Any chance of tradeskill mergers coming soon?

[Maroger]

<p>I got really excited at the prospect of merging weaponsmiths with Blacksamith and woordworkers with Carpenters. Any chance of this happening soon? It would help resolve the issue of too few recipes for those classes.</p><p>I really want to see something done about the lack of new recipes for each level for certain tradeskill classes. If you don't merge then could we get something like more XP for our pristines for those classes. Right now they are very tedious to level.</p>

[EQPrime]

I hope not.  While things aren't exactly balanced there's no reason to merge tradeskills, especially with the addition of all of the new armor types.  (I assume by Blacksamith you mean Armorer.)

[Obadiah]

I hope not. I like my weaponsmith just the way he is, and I think the lengthy thread on the topic headed in a "No merging" direction. I see no problem having some classes easier to level than others because of more pristine bonuses. I don't think everything should be the same, because that's dull. None are tough to level anyway because XP is crazy fast. (Not that I want it slowed, I'm just sayin'....)

[Calthine]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I got really excited at the prospect of merging weaponsmiths with Blacksamith and woordworkers with Carpenters. Any chance of this happening soon? It would help resolve the issue of too few recipes for those classes.</p></blockquote>If you go back and read Ilucides' post, you'll see it was a hypothetical question.  He was feeling us out, not telling us it was going to happen.

[Maroger]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I got really excited at the prospect of merging weaponsmiths with Blacksamith and woordworkers with Carpenters. Any chance of this happening soon? It would help resolve the issue of too few recipes for those classes.</p></blockquote>If you go back and read Ilucides' post, you'll see it was a hypothetical question.  He was feeling us out, not telling us it was going to happen. </blockquote>Yes I know it was hypothetical but was hoping it would become reality. I find those with few recipes a true PITA to level compared to scholar tradeskill classes.

[baddogshaun]

<p>Never be allowed anyway. Conversation thusly:</p><p>Dev: "Can I reduce the number of tradeskill classes from 9 to 7 to reflect.."</p><p>Marketing and Finance Department "SHUT UP! And get your coat"</p><p>Think about it, there is no way the ones who have to sell the game are going to be content with not being able to say "9 unique tradeskill classes and 2 Secondary Tradeskill classes" and having to say "7" or whatever. A reduction in headline numbers? Never.</p>

[Nuhus]

baddogshaun wrote: <blockquote><p>Think about it, there is no way the ones who have to sell the game are going to be content with not being able to say "9 unique tradeskill classes and 2 Secondary Tradeskill classes" and having to say "7" or whatever. A reduction in headline numbers? Never.</p></blockquote><p>It's happened before..</p><p>Pleasing the majority and downsizing the rest. </p>

[Calthine]

If it WERE to happen, it wouldn't be soon.  According to his post Ilucide started that thread to see if he should even bring it up tot he Dev team or not.  So if he DID, they'd just be starting to discuss it.

[Ratmaster2000]

I hope they never merge the tradeskillers. Yes, having few recipes as a carpenter or weaponsmith does suck, but I counter the dullness by doing a ton of tradeskill writs. Not only does it make the tradeskill XP fly, it benefits you, your guild and your status to get all those cool tradeskill toys<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I think people would be quite irked if we went back to the EQI way of TS'ing, it works just fine now. 

[Devilsbane]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I got really excited at the prospect of merging weaponsmiths with Blacksamith and woordworkers with Carpenters. Any chance of this happening soon? It would help resolve the issue of too few recipes for those classes.</p><p>I really want to see something done about the lack of new recipes for each level for certain tradeskill classes. If you don't merge then could we get something like more XP for our pristines for those classes. Right now they are very tedious to level.</p></blockquote>Hiss! I prey to Brell it never happens. Instead they need to expand the recipes by changing the way adornements are applied to items. Adding recipes for each level, slot, or item type that applies adornments. Never understand how someone without weaponsmith knowledge can apply an adornement to a weapon.

[Rijacki]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it WERE to happen, it wouldn't be soon.  According to his post Ilucide started that thread to see if he should even bring it up tot he Dev team or not.  So if he DID, they'd just be starting to discuss it. </blockquote> And if you believe that it would be the first time ever it was discussed or even that it would be -starting- to talk about it from scratch... there's a nice bridge I'd like to sell you. The question may be hypothetical and no work may have been done on it, but I'm positive it didn't come completely out of left field or the blue or from over the rainbow or out of a dream with pink elephants.  But, even though it has mostly likely been discussed before the hypothetical was posted, if they began work on it today it would likely be several months before it was implemented.  (However, if they've already been working on implementing it, it might only be a couple GUs away).  Since the majority of effort for tradeskills has been to simplify it, I wouldn't doubt the effort was started before the hypothetical question. Then again, I have become more cynical the less improvements have really been added.  (Just like the "high level tradeskill additions added with this GU *rolls her eyes*.  High level -adventurer- obtained recipes and components that happen to require -some- tradeskill classes.)

[Maroger]

<cite>Ratmaster2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hope they never merge the tradeskillers. Yes, having few recipes as a carpenter or weaponsmith does suck, but I counter the dullness by doing a ton of tradeskill writs. Not only does it make the tradeskill XP fly, it benefits you, your guild and your status to get all those cool tradeskill toys<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I think people would be quite irked if we went back to the EQI way of TS'ing, it works just fine now. </blockquote><p>The writs are a piece of c**p too. We get them at x0, X4, X9 -- now what kind of split is that???!!! If they only want to have 3 then the third should be a x7 -- currently for levelling it is useless to do writs after you hit or pass x6.  You get no levelling benefit and the money is so pathetic as to not to be worth mention. </p><p>Basically as it now when you an x8 tradeskiller you end up if you do a writ doing GREEN WRITS -- that is a total piece of [I cannot control my vocabulary] as a design. I can't understand how this p**s poor piece of design was allowed to do forward. I guess someone was not getting as much supervision as he needed in view of his demonstrably low ability. Fortunaly he is gone but there is still his mess to clean up.; </p>

[Maroger]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it WERE to happen, it wouldn't be soon.  According to his post Ilucide started that thread to see if he should even bring it up tot he Dev team or not.  So if he DID, they'd just be starting to discuss it. </blockquote> And if you believe that it would be the first time ever it was discussed or even that it would be -starting- to talk about it from scratch... there's a nice bridge I'd like to sell you. The question may be hypothetical and no work may have been done on it, but I'm positive it didn't come completely out of left field or the blue or from over the rainbow or out of a dream with pink elephants.  But, even though it has mostly likely been discussed before the hypothetical was posted, if they began work on it today it would likely be several months before it was implemented.  (However, if they've already been working on implementing it, it might only be a couple GUs away).  Since the majority of effort for tradeskills has been to simplify it, I wouldn't doubt the effort was started before the hypothetical question. Then again, I have become more cynical the less improvements have really been added.  (Just like the "high level tradeskill additions added with this GU *rolls her eyes*.  High level -adventurer- obtained recipes and components that happen to require -some- tradeskill classes.) </blockquote>The problem with tradeskill I suspect was due to the low skilled and unimaginative invididual who was assigned to work on the project. He cared as much about tradeksills as I care about scrubbing a floor on my hands and knees with a brush.  Which he didn't give a [Removed for Content] and his work showed his. I am still shocked that this supervisor was so lax with him -- I guess just too much to do and the guy got left on this too much.

[Deson]

Lay off Maroger. Beghn had a lot on his plate from the moment he took over from Frizznik. Beside that, some of your data is wrong like the fact that Dymus did writs not Beghn and the Dymus also rushed them so we could get them ASAP. Could things have been done better? Maybe but, the personal animosity is uncalled for.

[Maroger]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lay off Maroger. Beghn had a lot on his plate from the moment he took over from Frizznik. Beside that, some of your data is wrong like the fact that Dymus did writs not Beghn and the Dymus also rushed them so we could get them ASAP. Could things have been done better? Maybe but, the personal animosity is uncalled for.</blockquote><p>Sorry but I lawy the entire problem with the current tradeskills and the mess that is transmuting and tinkering at the foot of Beghn -- who was incompetent and needed close supervision which he apparently did not get. He was NOT capable of working without the most minute supervision.</p><p>And the tradeskills writs all need to be redone -- they are a walking disaster and really fairly useless after x6 </p>

[Deson]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lay off Maroger. Beghn had a lot on his plate from the moment he took over from Frizznik. Beside that, some of your data is wrong like the fact that Dymus did writs not Beghn and the Dymus also rushed them so we could get them ASAP. Could things have been done better? Maybe but, the personal animosity is uncalled for.</blockquote><p>Sorry but I lawy the entire problem with the current tradeskills and the mess that is transmuting and tinkering at the foot of Beghn -- who was incompetent and needed close supervision which he apparently did not get. He was NOT capable of working without the most minute supervision.</p><p>And the tradeskills writs all need to be redone -- they are a walking disaster and really fairly useless after x6 </p></blockquote>With the exception of typos, Beghn was more than capable. That does not mean I agree with everything he did but, in actual technical execution he did as well as his peers. Without completely starting over he was tasked to retier the itemization, redo the entire database, come up with a way to add progression, and to find out how to deal with subs in a crunched time frame- less than a year. While you may not like what he did you do have to give him credit for doing all that in less than a year and keeping that tempo with EoF.  You were not his supervisor so you have no idea what he was like so the personal attack here is far over the top. It's one thing to say he was the wrong man for EQ2, it's completely different to insult his base capability. You can't even say he didn't listen to us because just about every time he made a decision we didn't agree with, he fixed it. Remember KoS armors? Heck, DoF launch crafted.  He had ideas, he tried them and actually took the heat we gave him pretty well. These attacks are wholly unfair. As far as writs go, well, personally I'd like to see us able to scribe by tier instead of by level and then from there just have the tiers writs open up for us so we can grind more efficiently that way and be allowed some risk/ freedom. If that's not possible then the major tweak I'd like to see is them going up by 3's. Regardless, them being "useless" or not is a debate that is skewed by many factors including class.If I recall,the primary purpose and the way they were designed was not so much leveling but, to provide a market supplement to afford books and as status/faction generators. Given all the perks, they are a somewhat inefficient leveling vehicle- just like adventuring writs.I'd hardly call them a "walking disaster" with all the facts on the table.

[Rast]

<p>While I disagree with the direction Beghn took crafting, I do not blame him for this mess in the slightest as he was most likely only doing what he was told to do.</p><p>IMNSHO, more damage has been done to crafting than any other area of the game since release and I don't see any real damage control going on now, only more ideas to destroy it further.</p><p>As much as it pains me, I still say if they removed tradeskilling tomorrow, changed the NPC for our mastercrafted,  it would have a negligable impact on the game.</p>

[Calthine]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p> and I don't see any real damage control going on now, only more ideas to destroy it further.</p></blockquote>???? It was a <i>hypothetical</i> question.

[Rast]

<p>and a hypothetical question is not an idea?</p><p>Regardless, crafting is probably beyond saving on any real level this late in the game anyways, so might as well destroy it as much as you're going to so at least we'd know where we stood <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Deson]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>While I disagree with the direction Beghn took crafting, I do not blame him for this mess in the slightest as he was most likely only doing what he was told to do.</p><p>IMNSHO, more damage has been done to crafting than any other area of the game since release and <b>I don't see any real damage control going on now, only more ideas to destroy it further.</b></p><p>As much as it pains me, I still say if they removed tradeskilling tomorrow, changed the NPC for our mastercrafted,  it would have a negligable impact on the game.</p></blockquote>Do clarify that. All I've seen since Beghn's departure is Ilucide fixing long standing issues, attempting to knock out some easy stuff like reestablishing fable crafted, adding in more recipes- albeit I haven't seen the Unrest provisioner recipe to directly comment.The biggest thing however, is the putting up for serious debate the merger of some trades in order to help their market issues and establish a new base from which to build on- something required for any actual advancement in trades. Couple that with Ilucide's general presence on the TS boards and I'm hard pressed how that statement can be seriously made. I also disagree with  the loss of trade having a negligible impact. The social construct trades have made in this game would be an unquantifiable but devastating loss to EQ2. Can you imagine losing Calthine and Niami? We really need to drop the negativity. All it's doing is raising the noise level and making it harder to develop a real direction for trades through quality feedback. We have what at least appears to be a listening ear, we should take advantage of it, not rot it off with vitriol.

[mconway7157]

<cite>baddogshaun wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Never be allowed anyway. Conversation thusly:</p><p>Dev: "Can I reduce the number of tradeskill classes from 9 to 7 to reflect.."</p><p>Marketing and Finance Department "SHUT UP! And get your coat"</p><p>Think about it, there is no way the ones who have to sell the game are going to be content with not being able to say "9 unique tradeskill classes and 2 Secondary Tradeskill classes" and having to say "7" or whatever. A reduction in headline numbers? Never.</p></blockquote><p> I've been a lurker my entire time within EQ2, so this may be my first post. I had some thoughts that I thought I should share. Please keep in mind, these are only my opinions. </p><p>  I disagree. It can and HAS happened. Can anyone say "SW:G" ?  The game went from 32professions to NINE over night, and look what it caused. The "NGE" was "in the works" for over a year and SONY made no mention about it. It was pushed live and the community was stunned. I do not put anything past SONY. They did what the did to that game, there's nothing to stop them from doing it to EQ2. </p><p>  On another note: </p><p> I seriously hope they don't merge anything. The issue is low recipes for the classes. The "solution" isn't to merge them. The "solution" is to have the Tradeskill people come up with new recipes for each profession. Anything else, in my opinion, will negatively effect the game I've known to enjoy. </p>

[Ilucide]

<cite>mconway7157 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>  I disagree. It can and HAS happened. Can anyone say "SW:G" ?  The game went from 32professions to NINE over night, and look what it caused. The "NGE" was "in the works" for over a year and SONY made no mention about it. It was pushed live and the community was stunned. I do not put anything past SONY. They did what the did to that game, there's nothing to stop them from doing it to EQ2. </p></blockquote>Yeah... no. My question was, as I clearly stated in my post, a question. Neither I, nor anyone else on the team, have devoted any time to anything beyond that post and reading the responses to it. It was, and remains, a purely hypothetical question. As to the NGE, please try to remember that game development teams are different, as are the goals of each team and the direction they're taking their game, or wish to take their game. -Ilu

[Looker1010]

<cite>baddogshaun wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Never be allowed anyway. Conversation thusly:</p><p>Dev: "Can I reduce the number of tradeskill classes from 9 to 7 to reflect.."</p><p>Marketing and Finance Department "SHUT UP! And get your coat"</p><p>Think about it, there is no way the ones who have to sell the game are going to be content with not being able to say "9 unique tradeskill classes and 2 Secondary Tradeskill classes" and having to say "7" or whatever. A reduction in headline numbers? Never.</p></blockquote>Since I see no advertising of EQII anywhere the point is moot. Now perhaps if they did advertise....

[Bayne]

<cite>Ilucide wrote:</cite><blockquote>My question was, as I clearly stated in my post, a question. Neither I, nor anyone else on the team, have devoted any time to anything beyond that post and reading the responses to it. It was, and remains, a purely hypothetical question. </blockquote>And I pray it stays hypothetical

[Delpha]

<cite>Ilucide wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>mconway7157 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do not put anything past SONY. </blockquote>As to the NGE, please try to remember that game development teams are different </blockquote><p>Nice try!  MConway had this nailed down - only he was too specific!  As sets and venn relationships go - sure Developers of Sony games belong to the group of people who work for Sony...</p><p>But really... Everyone who works for Sony belongs to the set of people who are people!</p><p>I do not put anything past PEOPLE.  And I hold them /all/ accountable for anything that displeases me!</p>

[Maroger]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>While I disagree with the direction Beghn took crafting, I do not blame him for this mess in the slightest as he was most likely only doing what he was told to do.</p><p>IMNSHO, more damage has been done to crafting than any other area of the game since release and I don't see any real damage control going on now, only more ideas to destroy it further.</p><p>As much as it pains me, I still say if they removed tradeskilling tomorrow, changed the NPC for our mastercrafted,  it would have a negligable impact on the game.</p></blockquote><p>Are you saying that no person is responsible for the work product they put out???????</p><p>You have not evidence that he was doing what he was told to do -- if he was just some robot -- who had no voice in anything including when he went to meals -- I really doubt that anyone except a totally newbie get NO voice in the code they write. </p><p>I think all he was looking for was the easiest way to do a job he didn't want. Why do you think we got so many [Removed for Content] roots in the recipes???????????? Yes I totally blame Beghn for all of that [Removed for Content]-up with recipes. </p><p><span style="color: #ccffff"><span style="font-size: x-small"><b>Personally at this point I would rather see EQ1 style crafting in this game</b></span> </span>-- throw the [Removed for Content] arts out ( they just drag out process) -- keep the harvesting in and let the crafting be done EQ1 style - one click combine, RNG determines the outcome. That is a whole lot easier for those with few recipes to make leavels than the current mess we have.</p><p>I suspect that only one against merging tradeskills are those that already hit 70 -- yes they can enjoy the cream and laugh at the rest of us grinding away on 2-3 recipes a level. </p>

[Nuhus]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I suspect that only one against merging tradeskills are those that already hit 70 -- yes they can enjoy the cream and laugh at the rest of us grinding away on 2-3 recipes a level. </p></blockquote> My woodworker and carpenter are no where near 70. I have a different view on it. And I happen to disagree with a merger. I think there are better ways to solve the issues.

[Jai1]

"I made this half-pony/half-monkey monster to please you, but I get the feeling that you don't like it.  What's with all the screaming?!?"

[Calthine]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I suspect that only one against merging tradeskills are those that already hit 70 -- yes they can enjoy the cream and laugh at the rest of us grinding away on 2-3 recipes a level. </p></blockquote> Kindly do not sterotype.  Daggone, I get tired of that one.  I leveled my girls up before XP increases, before harvesting increases, and mostly before no-subs.  This does not make me an elitist, enjoying-the-cream, so-n-so.  I work darn hard at my profession and am still leveing up other Artisans. No one's laughing.  We just don't like the idea.  And if you bothered to read some posts, you'd see that.

[Jai1]

I would have to disagree with the slow rate of progress statement.  Maybe it's Vanguard, but I wouldn't call getting levels in about an hour slow.   I also leveled my armorsmith to 45 with the old combines way.  [Removed for Content] no new recipes for 3-4 levels?   That could have been broken but the solution was to give them more recipes.  It also a viable option for the current difficulties.   I'm not sure the problem IS slow rate versus having more viable goods.   So merging wouldn't neccesarily fix anything except speed of level which I don't know if that's the real problem.

[FoxRiverRanger]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I suspect that only one against merging tradeskills are those that already hit 70 -- yes they can enjoy the cream and laugh at the rest of us grinding away on 2-3 recipes a level. </p></blockquote><p>Yes, my main is a level 70 Woodworker who leveled through tier 6 and 7 without writs.  But I didn't reach 120,000 items and 470,000 GSP because I stopped grinding out combines at 70 (after 99,999 items your sig will lose the ones digit if you are looking at mine).  I am also leveling other crafters: currently I have an Armorer and Tailor both finishing Tier 4 and a Jeweler in Tier 5.  Leveling the Jeweler is ridiculously easy and not nearly as satisfying as the ding on a new Armorer level.  </p><p>My opposition to this hypothetical merger has nothing to do with laughing at anyone, but a concern for what I precieve is best for crafting.  For assuring the crafting game is an equal alternative to adventuring, as advertised; not as a sideline activity for bored adventurers.  A game that should require a commitment of time and effort,  one that provides a progression of rewards that continue beyond the simple grind to level, one that allows the crafter to earn access to the best crafting by crafting, a game that provides a crafting parallel to raiding.  </p><p>I believe I posted detailed suggestions for alternatives in the other thread, as did many others who are opposed to this idea.</p>

[TaleraRis]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <p>I suspect that only one against merging tradeskills are those that already hit 70 -- yes they can enjoy the cream and laugh at the rest of us grinding away on 2-3 recipes a level. </p></blockquote> I have 8 languishing near the beginning of Tier 6 and one still in Tier 3. I'm against merging because it's tossing a band-aid on a wound that needs stitches and calling it healed. It's not going to fix anything that currently is bringing the viability of the merged classes down except a slight boost on the leveling issue, but there are issues with the leveling issue not related to number of recipes that this won't touch, ie resource consumption.

[mellowknees72]

<cite>mconway7157 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>baddogshaun wrote:  </p><p>I disagree. It can and HAS happened. <b>Can anyone say "SW:G" ?  The game went from 32professions to NINE over night, and look what it caused. </b>The "NGE" was "in the works" for over a year and SONY made no mention about it. It was pushed live and the community was stunned. I do not put anything past SONY. They did what the did to that game, there's nothing to stop them from doing it to EQ2. </p></blockquote><p>I hope and pray that Sony Online Entertainment learned a lesson when they made those sweeping changes to SWG.  I would hate to see a merger of tradeskills.  Addition of more recipes would be a much better choice to even out various TS classes' abilities to level at similar speeds. </p>

[Deson]

Pipes@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>mconway7157 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>baddogshaun wrote:  </p><p>I disagree. It can and HAS happened. <b>Can anyone say "SW:G" ?  The game went from 32professions to NINE over night, and look what it caused. </b>The "NGE" was "in the works" for over a year and SONY made no mention about it. It was pushed live and the community was stunned. I do not put anything past SONY. They did what the did to that game, there's nothing to stop them from doing it to EQ2. </p></blockquote><p>I hope and pray that Sony Online Entertainment learned a lesson when they made those sweeping changes to SWG.  I would hate to see a merger of tradeskills.  Addition of more recipes would be a much better choice to even out various TS classes' abilities to level at similar speeds. </p></blockquote>SW:G NGE is also nothing close to what he proposed except as surface comparison. He did not propose a wholesale rewrite, just the removal of classes of limited resource and ability within the game world. The worst thing about NGE is that any serious change that tries to get to core issues in any game conjures up the comparisons and conspiracies no matter how unfounded or inaccurate. Adding more recipes only helps partially. There is still the issue of the markets themselves that must be dealt with. If the only concern was leveling, hordes of useless junk could just be dumped in with almost 0 effect on the trades themselves. While his proposal is not perfect, it certainly has proven itself in gathering info for what could be done.

[StargateFanGirl]

<p>Maroger wrote: </p><blockquote><p>I suspect that only one against merging tradeskills are those that already hit 70 -- yes they can enjoy the cream and laugh at the rest of us grinding away on 2-3 recipes a level. </p></blockquote><p> I am not a lvl 70 anything, I have a lvl 36 Carpenter and a lvl 24 Woodworker and I am 100% against merging the tradeskills. So your suspicions are incorrect. I stated my reasons for being against the merger in Illucide's thread and I'll leave it in that thread.</p>

[Meio]

<cite>Ilucide wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>mconway7157 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>  I disagree. It can and HAS happened. Can anyone say "SW:G" ?  The game went from 32professions to NINE over night, and look what it caused. The "NGE" was "in the works" for over a year and SONY made no mention about it. It was pushed live and the community was stunned. I do not put anything past SONY. They did what the did to that game, there's nothing to stop them from doing it to EQ2. </p></blockquote>Yeah... no. My question was, as I clearly stated in my post, a question. Neither I, nor anyone else on the team, have devoted any time to anything beyond that post and reading the responses to it. It was, and remains, a purely hypothetical question. As to the NGE, please try to remember that game development teams are different, as are the goals of each team and the direction they're taking their game, or wish to take their game. -Ilu </blockquote>I hope you will communicate the merge as soon as you decide to do it and start working on it. It would suck to level 2 of the merged classes, while SOE is working at merging them. btw thx for the info =)

[Rijacki]

<cite>Meiox2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ilucide wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>mconway7157 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>  I disagree. It can and HAS happened. Can anyone say "SW:G" ?  The game went from 32professions to NINE over night, and look what it caused. The "NGE" was "in the works" for over a year and SONY made no mention about it. It was pushed live and the community was stunned. I do not put anything past SONY. They did what the did to that game, there's nothing to stop them from doing it to EQ2. </p></blockquote>Yeah... no. My question was, as I clearly stated in my post, a question. Neither I, nor anyone else on the team, have devoted any time to anything beyond that post and reading the responses to it. It was, and remains, a purely hypothetical question. As to the NGE, please try to remember that game development teams are different, as are the goals of each team and the direction they're taking their game, or wish to take their game. -Ilu </blockquote>I hope you will communicate the merge as soon as you decide to do it and start working on it. It would suck to level 2 of the merged classes, while SOE is working at merging them. btw thx for the info =) </blockquote>On the same token, I hope they give information if they decide -not- to do it.  (and I hope they don't.. and I only have one 70 artisan with a few others around 30).

[Calthine]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>On the same token, I hope they give information if they decide -not- to do it.  (and I hope they don't.. and I only have one 70 artisan with a few others around 30). </blockquote> Me too. 

[Badaxe Ba]

<p>With the posted increase in SA subscription rates upcoming, and I'm sure some tradeskillers will be cutting back a few alts as well, you have to ask yourself which tradeskills will you be putting aside as less playable?</p>

[Maroger]

Omni@Najena wrote: <blockquote>I would have to disagree with the slow rate of progress statement.  Maybe it's Vanguard, but I wouldn't call getting levels in about an hour slow.   I also leveled my armorsmith to 45 with the old combines way.  [Removed for Content] no new recipes for 3-4 levels?   That could have been broken but the solution was to give them more recipes.  It also a viable option for the current difficulties.   I'm not sure the problem IS slow rate versus having more viable goods.   So merging wouldn't neccesarily fix anything except speed of level which I don't know if that's the real problem.</blockquote><span style="font-size: x-small"><p>In the old sub combine method you got to make a lot more pristines per level than you do now which gave you the pristine bonus. You got to make all those worts -- 4 pristines there, the various components -- at least 5-6 pristine there. And then you started on the regular recipes. You could get to almost 50% of the level just on worts and subcombine stuff alone and then the few recipes would get you the rest of the way along with the XP for making the worts and sub. So it was never a tedious to level as it is now. The XP for pristines is no different then it used to be but you get to make fewer pristine. </p><p> <span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #ffcc33"><b>So YES IT IS ABOUT THE SLOW LEVELLING INTRODUCED WITH THE ELIMINATION OF SUBCOMBINES.</b></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">On top of that we now make worthless junk -- at least we could make a small profit selling to NPC vendors. They took that away. And the writs don't make up for it -- they don't help you level and they as hell don't give you enough money to buy the advanced books. So the writs aren't great either.</span></p></span><p><span style="font-size: x-small">So since they don't seem to want to give us more recipes, or increase the XP from Pristines for certain Tradeskills -- the bottom line is that for certain classes  LEVELING IS A PITA -- so regardless of what people say those that got 70 before the massiver NERF -- had it good. The rest of us got screwed!!</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">Right now tradeskilling except for a few classes is not an alternative to adventuring which was what they orginally promised. Now it makes no sense to say that -- all of a sudden we need to harvest a lot more than we used to in the days of sub-combines.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">That is what combining a few tradeskills would make levelling easier and not such a boring thing. Honestly the sub combine removal was a GREAT WAY to make people use BOTS as that at least eliminates the massive tedium which is now a part of tradeskilling for certain classes.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">More recipes WILL NOT FIX weaponsmits and woodworking and carpenters and armorsmiths. Because basically what we make is junk. By combining two tradeskills you would get more recipes and levelling would be easier plus you might get some more saleable stuff. My weaponsmith and woodworker are about level 32 and are sitting there as they are useless and a waste of time to level -- they make almost nothing usable and it sure isn't sellable. Maybe by T6 and T7 some useful stuff might show up -- but the time and tedium getting there is not worth it. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">And the last INSULT was making getting  recipes and components for special items available to tradskillers only if they raid ----- Just another slap in the face to tradeskilers along with making seconday tradeskills(?) dependant on adventuring level not tradeskill level. Every time they do something for tradeskill we get hit with a NERF.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">  </span></p>

[Calthine]

But making Finals nets you more XP than making builds did.  It's a wash.

[Maroger]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>But making Finals nets you more XP than making builds did.  It's a wash. </blockquote>Have you used your calculator to calculate this? Do you have mathematical proof for this assertion?

[Rast]

<p>it is true, you did get more xp for finals, but in many cases you gave up quite a few pristines and it would (IMO) take at least a level of finals to make up for it each tier.  I know as an armorer in those early tiers, I lived off of the pristine bonuses of those subs for the late levels (when I saved them for) due to the lack of recipes.</p><p>I also normally spent the first 2 levels of a tier or so making nothing but subs as well.  It broke it up well IMO.</p>

[Meio]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: x-small"><p><span style="font-size: x-small">on top of that we now make worthless junk .....</span></p></span><p><span style="font-size: x-small">More recipes WILL NOT FIX weaponsmits and woodworking and carpenters and armorsmiths. Because basically what we make is junk. By combining two tradeskills you would get more recipes and levelling would be easier plus you might get some more saleable stuff. ........ </span></p> <p><span style="font-size: x-small"> .. Every time they do something for tradeskill we get hit with a NERF.</span></p> <p><span style="font-size: x-small">  </span></p></blockquote>You say combining would not fix it, but we could make more stuff, then you say we make worthless junk. So you want to combine it to make more worthless junk and still have a unfixed TS ? 3 Recipies more per level will not help much for leveling. I guess you just want a second profession for free. Do you remember how crafting was at the beginning ? Then say your last sentence again. It was MUCH harder at the beginning.

[Terron]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>That is a whole lot easier for those with few recipes to make leavels than the current mess we have.</p><p>I suspect that only one against merging tradeskills are those that already hit 70 -- yes they can enjoy the cream and laugh at the rest of us grinding away on 2-3 recipes a level. </p></blockquote>Leveling does not to be made a "whole lot easier". It needs to be made less boring, which is a much harder thing to achieve. Making it quicker might help in the short term, but is not a good long term solution. I am against the mergers, particularly of woodworker and carpenter, but none of my toons have hit 70. My highest is a level 61 jeweler, the woodworker has just reached 43 and the carpenter is 28. I also have a 46 tailor, 46 alchemist and 26 provisioner. I largely gave up on tradeskilling after LU24, because there was nothing exciting for me to make without going up several levels and grinding up those levels was too boring. I did give writs a try when they came back. They reduced the boredom a bit but not enough so I stopped again, just making stuff when I needed it or I was asked for it. The proposal to remove imbues got me motivated enough to get over the boring stretch for a couple of classes (tailor and jeweler) which I continued through the interesting levels. The Frostfell recipes also helped. I wnet back to doing a bit of tradeskilling when I only had a short time to play, mostly with the alchemist. The recent change to arrows got me motivated to take my woodworker up from 40 to 43. I will probably take her to 44 for wands.

[mconway7157]

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pipes@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>mconway7157 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>baddogshaun wrote:  </p><p>I disagree. It can and HAS happened. <b>Can anyone say "SW:G" ?  The game went from 32professions to NINE over night, and look what it caused. </b>The "NGE" was "in the works" for over a year and SONY made no mention about it. It was pushed live and the community was stunned. I do not put anything past SONY. They did what the did to that game, there's nothing to stop them from doing it to EQ2. </p></blockquote><p>I hope and pray that Sony Online Entertainment learned a lesson when they made those sweeping changes to SWG.  I would hate to see a merger of tradeskills.  Addition of more recipes would be a much better choice to even out various TS classes' abilities to level at similar speeds. </p></blockquote>SW:G NGE is also nothing close to what he proposed except as surface comparison. He did not propose a wholesale rewrite, just the removal of classes of limited resource and ability within the game world. The worst thing about NGE is that any serious change that tries to get to core issues in any game conjures up the comparisons and conspiracies no matter how unfounded or inaccurate. Adding more recipes only helps partially. There is still the issue of the markets themselves that must be dealt with. If the only concern was leveling, hordes of useless junk could just be dumped in with almost 0 effect on the trades themselves. While his proposal is not perfect, it certainly has proven itself in gathering info for what could be done. </blockquote><p>   My entire point was: The mergers could happen without anything being said and that the powers to be could reduce the TS in our game, as they did in Galaxies. (A previous poster said they'd "never" take away from tradeskilling)  SONY, in my opinion, made a giant mistake with Galaxies. In my opinion, they're only interested in their "bottom line". </p><p>:Edit for grammar:</p>

[Obadiah]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>But making Finals nets you more XP than making builds did.  It's a wash. </blockquote>Have you used your calculator to calculate this? Do you have mathematical proof for this assertion? </blockquote> It's not a wash. It's crazy fast now compared to the old days. I don't need a calculator. To say otherwise is just crazy talk. If I had a non-crafting toon and had some quest that required me to do a level 60 combine . . . I would delete it from my journal if I were stuck in a pre-LU24 world. When I hit level 40 as a Weaponsmith I decided I'd try to beat the tedium that I hated in the 30s . . . or rather stack it all up front. I made one of every subcomponent in all of the cross-class arts for the pristine bonus, then made enough subcombines to make 5 of every weapon from level 41 through level 45. That meant refining over 300 fulginate clusters, and oodles of other crap . . . every one pristine for max XP (OK, I probably failed on a few, or got lazy on some and only filled up 3 bars for expediency). Then I started making the finals . . . the weapons themselves. When I ran out of subcomponents I wasn't even halfway through level 44. So I had to make MORE subs and more level 44 finals just to get to 45. When I hit 45, making each of the four new recipes got me 11% into the level. Then just a hair under 1% per final combine for 89% more . . . plus way to many subcombines where the bar doesn't even move. Meanwhile . . . making each of the EIGHT new recipes at level 68 under the current system put me over 30%. My Carpenter and Tailor each went from the mid-40s to 65 and 70 respectively in just a few weeks after the revamp. Why? It took a LOT less time to level, the Tailor suddenly had marketable products besides bags and dolls, and writs were suddenly worth doing because they required pristines. They were also kind of fun for a while since they're timed. <b>Boom </b>. . . 8 minutes, 8%.

[Lydiae]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Omni@Najena wrote: <blockquote>I would have to disagree with the slow rate of progress statement.  Maybe it's Vanguard, but I wouldn't call getting levels in about an hour slow.   I also leveled my armorsmith to 45 with the old combines way.  [Removed for Content] no new recipes for 3-4 levels?   That could have been broken but the solution was to give them more recipes.  It also a viable option for the current difficulties.   I'm not sure the problem IS slow rate versus having more viable goods.   So merging wouldn't neccesarily fix anything except speed of level which I don't know if that's the real problem.</blockquote><span style="font-size: x-small"><p> <span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #ffcc33"><b>So YES IT IS ABOUT THE SLOW LEVELLING INTRODUCED WITH THE ELIMINATION OF SUBCOMBINES.</b></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><b>On top of that we now make worthless junk</b> -- at least we could make a small profit selling to NPC vendors. They took that away. And the writs don't make up for it -- they don't help you level and they as hell don't give you enough money to buy the advanced books. So the writs aren't great either.</span></p></span><p><span style="font-size: x-small">So since they don't seem to want to give us more recipes, or increase the XP from Pristines for certain Tradeskills -- the bottom line is that for certain classes  LEVELING IS A PITA -- so regardless of what people say those that got 70 before the massiver NERF -- had it good. The rest of us got screwed!!</span><span style="font-size: x-small">  </span></p></blockquote><p>What is this fixation on levelling?  Is that all there is to crafting?  I craft to make things people want, not to get levels.</p><p>You're also arguing at cross purposes.  Hyperbole notwithstanding, you're right about most crafted gear.  So what's the point of getting to level 70 if the stuff you can make in T7 won't sell? I've got a secret for you, Maroger, lower tier crafted goods sell way better than top end.  You might as well stop at level 50, certainly do so if you're a weaponsmith or armorer, and sell what you can make there because getting to 70 is a wasted effort.</p><p>You're wrong about writs too, they pay better than selling to the NPC vendor did.  Prices on advanced books vary from server to server and from time to time so your blanket statement about being able to afford them is spurious. </p>

[Vonotar]

I've never had problems selling my tradeskilled items for a steady income, besides the majority of my efforts is in kitting out my various alts with gear every 10 levels, Mastercrafted makes a nice starter to each tier, until better dropped equipment is found.

[Articulas]

well i'm still hoping they do it. It would be nice for a lot of us and its not the end of the world if it happens.