Can We Get A Definitive Answer On Max Difference in Group Level?

[Ponos]

<p>I've done a search for this on the forums and found different answers.</p><p>I've asked around in the in-game chat channels and have gotten different replies.</p><p>I've asked members in groups, and no one seems to know.  </p><p>So here it is....</p><p>What is the max difference in levels between group members before the lowest level member no longer gets XP or quest updates/credit?</p><p>Does the max number change at all based on tiers?  Or is it a constant number, like, say...10.</p><p>Thanks in advance for your reply!</p><p>P.S. Please only answer if you KNOW FOR CERTAIN.  The last thing we need is to perpetuate the misinformation.</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>Ponos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I've done a search for this on the forums and found different answers.</p><p>I've asked around in the in-game chat channels and have gotten different replies.</p><p>I've asked members in groups, and no one seems to know.  </p><p>So here it is....</p><p>What is the max difference in levels between group members before the lowest level member no longer gets XP or quest updates/credit?</p><p>Does the max number change at all based on tiers?  Or is it a constant number, like, say...10.</p><p>Thanks in advance for your reply!</p><p>P.S. Please only answer if you KNOW FOR CERTAIN.  The last thing we need is to perpetuate the misinformation.</p></blockquote>It is 25% of the max lvl. If the high roller is lvl 40, he can group with lvl 30ies. If he's 50, its 12 lvls. The lower lvl cap is 6, so even if you are lvl 10, the 25% rule does not apply (Since that would be 2 lvls which is very unfun) so its 6 lvls.

[Ilirith]

erm, wouldnt that mean that a level 70 could group with level 53 then? since 25% of 70 is 17.5, or do it cap at 15 levels difference? //Elimia

[Norrsken]

Elimia@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>erm, wouldnt that mean that a level 70 could group with level 53 then? since 25% of 70 is 17.5, or do it cap at 15 levels difference? //Elimia </blockquote>yup. not sure if it caps at a specific max range though, but that cap is far greater than what people usually group within anyways. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Bringing a lvl 70 to a lvl 53 group would prolly gray out most interresting content to the 53s.

[Ilirith]

Aye, but i am 99% sure that you dont get exp being 53/54 grouping with 70's, so i think it would cap at 15 ^^ Other than that, i  like your explenation, ive been wondering about it for quite some time just finding out the limit by the good ole' Trial and Error <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> //Elimia

[Pendant]

<p>To the OP: there's a simple answer to your dilemma.</p><p>If everyone mentors the little guy in the group, everyone gets XP, everyone gets quest updates, nobody has to waste playtime faffing about with number calculations (and recalculations when someone leaves the group or you move into a different area).</p><p>Try it.</p>

[Norrsken]

Elimia@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>Aye, but i am 99% sure that you dont get exp being 53/54 grouping with 70's, so i think it would cap at 15 ^^ Other than that, i  like your explenation, ive been wondering about it for quite some time just finding out the limit by the good ole' Trial and Error <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> //Elimia </blockquote>Glad I could help. And if you wanna figure it out from the other end, say, you are a lvl 30 wanting to find out whats the max you can group with, multiply your level with 1.3. (actually, it would be 1 1/3) and come up with the number 40. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ponos]

<cite>Pendant wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To the OP: there's a simple answer to your dilemma.</p><p>If everyone mentors the little guy in the group, everyone gets XP, everyone gets quest updates, nobody has to waste playtime faffing about with number calculations (and recalculations when someone leaves the group or you move into a different area).</p><p>Try it.</p></blockquote><p> I can think of a hundred different reasons why this is a bad idea, Pendant.  But I will settle for only one:</p><p>It eliminates the application, understanding, and benefits of a gameplay mechanic.  Namely, grouping with players of multiple levels that fall within a certain predetermined level bracket so as to maximize group effectiveness toward an agreed upon goal.</p><p>That's like saying, I don't really know how to play chess, so instead of actually learning, I'm just going to move my pawns.  </p><p>Lazy thinking will never produce "simple" answers.</p><p>And to the others who actually addressed the query directly and provided helpful information and explanation -- I salute you!</p>

[Pendant]

<cite>Ponos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pendant wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To the OP: there's a simple answer to your dilemma.</p><p>If everyone mentors the little guy in the group, everyone gets XP, everyone gets quest updates, nobody has to waste playtime faffing about with number calculations (and recalculations when someone leaves the group or you move into a different area).</p><p>Try it.</p></blockquote><p> I can think of a hundred different reasons why this is a bad idea, Pendant.  But I will settle for only one:</p><p>It eliminates the application, understanding, and benefits of a gameplay mechanic.  Namely, grouping with players of multiple levels that fall within a certain predetermined level bracket so as to maximize group effectiveness toward an agreed upon goal.</p><p>That's like saying, I don't really know how to play chess, so instead of actually learning, I'm just going to move my pawns.  </p><p>Lazy thinking will never produce "simple" answers.</p><p>And to the others who actually addressed the query directly and provided helpful information and explanation -- I salute you!</p></blockquote><p>'Lazy thinking'? I promise you that I have not been lazy in thinking about mentoring. <a href="http://lonewolf.everquest2guilds.com/en/twopage.vm?columnId=81048" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Take a look here for instance</a>.</p><p>I like the concept of KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid.</p><p>Your opinion clearly differs from mine in your choice of how to play this game - and you're entitled to your opinion. You have chosen to 'apply, understand and employ the benefits of one gameplay mechanic': I have simply chosen an alternative gameplay mechanism to achieve the same end - I would argue that my solution is the more elegant one. I am interested in hearing your 'hundred reasons why it's a bad idea'. Seriously.</p><p>I would suggest that this thread itself demonstrates which of these two approaches is simpler to utilise: having read through it, I am none the wiser regarding the post topic, and as for myself, I want to play the game and smell the roses, not have to keep looking at all the numbers.</p>

[Ponos]

<p>Okay, here's one example where mentoring the lowest guy simply would not have worked:</p><p>Yesterday, as a level 26 berserker, I completed the HQ -- Dragoon K'Naee of the Thexians (approximate title).  </p><p>This was a level 30 heroic quest, yet the reward was a level 27 item.</p><p>The second to last step had me killing 3 waves of level 29-30^^^ undead before spawning Captain T'Sanne, a mean level 30^^^ named mob.</p><p>I had to get help and was able to form a full party that consisted of:</p><p>1 level 26 (me)</p><p>1 level 38</p><p>2 level 70s</p><p>1 level 34</p><p>1 level 52</p><p>At first glance, you would think all 5 players were out of my XP level range.  But if I apply the 25% max level formula, we see that I just make it under the wire (level 25.5 is the cut-off) if everyone mentors the Level 34.</p><p>If everyone just mentored me, the problem would be two-fold:</p><p>1) Would make killing the placeholders take that much longer</p><p>2) We would not have been able to kill the 3 heroic waves AND Captain T'Sanne.</p><p>So tell me, would you just apply your "simple and elegant" and completely ineffective solution of everyone mentoring me, or would you actually try to complete the quest?</p>

[Pendant]

<cite>Ponos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Okay, here's one example where mentoring the lowest guy simply would not have worked:</p><p>Yesterday, as a level 26 berserker, I completed the HQ -- Dragoon K'Naee of the Thexians (approximate title).  </p><p>This was a level 30 heroic quest, yet the reward was a level 27 item.</p><p>The second to last step had me killing 3 waves of level 29-30^^^ undead before spawning Captain T'Sanne, a mean level 30^^^ named mob.</p><p>I had to get help and was able to form a full party that consisted of:</p><p>1 level 26 (me)</p><p>1 level 38</p><p>2 level 70s</p><p>1 level 34</p><p>1 level 52</p><p>At first glance, you would think all 5 players were out of my XP level range.  But if I apply the 25% max level formula, we see that I just make it under the wire (level 25.5 is the cut-off) if everyone mentors the Level 34.</p><p>If everyone just mentored me, the problem would be two-fold:</p><p>1) Would make killing the placeholders take that much longer</p><p>2) We would not have been able to kill the 3 heroic waves AND Captain T'Sanne.</p><p>So tell me, would you just apply your "simple and elegant" and completely ineffective solution of everyone mentoring me, or would you actually try to complete the quest?</p></blockquote><p>I would actually try to complete the quest. You claim that my solution is 'completely ineffective': however, you didn't even try. </p><p>I think, had you tried, you would have found that with the mix you had, the encounter would have been both achievable AND fun. No, I cannot guarantee you would have won. But, had you tried and failed, you would still have the option of trying again at level 34.</p><p>Your solution risks the possibility that the apprentice might have levelled to 35 during the encounter - I can't be bothered (your 'lazy thinking' at play) to work out whether this would mean that your '25% rule' would have meant that you would not have got credit had this happened. If it had, you would have been a little bit sick, I would imagine.</p><p>The crux here is that you're not interested in trying, you're not interested in the possibility of failing, you don't want to wait till you're a couple of levels higher if you simply can't do it at level 26: you want a GUARANTEED WIN. And you want it QUICKLY.</p><p>To continue your chess analogy: you want to play with the enemy handicapped by having no queen <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p></p><p>I couldn't find a calculator so I did it longhand. By my calculations, had your 'apprentice' levelled to 35, you would have had, by your '25% rule' (assuming that I understand it correctly) a 'cut-off' of 26.25. Had this happened just before you engaged Capatin T'Sanne you would have had to yell off the encounter (assuming that you noticed the ding) and had to re-think or <b>you would not have got credit</b>.</p><p>Unless my understanding of your 'cut-off' is incorrect. What are the effects of rounding fractions in your 'non-lazy-thinking' formula?</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Compare your solution with my solution: with no less than five mentors on your side, your level 26 character might have levelled to level 27 while battling the placeholders. Which would have meant that the entire group would engage Captain T'Sanne at level 27 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>The last time I was near Captain T'Sanne I recall seeing some heroic mobs outside the um... what'sthenameoftheplaceIforget. If you were too scared to engage T'Sanne at level 26, an option would have been to battle some of those till you (and the group) dinged 27. Depending on who you had with you, if they were decent folks I betcha at 27 T'Sanne would have been a walkover, given that you had two level 70s in your group - the scaling effects of mentoring make higher levels MUCH more powerful than an equivalent character of that 'natural' level.</p><p></p>

[Adrinanna]

15 levels does appear to be max. A 70 can group with a 55 and provide the 55 with exp.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Pendant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ponos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Okay, here's one example where mentoring the lowest guy simply would not have worked:</p><p>Yesterday, as a level 26 berserker, I completed the HQ -- Dragoon K'Naee of the Thexians (approximate title).  </p><p>This was a level 30 heroic quest, yet the reward was a level 27 item.</p><p>The second to last step had me killing 3 waves of level 29-30^^^ undead before spawning Captain T'Sanne, a mean level 30^^^ named mob.</p><p>I had to get help and was able to form a full party that consisted of:</p><p>1 level 26 (me)</p><p>1 level 38</p><p>2 level 70s</p><p>1 level 34</p><p>1 level 52</p><p>At first glance, you would think all 5 players were out of my XP level range.  But if I apply the 25% max level formula, we see that I just make it under the wire (level 25.5 is the cut-off) if everyone mentors the Level 34.</p><p>If everyone just mentored me, the problem would be two-fold:</p><p>1) Would make killing the placeholders take that much longer</p><p>2) We would not have been able to kill the 3 heroic waves AND Captain T'Sanne.</p><p>So tell me, would you just apply your "simple and elegant" and completely ineffective solution of everyone mentoring me, or would you actually try to complete the quest?</p></blockquote><p>I would actually try to complete the quest. You claim that my solution is 'completely ineffective': however, you didn't even try. </p><p>I think, had you tried, you would have found that with the mix you had, the encounter would have been both achievable AND fun. No, I cannot guarantee you would have won. But, had you tried and failed, you would still have the option of trying again at level 34.</p><p>Your solution risks the possibility that the apprentice might have levelled to 35 during the encounter - I can't be bothered (your 'lazy thinking' at play) to work out whether this would mean that your '25% rule' would have meant that you would not have got credit had this happened. If it had, you would have been a little bit sick, I would imagine.</p><p>The crux here is that you're not interested in trying, you're not interested in the possibility of failing, you don't want to wait till you're a couple of levels higher if you simply can't do it at level 26: you want a GUARANTEED WIN. And you want it QUICKLY.</p><p>To continue your chess analogy: you want to play with the enemy handicapped by having no queen <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p></p><p>I couldn't find a calculator so I did it longhand. By my calculations, had your 'apprentice' levelled to 35, you would have had, by your '25% rule' (assuming that I understand it correctly) a 'cut-off' of 26.25. Had this happened just before you engaged Capatin T'Sanne you would have had to yell off the encounter (assuming that you noticed the ding) and had to re-think or <b>you would not have got credit</b>.</p><p>Unless my understanding of your 'cut-off' is incorrect. What are the effects of rounding fractions in your 'non-lazy-thinking' formula?</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Compare your solution with my solution: with no less than five mentors on your side, your level 26 character might have levelled to level 27 while battling the placeholders. Which would have meant that the entire group would engage Captain T'Sanne at level 27 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>The last time I was near Captain T'Sanne I recall seeing some heroic mobs outside the um... what'sthenameoftheplaceIforget. If you were too scared to engage T'Sanne at level 26, an option would have been to battle some of those till you (and the group) dinged 27. Depending on who you had with you, if they were decent folks I betcha at 27 T'Sanne would have been a walkover, given that you had two level 70s in your group - the scaling effects of mentoring make higher levels MUCH more powerful than an equivalent character of that 'natural' level.</p><p></p></blockquote>Not to mention we fourmanned T'Sanne today. 2 lvl 25, 1 lvl 27 and 1 lvl 28. Its not a terribly hard encounter really. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Healer and tank were 25, 27 warlock and 28 necro. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Pendant]

Bolinda@Guk wrote: <blockquote>15 levels does appear to be max. A 70 can group with a 55 and provide the 55 with exp.</blockquote><p>I don't doubt that this is true. But does the 55 experience any grey aggro? Things change, I mentor all the time in order to eliminate grey aggro from the equation.</p><p>But IIRC mobs at 45 would still con green to a level 55 - whereas to a level 70 they most definitely con grey.</p><p>So the level 70 rushes past the grey stuff, the level 55 gets grey aggro and has to train it or fight it - and if fighting it, then this situation not only does NOT 'provide the 55 with exp', it denies the 55 of exp he or she would otherwise get.</p>

[Iseabeil]

<cite>Pendant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bolinda@Guk wrote: <blockquote>15 levels does appear to be max. A 70 can group with a 55 and provide the 55 with exp.</blockquote><p>I don't doubt that this is true. But does the 55 experience any grey aggro? Things change, I mentor all the time in order to eliminate grey aggro from the equation.</p><p>But IIRC mobs at 45 would still con green to a level 55 - whereas to a level 70 they most definitely con grey.</p><p>So the level 70 rushes past the grey stuff, the level 55 gets grey aggro and has to train it or fight it - and if fighting it, then this situation not only does NOT 'provide the 55 with exp', it denies the 55 of exp he or she would otherwise get.</p></blockquote><p> 25% or 15 levels (depends on what levels its at, the 15 levels comes into play at high levels only) is the formula for getting exp of non grey mobs. As for the grey agro, it has no bearing on this, the same would happen if say a lvl 53 and a lvl 55 is grouped and runs past an agro level 43 mob, that mechanic has nothin to do with with gettin exp limits but relates to totally different things.</p>

[RipFlex]

<p>25% or 15 levels.  The 15 level cap at 70th level where 55th level the minimum level one can group with before mentoring.</p>

[KGr]

Bolinda@Guk wrote: <blockquote>15 levels does appear to be max. A 70 can group with a 55 and provide the 55 with exp.</blockquote> This is correct.  My level 70 character can group with my level 55 character (on my second account) and the lower character does get XP.

[KGr]

<p>I think there are three checks in the "experience" algorithm.</p><p>1) The base check is to see if the lowest character level falls within the 25% (?) threshhold although I'm not sure if the percentage/level is truncated or rounded.</p><p> 2) An exception to this allows any character within five (?) levels to group regardless of the percentage difference (I thought I read the minimum was five but someone might know something contrary); thus, a level six character could always group with a level eleven character even though the difference is much greater than 25 percent.</p><p> 3) An exception to this caps the maximum number of levels between characters at 15 levels.</p>

[EtoilePirate]

The rule, as I know it, is that you can group within +/- six levels of your own or within that 25% threshhold, whichever is greater, so long as the difference does not exceed 15 levels. And, really, that's it (at least until such time in the strange and nebulous future at which we increase to level 80, but we don't have to worry about that yet, hehe).  It can be helpful to remember some of the "magic numbers," too.  38 is the level at which you can first group with 50s.  55 is the level at which you can first group with 70s.

[rollando]

<p> The highest level one can group with at level N is min ( N + 15 , max ( N + 6 , floor ( 4/3 * N ) ).</p><p>  Easy <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Pendant]

Tifs@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote><p> The highest level one can group with at level N is min ( N + 15 , max ( N + 6 , floor ( 4/3 * N ) ).</p><p>  Easy <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote><p>The highest level one can group with if everyone mentors the little guy is (currently) 70.</p><p>Easier <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Arphenion]

Not to dig up an old post, was simply coming here for information, but I felt I had to say this.  Mentoring the lowest/second lowest and so on until you get a combo that works or forces the low player to drop may work for small groups, but in a raid situation you need to know this if you have a broad spectrum of players.  If you have a level 50 zone you would like to raid, paying attention to the level difference formula is critical if you want to do a x4 raid with less than 4 groups.  I like to mentor and I think its a good game mechanic for the small stuff, but don't descredit the value of a post like this explaining a different game mechanic because your play style doesn't mess with that of the OP.

[Noaani]

<p>From level 10 - 50 there is a simple formula of 3/4 of the highest persons level is the lowest anyone can be in order to gain XP.</p><p>Once you get above level 50, the level range caps out at 15 levels.</p><p>But since this has been said several times in this thread, is several different manners, why am I bothering to state it again?</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>From level 10 - 50 there is a simple formula of 3/4 of the highest persons level is the lowest anyone can be in order to gain XP.</p><p>Once you get above level 50, the level range caps out at 15 levels.</p><p>But since this has been said several times in this thread, is several different manners, why am I bothering to state it again?</p></blockquote>There is also a lower end cap of 6 lvls, so the 3/4 of the highest is only true between lvl 26 and 60.Below 26, its 6 levels regardless, and above 60, its 15 levels regardless...

[Leatherneck]

<cite>Ponos@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Okay, here's one example where mentoring the lowest guy simply would not have worked:</p><p>Yesterday, as a level 26 berserker, I completed the HQ -- Dragoon K'Naee of the Thexians (approximate title).  </p><p>This was a level 30 heroic quest, yet the reward was a level 27 item.</p><p>The second to last step had me killing 3 waves of level 29-30^^^ undead before spawning Captain T'Sanne, a mean level 30^^^ named mob.</p><p>I had to get help and was able to form a full party that consisted of:</p><p>1 level 26 (me)</p><p>1 level 38</p><p>2 level 70s</p><p>1 level 34</p><p>1 level 52</p><p>At first glance, you would think all 5 players were out of my XP level range.  But if I apply the 25% max level formula, we see that I just make it under the wire (level 25.5 is the cut-off) if everyone mentors the Level 34.</p><p>If everyone just mentored me, the problem would be two-fold:</p><p>1) Would make killing the placeholders take that much longer</p><p>2) We would not have been able to kill the 3 heroic waves AND Captain T'Sanne.</p><p>So tell me, would you just apply your "simple and elegant" and completely ineffective solution of everyone mentoring me, or would you actually try to complete the quest?</p></blockquote>Actually you would have cleaned house.  A 70 mentored to 26 is by far superior to a regular ole 26, assuming the same class and same calibre of player.

[Suta]

<cite>Pendant wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To the OP: there's a simple answer to your dilemma.</p><p>If everyone mentors the little guy in the group, everyone gets XP, everyone gets quest updates, nobody has to waste playtime faffing about with number calculations (and recalculations when someone leaves the group or you move into a different area).</p><p>Try it.</p></blockquote><p>That is not what he is asking so unless you are here to answer his question, get lost troll and keep your arrogant "play my way" opinions to yourself.</p><p> And to the OP.  It's %75 of your level, not %25</p>

[Skywarrior]

<cite>Sutava wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is not what he is asking so unless you are here to answer his question, get lost troll and keep your arrogant "play my way" opinions to yourself.</blockquote>Hmmm.  This particular "troll" left the discussion over 6 months ago.  Not that I agree he was a troll.  He had a well reasoned and, frankly, accurate point of view on the subject that he laid out in more detail a post or two later than your quote.  In any case, this thread was necro'd.

[Ponos]

Wow, who dug up this thread from beyond the intragrave?

[Skywarrior]

<cite>Arphenion@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not to dig up an old post, was simply coming here for information, but I felt I had to say this.  Mentoring the lowest/second lowest and so on until you get a combo that works or forces the low player to drop may work for small groups, but in a raid situation you need to know this if you have a broad spectrum of players.  If you have a level 50 zone you would like to raid, paying attention to the level difference formula is critical if you want to do a x4 raid with less than 4 groups.  I like to mentor and I think its a good game mechanic for the small stuff, but don't descredit the value of a post like this explaining a different game mechanic because your play style doesn't mess with that of the OP.</blockquote>Well, of course it is only relevant in groups.  Why would you be worried about xp in a raid scenario?  In any raid I've ever been on the only thing you care about is whether a goodie box drops when the bad guy dies.  In order for that to happen, the encounter has to be at least green to the highest member of the raid.  The only time you ever need to mentor in a raid is if the chest dropping mob is grey to the highest level in the raid, and then they likely would mentor the highest level in the raid where the mob was not grey.  Beyond that, who cares?