Let's un-generalize the str/agi argument.

[Alku]

I don't know the math but I'm sure it's been done before -- I just had no luck digging it up. However, through logical reason I would assume that the str line would benefit a group-oriented player the most whereas the agi line would benefit a raid player the most. Here's the reason... Looking at Catalyst vs. Spellshifting, let's think about how they work out in a group. I believe Spellshifting has very little effect in a group as after one IC/IN, the mob is almost dead. If it's not almost dead, I don't think it is going to be a common occurrence for Spellshifting to be the factor that determines if you get another spell in there. A raid is a different situation -- this is where you have much longer fights and a constant casting time / refresh time reduction comes in very useful as every second that passes, these abilities are benneficial. Looking at Catalyst, it seems to be a perfect fit for the group role since you only use that one big nuke once per fight whereas on raids, you are fighting in what would normally be "downtime between mobs". My argument is that calculating mathematically the sustained dps over the period of a couple minutes or so is doing the calculation for the assumption of a raid, where you could say passive abilities are "going to waste" during downtime in a group.

[Mareth]

With agi line, and 5 points in nova aa, you're a lot more likely to get off 2 nova's per fight though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But you have some very good points, I've had str the last month, and found it very fun in groups. Respecced to agi/wis today, so will see how it turns out.

[simpwrx02]

<p>As far as raiding str can be more benficial to the long fights which are the ones that really matter, since the increased amount of crits is basically free damage.  However if you are talking about just KoS instance raid zones then yes agi/wis will give you higher dps than str/wis due to the fact that almost no fight lasts over 2 minutes.  Enter EoF raid zones with mobs in the 5 million+ range and 5+minute fights and the str/wis will probably overtake the agi/wis specced wizzy as he is not converting health to power.</p><p>As it has been stated on here many times do you want high dps on short fights or do you want high dps on long fights.  By short I mean 1 1/2 - 3 minute fights and long is anythign over 3 minutes ( this is for a casual raider) change 3 minutes to 5 for the hardcore raider with the massive amount of power procing items.</p><p>As far as grouping goes the agi/wis means that ice nova may be useable every fight instead of every other fight and the faster casting is always a bonus get less target is already dead messages, well maybee not but less likely to with your big nukes like ice nova 3.5 cast time instead of 4.</p><p>I still think it is more of a prefernce of the player than anything else there are pros and cons on both sides.. individual play style becomes a factor. Also you cant just compare the final abilities you must look at the line as a whole persoanlyl I think that spellshaping>catalyst, however I think that the 11.9% spell crit will do more damge than the 14.4% faster casting.  However the more crits will also get you aggro faster than the faster casting.  If you want to really mix it up the Sta line gives you 42 disruptin/focus which means you will basically never get a resist in a herioc instance or at least your resist rate will drop down significantly for disruption based spells, and no resists means higher dps.</p>

[daray]

I am AGI/WIS speced and can sustain power/dps for easily over 5 mins - now that you can get sagacity too, this makes a big difference to sustaining your dps for longer. Without going into the maths of it, str line increases your dps by around 5%, whereas the agi line will increase dps by easily over 10% - provided power doesnt become an issue (not to mention you get a smoother hate generation graph with lower spike damage)

[simpwrx02]

<cite>daray wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am AGI/WIS speced and can sustain power/dps for easily over 5 mins - now that you can get sagacity too, this makes a big difference to sustaining your dps for longer. Without going into the maths of it, str line increases your dps by around 4%, whereas the agi line will increase dps by easily over 10% - provided power doesnt become an issue (not to mention you get a smoother hate generation graph with lower spike damage) </blockquote><p> I have no doubt I was able to sustain power/dps as well when I was speced agi/wis pre new AA types on 6-7 minute fights, then again I have maxed out power regen at 113 in my group and an awesome illusionist that knows how to keep a group full of power. At that time I was speced agi 4/4/4/8/8 and wis 4/5/4/8 so no sagicity maintian around 1500 dps on one of the stupid armor sets in MMIS you know the ones with eleventy billion hitpoints, guild first fight took us 7 minutes to kill I did 1500 dps on that fight, I also had time compression on me so I was casting even more and I was using a lot of health to power spells. And yes I do believe a wizzy speced str/wis would have out dpsed me if we had the exact same gear, player talent and buffs.  I am not going to argue with your numbers, but I am sure some one else will, I too beleive that agi/wis does more damage than str/wis with out any power concerns.</p><p>I went back and edited my first post as teh OP seemed to be gearing this discussion more towards group play as opposed to raid play. 2 totally different beasts in ever aspect.</p>

[Force Weaver]

I don't want to double post, but Str/Agi is a wicked Heroic set up.  Catalyst was definately made for the player who groups.

[duuf]

Catalyst can be precast.  With proper timing (and protection ie: amends / moderate)  a catalyst nova followed shortly by a freehand catalyst fusion can put you so far up the dps charts it will make the agi guys cry foul.

[simpwrx02]

<cite>duuf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Catalyst can be precast.  With proper timing (and protection ie: amends / moderate)  a catalyst nova followed shortly by a freehand catalyst fusion can put you so far up the dps charts it will make the agi guys cry foul. </blockquote> You can do this in a herioc instance..... wow, i am not even going to say anything else about that except the recast for catalyst is one minute and that is a huge down time between fights... If I wanted to own the parse on fights once ever 2 minues I that would be great... I personally cast ice nova about 4 out of 5 fights in a herioc instance you may beat me on that one fight.  How ever I will contribute more to the group on every single fight and the zone will take far less time, then I would post the zone wide parse you would have the high hit and I would have the top zone wide dps. If i wanted to own the parse on named fights I would spec manaburn.

[duuf]

Calm down simp the benefits of agi vs str have been argued over and over ad nauseum.  They are both great or there would not be so many defenders for both. My comment was simply to bring out the fact that catalyst can and should be utilized more effectively by precasting before the pull.  The second sentence was intended as humor and certainly was not intended to antagonize any agi junkies. Oh and by the by I'm specced manaburn and its a great tool although somewhat situational. We have had 100k+ hits in our guild raids with it.

[simpwrx02]

<p>Im really not an agi junky in fact as of right now I am specced sta/str which is probably one of the lesser used combos.  I still get around the same output only I do not get resisted only resists I get are from procs including frost spike and a few from incapacitate and sunstrike since both are t6 spells being used on t8 mobs, all of my t7 spells land with 100%....</p><p>I have speced both str/wis and agi/wis both have thier pros and both have thier cons it is really best for each player to decide which he wants as both can make great dps.  Each also uses its own specific casting order and you must get use to a new casting order before you can make a true judgement if you have tried both.  STR/AGI/WIS are all the sorcerer damage increaseing AAs where as sSTA is the survivability increaser and INT makes you no longer a aggro magnet.</p><p> However since the majority of wizards that post on the forums raid it makes it seem like every single wizzy is specced either agi/wis or str/wis as in a raid aggro should be controled very well with hate modifiers in the MT group and hate reducers in the wizzy's group.  In actual herioc instances I think it is really hard to tell a major difference between any of the damage modifer builds other than the fact that going str/wis gives you 2 big next spell modifiers where as wis/agi only gives you one damage modifier, but it refreshes faster along with all of your spells. I personally dropped from agi/wis to sta str and only noticed about maybe a 50-100 dps drop in herioc instances I was agi 4/7/4/8/2 and agi 6/4/4/8/2 and now i am sta 4/8/8/8 and str 4/4/8/5.  Now on raids however I probably dropped 400-600 dps since the fights are longer and honestly resists rarely happen on raid mobs due to all of the debuffs.</p>

[Mareth]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im really not an agi junky in fact as of right now I am specced sta/str which is probably one of the lesser used combos.  I still get around the same output only I do not get resisted only resists I get are from procs including frost spike and a few from incapacitate and sunstrike since both are t6 spells being used on t8 mobs, all of my t7 spells land with 100%....</p></blockquote>The level the spell was scribed on has nothing to say for it's resist chance. This can be easily tested by using a level 12 spell on a random yellow mob, will hit just as well as a T7 equivelant.

[Force Weaver]

Switching from Sta/Agi to Str/Agi I did notice that although my "surging DPS" is much higher I get more resists now that I don't have that +42 disruption.  The big numbers are fun but I seem to be wasting more mana with the resists that keep popping up on yellows now.  Not to mention the mender is glad I have switched to Str/Agi from Sta/Agi.

[simpwrx02]

<cite>Mareth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im really not an agi junky in fact as of right now I am specced sta/str which is probably one of the lesser used combos.  I still get around the same output only I do not get resisted only resists I get are from procs including frost spike and a few from incapacitate and sunstrike since both are t6 spells being used on t8 mobs, all of my t7 spells land with 100%....</p></blockquote>The level the spell was scribed on has nothing to say for it's resist chance. This can be easily tested by using a level 12 spell on a random yellow mob, will hit just as well as a T7 equivelant. </blockquote> If I could bet you money I would, that you are wrong.  Use the lvl 16 equivalent of incapacitate I am sure you get tons of resists, I cant remember the name of the spell but use it and come back with your results. Tell me why than that ball of lava a lvl 65 spell landed 129/129 times in a zone and sunstrike landed 55/58 times in the same zone, and firestorm landed 150/150 times in fact all of my t7 spells landed 100% of the time with the exception of Ice Shield as it does not take casting skills into account, but all of my t6 spells got some resists this is a fact not some ones opnion.  My disruption didnt just drop by 60 points for those spells then jump back up a second later.  Why dont you test your idea before you come posting "facts".

[Mareth]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mareth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im really not an agi junky in fact as of right now I am specced sta/str which is probably one of the lesser used combos.  I still get around the same output only I do not get resisted only resists I get are from procs including frost spike and a few from incapacitate and sunstrike since both are t6 spells being used on t8 mobs, all of my t7 spells land with 100%....</p></blockquote>The level the spell was scribed on has nothing to say for it's resist chance. This can be easily tested by using a level 12 spell on a random yellow mob, will hit just as well as a T7 equivelant. </blockquote> If I could bet you money I would, that you are wrong.  Use the lvl 16 equivalent of incapacitate I am sure you get tons of resists, I cant remember the name of the spell but use it and come back with your results. Tell me why than that ball of lava a lvl 65 spell landed 129/129 times in a zone and sunstrike landed 55/58 times in the same zone, and firestorm landed 150/150 times in fact all of my t7 spells landed 100% of the time with the exception of Ice Shield as it does not take casting skills into account, but all of my t6 spells got some resists this is a fact not some ones opnion.  My disruption didnt just drop by 60 points for those spells then jump back up a second later.  Why dont you test your idea before you come posting "facts".</blockquote>I already have tested it. And the incapacitate line is one of those that actually states in the description that it has a level cap, so that's spell line is obviously an exception from this.

[simpwrx02]

<cite>Mareth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mareth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im really not an agi junky in fact as of right now I am specced sta/str which is probably one of the lesser used combos.  I still get around the same output only I do not get resisted only resists I get are from procs including frost spike and a few from incapacitate and sunstrike since both are t6 spells being used on t8 mobs, all of my t7 spells land with 100%....</p></blockquote>The level the spell was scribed on has nothing to say for it's resist chance. This can be easily tested by using a level 12 spell on a random yellow mob, will hit just as well as a T7 equivelant. </blockquote> If I could bet you money I would, that you are wrong.  Use the lvl 16 equivalent of incapacitate I am sure you get tons of resists, I cant remember the name of the spell but use it and come back with your results. Tell me why than that ball of lava a lvl 65 spell landed 129/129 times in a zone and sunstrike landed 55/58 times in the same zone, and firestorm landed 150/150 times in fact all of my t7 spells landed 100% of the time with the exception of Ice Shield as it does not take casting skills into account, but all of my t6 spells got some resists this is a fact not some ones opnion.  My disruption didnt just drop by 60 points for those spells then jump back up a second later.  Why dont you test your idea before you come posting "facts".</blockquote>I already have tested it. And the incapacitate line is one of those that actually states in the description that it has a level cap, so that's spell line is obviously an exception from this. </blockquote>So why did you leave this point out earlier.  I do not appreicate you ruse.  SO if it affects one spell line, then why wouldnt it affect all spell lines, maybee the coder who makes the subjagation based spell lines decided to add that where as the coder who made the disruption based spell line did not feel the need to add it as he assumed that everyone would upgrade thier spells when possible.  Since I have found that my main resists come from t6 spells I theorize that spell level to mob level makes a difference in resistability.

[Alku]

Simp, read the spell's description. It is clearly stated that resistability increases against creatures higher than XX level. Mob level to your level matters; not mob level to spell level. The easiest way to prove this is to take a T1 spell and nuke T5 creatures -- according to your "theory" this would get resists... I guarantee it will be just as rare as an Ice Nova resist... just make sure they have the same resistability % in the spell info. Back on topic please, or start a new thread to debate false claims <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Is it pretty commonly agree'd then that str/wis tops the group dps while agi/wis tops the raid dps (debatable)? One, more thing Simp... "wow, i am not even going to say anything else about that except the recast for catalyst is one minute" That was his point. Catalyst's recast timer starts when you cast it -- yet the buff itself lasts 1 minute, which is the same as the recast. This allows you to potentially have two consecutive fires of catalyst. With good timing and practice, this is great for heroic groups and "im not even going to say anything else about that".

[simpwrx02]

<p>I have played with catalyst many times and found that on an undebuffed mob ice nova will do exactly max damage +1 80% of the time, now if you debuff then use catalyst it will be hitting  for considerable more damage which is why precasting catalyst is not that great. </p><p>Let us look more into precasting catalyst.... okay previous fight ends  you precast catalyst... how long do you wait to pull the next mob so you can get 2 catalysts attacks in one fight.  I dont know about you but most of the fights I am in only last maybe 30 seconds and a few of the high hit point mobs in unrest maybe 45 seconds.  Sure you can precast catalyst but it will do crap for damage. From my own experiences even in pickup groups no body want to wait that long to pull any mob... the only exception I have seen is waiting for manaburn to refresh as it basically takes half of a mobs life with one spell thus makeing the fight much easier.  </p><p>Honestly I have yet to see any one speced str/wis out dps me in herioc instances I am once again specced agi/wis and will pull 1300+ dps in instances.  I doubt any one on my server can match that if we are in the exact same group with the exact same buffs specced for str/wis, I am on Blackburrow server.  So I will say that max dps is from agi/wis, however most of your dps will come from playstyle aka spell order .  I will aggre that str/wis can get bigger hits more aggro and still die more, but agi/wis will be smoother less aggro and higher dps in instances as well as raids.  This discussion honestly has been done hundreds of times before and since every one plays different it will be impossible to say which is better.... sure you might be able to cast 2 catalsyst in one fight, but in that same fight I will get off way more spells than you.  And the ability to cast ice nova every single fight will make my dps higher as you will be casting it every other fight. </p><p>And for Alkure who wrote about the resistablity listed on spells that it states that resistability increases against creatures higher than XX level..... okay so the same spell line as the spell level gets higher the XX from before also gets higher so it appears as if that is based off of spell level not your level, for if it was based off of your level then if you looked at flame chamber it should list the exact same level of resistability as incapacitate.  But since it dosenot that means that spell level affects resistability at least for that spell line, and I highly doubt that SoE would create a special spell mechanic for just one spell line.</p><p>And for the double catalyst coment.... so this mean that you did not use catalyst the previous fight and that the grouip must wait at least 30 seconds, but closer to 45 seconds to pull the next mob in order to do this... then if you want to do it in back to back fights you have to wait the full minute to recast it again for the next fight and then the 30-45 seconds to be able to cast it twice... so this would mean waiting 1.5 minutes between pulls.  I dont know what groups you get but every single group I get like to pull as fast as you can..... think about a zone like unrest where zone wide there will be roughly 250 fight figure 30 seconds per fight and 1.5 minutes between fights or roughly 2 minutes per fight.... 250 fights or 500 minutes I dont know about you but taking over 8 hours for a zone is a bit long when it can be finished in around 2 hours.</p>

[Alku]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote> But since it dosenot that means that spell level affects resistability at least for that spell line, and I highly doubt that SoE would create a special spell mechanic for just one spell line.</blockquote> You're right, it's not just one spell line. Many classes have a line or two that have this effect, and yes, it is a mechanic specific to these lines... otherwise it would be explicitly stated on every other spell as well, just like these. You do have a point about the debuffing with precasting issue though.

[duuf]

Simp you need to change from attack mode or all you get is an /ignore from me.  Try asking how someone does something instead of dissing it. As to your treatise about precasting and resists some facts for you to further hone your attack skills on and earn an /ignore .... or to learn from and discuss, your choice.  These of course are my understandings and I welcome clarification / constructive comments. Catalyst crits damage values are a result of the RNG and in the case of Nova approximately 50% of crits will be max + 1.  Whether a mob is debuffed or not only affects only the total damage not the crit max +1 chance. Crits at max +1 = a good thing because the increase in damage is more than 30%. Precast catalyst does not = no debuffs.  During the time the tank is gaining agro control debuffs are being applied.  I fire it on the dispatch call from the brigand which comes almost immediately after the MA engages.  My brigand can apply all 3 of his major debuffs in the time it takes to cast Nova. My precast catalyst - freehand nova in raids usually hits from 17 to 24k with a high so far of 33k My Ice Nova currently is 4.5 sec to fire, 37 seconds to refresh.  If I took agi these numbers would change to approximately 3.9 and 33 for a total "savings" of 4.6 seconds.  Maybe you can explain how that equals 1 per encounter for Agi, 1 for every other encounter for Str. The only part of Agi that increases the number of spells fired is Spellshaping which according to my analysis give about a 11.6% decrease in casting times.  That does not equal way more spells to me. Alkure is bang on about resists.  Its the very reason my Coercer is running around with a low level M1 charm because it is resisted and breaks much less than the Adept3 later version. My precast catalyst is part of my personal strategy and has never determined raid/group strategy.  It is cast during the regen/rez/afk/ld cycle between encounters, when and if its up.  If anything it shortens the instance from the extra damage from the strategy. If you have any questions on the above feel free to ask but refrain from attack mode.

[SacDaddy420]

  ATTACK MODE /ON!!!!!!    naw  j/k    anyways, I'm currently in phase 2 of my personal re-analysis of our Sorcerer AA setups.  I'm giving agi/wis  and str/agi  each one week (+/- 7 raid zones)   I allready know Str/Wis  inside and out.  I'm on the agi/wis setup now, with about 4 raids so far on it.   Well, what can I say so far?  I've noticed a much smoother aggro line with my current build.   I dont always get a trouby, but he does log in for the EoF zones.   I didnt rip at all in any of the KoS zones, which a cata/fs Fusion most always did.   Also, my dps seems to be rather stable  (not moving far from the 1800 range, only synergism).  I can see how some wizzies like this setup, personally unless str/agi just blows my mind i'll prolly go back to str/wis.    Really have to bump the crit chance I'm thinkin for str/agi.   I wish i had the 5 piece bonus.  But with the crit boots, the crit wrist, MoA, Novum Tectum, crit adornments on my primary, secondary, and ranged, the crit AA pet, potions, Str AA line and (hopefully)  a reliable troub  I may be able to raise the chance high enough to overcome Brainstorm.   I need that Blue Mote of magic from teh castle ><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   We'll see...

[Noaani]

simpwrx02 wrote: <blockquote>And for Alkure who wrote about the resistablity listed on spells that it states that resistability increases against creatures higher than XX level..... okay so the same spell line as the spell level gets higher the XX from before also gets higher so it appears as if that is based off of spell level not your level, for if it was based off of your level then if you looked at flame chamber it should list the exact same level of resistability as incapacitate.  But since it dosenot that means that spell level affects resistability at least for that spell line, and I highly doubt that SoE would create a special spell mechanic for just one spell line.</blockquote><p>Incapacitate, Fusion, Cease, both roots, Numbing Cold and our mezz spell lines all have this in their description. it is on almost every spell line that has a crowd control effect on it (I am rather supprised it is not on Surging Tempest or Ice Comet/Nova). However, if you cast Lightning Burst on a raid, alternating with Sunstrike, they should have the same hit % (give or take a small amount, and assuming they are both the same spell quality), as this spell line is not affected by mob/spell level at all.</p><p>Sac: I'm rather looking forward to seeing how those three setups work out for you. I am playing with Str/Agi now, but due to the randomness of my guild (may have a troubador, fury and illusionist for a zone one week, and a ranger to buff me the next), and the fact that I can only raid 3 times a week atm, I am having trouble really being able to see the benifits/drawbacks of each build, and its taking me a month or so to get a clear picture of each. I have done Str/Wis to death in KoS, and know that setup inside out, but I am now firmly of the opinion that Agi is the best line (partially due to the change with procs), and am playing with it and str and wis. </p>

[SacDaddy420]

what i prolly need to do is look at a parse from this week, then import a parse from a month ago and compare proc times.   since my core group is shaping up to always be online  (halleluhah) the group setup should be close.  just have to make sure troub buffs are shown in both sets.      I think i'll do that in the morning

[ailees]

<cite>SacDaddy420 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I allready know Str/Wis  inside and out.  I'm on the agi/wis setup now, with about 4 raids so far on it.   I've noticed a much smoother aggro line with my current build.   I dont always get a trouby, </blockquote>That's my point also. When I have both a troub and a pally, I have no problem. But for 90% of the raids, I only have one with me, (and sometimes none) and the smooth way is better for my life and average DPS. Yesterday we were only 3 groups (with some level 60-65 alts), and decided to go back to labs ! I made a comparison with the last raid in here that I parsed and saved on excel. Last one was in December, with old AA (strengh / wisdom) and, of course, no wizard ones but pally and troub. yesterday a troub, and testing manastorm. I could manage to be first DPS in raid. I died 4 times only, I remember perfectly that this was not possible with the crit line : with a troub only, no way to cast Ice Nova (+catalyst) at the beginning  and survive. Worse of course with fusion. Yesterday, I could cast manaburn 11 times and did not get aggro once. Of course I don't start with manaburn, would be a waste. The thing I'm not sure, comparing other excel files, is the increase DPS from moving from cold line to manaburn. But a 40/50K hit (no brigand, sorry) is so fun <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[simpwrx02]

<p>Okay sorry if I was in attack mode earlier.  I how ever thought that this disscusion was based more on group play than raid play. I was trying to steer my posts more towards that asspect, how ever every one seems to want to go to raid play.  </p><p>As far as precasting catalyst yes if you have some one else in the group that can debuff heat/cold and you know it will be debuffed, then by all means precast it, unfortunately I am normally the only debuffer of heat/cold in my group.  My main point is that a debuffed mob with either cataylst or freehand ice nova will hit for significantly more damage.  Once agian this is centered around group play,  as per the OP saying that Str/wis is the best set up for groups.  I also think he is refering to a normal group of players not a fully fabled/mastered tank who is almost impossible to steal aggro from,  Personally when I do herioc instances with my guild's raid tank, it is almost impossible for me to steal aggro he just makes so much hate.  I am not trying to hate at all here, but I would be highly amazed if many tanks at all could hold aggro from a cataylst ice nova as your first spell except in a raid setup.  </p><p>As far as my personal play style goes I like to precast Ice Shield on the tank before ever single fight, i guess I should have mentioned this earlier as it would have helped in me explaining why I dont think that precasting catalyst will net max damage.  I feel that the damage from precasting Ice shield will be more than precasting catlyst at least for herioc content, raids would be a much more interesting comparrison.  For me precast Ice Shield will net between 3500-5000 depending on crits and what not then I debuff, put on 2 more dots cast ball of lava, then freehand icenova which normally lands for 12,000 on average ( adept 3), I will steal aggro half of the time here, but since the mob is stuned I cast incapacitate to further stun the mob in hopes of it dying before it hits me this is for most herioc instance trash mobs. And this will net me between 1400-2200 dps depending on the RNG for each fight. </p><p>This is my play style I also enjoy the faster casting in a raid as well as I have 8 procs on my gear, 2 of which are for deaggro, and the more I can cast the more dehate I will generate and the less likely I am to steal aggro.  Agi/Wis is my preference in DPS AA setup as I raid more it fits my play style, I do however respect the dps people can put out with the Str/Wis setup as well in a raid setup, both can be very effective. Honestly however if I did not raid I would go with a sta/str set up for max survivability and less resists, I say str over wis since I like the 8% parry over the 354 ward.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

  Well anyway since i've finished my hands on trail of all 3 setups and at least one person was interested, I'll drop a quick recap of what i discovered.   I'm not gonna fill this post with numbers.   There's no doubt in my mind you all know what i mean when I say something just "feels right"    STR/WIS ~~~  I grew up on this setup.  Catalyst/FS has become second nature to me.  Since I spend my time 50/50  in groups and raids, I can appreciate that this is the dominant setup for groups.  No question.   And against epics, with proper hate mitigation (I form the raids myself) the spike damage of this spec can easily be nullified.   WIS/AGI~~~~  Also a good choice.  Does not need near the support from other classes as STR does.  Dmg proc'n gear is very important to take full effect of this spec.  With at least 5 peices of proc'n gear on, my parses were very close to where I had always been with STR.  On 5 minute + encounters, I found this to pull ahead of STR.  But under that, as in most trash encounters, I really felt myself missing my catalyst.   STR/AGI~~~  The red herring.  I did give this spec a chance.   To try and counter the loss of Brainstorming, I had the Wand of Crystallized Plasma.   And I bumped my crit chance up to near 35%.  However, I found my parses to be about 300 dps lower on each encounter.  With the faster casting, and a crit chance closer to 50% (needed to 5 piece bonus, Blu mote of Magic) I still believe this spec has promise.  But I did not get that "feeling" about it the way I am now.   That flat +8% to every spell is just too important IMO.    I'm back to str/wis  now      <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ailees]

I agree with you, and that's why I'm on wisdom/agility. Because I raid 90% of my time, and I'm very often with only one protector, or worse with none ! and THAT is the point that makes my DPS vary. I died too much with strength line.

[Noaani]

<p>Think I'll have to give Agi/Wis a go after reading that now too.</p><p>My guild can be excessivly random, and so having a build where I am not reliant too much on support classes could only be a good thing.</p><p>Need to try and get a few more proc'ing items too, but I already knew that.</p>

[Zoie]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread.  I have gone out and tried each of the 3 specs and here is what I have observed.  Our typical raid setup is troub, illusionist, fury, pally, wizzie, necro.  I don't get amends from the pally (or I'll kill the pally) but I do get the hate reduction spell from the coercer in the MT group.  I also get the fury's intel buff.  I find that with str/wis I die more due to aggro spikes associated with catalyst/freehand combo.  The agi/wis combo was actually really nice as far as staying off of aggro charts because there were no crit spikes.  But I find I do more dps with the str/agi combo.  And my dps is more consistent overall, pull after pull, where if we're pulling trash fast, freehand might not be up every single pull.  Honestly though, I've noticed about 300 more dps per fight with this spec.  I was really kind of shocked because I tried it on a whim after reading this thread.  But where I used to be top 4 usually on raid parses, now I show up top 1 or 2 more often than not.

[SacDaddy420]

  Illusive,   missed ya dude. So str/agi is working out for ya eh?   I'd have to say I disagree, but either way it's good to see you back.