Our unique abilities of Coercion sowly becoming worthless? Your thoughts.

[Cattastrophy]

I see 3 things that greatly separate a coercer from other classes, and a coercer from the enchanter classes. 1) Memory wipe 2) Amazing stun abilities 3) CHARMING I've noticed recently that 2 of these 3 abilities are now being limited. Not to say that I'm complaining about this, however, largely these reasons are why a lot of us picked this class. (That and not wanting to be a goodie goodie.) So my question is why is charm and stun (and even in some cases MemWipe) no longer working on some mobs? Did the other classes take a big nerf to their special traits that I'm not aware of? What I've noticed for charm; Resist checks are either higher now, or much more frequent. With 457 Subj (2 points OVER cap) I went from something almost never breaking, to breaking <i>atleast</i> once every 5min. Other thing I noticed, which was already posted about, is them limiting the mobs that are charmable. This varies from zone to zone and is more present in some than others, but why it was even put in is beyond me. I thought one of the points of a class that could charm was risk VS. reward and being able to do things no one else could with a much higher risk. Stun changes; Nothing to bad here. A lot of things in Unrest aren't stunnable, but I don't think enough to make a difference. It's annoying yes, but if this is a trend that will slowly be growing with the upcoming expansions I can see many many Chanters becoming rather annoyed. Memory wipe; I might have just been having a bad week or something, but was this skill changed?  Been playing with it on normal mobs to see  if it's still working and it seems like some mobs are now immune to the memwipe portion of the spell. This also a new trend? Just curious about other Coercer's thoughts on these issues. These are the abilities that make us unique as a class and stand above Illus. If they keep playing with them, I have seriously thought about going goodie goodie just for the added DPS and CC abilities. Just my 2cp.

[Cygnus Hyoga]

<p>I haven't noticed imunity to mem-wipe. Of course, everybody that autoattacks, still has a dot on the mob or has a reactive heal will loose the effet of the spell. I use it on a mezzed mob before the tank breaks the mez to avoid the creature running on the healer. Second use is when the raid starts to wipe, i shout on TS to stop attacking, wait a few seconds and cast it. in 90% cases, there is someone that don't die and can rez the raid. Myself, i don't complain about that spell</p><p>About the charming thing. Maybe i do something wrong.... but everytime i have charmed a mob, even yellow con ^^^ caster ones, their dps is around 200-300. In most case, using the 3 concentration slots to DPS buff the members of the group add more than the pet will do. Adding the charm break danger, i really don't see why i would keep charming mobs when i'm in a group or raid. Beeing able to charm mobs was the biggest part of what made me choose coercer.</p><p>I had a little idea <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It would be so cool to have something like an "offensive stence". When most of our CC spell don't work, we could use that spell to disable our CC capacity, limit our mana-regen or buffs and add damage to ours other spells. this way, we would be usefull as DPS even in  charm-stun-stifle-daze immune zones. hihi it's good to dream <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>PS1 : sorry for my english</p><p>PS2 : Goodie goodie = illu ? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> kind of expresions i don't get <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Iggyopalus]

<p>adept3 charm = 200-500 dps</p><p>master charm on the right pet..... umm.... MORE</p>

[DanniOlsen]

<p>I think it really depending on either PVP, Raid or Grouping.</p><p>Primary I raid with my Coercer and I have had doubts for a long time now since what we are designed to do doesn't really work 100% on raids. </p><ol><li>I never Charm on raids - there are very few mobs to charm and it uses 3 conc slots.</li><li>Amazing stun abilities.., nah, not on raids. Sure I use AE daze and Stun and sometimes I have a feeling that it actually gave a few sec for the healers to land cures or heals and saves the raid. But I cannot decide/control this due to EPIC reuse restrictions</li><li>Mem-wipe - Yes this really helps and are needed in some difficult T7 zones..</li></ol><p>Amnesia - Should not really be the only thing making it worth raiding a Coercer. I mean, any of the Bards could provide the group AE specials we have - they are even more flexible when it comes to which group there are in and can quickly adept to the mobs we fight when thinking resists/hate and aggro control....</p><p>Grouping is a different story, but as said above I am a raiding Coercer and I really don't think we are design to Raid...</p>

[Cygnus Hyoga]

<cite>Iggyopalus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>adept3 charm = 200-500 dps</p><p>master charm on the right pet..... umm.... MORE</p></blockquote><p>Hummm... oki <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> having the master is so more powerfull. </p><p>Candle corpse charmed with adept3 T7 = 2500 nukes</p><p>Candle corpse charmed with master 1 T6 = 5600 nuke.</p><p>I so wish i had the master T7 </p>

[Cattastrophy]

<cite>Iggyopalus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>adept3 charm = 200-500 dps</p><p>master charm on the right pet..... umm.... MORE</p></blockquote><p> 200~500 DPS is garbage. I could pull 600 ~ 1000 DPS on my Coercer with NO DPS AA at all. This just depends on player ability. My point was; there are very few small cases where our 2 better abilities are even worth using. I was refering more to stunning NOT on raids (where still on raids it is semi usefull) and being able to charm on raids... and you already said it best, we don't because it's currently concidered  "waste of conc". These are my points boys... thanks so far for input.</p><p> And as for the Corpse Flames.... if yall keep refering to them they are next to get hit with the nerf-bat. So hush =p</p>

[TwistedFaith]

Can someone explain the benefit of mem wipe, this is lost on me. I use it to split Prime from Vyemn but what group instances (non raid) do you need this in. I dont get it, you cast it, it memwipes and you die how is that a benefit except to reset a mob. Am I missing something here?

[Cattastrophy]

Probably the better use for it (besides helping [Removed for Content] that don't know how to control DPS) is saving a raid. Tanks go down and a wipe is expected, memwipe the mob. Once you are dead anyone who didn't do damage (or heals) after Memwipe was called survives. Save some gear and time... that's about it.

[Ozgood]

<p>I am a 46 Coercer here and have experienced many of the same things.  I put the 5 AA's in the charm tree, I made sure my subj was at cap or higher.  But honestly, I am more of a nuisance with a pet than a benefit.  We will be running through mobs invised and wham, it breaks, the group is visible and chaos ensues.  I guess I look it as though we are supposed to be masters of controlling the mind and I can even control a one up blue salamander....</p><p>I think anyone even con or less, should never break.  If you want the big guns, then hey, you have to dance a little bit.</p><p>Being on a PvP server, I like the reactives of the coercer.  If I was on a PVE server, I would /delete.  As the OP states, we are really watered down.  Spell lash or equiv, Despotic Mind etc, don't seem to do much in PVE, the stuns are really short, the mez is ok, if it lands and we have to chose between buffing tanks or getting our primary source of DPS, our pets.</p><p> Also I have noticed a HUGE disparity between caster pets and melee ones.  A melee pet at my level hits mobs for 120-160 per swing, but hits most players for 45-65.  The caster pets do 800-1200 per nuke to a mob and do around 700-900 per nuke to PCs.  Why in the world would I want a tank mob???  Again, a unique ability, but is really getting watered down and one sided.</p><p>Lastly, I do not understand the term DPS and Coercer in the same sentence.  I have seen that reference numerous times and just now am realizing that it isn't a sick joke.  I do no DPS with my coercer.  My reactives, once triggered, do 450-550 5 times, my dots do maybe 120 per tick and most fights, and my "nuke" LOL does like 240!  Sadly, without reactives I don't know if I could kill a just grey within a minute or so.  Heck, maybe I would even lose.</p><p>So please, explain this to me.  /beg</p>

[Cattastrophy]

<cite>Tiabella wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am a 46 Coercer here and have experienced many of the same things.  I put the 5 AA's in the charm tree, I made sure my subj was at cap or higher.  But honestly, I am more of a nuisance with a pet than a benefit.  We will be running through mobs invised and wham, it breaks, the group is visible and chaos ensues.  I guess I look it as though we are supposed to be masters of controlling the mind and I can even control a one up blue salamander....</p><p> ME - Yup very annoying. Even with 457 Subj I was "all of a sudden" having a problem with breaks after the last Live Update.</p><p>I think anyone even con or less, should never break.  If you want the big guns, then hey, you have to dance a little bit.</p><p>ME - /agree</p><p>Being on a PvP server, I like the reactives of the coercer.  If I was on a PVE server, I would /delete.  As the OP states, we are really watered down.  Spell lash or equiv, Despotic Mind etc, don't seem to do much in PVE, the stuns are really short, the mez is ok, if it lands and we have to chose between buffing tanks or getting our primary source of DPS, our pets.</p><p>ME - /agree Those spell casting reactives I only use during duels. They are worthless against normal mobs.</p><p> Also I have noticed a HUGE disparity between caster pets and melee ones.  A melee pet at my level hits mobs for 120-160 per swing, but hits most players for 45-65.  The caster pets do 800-1200 per nuke to a mob and do around 700-900 per nuke to PCs.  Why in the world would I want a tank mob???  Again, a unique ability, but is really getting watered down and one sided.</p><p>ME - Yup.</p><p>Lastly, I do not understand the term DPS and Coercer in the same sentence.  I have seen that reference numerous times and just now am realizing that it isn't a sick joke.  I do no DPS with my coercer.  My reactives, once triggered, do 450-550 5 times, my dots do maybe 120 per tick and most fights, and my "nuke" LOL does like 240!  Sadly, without reactives I don't know if I could kill a just grey within a minute or so.  Heck, maybe I would even lose.</p><p>So please, explain this to me.  /beg</p><p>ME - Sure thing.</p></blockquote><p>DPS and Coercer being in the same sentance is rare-er then other classes but you have to be speced for it on raids or it just doesn't happen unless the tank is getting his [I cannot control my vocabulary] handed to him via melee hits. (Then you'd be surprised how much DPS just Auspex with 5 counters can pump out.) I used to be speced for charming and maxing Subj. Recently, do to charm changes and resist check changes, I have re-speced to Agi / Int lines for DPS. I was under the impression that these abilities would increase my DPS to that of an Illusionist.</p><p>"Under the impression" being the key factor here. Now, if Auspex goes off a lot we can match and sometimes beet the Illusionist 1,300 ~ 1,800 constant DPS. (Our Illu is ALWAYS atleast in that realm of DPS, on groups and if crits go right he can break 2,000 quite often.) But here's the problem.</p><p>IF I used Savant (damage spells are 30% more damaging if under 30% power) this would get me to about 1,300. If it wasn't used I'd score 500 ~ 1,000 depending on how often the tank was getting hit. But it didn't seem to effect Auspex. Auspex is over 40% of our DPS on EVERY fight in PvE. The other large %ages were from Stroke and our 2 quick DoTs. (unless it was a group of mobs then it more leaned towards Sonic Boom and Ego Torrent.) So with Savant we are losing out on a HUGE portion of our DPS. Thus I got rid of Savant and put more int on. The actual effect it has on my overall DPS was nil, maybe 25 ~ 100 points here and there. (I have 721int self buffed, which was used during most of this testing.)</p><p>With Agi and Int AA for speed and crits I can pull an average of 700 DPS over the course of a raid. (again depends on the raid, mob cons to the tank and IF the tank gets hit a lot. And just for reference our Illusionist scores around  1,400 raid wide, with the same AA setup.) This is a HUGE difference in DPS, but basically sums up Coercer DPS in a nutshell. Some Coercers can get higher, this is normally do to proc gear. All of the testing I did was with NO DAMAGE BASED PROCS at all.</p><p>Thus back to my original problem. If our DPS can't match our counterpart, the Illusionists, then what can we do that they can't or better than they to make up for the lack of DPS? Oh yeah, CHARM & Possesion, but those skills are vertually useless on raids now... hhhmm ok, lets flip that around then, so you'd think we'd be more usefull in instances since we are lacking on raids, right? Right?! Used to be... not so much anymore. It's becoming more and more dangerous for us to Charm and the mobs we are even able to charm are becoming more and more limited. So how are the Enchanter classes balanced now? To me, at this current juncture, Illusionists out class us by far. The only thing I can see that we have over them is our one mezz that can be cast through stun / stiffle / mezz and our open AE stun, that's about it.</p><p>So yeah... I think that's enough for today. =p Tell me what ya think.</p><p> ***EDIT*** Oh, if anyone was curious, the Illusionist I am refering to never uses his pet on raids either. So all this data was excluding charmed pets and the Illu mirror pet.</p>

[Eidolen]

<div align="left">Well I have many thoughts on the subject and even wrote the longest post I think I've ever seen concerning the current state, the future, and the differences between us and our counterpart. Since I decide to make an Illusionist back in January (LvL 65 atm) after all these nerfs to Coercers, I feel I have an unbiased view concerning both classes. I just haven't decided if I wrote it to post, or just for my own therapy. =P <div align="left">       <div align="left">In any case, we are but a shadow of what we could be and have been in the past. I am having a blast playing my Illusionist, though it is still an alt and does not have any raid experience as of yet. I can tell you this much for sure though. I feel my Illusionist would be much more beneficial in almost any setting overall than my Coercer. There's certainly no doubt it is far supeior in crowd control and DPS. <div align="left">   <div align="left">If I get the nerve to finish and post my novel, it shows an almost complete spell compaison betwen the classes as well as resist averages taken over many days for all of our crowd control spells. If you can imagine the frustration that drove me to spend days sifting through parses and to starting an Illusonist in the fist place, then you can understand how I feel about the current state of our class.    </div>Cheers,  </div>Eidolen   </div>   </div></div>

[zerothbase]

Playing a coercer takes a specific personality. If you have a "wizard" personality, then you really need to be playing a wizard (or other tier 1 dps class). I am spec'ed out in STA/WIS for maximum MT group/primary mezer raiding coercer. If I go all out and burn all my power in a fight, sometimes I'll hit 400 dps on a mob. Am I ok with this? yeah. Because my job is more subtle that a wizards. Aggro management, power regen/heals, and heal crits/Coercive Healing is pretty much my job. Anything on top of that is gravy. The only unique (and useful on a raid) thing we get over an illusionist is our huge aggro management. +49% ED on the MT, and -28% HL on the 4 biggest dps'ers (+1 conc slot for Impetus on MT). Then my job is basically to keep the power of the MT group above empty. But who wants an illusionist? The scout groups want a dirge, and the Sorceror/Summoner groups want a troubadour. The OT group wants a dirge or coercer. Who wants an illusionist as basically a second-rate wizard? None that I've seen. Oh sure, they'll fit an illusionist in wherever there is room for power regen, but <shrug>, why not a wizard or a bard/coercer in that slot? As a coercer, we swing the tide of battle in the group's/raid's favor, as opposed to the blow-by-blow that a dps'er does. An illusionist doing damage? <shrug> why? As a coercer, my job is to make everyone else look good, not take glory myself. I also have a 70 conjuror (as well as various other 70th/60+ alts) and almost always parse in the #1 or #2 slots on him. So I understand that side of it too. Both sides are fun, but you definitely need to know your role in a group/raid. --Cogitare 70 Coercer Guk

[Cattastrophy]

<cite>zerothbase wrote:</cite><blockquote> Playing a coercer takes a specific personality. If you have a "wizard" personality, then you really need to be playing a wizard (or other tier 1 dps class). I am spec'ed out in STA/WIS for maximum MT group/primary mezer raiding coercer. If I go all out and burn all my power in a fight, sometimes I'll hit 400 dps on a mob. Am I ok with this? yeah. Because my job is more subtle that a wizards. Aggro management, power regen/heals, and heal crits/Coercive Healing is pretty much my job. Anything on top of that is gravy. The only unique (and useful on a raid) thing we get over an illusionist is our huge aggro management. +49% ED on the MT, and -28% HL on the 4 biggest dps'ers (+1 conc slot for Impetus on MT). Then my job is basically to keep the power of the MT group above empty. But who wants an illusionist? The scout groups want a dirge, and the Sorceror/Summoner groups want a troubadour. The OT group wants a dirge or coercer. Who wants an illusionist as basically a second-rate wizard? None that I've seen. Oh sure, they'll fit an illusionist in wherever there is room for power regen, but <shrug>, why not a wizard or a bard/coercer in that slot? As a coercer, we swing the tide of battle in the group's/raid's favor, as opposed to the blow-by-blow that a dps'er does. An illusionist doing damage? <shrug> why? As a coercer, my job is to make everyone else look good, not take glory myself. I also have a 70 conjuror (as well as various other 70th/60+ alts) and almost always parse in the #1 or #2 slots on him. So I understand that side of it too. Both sides are fun, but you definitely need to know your role in a group/raid. --Cogitare 70 Coercer Guk </blockquote><p> I agree with you in so many differnt ways. I love my class, and I know I'm really out more to make other people look good than making myself look good. I just think one thing that's capping-my-[Removed for Content], if you will, is the missing 1 master of ED. The A3 is only 43% which is comparable to a Dirge's 42% +agression. Reguardless what Coercer's think, unless you have hate issues Dirges are far superior in MT groups. I play(ed) a 70 Dirge, mostly mastered, and 42% hate gain + the agression (M2), 15% stone skin, 7.5% crits on EVERYTHING and over 10% avoidence from my buffs plus others totally KILLS anything a Coercer can give to an MT group. (minus our mana regen being much more, but that's about it) So in this sence, is the only thing I disagree with you on. Yes Dirge's can make the Scout DPS group look awsome as well, but they are far better then we for MT groups in every way posible.</p><p>But that's another topic for another day. My rebut here is, if your arguement is "we are more MT group oriented and shouldn't think of DPS" why did they take away our more powerful Hate buff? (removed in early LUs, was the upgrade to ED @ level 68 or 66... I forget which) And our Hate buff being one of the hardest spells in game to come by, being level 52 and one of the rarer master drops. (Yes I am whiney about this particular spell, it's the only master I do not have and have a LOT of plat waiting to buy the stupid thing if I ever see it.) Thus why not give us more AA that is MT oriented? And not waste 1/2 of our EoF AA that are DPS related. Doesnt' make sence in my head... then again, Sony normally doesn't. Oh, and to back up the Illus out there, they add a lot to Caster DPS and some to melee as well. So they aren't "worthless" except for DPS.</p><p>By the way; WTB ED Master 1!!! PST! </p>

[mcavellero]

<p>I could have not said it any better.  </p><p> The grouping situation:  Most of our utility is becoming futile in a sense that there are items that can do what we can do(Mezzing...Mana Regen).  Some situations call for mezzing however, to be quite honest, mezzing annoys people whoa re trying to burn through zones via AOEs(including me when I am playing alts).  Stuns are about the only thing left we have left along with our low dps.</p><p>*Perhaps a dps stance would be a solution(which would disable mezzes and stuns).</p><p> Raids:  This is where the stuff really hits the fan.  As others have said a dirge is far superior than us(good for them too) so they are prefered over a coercer in the MT grp.  We cannot dps high and our dps buffs(we get one that helps out witha uto attack) really does not do much...  Therefore we have become more of a liability/dead weight than an asset.  Furthermore, our stuns and mezzes do not work in raids.  There are alternate ways to get around mem wipes in zones that require them such as pulling then fding(monk).</p><p>*Perhaps adding powerful/high hp non-epic mobs would make us more useful?</p><p> I just want to stess/emphasive, it is not about being the center of the attention or being the best class...it's about contributing a fair share to the raid/grp.  DPS does dps, tanks tank, healers heal, illus/trouby help grps out with dps/buffs...what do we contribute?  The problem is that most of our signature abilities are done by other classes...and done better by them or they have some advantage(IE Stoneskin) that makes them better suited.  And all of our stuns/mezzes are reduced to less than 10% of their abilities on raids...  I honestly don't think the devs intended our class to turn out this way and I am sure, one day, we will fit in somewhere.</p>

[Ozgood]

<p>I might get flamed for this, but couldn't they just delete the Coercer class if they just restored the Troub to it's former glory?  Same skill set, survives better and brings healing and a few other things to the table.</p><p>Which woud leave the Coercers with AOE mez and reactives, both of which help define the class, but don't make a class IMHO.</p><p>It is like we got leftovers. </p><p>Again to the poster that says we should focus on group over self, I agree partially.  I didn't become a Coercer to do crazy DPS or be the center of attention, but besides a spell that requires us (a severe squishy) or someone else to get hit to do any DPS is pathetic and even then the DPS is not decent unless all triggers go off.</p><p>I would like to see a even con or under perma pet OR a dumbfire pet solution, or the ability to spam pets (theurg in daoc).  More stuns and insane protection versus any magic, perhaps a ward or group ward.  Master debuffers or soemthing! Up our DOTs for more DPS perhaps make us more AOE based, but with actual damage.</p><p> Just my 1 cent...I will reserve the other for later <img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Cattastrophy]

<p>Dude, to be 100% honest, I've done the enchanter / Bard / Shamman / Monk thing in EQ1 and expected one of the classes to atleast be CLOSE to what they were in EQ1. The closest thing was the Monk (which I picked Bru for the offencive abilities), but on the flip side Bards and Shammies were nothing near how they were in EQ1. (Bards probably most so.) </p><p> If bards were more similar to bards in EQ1 I SO would have stuck with my Dirge. (I <3 EQ1 Bards) But you are right in the sence where if they restore Coercers to thier "former glory" we'd be one of the highest DPS classes and the best solo class, as well as Troubs being almost as useful in the same sence... [Removed for Content] that nerf bat... [Removed for Content] it to hell!</p><p> I miss storm-kiting. (Yes storm, not swarm... kiting = 1 mob, quad-kiting = 4 mobs, swarm kiting = lots of mobs, storm-kiting = ZONE, and bards were the only class capable of such in EQ1, they got nerfed just a wee bit I think. ~_^)</p>

[Pancho]

<p>Howdy amigos.</p><p>I dont usually post much, but I had to chime in here.  Yes, I am dissapointed that the number of mobs we can charm keeps getting reduced.  Last week we were raiding Lycaem and the heroic adds that I use to charm are no longer charmable.  I wish they would have a few charmable mobs within most raid zones, and the ultimate would be....I wish they would let us take our charmed pets across zone boundries.  I also agree, Coercers diserve something unique  about their abilities. maybe some mobs can only be charmed by a coercer? =o)  </p><p>Thanks,</p><p> Pancho  (Trauma Guk)</p>

[Chog]

People are complaining about nerfs because one game has a class that is more powerful then another game? I think the complaining about nerfs has reached an all time high when you need to say a class is nerfed because class "X" from game "Y" is more powerful then class "A" from game "E."

[Cattastrophy]

<cite>Chogar wrote:</cite><blockquote>People are complaining about nerfs because one game has a class that is more powerful then another game? I think the complaining about nerfs has reached an all time high when you need to say a class is nerfed because class "X" from game "Y" is more powerful then class "A" from game "E." </blockquote>Nope... not at all. We were just remembering the old days is all. Oh, and how much the classes have changed in a game that's supposed to be modeled after another game, but 500 years later.