I admit I wish I could do that! [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Tash 1

03-12-2007, 10:35 AM

We had a 24 raid last night the fun thing was we was 10 healers! <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Eh well that a bit to much to the heal side so one changed to an alt and some was asked to do dps. Since I flatter myself to do not so bad dps I volunteered but was thrown in to the Mt grp as usual. After the raid I as usual parsed the logs to see if I can find way to improve the raiding. An what do you see? The fury Dps did way over 1000 dps and ended up no4 on the dps and no 5 on the heals.<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I know some of the other healers are a bit slack but the fury had about 30% of my heal amount so she must have spent some time healing as well. Sigh I wish I had something like that to bring to a group. I cant do more than about 5-600 dps doing full dps not casting our sooo slooow heals.<img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I love my Templar but I admit I whish the could give us something more than just heal. Not necessary dps but some thing more than just heal. /Hugs Tash P.S Im very pleased not admitted to do dps It would have been so embarrassing<img src="/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bhee

03-12-2007, 03:23 PM

Actually Kendricke gave me some DPS advise and it did help me a lot. Although I am no way close to a Fury in DPS, or utility, I can stand my own ground in DPS (or Damage Per Hour <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). I wish someone from the development team start playing a Templar regularly and maybe then we would get some love like Furys <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. As of now we are probably the last in the food chain as for any changes are concerned. Unfortunately being a casual player, I don't have time to start and level a Fury, so all I can do now is to whine <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

Gagla

03-12-2007, 04:35 PM

I can understand the want to do more dps, but it should never be expected that a templar can match a fury's dps. Why? Because we do different things. As a MT Templar I give my tank about 2k Health and 15% to proc stoneskin. I don't know what a fury could muster to give anywhere near that protection and defense. Druids in general are balanced they can heal well and deal some damage. We can heal as well, if not better than them, and instead of dps we have massive defensive buffs. They can port to all of the druid rings... we can... odyssey. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that whenever my guild forms up on a raid night, the raid leader has never once said 'I wish we had more druids' but I've heard a few times, 'Wish we had another cleric' or 'Wish we had another shaman'.

dancemice

03-12-2007, 05:40 PM

I've out dps'd rangers with my templar.Granted i was mentored to 51 at the time and acting as main tank/healer.But the dps logs went something like1 - Wizard - Ice nova as high hit for something like 6k damage 200 dps2 - Me. Templar - Tank/healer - only a crappy 120 at the time - i can do way higher, But my achievement tree is a little unbalanced right now (Since respec, I didn't just do stam/int) Now working on agility/stam/int.3 - Ranger - clocking in at 904 - Guardian - 75 ish.I can't remeber the exact figures however.I have noticed, That with my new dps build I'm often hitting for the high 1800's in single attacks, (With a group strength buff, I'm sure i could top out at 2400) Double that with a double attack and i've got instant aggro.Once i get my intelligance line finished - I'm sure i can start nuking for 1200 - 1600 points of damage (Can't wait to top out smite wrath and see the numbers.Tbiggs. 70 Tempy. 61 Aa's

03-12-2007, 05:47 PM

I recently rolled a fury to 40 and I was SHOCKED at the dps potential he has. I never knew.....

Tash 1

03-13-2007, 05:41 AM

This is not an Fury vs Templar rant. or a I want to do more Dps thread ... ok well a little maybe <img src="/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Its more like Oh him impressed I wish I could find out a way to respect myself from Heal to DPS in a minute or a heal to mezz or something like that.<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Druid are just as essential to a raid Mt-grp as the Cleric and Shaman. If you want the best survival chance you need one of each. Outside MT-grp a extra Cleric do just well keeping charge of the single reactives., as I stated many times. But out of the heal role we don't do much. We can do dps but don't expect to be at the top five. Be happy if you do it at the top ten. I guess everyone want so feel a bit special like Ohh lok at me Im soo good at healing or I have all these really cool utilityspells or Im the No1 mezzer or Im ms.Dps. Druids are the Healer Dps class. Shamans the healer front end class. Clerics feel more like a working class hero. We do our job we bring a bunk of healing we have our stoneskin and sanctuary and we buff hitpoints. I really wonder how the other classes regards Templar<img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Are we the great healers or a healer just like others? I know most know furys are great at Dps and that shamans are regarded as the preferable all-round group healer.Im happy with my own DPS its always fun with more but its ok as it is./Hugs Tash

hanfr

03-13-2007, 08:38 AM

Well in 95% of all times, I am #1 Healer in our raids. I just don't know why in so many raids the shamans are #1 since if you can play your class, you can and will have more hps then any other healer (and our Shamans/Druids are top healers). Beside being #1 most of the times, I do my 400 dps (w/o melee) in raid and think thats ok.

Antryg Mistrose

03-13-2007, 08:47 AM

I've noticed in my new guild (old one got Vanguarded), that druids and shaman still seem to be a bit lonely if there aren't two priests in a group. Something I never felt the need for outside Niz/CMM as a Templar. When I play SK, you know grouping with a templar (Unless Kendricke has got at them), that they will focus on healing, and I haven't grouped with a bad one since Thundering Steppes. Similar for Wardens (Shaman & Inqs being so scarce I can't really comment) I can't say the same for Furies however. Having to explain (several times) about cures, and waiting while the level 70 fury in a HoF pickup group found them and put them on a hotbar, really summed up for me the flavour of the month furies that are about. To be fair, I do raid regularly as a troubador with a fury who normally makes the top 8 in DPS parses (the raid is doing mid 20k's so the real dps classes aren't slacking), while still managing to keep my group alive, but that does seem to be the exception..... My templar, when I raided with it, was ONCE top of the parse. But that took a lot of cheating - Picking a short fight trash mob, Casting Hammer before the pull, Vial from HoF, precasting the one reactive I used, Divine Recovery, Yaup, Grandmaster STR potion, not waiting for assist .... I've also heard comments on DPS groups actually wanting a templar - admittedly for "Blessings" & "Divine Recovery" but still, its kinda nice to know that my old class, is still in my COMPLETELY unbiased view, the king of priests<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

da5idblacksun

03-13-2007, 12:31 PM

Tash, I feel exactly the same way. I started a thread here called "Why a Templar?" in an attempt to find out what makes us special. Why would one choose to roll a Templar now? It seems our "special" ability are the lotto heals. I'd love to see us get just a little love in the utility department. Invis or run buff. Something. Furies can practically do everything.

Kendricke

03-13-2007, 04:21 PM

Gaglaak@Vox wrote: <blockquote>I can understand the want to do more dps, but it should never be expected that a templar can match a fury's dps. Why? Because we do different things. As a MT Templar I give my tank about 2k Health and 15% to proc stoneskin. I don't know what a fury could muster to give anywhere near that protection and defense. Druids in general are balanced they can heal well and deal some damage. We can heal as well, if not better than them, and instead of dps we have massive defensive buffs. They can port to all of the druid rings... we can... odyssey. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that whenever my guild forms up on a raid night, the raid leader has never once said 'I wish we had more druids' but I've heard a few times, 'Wish we had another cleric' or 'Wish we had another shaman'.</blockquote>Couldn't agree more. Frankly, we'd never cancel a raid because we didn't have enough Furies or Wardens. We HAVE cancelled raids when we don't have enough Templars/Mystics show up, however. Furies have a great deal of utility, and can fill many roles in a group or raid. Templars are often considered critical for raids, however, due to the sheer amount of defensive buffs and utility they bring. As far as parses go, I almost never care about heal parses. Heal parses are realistically only good for determining who is NOT healing. It's heavily skewed otherwise. For example, a Fury might actually outparse a Templar if the Fury is put into a melee heavy group as the only healer, where all the group members have low resists against targets that have high damage AE's. To further the example, the Templar might be in a MT group with two other healers and with exceptionally geared and resistant groupmates, thus less damage is taken overall, and certainly less damage is healed by the Templar.How does the parse reflect that? It doesn't. It can't. The situation dictates the parse, more often than not. So, again, even though the Furies heal parse may be significantly high, it doesn't necessarily reflect skill of the Fury (and by the same token, it doesn't suggest the Fury is not skilled, either). It does suggest that the Fury is in a group that requires a great deal of healing, however...and knowing the situation will help to represent what the numbers actually mean. By the way, this entire concept that numbers require interpretation is a major reason that the entire discipline of Business Analytics exists in the first place, by the way. Just looking a report may not tell you very much. It's how you interpret those numbers which truly matters.On a raid, whether or I'm leading or not, I prefer that our heal parses aren't posted publically (even though we feed every DPS parse we can into a separate channel). Heal parses can actually harm my raid forces, especially if healers get into a competition over position on the parse. With heals, I'd much prefer my healers retain power and perform their job, instead of worrying about ways to skew the parse in their favor. DPS is different. I want my damage dealers competing. I want them going full on. Healers are different. It's not even comparable in my mind.If you want to win raids, set aside the healing parse and just make sure you perform your job correctly...even if that means curing or debuffing when you could be healing (and thus boosting your parse position). If you want to win DPS parses, don't put volunteer for the MT group.

Kendricke

03-13-2007, 04:30 PM

<cite>da5idblacksun wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tash, I feel exactly the same way. I started a thread here called "Why a Templar?" in an attempt to find out what makes us special. Why would one choose to roll a Templar now? It seems our "special" ability are the lotto heals. I'd love to see us get just a little love in the utility department. Invis or run buff. Something. Furies can practically do everything. </blockquote>In my professional life (outside of gaming), I'm a bit of a specialist in two specific disciplines. Recently, I opted for a new position with a new company, in part due to my expertise in my specialties. While helping my current client interview potential replacements for me, several candidates were outright removed from consideration because they were good in many different areas - but they were considered too "general" for the position I currently hold. Yes, these candidates could "practically do everything", but in regards to the job I hold, they couldn't specifically do any one task exceptionally well. The same basic principle applies. You bemoan our lack of utility. As a raid or group leader, I bemoan the fact that Furies bring a whopping 321 health to a tank's health. I can load up that same tank with nearly 7 times as much health...and a 15% stoneskin...and increase mitigation quite a bit. Sure, the Fury can provide more damage than I can...but with a fraction of my Templar's defensive buff strength available, the Fury will have to spend more time healing.If you're entering an easy area where such defense isn't a concern, then the Fury is a good choice. However, the moment you need a defensive specialist's skill and strengths, the Fury is simply not a good first choice. Of course, if you build your Templar correctly, you'll be able to provide those buffs as well as contribute 600-900 DPS on top of that. I hardly call that a weak class at all. We're just more focused on what it is we do well.You want more Fury "utility", just visit the broker. If I want invisibility or spirit of the wolf, I'll buy a 1 gp totem. I don't need a Fury for that. In fact, I don't have to worry about moving too far from the Fury then. If I want to bring another 2000 health as well as other defensive strengths to a group, I can't very well pick that up from an Alchemist or Woodworker, now can I? No, I absolutely require a metal-clad healer for that.

Kendricke

03-13-2007, 04:32 PM

Tash 123 wrote: <blockquote>Druid are just as essential to a raid Mt-grp as the Cleric and Shaman. If you want the best survival chance you need one of each. </blockquote>We've run many a raid without a druid in our MT group. I won't begin a raid without a Templar and Mystic in our MT group, though.

Tash 1

03-14-2007, 05:19 AM

Ah there you are Kendricke I was worried you had moved on to vanguard. Happy to see you.<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Well the fact remains un scattered that IF you want best healing and buff potential in MT-grp you SHALL have all three classes Druid Cleric and Shaman in mt-grp. There is actually nothing that one can argue about.<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You can do with just some of the healers but still the best healing abilities come when all three classes are present. - EOL - We are not so grand as your guild but most player isn't in your class or your guilds class. But we have had raids without clerics. It's a pain but it works. We have had raids without the other classes to that maybe a bit less pain but it works. So one cleric is wanted granted that. and a second do fine to. And we heal and we heal and we heal! And then we do some healing. Rather often we end up toping the heals and our stoneskin and sanct is usefull. Some very talented templars do great dps to. Heard some say they do 1500+ and that's just great. But as soon as one say It would be nice to play another role in the group when healing not of the essence people say: DPS! we do dps! and a huge amount of dps! But it wasn't actually what I was looking for.<img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Last night I thougt some more... I often do. Ok so the Druids are the dps The Shamans are the utility how about we are the tanks? We have plate right? we ought to be able to stand some punching? I feel it could be nice if we had some feature like a lesser defensive stance and some small taunts so that we could play the tank role some times. Ha ha <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> No! I am not saying that we should be as good as real tanks not even close. But wouldent it be fun in a group looking for Tank last spot! Please guys Anny tanks there ...step up and say. Ok I tank please assist...<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />and healer make sure to heal! <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> /Hugs Tash P.S In some instance runs the other day with the fury and a mystic a Guardian and a necro I actually manage to out dps her against both last mobs. Seem I win in the long fights against single targets. And I think I still am the hardest hitting Templar on my server. (Not that it say anything really)

Kendricke

03-14-2007, 09:38 AM

Tash 123 wrote: <blockquote>Well the fact remains un scattered that IF you want best healing and buff potential in MT-grp you SHALL have all three classes Druid Cleric and Shaman in mt-grp. There is actually nothing that one can argue about.<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You can do with just some of the healers but still the best healing abilities come when all three classes are present. - EOL -</blockquote>That's not quite fact. It's a well established and respected opinion...but not necessarily true for all raid guilds. We shift between a Fury and a Paladin in our MT spot. We've been considering what a Warden might bring to the table there as well.Most druid healing can take place outside of the MT group. The ~300 health buffs hardly make a difference on tanks who are already sporting 13,000-15,000+ health. That leaves Furies specifically, with Urchin that can be cast within group (which removes any possible druid healing from the equation) and of course the Fury group heals (including Hibernation). There are reasons to have a Druid in the MT group, but most of the time, the only buffs which really matter are those regarding heat or cold resistances. Health and mitigation buffs are much lower.I won't argue that druids have better/faster group heals. However, I'm not talking about group heals when I'm discussing the MT. In worst case scenarios, I'm perfectly capable of dropping a Divine Arbitration backed by a Word of Replenishment or two to bring the group back to healed...while still keeping heals running on the MT. I can drop Divine Recovery if we need to cast faster as well.Meanwhile, we might shift a Paladin into the group to give more buffs directly to the MT if we feel it's needed (and amends on the Mystic, Intercede on pulls, as well as Paladin wards on pulls, and Paladin group heals) and allow out-of-group druids to cast single target regenerations and direct heals on the MT from one of the DPS groups.Tash 123 wrote: <blockquote>Ok so the Druids are the dps The Shamans are the utility... </blockquote>Fury utility is based around DPS, yes. However, I've never heard anyone refer to Shamans for their "utility". Which utility might that be? Shaman utility is generally based around even more defense (well, at least Mystics are). Ignore the spirit of the wolf fallacy (honestly, even if you're not on a horse already, I highly doubt you're looking for druids or mystics so the group has spirit of the wolf...). Even so, this is simply "grass is greener" wishful thinking. Not to say that wishful thinking can't potentially help to bring about change, only that it's not necessarily a productive style of play. Learn the strengths and weaknesses of your own class, or switch classes. It's really the only way to play adaptively within an MMO - this one or any other. Though I'm capable of some pretty high numbers for DPS and often speak out regarding our damage dealing potential, I don't feel a need or desire for further damage enhancements to the Templar class. The Templar class is fine in regards to damage and defensive utility. For the love of Marr, cast Involuntary Healer and watch your utility heal most of the entire raid when it triggers. You don't think Furies sit around wishing they could do that?!Here's a trick to try. On your next raid, have a spare Templar along who does NOTHING but damage and debuffs. Have him cast Glory of Battle on a couple group members (I don't normally recommend the spell for raids, but why not, right?). Then have him cast no heals save for Involuntary Healer and Mark of the Celestial. Later, when you're checking out the all-important healing parse, look at that Templar's numbers. Tell me if the healing performed was insignificant. Want to test another contribution most folks don't immediately notice? Run a raid where the Templars never once cast Spurn. Now run a raid with the same force against the same targets with a master level Spurn fully enhanced on every single target. Tell me if you notice a difference in DPS. Ever seen what an increase in 10-20% melee DPS does for a full raid force?I think we add a lot more to groups and raids than most players notice. Even some of our own fail to see our strengths all the time, so enraptured are they apparantly by the incredible verdant hues just on the other side of that fence. Right? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I have no issue with wishful thinking. I guess I'm just more of a pragmatist.

Imagikka

03-14-2007, 11:17 AM

On most of our guild raids we have a defiler (occasionaly a Mystic)/ templar (me) for the MT group. Since this is my raid main, all of my AA's have been selected to focus on being the best MT healer I can be. The shaman in our group will usually surpass me on the heal parse, but with an 18% stoneskin (dirge buffs) not showing on the parse, who cares. A templar, more than any other heal class, IMO, is the best plate tank buffer there is. I heal quite well- from the MT group that is. Now, in looking at an ideal raid, why would I want a templar for any other group? Sure, don't have enough healers that night? Take an extra templar. Doing a zone where there will be high use of an off-tank group? Take an extra templar. Have three dps groups? Don't take an extra templar. There are other heal classes that will keep the heals up just as well and provide other buffs/ utility. Keep in mind I am not saying that they can't add value to those groups, or heal in those groups, they are just not the ideal choice. Now, all that being said, I too have been feeling a little "unloved" as of late. Would be really nice to have a little "flash". I personally don't want more dps. I certainly don't want to compromise any lift in healing I get from AA's to get it either. Druids get ports, run buffs, trees, shamans even get a little doggy. I get to sit quietly and buff my tank. I get a little hammer that gets one-shotted by an AoE, and one fun (actually fun spell)- Faith Respect- that won't work on anyone in the raid cause they are all the same level as me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

da5idblacksun

03-14-2007, 12:30 PM

You don't need to convince us that Templars are awesome healers in the MT group. What we're saying is that is all we are. Seems like every other class in the game has a few things extra outside of it's main function except for us.

Kendricke

03-14-2007, 12:30 PM

Rivenly@Oasis wrote: <blockquote> Now, in looking at an ideal raid, why would I want a templar for any other group? Sure, don't have enough healers that night? Take an extra templar. Doing a zone where there will be high use of an off-tank group? Take an extra templar. Have three dps groups? Don't take an extra templar. There are other heal classes that will keep the heals up just as well and provide other buffs/ utility. Keep in mind I am not saying that they can't add value to those groups, or heal in those groups, they are just not the ideal choice.</blockquote>The thing is that the game's raid design encourages stacking of some classes over others. Once you have one or two tanks on a raid, what's the point of bringing along more? There are six fighter classes. Someone explain to me how all six are treated equally in regards to raid desirability? Is there a reason to bring 3-4 Shadowknights? What about monks? How many monks do you think the average raid leader feels is appropriate to the task of a typical raid? See any raid leaders looking to put a warrior in every group?In a raid force of 24, I only want/need 2-3 fighters at most. Even with maximized diversity, that's still 3 full classes that I find outright redundant. However, does that mean I have a problem bringing 4-5 Conjurors with? Absolutely not! The more the merrier - conjurors stack NICELY on raids.I want a bard in every group...preferably dirges for melee groups and troubadours for casters. Does that mean I want more than 1-2 rangers? Not typically.I absolutely want and need at least 3 "metal" healers per raid (we tend to run two tank groups). Since we're Qeynos only, that means 1 or 2 Templars and 1 or 2 Mystics. Even if we weren't Qeynos only, I'd still want 1 or 2 clerics and 1 or 2 shamans at most. I'd have little problem bringing along 3-4 druids, though. Because they aren't as specialized, I can fit them into other roles, especially when healing isn't as necessary (i.e. - trash). Does it mean I prefer playing a druid over my Templar? No, not at all. It means that I can recognize their strengths without completely ignoring my own.For Templars, we excel at healing and defense. We can perform damage, but it's not our speciality. Furies specialize more toward damage than healing. This isn't news. This hasn't been news for nearly 20 Updates.

Kendricke

03-14-2007, 12:41 PM

<cite>da5idblacksun wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't need to convince us that Templars are awesome healers in the MT group. What we're saying is that is all we are. Seems like every other class in the game has a few things extra outside of it's main function except for us. </blockquote>Hello specialization. The first chapter of the first volume of the Wealth of Nations points out that specialization is preferred over generalization.Take 10 people. Split them up into two different assembly lines. Five of them create a widget from start to finish all day long. The other five concentrate only on one part of creating a widget, specializing in one aspect of the assembly process. It shouldn't come as a surprise that by the end of the day, the specialists create more widgets, by far, than the generalists. Reversing the logic, it's easy to see that you require less specialists to achieve the same general goals as you could with generalists.This is the basis for modern concepts of everything from industrialization to management methodologies. It's why you hear about raid guilds "min-maxing". Sure, I can put a fury anywhere in my raid, but given a choice, I only really need 2-3 at most. I want one in groups 3 and 4, and perhaps another for our MT group (depending on the raid). Of course, I also ideally prefer 2 Templars and 2 Mystics (but that's just us). If we accepted Freeport classes, I'd ideally want just one of each priest class, or 6 healers total. That's it...2 clerics, 2 shaman, and 2 druids. If I WERE to take an extra healer, yes, I'd take another druid. Why? Because they aren't as specialized and I can use them in more roles...but it doesn't mean that the role they fill is more important. Just as generalists stack better in my earlier example doesn't mean that they are more efficient at creating widgets than the team of specialists. It just means that I have more options filling gaps in attendance with a generalist than I do with a specialist.

Imagikka

03-14-2007, 12:47 PM

Hmmm, just want to shift the focus a bit- it isn't a question of if we can dps or not- or if our heals are good enough or not. I think I am an awsome healer, I can do ok dps when I need to or if i'm bored. But, would I like something that would provide a little more general utility- like group invis, run speed, a fun little pet or some ports- ABSOLOUTLY! It's not that I think our class isn't a good one, I'd just like a little pizazz now and again.

Kendricke

03-14-2007, 01:01 PM

Rivenly@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>Hmmm, just want to shift the focus a bit- it isn't a question of if we can dps or not- or if our heals are good enough or not. I think I am an awsome healer, I can do ok dps when I need to or if i'm bored. But, would I like something that would provide a little more general utility- like group invis, run speed, a fun little pet or some ports- ABSOLOUTLY! It's not that I think our class isn't a good one, I'd just like a little pizazz now and again.</blockquote> When you think of clerics or priests in the real world, do you think "pizzazz" or do you think of long rituals, formal ceremonies, lives spent fulfilling vows of poverty, silence, celebecy, and service? I realize that not all classes have as much "wow" factor to them as others, but did you really pick up the Templar class because you wanted "pizzazz"? I didn't.Of course, perhaps you aren't looking over the achievements and spells we already have access to? What? You don't think Hammer Smite has enough "oomph" to it? Not enough je ne sais quoi in Turn Undead? Your casters don't think you have any chutzpah when you cast Divine Recovery? You think pizzazz comes in a bottle? No...it comes in a totem. Well, at least the invisibility, run speed, and fun pets do. Not enough? Pick up tinkering. Now you've got more pets than you know what to do with. I guess Odyssey isn't enough of a port, right?

da5idblacksun

03-14-2007, 01:24 PM

The thing is this is a game and I want to have fun with the class I play. A Templar is fun in the MT group of a raid. A Templar is fun in a group. A Templar is not fun soloing or questing because of lack of utility. As said above, a Templar doesn't have any pizzaz so that's not fun. We're not in business, we're playing a game and the fun factor of our class is unbalanced. If they kept our healing where it is and added a couple of utility spells we'd probably be happy. Odyssey doesn't cut it - especially since they spell re-timers count down offline now. We can't do anything outside of healing. No.. safefall run buff evac port invis useful pet natural dps etc

Imagikka

03-14-2007, 01:34 PM

Not to be argumentative Kendrick, but odyssey isn't really that useful anymore. Not with two calls and recast timers that go down while camped- it's rare that I ever use it on anyone but myself. I really like and use divine recovery and the 25% Inc to gear proce, the latter my group loves, the divine recovery is better for me and useful as an "oh sh***" spell as I don't usually have any casters in my group and it is such a short duration/ long recast. I guess Hammer smite would be pretty good-IF it worked on epics. Be kind of nice to knock down some of the big ones <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And when is the last time you actually cast the summon food and water spell? I have started tinkering on my raid main, just for the fun pets- but that isn't exactly a templar thing. I am definitly not trying to say that templars suck either, so please don't take my posts that way. What I am trying to say is that we could use a little more utility, not somthing that would unbalance anything, and preferably something a little class specific that we don't have to invest a bunch of aa's in. Honestly I don't have some particular thing in mind- was honestly hoping for a few ideas.

da5idblacksun

03-14-2007, 01:35 PM

Oh yeah and the plate armor thing (one of the main reasons I picked this class two years ago). I may survive a little longer than the non-plate healers but generally if level 70 triple ups or epics turn on me I'm dead anyway so the plate doesn't seem to matter. If I solo and there are more than two mobs I can't cast spells anymore because of constant interrupts. Seems that the plate doesn't really do anything for us and it generally doesn't look as good as the other armors (especially on Dwarf). Whatever you do, don't be a Dwarf Templar like me. hehe. By the way, I still love my Templar. He's my main. I've had him for 2 years. He's done almost every HQ in the game. I think its because I like him that it's hard to accept that we have so little "pizazz".

Kendricke

03-14-2007, 04:06 PM

<cite>da5idblacksun wrote:</cite><blockquote>The thing is this is a game and I want to have fun with the class I play. A Templar is fun in the MT group of a raid. A Templar is fun in a group. A Templar is not fun soloing or questing because of lack of utility. As said above, a Templar doesn't have any pizzaz so that's not fun. We're not in business, we're playing a game and the fun factor of our class is unbalanced. </blockquote>I'm going to just start copy/pasting arguments I made a year or so ago on the subject, because it seems that we're simply rehashing the old arguments that went through this forum in late '05 or early '06 now. The bottom line: If you're not having fun, adapt or change: If your chosen class isn't much fun for your preferred playstyle, then either adapt your playstyle to fit the classe or change classes. That's really your only options, especially if you just want to play the game and not worry about the "business" of it (i.e. - complaining to developers to change the class to fit your playstyle).A friend of mine recently likened MMO's to a resturaunt, and I believe his analogy was apt. If you sit down in a resturaunt with certain expectations and those expectations aren't met, then you either adjust or change. If the regular table you prefer isn't available and you don't like the table you're at, try to either adapt to the new seating or try to change tables with the waiter. If you order a steak medium rare and it shows up well done, either adapt to the steak in front of you or try to change the food out for what you originally ordered. If you don't like your server's sense of humor, either attempt to adapt to the server or try to change the server. Sitting in a resturaunt and loudly shouting that this table sucks or that your steak isn't what you really wanted isn't probably the best way to solve anything, except to perhaps annoy everyone else sitting in the resturaunt around you. If you have a legitimate complaint, raise it properly or not at all. The current method you're using isn't working. It tends to get overlooked - quickly. Your statement of "Templar is not fun soloing or questing" is not factual. It's your opinion. My opinion differs wildly. As I've stated in previous responses to you, the class you describe is not the Templar I'm actually playing. You want better soloing utility? BUY it. What possible utility do you want. I'll point out a potion, a totem, achievement, or a tinkered item that performs the same basic function. If you're still not satisfied, accept at least the possibility that the class you've chosen isn't working for your preferred playstyle. I see it all the time when someone gets upset with the game...only to find out how fun it is when they switch classes. It's all a difference in preference.

Kendricke

03-14-2007, 04:22 PM

Rivenly@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>Not to be argumentative Kendrick, but odyssey isn't really that useful anymore. Not with two calls and recast timers that go down while camped- it's rare that I ever use it on anyone but myself. </blockquote>First off, Odyssey is a level 13 spell. It's a level 13 spell!?!! What do you expect at level 12? Uber summoned hammer of doom? Power word: kill boss? At level 13, Odyssey is great. When clerics get Odyssey, shamans and druids get spirit of the wolf. Let's see...a 24% boost in run speed that lasts 15 minutes, or an extra call home for myself or someone else once every 3 minutes. On top of that, it's a unique ability that I can't buy on a broker already You'd rather trade in Odyssey for an ability that you can pick up from the broker for pocket change already? Again, mileage may vary. You claim you rarely use the spell. I use it constantly, on myself and others. Perhaps my playstyle is just a bit more mobile than yours, but when I want to call home after a writ run, I don't think to myself...well, self, if we just camp out for 40 minutes, Call to Qeynos will be up by then. If a groupmate or I want that port right now, I'm not exactly thinking of how Call of Qeynos regenerates offline, now am I?Frankly, it's so convienent to use Odyssey, I sometimes call from my home in South Qeynos to just in front of the Qeynos Harbor bank. Why? Because I can. It saves me from having to zone twice (out of my home and then into Qeynos Harbor), and it saves me the run across the zone. Lazy? You bet...but it's useful to me. What? Is 60 silver for an Odyssey stone big bucks to you? Because it sure isn't to me. Rivenly@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>I really like and use divine recovery and the 25% Inc to gear proce, the latter my group loves, the divine recovery is better for me and useful as an "oh sh***" spell as I don't usually have any casters in my group and it is such a short duration/ long recast. I</blockquote>If I'm in the MT group, I have casters. Those other healers - they cast spells. Even melee are able to rip through their combat arts faster (just ask them). When we're pulling a named and the Mystic has to toss some slows right off the bat, I pop Divine Recovery. Oh look, the slows cast faster and the encounter is under control that much sooner. Seriously folks, if you aren't using the abilities to full potential already, don't write them off just because you don't personally see a point. Ask around and find out what other Templars are doing that you're not. To assume you can't learn anything from other Templars is just folly. To assume an ability is useless or worthless just because you personally dislike it is just short sighted. Rivenly@Oasis wrote:<blockquote>I guess Hammer smite would be pretty good-IF it worked on epics. Be kind of nice to knock down some of the big ones <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Hammer Smite does work on epics. The stun is the only part that does not.

Imagikka

03-14-2007, 05:28 PM

I just want to be really clear here- I love playing a templar. It is my main for a reason. I do enjoy playing some other classes, which is why I have 9 alts. I think the templar class is awesome, but not perfect. I think that a lot of other people feel the same way. Just because we have suggestions as to how to improve the class doesn't mean we want to play a different class. I am not suggesting a class revamp, or eliminating spells other people may find more useful than I do. I respect other people may have different play styles than I do. I personally don't care a whole lot about my dps- as long as I can kill the solo quest mobs I need. Some other people solo/ group a lot more than I do- it may matter more to them, and I feel that is the great part of AA's. I love playing a templar, and don't want to change that. I love vanilla ice cream too- but it's even better with hot fudge sauce sometimes J

Eriol

03-14-2007, 06:22 PM

Kendricke

03-14-2007, 09:38 PM

Rivenly@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>I just want to be really clear here- I love playing a templar. It is my main for a reason. I do enjoy playing some other classes, which is why I have 9 alts. I think the templar class is awesome, but not perfect. I think that a lot of other people feel the same way. Just because we have suggestions as to how to improve the class doesn't mean we want to play a different class. I am not suggesting a class revamp, or eliminating spells other people may find more useful than I do. I respect other people may have different play styles than I do. I personally don't care a whole lot about my dps- as long as I can kill the solo quest mobs I need. Some other people solo/ group a lot more than I do- it may matter more to them, and I feel that is the great part of AA's. I love playing a templar, and don't want to change that. I love vanilla ice cream too- but it's even better with hot fudge sauce sometimes J</blockquote> If the discussion were truly about just suggestions, I might be there with you. As it is, it's another greener grass comparison from Templars to other classes. I could take the time to quote just the comparisons if you'd like.However, in the interests of open discussion, could you list out what you think a Templar should be? Go on. Create a list of all the different features you want in the Templar class. Pretend for a moment that you're in charge of creating the Templar class anew - post what it is you'd do.

Imagikka

03-16-2007, 12:16 PM

First off, let me apologize if I've been unclear. Overall I am pretty satisfied with the templar class, and wouldn't really want to see too much changed. I do have some ideas for things I'd like to see with our aa's, but will save those for another thread <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The changes I'd really like to see are a little more simple: I would like to see a more distinct templar or cleric symbol (no specific idea in mind) Shamans have spirit pets, wardens have trees, wizards have ice etc. We do have the hammer I guess, and if that's the symbol soe wants to use for us, it needs to be more prevalent throughout our spells, but I'd prefer something that's not dps related only. I'm just trying to give examples here, not start comparisons. I would like to see some new graphics for our spells. I mean, if our hammer is only up for a few seconds, wouldn't it just be a little more fun if it was like 10-20 times its current size <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I actually liked divine arbitration the first time I cast it on a really big mob. And lastly, I would really like to see a new utility spell worked in at higher levels. Once again, I don't have anything to specific in mind, but would like to see it have some graphical reference to the "symbol" I mentioned before. Once again, I don't think these are huge changes, and they are certainly not game or class-altering. I'm also not on an "our-class sucks waaaa waaa waaa" trip either. Theses are just a few things that I would like to see that would make playing a templar more fun FOR ME.

mcavellero

03-16-2007, 03:53 PM

Ok so I have a 70 Fury, Templar, and Defiler(in that order). If placed in the MT grp with my templar, in tough raids(where the damage exceeds that of the shamans wards) I usually exceed the shaman in heals. Are you using your lotto heals, are you keeping up your reactives, invested in the right AAs, are you making sure that your scouts/tanks have the Heal Proc Buff. Templars are very important for raids...they provide too much utility for healing to be not important. As for my Defiler. He's awesome but even more passive than my templar... All I do is cast wards and debuff, templar is much more active. The numbers can be high but I find it boring. As for my fury, I can top the parse by spot healing(playing on the furies strengths) I look at the whole raid, and use my fast heals to help people in orange/red. As to the mentioned DPS, yes it is possible there is energy vortex which increases our DPS by 50% but it also decreases our heals by 50% I remember a raid in EoF where I played my defiler in the MT grp we have has a druid and templar in the grp. I was parsing over 100k on the named but the tank kept going down. The templar and druid were parsing under 1k. Were they not able to provide healing for tank and get high numbers....no. It's not the class, it's them. When my wards go down I need those reactives and regens to help the tanks HP get up. I remember getting so upset because here I was, the "best" healing class, and the tank was still going down. My point is that there is no best healing class. Each class has it's strengths, and those strengths will shine in the right situations respectively if you know how to utilize them. I would also like to say if you playing your class just because of the attention/to be the center of attention and not having fun doing so, you are playing the wrong class and for the wrong reasons.

Livi

03-16-2007, 05:49 PM

Tash 123 wrote: <blockquote>Druid are just as essential to a raid Mt-grp as the Cleric and Shaman. If you want the best survival chance you need one of each. Outside MT-grp a extra Cleric do just well keeping charge of the single reactives., as I stated many times. But out of the heal role we don't do much. We can do dps but don't expect to be at the top five. Be happy if you do it at the top ten. </blockquote> Not really. Probably 90% of the time my guild only has a Templar and Defiler in the Main Tank group only... Usually the only time we have a druid join the group is if there is a cure (for example delevel) that is really really detrimental to getting cured right away. Otherwise we have another hate transfer in the group instead of the druid, this way the DPS doesn't have to worry as much about pulling aggro and the healers don't have to heal as much because the mob is dieing faster. Other than that our raid usually has Defiler / Templar in MT group. Druid / Inquis , Druid, Mystic. In the other 3 groups. And sometimes we only bring 1 druid.We dont do much? We have debuffs that when the mob is attacked it heals the WHOLE raid... I dont think any other class has that... the other cleric would also keep debuffs up heal their group, and keep st reatives up.

mcavellero

03-16-2007, 05:58 PM

"Not really. Probably 90% of the time my guild only has a Templar and Defiler in the Main Tank group only... Usually the only time we have a druid join the group is if there is a cure (for example delevel) that is really really detrimental to getting cured right away. Otherwise we have another hate transfer in the group instead of the druid, this way the DPS doesn't have to worry as much about pulling aggro and the healers don't have to heal as much because the mob is dieing faster. Other than that our raid usually has Defiler / Templar in MT group. Druid / Inquis , Druid, Mystic. In the other 3 groups. And sometimes we only bring 1 druid."Three healers in the MT GRP depends on some facotrs:1) Skill of shaman+Cleric2) Tank Gear3) Difficulty of RaidDruids are not essential for most raids however to specifically exclude them would be stupid. You'd be missing out on their strengths...fast heals, int buffs wis buffs, etc. It would not be a balanced raids. Remember that each priest class has strengths and brings something to the table.