Bruiser Nerfs from LU 32..

[MutantCrock1905]

<p> Alright, so far our auto attack was lowered and our ability "Drag" was nerfed from 7 second duration to a 5 second duration. What is going on? Why do you feel it is needed to constantly take bruisers abilities away from us? You give us 2% more mitagation for defensive, and take so much more away.. </p><p> This is how a bruiser tanks.. with DPS! </p><p> This is how a bruiser duels.. with DRAG! ( or saves raids )</p><p>So, you are constantly nerfing our abilities, once we get good at them. What, is there any reasons behind these actions? ..You didn't even post the nerf with Drag.. </p><p> Every 6 months the bruiser must totally relearn the way they play their toon. Seriously SoE, please reconsider you're actions.. I have played my bruiser for 2 years now, and I sincerely love the class. But, the constant changes you are making to them are very frustrating, and the only thing I see you accomplishing with them, is the elimination of the class altogether.. </p><p> No raiding guild really wants a bruiser. The only real way a bruiser gets in a top raid guild is because they can either 1. Parse extremely high ( well, we now parse 200 - 300 lower thanks to the auto attack nerf ) or 2. Have the ability Altruism. Well, and again, the dps is not good enough to attend but only a few raids just for the ability altruism.</p><p> I am seriously at my wits end here. I would just like an explanation as to why you are constantly messing with the class. I think I deserve that much.. </p>

[Zelkova]

Drag was always 5 seconds. I don't notice the DPS hit though because I changed my AAs all around when the update went live... so I can't fairly compare.

[LuciferBB]

notes do not say anything about a loss of dps.  but i do see less damage.  also.  i was always second place to scout classes.  now....  i am 3rd.  mages own over me.  and necros got pushed above them all again.  something not in the notes but lowered the dps?  and yeah i do think auto attack as well. and while you devs check can you also decrease no weapon delay to 2.0 or increase base attack damage to 58 or 57.2 or something like that

[Bobbette]

Yup Drag was always 5secs. I haven't see a significant change to my dps.  In fact, it keeps increasing as I tweak my character, and my guild tweaks the groups I'm in for my buffs. My guild seems pretty happy to have a bruiser on their raiding force.  I bring dps that's consistently in the top 5-6 on the parse, I do have Altruism and Drag so I bring some utility, plus FD for trap triggering.  There are encounters out there that are best tanked by brawlers. We're far from being useless.

[LuciferBB]

or you think they upped everyones DPS but the bruiser?  na they messed with it or pressed the wrong button or something. 

[Zelkova]

It really seems silly that they would nerf our damage after giving us.. the Knockouts line, deagro abilities and the fabled EOF set which is entirely offensive. All these things strongly indicate that they intend for us to be high DPS. Parses aren't really useful in my situation, is there any other solid evidence of a big difference between now and then?

[Gungo]

<p>You are basing the fact you lost dps on parses. Here is the real fact</p><p>Our dps did not change scout and caster dps went up.</p><p>How? the AA changes to kos allows sorcerers to take both freehand line and crit OR spell haste line. </p><p>We on the other hand always had the best AA setup w/o the need to get end abilites by going 4/4/8 int/wis/sta. You can't get more unless some crazy 2hander drops in eof. </p><p>Scouts also got more dps through the aa changes predators can now take an extra Poisen AA final ability along w crits etc.</p><p>EDIT: You can't expect to be better dps then predators, sorcerers, or rogues, summoners. </p>

[l00t]

<p>I have noticed my auto attacks are hitting for lower damage like the original poster also. </p>

[MutantCrock1905]

<cite>Zelkova wrote:</cite><blockquote>Drag was always 5 seconds. I don't notice the DPS hit though because I changed my AAs all around when the update went live... so I can't fairly compare. </blockquote><p> Drag was 7 seconds before LU32.. </p>

[Arathy]

My Drag is, and always has been 5 seconds.

[MutantCrock1905]

<p>I play a 70 bruiser on the test server, PvP server and also a live server, trust me,  I know. Drag used to be 7 second duration. It was nerfed because a bruiser could drag a mob from really far away to their group, someone else tags it, bruiser FDs, group has aggro, no other mobs come. It was also nerfed because people in PVP were getting owned by it.. IE: KO combo > Drag > Cycle CA's > Target Dead.. Anyway, the point is, it was nerfed; without any notification as to why, or for that matter, that it was.. Which is why I am complaining about it, because 5 seconds is just enough time to not be useful; much.</p>

[Supp]

<p>Bruisers suck.</p><p>Bruisers cant tank.</p><p>Bruisers have bad dps.</p><p>No one should roll a bruiser.</p><p>Bruisers have no place on a raid.</p><p>All existing bruisers should betray to monk.</p><p>Bruisers are forever broken and we'll never get any love.</p>

[MutantCrock1905]

Monks suck more, no thx.

[Madmoon]

Whatever "nerfs" were handed out, I cannot say I have seen any difference in play.  I don't have Drag, but then, I don't define myself by one Art.

[Zendi_Perma]

<cite>MutantCrock1905 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I play a 70 bruiser on the test server, PvP server and also a live server, trust me,  I know. Drag used to be 7 second duration. It was nerfed because a bruiser could drag a mob from really far away to their group, someone else tags it, bruiser FDs, group has aggro, no other mobs come. It was also nerfed because people in PVP were getting owned by it.. IE: KO combo > Drag > Cycle CA's > Target Dead.. Anyway, the point is, it was nerfed; without any notification as to why, or for that matter, that it was.. Which is why I am complaining about it, because 5 seconds is just enough time to not be useful; much.</p></blockquote>Heck, I do this with ranged attack and sonic fists all the time drag would actually be harder....

[MutantCrock1905]

You do what with ranged and sonic fist?

[Etchii]

<p>Whats the point of even having this thread.  I've seen bruisers go thorugh some serious nerfs before, i'll see it again i'm sure.  No dev ever replies to these threads, no one cares on sony's end...plain and simple.  They do what they want and no one is in any position to argue it.  They are the dictators of the EQ world, this is not a democracy...just be happy they havn't deleted the bruiser class all together...because If they wanted to...they would.  Probably wouldn't even tell us in an update note.</p><p>When it comes to DPS or Tanking...bruisers are sub par at both.  Hell, even my inquisitor can hold agro better...and he has 0 taunts. </p><p>Point is, be a bruiser because you love the class, not because you want to be top end this or top end that...otherwise you'll spend more time on these forums complaining than you will in game.</p><p> Atleast we are the best at feign death....for now.  Make the best of it.</p>

[Mongowth]

It's called freedom of speech and if the devs/gms didn't want these boards, by your logic again they simply wouldn't have them. They do read through these as on odd occasion (very, VERY rare) you see some of the ideas coming through and put into the game. The final word is certainly in their hands though, that much is true! I hate to break it to you also, but if you become a tinkerer they have a device that has a 99% chance to FD and Necro's have a 100% chance to FD (although granted on a 5 min recast). So, the point of the thread is letting people have their say... even if it is merely to let off steam. It's a community of people who play the class and who bash heads/fists together to come out with potential ideas... It does seem that Devs/GMs don't read these, and I'm almost convinced myself that a larger percentage aren't read but when it's a popular subject by bruisers agreeing etc then those get the attention more than 1 or 2 peoples rants in a post. Just my opinion <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Zelkova]

Edit: woops, I'm blind

[Trayla]

<p>I still love playing my bruiser and at lvl 57 she is still very soloable which I am happy with. </p><p>Luckily, I am not a "raider" type though if I ever chose to be it is a little annoying that I'd have to level up a class I don't like playing as much to be my main just to get in a raiding guild. But you know there will always be favorite raiding classes like there always have been throughout this game and previous ones. Let's face it - those classes aren't always the most fun to playe either. IE: healers (zzzzzzzz)</p><p> I will continue to play my bruiser and I guess start leveling my necro and illusionist - assuming they don't suck already - who knows heh. </p>

[FallenFeather]

<cite>Supple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Bruisers suck.</p><p>Bruisers cant tank.</p><p>Bruisers have bad dps.</p><p>No one should roll a bruiser.</p><p>Bruisers have no place on a raid.</p><p>All existing bruisers should betray to monk.</p><p>Bruisers are forever broken and we'll never get any love.</p></blockquote>Betrayed from Monk to Bruiser and I'm happy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <span style="font-size: xx-small">(Well atleast as long as I keep my spot above monks on parse lists lol)</span>

[Supp]

<cite>FallenFeather wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Supple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Bruisers suck.</p><p>Bruisers cant tank.</p><p>Bruisers have bad dps.</p><p>No one should roll a bruiser.</p><p>Bruisers have no place on a raid.</p><p>All existing bruisers should betray to monk.</p><p>Bruisers are forever broken and we'll never get any love.</p></blockquote>Betrayed from Monk to Bruiser and I'm happy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <span style="font-size: xx-small">(Well atleast as long as I keep my spot above monks on parse lists lol)</span> </blockquote><p>Fallen...</p><p><holds head in hands></p><p>Youre missing the point bro. You are unhappy. You need fixing. Ok? Allow the dissenters the opportunity to make bruisers <strike>even more awesome</strike> not suck so bad. </p>

[eyes007]

The only thing that pisses me off about my class is that punk-[Removed for Content] brigands get clobber when its an obvious bruiser trait.

[Selioth]

BTW monks do suck more!!! i miss being one so bad

[Salastine]

<cite>MutantCrock1905 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I play a 70 bruiser on the test server, PvP server and also a live server, trust me,  I know. Drag used to be 7 second duration.</p></blockquote> I've had drag since early December when I had enough AA's for it, and it was definitely always 5 seconds. I also have not noticed any reduction in my own dps, autoattack or otherwise. I will agree that many other classes benefitted more in the DPS department with the revised AA distribution, but I like what I did gain, even if it isn't DPS. /shrug, i'm still a happy bruiser.

[grish]

This thread is funny, right off the top you have a bruiser saying his dps isnt as good as a scout or mage. Bruisers are tanks with some dps. We can pretty mediocre at both, but in the right situation can do both quite well. Sure they arent t1 dps, and they dont tank like a plate tank, but given the nature of the beast I would say bruisers are pretty darn good. Just be happy with a well rounded class, if you spec and build right you can tank quite well, or if you prefer you can spec down the dps lines. If you think you suck at doing something, its prolly because you are doing it wrong.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<p>The <i>real</i> issues aren't that we suck to the point of unplayable.. it's that other classes suck less at both aspects of tanking and DPS... meaning our viability as a choice becomes nonexistant when it boils down to class (and not just friends playing together).</p><p>With the introduction of AA's, every Fighter has the opportunity to do more DPS than us. Every plate tank other than Paladins can do this AND tank better <i>at the same time</i>.</p><p>I would have no problem with being an inferior tank 100% of the time, if I could choose AA's that made me better DPS 100% of the time. But that's just not the case anymore.</p><p> Personally, I'd prefer to be a valid choice for raid tanking at some point. But I'd take higher DPS as a handout.</p><p>As it is.. I'm just doing the best I can, knowing in the back of my head.. applying the same player skill I have to a Guardian or Zerker with similar equipment, I could be doing even more.</p><p> At least I still feel that I solo better.</p>

[grish]

Ok, you say other classes suck less at tanking and dpsing, I do not agree with that one bit. Show me one tank who can solo as well as can or dps as well as we can. We may get out tanked, but we wont get out dps'd. We are a very good blend, and yes in a group situation a plate tank makes for a better tank, but that doesnt mean we wouldnt be capable in a pinch. As far as AA goes, you are telling me that if a guardian spec'd for dps he would tank better and out dps us? You are on drugs, or you really have no concept of how to play your class. If you get out dpsed by the tank, you seriously have some problems. While bruiser may not be a viable Maintank for raids, there are encounters where a bruiser can tank you just have to find them. If you want to be a maintank you should have rolled a plate then you could be complaining in their forums how good bruisers are. In general on our raids I parse anywhere from 1200-1500, hitting highs as high as 1600-1700 on short encounters where I can burn off my AOE's. I am far from decked in fabled, I have 2 decent weapons, almost entire excarnate set, and all ad3 or masters (majority ad3). And most raiding guilds do have a bruiser, but they dont need more than one. Its not an issue of not being wanted, its an issue of not wanting more than you need. I really do think we are a well rounded class, I have played a plate tank to 70 and it was no where as near as fun as my bruiser, not even in the same ballpark. And as far as other people who dont think highly of bruisers they just dont know what they can do. Also regarding AA we have AA that can also make us tank better and dps better, so not sure what that argument is all about.  You spend what 26 points or so and can get 5 skills with +25% damage, then spend another 24 points and either improve your taunts or improve some of your defensive skills.

[Etchii]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><p>The <i>real</i> issues aren't that we suck to the point of unplayable.. it's that other classes suck less at both aspects of tanking and DPS... meaning our viability as a choice becomes nonexistant when it boils down to class (and not just friends playing together).</p><p>With the introduction of AA's, every Fighter has the opportunity to do more DPS than us. Every plate tank other than Paladins can do this AND tank better <i>at the same time</i>.</p><p>I would have no problem with being an inferior tank 100% of the time, if I could choose AA's that made me better DPS 100% of the time. But that's just not the case anymore.</p><p> Personally, I'd prefer to be a valid choice for raid tanking at some point. But I'd take higher DPS as a handout.</p><p>As it is.. I'm just doing the best I can, knowing in the back of my head.. applying the same player skill I have to a Guardian or Zerker with similar equipment, I could be doing even more.</p><p> At least I still feel that I solo better.</p></blockquote><p> I was with a paladin the other night, fabled out of course.  She came along to do HoF for the MoA trial book.  She was constantly topping DPS while tanking.  At times on large pulls, she had 1500dps.  </p><p> Only one pull did I out DPS her.  Every other time i was in second place somewhere around 200-600dps behind. </p><p> Sure, I don't have any fabled gear...but i have a good ammount of masters, full legendary (minus earrings)......it was depressing.</p>

[Prrasha]

<cite>Etchii wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I was with a paladin the other night, fabled out of course.  She came along to do HoF for the MoA trial book.  She was constantly topping DPS while tanking.  At times on large pulls, she had 1500dps.  </p><p> Only one pull did I out DPS her.  Every other time i was in second place somewhere around 200-600dps behind. </p><p> Sure, I don't have any fabled gear...but i have a good ammount of masters, full legendary (minus earrings)......it was depressing.</p></blockquote>I have both a bruiser and a paladin character.  If you're beating a paladin in DPS on AE fights, the paladin is a fool (doesn't know how to  play their class, and didn't take the obvious  INT/wrath AA lines).  Paladins live for AE fights. If you're losing to the paladin on single target fights, the paladin is amazing.  Or her fabled gear is the really good stuff.  Or the spread of buffs from other classes favored the paladin highly.  It's possible to lose this DPS fight as a bruiser, but it shouldn't happen without some outside help to the pally.

[Etchii]

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Etchii wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I was with a paladin the other night, fabled out of course.  She came along to do HoF for the MoA trial book.  She was constantly topping DPS while tanking.  At times on large pulls, she had 1500dps.  </p><p> Only one pull did I out DPS her.  Every other time i was in second place somewhere around 200-600dps behind. </p><p> Sure, I don't have any fabled gear...but i have a good ammount of masters, full legendary (minus earrings)......it was depressing.</p></blockquote>I have both a bruiser and a paladin character.  If you're beating a paladin in DPS on AE fights, the paladin is a fool (doesn't know how to  play their class, and didn't take the obvious  INT/wrath AA lines).  Paladins live for AE fights. If you're losing to the paladin on single target fights, the paladin is amazing.  Or her fabled gear is the really good stuff.  Or the spread of buffs from other classes favored the paladin highly.  It's possible to lose this DPS fight as a bruiser, but it shouldn't happen without some outside help to the pally. </blockquote><p> HoF is really heavy on the group encounters.  Perhaps this is why.  The one that I won on was a single target encounter.  We didn't parse every fight... about 60% of them (more so towards the beginning... )</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<cite>grish wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, you say other classes suck less at tanking and dpsing, I do not agree with that one bit. Show me one tank who can solo as well as can or dps as well as we can. We may get out tanked, but we wont get out dps'd. We are a very good blend, and yes in a group situation a plate tank makes for a better tank, but that doesnt mean we wouldnt be capable in a pinch. As far as AA goes, you are telling me that if a guardian spec'd for dps he would tank better and out dps us? You are on drugs, or you really have no concept of how to play your class. If you get out dpsed by the tank, you seriously have some problems. While bruiser may not be a viable Maintank for raids, there are encounters where a bruiser can tank you just have to find them. If you want to be a maintank you should have rolled a plate then you could be complaining in their forums how good bruisers are. In general on our raids I parse anywhere from 1200-1500, hitting highs as high as 1600-1700 on short encounters where I can burn off my AOE's. I am far from decked in fabled, I have 2 decent weapons, almost entire excarnate set, and all ad3 or masters (majority ad3). And most raiding guilds do have a bruiser, but they dont need more than one. Its not an issue of not being wanted, its an issue of not wanting more than you need. I really do think we are a well rounded class, I have played a plate tank to 70 and it was no where as near as fun as my bruiser, not even in the same ballpark. And as far as other people who dont think highly of bruisers they just dont know what they can do. Also regarding AA we have AA that can also make us tank better and dps better, so not sure what that argument is all about.  You spend what 26 points or so and can get 5 skills with +25% damage, then spend another 24 points and either improve your taunts or improve some of your defensive skills. </blockquote><p> Perhaps my "at the same time" was more misleading than I intended. While I have seen MT's DPS in the 1800's or even higher, it's not every person that can do that. That's in the MT position to note... I've seen Guardians and Zerkers in the DPS group doing 2500+ DPS.</p><p>What I mean though, is that they do not need to respec away from a DPS build to be able to tank better than us. They can be in full DPS mode and DPS as well or better depending on AE encounters, and can switch to a tank position and tank better than us.. without having to respec at all.</p><p>Equipment, especially things like Tower Shields and high DR onehanded weapons, have such a large impact on their defenses and offense ability, they can basically switch some equipment around and become just as good DPS, or better tanks.</p><p>Before KoS, we had a drastic advantage in DPS. Our CAs gave us an edge over other tanks. KoS gave all plate tanks the ability to superboost their DPS, without cost to tanking at all. Tanking AAs, while nice, do not compare whatsoever to how well the boosts to DPS. Point in fact: blanket damage increasing bonuses are on the third ability of the lines, whereas defesnive ones are 4th. So you can get 3 DPS bonuses but only ever get 2 Defensive. Not to mention crits and double attack and procs and haste/dps blow +skill out of the water in direct comparison of "how well it increases that field".</p><p>Also, every single fighter type got an "autoattack affects multiple targets" except Brawlers. Autoattack is anywhere from 33-50% of a fighter's damage (Zerkers are 50%+ due to their abilities). Any ability that increases autoattack is superior to those that don't at all... and AE situations are where we get our [Removed for Content] handed to us.</p><p>~75% Double Attack and ~20% multi target autoattack using an 80 DR onehanded weapon beats the living snot out of our 54 DR unarmed with 96% double attack and maybe a proc... with no stats or weapon procs or offhand shield or adornments, etc.</p><p>As for our AA's, no one got any real decent increase in EoF for defensiveness. Ours is basically "use abilities quicker"... which helps not a smidge when you are coming up to an Epic fight. 10 seconds off a 2 minute recast? 15 seconds off a 3 minute recast? 50 seconds tacked on to a 3 minute ability? If we last 3 minutes in a fight, we aren't going to lose because we didn't have that extra 50 seconds... most fights aren't even that long anyways (yes, even boss fights, except for a few extreme ones).</p><p>The end defensive ability is a total joke too. It works off ripostes... which runs off parries. Our parry is not like our deflection... it's definately contested. Which means both level AND mob power both reduce it's effectiveness. Our parrying ability drops drastically when faced with a yellow Epic. And ripostes only happen off of 20% of parries.. 1 in 5 parries that will rarely happen as is. And the final AA only gives a <i>chance</i> of happening off a riposte? We are getting into fractions of a % worth of happening here.</p><p>The only thing Tank-wise that I've found decent is the recast speed of our group AE. That one is noticeably better with the AA's invested. I notice a <i>difference</i> from the AA spent. The single target, not as much.. I have enough CAs to spam between single target taunts that I don't need it recast that much quicker. </p><p>Now I've never said you can't tank anything. I've personally tanked every heroic instance and zone in this game without any real problems. Even EoF instances now that I have EoF gear.</p><p>It's Epics where we fall short. Sure, with EoF gear I can start to hold my own against easy raids like Labs, etc. But that's due mostly to a different "quality" of gear... EoF makes us supermen compared to the previous expansions. And unless it's a single target fight, holding aggro is a hard thing to do. Jumping targets like I do in heroic fights just isn't as feasible in Epic encounters. Recast timers on two taunts aren't going to make us hold group Epics all of a sudden.</p><p>The 4 other tanks out there can equip themselves to do better in tanking, even with DPS spec. And with their DPS spec and weapon options, they can DPS as well as us, and better in AE situations.</p><p>The ONLY reason I've heard of a brawler being wanted specifically as a brawler was because of FD and the Agi end line ability.</p>

[Bobbette]

"Also, every single fighter type got an "autoattack affects multiple targets" except Brawlers. Autoattack is anywhere from 33-50% of a fighter's damage (Zerkers are 50%+ due to their abilities). Any ability that increases autoattack is superior to those that don't at all... and AE situations are where we get our [Removed for Content] handed to us." Check the brawler AA tree again.  In the wisdom line, 3rd one down, Crane Twirl is "on successful melee attack" there's a chance to proc aoe.

[Kainsei]

Velda@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>"Also, every single fighter type got an "autoattack affects multiple targets" except Brawlers. Autoattack is anywhere from 33-50% of a fighter's damage (Zerkers are 50%+ due to their abilities). Any ability that increases autoattack is superior to those that don't at all... and AE situations are where we get our [Removed for Content] handed to us." Check the brawler AA tree again.  In the wisdom line, 3rd one down, Crane Twirl is "on successful melee attack" there's a chance to proc aoe. </blockquote> He's talking about pure auto-attack, crane twirl works like a CA, thus has no effect on autoattack at all. Dont get me wrong, crane twirl is nice but it could be a little better (maybe 10 or 12% proc chance).

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<p>Yeah, I said "autoattack affects multiple targets" not "procs AE off autoattack". Two very different worlds.</p><p>When you make autoattack affect more targets, it multiplies all benefits from +DPS, +Haste, and Double Attack.</p><p>For example.. if you took 100% DPS and added 100% Haste, you get 4x the damage, not just 2x. The hit is now doing double the damage twice as fast. This is how affecting autoattack helps greatly as opposed to a proc that does maybe 3% of my total damage zonewide.</p><p>A warrior being buffed with say 100% DPS (self and bonuses, and group buffs), 100% Haste (say, illusionist and self buffs), using his 76% Double Attack, and toss in the 24% chance to hit up to 4 targets...</p><p>They end up with nearly 14x the damage against 4 targets (13.8x), or ~12x against three targets and ~10.5x against two targets. Finally, they still get 7x the damage against 1 target.</p><p>Brawlers with the same group buffs get their one, 96% chance at double attack on unarmed only. Which equates to 7.8x the damage against a single target, with no increase to multiple targets. And that's assuming a Bruiser can get up to 100% DPS and Haste (usually it's around 50-60%, maybe 80% DPS, and some haste buffs). Do we even have a +Haste AA? Seriously...</p><p> And that's only the first half of it. Let's toss in weapons!</p><p>A warrior with an 80 DR weapon, we are looking at an effective DR (for comparison) of  1104 vs 4 targets, 960 vs 3, 840 vs 2, and even 560 against a single target (assuming the 24% ae proc doesn't proc again on the target.. if it does then it's ~700).</p><p>A brawler conversely gets around 420 DR for comparison. With no bonus with multiple targets, and no chance to upgrade the weapon or even add procs or adornments into the equation. That's lower than even the warrior's bonuses without even taking into account the multi target AA at all.</p><p>So yeah.. on the regular autoattack, not including any self buffs from the class (Zerkers have even more multi-attack with autoattack buffs), warriors have the capability of totally outstripping Brawlers in autoattack damage. Which, even on a conservative note, takes up the single largest portion of any melee class's damage output.</p><p> Between stacking multipliers on the autoattack buffs, and the ability to get high DR weapons that still can USE these multipliers... their AA's have made them complete contenders for DPS between fighters. This negates any bonuses we had in CA damage compared to them. Hell, I've seen zerkers pull down as high zonewide DPS as scouts and casters when fully DPS spec'd and group buffed. And while Crusaders don't have all the same multipliers, they do have a lot of AA's that bring their damage capabilities up as well. 60%+ crits on spells and AE autoattack bonuses too.. haste and dps AAs.. yes, I've seen Paladins with barely any outside help pull down scout level DPS in AE situations.</p><p>And 80 DR weapons are definately feasible.. they've been out since raiding in KoS, let alone the ones that might be around in EoF (I don't keep tabs on non-brawler weapons).</p><p> AA's have totally destroyed any advantage we had in DPS. And since our tanking (survivability and aggro control) was lesser even before taking AA's into consideration, and our AA's for increasing them aren't any stronger than theirs, we are looking at both less capable in tanking, as well as dpsing. I know I can be capable of a lot as a Bruiser in this game, soloing is awesome with a wicked in combat self heal and nothing beats quick recastable FD for travelling zones. But anyone that tinkers can get some form of FD, warriors even get an outside combat 25% self heal with their first AA (while we have a "stacks with nothing" 5% run speed)... I dunno.. our advantages are disappearing even in the small section of the game that we had it.</p><p>Being able to get to named mobs and solo them in SoS isn't exactly a good enough reason to have every other tank equal or even beat you in all other aspects of the game. Yeesh.</p>