What do you want from crafting?

[Deson]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ilucide wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>My initial response was because this was the only recipe set you announced at the time and <i>an admitted desire to see the loosening of recipe dependence on adventuring</i>. </blockquote> I don't know that I've ever said that I had a desire to lessen dependence on adventuring. If anything, I'd like to see the crafting system more closely work with adventuring, so that craftable items can compete in the marketplace. What I'd like to see ideally is a different topic, but in a nutshell, I'd like to see a base layer of stuff to level up on (handcrafted), combined with a much more properly flavored series of mastercrafted to fabled items that have recipes and drops from specific zones. I'd like to see tradeskills and adventuring support each other, rather than being completely separate entities. Examples include recipes that are specific to faction camps, or recipes for long-lost weapons recovered from dungeons, rather than mobs just dropping 'advanced books'. (Say, why does a bear know how to make tradeskill stuff anyway?) I tend to like how the Nest recipes (though I am a bit biased here, virtual cookies to anyone who can guess why) work on a general level in that they enhance zone lore, are valuable to adventurers and offer crafters a good choice of what to make. Plus, because they did require (to a certain extent) adventuring, the rewards were able to be very worthwhile for their era. But I'm totally off topic here, so I'll get back to working on other things. <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -Ilu </blockquote>We completely agree. That's why I stopped where I did. As said, I'm waiting for someone to post that the thread restores are done before firing up a new thread that says a lot of what old ones did. Thanks for being so open and communicating so much with us so we can clear things like this up. </blockquote>I open with this quote because had I actually read what he said better, I would have had a very different response. I'm not going to rehash old issues here and I'm asking others not to do it either. The purpose of this thread isn't even direct feedback per se since I'm not looking for anything specific like class mergers or anything else. All I want discussed here is simple- what do you want/did you expect from EQ2 crafting? My response to Ilucide came so fast because he did indeed post exactly what I wanted...sort of. I've always been a strong advocate of an integrated adventure/crafter relationship and rewards for those who engage in both at all levels.He also mentioned the Nest recipes, something I have touted many times as a prime example of solid integration. The disagreement though comes not from what was said but, from what was not said- there is 0 mention of crafters earning anything from actually crafting. I really don't care if it's now or a year from now but, I want crafting to have means to earn it's own way. I've posted many times about crafters earning faction and participating in events to earn recipes that make them stand out from those who do it just to grind it up. Probably the best event driven crafting I've seen in game, which was also solid integrated content, was the KoS spires. I want to see more of it. A lot more. I bought EQ2 based on many premises- 2 most important here were that it was built on being a lot friendlier to so called"causals" and that whatever play style you chose, you'd be able to excel at it. I got into crafting expecting that when I put in the effort, the reward would be more than worth it and I'm not just talking money. Every totem, paper and quill I crafted was with the goal that when it was all said and done, my efforts would make me sought out. I looked at all the factions in the game and saw the great potential for unique content that actual crafting could unlock. With all the tools recently added to crafting I see it more so. For a crafter to be unique, it can't just be based on tier, adventuring and networking ties. Those are integral to be sure but, the crafter itself has to put in more effort than just having friends and money.I'm still looking for those events that allow a person who chose crafting as their primary play style to stand out. Using the "Secrets of..." books (and their new EH derivative) as an example, I like those being raid dropped recipes but, what if there were crafting earned recipes that used the same components for a different result? What if your dedication to the cause of the militia allowed you to use those drops for a comparable Warrior bp? This would not be a reward for incidental adventuring but a genuine reward for the effort and dedication  put forth by the crafter and adventurer both in their own spheres. That's what I'm looking for and what I mean whenever I mention the "independent crafter". It's not actual independence but the ability to use ones own skills to advance. Sure the adventure based items will be a great boon but they must be in conjunction with crafting effort. The adventure stuff can go in first because really, it's easier;it's already there whereas crafting would have to built from scratch. I'm just looking for something that says eventually, crafter effort will be be rewarded through crafting.That was the expectation I bought and to me the expectation implicit in a sales pitch that stressed co-equality.

[Meio]

Agree, I also want a progression for crafter without anything adventure related (killing mobs). It would be sad if the crafter progression would be: TS L70 -> Adv. L70 -> Raiding There should be something for crafters on their own. Otherwise crafting gets a hobby for adventurer. If its with this system not possible to give crafter something worthwile, then SOE should implement something which needs as much crafter skill as clearing a instance. There could be a crafter equipment line with crafter stats like there is one for adventurer. But this equipment should then also be necessary to be able to complete this new jobs. Of course the crafter equipment should not drop from raid mobs, it should be gained through crafter quests or through this new jobs. Crafting how it is now should only be the base for casual crafters. Hardcore crafter should have something to look forward, and no it should not involve adventuring <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rast]

<p>Simple.</p><ul><li>Crafting should not be a hobby, it should be a distinct and seperate playstyle</li><li>Crafting should not be second fiddle to Adventuring/Raiding and Adventuring/Raiding should not be second fiddle to crafting, they are seperate entities ans should be treated as such.  Different progressions, different goals.</li><li>Crafting should be able to compete with any gear dropped in the game, not necessarily better, but competitive</li><li>There is nothing about adventuring/raiding that should make anyone a better crafter, period.  Adventuring/Raiding should not be the means to increase ones crafting.  Sorry, but I'm sick of learning my 'great secrects of armoring from bears!</li><li>Just because I can make the gear without raiding, doesn't mean that the materials for fabled gear are not from raids, people need to learn that the recipe and the fabled material are two entirely seperate concepts </li><li>More factions for crafters and more ways for them to differentate themselves by what factions they choose</li><li>More crafter gear, harder combines</li></ul><p>I think that is enough for a start <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Terron]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ilucide wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know that I've ever said that I had a desire to lessen dependence on adventuring. If anything, I'd like to see the crafting system more closely work with adventuring, so that craftable items can compete in the marketplace. What I'd like to see ideally is a different topic, but in a nutshell, I'd like to see a base layer of stuff to level up on (handcrafted), combined with a much more properly flavored series of mastercrafted to fabled items that have recipes and drops from specific zones. I'd like to see tradeskills and adventuring support each other, rather than being completely separate entities. Examples include recipes that are specific to faction camps, or recipes for long-lost weapons recovered from dungeons, rather than mobs just dropping 'advanced books'. (Say, why does a bear know how to make tradeskill stuff anyway?) I tend to like how the Nest recipes (though I am a bit biased here, virtual cookies to anyone who can guess why) work on a general level in that they enhance zone lore, are valuable to adventurers and offer crafters a good choice of what to make. Plus, because they did require (to a certain extent) adventuring, the rewards were able to be very worthwhile for their era. But I'm totally off topic here, so I'll get back to working on other things. <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -Ilu </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote>What I want from crafting is to be able to make stuff that people will want to use. I do not want there to be a base layer of recipes intended only for leveling up on. Even handcrafted stuff should be good enough to consider using, though I can accept a bit of padding with less useful stuff. Advanced recipes dropping from bears is no less silly than weapons, armour, and adept books dropping from bears. In a game whose economy is based on armed robbery such things are inevitable. Anyway that is less silly than recipes that can only be used a limited number of times. Adventuring and tradeskilling have a natural way to work together, through the market. Adventuring creates money which could then be spent on crafted goods. Unfortunately some adventurers are so used to getting things by violence that they complain when crafters try to make a profit. Adventuring can also provide materials for crafting especially via transmuting (though that could do with improving), and rare materials from raids is another good way. Adventurer's finding the advanced recipes is a way they interact currently via the market. Apart from the few consumable items, advanced recipes are the the only real chance of crafters making money, so they need to be fairly common, but having some special ones such as the Bloodlines recipes and Ancient Teachings makes things more interesting. So more like that would be nice. I would like to see recipes added that are more difficult to make, like some mobs are easier to kill than others and the more diffcult ones give better rewards. This would make items that boost tradeskills worthwhile, and not just the fluff they currently are. I'd like increasing your skills made harder. Last week I levelled a crafter and she got all 5 increases to take her to the new max on the first combine. Something like one fairly good chance of a skill increase for each combine with that chance reduced if the quality is less than pristine, and for each failed counter, with low penalities at low level increasing as the skill gets higher. I'd like to see more ways to get recipes, including gaining faction, and more quests for recipes. I'd like there to be a way to gain faction with at least one of the courts in Maj'dul by tradeskilling, to gain the same access to T6 tradeskill recipes as adventurers can currently get. Perhaps one of the barterlords could offer writs which would need to be completed in Maj'dul and which would give status with the Court of Coin. I'd like to see some for of group crafting. Such a quest offered to someone to organise a group of similar crafters to do something like a rush order writ for 6x as many combines with each member contributing. For example, the blacksmith in NQ might have a rush order for weapons and armour to equip some new members of the militia, but his assistants are down with flu so he asks for help. Since organising a group would require work and the risk would be greater as one member not performing could cause failure for the group, greater rewards that normal for writs would be justified, such as a special no-trade recipe for the person who organised the quest.

[FoxRiverRanger]

<p>I would like to see crafting developed into the full game promised. To reach that end I would like to see:</p><ul><li>End-game progression that is accomplished by, crafting. Not by drops from adventurer trash. A real reason to continue crafting and developing as a crafter. Make crafters earn their recipes by crafting. Adventurers do not need to be a crafter to level and work through their progression, crafters should not need to be adventurers to level and work through their progression.</li><li>Accept that crafting is a grind. It is not a secondary skill that one should be allowed to level concurrent to adventure without a comparable investment of time and effort. (Classes may need balancing, but tuning them all to sages would be a mistake). Paying monthly fees does not guarantee fabled gear, it should not guarantee a high level crafter (and certainly not a full set of crafters so a player never need interact with others).</li><li>Make the crafting process engaging. Pristine should be the result of attention to the process not spamming durability buffs. Failure to counter any event should result in loss of durability and/or progress. Maximum durability should be a variable that drops as events are missed and time limits exceeded (miss a couple of Major events and pristine is impossible). If a crafter is engaged with the process during a combine the feeling of grinding is reduced.</li><li>True progression within the crafting process. Mastercrafted recipes should be harder with more adverse events than common, and fabled recipes even more so. A player does not face a ^^^ mob with the same expectations as a solo mob. Crafters should face the same escalation of risk of failure. A fabled recipe should be frought with events, damage, and power drains that affect both crafter and customer. There should be a real risk of death from improperly wielding the most powerful forces in crafting. A crafter that can manufacture pristine fabled should be sought after. Fabled crafting should not be the plaything of bored adventurers.</li></ul><p>Since the KoS reitemization and the simplification of the crafting process to 'facilitate development', adventurers have received copious amounts of crafting development time. Seven tiers of both tinkered and transmuted recipes, with a plethora of new effects coded and new skills added (many in direct competition with crafter goods). And now adventurers have been given end-game crafting progression, without crafting effort, including coding a new mechanic for limited use recipes. </p><p>With every release of additional 'crafting' content, and every post from a developer regarding crafting, it appears that the concept of crafting has morphed from a distinct and parrallel game interacting with adventuring into nothing more than a secondary skill for adventurers. I would like to know the long range goal for crafting. Clearly, not hidden within ambigous terms like 'high-end'. </p><p>When being a 'high-end' crafter means raiding, what does that have to do with crafting? When Ilucide says "faction camps" can a low adventure level crafter get there? Do you build faction by crafting? Or is it whack a MOB for faction adventuring that yet again rewards the adventurer with crafting content? Because killing mobs until faction is built is functunally the same as killing mobs until the recipe drops, adventuring not crafting.</p>

[Looker1010]

<p>Way back, at the dawn of time, when EQII was still an unreleased work in progress, SOE stated that crafting would be an equal part of the game, equal to but separate from adventuring and that pure crafters would be totally possible.</p><p>Well here I sit now with 9 crafters, one of each "flavor". Without my level 70 Warden to harvest for many of them they would not be able to craft since so many raws spawn only in areas of high aggro mob infestation. Purchasing raws in too expensive AND dependent on other non-crafters gathering anyway. Without my adventurers to give their low end sisters coin there would be no money for fuel - the prices for which, I believe are too high and that quantites needed are ridiculous. </p><p>So, what I want from crafting is what SOE promised - The ability for pure crafting to be a viable commodity.</p><p>Disclaimer: yes, before someone posts links, there have been people who successfully created pure crafters. Hats off to them. To me they are the exception. Most of us rely on adventurer alts to assist the crafting alts.</p>