Still nothing being done [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Kokus

03-05-2007, 05:13 PM

I'm really surprised that assassins world wide aren't complaining as much as maybe we ought to. I remember one thread a month or so ago where a dev essentially told us to shut up or he'd nerf us. We still have outstanding issues that need to be brought to dev attention that should not just be pushed away. I thought about editting my Current State of the Assassin post, but it's obvious that it does not get read. I asked for that post to be unstickied nearly a year ago and nothing was done.So it's time for a new post. This will have the same topic of discussion as the original Current State of the Assassin thread.We had that huge post about itemization. I couldn't begin to sift through all of those posts and most likely I bet most of them are ignored by the developers as well. Has anyone posted on our fabled set gear? Mainly concerning the 5 point set enhancement being absolutely ridiculous. 60 points on finishing blow.. I have many issues with this one. 1st, why is level 70 set gear affecting a level 58 ability. 2nd, why are we increasing a skill by less than 2% on 45 second recast ability? It seems absolutely pointless. If anything is going to be changed to finishing blow, why just a tiny damage increase? Suggestions? How about with the 5 set, finishing blow has a chance to outright kill the mob? or maybe increase the damage by 600 instead of 60. (I still believe that somehow '60' was just a typo)Ok, moving along. Our AA tree. It's been brought up before in a thread here, a thread there, and in one thread where we were told to shut up or get nerfed. Not enough can be said about our AA line. Quite simply, it stinks. Shall we go from there? Sure! I think the best class to compare AAs with are the class most similar to us. That's right, the swashbuckler. We're very similar, we are a melee based class with an aggro xfer. A year ago SoE listed Assassins as a tier 1 dps class, and the swashbuckler as a tier 2 dps class. I had written a comparison between our AA choices in detail. The problem with this is that people are going to think I'm screaming for a nerf to swashbucklers. Should they be nerfed? maybe. Their ability to do massive auto attack damage, and have AA lines in the rogue and swashbuckler lines that will help increase that auto attack damage greatly surpasses our mostly pvp oriented AA lines. We didn't get that much in the line of actual dps increasing AAs compared to other classes. It seems odd that they would ignore the primary fuction of our class when creating these AA lines. I was almost horrified when we didn't get an upgrade to murderous design, nor did we get an AA that affected it. Also the big slap in the face concerning apply poison.For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, this is an issue that came about with DoF was released. Apply poison is put on an ally, they can proc poison damage. If that poison ticks while we are stealthed, we have our stealth broken negating concealment, and making it extremely difficult for 7 of our attacks to be used. One of our AA lines is a big slap in the face. We can increase the chance that apply poison will break our stealth. Thanks alot! Not only that, but the final poison AA is largely pathetic. 15 seconds... FIFTEEN SECONDS!!! The only way this ability can be useful is if it was a permanent buff in some fashion (even with reduced functionality). Especially considering you're supposed to increase hemotoxin, but with this ability increasing hemotoxin seems a waste. So you avoid the hemotoxin, you avoid the apply poison, so you increase deaggro, and debuffs (but still somehow have to put the points in there somewhere, but obviously not apply poison). That's only if the ability was useful in the first place. Our poison line is a waste, swashbucklers get a permanent 5% proc chance incraese. Oh, they got what I wanted. Grats. Can't have everything though. At least our armor gives 10% (another reason to not go with the hemotoxin AA line)Is it class envy? yes, actually, yes. They can build themselves to do alot more dps, we can not. That's pretty much my main argument here. I'm not asking for a swashbuckler nerf. Although I do think a nerf may be warranted, I'm not asking for it. I'm asking for AAs that we can use to build ourselves for something more than pvp combat. 90% of the players are not doing pvp. A great solution would be to have 2 different AA trees depending on whether you are on a pvp server or not. I'm sure the pvp assassins don't care much for dealing an additional 20% damage with a DoT component of an ability.So let's go over the main points I'm trying to make:<ul><li>Finishing blow increase by 60 damage for 5 set item is pointless. Greatly increase the damage, or add a secondary effect or possible trigger.</li><li>Apply poison is still broken. It still breaks our stealth. The AA line that would "Improve" the ability actually just makes the problem worse.</li><li>AA points that can be used to greatly increase our damage output, or less pvp oriented AA lines giving something more interesting to choose from. Like our stealth + AE avoidance which is obviously a pvp ability, why not a PvE version that doesn't stealth?</li><li>Lack of a double attack choice. Many melee classes have the option to put themselves at some sort of disadvantage to deal more damage like Guardians and Swashbucklers. Why not something that makes us ponder taking a disadvantage for more dps as well?</li><li>Assassinate/Decpitate. 1 hour, or 15 minutes. It makes no difference. This ability needs to have its reuse lowered greatly. If wizards can potentially do 100k damage every 5 minutes ( I hate the wizard comparison but I think this one is quite valid ) why should we have to wait 15 to deal 14-30k?</li><li>Finally, and just as an afterthought. 2 Abilities just don't look right to me. Slaughtersault does less damage than Cloaked Assault, requires different positioning, has a longer recast. Why? Reduce it's recast, or increase its damage (or both). Same thing with Spitting Asp. Less damage than Neck Shot. Same recast, requires us to be behind the target unlike Neck Shot that can be done from the flank. More disadvantages of this ability, and less damage. Generally when an ability is harder to use, it deals more damage, not less.</li><li>Intoxication. Any DoT that we've had including hemotoxin poison had had it's duration lessened, and it's ticks quickened. This is the absolute proof of point concept. This ability has an insane lengh of time, with a painful 6 seconds between ticks. Reduce the duration of this ability to make it useful.</li><li>Frontload. 15 seconds is nothing. It makes running hemotoxin (which is in the same AA line) pointless. Increase duration, or lower recast, or lower the amount of trigger percentage change, or all 3.</li></ul>

Siclone

03-05-2007, 07:47 PM

" I remember one thread a month or so ago where a dev essentially told us to shut up or he'd nerf us."Really I love to see that, you think you can resurrect that comment from the Dev?I am not a big number cruncher geek or really that emotional attached to this detailed stuff, I just play to have fun and use what I have. But to give you my very general prospective on thisEvery class complains about things and thinks they need this or that. I just don't think things are as bad as the picture you paintYes we have worthless EoF AA's..but whats new,,we have worthless KoS AA's too. And the EoF AA's have some benefits, such as soloing and I don't know I like the ignorant bliss poison and I think the fact that Hemo poison has been upgraded and now is better then caustic in most cases is a positive. But yea compared to allot of classes we got stiffed some. Name a class since game release that has not got the short end of the stick on one subject or another. I guess I am missing something with the applied poison thing,,,It's a buff, I put it on the tank and that's it. Off we go, as far as I know, it stays till cancelled or death. I don't ever recall my stealth being broken by a poison tick. shrugThere are classes such as swashies that are a bit over powered compared to us, yes, but do you think that will last forever. The game is in consent updateSome of these points are valid but, I think most good assassins here with all the faults you point out, still are on the top of the parse chart, so, I put forth all classes have abilities that are faulty. I think we need a bit of a boost and I think sooner or later we will get it.

Mr. Dawki

03-05-2007, 09:42 PM

its still there in the achievement forumand the dev comment is still tehre as wellsince they never moved that thread over when they changed forum servers all the old posts are there but just bunched together, i tried to eliminate as much code as posible and just leave authors and textits about 500+ posts now. you should add these comments there

TwistedFaith

03-05-2007, 09:46 PM

Not to be a [Removed for Content] or anything but in KOS assasins were the top DPS hands down, now the other classes such as rangers have somewhat caught up due to their AA lines. Is this balance, I honestly dont know, balance by crap AA lines maybe that was SoE's intent?

steelbadger

03-05-2007, 10:27 PM

To be honest? I am happy with where we are. We still parse top, or very very near top of almost all raid parses, I'll admit that ManaBurn and LifeBurn get to me somewhat, but in the end we still do the kind of damage we are supposed to do. In my view we are pretty much balanced against most other dps classes, and see no point to ask for additional buffing, why campaign to be overpowered? <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Aanak

03-05-2007, 10:56 PM

This is the first I've heard about Apply Poison proc effecting our stealth... I've never noticed it myself. Are you sure this happens? It sure doesn't seem like it for me...Yes, our EoF lines blow. And while it hurts my pride a bit to see wizzy's manaburn in the 80+k range and necro's getting 4kdps parses and brigands in my guild out parsing me on solo mobs... when all is said and done, 9 times out of 10 my zonewide parse and total damage for the night is still the top of the list--usually by at least 200dps. In single groups doing instances, irregardless of group make up, fight by fight I'm top parse also 9 times out of 10...Could we use a little more DPS? Sure! Who'd turn down that?Personally, I'd like to just see more useful end line AAs-- something to help with Haste would be nice, further Crit% improvements, 10% increase to Decap (which in the scheme of things wouldn't do all that much to our DPS)... Something to help us reduce agro, or maybe avoid a few hits if we do grab it... There's lots of good ideas out there. But I think the poster before me was correct, and SOE used the AA lines to better balance the classes. I very seriously doubt we will ever see any changes (at least not drastic like people have suggested) to our EoF AA lines at this point.That said, I'm still quite content toping the parses the way I do. 95% of the time I end up 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in any parse--while others find themselves 1st, then 5th, then 4th, then 6th, then maybe 1st again... And I'm doing this in the MT group while providing solid hate for the MT, and without the DPS and other Melee buffs that the other scouts are getting in the DPS oriented groups. The fact that I can consistently parse in the top three spots like this is different than other classes that I've seen.I definitely have to work at it harder these days if I want to stay on top, though. But I don't really mind that.Honestly, the thing that bothers me the most these days about being an Assassin is the darn Leaderboard being chock-full-of-sploits and not being updated anymore. It's been a year since the exploit scores made their way to the list and it's really a bummer shooting for a high hit that is just buried below 60 bogus scores on the top 100... That really my main gripe right now.

Ritsa

03-06-2007, 05:42 AM

I've got to say that I agree with the above to posters. We're not in bad shape at the moment compared to the majority of classes. Granted that one or two classes are a bit out of balance at the moment (necros and illusionists spring to mind <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), but in general I'm finding myself always near the top of the parse in most zones and my gear is significantly worse than the majority of my fellow raiders. My one minor concern is about unstackable haste items. We will suffer diminishing returns from the large amount of +DPS effects and adrons far sooner than for instance a Ranger. It would be overpowered to allow current haste items to stack, but maybe SOE could add a stackable effct, similar to frenzy, which provided a minor buff to haste. Nihyn@Guk wrote: <blockquote>Honestly, the thing that bothers me the most these days about being an Assassin is the darn Leaderboard being chock-full-of-sploits and not being updated anymore. It's been a year since the exploit scores made their way to the list and it's really a bummer shooting for a high hit that is just buried below 60 bogus scores on the top 100... That really my main gripe right now.</blockquote> Yeah I have to agree with that, it would be great if they'd remove all those bogus melee hits.

HellRaiserXX

03-06-2007, 02:25 PM

I have noticed my stealth being broken at odd times and I cant figure out why, so maybe that is the reason. Honestly this is the first I have heard of Apply Poison breaking stealth so maybe its not as well known as you think, but it would explain why my stealth gets broken at random times completely screwing up my rhythem. If it can be proven and systematically duplicated to show it being bugged they will fix it. The problem is that SOE relys heavily on players to bring these kinds of things to attention and if the problem cant be duplicated at will it takes awhile to get it fixed. If any of you guys actually play on Test and are level 58+ maybe you can get a GM to let you test it. Basically get a grp mate, put Apply Poison on them, have the GM make it trigger 100% (if thats even possible) and see if it breaks your stealth when you use Masked Attack or similar ability.To address some of your other points. I agree that Finishing Blow on our set armor is pretty rediculous being as it is, but the other two set effects are pretty good, especially the full set, so I figure I want that effect for set 7 and I guess it doesnt bother me too much that set 5 is practically worthless, Im not going to not get all 7 just because 5 sucks. Id love to see something else, 600dmg sounds cool or like a 25% increase in dmg, but Im not really put off by just 60. I like Getaway how it is personally, especially when my stealth does get broken for whatever reason and I miss out my full combo, Ill often hit Getaway to put me back into stealth right away to get another one off. Has anyone really crunched the numbers as to how having Double Attack would affect a Dual wielding class? Rangers got some double attack in their EoF AAs and Im wondering how giving it to a dual wield class would affect that class' DPS. Instead of hitting twice you are hitting four times as opposed to the rogue hitting twice, but I dont know if dmg ratings and crit ratios etc would even that out.As for decapitate, with Perfectionist making it 10min and some gear making it even less its not too bad as it is imo. Sure wizards and necros can do 100K every 5min potentially, but I honestly havent seen it affect overall dmg much. In zonewides we all parse pretty close to the same and I outparse the wizards almost always in a zonewide. Now obviously there is a split in views on which is more important, the encounter at hand, or the zone as a whole so oppinions are going to vary. I am positive that reducing the reuse on decapitate will push our zonewide parses up above everyone else making us a very good target for a real nerf. I use intoxication more for the debuff than the damage in all honesty, its a pretty could offensive debuff when added to the other debuffs in the INT line and since it has such a long cast its pretty unreasonable to cast it while fighting unless you are in a joust type situation like matron for example.I dont disagree with you on any of the points you made except maybe decapitate needing to have its timer reduced further. Each of your points are valid and address potential weaknesses in our class many of which we are all aware of. As I go into more detail farther down, I personally do not feel that we are so bad off and I bet that that is one reason why there hasnt been much complaining.I am completely convinced that EoF AAs were an attempt to balance out the classes and for the most part they were very successful in doing that. Rangers got the boost they needed to actually compete with an assassin and other classes got definate boosts in various ways. Its not perfect, but it is a lot better than it has been in the past. Assassins were undeniably #1 DPS class in KoS, the good ones were so far ahead of the pack that it was pretty rediculous in all honesty. With this expansion not raising the level cap, SOE could not build vertically, they had to build horizantilly. Assassins were the top of the pyramid already and so there wasn't much vertical improvement that could be reasonably given to us. Other classes were farther down the pyramid and could be given more vertical improvement to bring them up to snuff, especially if they were in need of it. I have believed this for as long as I can think back, that the assassin class is the most stable and least in need of assistance than any of the other classes. We haven't been given that much in the past because we haven't needed it. Its like two young children in a classroom, one is very bright and doesn't need much assistance, the other struggles more and requires more assistance. The first child gets jealous of the attention the other is getting and demands to be treated the same, but in reality he doesn't need it. You've all seen this kind of thing with children. I hear it all the time that SOE has neglected the assassin class, that we never get any assistance etc etc. Really, we are just jealous cause all the other classes are getting attention and what not and we aren't, but the reality of it is that we really dont need it.Yes, there are things that probably could be improved with assassins and some the definately should be, but I think that is the case with most classes. I can empathize with how demoralizing it was to see our new AAs. I, like probably everyone else, was expecting to see cool and exciting new abilities and it was very dissappointing, but they really aren't too terrible in all honesty and I haven't lost any of my prowess as a high class DPSer because of them so I really dont mind them that much.

Jayad

03-06-2007, 04:29 PM

Whatever the "state" of the assassin class, the fact remains the EOF AAs are utter crap. If they don't want to improve our DPS, give us *something*. I don't understand why if rogues and summoners can have our DPS, why we can't have some utility. If nobody else will complain, I will. Necros are topping parses purely because of Lifeburn, every 5 minutes. How is that fair at all? Decapitate is a total joke now. Swashies and brigands can parse very very well now and have a huge amount of utility to boot. how is that fair? If we're going to be rogues, then let's get some utility. There's not a lot of difference in DPS anymore. It's especially bad in EOF where every other fight is a joust it seems. There's pure dps classes which offer nothing else, and it seems like there's not much advantage to those anymore. Not just assassins but the other ones too. The spectacle of our AAs being trash just makes it all worse. EOF gives us nothing. That's not a good thing.

Siclone

03-06-2007, 04:40 PM

Yea we are not that bad off, as everyone keeps saying but the op does make good points.I ask the guy in the top raiding guild on my server, who parse #1? He said both the swashies and the one assassin go back and forth.That’s a pretty big error, no? We are content with doing equal damage to necro, swashies, conjour. Everyone posting seems to be Those classes have twice the utility, and don’t have the restrictions we have to pump out the DPS. What class solos better then nerco and conjour and at the same time does #1 raid dpsThings are off, we should not lose site of that, lets call things as they are, no we don’t sux, but yes, balance is a bit off in the wrong direction for us. I think we should at least acknowledge that. Give us a boost in some utility if not a boost in dps.

HellRaiserXX

03-06-2007, 08:10 PM

Things are off, but not on our side. Assassins are doing DPS at the level we should be, which is also at the level that the other Tier 1 classes are doing. Taking Assassin DPS up will only take things more out of balance. So unless you want to start campaigning to nerf swashys and summoners then its probably better to just let it be the way it is now. If tier 2 classes are overpowered, which is probable, than the problem lies there and here, and increasing our DPS would not change the fact that they are still overpowered, it would just make us overpowered along with them. So I agree that something needs to be done, but I do not think the problem lies at our end.

stonebo

03-07-2007, 02:37 PM

God forbid I try to search for something on these crap forums but another bug I found on the predator int lineWhen I finally can cast Poison Combonation when a mob is poisoned as soon as the "poison" state wears off the debuff goes awaySorry posted somewhere else but you know =POnly gripe I have to agree with is most other people get some sort of double attack aa line. Rangers get a 10% chance to double attack rangedwhy dont we get the same for melee?

Siclone

03-07-2007, 03:56 PM

Cruoris@Vox wrote: <blockquote>God forbid I try to search for something on these crap forums but another bug I found on the predator int lineWhen I finally can cast Poison Combonation when a mob is poisoned as soon as the "poison" state wears off the debuff goes awaySorry posted somewhere else but you know =POnly gripe I have to agree with is most other people get some sort of double attack aa line. Rangers get a 10% chance to double attack rangedwhy dont we get the same for melee?</blockquote>well maybe cause Rangers even with the 10 pecent chance to double attack dont out damage assassins, there are abilities we get they dont, right? I am sure no one wants all the classes the same, the bottom line is Rangers are not over powered. So there is not a problem.

morningmists

03-07-2007, 05:47 PM

top parse or near top, plus excessive bleeding which so many think sucks debuffs a minimum of 10% off mob hp let's see on a MiS mob that's only 400k+shoot for some bug fixes, like apply poison stealh break or whatever...anything else well the dev is right, shut up or nerf

Jvaloth

03-07-2007, 06:56 PM

<cite>HellRaiserXX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Things are off, but not on our side. Assassins are doing DPS at the level we should be, which is also at the level that the other Tier 1 classes are doing. Taking Assassin DPS up will only take things more out of balance. So unless you want to start campaigning to nerf swashys and summoners then its probably better to just let it be the way it is now. If tier 2 classes are overpowered, which is probable, than the problem lies there and here, and increasing our DPS would not change the fact that they are still overpowered, it would just make us overpowered along with them. So I agree that something needs to be done, but I do not think the problem lies at our end. </blockquote>Well I for one have no problem calling for a nerf of supposedly Tier 2 classes if they do not plan on bumping up Predator/Sorc DPS. Never in the past have I been an advocate for such things but enough is enough. Necros are casting Lifeburn every other fight and doing 60-80k. Swashies with Agi/Wis build can win the parse 90% of the time single or group mobs. If assassins are indeed where we are supposed to be, then summoners and rogues need to get beat down with the nerf bat because quite frankly its unbalanced as it stands. Rogue = better debuffs, better solo, better utility, better dps? Summoner = better solo, better utility, better dps? Pred/Sorcs do one thing and one thing only, DPS. We shouldnt have to be looking over our backs or worse yet, looking up at the parse winner podium and see the Gold, Silver and Bronze medals around the necks of swashbucklers and necromancers. Its utter BS.I'd like to see them add a feature to Finishing Blow that relates to epic mobs simular to Inquisitor's "Verdict". When the mob is at 1-2% the mob is instantly killed. I'd like to see the damage range increased on Assassinate aswell, tired of waiting forever to cast that only to hit for 15k. Even 27k is a disappointment now, when ya have wizards/necros nailing mobs for 100k.

khufure

03-07-2007, 10:12 PM

As a 70 raiding assassin, I'd like the following things: - AE taunt. What if I want to tank? - 1000 more mitigation and str self buffed. - 1000dps fireball out of my butt. Ok, but seriously, I think we only need 1 change in an AA to make everyone happy. How about one of these options: - Make Hemotoxin have more ticks before overwrite with full AA, even if its proc'd over with a new tick count. - Change AFKaway to constant 10% haste buff or constant 5% AE auto attack (or double attack?). - Make repeated stabbing useful somehow. I think for most situations assassins are fine and still top dps. However, we can't scale up as much as necros, swashy, and heck even ranger now. (BTW rangers are finally just right when equipped & grouped right, good job SOE). Maybe we just need to stick with it and grin & bear it. I mean, warlocks have been broken for how long? Wizards have been sub-scout dps for how long? Rangers in T7 have had it a lot worse than us.

HellRaiserXX

03-08-2007, 01:58 AM

With the changes the made to hemotoxin and coupled with the hemo AA, it outperforms caustic now in most situations, especially in EoF. So I dont really think that it needs anything done to it. Getaway is pretty nice really. On any fights where youd actually use it the timers on the AEs should be already known so there is very little down time. Hit it, couple seconds later AE drops and continue on. I would like Excessive Bleeding to actually work in a way that can get the full 5% and be actually noticeable. Id actually spec to excessive bleeding if I knew it worked right and I could get all 5% for a decent duration.

Gorth

03-08-2007, 04:23 AM

Want to make repeated stabbing useful? Make it actually do what the name implies - double attack - either..say, a straight double attack percentage (10%?) or maybe a chance (say..5%) for a CA to hit twice - not enough to be significantly overpowering, but a chance of occaisionally boosting spike damage... a 1 in 20 chance of decapitate doubling would be far from overpowering, heck, brigands get a CA that effectively does the same thing to an attack/debuff of their choice. =)

Kaiser Sigma

03-08-2007, 09:53 AM

If you want double attack then ask for an illusionist to cast Illusory Arm on you. If every single class is going to get double attack then why do we have classes to begin with? Seriously, we are fine; just takes a lot more of skill now to parse on the top.The only thing I'm not happy about is that wizards / necromancers don't have to work for their dps. Manaburn / Lifeburn is imo an easy mode T1 dps button. No merit on that whatsoever.

LoreLady

03-08-2007, 12:10 PM

Asking for double attack now will only lead to assassins being overpowered.. If your looking in zones like labs/lyceum/DT - swashy's are going to look overpowered, if you look at the zones like fth/mmis/hos assassins should be at/near the top every time.. Lets take last night for example, our swash held a 1.9k zonewide - our warlock held a 2.6k zonewide for labs+lyceum. The other night in FTH (not all the way through mind you - guild still has problems there) - our assassin held a 2.1k zonewide - I held a 2.2k zonewide, the swash held a 1.5k zonewide. Seriously - if your complaining that much about AE encounters - change your pred tree up and let me know how you do going wis/int. Try thinking outside the box for yourself before calling out nerfs to other classes.

Siclone

03-08-2007, 12:47 PM

<cite>LoreLady wrote:</cite><blockquote>Asking for double attack now will only lead to assassins being overpowered.. If your looking in zones like labs/lyceum/DT - swashy's are going to look overpowered, if you look at the zones like fth/mmis/hos assassins should be at/near the top every time.. Lets take last night for example, our swash held a 1.9k zonewide - our warlock held a 2.6k zonewide for labs+lyceum. The other night in FTH (not all the way through mind you - guild still has problems there) - our assassin held a 2.1k zonewide - I held a 2.2k zonewide, the swash held a 1.5k zonewide. Seriously - if your complaining that much about AE encounters - change your pred tree up and let me know how you do going wis/int. Try thinking outside the box for yourself before calling out nerfs to other classes. </blockquote> bottom line swashies and necros are out DPSing Assassins in too many zones to even try to think whats going on is a fair deal. The question or problem is not that Assassins are not near the top or should be. the issue is that other classes with twice the utility and other roles, are equaling or bettering our DPS way to often.The sky is not fallen, we are not bad off, but lets not candy coat it either. going wis/int would just make things worst with a significant drop in DPS that would be just stupid.

khufure

03-08-2007, 05:08 PM

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>LoreLady wrote: bottom line swashies and necros are out DPSing Assassins in too many zones to even try to think whats going on is a fair deal. The question or problem is not that Assassins are not near the top or should be. the issue is that other classes with twice the utility and other roles, are equaling or bettering our DPS way to often. </blockquote>Calling for nerfs of other classes, which is what you are doing, is not cool.

HellRaiserXX

03-08-2007, 05:38 PM

thats why there probably isnt much that can be done about it right now. The situation isnt so bad that it makes the game unplayable. Hopefully if nothing gets done now when t8 comes out things will get adjusted appropriately.

Executi

03-08-2007, 05:42 PM

Here's my opinion. The tier system is broken and has been broken for way too long. There are similarities in each tier that make classes what they are. For mages we got three tiers: Sorcerers, Summoners, and Enchanters For scouts we got three tiers: Predators, Rogues, and Bards Now, lets look at each tier and make some comparisons to find the problems. Enchanters and Bards are similar; they provide good buffs and utility while putting out a good amount of dps, but dps lower than the other two tiers most of the time and rightly so. Why rightly so? Because it's game mechanics. Summoners and Rogues - A bit different but in their own right. Summoners get stuns, stifles, dazes, resistance debuffs, heal pets, debuff pets, as well as good dps, but mid-range dps, even though some things can be argued to be a little over the top for a mid-range class, but listen, the reason that they should be doing mid-range dps is because of their utility. Now to rogues. Brigands and Swashbucklers have awesome debuffs, really awesome debuffs, to the equivalent of shamans. Brigands w ith dispatch and Swash's have transfer and hurrica ne, giving tanks the intended transfer. Predators and Sorcerers - DPS! These classes were given very few utility functions because they are supposed to deal the most damage. The best debuff i have as an assassin is a poison debuff and a defense debuff. Now that we have covered the tiers. Lets think about the parses of any zone; who should be topping the parses? Specifically, to touch on the subjects already being brought up, I'd like to say that Apply Poison should be fixed; the fact that SOE doesn't has to imply that something in the game mechanics is really tough to overcome for this fix to come about. I'm not sure what the heck it is, but all we can hope for is for developers to find the solution and fix it. Rangers, in this expansion, really got the upgrades in their AA's, while assassins got poop. It's gotta be balancing issues, and I think SOE is off in this aspect. SOE needs to stop looking at the average and take into account exceptional players of their class. With great upgrades, people will take advantage of everything they can to get the utmost amount of DPS out of their class(ex. 10-12k autobow crits, with a delay of 5.4 seconds self-buffed--this is with a Star-Darkened Longbow). It's a disappointment to many assassins, while others with average rangers and swashs in their guild think that assassins have no problems at all in their classes. For example, many have been saying, "I parse just as well as my swash's and ranger's in most zones. I don't see what the problem is." If you had rangers or swashs in your guilds parsing 2.8-3.2k in zonewides, you might question yourself a bit. It's not that assassins want to have those cl asses nerf'd; we just want to see some sort of sys tematic approach to SOE's intentions. I mean. Does SOE intend for Assassins to be a second rate DPS class, or a utility class, or a solo class or what ? I'd like feedback from the devs. I'm puzzled myself. If we are supposed to be top notch dps, give us some upgrades. If we're not, then we'll continue parsing 2.6-2.8k in zones and watch the Swashs and Rangers beat us. Lol...

TheLopper

03-08-2007, 05:53 PM

Hold out assassins, something is bound to be done eventually, until then stick it to the man and show the raid who's king of dps!

Siclone

03-08-2007, 05:55 PM

<cite>khufure wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>LoreLady wrote: bottom line swashies and necros are out DPSing Assassins in too many zones to even try to think whats going on is a fair deal. The question or problem is not that Assassins are not near the top or should be. the issue is that other classes with twice the utility and other roles, are equaling or bettering our DPS way to often. </blockquote>Calling for nerfs of other classes, which is what you are doing, is not cool. </blockquote> huh? what are you talking about, you read that quote and saw a call for a nerf of a particular class?

LoreLady

03-08-2007, 08:36 PM

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>khufure wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>LoreLady wrote: bottom line swashies and necros are out DPSing Assassins in too many zones to even try to think whats going on is a fair deal. The question or problem is not that Assassins are not near the top or should be. the issue is that other classes with twice the utility and other roles, are equaling or bettering our DPS way to often. </blockquote>Calling for nerfs of other classes, which is what you are doing, is not cool. </blockquote> huh? what are you talking about, you read that quote and saw a call for a nerf of a particular class? </blockquote>I never typed this - dont quote me on it.. If you wish to quote me, quote on what I write.. Read my original responce please.

HellRaiserXX

03-08-2007, 09:54 PM

he wasnt quoting you Lore, when khufure quoted Siclone further up it somehow put your name as the author, probably a bad cut and paste.

khufure

03-08-2007, 09:55 PM

<cite>LoreLady wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never typed this - dont quote me on it.. If you wish to quote me, quote on what I write.. Read my original responce please. </blockquote> Sorry about this LoreLady. I see it is Siclone that said this. Getting rid of 80 quote boxes can be troublesome. Sure wasn't intentional.

LoreLady

03-08-2007, 10:00 PM

<cite>HellRaiserXX wrote:</cite><blockquote>he wasnt quoting you Lore, when khufure quoted Siclone further up it somehow put your name as the author, probably a bad cut and paste.</blockquote>Was just a random one I picked - I was being quoted for something I dident write 3x, and dident want anyone to start a flame fest against me on something I dident write - I would rather it be on something I wrote.

Logan

03-09-2007, 08:31 PM

People LIke the OP will never be happy no matter how good assassins are. There will always be something to rant and whine about. Just disregard and read the contructive posts.Rhys

judged_one

03-10-2007, 02:13 AM

<cite>Logannx wrote:</cite><blockquote>People LIke the OP will never be happy no matter how good assassins are. There will always be something to rant and whine about. Just disregard and read the contructive posts.Rhys</blockquote> People like the OP are one of the original assassin from way back t5 know exactly what he is talking about. 1.) Swashy is overpowered, no doubt. And here is why:I don't think SOE intended for Hurricane + Reach + double attack to stack. Every night I look at the parser they are doing 45% auto melee damage, while other scout are doing 30-35%Reach basically makes hurricane the most over powered buff in this game. Stand 5 meters away hit auto melee and hit all the mobs in the encounter and watch the double attack and poison proc goes off2.)Why would swashy get a aoe immunity (GROUP) 12 sec, With aoe hate transfer and extra aoe immunity = no more assassin in mt group3.)Now consider Hurricane + Reach + double attack + Inspiration + poison proc + blade4.)Don't forget the debuff that swashy getsAssassin with same buff can match a swashy on single target, or even parse higher with decap up. Assassin will lose to swashy on aoe mob.Now ask yourself, do we really want to be happy that we can barely bet a swashy on solo mob, and lost horribly on aoe mob. Named FightAny wizard, necro can out parse us. gone are the days when assassin were the king of spike damage. Gone are the days when we marvel at the 30k decapitate high hitAre you all really happy about the current state of assassin?

Jayad

03-10-2007, 06:17 AM

It's also very, very different when they have a top quality weapon like Chel's with good buffs. The double attack and hurricane and reach all stack on top of each other, now add in dps buffs, melee procs from dirge, etc. and you get an idea of what is going on.

Jvaloth

03-10-2007, 06:46 PM

Yup, its complete BS. If you look at it on paper... it makes ZERO sense, all of the crap swashies get.Simply on paper anyone in their right mind would clearly see how out of whack and imbalanced the Swashy would be. Yet they went ahead and put it in game...Pretty clear a dev plays a swashy or his wife does. Either way, I'm not ashamed to call for a Swashy nerf if they plan on keeping assassins the way they are. Any swashy coming here and trying to say that swashies arent over powered needs a heavy dose of reality.Any assassin who thinks we are right where we are supposed to be and the world is rosey.... pull your head out!

Stormwitt

03-11-2007, 01:39 PM

Yep to me it feels a bit like deja vu from the post LU13 days when some classes were a bit overpowered for a while, until the devs balanced things. The assassins have remained fairly balanced throughout but maybe it is time for the devs to fine tune us again. I think the revamp of the KoS abilities was a good thing for us - it is nice to have both Perfectionist and Intoxication. However I don't think it quite makes up for our rather weak EoF AA tree.

HellRaiserXX

03-11-2007, 02:17 PM

Assassins are where we are supposed to be. Look at rangers, look at wizards and warlocks. They are right there pretty much even with us. If swashies are overpowered than they need to be dealt with, but that really has absolutely no effect on our current state. Our current state is fine, theres a few small things that need to be addressed, but nothing major. We are not underpowered because swashies can parse higher than us in some cases. I find it really hard to believe that the majority of assasssins are being outparsed by swashies. Most likely its in guilds that dont raid EoF much and only KoS. I get schooled by a lot of people in KoS zones cause its full of group encounters and pretty much every encounter dies so fast that all everyone does is drop their biggest nukes right off the bat. Stuff dies so fast in KoS that I can hardly get off a Concealment chain. I am not going to call for a nerf of another class even if it may be warranted. You didnt see many people calling for a nerf of assassins in KoS. Most people understood why that was. It wasnt cause assassins were overpowered and people knew that. If the rest of you want to call for a nerf go ahead, but dont go saying assassins need a boost cause all that would do would be to bring back KoS except this time we actually would be overpowered. Or you can just deal with it, the situation is really that bad, a little unbalanced to be sure, but not that bad. The sky isnt falling guys.Now about Apply Poison. Are we absolutely sure it breaks stealth? Now I know my stealth gets broken randomly sometimes, but most of the time its either because Mark triggers while im in stealth, I get AEed, or if I use masked attack and I get parried or blocked and actually dont go into stealth at all. Sometimes I cant conciously see why it broke and that may be caused by apply poison, but I really dont have it happen that often where I dont know what broke the stealth. Im gonna have my guildie test it out today in EH, I would do it, but some BS happened and I got locked out lol. Another thing they should really fix is Mark breaking stealth, I know that one does for sure.The current state of Assassins is pretty good IMO. There is some fine tuning to be done for sure, but nothing terribly major. Our EoF AAs are definately a fairly weak, but the adjustment to Hemotoxin made them a decent bit better. Locked down 5 more points I wasnt sure quite where to put. Im pretty happy with the way Im specced right now, no wasted points to speak of and everything I took I can use.

Jvaloth

03-11-2007, 06:32 PM

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"I am not going to call for a nerf of another class even if it may be warranted. You didnt see many people calling for a nerf of assassins in KoS. Most people understood why that was. It wasnt cause assassins were overpowered and people knew that. If the rest of you want to call for a nerf go ahead, but dont go saying assassins need a boost cause all that would do would be to bring back KoS except this time we actually would be overpowered. Or you can just deal with it, the situation is really that bad, a little unbalanced to be sure, but not that bad. The sky isnt falling guys."-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------People werent calling for a nerf of assassins because for 60 levels assassins were Tier 2 DPS with no utility and no soloability. Assassin's were half [I cannot control my vocabulary] rangers back then. Necros/Conjurors were still kings of DPS. KoS made it so assassins were where they should have been all along, top dogs of DPS along with Rangers, Sorc and Wizards. I think they've made some strides with wiz/warlock and definately fixed rangers... Now you have Swashies/Necros parsing equal to or higher than assassins on a consistant basis with more utility, more soloability. The sky is falling when an Agi/Wis spec'd swashy can do equal DPS to an assassin AND has 10-12 debuffs he lays on a mob, and can solo and tank and AE immunity his group, AND AND AND AND. Enough is enough.Nerf the Rogue/Summoner DPS or boost the Predator/Sorcerors Utility and DPS. Its that simple.

judged_one

03-12-2007, 12:18 AM

<cite>HellRaiserXX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Assassins are where we are supposed to be. Look at rangers, look at wizards and warlocks. They are right there pretty much even with us. If swashies are overpowered than they need to be dealt with, but that really has absolutely no effect on our current state. </blockquote>Where is the other assassin from your guild Raine, I would like to hear from him. From what I heard he is the real deal assassin there. Stop keep coming here and saying we are ok, and this or that and how you can't believe Sawshy is parsing higher than assassin and that.Swashy is doing 2k easy every fight with Dirge and Coercer, 2.5k easy on group in EOF. And these are just average.With inspiration up they are doing 3kNecro and Wizard are doing 3k easy on single target.Now how many times do yo hit 3k with out decap. So [I cannot control my vocabulary] already about how we are fine.EDIT: Maybe your swashy needs a Cheldrek Shard...

Kaiser Sigma

03-12-2007, 08:34 AM

"Stop keep coming here and saying we are ok, and this or that and how you can't believe Sawshy is parsing higher than assassin and that."Reminds me of the popular quote: "Are you with us or against us?". =DAny assassin can parse 2k easy with a dirge + coercer. In fact..I don't need a coercer. I can parse 2k easy with just a dirge. Necromancers and Wizards parse 3k on single target thanks to Lifeburn / Manaburn...yet you ask him / her to parse 3k without Decapitate? Do I sense conflict here?By the way, out of curiosity, how much do you parse on EoF / HoS AoE fights~?

HellRaiserXX

03-12-2007, 12:07 PM

I have nothing to prove to you. The only difference between me and him as far as the parse goes is our gear when we have equal buffs, hes got GDoH I dont. He wouldnt get his hands dirty arguing with noobs and crybabies, but if he were to post he would agree with me, send him a tell if you dont believe me. We are pretty much identical in our views of assassins and playstyles. Our AAs are even specced the same and I assure we both arrived there on our own.

judged_one

03-12-2007, 12:32 PM

Karel@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>"Stop keep coming here and saying we are ok, and this or that and how you can't believe Sawshy is parsing higher than assassin and that."Reminds me of the popular quote: "Are you with us or against us?". =DAny assassin can parse 2k easy with a dirge + coercer. In fact..I don't need a coercer. I can parse 2k easy with just a dirge. Necromancers and Wizards parse 3k on single target thanks to Lifeburn / Manaburn...yet you ask him / her to parse 3k without Decapitate? Do I sense conflict here?By the way, out of curiosity, how much do you parse on EoF / HoS AoE fights~?</blockquote>Thanks Capt Obvious. In case you didnt read the 40 posts above. I will put it in point form. 1.) Swashy is doing SIMILAR DPS on single target as Assassin2.) Swashy is doing more DPS on multi tagers as Assassin I am happy that you can do 2k DPS with just a Dirge, but the point is not how uber awesome DPS machine stud you are. If Swashy is doing 2k and you are doing 2k... hmm maybe something is not right.In terms of Buff, I can tell you that under same buffage, swashy is still comparable to Assassin, I tested that out. (With the exception of Decapitate being up and it is a 2min or less fight) In terms of 3k comment. In case you can't comprehend what I am trying to say, I will rephrase it:If Necro and Wizard can hit high DPS on single encounter with manaburn and Life burn with is on a shorter timer than Decapitate. That puts assassin at a clear disadvantage. This thread is not about assassin stroking their own [Removed for Content] about their DPS. It is about see the inequity in class and balance. If you want to show how uber you are, start another thread and post how you cancrazy dps.

judged_one

03-12-2007, 12:40 PM

<cite>HellRaiserXX wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have nothing to prove to you. The only difference between me and him as far as the parse goes is our gear when we have equal buffs, hes got GDoH I dont. He wouldnt get his hands dirty arguing with noobs and crybabies, but if he were to post he would agree with me, send him a tell if you dont believe me. We are pretty much identical in our views of assassins and playstyles. Our AAs are even specced the same and I assure we both arrived there on our own. </blockquote>If another assassin is doing more DPS than you, and you are still parsing higher than your swashy...Maybe you need to ask some other swashy from another guild what DPS they are doing. Like I said in previous post, Swashy is blowing us out of the water on 2+ mobs, and still parse comparable to us in single taget. There are 2 ways to fix this Raine.1.) Nerf Swashy and Necro2.) Buff all t1 DPS It is really not just about assassin, it makes me sick to see t2 > t1 period.

Dasto

03-12-2007, 01:50 PM

yes, this thread is about, T2, swashies-Necro that have all the benefits of utilities and soloing doing the same if not greater DPS, depending on the encounter, and I will toss in with more ease. (ie its allot easier casting life burn from 10 meters then to get in stealth and get behind a mob that is running about)it is not about how we all like our classits not about if we are happy playing our classits not about how uber we areits about fairness, we all spend tons of time working our toons everyone wants a fair shake. Hearth knows what he is talking about he is in one of the top guilds, There needs to be some type of adjustment. Thats it. No one is crying, or saying we suck, just a very factual there is an issue here and it needs to be reconized first, then delt with.

HellRaiserXX

03-12-2007, 02:37 PM

See this is the thing that gets me. T2 has always been doing T1 DPS really. In KoS you had assassins on top and then everyone else all doing roughly the same DPS and the T2 classes were very much in contention. When we had a really good swashy back before Fallen Dynasty it would be the assassin at #1 and then 2nd and 3rd were generally fought over by the swashy, rangers and occasional wizard, if we had had a necro at the time Im sure theyd of been up there too. Sure you can say that the other T1 classes were very underpowered, which I agree for the most part they were, but T2 classes were still doing comparable DPS or better in a lot of cases. So I guess I dont really see that anything has changed except that now Assassins are no longer sole holder of the #1 slot and that to me is the biggest reason for all this uproar. Assassins are [Removed for Content] because they have to actually work to be #1 now and are often not. You dont see the other T1 classes rising up in arms over the fact that necros and swashies are challenging them for DPS in fact most of them are telling us, or more accurate you, to shut up about it. If it was such a big deal you would see rangers, wizards, and sorcs saying the same things and I certainly am not seeing any of that. Either they are resigned to the fact that the tiers will never be balanced or its just not that big a deal. Id like to think its the latter more than the former. So all I see is some holey crusade by a few assassins whos pride is hurt cause they aren't #1 DPS anymore. Dont get me wrong I want the tiers to be balanced as much as anyone, but nerfing someone is never the way to go unless its because of a faulty game mechanic as with rangers or like with Brigands when guilds are using many more than should realistically be used to defeat an encounter because of an overpowering ability. AR itself wasnt overpowered IMO, but using 3-5 brigands in a raid because of it made it such. Neither of those seem to be the case here and doing a class buff like what you are suggesting is something that is expansion level improvement and there isnt an expansion coming for awhile yet. Its just not very realistic even if it may be warranted.

Kaiser Sigma

03-12-2007, 02:44 PM

<cite>judged_one wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks Capt Obvious. In case you didnt read the 40 posts above. I will put it in point form. 1.) Swashy is doing SIMILAR DPS on single target as Assassin2.) Swashy is doing more DPS on multi tagers as Assassin I am happy that you can do 2k DPS with just a Dirge, but the point is not how uber awesome DPS machine stud you are. If Swashy is doing 2k and you are doing 2k... hmm maybe something is not right.In terms of Buff, I can tell you that under same buffage, swashy is still comparable to Assassin, I tested that out. (With the exception of Decapitate being up and it is a 2min or less fight) In terms of 3k comment. In case you can't comprehend what I am trying to say, I will rephrase it:If Necro and Wizard can hit high DPS on single encounter with manaburn and Life burn with is on a shorter timer than Decapitate. That puts assassin at a clear disadvantage. This thread is not about assassin stroking their own [Removed for Content] about their DPS. It is about see the inequity in class and balance. If you want to show how uber you are, start another thread and post how you cancrazy dps.</blockquote>Actually it's Captain Karel Todesengel...although since GU 32 I've changed it to Blademaster Karel Todesengel. But hey, you were close.By the way, in case you didn't know point form means... point 1. then point 2. 1. Tier 2 dps doesn't mean they should be behind us by 500 dps. If the difference is 200 dps - 300 dps then you know the system is working. If it isn't...have you considered maybe just maybe you are missing something~?2. On AoEs is debatable. With the proper buffage and maximizing your DoTs, Hemotoxin usage and Exacting + everything else you could match them.Now..for the circus part. You aren't concerned about how much dps I can do yet you are concerned with how much dps a person does vs the other assassin of his / her guild? Again...do I sense some conflict here?If a swashbuckled is doing 2k and you are doing 2k you are right, something is not right. But before going on a witch hunt make sure the problem isn't home. As for the 3k comment..wizards are T1 dps. They are supposed to be head to head with us. Necromancers? Well..one fight every now and then where they can outdps me doesn't make me cry. Stop thinking we should own the universe, we shouldn't. We share a spot with other classes: Rangers, Wizards and Warlocks and sans for the later nobody moans as much as assassins lately.If this thread isn't about stroking [Removed for Content] then I suggest you set the example and don't bring up again people are below / above others on their same guild. But hey..I'm having fun either way~.

Jvaloth

03-12-2007, 03:09 PM

Karel@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>judged_one wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks Capt Obvious. In case you didnt read the 40 posts above. I will put it in point form. 1.) Swashy is doing SIMILAR DPS on single target as Assassin2.) Swashy is doing more DPS on multi tagers as Assassin I am happy that you can do 2k DPS with just a Dirge, but the point is not how uber awesome DPS machine stud you are. If Swashy is doing 2k and you are doing 2k... hmm maybe something is not right.In terms of Buff, I can tell you that under same buffage, swashy is still comparable to Assassin, I tested that out. (With the exception of Decapitate being up and it is a 2min or less fight) In terms of 3k comment. In case you can't comprehend what I am trying to say, I will rephrase it:If Necro and Wizard can hit high DPS on single encounter with manaburn and Life burn with is on a shorter timer than Decapitate. That puts assassin at a clear disadvantage. This thread is not about assassin stroking their own [Removed for Content] about their DPS. It is about see the inequity in class and balance. If you want to show how uber you are, start another thread and post how you cancrazy dps.</blockquote>Actually it's Captain Karel Todesengel...although since GU 32 I've changed it to Blademaster Karel Todesengel. But hey, you were close.By the way, in case you didn't know point form means... point 1. then point 2. 1. Tier 2 dps doesn't mean they should be behind us by 500 dps. If the difference is 200 dps - 300 dps then you know the system is working. If it isn't...have you considered maybe just maybe you are missing something~?2. On AoEs is debatable. With the proper buffage and maximizing your DoTs, Hemotoxin usage and Exacting + everything else you could match them.Now..for the circus part. You aren't concerned about how much dps I can do yet you are concerned with how much dps a person does vs the other assassin of his / her guild? Again...do I sense some conflict here?If a swashbuckled is doing 2k and you are doing 2k you are right, something is not right. But before going on a witch hunt make sure the problem isn't home. As for the 3k comment..wizards are T1 dps. They are supposed to be head to head with us. Necromancers? Well..one fight every now and then where they can outdps me doesn't make me cry. Stop thinking we should own the universe, we shouldn't. We share a spot with other classes: Rangers, Wizards and Warlocks and sans for the later nobody moans as much as assassins lately.If this thread isn't about stroking [Removed for Content] then I suggest you set the example and don't bring up again people are below / above others on their same guild. But hey..I'm having fun either way~.</blockquote>Point 1 - I think YOU are missing something. Chances are, a swashbuckler in an equal group setup will do equal to or MORE than an assassin on single target AND AE mobs unless exacting , decap, and ALL you big hits are up and chained back to back. Even if they are 100-300 behind us occasionally, you think its cool that they have TONS of debuffs and extreme versatility and they are even close to us in DPS? I don't mind fighting for top spot on the parse with a wiz/warlock/ranger but when you have to fight neck and neck with swashies on every fight... it makes no sense. They have no business anywhere near the top spot.. maybe once in a while but EVERY single encounter???Point 2 - AOE's is debateable?!?! You get a swashy with reach, 95% double attack, AE offensive stance, inspiration, and poisons procing on multiple mobs.... and its debateble?!?! lol What are you smoking? Ofcourse swashy is gunna have the advantage. There is no debate here. There is no [I cannot control my vocabulary] witch hunt nor is there anything wrong at HOME. Whats wrong is that supposed "Tier 2 DPS" who were doing Tier 1 DPS in KoS are now doing even more damage than they were before in EoF. You need only put Tier 1 classes and their abilities on paper, side by side with Tier 2 classes. Then calculate the DPS output of the classes and you have to scratch your head at the inequity and sheer imbalance of the current system. If you weigh all the factors... mainly DPS and Utility.... it just doesnt make sense. It blows my frick'n mind that you and Lorelady think everything is peachy.

Kaiser Sigma

03-12-2007, 03:15 PM

If you get this riled up on a forum I have to say..not only you are easy to be trolled, you are high on something because all I get out of forum posts is a smirk. You seem to be needing some mood stabilizers... badly. Naturally, arguing with somebody who decided beforehand he is right is futile, I made my point you are free to keep moaning about how much you suck. But hey, it's fun for all to read~.

Kaiser Sigma

03-12-2007, 03:32 PM

Awww...you edited the ecstasy comment. =/

judged_one

03-12-2007, 03:57 PM

Karel For starter this thread is not about me and my DPS. I have been playing my assassin since the first week of launch. I am comfortable that I am doing sufficient DPS as an assassin. Never once, I would think I am the top parse assassin since I know there is always someone better out there. I have been playing with the same player since late T5, so I know exactly where they stand before each expansion. Unless my swashy friend suddenly gain some divine insight unto his class, I don't see how else you can explain why they are suddenly parsing above assassin consistenly in group, and possibly 50/50 on single. In terms of aoe fight, you are sadly mistaken, there poison will proc at 9% total damage vs our 7% total damage. I keep a tight record of ACT parse. And with Reach + Hurricane + Inspiration, they can spike 3k + easy without breaking more than 2-3 CA. And to your point about bringing other below and above in, I am trying to illustrate a point there: A top assassin saying that a swashy is parsing lower VS a second parsed assassin saying that a swashy is parsing lowerTo me this shows that the swashy isn't up to the standard, and so Raine is slightly misdirected by this fact.Also I do see how saying assassin X is better than assassin Y is stroking my own ego, no where in any of my post I ever claimI am better than Raine or his other guildie assassin. My point about Manaburn and Lifeburn is a further insult to assassin. Manaburn recast is < than Decapitate, and Damage is approximately 2.5 times greaterLifeBurn recast is < than Decapitate, and from a supposed t2 Class But if you do see a problem than you should only see 3 possible solutions1) Buffing Assassin Utility to be greater than Swashy in single mob, and slightly beind in multi-mob2) Buffing Assassin DPS to be greater Vastly on a single mob, and greater slightly on a single mob3) Nerfing Swashy DPS to be lesser vastly on a single mob, and lesser vastly on a multi mob Also the reason I don't speak for other T-1 class is I simply odnt play these class, and I don't think want say things that I don't really know. But I do believe that Wizard/ Assassin #1 Single mobs | Ranger/Warlock #1 Multi mobs

HellRaiserXX

03-12-2007, 06:29 PM

Lol you make me sound like a second rate player just cause I parse under the other assassin. Our swashy doesnt parse well and we are all well aware of that, so I cannot say from personal experience that swashys can or cannot parse equal with assassins. I have no doubt if the other guys were still with us he probably would be parsing at or better than us and I can honestly say it wouldnt really bother me that much. Yes I agree that Assassin/Wizard should be #1 on single and encounters and that Warlock/Ranger should be #1 on group encounters, but so what if they arent? So the lines are blurred a little. Why should it have any impact on your enjoyment of the game? Oh right things need to be fair and balanced, newsflash the world isnt fair and balanced. I could honestly care less whats going on with the other classes as long as I am happy with the class I play and feel it is at an appropriate strength. As long as it doesnt get out of hand and you have 1 class that is so unbelieveably overpowered and that is hardly the situation here. Assassins are at their appropriate strength and I don't really see the big deal with swashies and necros. Only reason I can see is that maybe people think they are going to get replaced, which is very likely if you need more utility in raid, but no one is going to replace an assassin because they need more DPS unless that assassin really blows. As long as I can raid and get loot and experience the content I dont really care if a T2 class is comparable to me. Thats just my oppinion, if it were fixed I wouldn't complain, but I am not going to complain if it isnt.I dont consider Manaburn and Lifeburn an insult to me or assassins. They may be able to beat me on one fight every 5min, but I will beat them in the long run. If MB and LB caused them to be averaging 3k for a zone than we have a problem, but thankfully they dont do that. So I lose 1 or 2 fights every 5min, I will be winning all the fights in between and when mobs die in less than a minute thats a lot of fights I am winning. BTW, you most definately implied that you were better than me. You stated that from what you have heard he is the real deal assassin in my guild, which on the flip side implies that I am not. You said you wanted to hear from him, which implies that since I am not a real deal assassin than I must have no idea what I am talking about. And since you consider yourself to be a real deal assassin, which is not in dispute BTW and I think readily attestable by your peers, you then imply, albeit no doubt unconciously, that you are in fact greater than I since an assassin who is not the real deal cannot possibly be right. Savvy? Don't worry I forgive you, I know you could not have possibly meant such a thing.

Jayad

03-12-2007, 06:41 PM

Well, I'm glad it doesn't bother you, but on our raids they have to make a decision between a swashy and an assassin all the time. (and other dps classes if a lot of people happen to show up that raid) Class balance absolutely is a factor to many of us. Also don't forget we're talking a *lot* of utility that rogues get, compared to the barren waste that is predator/sorceror. Almost everything they do has buffs/debuffs attached to it, not counting things like group AE avoid. (Which is huge by itself) If it were close, I wouldn't care. It's not close.

Jvaloth

03-12-2007, 07:32 PM

The reason your swashy isn't parsing good is because he/she is spec'd STR/WIS. Regardless of the debates swirling in Swashy forums about the correct build, I have seen AGI/WIS in action.Have your swashy go and test it out. 4-6-4-8-1 in AGI4-6-5-8-1 in WISI guarantee you will notice an marked improvement in the swashies DPS.

SmCaudata

03-12-2007, 08:51 PM

<cite>Jvaloth wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reason your swashy isn't parsing good is because he/she is spec'd STR/WIS. Regardless of the debates swirling in Swashy forums about the correct build, I have seen AGI/WIS in action.Have your swashy go and test it out. 4-6-4-8-1 in AGI4-6-5-8-1 in WISI guarantee you will notice an marked improvement in the swashies DPS. </blockquote>That may be but at the cost of giving up Traumatic Swipe thus sacrificing utility for DPS. Also, AGI is great for raids but is much less useful in any situation where the swash (rogue in general actually) may be tanking like in an instance group and what not. Also, if your pre AGI dps is very high you are better off with crits than AGI proc. The AGI proc is better for rogues in a less than ideal group. I was reading through a lot of this thread since some assassin came by to call for a nerf bat on the swash boards. I had a few questions about some of the responses here. 1. As an assassin why would you want to be in the MT group? If your primary role is DPS your ideal group would include an illusionist for the double attack proc, a trouby for haste, deaggro, and Jesters (very valuable for you guys with a number of 2 minute recast abilitites), a fury for agitate and vim, a wizard for INT/STR and a helluva nice proc that you get 60% crit rate if the trouby has DKTM. None of those classes are regularly found in a MT group. Most main tank groups will buff DPS through a dirge or coercer and you guys get plenty of that. Also guardians do not buff STR or Int. You would only get a defiler weapon proc, etc... The buffs and classes typically in a MT group actually fit a swashy better. Personally I want to be in the group that is most beneficial to the raid, which for an assassin is probably not the MT group. 2. An extention of question 1. Why do you say "a swashbuckler in the same group". Swahbucklers and Assassins are very different in how they benefit from other classes as I just touched on above. 3. Your KoS AAs give you 14% melee crit, 52% spell crit, 1 minute reduction on two of you big CAs, and a basically free poison based attack that can crit for a ton of damage. Swashbucklers get 14% melee crit and a 14% increase to auto attack damage. Yes, a one hander double attacking figures to be a 14% increase over dual wielding. Those saying your KoS AAs suck are just looking for something to complain about. 4. Swasbucklers have to do 45% of their DPS with auto attack. If a swash and assassin were both dual wielding they would do equal melee damage on single targets, but since the assassin CAs do more damage, the swashbuckler auto attack is a larger %. Since the Wisdom line increases rogue DPS by increasing auto attack the piece of the pie that is auto attack is larger for the swashbuckler. Comparing auto attack percentages means nothing. Okay, that's all. I'll let you get back to your thread. I just wanted to clear up some inconsistencies since I was interested in what was going on due that that nerf call on the swash boards.

Jayad

03-12-2007, 09:01 PM

Good questions. I'll try to help.1. <Assassin in MT group>It's not a good place to be for DPS. Some guilds like mine have 1 coercer and so often an assassin or swashy is in the MT group so the coercer can buff some swashies/rangers. (It's tough to change "the way things are" in guilds sometimes even when you know something is better) 2. An extention of question 1. Why do you say "a swashbuckler in the same group". I agree. A swashy should compete more with a ranger in terms of what dps group they go into and what spots they get. However, being a melee class, other than the haste/dps difference you actually want many of the same buffs. So if a raid leader is setting up a raid, sometimes you need some scout melee spots and have assassins, swashies, and rogues primarily filling that role. With either of the rogues you get some significant debuff advantages, as well as with swashies getting a group AOE avoid. 3. Your KoS AAs give you 14% melee crit, 52% spell crit, 1 minute reduction on two of you big CAs, and a basically free poison based attack that can crit for a ton of damage. Swashbucklers get 14% melee crit and a 14% increase to auto attack damage. Yes, a one hander double attacking figures to be a 14% increase over dual wielding. Those saying your KoS AAs suck are just looking for something to complain about.Those saying the KoS AAs suck are idiots. Plain and simple. The KOS AAs are pretty good, but the EOF AAs are terrible for assassins. 4. Swasbucklers have to do 45% of their DPS with auto attack. If a swash and assassin were both dual wielding they would do equal melee damage on single targets, but since the assassin CAs do more damage, the swashbuckler auto attack is a larger %. Since the Wisdom line increases rogue DPS by increasing auto attack the piece of the pie that is auto attack is larger for the swashbuckler. Comparing auto attack percentages means nothing. I agree. I don't think it really matters. What does matter is the relative total DPS amounts, and in what circumstances. Compare that to the other things the classes can do. Since rogues have superior utility the assassins should have superior dps. It doesn't have to be a large difference but it should be there. One thing that should be considered, though, is that certain buffs have a big difference depending on the target. If you buff haste or dps on a swashy they will get a bigger benefit because the have multipliers on top of it like double attack and multi-attack. It's like stacking a high crit % with a large weapon spread, it's a lot more beneficial depending on what it's going on. Because assassins rely on CAs for so much of our dmg, we are proprotionaly hurt a bit by the lack of double attacks and such when we get haste/dps buffs. They're offset a bit by our spell proc %, etc. so you have to take into account everything.

HellRaiserXX

03-12-2007, 11:45 PM

I actually prefer a dirge over a troub when it comes to ideal DPS group, you still get the 7.5 Crit boost from DKTM and Cacaphony of blades adds alot of DPS. and having a zerker in the grp does quite a bit too. Whats nice about the grp you outlined is that I can be in the mage grp and have all those buffs to myself. I definately agree that I dont want to be in the MT grp, my DPS drops dramatically when Im put in there. I find a lot of melee classes want cacaphony of blades and that seems to be the kind of grp everyone is clamouring for.Im very disgusted that some of my fellow assassins actually had the gall to call for a nerf on your boards. Thats just low and very unprofessional. Even if it was just Dastone. That kinda [Removed for Content] just makes things worse and we will have full blown Assassin vs Swashy wars on the forums in no time!

Jvaloth

03-13-2007, 03:32 AM

MT group usually is: Zerker, Dirge, Templar, Defiler, Coercer, Assassin/SwashAnd kudos for going to swash forums and calling for a nerf. If you read their own threads there were swashies saying "Guys, I think we have a nerf incoming" and swashies were talking about how it was EQ 2 on easy mode etc. And then they got flamed and people kept talkign about not posting on the thread so that it would die and wouldnt get dev attention...Swashies need to get nerfed.

judged_one

03-13-2007, 12:43 PM

Kellindril (AGI is great for raids but is much less useful in any situation where the swash ) 1.) First of all, most of the people posting on this thread are raiders. Any swashy raiding will be taking agi. (s an assassin why would you want to be in the MT group?) 2.) So as a swashy why would you want to be in MT group. It is not a matter of want, rather role. If a swashy is doing comparable single DPS, and ,more multi DPS and have a comparable aggro transfer with better debuff then assassin just lost both DPS role and MT hate transfer role. Assassin has 3 roles in a raid a) DPS b) Burst DPS c) Hate transfer in MT And atm a) is questionable. Since we are 50/50 compare to swashy b) Necro + Wizard > Assassin c) Swashy is beating us, since most tanks like to have more aoe aggro vs single aggro While Swashy a)DPS b)MT hate transfer c)Debuffer d)AoE immunity for group that doesnt have a bard (why do you say "a swashbuckler in the same group) So we can compare actual DPS output. With same buff, swashy are out dpsing us in group, and 30/70 in solo mob. (Depending on if inspiration is up vs if our killing blade/Decapitate is up) (why do you say "a swashbuckler in the same group) I don't recall anyone complaining about kos AA. One of my biggest question is the decision to allow rouge to go 1 hander + doble atack, but not allowing assassin to have the same ability. Due to weird proc mechanic, we all know 1 hander is procing a lot more. Back in LU 20something, DW are nerfed so only main hand is procing poison now. But Hurricane + Reach + Cheldrek shard will beat any DW combo in game atm. Also according to my parse you guys are doing 4%ish more poison damage zone parse. (Swasbucklers have to do 45% of their DPS with auto attack.) So Swashy is over powered. To realize that 45% damage comes from melee attack is insane. a) Auto melee = no powercomsumption = more sustained DPS in long fight b) Auto melee + Reach+Hurricane = no need to reposition or move around like other class = less time wasted c) Auto melee + Reach + Hurricane = Jousting is takes shorter, instead of moving that extra 5 m both ways = 10 meters) = more damage during joust But thanks for showing us why swashy is indeed overpowered. So either SOE buff the other 22 classes or nerf swashy and necro. The choice is pretty obvious.

Kokus

03-13-2007, 01:53 PM

Over at the eq2flames Raina posted a poll referring to my little thread here. It even got one of those dev response thingys I've heard about.<a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/showthread.php?t=4185" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/showthread.php?t=4185</a>As for people who thinking I'm here whining that I'm not #1 dps, that's fine if that's what you think. I'm just confused why swashbucklers recieve so much AAs to boost their melee dps far above and beyond all others, while the Assassin AAs hardly do anything and the EoF AAs leave us quite confused as to where to spend our points for the most potential dps increase, which is still very very little per point spent compared to other melee classes (not just swashbucklers)Lockeye mentioned utility in our AAs. I think the 'utility' we do have in our AA lines are completely pvp oriented which is part of the problem. If some of that 'utility' was something we could use in a raid situation, I would be quite happy. Finally, Raina, there is no need to keep questioning the apply poison breaking stealth thing. That's something that's been /bug'd and complained about since Deserts of Flame, and is easily tested to confirm.

Gorhauth

03-13-2007, 03:28 PM

<cite>judged_one wrote:</cite><blockquote>(why do you say "a swashbuckler in the same group) So we can compare actual DPS output. With same buff, swashy are out dpsing us in group, and 30/70 in solo mob. </blockquote>Trying to compare the two classes by using the same buffs is just ignorant. They benefit more from different buffs than assassins do. Having both in the same group [Removed for Content] one of them. The best way is to get a non-suck assassin in a good assassin oriented group and a non-suck swash in a swashy oriented group.

judged_one

03-13-2007, 03:53 PM

<cite>Gorhauth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>judged_one wrote:</cite><blockquote>(why do you say "a swashbuckler in the same group) So we can compare actual DPS output. With same buff, swashy are out dpsing us in group, and 30/70 in solo mob. </blockquote>Trying to compare the two classes by using the same buffs is just ignorant. They benefit more from different buffs than assassins do. Having both in the same group [Removed for Content] one of them. The best way is to get a non-suck assassin in a good assassin oriented group and a non-suck swash in a swashy oriented group. </blockquote>i) OK... So let see what buff is total irrelevent from assassin to swashy. 1.) STR 2.) INT 3.) Haste 4.) DPS Mod 5.) Melee CritGuess not ! ii) The only way to test is to start with a consistent base. This is the common practice of testing. iii) Dirge + Coercer + Inq or Fury / Dirge + illusionist + Inq or FuryThese are the 2 that should be tested. With out single buff to favour any class iv) In most case we are talking about the diffferent between Haste vs DPS.So explain to me which you think will favour another class more. To be honest it should net out about the same.While Crit will slightly favour assassin more. But with a Dirge, both will get DKTM and LotD. So how is it ignorant to test swashy and assassin in the same group, please enlighten us.

judged_one

03-13-2007, 03:58 PM

Elvannshalee@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>Over at the eq2flames Raina posted a poll referring to my little thread here. It even got one of those dev response thingys I've heard about.<a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/showthread.php?t=4185" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/showthread.php?t=4185</a>As for people who thinking I'm here whining that I'm not #1 dps, that's fine if that's what you think. I'm just confused why swashbucklers recieve so much AAs to boost their melee dps far above and beyond all others, while the Assassin AAs hardly do anything and the EoF AAs leave us quite confused as to where to spend our points for the most potential dps increase, which is still very very little per point spent compared to other melee classes (not just swashbucklers)Lockeye mentioned utility in our AAs. I think the 'utility' we do have in our AA lines are completely pvp oriented which is part of the problem. If some of that 'utility' was something we could use in a raid situation, I would be quite happy. Finally, Raina, there is no need to keep questioning the apply poison breaking stealth thing. That's something that's been /bug'd and complained about since Deserts of Flame, and is easily tested to confirm.</blockquote> btw Raine, I tested out that bug a long time ago. Apply poison on a group mate. Sit in stealth. Watch it break. Till this day, I don't put that buff on anyone unless they start crying about it. (Well mainly the dirge that want to DPS.)

Gorhauth

03-13-2007, 04:05 PM

<cite>judged_one wrote:</cite><blockquote>i) OK... So let see what buff is total irrelevent from assassin to swashy. 1.) STR 2.) INT 3.) Haste 4.) DPS Mod 5.) Melee CritGuess not ! ii) The only way to test is to start with a consistent base. This is the common practice of testing. iii) Dirge + Coercer + Inq or Fury / Dirge + illusionist + Inq or FuryThese are the 2 that should be tested. With out single buff to favour any class iv) In most case we are talking about the diffferent between Haste vs DPS.So explain to me which you think will favour another class more. To be honest it should net out about the same.While Crit will slightly favour assassin more. But with a Dirge, both will get DKTM and LotD. So how is it ignorant to test swashy and assassin in the same group, please enlighten us. </blockquote>Not totally relevant, less relevant. Take the most simple example you threw out there, without any understanding about it at all. Both classes in a group with a fury. Aggitate can only be put on a single person at a time. Who are you going to give it to? Try thinking stuff through, and you might be able to see why both in the same group won't give an accurate representation.

brhead

03-13-2007, 04:21 PM

lets nerf the swashy and the necro and the conj and the wizzy and the....... then lets say why cant i bet this raid mob they ninja nerfed it on us [Removed for Content]. or we could all put the [Removed for Content] away and just kick that content in the teeth. its just a parse for crying outloud...

judged_one

03-13-2007, 05:04 PM

<cite>Gorhauth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>judged_one wrote:</cite><blockquote>i) OK... So let see what buff is total irrelevent from assassin to swashy. 1.) STR 2.) INT 3.) Haste 4.) DPS Mod 5.) Melee CritGuess not ! ii) The only way to test is to start with a consistent base. This is the common practice of testing. iii) Dirge + Coercer + Inq or Fury / Dirge + illusionist + Inq or FuryThese are the 2 that should be tested. With out single buff to favour any class iv) In most case we are talking about the diffferent between Haste vs DPS.So explain to me which you think will favour another class more. To be honest it should net out about the same.While Crit will slightly favour assassin more. But with a Dirge, both will get DKTM and LotD. So how is it ignorant to test swashy and assassin in the same group, please enlighten us. </blockquote>Not totally relevant, less relevant. Take the most simple example you threw out there, without any understanding about it at all. Both classes in a group with a fury. Aggitate can only be put on a single person at a time. Who are you going to give it to? Try thinking stuff through, and you might be able to see why both in the same group won't give an accurate representation. </blockquote> "with out single buff to favour any class" Try reading more carefully before spilling out comment like "Try thinking stuff through" You still have yet to point out your so call relevancy? And give me a good reason why having a "control" in a test is not accurate representation.If A is parsing > B with same set of buff, would it be safe to assume that A > B Once again in any testing, you must have a so call "Control" a similar set up(i.e same group, same buff, same mob) to have any useful data. But do enlighten us of what kind of testing you are suggesting. And how that will be a better representation.

Jvaloth

03-13-2007, 07:41 PM

------------------------------------- "Not totally relevant, less relevant. Take the most simple example you threw out there, without any understanding about it at all. Both classes in a group with a fury. Aggitate can only be put on a single person at a time. Who are you going to give it to? Try thinking stuff through, and you might be able to see why both in the same group won't give an accurate representation."--------------------------------------------Gorhauth,Clearly you are misunderstanding. When we say put assassin or swashy in same group we are not saying in the same group TOGETHER. But in a group with the same buffs. Aka = Zerker, Dirge, Coercer, Templar, Defiler, Assassin OR Zerker, Dirge, Coercer, Templar, Defiler, Swashbuckler and then comparing DPS. Or building an ideal melee DPS group and swap the assassin and swash places and watch the parses.

Jvaloth

03-13-2007, 07:45 PM

This was Lockeye's response on another forum from that link posted above:Notice he'll post a response on a non EQ 2 official forum but when he posts here its a threat about nerfing us. Also notice the title under his name on the forum "Dictator of Nerfs".-----------------1) How do you feel about Assassin AAs? They could be better, utility-wise. 2) and the current state of the Assassin? Excellent shape I see the actual DPS averages across all classes, servers, group sizes, etc. on daily reports. No matter how players will try to exaggerate their posts on the message boards repetitively to attempt convincing me otherwise, I know where Assassins actually perform in relation to all other classes. There is not enough justification to warrant Assassins their own achievement revamp as a priority before any other class that do not like their achievements, than to evaluate across all achievements for all classes when that time becomes available.-------------------------Lockeye, one would think that your priority as the self proclaimed "Dictator of Nerfs" would be to nerf supposed Tier 2 classes taht are blowing away parses, have a TON more debuffs and raid utility, soloability and everything else they bring to the table. Swashbuckler = Scout on easy mode. They can do it all and do it all better than an assassin. One thing that your little zone wide world parses might not show is the fact that assassins spec one way and one way only since we have no other way to go.. and thats DPS (Whether we raid or group or solo). Where as some swashies are spec'd to tank (because they can), some are spec'd for debuffs ala Traumatic swipe etc (because they can) and some are spec'd for Tier 1 DPS (because they can). You need only look at the comments made in the past 2 pages of this thread to understand why Swashy's have a clear advantage in virtually EVERY situation to do both more DPS than an assassin with less effort. 45% Auto attack, reach 20m, uber short buffs, auto stance that hits multiple targets, multiple double attacks on multiple opponents, poison procs on multiple targets, AOE immunities on a shorter recast than bard/druids (I believe), etc etc etc the list goes on. Look at thier self buffs even, totatally geared for DPS where assassin's self buffs give you AGI and DPS and thats it! Look the class specific gear as an over all set and their set of armor gives better DPS stats and abilities too...Its truely unreal with all these glaring FACTs that you have Devs with the inability to post a real meaningful response that doesnt include a threat to nerf assassins. Where is the Dev that has the balls to come forward and say "Oops, I think we over did it a little with some of these Tier 2 classes".

HellRaiserXX

03-13-2007, 08:38 PM

Dictator of Nerfs is a title given to him by the player base and only reflects the fact that when a "nerf" comes along he is the person whos got last word on it. Its a joke dude lol. The devs are no more eager to hand out nerfs as most of are to call for them. Despite popular oppinion they are trying to make this game fun for everyone cause if it wasnt they would lose players and losing players means losing money. Nerfs are no fun for for anyone.

steelbadger

03-13-2007, 09:10 PM

What I thought was more interesting was that he has his character linked to his forum tag, 70 brig in what looks like a recently dead raid guild. 50+ days of /played time. On the real subject though... Why are you still argueing? DPS across guilds and servers is as changeable as the sea. One assassin may be getting the raw end of the deal, with a swash getting the good buffs (not necessarily for any good reason, maybe simply because they always have) and that assassin may complain bitterly about swashy dps. On the other hand the assassin might get to be in a group tailored to their needs, and those assassins say that we're fine, no problems. You cannot argue about these things, because there can be no definitive answer. In my guild (casual as it may be) I parse highest by quite a margin. In one RE raid guild a swashy wins most of the parses (no assassin), in another guild an assassin and a wizzy have it out for the No.1 position, with a swashy coming in 4-5, in still another a necro wins by a decent amount, with their assassins coming in behind. There is no standard here, you cannot compare classes based on a single raid force, and you cannot compare raid forces because of all the different setups used. It is pointless, why is it pointless? Because there is no trend that can be seen despite the inconsistancies, in DoF we pretty much sucked. In 90% of guilds an Assassin would be easily outparsed by a ranger. In KoS Assassins would win 99% of parses by considerable margins. In EoF there is no real trend like we have seen before, what does this mean? It means that the difference between Assassins, Swashies, Wizards and Necros is small enough to be masked by inconsistancies in group builds. I'll agree that our EoF AA's are pretty weak (although I do like Hemo, Exacting and Getaway still), but we as a class are not. You may argue that we should not be parsing roughly equal with Swashies because of their "Utility" but when it comes down to it I do not see Assassins being dropped left, right and centre for Swashies. I think KoS spoiled us, it would seem that we grew used to parsing first, and even grew to expect it. As someone who remembers the DoF times I am quite happy with being equal, when we are all equal no-one stands out, and he who stands out is the first to be beaten down. Thats my thoughts anyway. PS: What is all this "if your guild's swashy/necro/wizzy isn't outparsing you then they suck"? Keep it out, because I can simply say "If you aren't beating your swashy/wizzy/necro then YOU suck" and we get nowhere. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

HellRaiserXX

03-14-2007, 12:20 AM

Algazeed@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>What I thought was more interesting was that he has his character linked to his forum tag, 70 brig in what looks like a recently dead raid guild. 50+ days of /played time. On the real subject though... Why are you still argueing? DPS across guilds and servers is as changeable as the sea. One assassin may be getting the raw end of the deal, with a swash getting the good buffs (not necessarily for any good reason, maybe simply because they always have) and that assassin may complain bitterly about swashy dps. On the other hand the assassin might get to be in a group tailored to their needs, and those assassins say that we're fine, no problems. You cannot argue about these things, because there can be no definitive answer. In my guild (casual as it may be) I parse highest by quite a margin. In one RE raid guild a swashy wins most of the parses (no assassin), in another guild an assassin and a wizzy have it out for the No.1 position, with a swashy coming in 4-5, in still another a necro wins by a decent amount, with their assassins coming in behind. There is no standard here, you cannot compare classes based on a single raid force, and you cannot compare raid forces because of all the different setups used. It is pointless, why is it pointless? Because there is no trend that can be seen despite the inconsistancies, in DoF we pretty much sucked. In 90% of guilds an Assassin would be easily outparsed by a ranger. In KoS Assassins would win 99% of parses by considerable margins. In EoF there is no real trend like we have seen before, what does this mean? It means that the difference between Assassins, Swashies, Wizards and Necros is small enough to be masked by inconsistancies in group builds. I'll agree that our EoF AA's are pretty weak (although I do like Hemo, Exacting and Getaway still), but we as a class are not. You may argue that we should not be parsing roughly equal with Swashies because of their "Utility" but when it comes down to it I do not see Assassins being dropped left, right and centre for Swashies. I think KoS spoiled us, it would seem that we grew used to parsing first, and even grew to expect it. As someone who remembers the DoF times I am quite happy with being equal, when we are all equal no-one stands out, and he who stands out is the first to be beaten down. Thats my thoughts anyway. PS: What is all this "if your guild's swashy/necro/wizzy isn't outparsing you then they suck"? Keep it out, because I can simply say "If you aren't beating your swashy/wizzy/necro then YOU suck" and we get nowhere. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> Well said

LordAzure

03-14-2007, 11:04 AM

whats sad is that we have most of the post by assassins supporting that there needs to be a change. i for one agree also. but that there are 2 or 3 negative people who seem to want to beat down those wanting change is sad. and make me think they support mr bush. haha had to get my 3 cents in.

HellRaiserXX

03-14-2007, 11:41 AM

just because the majority support change doesnt mean its the right thing to do, also doesnt mean it isnt. I think almost every one of us wants some kind of change, the disagreement comes in as to the level and severity of the change. Also the people posting are a pretty small fraction of the actual assassin population and is hardly representive of the popular oppinion. It may be the popular oppinion, but that can't be accurately determined based on the oppinions presented here.

judged_one

03-14-2007, 01:12 PM

<cite>HellRaiserXX wrote:</cite><blockquote>just because the majority support change doesnt mean its the right thing to do, also doesnt mean it isnt. I think almost every one of us wants some kind of change, the disagreement comes in as to the level and severity of the change. Also the people posting are a pretty small fraction of the actual assassin population and is hardly representive of the popular oppinion. It may be the popular oppinion, but that can't be accurately determined based on the oppinions presented here.</blockquote>Just because Raine disagree doesn't mean it is the wrong thing to do. Doesn't take Einstein to realize there is a balance issue here.

Xevim

03-14-2007, 02:23 PM

Fact: The damage gap between assassins and other classes is as close as it has been in long while. And we're just not talking about tier 1 damage classes either. There are a lot of tier 2 and 3 classes that can get very high dps now. Fact: The only thing that has really changed since KOS to EOF is class AA (beside the combat changes, which affected all classes). A lot of classes received direct dps upgrades through AAs. Fact: Assassin utility is still very small in comparison to other classes. These are classes we are directly competing with now (classes that recieved additional DPS from AA). Our AA's are awful. Did we get utility in exchange for other classes getting dps upgrades, no. Assassins barely get a fair amount of DSP by spending 50 points in our class tree. Fact: Group make up contributes has a lot to do with Raid dps. If some assassins don't have a better than average raid dps setup, it would be very easy for some of the classes to out dps them, since the gap is so close now. Fact: No other class has more stealth and position requirements than an assassin. Opinion: Assassins having have less utility, have work more for their dps, and don't solo nearly as well as some other classes for marginally better dps, just doesn't add up, especially since you can trace DPS increases directly to EoF AAs.Opinion: Are assassins OK with dps, yes. Do I have to be content with the fact that now compete with other classes that have great utility than I do, no. That is why other assassins speak out because we would like more out of our AAs, just like other classes got. Is this wrong? Nope. Will SoE change the situation for Assassins? I don't think they will. I just hope that in the next content release they correct the damage/utility of classes, but then again it could get worse.

liveja

03-14-2007, 02:34 PM

<cite>Jvaloth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pred/Sorcs do one thing and one thing only, DPS. We shouldnt have to be looking over our backs or worse yet, looking up at the parse winner podium and see the Gold, Silver and Bronze medals around the necks of swashbucklers and necromancers. Its utter BS.</blockquote>To me, the REAL BS is whiney little gits like YOU, who worry so much about your precious "DPS Parse" standings that you can't even have fun playing a game.Then, you're so bent out of shape you have to come to OUR forum & troll us.Grow up & deal, or cancel your account. Either way is fine by me.As for the thread: I'm all in favor of Assassins being buffed. I'm all in favor of Assassins consistently out-DPSing me. But I'm sick & tired of low-life punks demanding that MY class get nerfed.

judged_one

03-14-2007, 03:13 PM

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jvaloth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pred/Sorcs do one thing and one thing only, DPS. We shouldnt have to be looking over our backs or worse yet, looking up at the parse winner podium and see the Gold, Silver and Bronze medals around the necks of swashbucklers and necromancers. Its utter BS.</blockquote>To me, the REAL BS is whiney little gits like YOU, who worry so much about your precious "DPS Parse" standings that you can't even have fun playing a game.Then, you're so bent out of shape you have to come to OUR forum & troll us.Grow up & deal, or cancel your account. Either way is fine by me.As for the thread: I'm all in favor of Assassins being buffed. I'm all in favor of Assassins consistently out-DPSing me. But I'm sick & tired of low-life punks demanding that MY class get nerfed. </blockquote>Yea don't you hate it when other class come to our forum and troll. It is a simple equation. A.) Buff Assassin(DPS or Utility) B.) Nerf SwashySo if A is not going to happen than it will be B.I rather have A personally.

brhead

03-14-2007, 03:17 PM

Xuel@Najena wrote: <blockquote>Opinion: Are assassins OK with dps, yes. Do I have to be content with the fact that now compete with other classes that have great utility than I do, no. That is why other assassins speak out because we would like more out of our AAs, just like other classes got. Is this wrong? Nope. Will SoE change the situation for Assassins? I don't think they will. I just hope that in the next content release they correct the damage/utility of classes, but then again it could get worse. </blockquote> this i can deal with but to come to the swashy boards saying batter up the nerf is coming is just wrong.... ask to be fixed yourself and not to beat down yet again another class so you can feel better about what you can or can not do

Kokus

03-14-2007, 05:21 PM

<cite>brhead wrote:</cite><blockquote>Xuel@Najena wrote: <blockquote>Opinion: Are assassins OK with dps, yes. Do I have to be content with the fact that now compete with other classes that have great utility than I do, no. That is why other assassins speak out because we would like more out of our AAs, just like other classes got. Is this wrong? Nope. Will SoE change the situation for Assassins? I don't think they will. I just hope that in the next content release they correct the damage/utility of classes, but then again it could get worse. </blockquote> this i can deal with but to come to the swashy boards saying batter up the nerf is coming is just wrong.... ask to be fixed yourself and not to beat down yet again another class so you can feel better about what you can or can not do</blockquote>You're right, that post was really pointless on the swashy forums. I just barely looked over there and read through it and I realize that over half the swashbucklers either don't have 100 AAs, or just went down the wrong trees. The #s that they are posting up there are laughable. Like the one claiming assasins are still tier 1 cause they do over 2k dps.. That's right, we do. But we're looking up at the swashbuckler doing 3-4k+ and wondering 'w-t-f?'Maybe as more swashbucklers wake up, and realize their potential, maybe the devs will start to notice that shift in their server wide parses they put so much stock into. Until then, I can at least restart the crusade about how utterly disappointing and pathetic and counter intuitive our AAs are for the assassin class.

Xevim

03-14-2007, 05:24 PM

HellRaiserXX

03-14-2007, 06:02 PM

Theres a few things Id like to see changed, but nothing major. I agree with Lockeye about there not being justification enough for the kind of AA revamp people are clamoring for. I mean what is being proposed is huge and I just dont see the justification for something that huge. The situation is not that bad. I mean really take a good look at what is being proposed. 1) Buff DPS, ok thats easy since everything we do is DPS. However, Swashys and necros and whoever else aside, I dont think anyone can deny that the T1 classes are pretty well balanced. So A) buff just assassin DPS and unbalance everything even more or B) revamp all of Tier 1, which if you think about it assassins would get better, but the other T1 classes would get a lot better from where they were pre-EoF and then you would have other people complaining that it isnt fair that wizards, warlocks, and rangers got such amazing stuff compared to everyone else. 2) It seems to be that the biggest gripe against T2 classes is that they have a good deal more utility and can still do very good DPS. So A) You give assassins more utility, something I am decidedly against expecially to the extent at which it would have to be. Well how would that be accomplished? We have no utility and since EoF only improves on pre-existing abilities and the effects they currently have there is hardly anything there to work with. There are just not enough options in our EoF tree to give us the kind of utility that would be comparable to T2 utility. You would have to literally replace all of the end line abilities with utility based choices and you wouldnt even be able to utilize them all. Changing Excessive Bleeding would help some, but I doubt it would be enough to satify a lot of us. The other option B) would be to nerf T2 DPS to be more in line with the amount of utility they have, which I simply will not go along with. I would rather leave everything as is than have something like that happen. Nerfing swashies wouldnt be enough because Necros, conjs etc etc also have really good DPS and more utility than an assassin, but I dont think that much more utility than wizards or warlocks. To really "balance" it you would have to nerf them all and thats just a plain [Removed for Content] rediculous notion. All this is assuming the DPS tiers even matter, which I beginning to believe more and more that they dont. You cant factor player ability and the 100s (1000s?) of variations of group setups, raid setups, gear, type of encounter, etc etc into something like that. I just simply is not possible. The way I look at DPS tiers is like a mathmatical model and with any mathmatical models there are assumptions in place to eliminate variability. In reality the assumptions are not realistic because there is variability and lots of it, but you have to have those assumptions so that the model works. Take many stock market models where they assume that every consumer has exactly the same expectations of how their portfolios will perform, but in reality there are probably not two individuals in the entire world who share the same expectations. I think the same can be said about the DPS tiers. They are a model of a perfect world in which each tier is perfectly balanced against the others, but in order to do that you have to assume that every single individual has exactly the same ability, the same level of gear, all groups are set up exactly the same, you get the point. So when all these things are put to practice in a variable environment things can get unbalanced and if its bad enough then measures have to be taken to correct it. We may very well be in such a situation, but I think the types of measures that would need to be taken in order to correct it are simply too extreme given the current situation. I think it would be less painful for everyone to do this level of balancing when new content is released, like a new AA tree or the level cap getting raised and that is probably a pretty long time in coming.

Xevim

03-14-2007, 06:16 PM

<cite>HellRaiserXX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Theres a few things Id like to see changed, but nothing major. I agree with Lockeye about there not being justification enough for the kind of AA revamp people are clamoring for. I mean what is being proposed is huge and I just dont see the justification for something that huge. The situation is not that bad. I mean really take a good look at what is being proposed. 1) Buff DPS, ok thats easy since everything we do is DPS. However, Swashys and necros and whoever else aside, I dont think anyone can deny that the T1 classes are pretty well balanced. So A) buff just assassin DPS and unbalance everything even more or B) revamp all of Tier 1, which if you think about it assassins would get better, but the other T1 classes would get a lot better from where they were pre-EoF and then you would have other people complaining that it isnt fair that wizards, warlocks, and rangers got such amazing stuff compared to everyone else. 2) It seems to be that the biggest gripe against T2 classes is that they have a good deal more utility and can still do very good DPS. So A) You give assassins more utility, something I am decidedly against expecially to the extent at which it would have to be. Well how would that be accomplished? We have no utility and since EoF only improves on pre-existing abilities and the effects they currently have there is hardly anything there to work with. There are just not enough options in our EoF tree to give us the kind of utility that would be comparable to T2 utility. You would have to literally replace all of the end line abilities with utility based choices and you wouldnt even be able to utilize them all. Changing Excessive Bleeding would help some, but I doubt it would be enough to satify a lot of us. The other option B) would be to nerf T2 DPS to be more in line with the amount of utility they have, which I simply will not go along with. I would rather leave everything as is than have something like that happen. Nerfing swashies wouldnt be enough because Necros, conjs etc etc also have really good DPS and more utility than an assassin, but I dont think that much more utility than wizards or warlocks. To really "balance" it you would have to nerf them all and thats just a plain [I cannot control my vocabulary] rediculous notion. All this is assuming the DPS tiers even matter, which I beginning to believe more and more that they dont. You cant factor player ability and the 100s (1000s?) of variations of group setups, raid setups, gear, type of encounter, etc etc into something like that. I just simply is not possible. The way I look at DPS tiers is like a mathmatical model and with any mathmatical models there are assumptions in place to eliminate variability. In reality the assumptions are not realistic because there is variability and lots of it, but you have to have those assumptions so that the model works. Take many stock market models where they assume that every consumer has exactly the same expectations of how their portfolios will perform, but in reality there are probably not two individuals in the entire world who share the same expectations. I think the same can be said about the DPS tiers. They are a model of a perfect world in which each tier is perfectly balanced against the others, but in order to do that you have to assume that every single individual has exactly the same ability, the same level of gear, all groups are set up exactly the same, you get the point. So when all these things are put to practice in a variable environment things can get unbalanced and if its bad enough then measures have to be taken to correct it. We may very well be in such a situation, but I think the types of measures that would need to be taken in order to correct it are simply too extreme given the current situation. I think it would be less painful for everyone to do this level of balancing when new content is released, like a new AA tree or the level cap getting raised and that is probably a pretty long time in coming. </blockquote>Fine, if they DPS tiers don't matter why not give assassin more utility. If classes are closing in on Assassin DPS I don't see a reason why we should be able to have more utility or more soloiblity. When I signed up for an assassin I knew I was giving up something for tier 1 dps. If everyone else all the sudden has tier 1 like dps, then what's the point? Oh and since were getting all philosophical. One could argue that assassins were pre-nerfed. Someone made a decision to make the assassin AAs comparatively weaker. You can’t tell me the assassin developer sat in a room all by himself and never compared notes with other class designers. BTW I don't buy into this, I am just playing devil's advocate here. I do and would like to continue to believe that the dps tiers matter.

LoreLady

03-14-2007, 07:29 PM

I still dont buy that swashbucklers are overpowering assassins in all situations, or that assassins dont have the option to modify there own aa's for AE+single target.. Last night the asssassin parsed top parse in hos - for 2.2k zonewide.. Swash parsed 1.7k zonewide - the swash/assassin were in the same group.

Jvaloth

03-14-2007, 07:57 PM

I'm not a whiney "git" and I have no issues going to your forums and calling your BS. You have countless threads blowing smoke up peoples arses saying "We are perfect" "We are right where we should be" etc etc while your class is stepping all over Assassin territory (aka DPS) and bring 10 X the utility, debuffs, AE immunities, etc etc. Ofcourse you guys think you are right where you are supposed to be, you are tearing up the parses, debuffing the crap out of the mobs, tanking raid encounters, offering utility from AEs, etc etc I think assassins have the right to be [Removed for Content] that our AA's suck and that our DPS is being challenged by auto attacking , short buff mashing, AE monster scouts that can do everything an assassin can do, only better.I'll continue to call for a swashy nerf until either A) Swashies DPS is nerfed or B) Assassins DPS and/or Utility is significantly increased.Thats the bottom line.And Lorelady, I think previous posts in this thread already debunked what you are speaking of. First of all, your swashy is spec'd wrong. He/she is spec'd STR/WIS or STR/AGI, I forget. AGI/WIS is the raid DPS spec that will get the monster DPS numbers. And secondly, having both the assassin and swashy in the same group with the same buffs sounds good in theory, but like others have eluded to, some buffers can only buff 1 person. Whose to say that the assassin didnt have Illusory arm or Agitate etc.

Jayad

03-14-2007, 08:21 PM

Your swashy sucks.

steelbadger

03-14-2007, 09:14 PM

What did I say earlier about statements like that? Is it their swashy that sucks? Or it could be YOU that sucks... Hmmm... So leave it out.

HellRaiserXX

03-14-2007, 10:39 PM

Xuel@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>HellRaiserXX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Theres a few things Id like to see changed, but nothing major. I agree with Lockeye about there not being justification enough for the kind of AA revamp people are clamoring for. I mean what is being proposed is huge and I just dont see the justification for something that huge. The situation is not that bad. I mean really take a good look at what is being proposed. 1) Buff DPS, ok thats easy since everything we do is DPS. However, Swashys and necros and whoever else aside, I dont think anyone can deny that the T1 classes are pretty well balanced. So A) buff just assassin DPS and unbalance everything even more or B) revamp all of Tier 1, which if you think about it assassins would get better, but the other T1 classes would get a lot better from where they were pre-EoF and then you would have other people complaining that it isnt fair that wizards, warlocks, and rangers got such amazing stuff compared to everyone else. 2) It seems to be that the biggest gripe against T2 classes is that they have a good deal more utility and can still do very good DPS. So A) You give assassins more utility, something I am decidedly against expecially to the extent at which it would have to be. Well how would that be accomplished? We have no utility and since EoF only improves on pre-existing abilities and the effects they currently have there is hardly anything there to work with. There are just not enough options in our EoF tree to give us the kind of utility that would be comparable to T2 utility. You would have to literally replace all of the end line abilities with utility based choices and you wouldnt even be able to utilize them all. Changing Excessive Bleeding would help some, but I doubt it would be enough to satify a lot of us. The other option B) would be to nerf T2 DPS to be more in line with the amount of utility they have, which I simply will not go along with. I would rather leave everything as is than have something like that happen. Nerfing swashies wouldnt be enough because Necros, conjs etc etc also have really good DPS and more utility than an assassin, but I dont think that much more utility than wizards or warlocks. To really "balance" it you would have to nerf them all and thats just a plain [I cannot control my vocabulary] rediculous notion. All this is assuming the DPS tiers even matter, which I beginning to believe more and more that they dont. You cant factor player ability and the 100s (1000s?) of variations of group setups, raid setups, gear, type of encounter, etc etc into something like that. I just simply is not possible. The way I look at DPS tiers is like a mathmatical model and with any mathmatical models there are assumptions in place to eliminate variability. In reality the assumptions are not realistic because there is variability and lots of it, but you have to have those assumptions so that the model works. Take many stock market models where they assume that every consumer has exactly the same expectations of how their portfolios will perform, but in reality there are probably not two individuals in the entire world who share the same expectations. I think the same can be said about the DPS tiers. They are a model of a perfect world in which each tier is perfectly balanced against the others, but in order to do that you have to assume that every single individual has exactly the same ability, the same level of gear, all groups are set up exactly the same, you get the point. So when all these things are put to practice in a variable environment things can get unbalanced and if its bad enough then measures have to be taken to correct it. We may very well be in such a situation, but I think the types of measures that would need to be taken in order to correct it are simply too extreme given the current situation. I think it would be less painful for everyone to do this level of balancing when new content is released, like a new AA tree or the level cap getting raised and that is probably a pretty long time in coming. </blockquote>Fine, if they DPS tiers don't matter why not give assassin more utility. If classes are closing in on Assassin DPS I don't see a reason why we should be able to have more utility or more soloiblity. When I signed up for an assassin I knew I was giving up something for tier 1 dps. If everyone else all the sudden has tier 1 like dps, then what's the point? Oh and since were getting all philosophical. One could argue that assassins were pre-nerfed. Someone made a decision to make the assassin AAs comparatively weaker. You can’t tell me the assassin developer sat in a room all by himself and never compared notes with other class designers. BTW I don't buy into this, I am just playing devil's advocate here. I do and would like to continue to believe that the dps tiers matter. </blockquote>actually you are exactly right even if you are being philosophical, although I wouldnt necesarily call it a nerf since a nerf is going backwards whereas in this case we didnt really go anywhere. Forward a bit, but nothing compared to anyone else. Being as we were in KoS and it being pretty obvious now that SOE was trying to bring some balance to the classes, which they did for the most part, giving us too much in the way of improvements would have made them have to give even more to everyone else and you guys complain about MB and LB sheesh. I cant imagine what they wouldve got if wed of gotten AAs we would have been happy with.

Malandrin

03-15-2007, 11:20 AM

For all those who say that Assassins are now pretty well balanced etc:Balanced = having more or less the same DPS that other T2 classes have?Many "smart people" here think that if assassins dealt significantly more dps than other classes do, they would be overpowered, and that is so wrong. T1 dps class with 0 utility (Assassin) should deal MUCH HIGHER DPS than T2 dps class with A LOT of utility (swash, conj, necro...). Much higher!!! That would be balanced.

LoreLady

03-15-2007, 11:47 AM

Its funny how many people just say "your swash sucks" - or something like "you dont know anything about the game". It just shows me your own ignorance, or how much your trying to push "fact" through opinion. Yes swashy's do have more util, but compare a brigand and swash from class to class - ability to ability, look where the swash excells in damage, look at why a brig does not. Then look at where you excel in damage and where a swash does not.. Then look at the old and new content and see who will excel more.. A swash does not have the same debuffing skills as a brig by a longshot - even in the AA tree.. Take this into consideration when looking at the class.

HellRaiserXX

03-15-2007, 11:57 AM

<cite>Malandrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>For all those who say that Assassins are now pretty well balanced etc:Balanced = having more or less the same DPS that other T2 classes have?Many "smart people" here think that if assassins dealt significantly more dps than other classes do, they would be overpowered, and that is so wrong. T1 dps class with 0 utility (Assassin) should deal MUCH HIGHER DPS that T2 dps class with A LOT of utility (swash, conj, necro...). Much higher!!! That would be balanced.</blockquote> No its that assassins and assassins alone dealing significantly more DPS than the other classes is overpowered. I dont disagree that T1 classes should theoretically do significantly more DPS than T2, however assassins are not the only T1 class and for that to be true would require a pretty large revision of the classes. Assassins are very well balanced against their T1 counterparts, there is absolutely zero reason to boost assassins without doing the same to them and that just seems extremely drastic to me given the current situation.How do you even really determine how much more we should be doing given the plethora of different situations each of us may find ourselves in? Balance it to maximum capacity of each class? How do you define maximum capacity? Would it be based off the person who parses the highest out of us all or off tests done where the best possible group is made? Who can say what the acceptable level should be? Should every assassin be able to parse higher than every other T2 player regardless of player ability, gear, grp makeup yada yada? Ya thats gonna be possible. Like Algazeed said whats appears balanced in one situation wont in another. Like in my guild me and Nivla have very little problems staying on top and hes usually above me. Oh I get it our swashy must just suck, which may very well be the case, buts whose to say that even if she was good that we wouldnt be able to come out on top still. No one can honestly say that and be right because theres still a possibility that it might happen.

LordAzure

03-15-2007, 01:04 PM

give us utility or give us more dps so we are balanced it is that simple. until then boycot using your assassin. make a stand. no more assassins playing will show them less damage from assassins they will see less assassins logging in and ask why why why.. look here nerf master make all soe emplyie play assassins and watch a "change" in what we can and cant do. hahahahaa. umm ya

Kokus

03-15-2007, 02:03 PM

<cite>HellRaiserXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malandrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>For all those who say that Assassins are now pretty well balanced etc:Balanced = having more or less the same DPS that other T2 classes have?Many "smart people" here think that if assassins dealt significantly more dps than other classes do, they would be overpowered, and that is so wrong. T1 dps class with 0 utility (Assassin) should deal MUCH HIGHER DPS that T2 dps class with A LOT of utility (swash, conj, necro...). Much higher!!! That would be balanced.</blockquote> No its that assassins and assassins alone dealing significantly more DPS than the other classes is overpowered. I dont disagree that T1 classes should theoretically do significantly more DPS than T2, however assassins are not the only T1 class and for that to be true would require a pretty large revision of the classes. Assassins are very well balanced against their T1 counterparts, there is absolutely zero reason to boost assassins without doing the same to them and that just seems extremely drastic to me given the current situation.How do you even really determine how much more we should be doing given the plethora of different situations each of us may find ourselves in? Balance it to maximum capacity of each class? How do you define maximum capacity? Would it be based off the person who parses the highest out of us all or off tests done where the best possible group is made? Who can say what the acceptable level should be? Should every assassin be able to parse higher than every other T2 player regardless of player ability, gear, grp makeup yada yada? Ya thats gonna be possible. Like Algazeed said whats appears balanced in one situation wont in another. Like in my guild me and Nivla have very little problems staying on top and hes usually above me. Oh I get it our swashy must just suck, which may very well be the case, buts whose to say that even if she was good that we wouldnt be able to come out on top still. No one can honestly say that and be right because theres still a possibility that it might happen.</blockquote> Getting closer Raina! I'd have to agree that in zone wides, assassins and wizards appear to be very close as tier 1 counterparts. We seem to be balanced quite well. That's comparing 2 wizards to 2 assassins in my guild. Our dps #s are comparable(with or without manaburn spec). That doesn't change the fact that our AAs are counter intuitive to our class, some of our abilities are still broken, or in the case of one ranged AA line that got it's recast doubled at the DoF time but it's damage kept the same as if it was on its 30 second recast. Or does it change the fact that a "tier 2" dps class who is supposed to make up for lack of tier 1 dps by having a ton more utility than us, can effectively spec their AAs to absolutely demolish all other melee classes in all situations. There is a very rude guy on the eq2 flames who can't seem to 'control his language' with every other word that says that a swashy can't do 3-4k+ dps. Oh yes they can, and they can do it on single target mobs. I'd show parses but it's frowned upon to publicly post parses from our raids. I assure you however that the numbers are real. I've pushed out 3k dps, just to see the swashbuckler pushing out 4k dps (at least 1 minute fights) Looking at the detailed parse information.. it would appear that the massive amount of damage is coming from their auto attack. His auto attack is over twice what mine is. I believe I was looking at one single target parse where my auto attack with an illusionist and zerker was 610,000 on a fight, and his was 1,340,000 with a coercer/dirge. That's just auto attack damage(he's using chel'drak's shard, i'm using GDoH and Thirgen's Thorn(sp?) I looked at the rest of that parse, and my CA total out damaged his CA total (as you would think it should.) We were both using caustic poison and he did outdamage me on the poison, but he has higher intelligence as well, and a boost to procs via a templar buff I believe. The glaring difference just came down to that auto attack damage. The difference was just unreal and it's an easy to spot difference as to what pushes them over the top.That's the topic that everyone seems to be caring about right now. I think it's an issue that should be looked at, but not here on the assassin boards although that appears to be the main topic of dicussion. Can we get some constructive ideas as to what can be done to fix our AAs? I posted my opinion, noone seems to care. Not to go back to the swashbuckler thing here but they at least have an AA ability that gives the group a short term AE avoidance. For those keeping score at home, that leaves the Assassin as the only melee class without any type of AE avoidance. Of course noone wants the broken as hell amazing reflexes that makes you untouchable because whether the brigands will admit it or not, it was broken. Our "AE avoidance" seems to only have a use for PVP. I don't see how it could be useful for anything but pvp, and that's one of our biggest arguments with our AA lines is that they seemed to be largely pvp oriented. Some ideas please!

HellRaiserXX

03-15-2007, 04:11 PM

As far as AoE avoidance goes, Getaway works quite well. I use it all the time on PHH and some other encounters. I personally dont really see the need for AE avoidance. If the fight is one where we do need it my guild brings in extra classes who have it so all the grps have it which means I have it. Most fights really dont require it, if you know the timers on the AEs you can joust out and in on most of them and only lose 2-3seconds cast bow attacks as you go and you dont lose much DPS. No one really has an AE avoidance thats very usable individually, I dont think many bards and swashys use their AE avoidance when its not required for the whole group. At least ours dont, some probably do.I would like the abilities that are broken to get fixed and if someone could think of a way to make our AAs better without overpowering us in comparison to the other T1 classes Im all for it. The problem is you cant really add that much DPS before it would unbalance T1 and from what it sounds like people are saying I dont think it would be enough to satisfy the issue with swashys. I also really would prefer to not get utility because that is not what we do and would just make us into a crappy rogue who cant compete with them on any level. Like Graton said it would just strengthen the argument that we are T2 DPS in the future. Plainly put when it comes to possible improvements we are pretty much [Removed for Content]. The stuff that could be done wont satify the swashy issue and the stuff people want done isnt exactly realistic considering T1 class balance and in order to keep that balance would require some very drastic changes.

Kokus

03-15-2007, 04:52 PM

I'm really surprised anyone outside of a pvp environment would ever use Getaway. We've always done the group AE avoidance, not singles for the PHH. Besides, Getaway = no dps while you stand there doing nothing while with true ae avoidance you can stay in there pounding away until you really need to get out. Even the swashies group AE avoidance is good enough to hit it, and let you swing until you need to get out of there. I don't think it's worth speccing for even for that 1 encounter, when I don't think it's even worth it there.But that did give me a thought. Change getaway to something like this: Increases Concealment's duration by 7 seconds. During this time, you avoid AEs (when not direct) Well.. the only problem with that is the annoying auto stealth which would lower dps during that time period.. Maybe not so great of a change.. Just kinda brainstorming here....

HellRaiserXX

03-15-2007, 05:47 PM

Im talking about the Drain Life AE on PHH. Raid lead calls Drain Life in 10 I give it an 8 count pop Getaway AE hits a couple seconds later and then Im right back to DPSing. Its not entirely necessary because for the most part that AE is easily surviveable, but its one person my healers dont have to heal. Who says just because it lasts 30sec or whatever you just have to sit there. I find it most useful in avoiding stuns like when the adds pop on Tender of the Seedlings or something similar. I use it on Matron so I dont have to joust out on a few Rain of Thistles AEs especially getting down towards the final bit. Its not like the ability is actually required for any encounter, but you can use it with almost any AE if you have the timer and only need to be idle for a couple seconds. I figure if I am going to put 20 points in Physicality anyway, why not get it, its not like that point is going to make any difference putting it somewhere else, maybe an extra 6% or whatever it is on Cloaked Assault or a little more defense reduction on Crippling strike or whatever else; not anything major.Ya I dont think that would really work. Its practically the same thing as Getaway just would save you from having your stealth broke if an AE happened to hit while running through the combo. Extra duration really wouldnt be necessary since you can pretty much cast every single stealth ability in the time already alotted and with Repeated Stabbing it gets even easier. I also use getaway sometimes if my Concealment gets broken midrun to get me back into stealth fast since its instant cast, can sometimes get off 2 more stealth CAs before Concealment wears off depending on when it was interrupted. Of course I can just hit another CA to put me back into stealth, but I find its easier for me to use getaway, might not be for others.Im actually kinda wondering why someone in PvP would use it, I mean Im sure it has some application, but most of the time wouldnt they be casting right at you anyway which would cancel it? Im sure almost everyone has see stealth totems or capabilities so they would be able to target you anyway. Best use is probably against AE stuns and stifles. Which is mostly what Ive been using it for. I think about PvP from a PvE perspective and I know some things work differently there so maybe it works differently in that environment and thus is more useful.