p><p>Another techique is the Varsakin Claw club (other slower weapons may also work) method, max out your chance to crit (AAs, gear, adornments, buffs, and potions), get lots of haste and dps buffs, and use crane Flock whenever possible. You might be able to spam two CAs, pause to allow atoattack, then spam another two, especially if you can get over say 115% haste, using the claw club, with faster weapons probably only 1 CA. Claw Clubs are kinda rare though since the zone they drop in doesn't have much else in the way of good gear and so isn't gone in a lot, you also have to wade through a lot of trash mobs, some only epicx2 or even heroic.</p><p>So basically it is possible to get quite good dps as a monk, but unless they are unskilled or the raid is unskilled or poorly equipped as of yet, the dps classes will still do a bit more to noticably more. You can get close enough that you are in the bottom tier of dps types and are essentially useful as dps.</p>

[Regpyr]

<p>Note: I have just about the nicest gear one could ask for from a relatively casual raider, I'm probably in the top ten in terms of gear of monks on my server (nektulos).</p><p>I am top five in the parse consistently in most zones. My guild can easily clear all the raid zones in KoS, (and we've killed a few contested too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. There are quite a few very good players/raiders in my guild, especially the pure DPS classes. I have better gear than the average raider in my guild due to the obvious reason, monk gear is basically free. I am all out DPS specced, at the moment, and it'll stay that way. The OP's question, basically: Do monks out-DPS conjys, necros, wizzys, warlocks, assasins, etc... when equally geared. Answer: No. However it is rare for a mage or scout to be geared like a monk, because they have to compete with all the other such classes on the raid for gear. In the end what matters is you have higher DPS, not how you achieve that DPS, if it is because you have better gear and a very refined strategy in order to compete with the pure DPS, well... more power to you. </p><p>Since about a month after EoF (about when people were starting to get 100 AA) my DPS dropped down, necros and wizzys are passing me up because of life-burn and mana-burn. As was said earlier, our AAs in general suck, I guess SOE is just trying to get rid of our class because it takes so much effort to give us some sort of niche. Many people on here are probably in more hard-core guilds, so most of the people they raid with are fabled out, many of my fellow raiders are as well, just not to the extent I am, with a few exceptions <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> . And some of the people on here have very strange facts, the person who talked about duoing a troub confused me somewhat, I tested my DPS soloing, just to get an idea of different weapons, and I was over 1000 easily... so I dunno what that's all about. And before anyone says anything about the skill of my guildies just keep it to yourself, it is not a matter of skill, not in my case at least. And I've never seen a healer out-DPS me in a raid, it happens sometimes in groups when all my CA's are down and the fury is the back-up healer. TBH the healer shouldn't be doing DPS except to help bring down trash or easy nameds, they pull enough aggro just healing.</p><p>O ya, BTW with any class the way a mob cons to you is very important... its much harder to hit a yellow con mob than a white one, resultingly, those of you that are 65 or whatever are going to have varying results and significantly lower DPS than you will at level 70, our guild doesn't allow people who aren't level 70 to raid t7 content. Also it seems to me a common misconception that scouts tank better than monks, the group leader may have the scout tank just because he thinks that, but I'll bet you that if you switch back and forth you will find you are a better tank, especially if you use spells like the spell damage shield, heal, and tsunami liberally. Scouts do have higher mit tho <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .</p>

[Deathspell]

<cite>TheHidden wrote:</cite><blockquote>when it comes to raiding. your raid leader needs to know how to set the groups up. raiding is all about group setups. if you dont do that right. your really diminishin yoru chances.         </blockquote> Many times I've been amazed how much dps some "non-dps" classes like a fully fabled Guardian can dish out.

[Harpax]

<p>Our raiding force hit labs last night for some silly fun since we were missing a couple of key people for our normal raid target.  Here is the zonewide parse.  I think we finished the zone last night in 2hrs or so.  The Bruiser and I were in the same group and parsed roughly the same damage for the entire raid.</p><p>DPS has as much to do with group makeup, equipment, targets, and the player themselves as it does with the class.  Some classes will naturally be higher DPS then others, but as you can see from the list below, some players just play better then others or have better equipment then others.</p><p>Allies: (55:20) 40075379 | 12070.90 Swash 4833065 | 1456 | Plunder-3536  Ranger 4506336 | 1357 | Sniper Shot-10638  Wizard 3997906 | 1204 | Manaburn-57174  Wizard 3639470 | 1096 | Ball of Lava-36809  Wizard 3228500 | 972 | Fusion-28188  Necro 2833786 | 854 | Lifeburn-6590  Monk (ME) 2655419 | 800 | Forgehammer-5863  Bruiser 2583330 | 778 | Rallos' Devastation-7613 Brig 2389339 | 720 | Ruinous Rake-2994  Guardian (MT) 1349454 | 406 | Flay-2646 Troub 1249169 | 376 | Sinister Strike-3681  Swash 1235698 | 372 | Sinister Strike-4352 SK 1223620 | 369 | Pestilent Touch-8346 Paly 901393 | 272 | Refusal of Conviction-2495 Dirge 888699 | 268 | Luda's Nefarious Wail-2591 Paly 640951 | 193 | slash-2432 Fury 481604 | 145 | Thunderbolt-5481 Inquis 451259 | 136 | Master's Smite-0/3059 Templar 340019 | 102 | Holy Strike-2052 Inquis 313304 | 94 | Heretic's Flames-1647 Fury 158321 | 48 | Thunderbolt-3633 Coercer 89481 | 27 | Convulsions-1844 Templar 64437 | 19 | Holy Strike-1430 Shammy 10070 | 3 | Divine Light-953 Templar 5451 | 2 | Holy Strike-1353 </p>

[Zee Brat]

Harpax wrote: <blockquote><p>Monk (ME) 2655419 | 800 | Forgehammer-5863  Bruiser 2583330 | 778 | Rallos' Devastation-7613 <b>Brig 2389339 | 720 | Ruinous Rake-2994</b>  </p></blockquote> Awwwww, poor Brig. Well atleast (s)he brought the debuffs lol.

[Selioth]

<cite>PrimusPilus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For information, using two fabled twin calamities, at about 100% haste, and with no special dps buffs or too much in the way of proccs, using the right technique I have now found I can get an average of about 1000 dps, going from maybe 850 to 1150. This is only slightly higher than solo, and this represents slightly more than what one might get if one could be in a one monk group as a 4th group in what would essentially be a 3 group raid +1. DPS classes should generally be able to do a bit more with no buffs, perhaps by 1-200. With buffs the dps types seem to go to 1300 and up. Basically without relying on others buffs you can come in as tier two dps, just behind the scouts and mages (usually just below the lower dpsing scouts, or sometimes even with them). For me this is with dps from the int and Sta lines, and none from the wisdom line, so I could get a bit more if I went down wiz, but I spent it on avoidences and such.</p><p>It is possible for a monk to do quite a bit more with the right group setup and buffs/proccs, some have averaged 1200+ going up to 1600+ on named. This is with special techniques, AA setups, buffs, and often special weapons however, things like a maxed out 125% haste, big dps buffs, good procs (gear and cast), and the best weapons, such as a varsakin claw club, or other specially matched fabled weapons. It should be noted that with the same quality of buffage the dps types should still be slightly ahead, perhaps by that same 1-200.</p><p>BTW, the techique (besides having matched speed fabled weapons) is to use /weaponstats to see what your melee weapon delay is. As long as it is 1.0 or less, you can spam one Combat Art (CA) after another, and the casting time+refresh time of the CAs will be about 1 second (0.5+0.5), and so one autoattack will fit in between each CA. By making sure you cast each CA so there is no delay between them (the next one cued to go before the first one is finished) you will do max damage for as long as the CAs last, and then no CAs will interrupt your autoattacks while the CAs refresh, then you can spam them again one after the other again, repeat as nesissary. If you have slower weapons, such as two 2.5 speed weapons, at 100% haste you would get 1.25 speed, spamming CAs would prevent autoattacks since the autoattack needs 1.25 sec to go off and you are giving it only 1 sec. In that case, add a brief hesitation betweens CAs, trying for say 0.3-0.5 seconds between (the usualy technique with Fists of bashing + Hardshell Baton or equivilent).</p><p>Another techique is the Varsakin Claw club (other slower weapons may also work) method, max out your chance to crit (AAs, gear, adornments, buffs, and potions), get lots of haste and dps buffs, and use crane Flock whenever possible. You might be able to spam two CAs, pause to allow atoattack, then spam another two, especially if you can get over say 115% haste, using the claw club, with faster weapons probably only 1 CA. Claw Clubs are kinda rare though since the zone they drop in doesn't have much else in the way of good gear and so isn't gone in a lot, you also have to wade through a lot of trash mobs, some only epicx2 or even heroic.</p><p>So basically it is possible to get quite good dps as a monk, but unless they are unskilled or the raid is unskilled or poorly equipped as of yet, the dps classes will still do a bit more to noticably more. You can get close enough that you are in the bottom tier of dps types and are essentially useful as dps.</p></blockquote>i have the dmg proc calamitie and bonetooth skuwer(sp) and 112% haste and 10dps (cant aford 2 +10s right now) and avg about 800 autoatk dps on raid mobs, im also AAspeced 448sta int and wis, i have 90% fabled gear and some leg backups i just cant seem to get above 1100 consistantly, tru im NEVER in group with a dirge or troub but still

[artophwar]

<cite>Selioth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PrimusPilus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For information, using two fabled twin calamities, at about 100% haste, and with no special dps buffs or too much in the way of proccs, using the right technique I have now found I can get an average of about 1000 dps, going from maybe 850 to 1150. This is only slightly higher than solo, and this represents slightly more than what one might get if one could be in a one monk group as a 4th group in what would essentially be a 3 group raid +1. DPS classes should generally be able to do a bit more with no buffs, perhaps by 1-200. With buffs the dps types seem to go to 1300 and up. Basically without relying on others buffs you can come in as tier two dps, just behind the scouts and mages (usually just below the lower dpsing scouts, or sometimes even with them). For me this is with dps from the int and Sta lines, and none from the wisdom line, so I could get a bit more if I went down wiz, but I spent it on avoidences and such.</p><p>It is possible for a monk to do quite a bit more with the right group setup and buffs/proccs, some have averaged 1200+ going up to 1600+ on named. This is with special techniques, AA setups, buffs, and often special weapons however, things like a maxed out 125% haste, big dps buffs, good procs (gear and cast), and the best weapons, such as a varsakin claw club, or other specially matched fabled weapons. It should be noted that with the same quality of buffage the dps types should still be slightly ahead, perhaps by that same 1-200.</p><p>BTW, the techique (besides having matched speed fabled weapons) is to use /weaponstats to see what your melee weapon delay is. As long as it is 1.0 or less, you can spam one Combat Art (CA) after another, and the casting time+refresh time of the CAs will be about 1 second (0.5+0.5), and so one autoattack will fit in between each CA. By making sure you cast each CA so there is no delay between them (the next one cued to go before the first one is finished) you will do max damage for as long as the CAs last, and then no CAs will interrupt your autoattacks while the CAs refresh, then you can spam them again one after the other again, repeat as nesissary. If you have slower weapons, such as two 2.5 speed weapons, at 100% haste you would get 1.25 speed, spamming CAs would prevent autoattacks since the autoattack needs 1.25 sec to go off and you are giving it only 1 sec. In that case, add a brief hesitation betweens CAs, trying for say 0.3-0.5 seconds between (the usualy technique with Fists of bashing + Hardshell Baton or equivilent).</p><p>Another techique is the Varsakin Claw club (other slower weapons may also work) method, max out your chance to crit (AAs, gear, adornments, buffs, and potions), get lots of haste and dps buffs, and use crane Flock whenever possible. You might be able to spam two CAs, pause to allow atoattack, then spam another two, especially if you can get over say 115% haste, using the claw club, with faster weapons probably only 1 CA. Claw Clubs are kinda rare though since the zone they drop in doesn't have much else in the way of good gear and so isn't gone in a lot, you also have to wade through a lot of trash mobs, some only epicx2 or even heroic.</p><p>So basically it is possible to get quite good dps as a monk, but unless they are unskilled or the raid is unskilled or poorly equipped as of yet, the dps classes will still do a bit more to noticably more. You can get close enough that you are in the bottom tier of dps types and are essentially useful as dps.</p></blockquote>i have the dmg proc calamitie and bonetooth skuwer(sp) and 112% haste and 10dps (cant aford 2 +10s right now) and avg about 800 autoatk dps on raid mobs, im also AAspeced 448sta int and wis, i have 90% fabled gear and some leg backups i just cant seem to get above 1100 consistantly, tru im NEVER in group with a dirge or troub but still </blockquote> I have no problem parsing 1100 consistantly even without a dirge or troub. -.-

[Harpax]

Zee Brat wrote: <blockquote>Harpax wrote: <blockquote><p>Monk (ME) 2655419 | 800 | Forgehammer-5863  Bruiser 2583330 | 778 | Rallos' Devastation-7613 <b>Brig 2389339 | 720 | Ruinous Rake-2994</b>  </p></blockquote> Awwwww, poor Brig. Well atleast (s)he brought the debuffs lol.</blockquote> She was going LD alot during the course of the night lol

[Hydor]

<p>Ok, I have a suggestion.</p><p>All you brawlers that say you parse 1100 or more raidwide tell the rest how you do it.</p><p>Personally I wouldn't believe it even if I saw the parse. However if it is doable I would like to know HOW you do that. Oh, and in what zone do you parse that high?</p>

[artophwar]

<p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=348811#top" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...c_id=348811#top</a></p><p>read the threads in this post</p>

[Hydor]

<p>Tbh, that's one of many posts I ve read that actually triggered my response in this thread. Still it doesn't explain anything. I ve parsed over 1100 myself in single fights. I am NOT DPS specced so hitting for 1600 IN A SINGLE FIGHT when DPS specced and in the perfect group setup and buffed accordingly doesn't sound that weird. But if we are talking raidwide that's a different thing.</p><p>Letting autoattack land between CAs sounds like a joke. Say you can time it perfectly and lose 0 damage from autoattack. This means that you would let autoattack land about 11 times among CA's while if you just hit buttons one after another you would lose some of those. How much would losing even all 11 autoattacks would cost you? I have tested this "delay trick" among CA's and it doesn't seems to do anything signifficant.</p><p>So I just don't believe anyone playing a monk can parse that high, or if someone can there is a trick (s)he is not telling.</p>

[Anjin]

It helps a lot having (a) slow weapon(s).  You are less likely to delay an autoattack though casting a CA with a slow weapon.  Also, there is a greater gap between AA's (due to delay) to spam 2 or maybe 3 between AA hits.  I use a slow 2H weapon and will spam a couple of CA's between my weapon hit - with a high DMG slow weapon it's easy to see when it's hit because it's going to be a BIG orange number above the mob (even bigger with crit <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).  That tells me I have approx 1.4 secs to spam 2 CA's.

[megaira13]

<i>"</i><i>He tells me about how he is constantly dealing higher damage than most of the DPS classes out there. And that monks tend to out dps other dps classes zonewide in raids. I personally don't believe him. But <b><span style="color: #ff0000">he tells me I don't know what I'm talking about because I haven't ever raided just yet</span></b>."</i> Emphasis mine. At this point, we all know your friend is a blustery little BS artist who likes to rub your nose in your "non supercool raider" status.  /thumbsup On the bright side, you won't have to shop around for anyone to dish out kicks to your self-esteem, if you like that sort of thing.  On the downside, if you don't, people like this are a real pain to scrape off.  They tend to cling to their victims like rubbery little leeches. My suggestion - monk dps aside for the moment - is to treat him like the leech he is and take everything he says with a liberal serving of salt.  Generally these people pride themselves on knowing "stuff" and lording it over their "friends" (read: victims). It has little to nothing to do with actual DPS and whether or not he's telling the truth - the truth is irrelevant to these types - as long as you don't know the whole story, they'll twist it and blow it out of proportion to suit their purpose - which is: being ever so much cooler than you, you lucky guy.   I would say: backpedal as quickly as possible and put some distance between you and Liu Kang.   If you're not partial to that, you could demand zonewide parses on at least 3 raids from him, and say you'll believe it when you see it.  But I suspect you'll be met with more bluster and the possibility he'll send you altered numbers.  <b>His claim:</b> Monk DPS aside, again... this is a lvl 62 talking.  Is he raiding with other lvl 62s? People lower level? Higher level?  What are they raiding? T7? T6?  T6 with lower level raiders, sure, he'll out dps many dps classes.  Especially if they're busy debuffing and he's got dirge/coercer/fury love going on. T6 with other lvl 62's, sure, he'll out dps them from time to time, but likely not consistantly, and not every raid.  It depends on his group makeup, what the other DPS are busy doing, etc.  If he IS consistantly out dps'ing a "DPS class" they're either napping, being cautious of stealing agro, taking on a more "utility" role, or still learning how to play their toons. If he's talking T7 = not a chance he's telling you the truth, especially if they're 70.  He will barely be able to hit in the first place until the mob is massively debuffed and honestly, I don't know how the heck a 62 could stay alive long enough in a T7 zone to hit the broad side of a barn in the first place - maybe in Labs or ToS?  If he's spouting Deathtoll or some such, that will be flat out BS all together (Gazer DoT + lvl 62 = *vapor*). In the low 60s, I was specced for STR/INT and no weapons, had my STR up as high as I could get it - I was about as squishy as a mage, but did very well <i>*for the level*</i> with dps.   This may be him.  But then for me, this was pre-EoF, also - I'm not sure it'd be the same, now. However, later, post EoF, when I picked up the calamities and respecced for more utility (altruism), my dps dropped pretty badly.  Now, with adornments, more masters, better gear, etc, it has picked back up very nicely & will continue to do so - but compared to similarily geared, bloodthirsty swashies, assassins (i.e. can go darned near all out if their hate xfer is on the mt), etc?  Pfffft.   Monks can do excellent DPS, no doubt about it - IMO, it depends highly on what role you're taking on in the raid and how you're specced/adorned out, how you play, etc.  If I'm playing a utility role and going the route of interceding like crazy, I'm in defensive stance, using tsunami/OC a ton and not doing as much damage as usual - my job at that point is the gopher/goto girl and not trying to pound faces into the floor.  If I'm in offense and/or have a coercer/dirge/Fury in my group, my DPS jumps tremendously (I can lay it on a bit heavier now, too, with the deagro AA - so it'll go up further).   It will always vary per raid, and likely for me I'll never have the same numbers 2x.  Monk's will get called on to pull, MA, tank, and do half a dozen other odd utility jobs in raids that can hose zonewide DPS, so their numbers will not likely always be consistant. The overall point here is not really Monk DPS at all - but that you have a weenie for a friend. The goal for anyone, really, should not (IMO) be getting the highest DPS possible, but learning and knowing your toon's capabilities as thoroughly as possible - knowing how to maximize your DPS <i>is</i> important, but it is equally intelligent to know how to play your class in a way that benefits the entire raid - and sometimes "highest DPS" is not it.  I do a really lousy job of rezzing the dead if I'm dead already.   I don't do a great job pulling if all I care about is how much damage I get on the mob, instead of getting the mob to the tank quickly.   I don't do anyone a favor if I'm a know it all who, while proud of my DPS, I panic at the drop of a hat and FD my group in error. Don't let someone intimidate you or fill your head with nonsense that they know more than you - maybe they do, about some things, but the people who are really worth listening to and learning from, will not treat you this way, and will help coach you and teach you what matters.  They won't patronize or condescend to you - in face, if they're wise, they'll realize they can learn new things from players who are "newer" at a class than they are.   Often, someone new to the class isn't stuck in perceptual rut & therefore have a tendancy to try things "old timers" may not think of trying.    Best route, if you're not going to distance yourself from the person, is to let your eyes glaze over, say "lol" a lot, nod, smile and let it all swirl in one ear and out the other.  Nothing they have to say is really worth listening to, anyway. There's<a href="http://benfolds.bluni.com/display.php?songid=212" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> a song </a>I think that sums up the thoughts on the other guy. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Play your toon, make yourself a monk if you haven't - they're fun!  Go join some raids, learn about raiding - watch their parses yourself - but do it in your own time, on your own terms, and not because some [Removed for Content] chest thumps at you. FWIW, I had some guy tell me, once, that monks were not tanks and could not tank, tyvm, because they don't come with taunts.   <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Nerill]

On our raids <u><i><b>in the right group</b></i></u> I can hit 1.2 - 1.4 K DPS. The "right" group for me includes buffs from a Zerker, Inquisitor and Dirge / Troubie. If I am <u>not</u> in an optimal group I run about 800 - 1K DPS. Our guild's "DPS" classes ( Swashy, Necro [with lifeburn ], Wizards, etc. ) parse out about 1.6K to well over 2K DPS and in some fights some people are able to top 3K ... but that is only on certain fights. Do I outparse "DPS" classes on some fights .... sure. But if players play their class 100% every fight and not ninja /afk in the middle of a fight, or click spell, look over at TV, click another spell, look over at TV, etc. then no .... I will not outparse the "DPS" classes. Hope that answers your question. Banzai Lv. 70 Monk Unrest

[Deathspell]

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Do I outparse "DPS" classes on some fights .... sure. But if players play their class 100% every fight and not ninja /afk in the middle of a fight, or click spell, look over at TV, click another spell, look over at TV, etc. then no .... I will not outparse the "DPS" classes.    </blockquote> I think it's pretty silly to say you can outparse DPS classes when they are "ninja /afk" or "watching TV"... it's irrelevant.

[Selioth]

<cite>Deathspell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Do I outparse "DPS" classes on some fights .... sure. But if players play their class 100% every fight and not ninja /afk in the middle of a fight, or click spell, look over at TV, click another spell, look over at TV, etc. then no .... I will not outparse the "DPS" classes.    </blockquote> I think it's pretty silly to say you can outparse DPS classes when they are "ninja /afk" or "watching TV"... it's irrelevant. </blockquote>I think its pretty silly you trying to make fun of him for pointing out he can do more dmg then an afk person which is true and relavent

[Deathspell]

<cite>Selioth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deathspell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Do I outparse "DPS" classes on some fights .... sure. But if players play their class 100% every fight and not ninja /afk in the middle of a fight, or click spell, look over at TV, click another spell, look over at TV, etc. then no .... I will not outparse the "DPS" classes.    </blockquote> I think it's pretty silly to say you can outparse DPS classes when they are "ninja /afk" or "watching TV"... it's irrelevant. </blockquote>I think its pretty silly you trying to make fun of him for pointing out he can do more dmg then an afk person which is true and relavent </blockquote> I'm not making fun of him at all, I'm just saying that it's a wrong comparison or statement. Saying you can outparse DPS classes when they are /afk or watching TV is totally irrelevant. You have to compare the classes when they are both going for it (and preferably being in the same group). Everybody can outparse a DPS class that's /afk.

[Nerill]

"not ninja /afk <b>in the middle of a fight</b>, or click spell, look over at TV, click another spell, look over at TV, etc." My point is that people brag about doing more DPS than "DPS" classes but fail to realize that if a Wizard is parsing 1.1K then they are only half-a**ed playing their class. My apologies for offending anyone by pointing this out.

[Fleaba]

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>On our raids <u><i><b>in the right group</b></i></u> I can hit 1.2 - 1.4 K DPS. The "right" group for me includes buffs from a Zerker, Inquisitor and Dirge / Troubie. If I am <u>not</u> in an optimal group I run about 800 - 1K DPS. Our guild's "DPS" classes ( Swashy, Necro [with lifeburn ], Wizards, etc. ) parse out about 1.6K to well over 2K DPS and in some fights some people are able to top 3K ... but that is only on certain fights. Do I outparse "DPS" classes on some fights .... sure. But if players play their class 100% every fight and not ninja /afk in the middle of a fight, or click spell, look over at TV, click another spell, look over at TV, etc. then no .... I will not outparse the "DPS" classes. Hope that answers your question. Banzai Lv. 70 Monk Unrest </blockquote><span style="font-size: x-small">That is a very fair and pretty accurate set of numbers there. I see about the same on average. Our swashy is pretty good so he'll average 2k and will do a lot of 2.4k parses in multiple mob encounters. </span>

[PantherXX]

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>On our raids <u><i><b>in the right group</b></i></u> I can hit 1.2 - 1.4 K DPS. The "right" group for me includes buffs from a Zerker, Inquisitor and Dirge / Troubie. If I am <u>not</u> in an optimal group I run about 800 - 1K DPS. Our guild's "DPS" classes ( Swashy, Necro [with lifeburn ], Wizards, etc. ) parse out about 1.6K to well over 2K DPS and in some fights some people are able to top 3K ... but that is only on certain fights. Do I outparse "DPS" classes on some fights .... sure. But if players play their class 100% every fight and not ninja /afk in the middle of a fight, or click spell, look over at TV, click another spell, look over at TV, etc. then no .... I will not outparse the "DPS" classes. Hope that answers your question. Banzai Lv. 70 Monk Unrest </blockquote> QFE ... I agree these numbers look about right.  There are always comments around about comparing parses, but these are reasonable averages.  Perhaps the biggest frustration to me has been that my DPS seems to have faltered slightly while at the same time everyone else's has skyrocketed ... i.e. their AA's have been much more effective, at least on the DPS front.

[Waung]

MAN i would love that ideal group, throw me a coercer and i'd feel like a god.  don't think i've ever been allowed to group with a dirge or troub on a raid, and hardly ever a combination of classes that buff my dps.  but yeah those numbers do look pretty good, i can top at about 1800 with an almost ideal group, no clue what the ideal would do for me, and doubt i ever will.  once soe actually creates that fabled eof fighter 2hander i might could do better <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rrawl]

<p>I'm going to agree with a lot of the other statements here.</p><p>1. If you are out dps'ing true dps classes as a monk, you either have better, gear, skills, group makeup, or attention span then they do. It's entirely possible for a monk to get zonewide parse of 1k to even around 1.3k with a a really well equipped and played monk in a good group makeup, but your rogues, predators, summoners, and sorcerors are going to do better then that with similar circumstances.</p><p>2. Your friend is a braggart and weenie, and his statements are probably not even true. He may be out parsing some certain fights, especially if the dps classes on his raids are slacking, but no matter if that's the case it's a reflection of those individuals, not the comparison of the classes.</p><p>3. Our EOF AA's make me sad in the pants and make for a much bigger gap between us and true dps'ers when brought into account.</p><p>And just on a related note... I see a lot of people focusing on DPS buffs to up their damage, which is good and should be done, but don't forget your STRENGTH too, this plays a huge role in your DPS. I self buff my haste to 124 and DPS to 20, but with my strength buffed up to say around 1000, I can still usually cap 1k dps even without any additional DPS or haste buffs from my groupmates. Zerkers make a great groupmate since they can offer us both STR buffs and a proc for more haste and dps.</p>

[Fleaba]

<cite>Rrawl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm going to agree with a lot of the other statements here.</p><p>1. If you are out dps'ing true dps classes as a monk, you either have better, gear, skills, group makeup, or attention span then they do. It's entirely possible for a monk to get zonewide parse of 1k to even around 1.3k with a a really well equipped and played monk in a good group makeup, but your rogues, predators, summoners, and sorcerors are going to do better then that with similar circumstances.</p><p>2. Your friend is a braggart and weenie, and his statements are probably not even true. He may be out parsing some certain fights, especially if the dps classes on his raids are slacking, but no matter if that's the case it's a reflection of those individuals, not the comparison of the classes.</p><p>3. Our EOF AA's make me sad in the pants and make for a much bigger gap between us and true dps'ers when brought into account.</p><p>And just on a related note... I see a lot of people focusing on DPS buffs to up their damage, which is good and should be done, but don't forget your STRENGTH too, this plays a huge role in your DPS. I self buff my haste to 124 and DPS to 20, but with my strength buffed up to say around 1000, I can still usually cap 1k dps even without any additional DPS or haste buffs from my groupmates. Zerkers make a great groupmate since they can offer us both STR buffs and a proc for more haste and dps.</p></blockquote> If a monk is out dpsing rogues, nukes, predetors or summoners......there guild needs to kick those peeps and find someone who can play there class.

[Rrawl]

<p>Yeah... that's basically what I was saying Fleaball, or they need to take a bit of time to train em.</p><p>I had a swashbuckler that did a good job of debuffing but he just needed a little help and advice on getting his personal dps up to make the cut, now of course, he out does me every time...  /sigh</p>

[Zutan]

<p>Myself and another monk, who are at least 70% or more "Fabled" primary gear and mastercrafted, legendary and fabled jewelry do not parse anywhere near the high numbers some of you post and we are wondering why that is.</p><p>I have Twin Calamaties + 296dmg adornment proc and Fists of Bashing</p><p>I have 101% haste self buffed and +20 DPS from adornments.</p><p>I have about 530str self buffed (without potions) and can get into the 600s or 700s in raids.</p><p>I rarely get in a group that gives me MORE haste or DPS mods.</p><p>I have maxed out crit hits in AA. I also have an AA with 4pts spent in it that gives a Proc.</p><p>I tend to parse 650 to 800ish with the occasional 900-1000 dps. (another player in guild doing the parses).</p><p>This seems low to me based on what some of you are saying you get with same/similar weapons.  Any clues to why that would be?  I do my big hit CAs first.  I have tried using ALL CAs or just the ones that hit higher than 500dmg.  I have Some M1 or M2 CAs and some AD3 and a few AD1.</p><p>I guess I need to parse myself on raids to see if I am actually being parsed accurately by the other guy.</p><p>My AGI is about 415 or so self buffed, does AGI affect my DPS at all?  Anything else I can do beyond haste/dps mods that would improve my DPS?</p>

[Nerill]

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>On our raids <u><i><b>in the right group</b></i></u> I can hit 1.2 - 1.4 K DPS. The "right" group for me includes buffs from a Zerker, Inquisitor and Dirge / Troubie. If I am <u>not</u> in an optimal group I run about 800 - 1K DPS. Banzai Lv. 70 Monk Unrest </blockquote>I re-posted what I had said earlier. You pretty much answered your own question. <i>"</i><i>I rarely get in a group that gives me MORE haste or DPS mods." </i>It is not so much the haste buffs that you need, it is the +DPS buffs as well as buffs to your Offensive abilities. Being in the <u>right</u> group makes a <b>huge</b> difference. Also, unless all your Combat Arts are all Master I & II w/ a few Adept 3's mixed in, expect DPS in the range that you are seeing. Finally, if your raid force is not de-buffing the MOB to the fullest extent, your DPS would be lower than what some here have posted. Click on the "Equipment" link in my Signature if you are curious as to what gear I have. Hope this helps answer your questions.

[Zutan]

I can definitely tell when the raid force finally gets the mob debuffed... I go from nearly all "miss" to nearly all "hit"..  I guess maybe I should just auto attack the first few seconds until I see the debuffs land then start with CAs..

[Duave]

<cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Myself and another monk, who are at least 70% or more "Fabled" primary gear and mastercrafted, legendary and fabled jewelry do not parse anywhere near the high numbers some of you post and we are wondering why that is.</p><p>I have Twin Calamaties + 296dmg adornment proc and Fists of Bashing</p><p>I have 101% haste self buffed and +20 DPS from adornments.</p><p>I have about 530str self buffed (without potions) and can get into the 600s or 700s in raids.</p><p>I rarely get in a group that gives me MORE haste or DPS mods.</p><p>I have maxed out crit hits in AA. I also have an AA with 4pts spent in it that gives a Proc.</p><p>I tend to parse 650 to 800ish with the occasional 900-1000 dps. (another player in guild doing the parses).</p><p>This seems low to me based on what some of you are saying you get with same/similar weapons.  Any clues to why that would be?  I do my big hit CAs first.  I have tried using ALL CAs or just the ones that hit higher than 500dmg.  I have Some M1 or M2 CAs and some AD3 and a few AD1.</p><p>I guess I need to parse myself on raids to see if I am actually being parsed accurately by the other guy.</p><p>My AGI is about 415 or so self buffed, does AGI affect my DPS at all?  Anything else I can do beyond haste/dps mods that would improve my DPS?</p></blockquote>You need to go full offensive and blaze (I get to 126 self buffed with haste bracers of brawling, still slacking on DT access on the monk.) Assuming you have a dirge or inquis: If you burn all your CAs in the first 10 seconds of fighting and get the dirge to burn COB you go to like 180% haste and a proc on every melee hit. It's [Removed for Content] nuts, I can parse 1400ish constantly with Marr's and Calamity. Stack fanaticism and an inquisitor DPS buff and you get nice dps. However, no doubt a melee DPS class could do a LOT more with this than a monk.

[Waung]

<cite>Duave wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Myself and another monk, who are at least 70% or more "Fabled" primary gear and mastercrafted, legendary and fabled jewelry do not parse anywhere near the high numbers some of you post and we are wondering why that is.</p><p>I have Twin Calamaties + 296dmg adornment proc and Fists of Bashing</p><p>I have 101% haste self buffed and +20 DPS from adornments.</p><p>I have about 530str self buffed (without potions) and can get into the 600s or 700s in raids.</p><p>I rarely get in a group that gives me MORE haste or DPS mods.</p><p>I have maxed out crit hits in AA. I also have an AA with 4pts spent in it that gives a Proc.</p><p>I tend to parse 650 to 800ish with the occasional 900-1000 dps. (another player in guild doing the parses).</p><p>This seems low to me based on what some of you are saying you get with same/similar weapons.  Any clues to why that would be?  I do my big hit CAs first.  I have tried using ALL CAs or just the ones that hit higher than 500dmg.  I have Some M1 or M2 CAs and some AD3 and a few AD1.</p><p>I guess I need to parse myself on raids to see if I am actually being parsed accurately by the other guy.</p><p>My AGI is about 415 or so self buffed, does AGI affect my DPS at all?  Anything else I can do beyond haste/dps mods that would improve my DPS?</p></blockquote>You need to go full offensive and blaze (I get to 126 self buffed with haste bracers of brawling, still slacking on DT access on the monk.) Assuming you have a dirge or inquis: If you burn all your CAs in the first 10 seconds of fighting and get the dirge to burn COB you go to like 180% haste and a proc on every melee hit. It's [Removed for Content] nuts, I can parse 1400ish constantly with Marr's and Calamity. Stack fanaticism and an inquisitor DPS buff and you get nice dps. However, no doubt a melee DPS class could do a LOT more with this than a monk. </blockquote>you get to 126 haste mod, that's around 101%.  think i get like 134 haste mod and it's 104% self buffed haste?  scroll over the number for the %

[Duave]

Trainn@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>Duave wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Myself and another monk, who are at least 70% or more "Fabled" primary gear and mastercrafted, legendary and fabled jewelry do not parse anywhere near the high numbers some of you post and we are wondering why that is.</p><p>I have Twin Calamaties + 296dmg adornment proc and Fists of Bashing</p><p>I have 101% haste self buffed and +20 DPS from adornments.</p><p>I have about 530str self buffed (without potions) and can get into the 600s or 700s in raids.</p><p>I rarely get in a group that gives me MORE haste or DPS mods.</p><p>I have maxed out crit hits in AA. I also have an AA with 4pts spent in it that gives a Proc.</p><p>I tend to parse 650 to 800ish with the occasional 900-1000 dps. (another player in guild doing the parses).</p><p>This seems low to me based on what some of you are saying you get with same/similar weapons.  Any clues to why that would be?  I do my big hit CAs first.  I have tried using ALL CAs or just the ones that hit higher than 500dmg.  I have Some M1 or M2 CAs and some AD3 and a few AD1.</p><p>I guess I need to parse myself on raids to see if I am actually being parsed accurately by the other guy.</p><p>My AGI is about 415 or so self buffed, does AGI affect my DPS at all?  Anything else I can do beyond haste/dps mods that would improve my DPS?</p></blockquote>You need to go full offensive and blaze (I get to 126 self buffed with haste bracers of brawling, still slacking on DT access on the monk.) Assuming you have a dirge or inquis: If you burn all your CAs in the first 10 seconds of fighting and get the dirge to burn COB you go to like 180% haste and a proc on every melee hit. It's [Removed for Content] nuts, I can parse 1400ish constantly with Marr's and Calamity. Stack fanaticism and an inquisitor DPS buff and you get nice dps. However, no doubt a melee DPS class could do a LOT more with this than a monk. </blockquote>you get to 126 haste mod, that's around 101%.  think i get like 134 haste mod and it's 104% self buffed haste?  scroll over the number for the % </blockquote>yeah, sorry i meant 180+ haste mod.. I usually cap it (like 210).. if you also get deathmarch thats an added plus to whoop [Removed for Content]. Are you spamming? I usually just spam keys as they come up for max dps.

[Waung]

i usually do a small delay in between my CA's, try to make sure that i get time for autoattack damage although not exactly sure if that's still a valid point anymore, and i also always start out with punishing cobra

[PrimusPilus]

Trainn@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>i usually do a small delay in between my CA's, try to make sure that i get time for autoattack damage although not exactly sure if that's still a valid point anymore, and i also always start out with punishing cobra</blockquote>It depends on your weapon delays. Use /weaponstats to find your delays, if the delay of either is over 1.0, you need that small delay between CA's to get in an autoattack, since an autoattack takes 1 second (cast+refresh). If both weapons are at or under 1.0, there is no need for a pause.

[PrimusPilus]

<cite>Rrawl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And just on a related note... I see a lot of people focusing on DPS buffs to up their damage, which is good and should be done, but don't forget your STRENGTH too, this plays a huge role in your DPS. I self buff my haste to 124 and DPS to 20, but with my strength buffed up to say around 1000, I can still usually cap 1k dps even without any additional DPS or haste buffs from my groupmates. Zerkers make a great groupmate since they can offer us both STR buffs and a proc for more haste and dps.</p></blockquote>I suspect. from tests Iv made, that perhaps the main advantage of strength is that you hit more accuratly. I havent seen much reported on CA's or autoattack doing a lot more damage with strength higher (a difference of about 200 strength doesn't seem to add much to the examined numbers), but accuracy seems to go way up. One might be able to get +crush/slash/pierce gear and buffs that also does the same.

[Cyngii]

From my personal experiences when i'm in a non DPS raid group i'm averaging right around 1000dps +/-.  When i'm in the melee DPS group i'm averaging around 1200-1300 zonewide.  Now as far as being "on par" with other DPS classes, that's a big no way.  Using the following "melee DPS" group as an example: Inquisitor, Dirge, Monk, Bruiser, Brigand, and Assassin, while monk and bruiser are around 1200-1400 (bruiser jumps here with multiple target encounters), the assassin and brigand are in the 1800-2000dps range.  The reason why there's no reason to get your panties in a bunch when it comes to raid dps is so much is dependant on the raid setup.  Not only does the group you're in make a big difference, the amount and type of debuffers you got, the zone you're in, the mob you're attacking all make a huge difference.  Go fight the Corsolander or a named that can block/deflect from all angles and you don't find too many melee bragging about their DPS.

[Junaru]

Just to back up my point I made on page #1. Last night I helped a friends guild out on some guild raids. Both raids I parsed #1 zone wide. Woot for me. But that doesn't show the whole picture. Looking into it more detailed you can see for each named mob I was 3rd to 5th in the parse. So like I said, it is possible for a Monk to our parse a "true" dps class zone wide but thats mainly due to them saving their big hits for the named mobs.