Raid DPS, casual, raiding, hardcore...

[ghobx]

<p>I am the guild leader of an emerging raiding guild, just finishing up on KOS content and beginning to explore EoF.  My question is this...</p><p>On zonewide parses we are pulling down 12-14k dps, I know this is an improvement from the pickup/casual raids I used to frequent that would average between 9-11k... </p><p>I talk to my friends in some of the more hardcore guilds and they speak of zonewide dps 20-25k+ consistantly...  They say they have shaman doing 1k+ and druids as well... mages and scouts at 3k...  I know that our lack of bards and enchanters is probably accounting for some of our dps being lower than the hardcore, and to some extent equipment as well... but our top parsers are usually in the 1.2 to 1.5 range no where near 3k+...</p><p> Is this just a hardcore raider embellishing or maybe talking about specific encounters? or can zonewide dps parses really be THAT high?  I would like to see some of those parses myself.... seeing is believing after all.</p><p>If an experienced "hardcore" raider could chime in as to what I should be expecting from my healers, scouts, mages, and tanks that would be wonderful as well.</p>

[DngrMou]

I'm always keen on improving my DPS, (swashy), and heals/debuffs, (fury)....so I'm interested in answers to the OP's question too.

[Phardash]

Well, a hardcore guild SHOULD have members who have fully mastered and fabled gear.. if they call themselves hardcore and it also depends highly on the encounter. For instance --- the guild I am in usually parses 18k to 27k per fight depending on who and what we are fighting... mobs in Freethinkers go down alot quicker than mobs elsewhere imo. I personally parse about 1.5-2.2k dps and I can usually attribute the max to having a troub and fury in my group and I am no where close to fully mastered. Also we usually have 2 brigands switchin up dispatch which also helps. 2k dps should be the goal for every player and it doesnt come easily --- you need a fair amount of proccing gear.. mostly mastered and a good raid set up.. then youll see that damage. Having a tank that can hold aggro through large nukes is also a plus.. our warlocks and wizards have to hold back sometimes which sucks but ah well-- well get there.

[ZUES]

<p>Theres alot of things you can do to maximize your efficiency on the raid and increase overall dps. One thing I would suggest is one group with wizard, conj, fury ot templar, necro, dirge or troub and any other mage. The reasnon for this particular set up is INT buffs. On average with this set up you have between 900-1000 int per caster and mobs drops substantially faster. This group will almost always be the top 5 parses in the raid.</p><p>Another thing to add is this set up almost always requires 2 hate transfers in the main tank group. This group is a little squishy at times but with the fury not dpsing and focusing on the group all will go smoothly.</p>

[KBern]

<p>To be successful in many of the newer zones you need to be able to put out 20+k when it is needed.</p><p>Zonewide can be misleading....trash cleaning can have AFK's or slackers.  Wipes can hurt zonewide DPS parses, etc.  Zonewide is simply an average and not a the end all be all stat.</p><p>Certain mobs you cannot DPS all out if you cannot use swarm pets, or joust a lot, or other factors.</p><p>Though in many encounters the 20+k raid DPS is what is needed.</p><p>It really does depend on group make up. </p><p>Scout group should have in Inq, Dirge, and possibly a Bruiser.</p><p>Mage groups should have Illusionist, Troub or Dirge (I think they give item proc bonuses, not sure) wizard helps with frigid winds, fury as the healer, other mages.</p><p>The above two basic set ups if can be done will help to increase your raid DPS.  It takes some time and experimenting wiht the classes your raid has available, and then seeing what buffs should be up or down to help increase your DPS.</p>

[rubels]

<p>This is comming from a member of a semi casual / hard core raid guild. We raid roughly 3 -4 days weekly.</p><p>If your saying your finishing up KOS content. That should mean most your "raid force" is either fully lab , Lycm,</p><p>HOS and have Deathtoll access. When im speaking of your raid force. I am at least speaking of 3 solid groups out</p><p>of the 4 that raid on a regular. If thats your case of having those types of numbers , and about where your in the </p><p>progression. Then yes you should be pulling down on a avg of 16 - 18 K parse. This is with having only 2 solid </p><p>DPS groups , 1 MT group and a "slush" non raiding group. If your not set up as I posted above. Besides EOF </p><p>trash and a once in awhile a named Kill in ... your going to die alot. Progression is progression. </p><p>If your not hitting those numbers. I whould suggest seriously continue until your finished with KOS content.</p><p>- Krovax</p>

[Chog]

<cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Theres alot of things you can do to maximize your efficiency on the raid and increase overall dps. One thing I would suggest is one group with wizard, conj, fury ot templar, necro, dirge or troub and any other mage. <b>The reasnon for this particular set up is INT buffs</b>. On average with this set up you have between 900-1000 int per caster and mobs drops substantially faster. This group will almost always be the top 5 parses in the raid.</p><p>Another thing to add is this set up almost always requires 2 hate transfers in the main tank group. This group is a little squishy at times but with the fury not dpsing and focusing on the group all will go smoothly.</p></blockquote><p> You do realize that caster group buffs do not stack with the intelligence portion?  If a Wizard (Int/Str) and a Necromancer (Int/Sta) are in a group together, with equal quality group stat buff, people will only recieve intelligence, strength, and stamina in equal amounts.  They will not recieve two intellignece boosts.</p><p>Same thing with a Dirge and Troubador.  Dirge (Str/Agi) and Troubador (Str/Sta) will only increase the strength of the group by one buff not both; although, everybody will recieve the agility and stamina increase.</p>

[wickermanuk]

I can totally understand where the OP is coming from and I agree it is a huge step up in terms of progression going from KoS to EoF. What I think you have to realise is that its pointless to compare your guilds DPS to a hardcore raid guilds dps. The guilds who are putting out 25k+ dps most probably raid 5 nights + a week, have 4 set groups with all players near the cap in terms of AA's and also have near perfect group setups. It will take a casual raid guild a long time to get all their players upto speed in terms of AA's, then you have  to deal with only have two, or two and half group s who constantly raid, this leaves you  bringing in casual players who again are most prob ably new to raiding and have not got such develope d characters. Group setup is also vital. Some classes are incredibly rare, I see some raid guilds with 3 bards, 2 enchanters at their disposal. These type of classes who buff everyone else and raise everyones DPS make a huge difference. Throw your best mages into with a fury/illusionist/troub and you'll see a insane boost to that groups dps. Put your predators/rogues in with a coercer and a dirge and again the jump in DPS is massive. Just having those options available to you makes a huge difference, the trouble is getting these options on a consistent basis in a casual guild is nigh on impossible. Dont also forget debuffs, having 2 brigs doing back 2 back dispatches has a tremendous impact on DPS, again something that is not going to be so easy to achieve unless you have the right classes. I would just try and emphasise to the people in your guild who raid regularly how important the AA's are, and also try and do the same with the casual people, but it will always very difficult.

[Roriondesexiest]

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><p>To be successful in many of the newer zones you need to be able to put out 20+k when it is needed.</p><p>Zonewide can be misleading....trash cleaning can have AFK's or slackers.  Wipes can hurt zonewide DPS parses, etc.  Zonewide is simply an average and not a the end all be all stat.</p><p>Certain mobs you cannot DPS all out if you cannot use swarm pets, or joust a lot, or other factors.</p><p>Though in many encounters the 20+k raid DPS is what is needed.</p><p>It really does depend on group make up. </p><p>Scout group should have in Inq, Dirge, and possibly a Bruiser.</p><p>Mage groups should have Illusionist, Troub or Dirge (I think they give item proc bonuses, not sure) wizard helps with frigid winds, fury as the healer, other mages.</p><p>The above two basic set ups if can be done will help to increase your raid DPS.  It takes some time and experimenting wiht the classes your raid has available, and then seeing what buffs should be up or down to help increase your DPS.</p></blockquote><p>QFE, I would be more interested in what kind of numbers you can put up when needed.  My raid group seems to hover between 12 - 16k zone wide but there are mobs we only put out 10k on because of how the mobs work, but when needed to we have put up 25k on some nameds.</p><p>If you are fighting mobs that need to be jousted and you bring alot of scouts as we do the dps goes down, if it's a mob we can sit there and poke with sticks our dps goes up considerably. </p>

[ZUES]

<cite>Chogar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Theres alot of things you can do to maximize your efficiency on the raid and increase overall dps. One thing I would suggest is one group with wizard, conj, fury ot templar, necro, dirge or troub and any other mage. <b>The reasnon for this particular set up is INT buffs</b>. On average with this set up you have between 900-1000 int per caster and mobs drops substantially faster. This group will almost always be the top 5 parses in the raid.</p><p>Another thing to add is this set up almost always requires 2 hate transfers in the main tank group. This group is a little squishy at times but with the fury not dpsing and focusing on the group all will go smoothly.</p></blockquote><p> You do realize that caster group buffs do not stack with the intelligence portion?  If a Wizard (Int/Str) and a Necromancer (Int/Sta) are in a group together, with equal quality group stat buff, people will only recieve intelligence, strength, and stamina in equal amounts.  They will not recieve two intellignece boosts.</p><p>Same thing with a Dirge and Troubador.  Dirge (Str/Agi) and Troubador (Str/Sta) will only increase the strength of the group by one buff not both; although, everybody will recieve the agility and stamina increase.</p></blockquote> ROFL. Who gave you your information? The only things that dont stack are 2 of the same classes buffs if their the same tier. Form this group I mentioned and repost.

[simpwrx02]

<cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chogar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Theres alot of things you can do to maximize your efficiency on the raid and increase overall dps. One thing I would suggest is one group with wizard, conj, fury ot templar, necro, dirge or troub and any other mage. <b>The reasnon for this particular set up is INT buffs</b>. On average with this set up you have between 900-1000 int per caster and mobs drops substantially faster. This group will almost always be the top 5 parses in the raid.</p><p>Another thing to add is this set up almost always requires 2 hate transfers in the main tank group. This group is a little squishy at times but with the fury not dpsing and focusing on the group all will go smoothly.</p></blockquote><p> You do realize that caster group buffs do not stack with the intelligence portion?  If a Wizard (Int/Str) and a Necromancer (Int/Sta) are in a group together, with equal quality group stat buff, people will only recieve intelligence, strength, and stamina in equal amounts.  They will not recieve two intellignece boosts.</p><p>Same thing with a Dirge and Troubador.  Dirge (Str/Agi) and Troubador (Str/Sta) will only increase the strength of the group by one buff not both; although, everybody will recieve the agility and stamina increase.</p></blockquote> ROFL. Who gave you your information? The only things that dont stack are 2 of the same classes buffs if their the same tier. Form this group I mentioned and repost.</blockquote>Zues you are wrong.  int buffs do not stack from mages. aka a wizzy, necro , and illusionist with all of thier int buffs will not add 255 int to the gruop, but 85.  I personally have 733int solo and that number stays the same unless I get a fury, they are the only non mage class that buffs group int.  A few other classes have short term init buffs that stack and the fury also has a single target int buff that stacks, however that is it. 

[TheBu]

<p>I would ask them to send to a zone parse some time... but note ther not 100% depending on where the on parsing is</p><p> Lookin the class forums for parse threads.. like <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=330&topic_id=163734" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=163734</a></p><p>as far as group make ups.. </p><p>having a caster group and a melee group can help u organize a bit easier... in the mage group a fury & trub.. but putting in ilu is a good idea as well. even if some of the int buff do not stack withe the necro and wiz it still good. as ur giving a str buff to the pet and sta to the wiz. </p><p>also if u want to up ur dps besides groupings, master spells and aa...   Ask yourself if anyone steal agro.. if so then u prob have pep holding back.</p>

[Gargamel]

<p>I'd like to hear some necro strategies becuase 3k dps individually is just insane.</p><p>I can break 2k sometimes if its a long fight, high hp on the mob and I burn undead tide... or if I get a lifeburn AND enough healing to keep it goinga bit more than 'default'.</p><p>But I can't see how necro is supposed to pull 3k a fight... special fights perhaps... when there are tons of mobs and AoE's come into play for example (and running with the mage pet) it might break 2k without the special tricks.</p><p> I just think the people who are quick to answer are those wanting to show off and so you get these numbers, that while they might have hit them, are not regular, or usual, even for them in their uber-ness.</p><p>I've got mostly fabled, some legendary (KoS class not EoF), half my sellls are master 1, the rest are ad3, been playing since launch, always have a spell in queue, and if I do well (and mobs aren't going down in under 6 seconds) sit in the 1.1 to 1.4 range during your average Labs run, but like I said could pull 2.5k if I burn undead tide just perfectly, or lifeburn with a healer.</p><p>Like others said, group makeup is mostly behind raid wide DPS.  Having a shorter cast timer in your mage dps group can increase their dps by a few hundred right there without them even doing anything different or different equipment.</p><p>Also if you have to run with "too many tanks" make sure they don't think they can sit back and not DPS.  Too many times tank classes are told they can't do jack dps, while I've seen many a bruiser or monk with the proper buffs, out parse some slacking mages.  (of course mob dependant)</p>

[Chog]

<cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chogar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Theres alot of things you can do to maximize your efficiency on the raid and increase overall dps. One thing I would suggest is one group with wizard, conj, fury ot templar, necro, dirge or troub and any other mage. <b>The reasnon for this particular set up is INT buffs</b>. On average with this set up you have between 900-1000 int per caster and mobs drops substantially faster. This group will almost always be the top 5 parses in the raid.</p><p>Another thing to add is this set up almost always requires 2 hate transfers in the main tank group. This group is a little squishy at times but with the fury not dpsing and focusing on the group all will go smoothly.</p></blockquote><p> You do realize that caster group buffs do not stack with the intelligence portion?  If a Wizard (Int/Str) and a Necromancer (Int/Sta) are in a group together, with equal quality group stat buff, people will only recieve intelligence, strength, and stamina in equal amounts.  They will not recieve two intellignece boosts.</p><p>Same thing with a Dirge and Troubador.  Dirge (Str/Agi) and Troubador (Str/Sta) will only increase the strength of the group by one buff not both; although, everybody will recieve the agility and stamina increase.</p></blockquote> ROFL. Who gave you your information? The only things that dont stack are 2 of the same classes buffs if their the same tier. Form this group I mentioned and repost.</blockquote>My information comes from personal experience.  Get a group of six casters together and see how much your intelligence is increased.

[Caetrel]

Experienced raiding guilds are gonna put up 20-25k+ zonewides, yes.  This is contingent not just on gear and experience, but classes and group make-up...that is where you need to focus.  People can drop crazy parses in your face and give you all the tips in the world, but you know who and what you have to work with. If you use a troub, an illusionist, more than one dirge and more than one brigand while mimimizing the number of healers and especially plate fighters you will maximize the dps you have.   Try different set-ups and see what effects your parse.  Labs and Lyceum are great test zones, it is easy to parse high on trash and named mobs and they are pretty risk- free and straightfowrward fights. The classes you bring are the main determining factor...It is better to have a dozen people parsing 1.5k than 6 parsing 2k and 6 more either slacking or unable to output damage.   The big number at the top of the parse is what really matters.  We always set a goal to reach X dps, and if you do that, even in baby steps, it will help you improve.   We use a dps chat channel to drop the parse for every fight...this keeps people on their toes and points out errors in group composition quickly. There are alot of parsewrecking mobs...Malkonis kicks people up, Cheldrak has adds...when you hear people talking about doing 30k it is not on mobs like this but straight-up easy fights like most of KoS.

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<p>I disagree, I think it <i>is</i> more dependent on the skill and gear of every player, than how the raid is organised. Group makeup is pretty much a given and easily done; what makes a good DPS player is someone who can consistently parse 1500+ <i>without</i> <i>needing</i> a group tailored to them. What makes a good zonewide is a raid full of support players who, whilst their class isn't intended to be T1 DPS, still know to get good DPS out of it. Yep, in a 30k parse you've got a lifeburning necro etc at the top, but it's the tanks and healers parsing 1k+ that push it that high. It's critical you have a good MT and MA; a bad MA can drop a parse substantially wheras a good one will give the DPS confidence to go all out and target quickly. A tank that can't hold aggro is also obviously a major problem.</p><p>It is, of course, hard to approach someone and tell them they suck at playing their class. Posting a parse after every fight is a good thing imo, that lets people see how much damage they're putting out comparatively and encourages them to work to improve it. Some players will simply never grasp that they should be casting continuously and hitting CAs the second they come up, much as some will never bother with the potions, masters, arrows, blessings etc. or understand how to make the most of Dispatch and CoB/PoM. The only thing you can do is either filter them out at the recruitment stage, or try to politely suggest they chat to someone of the same class who parses higher to try and figure out what they're doing wrong.</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

While gear and player skill plays a large part...it really *is* dependant on the group makes ups. Some players come and go, or raid forces are in various levels of building up.....if you're raid force is missing particular debuffer/buffer/Aggro transfer/Aggro reducers classes....you may never hit the huge parses consistantly, or at all. Raid DPS is very dependant on group makeup.

[KBern]

<p>Exactly. </p><p>You can disagree as much as you want but the facts are facts.  Group buffs can greatly improve DPS if set up a certain way.  Simply test it out.  Make your MT group so your MT will live, but after that just randomly group up the other 18 with no sense of order.  Parse your fights.</p><p>Then set the groups up correctly.  DPS, haste, and melee mods with your scouts....de-agro, spell proc's, int buffs, and casting speed for your mages...parse these fights and then come back here and say it doesnt make that much of a difference.</p><p>Of course skill comes into play, but if you have a scout sitting with 4 mages and a templar, that scout will not do as much DPS as if you put that same scout with an Inq, Dirge, and Bruiser.</p>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><p>Exactly. </p><p>You can disagree as much as you want but the facts are facts.  Group buffs can greatly improve DPS if set up a certain way.  Simply test it out.  Make your MT group so your MT will live, but after that just randomly group up the other 18 with no sense of order.  Parse your fights.</p><p>Then set the groups up correctly.  DPS, haste, and melee mods with your scouts....de-agro, spell proc's, int buffs, and casting speed for your mages...parse these fights and then come back here and say it doesnt make that much of a difference.</p><p>Of course skill comes into play, but if you have a scout sitting with 4 mages and a templar, that scout will not do as much DPS as if you put that same scout with an Inq, Dirge, and Bruiser.</p></blockquote><p> You minsunderstand me, what I'm saying is that group makeup whilst important is something easily done. If it was just a case of sticking the right classes in the right slots then most raids would hit 30k parses.</p><p>A poorly-played Ranger with Adept Is, for example, will parse 500ish. I see that all the time in pickups. A well-played one with Masters parses 2200ish. No amount of support buffs in the world are going to make up that difference.</p>

[YeldarbSpiritbla]

<p>You've already gotten some ideas on group makeups, so I won't go into those. You should only have 3 or 4, maybe 5 if you're fighter heavy, fighters in the raid. I know it's hard to tell someone to bow out, but sometimes it has to be done. We have a MT, a crusader, an OT (usually berserker), and a brawler at the most.</p><p>Watch the parses and see who's parsing low. Ask them if they need anything. Make sure your dependable casters and T1 scouts are mastered out. If the guild bank has to buy masters, do it. You should get masters from names if you raid regularly, but sometimes you got to reach into your pockets and get those nasty rares. A difference between some adept III's and masters are huge. Buy only the IMPORTANT DPS masters if needed. Use a little discretion and judgement.</p><p>Make sure your scouts are bringing poisons. OR get scouts that look after themselves. If they are parsing under 1500-2000 consistently, find out if they need someone to make them anything. In guild crafters are a huge asset to raids. If 12 people are running an average of 2k then you got your 24k. It isn't quite that simple, but you get the idea. Top parsing summoners and wizzards and warlocks will hit up to 3k, assassins and rangers can hit 2.5k, swashies and brigands should be in the 2.5k range. Make sure the debuffs are piling up on the mob. Most UI's will show the buffs/debuffs under the mob's name. Put your mouse over those and make sure those debuffs are stacking up.</p><p>If someone isn't pushing their potential in dps, have them check the class boards for tips. Everyone should be picking AA's specific for raiding. For instance, brigands and swashies should have STR/WIS, and should be carrying the best one-handers. Most wizards go with AGI/WIS?, and so on. There are great quests and items to be picked up through master strikes and heritages, like the claymore, and the MOA's and collection quests that could help each member as well. Don't just focus on raid items.</p>

[Thornn]

<p>RAID MAKE UP IS KING. By far the higest DPSing group i got as a raid leader is the mage group, man they put up some crazy a$$ numbers sometimes. My guild is 4 days a week raiding. For example in LOA we do about 16k to 17k during the end fight, I think we do just fine for what we are and what we do.</p><p>Plenty goes into it, when rare masters come up i buy them for my members, things like dispatch, decapitate, Steadfast Stance, Holy Redoubt, These all make a huge differnece. Also with the last combat change you are less ressisted with a master, this is no joke. There are a few key things, regen in every group, helps tons. and procing items, alot of which you do not to be UBER to get. Good example the vampire bane set in loping planes. not hard to get ok stats, but adds a 1k proc when all items are on you. plus adornments and AA. it all adds up, just be smart about the gear you have on and the way you make the groups. master strikes are fun also when you can use them.</p><p>another example, For vampire raid zones, make sure you have your bloodline spells, they are made for vampires, easy to do solo. May not seem like much but i will take everything i can get. </p>