Maximize DPS.

[beaverton]

<p>I have a question for all you high end raiding troubs out there.</p><p>I average around 600-750, sometimes 800 dps zone wide for raids.  I want to get my DPS to around 900-1k zone wide.  I am the squishie's troub, which means I run Aira, Brias, Alins, Daelis, and Dove song...I switch dove song out for whatever resist is needed for any named and what not.</p><p>My AA's are KoS Wis and Str. maxed out.</p><p>EoF is Maxed out for Reach AA ability.  I have brias, aira, jc, PoTM and both Shrills maxed out as well.  Then  I have 5 in Kians and a few other randomly spread out over the Troubadour tree for a 100 total aa's.</p><p>The caster group we usually run with includes a Fury, Necro, Conj, Warlock, Wizzy and myself.</p><p>My gear is a mix of High End KoS Fabeled and EoF fabled. Here is my EQ2 players link <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=337536105" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=337536105</a></p><p>I am constantly JCing as many people as possible and poping PoTM alot as well, though I do try to wait for group enoucnters to pop PoTH if I know they are upcomming.  Is there some specific casting order I could use to maximise dps?  If so can somebody post some SS of their hotbar setup.  </p><p>I am constanlty poping int potions, so with my buffs and groups buffs my str is usually around 650 and my int gets over 715 with my deity pet.</p><p>Any suggestions will be appericated.</p>

[soulljah]

<p>If your raiding get rid of daelis and dove song and run your haste buff, and str/sta</p>

[Spider]

why would u run your haste buff in a caster group ?  that makes no sence at all

[Antipalad]

Why would you run in a caster group? Makes even less sense dps-wise.

[Vraneth]

Just from what I saw of your gear: I would use a pouch over the bow. I would use a STR imbued ring over the Echolalic band. I would use BCG over your belt. I would replace 1 of the earrings with the Invoker Orb. If you have the relic pants, I would use those over the hardshell ones.

[VericSauvari]

<cite>Vraneth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just from what I saw of your gear: I would use a pouch over the bow. I would use a STR imbued ring over the Echolalic band. I would use BCG over your belt. I would replace 1 of the earrings with the Invoker Orb. If you have the relic pants, I would use those over the hardshell ones. </blockquote><p>also get a grinning dirk of horror for your primary hand and add a proc to it.</p><p>drop doves, if you want that extra int from daelis by all means go for it. if you can get that illusionist deaggro/damage proc all the better as well</p>

[Vraneth]

I wouldn't adda proc to the weapon, I would use the +5 to pierce instead.

[Emerix]

if you get a grinning dirk of horror a proc should work well since the weapon hits slow as hell .

[KazzySoJaz]

<cite>VericSauvari wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vraneth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just from what I saw of your gear: I would use a pouch over the bow. I would use a STR imbued ring over the Echolalic band. I would use BCG over your belt. I would replace 1 of the earrings with the Invoker Orb. If you have the relic pants, I would use those over the hardshell ones. </blockquote><p>also get a grinning dirk of horror for your primary hand and add a proc to it.</p><p>drop doves, if you want that extra int from daelis by all means go for it. if you can get that illusionist deaggro/damage proc all the better as well</p></blockquote>Why drop doves, helps the squishies land things better, also helps you land better.  As for upping your dps, the ring suggestion(and pouch, etc.), better BP, and maybe testing different firing sequences on the CAs and spells (not sure what you do as it was not listed). 

[Mildavyn]

<cite>KazzySoJazzy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>VericSauvari wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vraneth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just from what I saw of your gear: I would use a pouch over the bow. I would use a STR imbued ring over the Echolalic band. I would use BCG over your belt. I would replace 1 of the earrings with the Invoker Orb. If you have the relic pants, I would use those over the hardshell ones. </blockquote><p>also get a grinning dirk of horror for your primary hand and add a proc to it.</p><p>drop doves, if you want that extra int from daelis by all means go for it. if you can get that illusionist deaggro/damage proc all the better as well</p></blockquote>Why drop doves, helps the squishies land things better, also helps you land better.  As for upping your dps, the ring suggestion(and pouch, etc.), better BP, and maybe testing different firing sequences on the CAs and spells (not sure what you do as it was not listed).  </blockquote>Unless you're fighting yellow-con or higher mobs, Dove song doesn't really do alot, certainly not as large an incrase as +217 INT would be. Also, run Opus in that group, necro/conj have scout pets, and they like haste.

[KazzySoJaz]

<cite>Mildavyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>KazzySoJazzy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why drop doves, helps the squishies land things better, also helps you land better.  As for upping your dps, the ring suggestion(and pouch, etc.), better BP, and maybe testing different firing sequences on the CAs and spells (not sure what you do as it was not listed).  </blockquote>Unless you're fighting yellow-con or higher mobs, Dove song doesn't really do alot, certainly not as large an incrase as +217 INT would be. Also, run Opus in that group, necro/conj have scout pets, and they like haste. </blockquote> Last I checked, we were talking yellow-orange mobs (high end raiding).  Also, I do not drop self buff for dove, I either drop str/sta or I drop alin's (depending on how long my squishies last without it, usually on solo nameds they do fine). 

[beaverton]

<p>Thank for the adivice all and keep it comming, I will try some of these suggestions tonite while raiding.</p><p>Peace!</p>

[Spider]

<cite>Antipaladin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why would you run in a caster group? Makes even less sense dps-wise.</blockquote><p> uh maybie because were CASTER BUFFERS ?????? ya think ? dirges buff Melee we buff casters </p><p>were designed to run in the caster group </p><p>if you dont know that simple fact then obviously you dont belong posting advice to ANYONE on being a troub </p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Antipaladin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why would you run in a caster group? Makes even less sense dps-wise.</blockquote><p> uh maybie because were CASTER BUFFERS ?????? ya think ? dirges buff Melee we buff casters </p><p>were designed to run in the caster group </p><p>if you dont know that simple fact then obviously you dont belong posting advice to ANYONE on being a troub </p></blockquote><p> Spider, learn a bit more about the synergies between classes.  Do this and you will find that to truly maximize dps, it's best to have melee scouts and casters together in a troub group in order for each to get the best buffs of all classes.  "Caster Group" refers to a raid building 4 casters, a healer and a troubie.</p><p> Fury - great for casters with the group int boost/vim - also great for dps scouts with agitate.</p><p>Sorcs/Conjs - all have proc songs that can benefit a dps scout</p><p>Yes, dirges do buff melee dps quite well, but we have something to add too and our hate decreaser is the BEST thing for a dps scout.</p>

[VericSauvari]

<cite>Vraneth wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldn't adda proc to the weapon, I would use the +5 to pierce instead.</blockquote> GdoH has +3 pierce + slow delay..toss an adornment on and its all magic

[VericSauvari]

<cite>KazzySoJazzy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mildavyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>KazzySoJazzy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why drop doves, helps the squishies land things better, also helps you land better.  As for upping your dps, the ring suggestion(and pouch, etc.), better BP, and maybe testing different firing sequences on the CAs and spells (not sure what you do as it was not listed).  </blockquote>Unless you're fighting yellow-con or higher mobs, Dove song doesn't really do alot, certainly not as large an incrase as +217 INT would be. Also, run Opus in that group, necro/conj have scout pets, and they like haste. </blockquote> Last I checked, we were talking yellow-orange mobs (high end raiding).  Also, I do not drop self buff for dove, I either drop str/sta or I drop alin's (depending on how long my squishies last without it, usually on solo nameds they do fine). </blockquote> most Squishies already have their own +sub/+dis/+manip etc in their buffs or AA's, our additions via doves is marginal at best even against yellow mobs. i disagree with dropping alins at any time unless you in a (for whatever reason..) a heavy tank group or a group of 4 bards, 1 healer and a brawler.

[Vraneth]

I run the same 5 buffs on every raid: Alin's Bria's Raxxyl's Opus and last but not least Aria I never ever run the self buff because the group benefits way more from this setup than if i dropeed any of the buffs. Dove Song doesn't really help at all, once the mob is debuffed ( less than 10 seconds in to the fight) noone will have problems landing on it, so there really is no reason to run Dove Song And for the proc adorns, nah they are not for me, running at 392 ( solo) pierce skill is more important to me, 1 or 2 procs isn't gonna make up for 1 missed melee attack when I swing for an average of 800 - 1k depending on the group I'm in.

[Emerix]

Dove song helps a bunch on tarinax and the guy in lyceum for example .

[KazzySoJaz]

<cite>VericSauvari wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>KazzySoJazzy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mildavyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>KazzySoJazzy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why drop doves, helps the squishies land things better, also helps you land better.  As for upping your dps, the ring suggestion(and pouch, etc.), better BP, and maybe testing different firing sequences on the CAs and spells (not sure what you do as it was not listed).  </blockquote>Unless you're fighting yellow-con or higher mobs, Dove song doesn't really do alot, certainly not as large an incrase as +217 INT would be. Also, run Opus in that group, necro/conj have scout pets, and they like haste. </blockquote> Last I checked, we were talking yellow-orange mobs (high end raiding).  Also, I do not drop self buff for dove, I either drop str/sta or I drop alin's (depending on how long my squishies last without it, usually on solo nameds they do fine). </blockquote> most Squishies already have their own +sub/+dis/+manip etc in their buffs or AA's, our additions via doves is marginal at best even against yellow mobs. i disagree with dropping alins at any time unless you in a (for whatever reason..) a heavy tank group or a group of 4 bards, 1 healer and a brawler. </blockquote><p> If you have the +'s of dove song plus any other gear, wouldn't that, in theory, make the mobs closer to green/grey.   Which, means more will land on the mob and hit the harder.</p><p>For Alin's I take it down quite often, especially on solo named mobs...</p><p>Also, the self buff helps more than opus/raxxyls imo...</p>

[Jait]

<p>It ALL depends on what your group makeup is.</p><p>If you have all wizards/warlocks, then yes, haste is only helping yourself, and is a waste.  If you have some pet-slingers or a few other non-mage/healer classes, haste might be useful... </p><p>Doves however is not useful on whites/blues, and rarely on yellows unless you're playing with gimped Mages.  It does not bring them down to "grey" status, as someone above mentioned (Use ACT, and stop guessing).  The returns just aren't worth using it if your casters are upgraded to A3-M1 and even better should already have Disruption bonuses on some of their armor.   There are always caveats.   The most important thing is to be aware of your group members and their synergy.  Paladins for example have a pretty decent buff akin to Doves, which also includes melee skills.  450 Disruption is nice, but you gotta ask yourself if there isn't something more useful you could be doing.</p><p>Also try not to confuse yourselves with Dirge strategy.  The Dirge self-buff is *nothing* like ours.  We gain upwards of 217 INT from the Buff, which means Maestro and Aria are proc'ing for a lot more damage over the course of an entire raid.  Again, be sure to use your parse and over the course of a few weeks you'll find the best setup that suits your raid group.</p>

[Vraneth]

<p>KazzySoJazzy wrote: </p><blockquote><p>For Alin's I take it down quite often, especially on solo named mobs...</p><p>Also, the self buff helps more than opus/raxxyls imo...</p></blockquote><p>Try having a brigand doing 2,5 - 3k dps when you drop that Alin's, see what he says. Or any other squishie for that matter that will die.</p><p>Opus / Raxxyl's are group buffs though, I'm there to buff the group not myself.</p>

[Spider]

<cite>Vraneth wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>KazzySoJazzy wrote: </p><blockquote><p>For Alin's I take it down quite often, especially on solo named mobs...</p><p>Also, the self buff helps more than opus/raxxyls imo...</p></blockquote><p>Try having a brigand doing 2,5 - 3k dps when you drop that Alin's, see what he says. Or any other squishie for that matter that will die.</p><p>Opus / Raxxyl's are group buffs though, I'm there to buff the group not myself.</p></blockquote><p>in a group situation you shouldnt need to assist the tank with agro control quite so much so you benifit the group FAR more by dishing out more damage and killing things faster </p><p>and u still have your mez and charm to help with adds  </p><p>now if your in a raid situation or your tanks having difficulty you miht then drop a buff for the group hate reduction </p>

[911GT3]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>in a group situation you shouldnt need to assist the tank with agro control quite so much so you benifit the group FAR more by dishing out more damage and killing things faster </p><p>and u still have your mez and charm to help with adds  </p><p>now if your in a raid situation or your tanks having difficulty you miht then drop a buff for the group hate reduction </p></blockquote><p> having hate reduction up allows everyone in your group to do more dps than normal</p><p>mez and charm are 100% useless during a raid, if you use it and it saves the raid its just pure luck and an illusionists mez was probly overriding yours anyway</p><p>hate reduction - see above</p><p>power regen - even with an enchanter you should run this, keeps things moving along smoothly</p><p>spell proc - see how often it actually procs for you, youll be amazed how much this helps dps, then add that with how many other casters are in your group, plus healers have spells too</p><p>self buff - this will give you a good dps boost and is a better choice that anything else unless you need a resist buff on</p><p>haste - unless your the only scout and there are no summoners with scout pets this is a good one to have up, otherwise str/stam buff could replace it</p>

[Spider]

<cite>911GT3 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>in a group situation you shouldnt need to assist the tank with agro control quite so much so you benifit the group FAR more by dishing out more damage and killing things faster </p><p>and u still have your mez and charm to help with adds  </p><p>now if your in a raid situation or your tanks having difficulty you miht then drop a buff for the group hate reduction </p></blockquote><p> having hate reduction up allows everyone in your group to do more dps than normal</p><p>mez and charm are 100% useless during a raid, if you use it and it saves the raid its just pure luck and an illusionists mez was probly overriding yours anyway</p><p>hate reduction - see above</p><p>power regen - even with an enchanter you should run this, keeps things moving along smoothly</p><p>spell proc - see how often it actually procs for you, youll be amazed how much this helps dps, then add that with how many other casters are in your group, plus healers have spells too</p><p>self buff - this will give you a good dps boost and is a better choice that anything else unless you need a resist buff on</p><p>haste - unless your the only scout and there are no summoners with scout pets this is a good one to have up, otherwise str/stam buff could replace it</p></blockquote><p> if u read waht i said i said in a GROUP situation  in a raid yes you would put on your hate reduction </p><p>however in a group its nearly pointless unless u have a realy crappy tank  and no assasin or dirge</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>911GT3 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>in a group situation you shouldnt need to assist the tank with agro control quite so much so you benifit the group FAR more by dishing out more damage and killing things faster </p><p>and u still have your mez and charm to help with adds  </p><p>now if your in a raid situation or your tanks having difficulty you miht then drop a buff for the group hate reduction </p></blockquote><p> having hate reduction up allows everyone in your group to do more dps than normal</p><p>mez and charm are 100% useless during a raid, if you use it and it saves the raid its just pure luck and an illusionists mez was probly overriding yours anyway</p><p>hate reduction - see above</p><p>power regen - even with an enchanter you should run this, keeps things moving along smoothly</p><p>spell proc - see how often it actually procs for you, youll be amazed how much this helps dps, then add that with how many other casters are in your group, plus healers have spells too</p><p>self buff - this will give you a good dps boost and is a better choice that anything else unless you need a resist buff on</p><p>haste - unless your the only scout and there are no summoners with scout pets this is a good one to have up, otherwise str/stam buff could replace it</p></blockquote><p> if u read waht i said i said in a GROUP situation  in a raid yes you would put on your hate reduction </p><p>however in a group its nearly pointless unless u have a realy crappy tank  and no assasin or dirge</p></blockquote>Its already been said but is worth repeating " having hate reduction up allows everyone in your group to do more dps than normal".  By 'more', thats guaranteed to be more than the troub can add with their self buff up, unless you have a really bad group. IF you were higher level yourself, you would not make stupid comments about crappy tanks.  Aggro holding for tanks is MUCH harder at the higher levels, as taunt  scaling has not kept up with dps scaling. I also hope you meant to say swashbuckler (or coercer?) not dirge, as the dirge hate buff takes a concentration slot too, so all you are doing is is making the dirge run it over you.  Its unlikely that a group would have (or want) both a troub & a dirge anway. On raids, if you are not running Alin's 100% of the time, the raid is better off without you.

[Mildavyn]

Wait for it... wait for it...

[Ballads]

Kalyria@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Dove song helps a bunch on tarinax and the guy in lyceum for example .</blockquote>Huh ? Have you even checked your resist rate with and with out dove ? Most mages have a less then a 5% resist rate versus yellows and less then 10% on oranges. So according to what was published at the begging on eof casting skills can give a maximum of 20% less resist ability to spells.so we are talking a max increase of landing 1% to 3% more from dove song. How can you even think that buff is worth running at all ? Versus players in pvp or mobs that have a natural high resistances (like the last 25% of lyceum's boss) it may have some benefit ,but to be honest debuffing a mobs resist has always been far more effective to my raids.  I think it was said earlier but ACT is your best friend in this game. Don't assume [Removed for Content], test it. I at first thought in eof dove song would be worth running but it didn't take long to see it still is worthless . One of the first things i like to do when learning a new encounter is open act and go through each mob in an encounter and do a resist check. Mobs are almost never immune to certain damage types but they often have high resists to at least 1 type of damage.

[soulljah]

Anyone else tired of listening to a [Removed for Content] on a pvp server, who's not even lvl 70 telling lvl 70 raiders (who've been raiding for  over two years) how to play there class? /ignore spider

[Spider]

Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>911GT3 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>in a group situation you shouldnt need to assist the tank with agro control quite so much so you benifit the group FAR more by dishing out more damage and killing things faster </p><p>and u still have your mez and charm to help with adds  </p><p>now if your in a raid situation or your tanks having difficulty you miht then drop a buff for the group hate reduction </p></blockquote><p> having hate reduction up allows everyone in your group to do more dps than normal</p><p>mez and charm are 100% useless during a raid, if you use it and it saves the raid its just pure luck and an illusionists mez was probly overriding yours anyway</p><p>hate reduction - see above</p><p>power regen - even with an enchanter you should run this, keeps things moving along smoothly</p><p>spell proc - see how often it actually procs for you, youll be amazed how much this helps dps, then add that with how many other casters are in your group, plus healers have spells too</p><p>self buff - this will give you a good dps boost and is a better choice that anything else unless you need a resist buff on</p><p>haste - unless your the only scout and there are no summoners with scout pets this is a good one to have up, otherwise str/stam buff could replace it</p></blockquote><p> if u read waht i said i said in a GROUP situation  in a <b>raid yes you would put on your hate reduction </b></p><p>however in a group its nearly pointless unless u have a realy crappy tank  and no assasin or dirge</p></blockquote>Its already been said but is worth repeating " having hate reduction up allows everyone in your group to do more dps than normal".  By 'more', thats guaranteed to be more than the troub can add with their self buff up, unless you have a really bad group. IF you were higher level yourself, you would not make stupid comments about crappy tanks.  Aggro holding for tanks is MUCH harder at the higher levels, as taunt  scaling has not kept up with dps scaling. I also hope you meant to say swashbuckler (or coercer?) not dirge, as the dirge hate buff takes a concentration slot too, so all you are doing is is making the dirge run it over you.  Its unlikely that a group would have (or want) both a troub & a dirge anway. <b>On raids, if you are not running Alin's 100% of the time, the raid is better off without you</b>.</blockquote>apperantly you missed where i said on a RAID yes you would use it but in a standard group its unnessisary

[Milbeast]

<p>Jesus Orion see what you did hehe</p><p>Auxx Dizzle</p><p>70 Troub/Unrest</p>

[Cuz]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>911GT3 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>in a group situation you shouldnt need to assist the tank with agro control quite so much so you benifit the group FAR more by dishing out more damage and killing things faster </p><p>and u still have your mez and charm to help with adds  </p><p>now if your in a raid situation or your tanks having difficulty you miht then drop a buff for the group hate reduction </p></blockquote><p> having hate reduction up allows everyone in your group to do more dps than normal</p><p>mez and charm are 100% useless during a raid, if you use it and it saves the raid its just pure luck and an illusionists mez was probly overriding yours anyway</p><p>hate reduction - see above</p><p>power regen - even with an enchanter you should run this, keeps things moving along smoothly</p><p>spell proc - see how often it actually procs for you, youll be amazed how much this helps dps, then add that with how many other casters are in your group, plus healers have spells too</p><p>self buff - this will give you a good dps boost and is a better choice that anything else unless you need a resist buff on</p><p>haste - unless your the only scout and there are no summoners with scout pets this is a good one to have up, otherwise str/stam buff could replace it</p></blockquote><p> if u read waht i said i said in a GROUP situation  in a raid yes you would put on your hate reduction </p><p>however in a group its nearly pointless unless u have a realy crappy tank  and no assasin or dirge</p></blockquote> If the DPS in your group can go all out and the tank can keep hate without your buff, they need to upgrade there spells/skills. Even with my buff up most DPS can grab agro at will from just about any tank.

[Pogopuschel]

I disagree there... If the tank's on his own, he will most likely lose aggro, but there's handy stuff like Assassin's and  Swashie's hate transfer, depending on the tank cl ass they have similar stuff too. Dirge in the group? Coercer in the group? Also if the dps people don't know how to control their own aggro, they can mess it up. Throwing an Ice Nova 2s into the fight is also stupid. Summing up, the usefulness of Serenade is very much depending on your group setup. It can  even hurt aggro control (raid situation, imagine e.g. Guard + Troub + Assa ssin + healer + healer + healer. You'll lower the  assassin's hate gain,  hence the amount transferred to the tank. You yourself shouldn't be able to get aggro from the tank, same goes for the healers, so it's a wasted conc slot that even makes your tank look bad <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)

[Bandito X]

<cite>beaverton wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am constantly JCing as many people as possible and poping PoTM alot as well, though I do try to wait for group enoucnters to pop PoTH if I know they are upcomming.  Is there some <b>specific casting order</b> I could use to maximise dps?  If so can somebody post some SS of their hotbar setup.  </p></blockquote> I'd like to see more discussion surrounding the OP's original question rather than song set-up. Song setup appears to be flexible depending on group make-up.  I am very interested in seeing casting order of raiding troubs to maximize DPS (melee as well as ranged)...or just general tips.

[Antryg Mistrose]

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>I disagree there... If the tank's on his own, he will most likely lose aggro, but there's handy stuff like Assassin's and  Swashie's hate transfer, depending on the tank cl ass they have similar stuff too. Dirge in the group? Coercer in the group? Also if the dps people don't know how to control their own aggro, they can mess it up. Throwing an Ice Nova 2s into the fight is also stupid. Summing up, the <b>usefulness of Serenade is very much depending on your group setup. It can  even hurt aggro control (raid situation, imagine e.g. Guard + Troub + Assa ssin + healer + healer + healer.</b> You'll lower the assassin's hate gain,  hence the amount transferred to the tank. You yourself shouldn't be able to get aggro from the tank, same goes for the healers, so it's a wasted conc slot that even makes your tank look bad <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) </blockquote> Strawman - the Troubador has no place in the group you describe (MT group). On the original topic - I make sure your mental debufs are up all the time, and have gottin used to parsing below priests. I am curious though whether other troubs cast Jesters on themselves (to speed up resuse of PotM), or just on other classes. I do use a macro /useabilityon Valcon Jester's Cap /usea Bladedance, but I figure Jesters on a class like Illusionist (who runs out of spells to cast due to reuse timers when dps specced), would probably outweigh getting another PotM off right at the end of the fight (talking raiding of course - group fights are never long enough). I'm also curious about people who cancel buffs and reapply during PotM - doesn't this hurt the overall raid's dps?

[beaverton]

Bandito X wrote: <blockquote><cite>beaverton wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am constantly JCing as many people as possible and poping PoTM alot as well, though I do try to wait for group enoucnters to pop PoTH if I know they are upcomming.  Is there some <b>specific casting order</b> I could use to maximise dps?  If so can somebody post some SS of their hotbar setup.  </p></blockquote> I'd like to see more discussion surrounding the OP's original question rather than song set-up. Song setup appears to be flexible depending on group make-up.  I am very interested in seeing casting order of raiding troubs to maximize DPS (melee as well as ranged)...or just general tips. </blockquote> First off I would like to thank everyone on their input, it has been helpfull.  However I do agree with Bandito X, I would like to see what casting order high dps troubs use on raids.  In additon to this I am also looking into proc gear, specificily for spells.  I do find i tend to cast more spells than ca's or at least my spells seem to do more dmage and my encounter only ae's are spells as well.  If anyone has anything to add to the casting order I would deffiently like to see it posted.  Thanks again all.

[Krilinye]

<p>I dont have any specific order i cast my spells in really, i just cast whats up and find a way to cycle through all the abilities without loosing too much dps, i dont debuff much on non-nameds as i find it a waste.</p><p> Also, when on a grp encounter with 3+ mobs in it, i tend to cast Jesters on myself and then POTM and just spam grp debuffs/DDs, keep canceling them and casting them again.</p><p>I usually parse up towards 1.4k dps (highest 2.2k) and about 800-1k zonewide.</p><p>In a typical fight i start out with Mental debuff, dancing blade and then just spam my DDs etc. keeping mental debuff and dancing blade up at all times <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Bandito X]

<cite>Krilinye wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> Also, when on a grp encounter with 3+ mobs in it, i tend to cast Jesters on myself and then POTM and just spam grp debuffs/DDs, keep canceling them and casting them again.</p></blockquote> Cancelling the group debuffs for what reason? to proc aria's again? Did you set up a macro to cancel or just right-clicking the effect and cancelling?

[Draco the Grey]

<b><i>ForgottenFoundling wrote:</i></b> <p> Spider, learn a bit more about the synergies between classes.  Do this and you will find that to truly maximize dps, it's best to have melee scouts and casters together in a troub group in order for each to get the best buffs of all classes.  "Caster Group" refers to a raid building 4 casters, a healer and a troubie.</p><p> Fury - great for casters with the group int boost/vim - also great for dps scouts with agitate.</p><p>Sorcs/Conjs - all have proc songs that can benefit a dps scout</p><p>Yes, dirges do buff melee dps quite well, but we have something to add too and our hate decreaser is the BEST thing for a dps scout.</p>--------------------------------------------------- Nothing wrong with Spider's understanding of class synergy in this case.  If you're starting with a Troub and a Fury, then adding anything but casters to that group is costing your raid DPS.  A Fury can cast Vim on multiple targets, but agitate on only one, and the group already has a scout for the Fury to cast it on.  As a Conjuror I typically have 2 free concentration slots with which to cast Blazing Seed.  That's one for me and one for my pet.  Sorry scouts.  Putting 4 casters with a Troub (5 if you count the Fury) is maximizing the benefits of Aria and PotM, and both are significant damage multipliers for casters, particularly for Summoners since the procs work for the Mage pets as well.  The stacking INT buffs of multiple casters also has a synergistic effect. As a Conjuror the buffs I care about are Bria's, Alin's, and Aria.  With the Unabate AA, Dove will have minimal impact on me.  Can't speak for other casters on that account though.

[Mildavyn]

Katryna@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote> Nothing wrong with Spider's understanding of class synergy in this case.  If you're starting with a Troub and a Fury, then adding anything but casters to that group is costing your raid DPS.  A Fury can cast Vim on multiple targets, but agitate on only one, and the group already has a scout for the Fury to cast it on.  As a Conjuror I typically have 2 free concentration slots with which to cast Blazing Seed.  That's one for me and one for my pet.  Sorry scouts.  Putting 4 casters with a Troub (5 if you count the Fury) is maximizing the benefits of Aria and PotM, and both are significant damage multipliers for casters, particularly for Summoners since the procs work for the Mage pets as well.  The stacking INT buffs of multiple casters also has a synergistic effect. As a Conjuror the buffs I care about are Bria's, Alin's, and Aria.  With the Unabate AA, Dove will have minimal impact on me.  Can't speak for other casters on that account though. </blockquote><p>Dove song is almost useless unless fighting reds, you'll see a VERY miniscule decrease in spell resists. Not worth it IMO. I would also disagree with your group make-up. Put atleast one DPS scout in that group, the 40% agro decreaser allows them to do more DPS, the melee procs are better on them than on us... We buff STR/STA by close/over 100 depending on AA setup. We also buff haste, and Aria/PotM can, does, and will proc off poison and melee procs.</p><p>As for your procs, why in the hell are you putting those procs on yourself? When are you meleeing in a raid? Blazing Seed procs off MELEE ATTACKS ONLY. If you're running a caster pet, then your pet doesnt need it either, give it to the troub and the other scout. Also, if you've got 2 wizards... well only one of them can put their proc on you, the other is wasted DPS if you dont have another scout.</p><p>A DPS scout doing 2000 DPS and not pulling agro because of Alins is alot more useful than the increase in DPS from another mage getting Aria. </p><p>Fury, Troub, 3 mages, one melee DPS. Substitute a paladin or SK in there if you want. they wont get the benefits of Alins, but they will get the benefits of haste/stats/Aria. </p><p>Putting a dirge in your melee DPS group is all well and good... but if those scouts have to slow their DPS because of it, then they aren't getting any benefit, and you would be better putting a troubador in that group instead. Find me a scout who cant pull agro off any tank and i'll show you one who is asleep at the keyboard. Alins helps those scouts ALOT more than extra DPS buffs does.</p>

[Mulilla]

Bandito X wrote: <blockquote><cite>Krilinye wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> Also, when on a grp encounter with 3+ mobs in it, i tend to cast Jesters on myself and then POTM and just spam grp debuffs/DDs, keep canceling them and casting them again.</p></blockquote><p>Cancelling the group debuffs for what reason? to proc aria's again? Did you set up a macro to cancel or just right-clicking the effect and cancelling? </p></blockquote><p>The 3 grp debuffs are toggleable (sp?).  Click on one, click on the second to queue, when 2nd is casting click on 1st to toggle and 3rd to queue, when 3rd is casting click on 2nd to toggle and 1st to queue and so on</p><p>You can have a few 3spell cycles this way, although i first do a whole cycle (cast the 3 debuffs), then DOT encounter, toggle the debuffs while casting dot, insta interrupt and then begin the cycle.  I leave the dot going since it is a fire & forget spell, and everything sums up</p>

[Mildavyn]

<p>PotM adds a 100% proc on hostile spells. With Aria at 45% you quite often get 2 procs on each target of each spell. To make doing this easier, have Discante, Zander's and Demoralizing right next to each other on your hotbar, i'll explain why shortly.</p><p>What you do is this. Cast Precision. Target one mob, lead with Alins (AE nuke) then Bellow. Then hit Zanders, then Kians. then CANCEL Zanders. At this point, you have Alins and Bellow down, and Kian's ticking away. Now you just repeatedly hit Zanders, Demoralizing and Discante. Cycle through them as fast as you can, click, click, click. Down stop clicking, even while they're casting, keep clicking. If you time it right, you will begin casting the next one as soon as the prior finishes, then your next round of clicks cancels the other two and que's the next. Doing this you can cast an AE every second (or thereabouts) procing on every single mob in the encounter. Feel free to hit Perfect Shrill and Steal Essence once the numbers get down, they'll up the DPS again.</p><p>On large groups (Poet's Palace: The Return has LARGE groups) I've hit 2k DPS. (the warlocks hit 6k, but I'm not a warlock)</p>

[Draco the Grey]

Paikis@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Katryna@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote> Nothing wrong with Spider's understanding of class synergy in this case.  If you're starting with a Troub and a Fury, then adding anything but casters to that group is costing your raid DPS.  A Fury can cast Vim on multiple targets, but agitate on only one, and the group already has a scout for the Fury to cast it on.  As a Conjuror I typically have 2 free concentration slots with which to cast Blazing Seed <span style="color: #6600ff">(Oops, Blazing is the lv51 version, Ember Seed is 65</span>.)  That's one for me and one for my pet.  Sorry scouts.  Putting 4 casters with a Troub (5 if you count the Fury) is maximizing the benefits of Aria and PotM, and both are significant damage multipliers for casters, particularly for Summoners since the procs work for the Mage pets as well.  The stacking INT buffs of multiple casters also has a synergistic effect. As a Conjuror the buffs I care about are Bria's, Alin's, and Aria.  With the Unabate AA, Dove will have minimal impact on me.  Can't speak for other casters on that account though. </blockquote><p>Dove song is almost useless unless fighting reds, you'll see a VERY miniscule decrease in spell resists. Not worth it IMO. I would also disagree with your group make-up. Put atleast one DPS scout in that group, the 40% agro decreaser allows them to do more DPS, the melee procs are better on them than on us... We buff STR/STA by close/over 100 depending on AA setup. We also buff haste, and Aria/PotM can, does, and will proc off poison and melee procs.</p><p><span style="color: #6600ff">And to run both of those buffs a Troub has to forego using 'Daelis' Frolicking of Blades' which, due to the significant INT buff, increases the proc damage of.... Aria and PotM.</span></p><p>As for your procs, why in the hell are you putting those procs on yourself? When are you meleeing in a raid? Blazing Seed procs off MELEE ATTACKS ONLY. If you're running a caster pet, then your pet doesnt need it either, give it to the troub and the other scout. Also, if you've got 2 wizards... well only one of them can put their proc on you, the other is wasted DPS if you dont have another scout.</p><p><span style="color: #6600ff">Not understanding other classes spells FTW.  Ember Seed procs off of 'Attacks', not 'Melee Attacks' and thus work quite well on spellcasters.  Common misconception.  Kthxnxt.</span></p><p>A DPS scout doing 2000 DPS and not pulling agro because of Alins is alot more useful than the increase in DPS from another mage getting Aria. </p><p><span style="color: #6600ff">Another Sorcerer doing 2000+ DPS and not pulling aggro because of Alin's, plus benefiting from both Aria and PotM, is every bit as useful or moseso.</span></p><p>Fury, Troub, 3 mages, one melee DPS. Substitute a paladin or SK in there if you want. they wont get the benefits of Alins, but they will get the benefits of haste/stats/Aria.</p><p><span style="color: #6600ff">Substituting a Crusader, on the other hand, would qualify as less useful.</span>  </p><p>Putting a dirge in your melee DPS group is all well and good... but if those scouts have to slow their DPS because of it, then they aren't getting any benefit, and you wouldbe better putting a troubador in that group instead. Find me a scout who cant pull agro off any tank and i'll show you one who is asleep at the keyboard. Alins helps those scouts ALOT more than extra DPS buffs does.</p><p><span style="color: #6600ff">The solution then is to find a second Troubador to group with the scouts, not to water down a caster group.  If only one is available, a Troubador is more beneficial overall to spellcasters.</span></p></blockquote>

[Mildavyn]

<p>Not understanding other classes spells FTW indeed. Take another look at Alins... it detaunts everytime you cause damage... who is going to hit things more often, a scout, or a mage? kthxnxt.</p><p>Also, other than necros using lifeburn and the occasional mana-burning wizard, no casters can touch a scout's DPS at the momment. Scouts FTW!</p>

[Draco the Grey]

<p>Paikis@Venekor wrote: </p><blockquote><p>Not understanding other classes spells FTW indeed. Take another look at Alins... it detaunts everytime you cause damage... who is going to hit things more often, a scout, or a mage? kthxnxt.</p><p>Also, other than necros using lifeburn and the occasional mana-burning wizard, no casters can touch a scout's DPS at the momment. Scouts FTW!</p></blockquote><p> I understand Alin's just fine.  You, on the other hand, apparently don't.</p><p>The detaunt activates when you are hit by an enemy, not when you hit it.</p><p>The primary benefit of the buff is the group hate reduction, not the proc.</p>

[Spider]

Katryna@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Paikis@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Katryna@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote> Nothing wrong with Spider's understanding of class synergy in this case.  If you're starting with a Troub and a Fury, then adding anything but casters to that group is costing your raid DPS.  A Fury can cast Vim on multiple targets, but agitate on only one, and the group already has a scout for the Fury to cast it on.  As a Conjuror I typically have 2 free concentration slots with which to cast Blazing Seed <span style="color: #6600ff">(Oops, Blazing is the lv51 version, Ember Seed is 65</span>.)  That's one for me and one for my pet.  Sorry scouts.  Putting 4 casters with a Troub (5 if you count the Fury) is maximizing the benefits of Aria and PotM, and both are significant damage multipliers for casters, particularly for Summoners since the procs work for the Mage pets as well.  The stacking INT buffs of multiple casters also has a synergistic effect. As a Conjuror the buffs I care about are Bria's, Alin's, and Aria.  With the Unabate AA, Dove will have minimal impact on me.  Can't speak for other casters on that account though. </blockquote><p>Dove song is almost useless unless fighting reds, you'll see a VERY miniscule decrease in spell resists. Not worth it IMO. I would also disagree with your group make-up. Put atleast one DPS scout in that group, the 40% agro decreaser allows them to do more DPS, the melee procs are better on them than on us... We buff STR/STA by close/over 100 depending on AA setup. We also buff haste, and Aria/PotM can, does, and will proc off poison and melee procs.</p><p><span style="color: #6600ff">And to run both of those buffs a Troub has to forego using 'Daelis' Frolicking of Blades' which, due to the significant INT buff, increases the proc damage of.... Aria and PotM.</span></p><p>As for your procs, why in the hell are you putting those procs on yourself? When are you meleeing in a raid? Blazing Seed procs off MELEE ATTACKS ONLY. If you're running a caster pet, then your pet doesnt need it either, give it to the troub and the other scout. Also, if you've got 2 wizards... well only one of them can put their proc on you, the other is wasted DPS if you dont have another scout.</p><p><span style="color: #6600ff">Not understanding other classes spells FTW.  Ember Seed procs off of 'Attacks', not 'Melee Attacks' and thus work quite well on spellcasters.  Common misconception.  Kthxnxt.</span></p><p>A DPS scout doing 2000 DPS and not pulling agro because of Alins is alot more useful than the increase in DPS from another mage getting Aria. </p><p><span style="color: #6600ff">Another Sorcerer doing 2000+ DPS and not pulling aggro because of Alin's, plus benefiting from both Aria and PotM, is every bit as useful or moseso.</span></p><p>Fury, Troub, 3 mages, one melee DPS. Substitute a paladin or SK in there if you want. they wont get the benefits of Alins, but they will get the benefits of haste/stats/Aria.</p><p><span style="color: #6600ff">Substituting a Crusader, on the other hand, would qualify as less useful.</span>  </p><p>Putting a dirge in your melee DPS group is all well and good... but if those scouts have to slow their DPS because of it, then they aren't getting any benefit, and you wouldbe better putting a troubador in that group instead. Find me a scout who cant pull agro off any tank and i'll show you one who is asleep at the keyboard. Alins helps those scouts ALOT more than extra DPS buffs does.</p><p><span style="color: #6600ff">The solution then is to find a second Troubador to group with the scouts, not to water down a caster group.  If only one is available, a Troubador is more beneficial overall to spellcasters.</span></p></blockquote> </blockquote>nicely put

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> And to run both of those buffs a Troub has to forego using 'Daelis' > Frolicking of Blades' which, due to the significant INT buff, increases > the proc damage of.... Aria and PotM.</p><p>I thought the proc damage of Aria's and PotM was based on the intelligence of the caster, not the troub. Am I mistaken?</p>

[Draco the Grey]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> And to run both of those buffs a Troub has to forego using 'Daelis' > Frolicking of Blades' which, due to the significant INT buff, increases > the proc damage of.... Aria and PotM.</p><p>I thought the proc damage of Aria's and PotM was based on the intelligence of the caster, not the troub. Am I mistaken?</p></blockquote><p>It is possible that I am mistaken on this point, so please correct me if I am wrong.  Since they are spells maintained by the Troubador, the damage is based on his/her INT.  Similarly, if I were to cast Pyreshield <span style="color: #009900">or</span> Ember Seed on a Guardian the damage would be based off of my INT, rather than the Guardian<span style="color: #009900">'</span>s.  A poison's proc damage is based on the INT of the scout who activated it, and so on.  That's how I understand it.</p><p> <span style="color: #009900">Edit: typo</span></p>

[Spider]

Katryna@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> And to run both of those buffs a Troub has to forego using 'Daelis' > Frolicking of Blades' which, due to the significant INT buff, increases > the proc damage of.... Aria and PotM.</p><p>I thought the proc damage of Aria's and PotM was based on the intelligence of the caster, not the troub. Am I mistaken?</p></blockquote><p>It is possible that I am mistaken on this point, so please correct me if I am wrong.  Since they are spells maintained by the Troubador, the damage is based on his/her INT.  Similarly, if I were to cast Pyreshield <span style="color: #009900">or</span> Ember Seed on a Guardian the damage would be based off of my INT, rather than the Guardian<span style="color: #009900">'</span>s.  A poison's proc damage is based on the INT of the scout who activated it, and so on.  That's how I understand it.</p><p> <span style="color: #009900">Edit: typo</span></p></blockquote> i do belive that is correct and u can turn off ur self buff and look at the prov then turn on ur self buff an look again and see the damage increase in the proc

[Myk]

<p>I am not a big believer that troubs should be able to do much DPS because they contribute significant DPS to the group in the form of procs, strenghth, haste (spell and melee), etc.  We also allow groupmates to do more damage by increasing their power regen and reducing their hate.  Troubs are perfectly well balanced in raids based on my on experiences and by the fact that any DPSer usually begs to have a troub in the group.   Of the few classes that you'd like mulitple members of the same subclass, troubs are one of them (I'd add fury and brigand to the short list).</p><p> I have been in several raiding guilds, usually with more than one troub in the guild, so I have raided with other troubs many times.  I almost always have a different view about the role of troubs in a raid.  I believe we are there to max the dps of the group and help the group survive.  For this reason, I think debuffing is very important and debuff even on trash mobs, I try to time PoM for my groupmates even if it comes at the expense of my DPS, and am more likely to jester's other people and not myself.  IMO, troubs who concentrate on getting high up on the dps list are oftentimes selling their group, and thus the raid, short.  When I look at the DPS, I'm looking to see if groupmates are at the top and get quiet satisfaction that I helped them achieve that.  If you are interested in pumping out above-average DPS, you rolled the wrong class, period.  You should have rolled an assasin and not a troub.</p><p> With that said, I have long felt that SOE should give troubs a very powerful selfbuff but make it require 2 or even 3 concentration slots.  That would gave us some soloablility and let us duo effectively when we're not raiding.</p>

[Spider]

<cite>Mykin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am not a big believer that troubs should be able to do much DPS because they contribute significant DPS to the group in the form of procs, strenghth, haste (spell and melee), etc.  We also allow groupmates to do more damage by increasing their power regen and reducing their hate.  Troubs are perfectly well balanced in raids based on my on experiences and by the fact that any DPSer usually begs to have a troub in the group.   Of the few classes that you'd like mulitple members of the same subclass, troubs are one of them (I'd add fury and brigand to the short list).</p><p> I have been in several raiding guilds, usually with more than one troub in the guild, so I have raided with other troubs many times.  I almost always have a different view about the role of troubs in a raid.  I believe we are there to max the dps of the group and help the group survive.  For this reason, I think debuffing is very important and debuff even on trash mobs, I try to time PoM for my groupmates even if it comes at the expense of my DPS, and am more likely to jester's other people and not myself.  IMO, troubs who concentrate on getting high up on the dps list are oftentimes selling their group, and thus the raid, short.  When I look at the DPS, I'm looking to see if groupmates are at the top and get quiet satisfaction that I helped them achieve that.  If you are interested in pumping out above-average DPS, you rolled the wrong class, period.  You should have rolled an assasin and not a troub.</p><p> With that said, I have long felt that SOE should give troubs a very powerful selfbuff but make it require 2 or even 3 concentration slots.  That would gave us some soloablility and let us duo effectively when we're not raiding.</p></blockquote>as to the first part i couldnt agree more but for the second our self buff is perfect as it is it jsut needs the conc slot removed   or some + melee skills added if its gonna keep the conc slot

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> i do belive that is correct and u can turn off ur self buff and look at the > prov then turn on ur self buff an look again and see the damage > increase in the proc </p><p>This is an important point. If everyone's proc is based on the troubadour's intelligence, your self-buff may be worth it in a raid or group. If it's based on the caster's intelligence, the self-buff becomes MUCH lower priority. Watching the damage display on your own proc is not the best place to look. You need to ask a friend what the proc looks like on their toon (and that's assuming the display is correct.)</p><p>I remember reading on these boards that the proc was based on the casters intelligence. I remember, because it seemed counter-intuitive, and it made the self-int buff worth much less. I don't know for sure, thugh, the only way to tell for sure is to conduct tests. Hopefully, someone has or will. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Myk]

<p>The dmg from troub procs used to be based on the INT of the troub.  That has been changed.  It is now based on the INT of the person proccing and not based on the INT of the troub.</p>

[Mildavyn]

Katryna@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>I understand Alin's just fine.  You, on the other hand, apparently don't.</p><p>The detaunt activates when you are hit by an enemy, not when you hit it.</p><p>The primary benefit of the buff is the group hate reduction, not the proc.</p></blockquote><p>Apparently you dont, go read the spell description again. Says 'when target is damaged' I dont know about you, but i dont usually target myself when im trying to kill something.</p><p>Also, Aria is based off the caster's (i.e NOT the troub) INT. It used to be that it was based off the Troubs INT, but its been changed. </p>

[aelder~]

<p>With respect to Aria's... can someone please test and parse it in the arena or PvP server perhaps and post results for us to see the difference with and without the self buff up, for example?  or do 2 zonewide parses, one where they play daeli's whole time and one where they never use it?</p><p>I keep hearing it both ways and looking at the icon on myself and groupmates doesn't really clarify the situation.  Let me explain:</p><p>Look at damage on Aria icon pre-cast and check its damage (say, top of my head, its 290ish at bottom of range).  Cast Daeli's, look at cast icon again (now ~310).  Cast PotM and then finally cast Aria (perhaps it reached ~31<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  You and your group mate(s) will now have the icon showing the same damage on the proc (low end of range at around 318 and same on each group member).  Now strip Daeli's and click off PotM.  Your maintained spell icon will still show the proc damage from when you cast it (~31<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -- not the once again lowest damage level.  This <i>suggests</i> that Aria damage is based on <b>your INT at time the buff is cast</b>.</p><p>The real oddity is that this does not last indefinitely.  keep checking your maintained icon and that of party members and you will find, say 10 minutes later, that the Aria damage in the maintained icon is now lower than when you cast it...</p><p>I'd love to see someone with ACT test it please.  If nothing else, I'd like to know if the periodic buffing / casting / unbuffing / rebuffing is useless waste of time, or if its worth it to go through that rigomoral to eek out 10% more damage from Aria.</p><p>Happy hunting,</p><p>Aelder</p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

Katryna@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> And to run both of those buffs a Troub has to forego using 'Daelis' > Frolicking of Blades' which, due to the significant INT buff, increases > the proc damage of.... Aria and PotM.</p><p>I thought the proc damage of Aria's and PotM was based on the intelligence of the caster, not the troub. Am I mistaken?</p></blockquote><p>It is possible that I am mistaken on this point, so please correct me if I am wrong.  Since they are spells maintained by the Troubador, the damage is based on his/her INT.  Similarly, if I were to cast Pyreshield <span style="color: #009900">or</span> Ember Seed on a Guardian the damage would be based off of my INT, rather than the Guardian<span style="color: #009900">'</span>s.  A poison's proc damage is based on the INT of the scout who activated it, and so on.  That's how I understand it.</p><p> <span style="color: #009900">Edit: typo</span></p></blockquote><p>You're wrong about a troubs int and the dmg of aria and PotM.  Look at any zonewide parse of a group.  Make sure that one member has less int than the troub.  Now, compare the zonewides of dissonant note and precise note.  You will see a difference of every single caster.  The int of the toon governs the dmg of the procs, and the hate goes to the toon with the procs.</p><p>I speculate that most procs in the game are like this, but I haven't focused on defensive procs.</p><p>Okay, I did check on a few others.  Emberseed also uses the int of the toon it's on.  Parsed troub vs swashy.  I had higher int than the swashy, but lower int than the conjy.  My emberseed procs were higher than the swashy's.  If what you're saying is true, the procs would have been identical due to using your int vs ours.</p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

Katryna@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Paikis@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Katryna@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote> Nothing wrong with Spider's understanding of class synergy in this case.  If you're starting with a Troub and a Fury, then adding anything but casters to that group is costing your raid DPS.  A Fury can cast Vim on multiple targets, but agitate on only one, and the group already has a scout for the Fury to cast it on.  As a Conjuror I typically have 2 free concentration slots with which to cast Blazing Seed <span style="color: #6600ff">(Oops, Blazing is the lv51 version, Ember Seed is 65</span>.)  That's one for me and one for my pet.  Sorry scouts.  Putting 4 casters with a Troub (5 if you count the Fury) is maximizing the benefits of Aria and PotM, and both are significant damage multipliers for casters, particularly for Summoners since the procs work for the Mage pets as well.  The stacking INT buffs of multiple casters also has a synergistic effect. As a Conjuror the buffs I care about are Bria's, Alin's, and Aria.  With the Unabate AA, Dove will have minimal impact on me.  Can't speak for other casters on that account though. </blockquote>As for your procs, why in the hell are you putting those procs on yourself? When are you meleeing in a raid? Blazing Seed procs off MELEE ATTACKS ONLY. If you're running a caster pet, then your pet doesnt need it either, give it to the troub and the other scout. Also, if you've got 2 wizards... well only one of them can put their proc on you, the other is wasted DPS if you dont have another scout. <p><span style="color: #6600ff">Not understanding other classes spells FTW.  Ember Seed procs off of 'Attacks', not 'Melee Attacks' and thus work quite well on spellcasters.  Common misconception.  Kthxnxt.</span></p></blockquote> </blockquote><p> Since, we're being snarky...  "not understanding your OWN class spells FTW".</p><p>I promise you emberseed only is proccing on melee and ranged attacks.  Seriously, look a parser...  Also, there is little reason to use any pet but the mage pet when you have a troub in the group as this maximizes your dps from aria and potm.</p>

[Draco the Grey]

<cite>ForgottenFoundling wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since, we're being snarky...  "not understanding your OWN class spells FTW". <p>I promise you emberseed only is proccing on melee and ranged attacks.  Seriously, look a parser...  Also, there is little reason to use any pet but the mage pet when you have a troub in the group as this maximizes your dps from aria and potm.</p></blockquote><p>I don't parse, but I can admit to being wrong.  I'll have to test it out when I have time to look over the combat logs.  I can read my spell descriptions just fine, though, and the proc for Ember Seed reads exactly the same as the ones for Blazing Avatar and Elemental Vestment which do proc off of spells.  If it doesn't, SOE needs to make the description clearer, but what else is new.</p><p>I do, however, have to chuckle at Paikis who clearly doesn't know how to understand his own spell descriptions properly.</p><p>It appears I was incorrect about Daelis', which simply means it isn't a necessary buff when buffing a caster group.</p>

[Mildavyn]

Katryna@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>ForgottenFoundling wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since, we're being snarky...  "not understanding your OWN class spells FTW". <p>I promise you emberseed only is proccing on melee and ranged attacks.  Seriously, look a parser...  Also, there is little reason to use any pet but the mage pet when you have a troub in the group as this maximizes your dps from aria and potm.</p></blockquote><p>I don't parse, but I can admit to being wrong.  I'll have to test it out when I have time to look over the combat logs.  I can read my spell descriptions just fine, though, and the proc for Ember Seed reads exactly the same as the ones for Blazing Avatar and Elemental Vestment which do proc off of spells.  If it doesn't, SOE needs to make the description clearer, but what else is new.</p><p>I do, however, have to chuckle at Paikis who clearly doesn't know how to understand his own spell descriptions properly.</p><p>It appears I was incorrect about Daelis', which simply means it isn't a necessary buff when buffing a caster group.</p></blockquote>What did I do to tick you off? I have since re-read the spell description of Alins, you were correct, it only procs when YOU get hit by the MOBs.

[Draco the Grey]

Paikis@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>What did I do to tick you off? I have since re-read the spell description of Alins, you were correct, it only procs when YOU get hit by the MOBs. </blockquote>Tick me off?  Nah.  Just teasing you over your insistence that it did something else.  Glad you got that straightened out.  <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And to be fair, it appears I was wrong about Ember Seed and you were correct.  That's what I get for expecting consistent spell descriptions and not checking the combat logs for myself. That said, a free Ember Seed buff is hardly enough to justify putting a scout in the group.  I still stand by my original assertion that a 4th caster is the way to go.

[Draco the Grey]

<cite>ForgottenFoundling wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Okay, I did check on a few others.  Emberseed also uses the int of the toon it's on.  Parsed troub vs swashy.  I had higher int than the swashy, but lower int than the conjy.  My emberseed procs were higher than the swashy's.  If what you're saying is true, the procs would have been identical due to using your int vs ours.</p></blockquote>Ember Seed procs for a range, not a set amount, so there is some random variation involved.  If the damage is governed by the Conjuror's INT, then under controlled circumstances the average proc will be approximately the same for both, given a large enough sample size. The best way to test is to fight white con mobs on autoattack, using no mitigation debuffs (such as Conjuror's Brand) and check the individual proc values against the damage range the Conjuror sees for the spell.  If the target has significantly less INT than the Conjuror and the values are below the normal damage range, then you have your answer.

[aelder~]

<p>I suppose its a reflection of how few troubadors are left that our proc question gets answered by conjurors <img src="/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>As long as folks are "chatting" about Alin's, I figure its the 40% less hate gain that really matters anyway, even more than the instant hate reduction that occurs when you take damage.</p><p>Cheers,</p><p>Aelder</p>

[Spider]

aelder~ wrote: <blockquote><p>I suppose its a reflection of how few troubadors are left that our proc question gets answered by conjurors <img src="/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>As long as folks are "chatting" about Alin's, I figure its the 40% less hate gain that really matters anyway, even more than the instant hate reduction that occurs when you take damage.</p><p>Cheers,</p><p>Aelder</p></blockquote><p>this is true  </p><p>but as long as your not gettign oneshotted the proc might even show a use from time to time </p><p>i.e. mobs that fire off smaller aoe's or aoe dots  that tick off non instant death amounts of damage </p><p>at wich point the proc is usefull as well </p><p>as for our spell damage proc the simplest way to test this would be to group with a caster with an int buff </p><p>put on our buff and have them look at the proc to see it damage and then cast there int buff on themselves and see if it increases</p><p>then have the troub cast its self buff and see if the proc increases on them </p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

Katryna@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>ForgottenFoundling wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Okay, I did check on a few others.  Emberseed also uses the int of the toon it's on.  Parsed troub vs swashy.  I had higher int than the swashy, but lower int than the conjy.  My emberseed procs were higher than the swashy's.  If what you're saying is true, the procs would have been identical due to using your int vs ours.</p></blockquote>Ember Seed procs for a range, not a set amount, so there is some random variation involved.  If the damage is governed by the Conjuror's INT, then under controlled circumstances the average proc will be approximately the same for both, given a large enough sample size. The best way to test is to fight white con mobs on autoattack, using no mitigation debuffs (such as Conjuror's Brand) and check the individual proc values against the damage range the Conjuror sees for the spell.  If the target has significantly less INT than the Conjuror and the values are below the normal damage range, then you have your answer. </blockquote><p>Emberseed does proc for a range, however, I am looking at zonewide parses and not just encounter specific ones.  There were 2 conjurers in the group, one with emberseed on them (they melee and cast).  Conjy parses were highest (but significantly lower dmg), troub 2nd and swashy last.  Just as int levels were. </p><p> The zonewides for most of these items were significantly different proccing amounts that should not have differed so with a normal dmg range of procs.  I'm convinced.  If you are not, get out the parser and check it out. </p>

[Draco the Grey]

Not saying you were wrong, just that it was bad methodology.  Too many factors that could skew your results simply running a normal zone. Simpler test - Champion with Conjuror's Brand off, fighting level 69 Dire Worgs in the Loping Plains.  With the pet in defensive stance, Ember Seed hit for much less than the amount I see listed, between 57-69 points a hit.  When I put the pet in offensive stance, Ember Seed hits for much higher, so that confirms that. Pyreshield, on the other hand, hit for exactly the amount my spell shows every single time, offensive or defensive stance.  So it appears defensive buffs do still use the caster's INT.

[Pogopuschel]

Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>I disagree there... If the tank's on his own, he will most likely lose aggro, but there's handy stuff like Assassin's and  Swashie's hate transfer, depending on the tank cl ass they have similar stuff too. Dirge in the group? Coercer in the group? Also if the dps people don't know how to control their own aggro, they can mess it up. Throwing an Ice Nova 2s into the fight is also stupid. Summing up, the <b>usefulness of Serenade is very much depending on your group setup. It can  even hurt aggro control (raid situation, imagine e.g. Guard + Troub + Assa ssin + healer + healer + healer.</b> You'll lower the assassin's hate gain,  hence the amount transferred to the tank. You yourself shouldn't be able to get aggro from the tank, same goes for the healers, so it's a wasted conc slot that even makes your tank look bad <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) </blockquote> Strawman - the Troubador has no place in the group you describe (MT group). </blockquote> Oh yes sorry, I forgot: Raids and available classes are always perfect and you never have to work with what you got...

[Caldorian]

   I usually run with 4 casters and a fury on raids. Usually 2 of the casters are Conj/ Necro. Our group spell procs work off of our INT not the casters. It's easy enough to parse and see that. I am not to concerned with my personal DPS, as I am not a DPS class and never will be. I mainly Debuff, add what dps I can and JC my butt off while helping my group's DPS. I have spec'ed to reflect that. I am max on anything that helps my group but have done little to help my own DPS. I went Sta line as I like the added defense.  Blocking those those big melee AEs and watching most the scouts go splat is funny.     The only reason I can see a troub being with anyone but casters is if there are 2 troubs. Then put the 2nd troub with your high melee DPS just for the deaggro, haste and avoid boost. My overall raid DPS is no where near 1k and on average I parse 500-600. Granted there is still  a lot of gear I would like to get but I am full relic or better. But If you add in the DPS just from Aria that I provide it's more along the lined of 1400DPS. I account for at least 10% of the dps of each group member and above 15% for Necros,  fast fingered warlocks and summoners using mage pets.  That isn't even counting PotM, JC,  and the extra damage hate reducer provides if the casters use it. IMO that is the troub class in a nut shell. I don't see how you parse 1K personal DPS and still JC and POTM as much as you can to help your group. But maybe is just great gear. We are Troubs... If you want personal DPS roll a swashy or assassin. But if you really look at our class outside our personal DPS, we provide more to a raid then any single DPS could dream of. Some can handle the utility class and some want more glory. To each their own.     One of the things I wish they would change with Troubs is to make PotM more in line with the DPS boost of CoB.  PotM just doesn't provide the DPS I think it should.    With all this said, I don't claim to be a hard core raider or the end all of Troub Knowledge.

[aelder~]

<p>One constructive thought.  We have talked some about gear and cast orders.  I highly recommend knowing your buffs, or rather theirs.  You may have the experienced the disappointment of being out dps'd by another bard on your raid.  You assume its cast order, or gear, etc.  Mileage may vary, but it has alot more to do with the other buffs we get from other folks and therefore group composition.</p><p>A good portion of the damage that can lift you from being a 300-400 dps troubador to 700-800 can come from your group.  As with gear, look for proc buffs that can be laid atop one another.  I'll focus on procs (as opposed to group buffs, like berserk or the inqui proc frequncy booster) because those are the ones to watch and ask for since it may not occur to the casters to necessarily have it on their bard.  If you get multiple procs, make the most of them by getting up your haste and being sure you get a melee cut between your spells/CAs.</p><p>In particular watch for / request (note: from memory so correct me on names and icons pls):</p><p>Conjuror: Ember Seed (yellow blaze on orange background)</p><p>Wizard: Phoenix Blade (sword on orange background)</p><p>Warlock: Maliganant Grasp (can't remember, creepy fingers on orange or green?)</p><p>Fury: Agitate (closed fist on redish background, similar to allegro)</p><p>Illusionist: Synergism (dunno) & i think a double attack that is best on a dual wielder</p><p>I am sure there are others, but these are the ones I watch for in the raid group I am usually with (alas, I rarely get the illusionist goodies as when do we really get an illusionist or coercer to play with?).</p><p>Recognize that if you have another scout or fighter in group they are more likely to be the lucky recipient of this largesse. But it's worth keeping an eye out for, as silly things do happen sometimes (agitate on necro's mage pet b/c the conjuror assumed it was a scout pet; mages forget to melee buff after wipe since its a "caster" group, etc.)</p><p>Happy hunting,</p><p>Aelder</p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<p>Also, Phoenixblade & Malignant Grasp do not stick, so figure out which sorc has the better spell and pick that up.  I've found that master Phoenixblade actually parses more for my playstyle than Mal Grasp, but your mileage may vary.</p><p> /useabilityonplayer macros take any of the difficulty out of JCapping others.  Jcapping yourself will allow you to get more precisions off and speed up the recast for another jcap for the future although this strat isn't the best for all encounters.</p><p> Another thing that will help you will be getting people that you routinely jcap to watch their buffs and find out when immunity is up, then hit a macro to let you know that immunity is up and they can be capped again.</p>

[Caldorian]

Yeah my JC is macro'd. I have 5 target keys and 1 (/tell target, cast JC,/target MA) key then the MT target key. For our raids we are usually a bit short on heals so JCing the MT's Shammy is a huge help at the start of the fight. after that if the MTs health is still bouncing a bit i go to a secondary healer. Then it's DPS. But honestly many of my DPS simply don't use JC or ask for it. I JC rangers before sniper shot. Every once in a while a caster asks for it. As for group buffs. I always have Vim for the added proc damage. ( have parsed it and you get more DPS our of Vim  with it on a troub then on any  caster. Always have agitate, as there is almost never another melee in my group. always have ember seed ( we have conj's coming out our ears ) alway have Wiz warlock melee proc depending on which I have in group. I know part of my issue with DPS is the delay on my 1 hander and the fact that I use a 1 hander. While waiting on a shadow axe, i stole a frostwrath from  the tanks. Nice weapon but with 1.6 delay not the best for procs. i am working on getting that melee hit in between CA's and Nukes. My gear is more suited for Nuking as that seems to be where alot of my DPS comes from. self Buffed I run 47% haste and 56%? to double attack, 10% dps mod. (still waiting for a good bow to add another 10% to.)  I have recently raised my Str to a decent level usually 580 or so on raid, Unless I am having to go heavy on resist gear. I know I could get more DPS out of DW. I respeced and parsed it. But honestly I saw a huge decrease in defense overall, once I specced that way, for only a marginal increase in DPS. I also didn't like the poison Procs from Agi line that so many love. As a mezzer is seriously messes me up since it's a passive aa. But sword and board allows me to live thru the mass barrages where other scouts get slaughtered. With only 13% to block I block a hell of a lot of those attacks. If I drop it's usually my casters turn shortly behind. They are accustomed to that 40% hate reduction and can't seem to adjust their nukes until I am up and buffed again. Our normal raid dirge parses 900 - 1k most of the time. But he's in the MT group with a coercer. He [Removed for Content] well better parse high. Just adding a dirge to my group makes a huge improvement to my DPS. mainly the DPS mod I think. In groups I have parsed 800s with axe.. 900s with dw. I am hoping that once I get the slower delay weapon and another 10% dps mod my DPS will reflect.  But on raids I do alot of debuffing. I took the Demorilization line and now almost done with Resonance.  Not to interested in the +5 range but I wanted the wards on resist songes maxed. I liked the demoralization line.  first time I use it on raid our healers commented that they saw the difference. MT wasn't dropping near as fast up front. On a raid: have shammy in target at pull. JC as the mob arrives,  I turn on auto ranged, Demoral pro, zander's and then Kian's.  step up and use f flanking, snare/debuff, recast any debuffs that were resisted then perfect shrill , noble, personal HO ( macroed) if I don't already have the haste/dps Buff. then Bump and midnight. then cycle what ever is up.  throwing in Bellow for the 45% proc rate. I always have snare on the mob before I use perfect shrill. I know I tend to run thru all that to fast and don't get the melee swings in between but I am working on that.  I seem to have good burst damage but i can't sustain it at all.. i will jump to 1k+ on active parse then drop  steadily to 5-600 by the end of the fight.  To explain the bow auto attack. I found I could Auto bow attack while debuffing where I can't melee attack. It's only 1-2 hits but my bow hits for 600-1200 + procs and crits so it's better then no hits in that short span of time.

[Pogopuschel]

Whoa, many postings while I wasn't looking. - The other cool Illu buff for Troubs is "Illusory Arm" - Aria's proc damage is based on the Troub's intelligence while you put up Aria. Casting Aria and your self buff after that will do nothing to Aria. Don't get fooled by the spell description, look at the maintained spells bar. Maybe the display of that one is just off. - /useabilityonplayer is bugged. I have several JCap macros, and sometimes (seemingly random) JCap goes to my target or implied target instead. The bug was introduced with the last LU, I /bug'ged it twice, no change so far. Hard to track really. Basically it goes like this. I target the mob, the mob has the MT targetted. I use my /useabilityonplayer macro. Sometimes, the MT will get JC instead of the player I want to use it on. Maybe it's because the player has JCap immunity at the time? I experimented with that out of combat, that isn't the reason. So I have no clue what causes it, and I doubt that ProfitUI is BSing me. Use that command with care at the moment.

[ForgottenFoundling]

The only issue I have with the /useabilityonplayer macro is it will sometimes, erroneously, say that my target is immune, but if i click it again the spell works fine.

[Krilinye]

<cite>ForgottenFoundling wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only issue I have with the /useabilityonplayer macro is it will sometimes, erroneously, say that my target is immune, but if i click it again the spell works fine.</blockquote> With the /useability command, or the new Macros, you cant queue a spell properly, so if you press your useability macro while fighting, it will cast it on your target instead (ie. if you have a mob as target, it will most likely hit the MT) so you gotta be sure your not casting at all or it wont target the right person.

[ForgottenFoundling]

That just isn't my experience...  I monitor my targets and they always receive the buff and get immunity.

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>Krilinye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ForgottenFoundling wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only issue I have with the /useabilityonplayer macro is it will sometimes, erroneously, say that my target is immune, but if i click it again the spell works fine.</blockquote> With the /useability command, or the new Macros, you cant queue a spell properly, so if you press your useability macro while fighting, it will cast it on your target instead (ie. if you have a mob as target, it will most likely hit the MT) so you gotta be sure your not casting at all or it wont target the right person.</blockquote> I tried that today, and you are 100% right. If I queue my /useabilityon macro, it goes to the target or implied target (whatever is a friendly). Do not queue macros with /useabilityonplayer.

[aelder~]

<p>I have stopped queueing songs (except when PotM is up) and now click when available, under the (perhaps erroneous) belief that you don't get your autoattack melee swings between queued songs.  Correct or incorrect?</p><p>As for Jester's, with the new macros, I have added another hotbar and have jester's buttons for my group members and other key raid folks.  Its great because you never lose target and the buttons refresh with timer if you stick the JC icon on it (which it would not if you are still going with your old /useabilityon macro).</p><p> Cheers,</p>

[Nainitsuj]

<cite>ForgottenFoundling wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Antipaladin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why would you run in a caster group? Makes even less sense dps-wise.</blockquote><p> uh maybie because were CASTER BUFFERS ?????? ya think ? dirges buff Melee we buff casters </p><p>were designed to run in the caster group </p><p>if you dont know that simple fact then obviously you dont belong posting advice to ANYONE on being a troub </p></blockquote><p> Spider, learn a bit more about the synergies between classes.  Do this and you will find that to truly maximize dps, it's best to have melee scouts and casters together in a troub group in order for each to get the best buffs of all classes.  "Caster Group" refers to a raid building 4 casters, a healer and a troubie.</p><p> Fury - great for casters with the group int boost/vim - also great for dps scouts with agitate.</p><p>Sorcs/Conjs - all have proc songs that can benefit a dps scout</p><p>Yes, dirges do buff melee dps quite well, but we have something to add too and our hate decreaser is the BEST thing for a dps scout.</p></blockquote><p>Wiz, Warlock, Conj, Necro (both using mage pet), Troub, Templar/inquisitor. (You can swap the summoners with enchanters with varying results) Really, it doesn't matter which mages you put in the group, as long as you can do the following:</p><p>Jester's on the healer. DR on the pull POTM Jesters on yourself when it's up.</p><p>POTM will be up 50 seconds after the fight starts with DR running every 3:30  Average trash fight is what.. 1:30 - 3 min depending on how many are in the raid? So 1 min of POTM with 1 min cap immunity to burn.  </p><p>No mixed scout / mage group is going to touch this group's dps.</p><p>And any summoner still using scout pet is seriously hurting the raid's dps.  Replace them with a swash.</p><p>*EDIT* Trash fight length is based off of EH </p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> DR on the pull</p><p>DR? Not able to figure out what that stands for, sorry. I'll probably slap my forhead when you tell me, but I'm willing to risk that. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Tri]

divine recovery, end line cleric AA when you use that with PotM it's all about not over aggroing <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[aelder~]

Divine recovery is like jester's cap, but for the whole group (iirc, 24 seconds of 50% faster casting speed + 33% faster recasts).  You hit the cleric with Jester's first so that the cleric can use divine recovery again sooner (something like every 90 seconds instead of 3 minutes).

[Tsarunai]

I'm normally in a grp where people hold back a little to prevent pulling aggro. I also box a Coercer and place Harmonious Link on 2 of the 4 mages that are normally grouped with me. The run speed AA is pointless, the cast time boost is a joke, I don't care about Wis and sure as hell don't need another deaggro ability (although I have pulled aggro in some PU raids). So, I've basically decided that DKtM isn't worth the AAs spent to get it and spec'd more into DMG. I have Str steup at 8-7-4-8-1, Agi at 4-8 and Int at 8. I consistantly parse 800+ an have broken 1k+ in single target mobs on many occasions. Best parse I can remember was 1300+ on a group of mobs. I consistantly outdamage Rangers as well. Usually ending most pickup raids in the top 5. Str and Int are at 600 even self buffed and can reach 800+ easily raid buffed. I rarely cast precision as I've seen it kill more mages than help jester's I'll cast on healers more than anything but generally don't cast it on trash period. My buff setup is almost always Alin's, Raxxyl's, Bria's, Daelis amd Aria. I'll drop Daelis' for resists when needed but that's uncommon. I never put up haste and Dove song cast pretty rarely. I ask every mage in the group for their proc buff by name and if a Fury is in group always ask for Agitate. I have a dual screen setup so I can watch parses as the fights progress and after watching thousands of em, I'll only take the Grinning Dirk out of my primary to switch to claymore only long enough to hit Turnstrike and swap right back. I have Grinning, Wurmy, Qeynos Cutlass, Absolution and Vyemm's Fang. I still use the Dirk/ Wurmy combo as it tends to parse higher. Our potential for damage is there. I've just come to the realization that most mages don't require the pathetic boost that some of our AAs give them. That's just my take on it.

[Vraneth]

aelder~ wrote: <blockquote>Divine recovery is like jester's cap, but for the whole group (iirc, 24 seconds of 50% faster casting speed + <b>33% faster recasts</b>).  You hit the cleric with Jester's first so that the cleric can use divine recovery again sooner (something like every 90 seconds instead of 3 minutes).</blockquote> DR is not faster recasts, Divine recover cuts casting speed with 50% and recover speed with 33%, meaning you will chain CA's and spells faster together, it does not affect reuse speed at all.

[Vraneth]

<cite>Nainitsuj wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ForgottenFoundling wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Antipaladin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why would you run in a caster group? Makes even less sense dps-wise.</blockquote><p> uh maybie because were CASTER BUFFERS ?????? ya think ? dirges buff Melee we buff casters </p><p>were designed to run in the caster group </p><p>if you dont know that simple fact then obviously you dont belong posting advice to ANYONE on being a troub </p></blockquote><p> Spider, learn a bit more about the synergies between classes.  Do this and you will find that to truly maximize dps, it's best to have melee scouts and casters together in a troub group in order for each to get the best buffs of all classes.  "Caster Group" refers to a raid building 4 casters, a healer and a troubie.</p><p> Fury - great for casters with the group int boost/vim - also great for dps scouts with agitate.</p><p>Sorcs/Conjs - all have proc songs that can benefit a dps scout</p><p>Yes, dirges do buff melee dps quite well, but we have something to add too and our hate decreaser is the BEST thing for a dps scou</p></blockquote><p>Wiz, Warlock, Conj, Necro (both using mage pet), Troub, Templar/inquisitor. (You can swap the summoners with enchanters with varying results) Really, it doesn't matter which mages you put in the group, as long as you can do the following:</p><p>Jester's on the healer. DR on the pull POTM Jesters on yourself when it's up.</p><p>POTM will be up 50 seconds after the fight starts with DR running every 3:30  Average trash fight is what.. 1:30 - 3 min depending on how many are in the raid? So 1 min of POTM with 1 min cap immunity to burn.  </p><p>No mixed scout / mage group is going to touch this group's dps.</p><p>And any summoner still using scout pet is seriously hurting the raid's dps.  Replace them with a swash.</p><p>*EDIT* Trash fight length is based off of EH </p></blockquote>Does it matter what a single group parses, [Removed for Content] no, it's all about raidwide DPS and IF you set it up that way I promise you that the raidwide DPS would go down.

[aelder~]

<p>Thanks for the correction on Divine Recovery, Slixxer.  I was talking from memory and trying to recall what someone's raid spam said.  The 33% faster recovery then isn't a big deal for us, but I imagine its more of an issue for the mages.</p><p>Regarding caster group or mixed group, its really not such a dichotomy as folks are making it out to be.  If you have a mage heavy guild, caster groups make sense.  If you have a decent population of scouts / surplus fighters, mixed groups will share group buffs the best for total DPS--they need to be mixed in so you don't get an unbuffed G4 of odds and ends.  </p><p>Seems to me folks just aren't thinking outside of their particular flavor of their world,</p>

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>way back at the beginning of this post it was mentioned to use a +5 peirce (or +5 slash if you have a sword) on your weapon over a proc.</p><p>Can anyone elaborate on this, as my trouby just aquired the fabled compoenent for an adornment, and i was unsure whether the +5 is better on a weapon, or getting a damage proc on it.</p>

[Pogopuschel]

I'm usually in a group that ist just sucky for me, so I have like 360-370 pierce or slash and that's only maxed skill plus a few items. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> For the hit chance, the +5 just didn't seem worth it, I hit level 74 epic trash for roughly 65% of the time with or without the adorns. I did not make a comparison for orange cons, maybe it was more of a help there. What certainly is a waste on any long delay weapon is the direct damage adorns - they might be awesome on e.g. Windrazor? That is if you don't miss too many auto-attacks ofc...

[Mildavyn]

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote> - Aria's proc damage is based on the Troub's intelligence while you put up Aria. Casting Aria and your self buff after that will do nothing to Aria. Don't get fooled by the spell description, look at the maintained spells bar. Maybe the display of that one is just off. </blockquote><p> Would like to correct this, the proc damage of Aria is based entirely on the INT of the individual group members. Increasing your own INT will not in anyway increase the proc numbers that your group mates will get. This is a display bug.</p><p>ARIA PROC NOT BASED ON THE TROUB'S PERSONAL INT SCORE< BUT ON THE INDIVIDUAL INT OF HIS GROUP MEMBERS.</p><p>Thank you.</p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<p>As far as weapon adorns go, pierce helps, but I'm experimenting whether +10 pierce is better than +2% spell crits or not.  I've recently picked up a t6 fabled 1h piercer adorn to add 1% spell crit.  My rationale is that due to the daze on potm, it might be good to have spell crit over melee only items since we can't swing during precision.</p><p>The jury is still out, but it might work out well.</p><p> The way I'm going to work it eventually is 2 +piercers, 2 power proccers and 2 spell critters.</p>

[SpiralDown]

Paikis@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote> - Aria's proc damage is based on the Troub's intelligence while you put up Aria. Casting Aria and your self buff after that will do nothing to Aria. Don't get fooled by the spell description, look at the maintained spells bar. Maybe the display of that one is just off. </blockquote><p> Would like to correct this, the proc damage of Aria is based entirely on the INT of the individual group members. Increasing your own INT will not in anyway increase the proc numbers that your group mates will get. This is a display bug.</p><p>ARIA PROC NOT BASED ON THE TROUB'S PERSONAL INT SCORE< BUT ON THE INDIVIDUAL INT OF HIS GROUP MEMBERS.</p><p>Thank you.</p></blockquote>Just to back that up. We raided with two troubs in Freethinker's.  Each group had a wizzy and a warlock.  Was a very mage heavy day.  Anyway, his int was half that of mine and the numbers from Aria were basically the same for both groups (zonewide total dmg, avg dmg per hit, ect...) 

[jedce]

<p>hi fairly new troub here. </p><p>i run with a raid guild on everfrost</p><p>usualy group set is me, fury, and 4 casters of varying class depending on what zone we hit and what mob we afe fighting.i must agree with the poster talking about our utility in respect to caster buffes and procs.if your not running them and castign them as often as they come up.. your selling your raid dps short..i didint have to do all kinds of testing to see this.. very simple.. i just watched the pase.. granted it was 2 diff zones but i didint want to hinder the raid much for personal piece fo mind.</p><p>1 run was in EH, i just took note of the dps the casters and fury in my group was doing on average</p><p>later that week we hit DT and i did the same but had respec'd and put on diff gear for personal dps</p><p>yes my personal dps went up buy a couple hundred in DT over EH, but on average the dps of the casters/fury in my group went down about the same...per person.</p><p>so the choice seems fairly simple to me.... up my own by a couple 3 hundred and lower 5 peeps by about that or maybe a bit less(like i say i didint study it to hard) ... or up 5 other poeple by 200-300 and still manage to eek out anywhere from 500-800 for myself and just take satisfaction in the assist <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> no sig im lazy</p><p>Lbas Presly-Troubadour</p><p>Deaths Door - Everfrost</p>

[napalmpt]

Hey all conjy here but have a troub alt, Love what you guys can do for us for dps =D jsut thought i would drop a line and say that i think teh reason /useablityonperson with JC doesnt work is cause all the abilities in a macro work at the same time. So if you /target SOandSO and /useability jc in one macro it might not have time to switch targets for JC because both commands are happening simultaniously. there for it could go to whoever you have targeted while using the macro or the person the macro was actually intended for.  Might be easier to just make a /target SOandSO macro and keep jc hot button seperate.

[Pogopuschel]

Hi there. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That's not correct, the commands of a macro execute one by one, not simultaneously. Aside from that, the issue is with the /useabilityonplayer command, it's not that I use /target and then /useability. For /useabilityonplayer, the first parameter is the person you want to use a spell/skill on, and the second one is the name of the skill/spell. The new macro system executes that very command as if you would type it. What I would expect to happen is that if I hit that macro (or use that command) while casting another spell/using a CA on another target, it still goes to the player that I specified in the command. This is not the case! Example: I'm trioing with a fighter (Salgor) and a healer (Shelley), the fighter pulls a mob and tanks it. My target is the mob, the mob's target (hence my implied target) is the tank. I cast Eli's Thunderous Drumming on the mob. While half of the casting time, I use the command "/useabilityonplayer Shelley Jester's Cap" (or a macro that does the same, doesn't matter). Now JC will go to the tank instead (the first friendly target in my "target list&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. If I had waited until after I finished casting Eli's (not sure if I also have to wait for the recovery timer to elapse), it would have reached Shelley. Despite several bug reports, the problem persists. :/

[Naud]

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>way back at the beginning of this post it was mentioned to use a +5 peirce (or +5 slash if you have a sword) on your weapon over a proc.</p><p>Can anyone elaborate on this, as my trouby just aquired the fabled compoenent for an adornment, and i was unsure whether the +5 is better on a weapon, or getting a damage proc on it.</p></blockquote> If you can't hit the mob the weapon won't proc.  +5 on pierce and slash is intended to give you a more successful  rate of landing swings which =more DPS and more Proccing on already proccing weapons.  I havent done this yet myslef gonna wait for a really good and slow weapon before trying this out.