I am really close to the wits end with this nonsense - SOE just remove the warden class. [Archive]

Rangequest

02-20-2007, 03:09 AM

Why in the world include a class that the higher you get the more marginalized you become?Everything about the class is marginal at best. We are marginal healers, our buffs are so, so, there is no possible way to contribute dps.Our alternative decisions under the EoF Warden trees are a joke. The cure / ward line is pointless now thanks for the nerf. The movement line is a waste - I don't care how you define knock back, nature's walk states in its description "MOST" when in fact it is useful in "VERY FEW" situations nothing but a waste of AA when 13 points are spent on something that can't be used in a raid. The "melee" is a joke - all the recasts except 1 are longer - I have parsed it at the end of a fight your DPS is lower with the melee line than not unless you are dealing with multiple nonencountered mobs. So basically all the EoF warden tree did was give me 50 points to spend in any of several useless ways and not NEED a horse by getting a marginal improvement in SoW, give the tank power regen and have them whine that I ran out of power and give them laughable spores.And forget about getting decently equipped - we have to work 6 times harder than fighters and 3 times harder than scouts, mages and metal priests before our equivalent equipment pieces drop. The next time people are standing around scratching their heads about why they can't find a healer for their raid - it is because healers have the rarest drops they raid and raid and raid and watch people just go on and on about their dps, take their treasure and the healers is standing there wondering what the heck they just wasted three hours for nothing for. And then the relics don't even make sense - I have to give up 26 wisdom from legendary druid boots to wear fabled warden boots with no wisdom - nothing is ever an upgrade its just another backpack slot for another resist swap.It is a struggle but an enjoyable challenge until around level 65 and then it is so unbalanced that I end up regretting the investment in developing a warden every time I log in.This has been my experience at least. If SOE wants wardens to be marginal to useless why even have the class at all? Or say at character creation "Don't bother if you want an enjoyable raid character." Play something else, no thanks I made my investment here - if it was a mistake fine I made one - but I won't give SOE another chance to extend my investment because they want an unbalanced environment. I would rather give someone else a chance. They went from some really stupid aggrevating things in EQ to come up with totally new and innovative ways to aggrevate you in EQII. The only thing that SOE can innovate is aggrevation not any type of entertainment experience.

Dalwar

02-20-2007, 05:22 AM

Hmm lol man those aa are uber . Nature walk works great in pvp and thats the main thing .Melee line works great in pvp and pve i love it with all stuff that iam wearing with stifle stun procs on and str line from first tree i farm nameds without any problems. The only bad thing was nerf of mit buff ;/ 3 hits is not enough they took my 4.3k mit ;(p.s.english not my native language

lmhotep

02-20-2007, 08:33 AM

Yes yes the world is coming to an end!<img src="/smilies/9293feeb0183c67ea1ea8c52f0dbaf8c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />You obviously picked the wrong class, stop whining and start another one.Now not from my fury`s point of view but from my zerkers point of view: what alot of BS. From all of the healers its either a fury or a warden i want in my group so why would i want that if you are such an underrated class?Maybe cause you arent and you just think you are? Hell id even prefer the warden as i believe there buffs are beter for my style then the fury buffs and saying that when i play a fury myself must mean something dont you think?For the love of god stop crying and definately stop thinking so negative. Hell stop reading these stupid forums cos of all the people who play a warden only the ones who cry and [Removed for Content] about everything post on these forums (known fact, goes for most classes).Now dont get me wrong, you guys prolly need some fixes as most classes need but you make it sound like no one would notice if sony deleted the warden class wich is just alot of BS imho.

Nexiia

02-20-2007, 10:47 AM

<cite>Rangequest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why in the world include a class that the higher you get the more marginalized you become?Everything about the class is marginal at best. We are marginal healers, our buffs are so, so, there is no possible way to contribute dps.Our alternative decisions under the EoF Warden trees are a joke. The cure / ward line is pointless now thanks for the nerf. The movement line is a waste - I don't care how you define knock back, nature's walk states in its description "MOST" when in fact it is useful in "VERY FEW" situations nothing but a waste of AA when 13 points are spent on something that can't be used in a raid. The "melee" is a joke - all the recasts except 1 are longer - I have parsed it at the end of a fight your DPS is lower with the melee line than not unless you are dealing with multiple nonencountered mobs. So basically all the EoF warden tree did was give me 50 points to spend in any of several useless ways and not NEED a horse by getting a marginal improvement in SoW, give the tank power regen and have them whine that I ran out of power and give them laughable spores.And forget about getting decently equipped - we have to work 6 times harder than fighters and 3 times harder than scouts, mages and metal priests before our equivalent equipment pieces drop. The next time people are standing around scratching their heads about why they can't find a healer for their raid - it is because healers have the rarest drops they raid and raid and raid and watch people just go on and on about their dps, take their treasure and the healers is standing there wondering what the heck they just wasted three hours for nothing for. And then the relics don't even make sense - I have to give up 26 wisdom from legendary druid boots to wear fabled warden boots with no wisdom - nothing is ever an upgrade its just another backpack slot for another resist swap.It is a struggle but an enjoyable challenge until around level 65 and then it is so unbalanced that I end up regretting the investment in developing a warden every time I log in.This has been my experience at least. If SOE wants wardens to be marginal to useless why even have the class at all? Or say at character creation "Don't bother if you want an enjoyable raid character." Play something else, no thanks I made my investment here - if it was a mistake fine I made one - but I won't give SOE another chance to extend my investment because they want an unbalanced environment. I would rather give someone else a chance. They went from some really stupid aggrevating things in EQ to come up with totally new and innovative ways to aggrevate you in EQII. The only thing that SOE can innovate is aggrevation not any type of entertainment experience.</blockquote>Alright, I have to respond here. This is by far one of the dumbest posts I've read in a very long time. First off, if you're useless? You don't know how to play your class, Thats your problem. Second of all, if SoE catered to every little whiner who came onto the boards saying Waah my class sucks, get rid of it... There would be no classes for people to play. Our AA's are fine, they could use a little tweaking, but it has been proven over and over again that the melee line can not only output more dps , but also give you a large bonus to healing if you decide to take the KoS str line with it. Warden gear, another thing that is completely fine, I have several set pieces and a couple pieces off of EoF Contested mobs and they are very pleasing. Raids aren't geared toward dps or any of that other bull that you're spouting either, I've raided alot, I've gotten plenty of gear, I've had plenty of fun on raids comparing my parses to those of other healers trying hard on their end and have had no issues whatsoever. Getting geared out is very VERY easy, but it is also very largely about luck when it comes to what drops and when. Relics don't make sense? Reaaalllly , c'mon now, you're just whining. The relic is based around int and wis with minor emphasis on other statistics. This is to balance out the class to a more efficient style, if you had all gear with 60 wis on it and nothing else stat wise you'd be a fool. Wis isn't everything and is easy to push along the diminishing returns curve no matter what kinda stuff you go with. "give the tank power regen and have them whine that I ran out of power and give them laughable spores." <--- Uh spores is laughable? its only a permanent tank buff that can't be stifled stunned etc and can be up nearly ALWAYS when the tank gets hit frequently, giving power regen to the tank is something you may want to do but I know I don't. I also don't find myself running out of power, coincidence? No, because I just know how to manage my mana. Don't forget, you also give a huge offensive buff and a damage sheild oh and a huge power pool buff/wis increase to certain group members as well, even though you may not get anything for them out of EoF they're certainly not useless or to be looked over. Next : Marginal improvement in SoW ... oh you mean like having double the duration and over double the speed? Yeah because thats marginal for something thats FREE compared to a horse of 50% which costs STATUS and PLATINUM and GUILD LEVE. oh yeah you're making tons of sense here.To sum up your whole Whine fest of a post here, YOU are a marginal to useless warden just because you haven't figured out a way to play the class that suits the raid scene and such, maybe if you spent more time looking over what you can do instead of posting how bad you have it. Then you'd realize how great of a class you are actually playing. I've played this class for a Very Very long time, I've raided in Every possible situation , and I've found MANY MANY uses for the class for not only my own solo / grouping needs, but for my guild as well. So , what i am at my wits end with, is people coming on boards crying their little hearts out about how much classes suck and that they should be removed from the game when in fact the person doesn't have a clue on what the class can bring and how nicely put together the class really is when used to it's full potetial.

Mafdet

02-20-2007, 01:03 PM

/agree that the OP could use a back up and look at the tools available to him moment. I feel I pretty much kick butt as a warden. Parses don't measure healers, but it's kinda nice consistantly hitting the top three, no matter what group they put me in. Groupies living and saying you kick butt pretty much means you kick butt... I really like that part <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I even like being dragged into the MT group for my melee and defense buffs, though I prefer other groups so I can keep that melee buff for myself, muahaha!!Have to disagree with Naie about a couple of things, though. It pains me to do so as, from what I can determine, Naie is about as close to an ingame hero that a warden can have. If the OP is too pessimistic, I feel Naie is a tad too optimistic... or unrealistic for us mortal beings...I think gear is the biggest holdback for powerpack warden potential. Yes, the prayers were answered in EoF fabled set gear... the INT flows... now that I need STR to try to scrape together a useful AA line, LoL. And where, oh where, is my nice slow, high damage sword that I need to make use of that haste buff STR AA??Yes, I finally gave in and dumped my next to useless cure line (which I would really like to have back as originally implemented!) and went melee in the hopes Naie's praise was deserved. I actually like it. That heal proc is very nice and I'm adding more regular dps than I used to, without giving up any hps. Even if have to spam heal, I'm putting out some numbers in every encounter now, where before that dps line occassionally read "0&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, I'm nowhere near Naie's 600+ str. Standalone, I presently hit ~360. In the right raid group, I hit ~575, but in MT group, where I also lose my melee skill buff, I do good to hit ~400. I'm desperately trying to research gear that will get my STR up (without losing too much wis) and a nice slow heavy hitting weapon. Right now, the only one I have is the blackscale maul, which means the sword based STR buff is inactive, and the darn thing doesn't even have any STR on it so it's pretty useless to me when I'm not in that strength buffing group. Well, I could go on and on about what l'm looking for and what I'm trying to put together but I think my main point is... why the heck is it such a chore to find gear to work with a line put in especially for us??? I'd grumble under my breath about wanting higher INT gear, back when spec'd that way, but I'd never say it aloud for, in truth, we never had to sacrifice power, resists, anything for INT, with just the regular gear that was obviously healer/druid tailored. Now I feel like blindsiding some poor fighter and stealing his weapons and bling... only thing is, I wouldn't be able to use most of the "good stuff" anyway <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sooo... again... OP, wake up and start living up to your potential <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and... Naie... come over to Unrest for a few and whisper in my GL's ear to direct him to some uber warden gear, cause I'm just not getting it. Being kick butt is awesome but looking at what you say you're putting out, I'm just soooo not living up to my full potential, either, and it doesn't seem to me that other classes have to dig so much for gear that puts them where they need to be :/

Barand

02-20-2007, 01:07 PM

<hr /> Hell stop reading these stupid forums cos of all the people who play a warden only the ones who cry and [I cannot control my vocabulary] about everything post on these forums (known fact, goes for most classes). <hr /> You do realise that this is the use of the forum most of the time ? I will not go and post everyday that i love this game or my class... These forum are here to discuss about the class and that means most of the time the issue about the class, because there is not a lot more to discuss about. I totally disagree with the OP , he is the kind of whiner you talk about, but most of the people who post here, post constructive idea or improvment or feedback.

pootski

02-20-2007, 02:26 PM

I really love those kinds of posts. Makes me appreciate my mature friends, and feel sorry for those that have to put up with children like him. I 2 box. Melee account has a guardian and a retired raiding monk. Healer account has a raiding inquisitor, retired raiding wood elf warden and now I am having a blast with a Fae Warden. Level 70 with 86 AA's I filled up the EoF AA's before even starting on the KoS ones, because they are more fun/useful. Enhanced root/FT/spores/Agro reducer are a hell of a lot better than DPS AA's. I am a HEALER, not an assassin. Raid Freethinkers, MiS and all the other fun stuff. Guild wants the warden over the fully fabled/mastered Inq because of his healing capabilities. Warden heals are built for EoF ae's. I really don't understand why the kids like the OP don't just go play WoW where everything is easy instead of posting the drivel like that.

Dallun

02-20-2007, 06:28 PM

Heh, I'll admit that I've had thoughts like the OP's on more than one occasion simply because the necessity of the Warden class is directly proportionate to the skill and ability of the Shaman and Clerics in a raid. So if they arn't doing their job well you can bet that the Wardens will be there to take up the slack. The problem is that Wardens don't feel like they are needed unless its for an AE fight because after the first 20 seconds Debuffs are in and spikes on the tank are almost always back to full in less then 4 seconds. With that in mind I don't see a way that the class can change and still keep its identity. I do see, however, ways one can tweek the class. For example the Debuff on the Root line would best be seperate from the actual root itself. (Makes taking the Root line in the EoF AA's much more desireable) Or perhaps having a toggle ability that would allow regens to be retro active, like a Cleric reactive except that once damage had been recieved it would trigger the regen as normal. (This would at least allow Regens for Wardens to be a bit more efficient) Dallun 70 Warden Antonia Bayle

02-20-2007, 06:33 PM

I have a Warden master for sale...... wanna buy it?? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

tass

02-20-2007, 09:18 PM

I picked the class to have some dmg and for the heals. No matter what fury ive ever grped with even my guildies cant heal as well as I can. Oh they try and they are good at there classes but they cant do it. Me I picked the class to heal people and have the abilty to solo instead of taking forever as a temp or warder. So im content.

branvil

02-20-2007, 10:38 PM

Hate to say it folks but I agree with a good bit of the OP's thoughts. At least from a raiding standpoint. I think we are excellent group healers but when it comes to raiding I think we are nothing special. If the raid has a good ward healer and a couple of plate healers I find myself nodding off at the wheel. I wish sony would just give us one or two good, useful tools for raiding and I'd be happy.Just my two cents...

Rangequest

02-21-2007, 11:22 AM

First off I would like to state that IMO I do play a warden well. And I do know I contribute a lot to groups and people have always complimented me and been glad to group with me. Even in X2 raids I have a lot to offer. But in X4 what I have said is what I have experienced.Other than one or two encounters, when was the last time a X4 raid said "Oh we don't have a Warden we can't go"? But without a templar X4 raids are nonstarters.What raid guild allows Wardens to even bid DKP on the fighter blades necessary to make our STR and CA worth anything - without weapons that encourage distribution to Wardens going melee is an uphill battle.Also the precense of a few Wardens that have managed to do quite well, and it is impressive to have done so, does not discount the disparity between classes. Is it balanced when a class has to be played perfectly in order to not be marginalized by classes played in an average manner? What about when a class no matter how well played can't begin to contribute in the ways that other classes do when they are played well? Would your guild go after X4 bosses without their warden? Would they without their templar?Well it may be the original post was after a particularly frustrating session - the underlying truth of the feeling and impression I am left with this class remains there.Maybe I am just a whining baby. I selected Warden out of desire to play the class defined by its description as a class and the description of their spells and abilities but at the top of the game the class performance does not deliver as defined or described.

MullenSkywatcher

02-21-2007, 12:24 PM

I feel the OP's pain as well, after leveling my warden to 70, my defiler to 62, and now working on a templar (27), the lack of raid utility is a bitter disappointment. Perhaps the next expansion can flesh things out a bit better. ATM, I feel relegated to off group healing and being a "niche" elemental cure / AoE healer. There's just no "WOW" ability that warden's possess like traumatic swipe or bolster that make us truly needed on raids. And so many abilities, especially in the AA lines just inspire a kinda of "what were they thinking?" attitude. I'm happy to stick it out in the hopes that someday, some developer will be able to walk the fine line of giving us useful abilities without making us overpowered. We have one main warden in the guild, and as the secondary one, I can honestly say that one is often enough on the majority of raids. If you're happy with the current state of the warden, then I envy you.

Oakum

02-21-2007, 01:05 PM

While the OP, IMO, went too far with his statements of a wardens uselessness, the troll posts responding to them especially by the fury's do not help anything. Wardens heal and heal good but dont handle spikes as well as fury's but that is about it. That is really good for lower lvl groups doing hard instances and tough raids where a lot of healing is required.But that is pretty much all we do that others notice which is what marginalizes us as a tank/raid/group is geared up. 99.99 percent of tanks will not notice when they don't have the wardens buffs on them no matter what. They will miss the clerics and shaman's wards, reactives, debufs, buffs and the Fury's spike damage healing ability and their damage buffs in not in the MT group. Fury's can also buff a dps group a whole lot better then our one buff and can do a lot more dps then we can unless we trade off a lot of our primary stat getting brawler gear. Its sad but true that the better our group/raid is, the more we are marginalized and easily replaced by another healing classes that buff hp and can buff/debuff better and more then us. Then of course there is the melee line (which I have always enjoyed getting in a doing a little swinging when I can just for heal procs) that does not have the same lvl of gear available for it as the INT line and has no two handed swords at all for it (fury's do get to use a two handed sword but are nukers and that is just wrong that they can use one and we cant). Of course their is the myth of fury's are offensive healers and wardens are defensive healers but that is reallly true ONLY of our SELF BUFFS. For groups we have different but equivelant defensive group buffs (with some saying that the fury's are better) and one offensive buff compared to the several buffs that fury's get. We do have issues as a class unless you choose to bury your head in the sand. They are not insurmountable though. Its still fun to play, we are just not as "needed" as the other 5 classes for highend content and we cant do our secondary role of DPS to help out the group as well as our counterparts the fury's (and inquisitora and defilers) can.

lmhotep

02-21-2007, 01:26 PM

Roll a fury realy, we are a much better class due to our buffs (your own words) and we rock in every group setup (roflmao).Maybe you dont realy see the effects of your groupbuffs but they are certainly there (better ask for a big sign above your caracter wich says: im being buffed by a warden).Do you realy think a fury sees the effects of his buffs? No OFC not, that tiny bit of int we buff wont do [Removed for Content] cos if the deminishing returns and seeing every mage has his int atleast at the softcap its just a wasted thing. About the only class wich does see a SLIGHT increase in dps is the scoutclass cos there posions proc for more damage.As a warden being in a magecroup buffing wis so gaining more resists has a far better effect IMHO then buffing int... I also stated that i would pick a warden any day whem im tanking cos i can see/feel the effect of his buffs alot more then of a fury`s buffs and yes even tho im a fury i did just say that.As for the trolling: i see a warden trolling his own class stating how useless you guys are, i try to state the opposite and you call that trolling huh? -> LOL

Nexiia

02-21-2007, 11:36 PM

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote>While the OP, IMO, went too far with his statements of a wardens uselessness, the troll posts responding to them especially by the fury's do not help anything. Wardens heal and heal good but dont handle spikes as well as fury's but that is about it. That is really good for lower lvl groups doing hard instances and tough raids where a lot of healing is required.But that is pretty much all we do that others notice which is what marginalizes us as a tank/raid/group is geared up. 99.99 percent of tanks will not notice when they don't have the wardens buffs on them no matter what. They will miss the clerics and shaman's wards, reactives, debufs, buffs and the Fury's spike damage healing ability and their damage buffs in not in the MT group. Fury's can also buff a dps group a whole lot better then our one buff and can do a lot more dps then we can unless we trade off a lot of our primary stat getting brawler gear. Its sad but true that the better our group/raid is, the more we are marginalized and easily replaced by another healing classes that buff hp and can buff/debuff better and more then us. Then of course there is the melee line (which I have always enjoyed getting in a doing a little swinging when I can just for heal procs) that does not have the same lvl of gear available for it as the INT line and has no two handed swords at all for it (fury's do get to use a two handed sword but are nukers and that is just wrong that they can use one and we cant). Of course their is the myth of fury's are offensive healers and wardens are defensive healers but that is reallly true ONLY of our SELF BUFFS. For groups we have different but equivelant defensive group buffs (with some saying that the fury's are better) and one offensive buff compared to the several buffs that fury's get. We do have issues as a class unless you choose to bury your head in the sand. They are not insurmountable though. Its still fun to play, we are just not as "needed" as the other 5 classes for highend content and we cant do our secondary role of DPS to help out the group as well as our counterparts the fury's (and inquisitora and defilers) can. </blockquote>Maybe I just don't get it, I have been main tank healing in Ne Plus Ultra many many times. The tank does notice when he can hit orange x4 mobs with ease, when he has boosted resists due to additional wisdom, when he has the spike healing I bring to the group. Your point about us not being able to cope in other groups is the biggest issue I have, To me that is the only problem with our class, Call this burying my head in the sand if you wish , but If you seriously consider this , then it may be a good thing as we are more inclined to be part of the main tank group to heal them, rather than be off in some mage/dps group where we bring less to that specific group. Maybe I'm one of the only ones who are not experiencing these problems, maybe it's as someone previously said about me just being an optimist.But I think our class is definately something that is very very important to a raid, we bring alot of healing to a raid, and we can cover any spike brought on by any mob. I've been in alot of raids, almost always with at least 1 other druid, but I have proved my place in the raids themselves. If anything, the biggest issue the warden class has is it's group utility, we don't belong in a whole lot of groups aside from main tank group, but we can easilly adapt to this. I thoroughly enjoy playing my class, and the raid wouldn't be what it is without druids. No shaman can replace a druid, they don't do enough direct healing, and templar's can't heal nearly as fast as we can [cast time wise] . It's a matter of finding your place in the raid, and no, not every raid is made up so you will be the most usefull, but there is not a whole lot I haven't raided, and I've always found my place set up for me nicely. Just my personal situation. Call me a Troll, Tell me my head is in the sand...but in the end I still find myself happy with the class and its ability to do what we do best, heal, and have the ability to do dps when large amounts of spike healing is not needed.Edit : Disgregard the quote, the response wasn't entirely toward it. As well as a final note, The class is definately alot harder to be really good at and to make the most of, this is a big deal. To be the best we can be it takes alot more work and gear than certain other classes have to obtain, and yes this can be frustrating for people who do not have luxurious loot amountages, which is something that sucks, and happens. It definately isn't something easy to get used to , but if you stick it out and try really hard to make the most out of the class, they'll notice you and maybe you'll even find a large amount of raid enjoyment out of it as some of us high end raid wardens have found. Although I can't speak for everyone, and some people just don't like the general direction of the class. In which case, maybe its time to just move on until they decide to put a change into it that suits your needs as a player, it might be best. Who knows, but there will always be people like me who put way too much effort into adapting to every situation and making the most out of it, this isn't something that can be expected of everyone, and I am sorry to hear that there are so many unsatisfied players. I can only hope Sony doesn't do anything drastic based on the opinions of these people such as removing the class in its entirety. As personally, I love it.

Barand

02-22-2007, 06:50 AM

i agree with nexiia for most part Main issue is we don't bring many thing outside MT team. Warden doesn't shine for anything but when we are not here i can tell you the raid sense it. Just do a test, dont put primal instinct on the MT of your raid and see if the aggro stay on him on an orange mob. Back in the time doing lyceum first trash without a druid was impossible due to the spike damage on pull. Only druid could help on that due to fast cast time. We have our role since T5 but the issue is that this role hasn't improved at all, whereas other class get expanded ability, new debuff or utility tool, we get nothing. Nothing has changed, same spell, same role, same ability in same order, i just only melee now instead of nuking. We are not bad at all, we are very usefull, last time when we killed cheldrak, i was 2nd healer in parse and first in DPS by a large margin. But i would really like something new in the class, something different to expand a little our role.

Oosu

02-27-2007, 01:42 PM

I really enjoy my Warden. I have been playing him for over a year now. As for bieng marginal. DPs yes. Healing..no way! I am a MT warden. The numbers we can put out for raw healing is just insane. I have found the way to go is crit% if you want to get your numbers up. Raid buffed i am at 40% plus heal crit. That is almost half the time <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. And our buffs are not as useless as you think. We provide the tank with great resists, TONS of mana. make sure you put your aspect and spirit of bat on tank <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. And a nice boost to thier evade. We have fast casting fast cooldown heals. If you know how to play the class right ( and geared properly) spike damage is really not a problem. If your having trouble and getting frusterated with the class. I believe a poster above me said it absulutley right..." This is not the class for you" Reroll see what esle the game has to offer. out of 24 classes i am sure you can find somthing. If not. Have fun in Vanguard or WoW! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And as for Natures walk bieng "useless" Let see you beat Treyloth without a Warden in the group. You can watch your tank get rooted while he stomps on your raid. Easy way to the revive screen...

Kaku99

02-27-2007, 05:29 PM

I hate tp spoil the nay sayers fun but I agree with the OP. EoF AAs suck. I don't even bother trying to accumulate them anymore. When I do, I don't even bother using them. Warden utility in raids has diminshed so much as to be almost worthless. A while back I tried to get my fellow wardens interested in petitioning SOE to give us a self only strength buff to make our melee option somewhat useful. SOE ignored us as usual. Unless SOE is planning on unnerfing our EoF cure line, wardens would be better off betraying to Fury.

Arielle Nightshade

02-27-2007, 05:41 PM

As much issue as I have with the EoF AA's ...I still don't wanna be a Fury. Noooo thank you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'd really like to see the AA's addressed.For perspective, we are not the only classes with AA issues. Defiler AA's are pretty sucky, for example. I'd love for them to do an overhaul of the content of the AAs. What looked good (I'm sure) on paper..doesnt' really translate to useablility in a lot of cases.It's well known that the bane of a Dev's life..is the User of the product. Sorry, devs, we are assuming it's US you are designing the product for, not yourselves..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

GinFan

02-27-2007, 06:13 PM

/agree with Permastoned on all pointsI love playing a Warden. It isn't an easy class because anticipation and timing seem to be everything. Throwing all our heals against a trash epic that is fully debuffed can be wasteful, but spam single target and group regens at the onset of a fight with an aoe throwing named, and we shine. The only healer that typically out parses me in a raid is a Defiler placed in the MT group (who, if I'm in that group with him, has a big power buff and 2 wisdom buffs from yours truly). So what if I don't debuff much, that is what other classes do. So what if I don't handle spike, that's what other classes do. I heal in bulk over time, I cure like a mad man and in non epic situations, I root like one too. I add a small but respectable amount of dps and group resists and have power left at the end of long fights. I prefer not be in a dps group, but I have to admit I get a great deal of satisfaction when we face aoe throwing mobs (especially elemental). Seconds after the AOE is thrown, my whole group is in the green while the other two dps groups are catching up.Do our EoF AA abilities work well, not really. IMO for the most part they spread us too thin rather than focusing us. This is an area for the devs to improve upon. Could I do the same things as well or better as another class, I don't really care anymore. Focusing on class "fairness" makes me unhappy, and I play my Warden in order to become happy.I admit, like others, I've done my fair share of whining in this forum, but I think it's time for all of us to turn that around. The only "nonsense" that I am at "wits end" with is all the crying. I keep coming back hoping for some useful nugget of info, and mostly what I find is more "poor me." Rather than remove the Warden class, by now the Dev's have got to be considering renaming our class from Warden to "Titbaby."/rant off

MullenSkywatcher

02-28-2007, 11:53 AM

A developer's cousin's brother's former roommate told me that when Kunark releases, Wardens will be the most fun class to play... Honest! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rangequest

03-02-2007, 08:55 PM

Permastoned wrote: <blockquote>And as for Natures walk bieng "useless" Let see you beat Treyloth without a Warden in the group. You can watch your tank get rooted while he stomps on your raid. Easy way to the revive screen...</blockquote>He is the only reason I have it at all - but everytime we are thrown back from a fight it makes me think [I cannot control my vocabulary] 14 AA points spent to one named. I can't wait until everyone gets what they want from him and we aren't going back so I can respec.And I am not exactly sure how having one very expensive ability, useful in one fight equates to us being more than marginal to a raid's setup.I still have never heard a raid cancel for lack of a warden. We bring nothing that a raid can't adapt around with other healers easily. However, I have seen raids canceled or the target changed all the time if a templar or defiler doesn't show up. I am glad there are so many people who are OK with the class being marginal. And I am sorry if the class is not critical to success then its contribution is marginal by definition.

nierika

03-03-2007, 05:07 AM

I spec'd Nature Walk specifically for Treyloth but I haven't been too disappointed with it in general, really. I wish they'd define what "some" knockback is, though. I get the slight impression the "some knockback" is really "no knockback but we're going to put this wording in here so wardens will shoosh already". I'm torn on this argument. I have to admit a certain amount of ennui on MT healing all the time (when it's a defiler/templar/warden trio, and the defiler and templar are good at what they do, MT healing becomes a snoozefest.) However, I am not keen on being anything else; I love the warden class for reasons already stated - healing, soloing, et al - but our functionality outside of the MT setting is... well... I know I've been put in the group with the fury so she can DPS while I heal. <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />having said that... I've complained and whined and moaned about being in the MT group all of the time and how there's no challenge to it, but I've noticed that outside of a fury/inquisitor no one else gets put in the mage/scout group on our raids unless there isn't anyone else available. And really that's as it should be - our buffs are very defensively based, as templars, with furies and inq really boosting the dpsers. So I take my lumps with that and autofollow the defiler's dog while I eat my ice cream.we need tweaking (then again, what class doesn't?), but we're not broken. as an aside... the "shoosh" replaced a four lettered acronym for a pharse which loosely translates to being quiet on a certain point... i wasn't aware that SoE was going so anti-profanity hardcore, reminds me a little of the pea*%& days. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Dorchadas

03-04-2007, 09:58 PM

Naie@Guk wrote: <blockquote>Alright, I have to respond here. This is by far one of the dumbest posts I've read in a very long time. </blockquote>I agree this is dumber than althose miss conception of the defintion of an assassin posts on thier forums.... I play a melee warden as an alt..... really I dont know why I dont play him more than my assassin or bruiser so we aren't the best class boo hoo bottem line Wardens are one of the funnset classes on this whole game. I play the melee line and I can heal my group and contribute a fair amount of dps. But man you get my sincerest apologies we should be as over powered as swashies I agree.

IndianHugo

03-04-2007, 10:06 PM

i dont know anything about it, but do you have an buddy pass to give to my friend, on my lan? =) he went to the store but they had no in stock :/

janmystique

03-05-2007, 10:38 AM

I have been playing a warden now for nearly a year. She is my first and main character and I have only recently started raiding with her on a regular basis. Usually I am in the MT group and don't feel that I am just an "also ran" in that group. Maybe I am just full of myself and ignoring the obvious? Maybe I just don't understand what is going on around me? Quite likely! It is a steep learning curve!At the start of a fight when the MT goes down rapidly, I am aware that without the other healing classes, who seem to heal for large amounts very quickly, the MT would be in real danger but this just makes me think that three assorted healers are needed not that I am no good! So, is my casting speed so much slower? Are their skills so much more powerful than mine? Are my buffs worthless by comparison? Although I have some sympathy for the frustrations of the OP, I also feel that surely I would be missed were I not there? And not just because I am filling a space and anything is better than nothing! Surely not?Also, having not seen a parser for respective healing, I am unclear really what my comparative contribution is! All I know is that I can keep going for ages power wise (and have even been asked, rather rudely by a pickup MT, why my power is up when everyone elses is down!). Also, apart from the first big damage on the MT in a raid, I am capable of healing both the MT, my group and even member of others groups in my spare time! And if things get really slow, I do some dps to brighten up my days. I chose a warden because it seemed to be a character that I could effectively solo with as well as group (I hadn't thought of raiding at the time). I like the profession although see room for improvement. The main people that I have seen complaining about wardens are wardens themselves and they have been the ones who have most undermined my confidence in my abilities. Does this confirm my lack of insight and/or skill or rather say something about less happy warden healers? I wish that someone could give me a definitve answer but suspect that that is hardly possible! "It seems however hard they try, that nobody can tell me why. So I know really I suppose, as much as anybody knows."

Barand

03-05-2007, 01:11 PM

I solo almost everything in the game with root and nuke method I solo healed through nizara without any issue recently. I parse 2nd in heal parse and first amongst healer in DPS in raid So i don't think warden is that bad overall in any domain. Warden is not a bad class at all, we just miss the upgrade other class get with each expansion, and most of our utility are either broken or useless.

Oosu

03-05-2007, 06:35 PM

The only reason Shaman parse higher than us (Wardens) is beacuse they [Removed for Content] everyone form healing <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Maledan

03-05-2007, 08:35 PM

Apsenniel@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote>I also feel that surely I would be missed were I not there?</blockquote>Sure, any capable healer will be missed if he isn't there. However, the warden isn't one of the essential classes when it comes to raiding. I have heard statements like "no chance to clear this zone, our mystic isn't here" or "let's skip this mob today, we don't have a brigant", but I never heard "we cannot do this without a warden". For groups 2-4 you'd be better off with a fury, and even in the MT group it's debatable whether a warden is really needed. That's why many people question the raid usefulness of the warden. Apsenniel@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote>Also, having not seen a parser for respective healing, I am unclear really what my comparative contribution is! </blockquote>Most likely, as an MT group warden, you will be right behind the shaman and the cleric on the heal parse. It's just the way healing works in this game: at first the wards take effect, then the reactives trigger, and any remaining damage is healed by HoTs and direct heals. I've found that my relative contribution depends a lot on the difficulty of the mob. The more difficult the mob is, the higher my warden shows up on the parse.

Tommara

03-06-2007, 04:40 AM

<cite>pootski wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really love those kinds of posts. Makes me appreciate my mature friends, and feel sorry for those that have to put up with children like him. I 2 box. Melee account has a guardian and a retired raiding monk. Healer account has a raiding inquisitor, retired raiding wood elf warden and now I am having a blast with a Fae Warden. Level 70 with 86 AA's I filled up the EoF AA's before even starting on the KoS ones, because they are more fun/useful. Enhanced root/FT/spores/Agro reducer are a hell of a lot better than DPS AA's. I am a HEALER, not an assassin. Raid Freethinkers, MiS and all the other fun stuff. Guild wants the warden over the fully fabled/mastered Inq because of his healing capabilities. Warden heals are built for EoF ae's. I really don't understand why the kids like the OP don't just go play WoW where everything is easy instead of posting the drivel like that. </blockquote> So posting something the gist of which is "I'm so smart! I'm so uber!"somehow has more value?

Barand

03-06-2007, 05:59 AM

Did your guild ever considered to raid cheldrak without a warden ?

jka

03-06-2007, 08:53 AM

<cite>Barandos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did your guild ever considered to raid cheldrak without a warden ? </blockquote> Yeah, I know more then one guild can raid Chel'Drak without a warden.

Thunderthyze

03-07-2007, 02:54 PM

To the OP...We have one raid geared warden in our guild and he is an alt. Would we like some more?! Yes please!If you want to feel the love and be appreciated please upsticks and move to Runnyeye server. The Conclave is still recruiting.<a href="http://www.theconclaveguild.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.theconclaveguild.com</a>

Nexiia

03-07-2007, 06:29 PM

I keep hearing that people are saying Oh warden's are replacable but shamans aren't ! well, this may be true for a MT group scenario, but if someone in any other group was missing a healer We could fill that spot easily if losing a shaman or cleric breaks your raid there is something horribly wrong.

Rangequest

03-12-2007, 02:26 AM

<cite>Barandos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did your guild ever considered to raid cheldrak without a warden ? </blockquote>They wouldn't hesitate a moment. Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>To the OP...We have one raid geared warden in our guild and he is an alt. Would we like some more?! Yes please!If you want to feel the love and be appreciated please upsticks and move to Runnyeye server. The Conclave is still recruiting.<a href="http://www.theconclaveguild.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.theconclaveguild.com/</a></blockquote>I never said there was any lack of love from the guild. I am the only main Warden in guild. My posts are observations on my toon's ability to contribute to raids to levels similar to others. The combined primary healing + secondary utility contribution is well below others. And if you want to blame me as the player that is fine and your uniformed perogative to do so. The class is less developed for raiding than I am as a player. <a href="mailto:Naie@Guk" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Naie@Guk</a> wrote: <blockquote>I keep hearing that people are saying Oh warden's are replacable but shamans aren't ! well, this may be true for a MT group scenario, but if someone in any other group was missing a healer We could fill that spot easily if losing a shaman or cleric breaks your raid there is something horribly wrong. </blockquote>Uhm yeah that is exactly the point. If the raid has no shaman and no cleric - then there isn't either in the MT group - it is a non starter for the highest KOS raid zones and any EoF raid zone. Once the MT group has a shaman and a cleric - any healer can fill out the healing needs. But that hardly makes warden's useful. Given a preference every other group would prefer another healer over a warden. I have never heard a group say boy I wish we had a warden - but take their respective dps buffing healer from them and there is a lot of whining. My MT likes having instinct on to help hit yellow and orange mobs - but they will go forward without it.Oh and on the singular utility of a warden with nature's walk and Treyloth - total bunk. Yeah it might be more convenient for the MT to have the benefit of not being rooted momentarily after a toss - but it doesn't protect from the toss only the post root. And BTW the most recent take down of Treyloth was without nature's walk in the MT group.... Nature's walk is useless - not just misdescribed - there is no must have need for nature's walk anywhere, less likely "most".

jka

03-12-2007, 06:00 AM

<cite>Rangequest wrote:</cite><blockquote> <a href="mailto:Naie@Guk" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Naie@Guk</a> wrote: <blockquote>I keep hearing that people are saying Oh warden's are replacable but shamans aren't ! well, this may be true for a MT group scenario, but if someone in any other group was missing a healer We could fill that spot easily if losing a shaman or cleric breaks your raid there is something horribly wrong. </blockquote>Uhm yeah that is exactly the point. If the raid has no shaman and no cleric - then there isn't either in the MT group - it is a non starter for the highest KOS raid zones and any EoF raid zone. Once the MT group has a shaman and a cleric - any healer can fill out the healing needs. But that hardly makes warden's useful. Given a preference every other group would prefer another healer over a warden. I have never heard a group say boy I wish we had a warden - but take their respective dps buffing healer from them and there is a lot of whining. My MT likes having instinct on to help hit yellow and orange mobs - but they will go forward without it.Oh and on the singular utility of a warden with nature's walk and Treyloth - total bunk. Yeah it might be more convenient for the MT to have the benefit of not being rooted momentarily after a toss - but it doesn't protect from the toss only the post root. And BTW the most recent take down of Treyloth was without nature's walk in the MT group.... Nature's walk is useless - not just misdescribed - there is no must have need for nature's walk anywhere, less likely "most".</blockquote>For basic healing then yes, any group would be happy for a warden except the concept with players who are min/maxing their class and group set ups then the bolded sentence above it true.I am the only warden and also 99 percent of the time in the mt group. When I am moved to other groups due to lack of healers being on. I am literally moved from mt group into the over flow group until enough log in. The raid will set up 3 solid and strong groups and the fourth group I would be put into even if it is only with one other person. During some fights when aoe posion cure is needed, I have actually been moved out of the mt group and replaced with a fury and moved into another group with a second fury. Raid felt is was better to build 3 solid groups by moving me instead of 4 with only one group posion curer. Sad fact when this happens.... I heal for this mob as the druid in mt all the time unless two furies are logged in and on raid. Nice slap to be moved and put literally in group with a second fury only because of a group cure. Now convince me how it can be stated outside of healing in groups besides mt group a warden is preferred or welcomed for a proper min/max raid with individuals who are capable of doing their jobs correctly. For the min/maxer dpser. A warden simply does not make these players shine. We remind them of what abilities they do not have and are not receiving and make raiding a chore instead of a joy by being the only healer in their group. Outside of the mt group, when players are min/maxing their classes then no, a warden is not a preferred choice in any way for many classes. Simple fact. Another simple fact. Yes we heal and we are very good healers. I think the warden class has been left behind the other healing classes when you compare what the healing classes have to offer besides healing on raids.With all that said. I do get a spot on raids and not just because I show up but because I am a solid and strong player. Hell I have even mt healed for MO with only a templar in group with me and the defiler who is a part time player was not in mt group. We did kill MO without a shaman in mt group. I was put in group because of my skills at the keyboard not my buffs on my toon.

Haffel

03-13-2007, 06:36 AM

So long story short, if wardens got just 1 more beneficial spell so they become a more wanted class in raids everyone would be glad ?I am currently only lvl 40 so i haven't been raiding but I do agree that it's important to have the feeling that you are contributing something to a raid in the long run. However what most fail to note (some do however) is the general play of wardens. If you read through this entire thread some people sound so dire, so dismayed and hatefilled towards their class that it is borderline despair and it really is some stupid babble half the time. Personally i think warden is an insanely fun class to play, both in solo and group play. On every forum i go i read the same, everyone loves their warden in groups and solo and think they are just fine. They also praise their warden through the sky in terms of taking down hard oponents both in pvp and pve - and every time i read it i agree, because i too believe our class is a good class and enjoy playing it. However, the above being true to the bone i still find these posts by people so much in despair because their class doesn't shine like a freakin' super nova in ONE aspect of the game and honestly it makes me boggle my tiny lil' brains out. What the heck ? I mean come on - our class is so well rounded in every other aspect, it's hardly that dire a matter as to create a post saying "OMG delete teh class already keke plz we suxx0r". Try toning it down a bit and being a bit more positive and open minded. As i stated in the opening of my post i do agree that wardens should have something that makes them feel wanted in a raid envioment , i am not disagreeing this but for the love of god stop making it sound like our class is complete and utter useless because it isn't. It is actually, for many people, the most fun and versatile class out there and I personally wouldn't trade it for any other class in the game. Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it - not much more to say cept cheer up and you might get your way sometime in the future but crying like a kid sure won't do a difference cept leave you in despair and drag others with you for no reason.

Barand

03-13-2007, 07:34 AM

<cite>jkamp wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Barandos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did your guild ever considered to raid cheldrak without a warden ? </blockquote> Yeah, I know more then one guild can raid Chel'Drak without a warden. </blockquote>I have to rephrase myself since everyone talk about cleric and shaman do you consider raiding cheldrak without druid ? And for your information, we succesfully raid most of the instance without a templar or an inqui, we can do well without a mystic or a defiler, what is difficult is to raid without atleast one of the archetype (druid / cleric / shaman). And druid maybe the one that feel the less important, but try and do a raid without any druid, you will see by yourself.

Nexiia

03-13-2007, 08:30 AM

Using Chel'Drak is a good idea...Okay, so , when this zone launched and people were just first trying it..Alot of the factors are coming down to the mob having been an orange con, and who is best to allow a target such as a tank to hit an orange con? Wardens. Now, ages later, the mob is nerfed to no end, as well as the majority of current raid AoE's etc.."Noob" guilds can kill mobs put in the game to challenge the best of the raiders, It isn't a matter of our class not being needed. Its a general lack of effort needed to defeat current content.Can you defeat Chel'Drak without a warden? Yes. Can you defeat Chel'Drak without a shaman? YesDoes this mean those classes aren't needed at all? No. Can we do things that other healers can't ? Yes However...This has nothing to do with classes themselves, more or less, that the content has been demolished to something that requires a whole lot less effort than previously. Don't care what you say about other classes being needed there is not a raid in the game that can't be done without any given healer. Are some more useful for certain things? Yes There are however things we are better at, and if you haven't found them yet, then your search requires more progress.If your guild hasn't ever said "Wish we had a warden for.." then You're doing something wrong. Should you be able to bring all wardens on a raid to win ? No If you tried that on the highest end content would you fail? Yes Should you be able to bring all shamans on a raid to win? No If you tried that on the highest end content would you fail? YesSame goes for templars...

Rangequest

03-13-2007, 11:20 AM

<cite>Haffelaf wrote:</cite><blockquote>So long story short, if wardens got just 1 more beneficial spell so they become a more wanted class in raids everyone would be glad ?I am currently only lvl 40 so i haven't been raiding but I do agree that it's important to have the feeling that you are contributing something to a raid in the long run. However what most fail to note (some do however) is the general play of wardens. If you read through this entire thread some people sound so dire, so dismayed and hatefilled towards their class that it is borderline despair and it really is some stupid babble half the time. Personally i think warden is an insanely fun class to play, both in solo and group play. On every forum i go i read the same, everyone loves their warden in groups and solo and think they are just fine. They also praise their warden through the sky in terms of taking down hard oponents both in pvp and pve - and every time i read it i agree, because i too believe our class is a good class and enjoy playing it. However, the above being true to the bone i still find these posts by people so much in despair because their class doesn't shine like a freakin' super nova in ONE aspect of the game and honestly it makes me boggle my tiny lil' brains out. What the heck ? I mean come on - our class is so well rounded in every other aspect, it's hardly that dire a matter as to create a post saying "OMG delete teh class already keke plz we suxx0r". Try toning it down a bit and being a bit more positive and open minded. As i stated in the opening of my post i do agree that wardens should have something that makes them feel wanted in a raid envioment , i am not disagreeing this but for the love of god stop making it sound like our class is complete and utter useless because it isn't. It is actually, for many people, the most fun and versatile class out there and I personally wouldn't trade it for any other class in the game. Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it - not much more to say cept cheer up and you might get your way sometime in the future but crying like a kid sure won't do a difference cept leave you in despair and drag others with you for no reason.</blockquote>You have no basis at this time to pass judgment on the content of the thread and you didn't even absorb the full content of it at any rate.Playing a warden through the leveling process is very fun and rewarding. Everyone that has played a warden for any length of time loves playing a warden solo and grouped that hasn't been denied in this thread. But look at the guilds that are full of alt wardens that were the first toon played and ultimately were alt'd in order to have a higher contributing main toon. They still love playing and grouping their warden but they don't want to raid them. These are people who have been here since before the first expansion - but by the time they capped KOS they dumped their wardens.Once you are level 70, have 100 AA, have mostly KOS and some EOF fabled gear, mostly mastered spells - then yes raiding is the ONLY aspect of the game, not just ONE. No where have I said we should be "super nova" in raids. I do think each class should have the opportunity to contribute at a comparable level.Regarding other posts on needing a druid vs needing a warden. Absolutely raids including Chel'drak need druids. But I am also aware of wardens on my server which have been dropped from chel'drak raids in order to bring another fury. Acolytes need dps - furies deliver dps not druids.This isn't even about a warden being "needed" on every or any raid - it is about being able to contribute to a level that they would at least be equally desired on the raid as other priest classes.I have talked with others that leveled and raided their wardens as mains at one point and they have all said there is nothing wrong with my game play and they are glad to have me on raids - but the class itself lacks utility. There is no EoF content that they would try without a fury or two - a druid is necessary and contributing - but they would go forward without a warden if I as the only main was not available.

jka

03-13-2007, 12:56 PM

Naie@Guk wrote: <blockquote>Using Chel'Drak is a good idea...Okay, so , when this zone launched and people were just first trying it..Alot of the factors are coming down to the mob having been an orange con, and who is best to allow a target such as a tank to hit an orange con? Wardens. Now, ages later, the mob is nerfed to no end, as well as the majority of current raid AoE's etc.."Noob" guilds can kill mobs put in the game to challenge the best of the raiders, It isn't a matter of our class not being needed. Its a general lack of effort needed to defeat current content.Can you defeat Chel'Drak without a warden? Yes. Can you defeat Chel'Drak without a shaman? YesDoes this mean those classes aren't needed at all? No. Can we do things that other healers can't ? Yes However...This has nothing to do with classes themselves, more or less, that the content has been demolished to something that requires a whole lot less effort than previously. Don't care what you say about other classes being needed there is not a raid in the game that can't be done without any given healer. Are some more useful for certain things? Yes There are however things we are better at, and if you haven't found them yet, then your search requires more progress.If your guild hasn't ever said "Wish we had a warden for.." then You're doing something wrong. Should you be able to bring all wardens on a raid to win ? No If you tried that on the highest end content would you fail? Yes Should you be able to bring all shamans on a raid to win? No If you tried that on the highest end content would you fail? YesSame goes for templars...</blockquote>I concur with many points made in this post. Using Chel'Drak as an example. My guild has been killing Chel'Drak for months and months now. Items which once sold high for dkp are now going for alts at min bid of dkp. When my guild first tried this zone and learned it. A druid class was wanted and preferred. Now being honest my guild can kill Chel'Drak with no druid in the raid. Now, with the fact that my guild can kill Chel'Drak without a druid, if either of the druids were online then yes we would receive a spot on the raid and no I would never be asked to sit out only because of my class on Chel'Drak or any other raid. I would receive a spot on a raid even over a "preferred" healer archtype but I am lucky kindof. I am a high play time serious minded raiding warden. Now if we had a second warden in my guild then the second warden would be asked to sit on many many raids. In my guild, if we are doing a zone with only 5 healers and I am in a group with the dps classes. Then in my guild my fellow guildies will whine about their dps. Not because of the skill I bring but because of the lack of benefit I bring to the dps classes. Now being honest with you all if the dps classes whine so much then my guild found a simple solution. We give the dps classes what they want. We put in another ulitity for the dps classes and move me into another group. Usually mt group. The dps classes would then have no healers for the raid in their group. I know I am lucky in many ways with my guild. I really enjoy playing my warden and enjoy raiding with my warden. I also know over time I have proven myself to my fellow guildies and will never be asked to sit only because of my class. With all that said. I do wish I had one buff which enabled me to enjoy a dps group without hearing them complain about their lack of dps on raids. Now before anyone reminds me of primative instinct. I know we have that buff. Yes scout classes will ask for it but moreso in tells. I also know I would never be asked to be moved from one dps group into another just for the primative instinct spell.I know my guild has a healer template in mind for raiding. One of each subclass is the preferred healer list for raids. I also know if we had 2 furies I would not be asked to sit out for the second fury. Over time in the end I have made the best of my class that I could. There is no zones I could not solo heal including MMC for grouping. The warden class just lacks a wee bit of true direction being defined by the dev team. I do believe with many of the healing archtypes a good understanding of the class is defined and a balance for these archtype healers has been achieved. I do feel as if the warden class could use a bit more direction when being developed. Being honest with you all I think that mystics and inquistors are also lacking incomparison to the other 3 healer archtypes. With have in the end 3 healer archtypes which are pretty darn balanced and 3 classes with are lacking in direction and being defined a bit. But even with all that said. I am proud that my main is a warden and I do not plan on chaging my main. As for the dps classes who whine... they sure don't whine when I heal them.