mystic agro on pulls

[AvalonSpirit]

<p>okay me and the search engine are having a slight disagreement atm, so i'm just going to ask....</p><p>how do you folks manage the agro that your buffs / wards generate on the pull?  My brother made a mystic and is about to hit T7.  unfortunately we dont have many mystics in the guild for him to talk to about this, and the agro on the pull is presenting a problem.  so i'm looking for any tips that either he can try, or that other members of the group can do the help out with this.  </p><p>during my talks with him i've learned that he doesnt not pre-ward on pulls.  that the initial agro problem comes from the two passive buffs,  the one with miti and ward, and the hp buff plus ward.  </p><p>any comments / suggestions / feedback you may have is appreciated.  thankyou in advance.</p>

[Greggthegrmreapr]

<cite>AvalonSpirit wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>okay me and the search engine are having a slight disagreement atm, so i'm just going to ask....</p><p>how do you folks manage the agro that your buffs / wards generate on the pull?  My brother made a mystic and is about to hit T7.  unfortunately we dont have many mystics in the guild for him to talk to about this, and the agro on the pull is presenting a problem.  so i'm looking for any tips that either he can try, or that other members of the group can do the help out with this.  </p><p>during my talks with him i've learned that he doesnt not pre-ward on pulls.  that the initial agro problem comes from the two passive buffs,  the one with miti and ward, and the hp buff plus ward.  </p><p>any comments / suggestions / feedback you may have is appreciated.  thankyou in advance.</p></blockquote><p> The only time I ever pull aggro before the tank gets aggro is if I pre ward, and he doesn't get to taunt, or its resisted.  </p><p>Another thing I have noticed is that if the spell hits the tank the moment the mob aggros, it will say screw the tank and shoot directly to you.  Manage this by warding a few seconds before the tank even goes to pull.</p><p>I don't really recall a specific incident of Runic Aegis pulling aggro on me.</p>

[SweNid]

If they go fast maybe the ward from the previous fight is still up? Happens to me sometimes when the tank bodypulls.

[Triyton]

<p>My technique has become to pre-ward with a group ward instead of with the single ward.  Or both on a raid.</p><p>Not only does it provide greater protection, if the mob goes for me instead of the tank, for <u>any</u> reason including a body-pull, it will protect me and give the tank time to get the mob back under control.</p>

[AziBam]

<cite>Triyton wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My technique has become to pre-ward with a group ward instead of with the single ward.  Or both on a raid.</p><p>Not only does it provide greater protection, if the mob goes for me instead of the tank, for <u>any</u> reason including a body-pull, it will protect me and give the tank time to get the mob back under control.</p></blockquote>I do the exact same thing for the exact same reason.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I'm less likely to die if I use the group ward (raiding).  Not sure what exactly is happening for the OP's brother.  If we are discussing a group setting them I'm guessing that the issue is carryover wards from the previous fight as someone else mentioned above. Never heard of our mitigation buff generating any aggro ever.  Also, keep in mind that all the healers have some flavor of mitigation buffs.  Our runic line (small regenerating group ward) was a problem for a while after LU13 but that was fixed long ago.  I can see a body pull or adds sometimes creating some initial aggro but that happens with any healer type really if there is a lingering heal/ward up.  In a normal pull (of any type including body pulls) the tank should be able to taunt the mobs off before more than maybe one hit has landed on the healer.  Perhaps the tank isn't taunting quite soon enough?  A good tank should have at least their single and group taunts landed ASAP in the fight which will get aggro off of any healer.

[Amanodel]

If the tank body pulls and the first thing to happen is your brother's dog dying, then the AA ability Aura of Warding is probably to blame. It's a great AA for most situations, but there are a number of variables that can make it more dangerous than it's worth. If your group is moving from encounter to encounter pretty fast, if the tank is getting resisted/not taunting early enough, or if every encounter opens with an AE, the shaman will have a hard time keeping aggro off the dog and himself. If your brother has this AA, what's happening is dogdog is proc'ing a group ward, which is sometimes still up at the beginning of the next fight. This helps keep mages alive if the mob opens with an AE, but if the tank can't get aggro before that happens, dogdog will die, and then the mob will be on him. If this is your brother's problem, then tell him to cancel Aura of Warding for a bit. He'll get a feel for when it's safe to keep it up (usually) or when it needs to be off (infrequently).

[Pelda]

<p>I play both a Guardian and a Mystic.  I have definitely noticed that the Mystic will grab aggro on pulls when I body pull.  It is especially true for group mobs and I do manage to get hit by the first one to us but the others are still farther out.  The regenerating ward is what I suspect pulls the aggro of the rest of the group and sometimes the first one that hit me as well.  </p><p> Alot of this will depend on your puller.  I will often do a group buff if its al onger pull or they are spread out.  This will give me more hate than the buffed wards and by the time the entire group gets to me I can use my group taunt.  Also a common mistake tanks will do is use their group taunt too soon to where the ones further away do not get affected by the taunt.  Those are the ones that go straight for the mystic.</p>

[Surly_Smurf]

<cite>AvalonSpirit wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>okay me and the search engine are having a slight disagreement atm, so i'm just going to ask....</p><p>how do you folks manage the agro that your buffs / wards generate on the pull?  My brother made a mystic and is about to hit T7.  unfortunately we dont have many mystics in the guild for him to talk to about this, and the agro on the pull is presenting a problem.  so i'm looking for any tips that either he can try, or that other members of the group can do the help out with this.  </p><p>during my talks with him i've learned that he doesnt not pre-ward on pulls.  that the initial agro problem comes from the two passive buffs,  the one with miti and ward, and the hp buff plus ward.  </p><p>any comments / suggestions / feedback you may have is appreciated.  thankyou in advance.</p></blockquote><p>1) The amount of agro you get off of the small regenerating ward is minimal (tho still there, I believe). It was a LOT worse in the past than now.  I cannot remember the last time I actually got agro on pull just from this buff being up, even with a pick-up group's tank who doesn't know anything about tanking for mystics.</p><p>2) By "hp buff" do you mean Bolster? In my experience, Bolster only pulls agro to the mystic if it finishes casting at the same moment the tank is pulling the mob. If memory serves applying just about single-target buff to the tank while he's pulling would have a similar effect, so that general rule applies. Make sure Bolster is cast BEFORE the tank pulls or immediately after and he's gotten a taunt off or some DPS agro started.</p><p>3) Why do mystics get a lot of agro on the pull? All of the class-specific special heals (Wards, Regens, Reactives) draw a lot of aggro. What makes wards uniquely helpful also make them uniquely dangerous for the caster (us). I don't claim to know the hardcore mathematical mechanics, but basically every point of heal on the tank is going to generate some hate from the mob towards the caster (the healer, not the warded/healed tank). Someone with more patience can go do a search for what the actual math is, otherwise enjoy my simplist view. </p><p>When a mob hits a warded tank, the ward will absorb every point of (post armor-mitigated) damage that would be hitting the tank up to the maximum value of the ward. A reactive or regen only fires off in certain predetermined increments. So for the sake of argument let's say 1 pt of heal = 1 pt of mob agro. The mob hits the tank with a reactive heal on him. The reactive's value is 500pts per tick. In that instant the mob hits the tank for 2000 pts of damage and the reactive fires off 500pts of heal and 500pts of hate are generated towards the healer for every tick, but since the next few ticks are spread out over time, the tank is generating more hate from taunts and DPS and procs to exceed the amount of hate being generated by the healer. Next let's say the tank is pre-warded by a shaman with a 2000pt ward. The mob hits for 2000pts of damage again. The ward absorbs all 2000pts of damage. 2000 pts of hate are generated towards the healer up front. See the difference? Now the tank is playing catch-up on the hate-list.  </p><p>Someone who knows hard-core game mechanics can feel free to point out the flaws in my example but it's just general numbers for the sake of clarity.</p><p>I don't have any magical advice for the OP's mystic friend. I play a 70 mystic and mostly play with 70 tanks who raid and are used to agro control. My first guess is that at least while grouping, the mystic is grouping with tanks that don't understand Shaman agro and are body-pulling and not getting a taunt off soon enough or are getting resisted or are too cheap to upgrade their Adept 1 taunts to keep pace with the shaman ward agro. The fact that you say he is the only mystic in the guild may mean that the tanks have not learned to tank with a shaman healing. Trust me, I've met many tanks who had to LEARN how to tank with a shamanic healer.</p><p>There is a price to be paid for the efficiency of Shaman warding. Part of the price is that wards are power-thirsty spells. Another is their agro. It's just part of being a shaman. </p>

[Zeliedog]

<cite>Surly_Smurf wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't have any magical advice for the OP's mystic friend. I play a 70 mystic and mostly play with 70 tanks who raid and are used to agro control. My first guess is that at least while grouping, the mystic is grouping with tanks that don't understand Shaman agro and are body-pulling and not getting a taunt off soon enough or are getting resisted or are too cheap to upgrade their Adept 1 taunts to keep pace with the shaman ward agro. The fact that you say he is the only mystic in the guild may mean that the tanks have not learned to tank with a shaman healing. Trust me, I've met many tanks who had to LEARN how to tank with a shamanic healer.<p>There is a price to be paid for the efficiency of Shaman warding. Part of the price is that wards are power-thirsty spells. Another is their agro. It's just part of being a shaman. </p></blockquote>I totally agree with this.  It may not be fair to put the burden on the tank, but if the tank has upgraded taunts and uses them well, then we are able to do our job much better.  Waiting until the tank has aggro before beginning to ward is a huge waste of our potential, and then we are playing catch-up, which we aren't good at. And tanks do have to learn how to do it.  Once I was in Obelisk with a tank who, on every pull, would body pull and then look around in confusion as the mob went straight for me...over and over...but with a good tank I can pre-ward no problem.

[Finora]

<blockquote><p>1) The amount of agro you get off of the small regenerating ward is minimal (tho still there, I believe). It was a LOT worse in the past than now.  I cannot remember the last time I actually got agro on pull just from this buff being up, even with a pick-up group's tank who doesn't know anything about tanking for mystics.</p></blockquote><p>Definatly still there on the miti buff. If anyone other than the tank gets hit first by some add and the tank doesn't snag agro immediately it'll make a beeline for me. Not from across the zone like they did when it was broken, but the agro is certainly still there. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Also on the resisted taunts, but a smart tank knows where the critter is heading so will be on it.</p><p>Any mystic is going to have trouble with agro in a situation where the tank doesn't understand how we are different from clerics and druids. Tanks have to be quick on the taunt even when body pulling. A tank that understands mystic agro generation will keep you from getting hit (or at least keep you from being hit much) unless taunts are resisted or there are adds when taunts are down. </p><p>That being said, taunts are resisted quite a bit in some instances, especially if the poor tank hasn't found master level taunts and is making due with adept 3 or god forbid adept 1 or apprentice 4.</p><p>(man I can NOT spell today)</p>