Paladin Updates

[Twsly76]

<p>There are alot of rumors of the paladin getting a make over. I have looked and can find no info on this. Also, I went down the Hero Tree and Got Blocking mastery, Then turned it off. I don't notice a differance. Has anybody else noticed this </p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Twsly76 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There are alot of rumors of the paladin getting a make over. I have looked and can find no info on this. Also, I went down the Hero Tree and Got Blocking mastery, Then turned it off. I don't notice a differance. Has anybody else noticed this </p></blockquote> First off if we got or are getting a make over it would be all over the forums, i dont see that happening being there isnt major problems, we just need minor twinks, 2nd. if you raid high end you will see that block does make a difference, its worth the points spent imo.

[Crib92]

<p>There is a change coming although I don't know how much of a change it will be.  (Don't play test)  They are increasing the auto attack damage for Paladins and Guardians.</p>

[Arraza]

lol... brilliant!  Increase the autoattack damage for the paladin... um wait, isn't 90% of my damage CA and spell based?

[Crib92]

<p>Here is the quote:</p><p><b>*** Classes & General Combat***</b></p><p>Dirge: Increased weapon autoattack damage to match Rogue tables.</p><p>Troubador: Increased weapon autoattack damage to match Rogue tables.</p><p>Guardian: Increased weapon autoattack damage to match all other Fighters tables.</p><p>Paladin: Increased weapon autoattack damage to match all other Fighters tables.</p>

[Nevar]

<p>90% from spells and Cas? Really? Man I auto attack for about 1k dps I start using spells and such my dps drops. What kinda of grp are you in usually? My grp usually consists of Me, dirge,temp,mystic,zerker and swash. With my 1h axe I pretty much own the auto attack dmg.</p><p>I bet that auto attack increase will be extremely small lol probably wont be able to notice it</p>

[prayerwarrior]

the changes won;t make a diff we need adoivdence changes.

[OrcSlayer96]

<cite>Nevarer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>90% from spells and Cas? Really? Man I auto attack for about 1k dps I start using spells and such my dps drops. What kinda of grp are you in usually? My grp usually consists of Me, dirge,temp,mystic,zerker and swash. With my 1h axe I pretty much own the auto attack dmg.</p><p>I bet that auto attack increase will be extremely small lol probably wont be able to notice it</p></blockquote><p>Have to agree with ya mostly on that Itoock.  On parses, when i am in a offtank or DPS group i see at least 45% of my damage coming from autoattack in defense mode with sword and shield.  Usually i try to be in offensive mode with a two hander and my normal autoattack is then at least 60% of my damage.  I would really like to know why there was a differance in autoattack damage in the first place between fighters.  If two seperate fighter classes have identical strength and identical weapons they are using there should not be a difference in auto attack damage.  Makes me wonder what the reasoning was in the first place.  For Game Update 32, I am looking more to the AA changes in KOS line, Unrest opening, 6 new Lore & Legends and respec decay to help me than them "fixing" our auto attack damage.  But, I will admit that i spec my paladin quite abit differently than the mainstream paladins posting on the boards.  The main thing to keep in sight for our class, is that no matter what spec/role you are playing, never forget to maximize your tanking skills first and look at picking up items to help you in dps and healing/support second.  </p><p>I agree it would be nice to see a improvement on our defense stance, as it is now we are penalized to a degree for needing the power granted from the wisdom bonus to offset the power bonus in offense from strength.  They setup our class to use power hungy spells to supplement our tanking then say you cant have parry on your defense stance because we gave you wisdom.  I truely wish they would look at our defense stance and toss in additional block % to make us masters of blocking attacks.  Nothing overpowered but 1% for app1-adept 1, 2% for adept 3, and 3% for master 1, would go a long way to help us on all forms of our tanking(solo/group/low end raid and high end raid).  Changing our Sacrament line from a slow poke casting heal to a ward would give us the intial up front damage absorbtion to buy us a sec or 2 on hard hitting mobs to be debuffed.  How many times have I started this heal to see a much quicker casting heal land on me or the mob interupt it multiple times.  Change it to a self ward with duration similar to our devotion line and stackable to devotion and it becomes a much better tool for us.  My opinion is that sacrament as a ward > than sacrament as a heal.  Those two things and beefing up lay on hands to be a percentage heal based on the caster(instead of static heal that become less useful as you become buffed up) are the main tweaks i would like to see to our class.  </p><p>When GU 32 hits i redo my AA to be Full STA/WIS line, after many months of viewing posts, i am making the dive to try out divine aura and fearless morale.  I use to be STA and INT specced for max crits and increase health pool, but the skill bonus in the wisdom line is really showing up in the parses.  My to hit has raised up around 10% on yellow and above mobs, my power cost on heals/wards has dropped 10-25 points, and fellow group mates in and out of raid have been seeing better dps and power consumption.  The health regen is about useless but i would like to see the fearless morale fear immunity coupled with the 1% increase/decrease to everything.  I respecced to a limited degree to wisdom last week using my free respec to wean myself from crit withdrawel(going from 68% down to 3% is heavy hit).  </p>

[Arraza]

<cite>Nevarer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>90% from spells and Cas? Really? Man I auto attack for about 1k dps I start using spells and such my dps drops. What kinda of grp are you in usually? My grp usually consists of Me, dirge,temp,mystic,zerker and swash. With my 1h axe I pretty much own the auto attack dmg.</p><p>I bet that auto attack increase will be extremely small lol probably wont be able to notice it</p></blockquote><p> Interesting... I'm usually going all out spells and CA's and only autoattack to start and when my timers are down.  I use Rakleko as my two hander when I am not OTing, and my strength and int are both typically in the high 500s low 600s.  I'll switch to wyrmslayer when facing the appropriate mobs.  If I'm mting or oting or whatever I'll have QG and Adamantine doomhammer (or one hand wyrmslayer) for the hammer ae in the STA line and typically lose 200-400dps.</p><p>I'm specced wrath and sta/int for both crits.  Autoattacking only usually does about 700-800dps for mein raids, when I go all out ca and spells on a single mob I typically do 1000-1200, and on groups of two or 3 I hit 1400-1800.  Hit an all time high in labs on the doomwright group last week of 19xx.</p><p> I'm typically in the top 10, and very often the top 5 on all out fights that are grouped.</p><p> My group changes so much, I usually don't get the same folks, but I do typically have a warden or fury and most of the time a dirge and an illusionist.</p><p>When I'm solo, if I autoattack I end up in the 300-400 range, if I go all out I end up doing 700-800.</p>

[Arraza]

<cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nevarer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>90% from spells and Cas? Really? Man I auto attack for about 1k dps I start using spells and such my dps drops. What kinda of grp are you in usually? My grp usually consists of Me, dirge,temp,mystic,zerker and swash. With my 1h axe I pretty much own the auto attack dmg.</p><p>I bet that auto attack increase will be extremely small lol probably wont be able to notice it</p></blockquote><p>Have to agree with ya mostly on that Itoock.  On parses, when i am in a offtank or DPS group i see at least 45% of my damage coming from autoattack in defense mode with sword and shield.  Usually i try to be in offensive mode with a two hander and my normal autoattack is then at least 60% of my damage.  I would really like to know why there was a differance in autoattack damage in the first place between fighters.  If two seperate fighter classes have identical strength and identical weapons they are using there should not be a difference in auto attack damage.  Makes me wonder what the reasoning was in the first place.  For Game Update 32, I am looking more to the AA changes in KOS line, Unrest opening, 6 new Lore & Legends and respec decay to help me than them "fixing" our auto attack damage.  But, I will admit that i spec my paladin quite abit differently than the mainstream paladins posting on the boards.  The main thing to keep in sight for our class, is that no matter what spec/role you are playing, never forget to maximize your tanking skills first and look at picking up items to help you in dps and healing/support second.  </p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">Hmmm... interesting.  I disagree... I think the wrath line is a prime example of a line that doesn't look like a prime tanking line, but is actually one in disguise.  The wrath line has added a decent amount to my dps, ESPECIALLY when dealing with groups of mobs (which lets face it is a large majority of raid and group encounters).  Because of the wrath line I can hold agro on mobs even without amends on... lately I have even been forgetting to put it on because I hold agro so well without it.  In groups, I am dpsing with or outdpsing many of my very well equipped and played guildies that are traditional dps classes.  I was duing with my guilds assassing the other day (top raid parser) and was holding agro with no amends and no taunts, and he only got agro on decapitate, which was fixed by casting a single taunt.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">I also think that there is a need to look for both types of gear.  People laugh at me when I say i need to swap out gear for DPS or tanking, but I have different shoulders, head, jewelry for each mode.  Depending on what I am doing I will be using a combo of this gear, if its an instance I'll use a combination of the dps / tank gear since they are cake and the quicker we can burn through it the better, if its a raid ill swap out all tank gear if mt or ot, or if i dps its all dps gear.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">Our taunts really don't add that much hate, but combine amends, with adding xxxdps thats an additional xxx hate gain per second and thats critical.</span></p><p>I agree it would be nice to see a improvement on our defense stance, as it is now we are penalized to a degree for needing the power granted from the wisdom bonus to offset the power bonus in offense from strength.  They setup our class to use power hungy spells to supplement our tanking then say you cant have parry on your defense stance because we gave you wisdom.  I truely wish they would look at our defense stance and toss in additional block % to make us masters of blocking attacks.  Nothing overpowered but 1% for app1-adept 1, 2% for adept 3, and 3% for master 1, would go a long way to help us on all forms of our tanking(solo/group/low end raid and high end raid).  Changing our Sacrament line from a slow poke casting heal to a ward would give us the intial up front damage absorbtion to buy us a sec or 2 on hard hitting mobs to be debuffed.  How many times have I started this heal to see a much quicker casting heal land on me or the mob interupt it multiple times.  Change it to a self ward with duration similar to our devotion line and stackable to devotion and it becomes a much better tool for us.  My opinion is that sacrament as a ward > than sacrament as a heal.  Those two things and beefing up lay on hands to be a percentage heal based on the caster(instead of static heal that become less useful as you become buffed up) are the main tweaks i would like to see to our class.  </p><p>When GU 32 hits i redo my AA to be Full STA/WIS line, after many months of viewing posts, i am making the dive to try out divine aura and fearless morale.  I use to be STA and INT specced for max crits and increase health pool, but the skill bonus in the wisdom line is really showing up in the parses.  My to hit has raised up around 10% on yellow and above mobs, my power cost on heals/wards has dropped 10-25 points, and fellow group mates in and out of raid have been seeing better dps and power consumption.  The health regen is about useless but i would like to see the fearless morale fear immunity coupled with the 1% increase/decrease to everything.  I respecced to a limited degree to wisdom last week using my free respec to wean myself from crit withdrawel(going from 68% down to 3% is heavy hit).</p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">With this change it will be interesting to see how it goes, but I don't think I will be switching from crits... I also think that crits end up building hate for you as well... I can't confirm the mechanics but I think besides just the dps that the crit itself increases hate.  The reason I say this is because I typically have the highest crit rate in raids (usually 1500+ crits a night) and end up having to hold back some to keep the mobs off me alot.</span></p></blockquote>

[OrcSlayer96]

<cite>Arraza wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nevarer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>90% from spells and Cas? Really? Man I auto attack for about 1k dps I start using spells and such my dps drops. What kinda of grp are you in usually? My grp usually consists of Me, dirge,temp,mystic,zerker and swash. With my 1h axe I pretty much own the auto attack dmg.</p><p>I bet that auto attack increase will be extremely small lol probably wont be able to notice it</p></blockquote><p>Have to agree with ya mostly on that Itoock.  On parses, when i am in a offtank or DPS group i see at least 45% of my damage coming from autoattack in defense mode with sword and shield.  Usually i try to be in offensive mode with a two hander and my normal autoattack is then at least 60% of my damage.  I would really like to know why there was a differance in autoattack damage in the first place between fighters.  If two seperate fighter classes have identical strength and identical weapons they are using there should not be a difference in auto attack damage.  Makes me wonder what the reasoning was in the first place.  For Game Update 32, I am looking more to the AA changes in KOS line, Unrest opening, 6 new Lore & Legends and respec decay to help me than them "fixing" our auto attack damage.  But, I will admit that i spec my paladin quite abit differently than the mainstream paladins posting on the boards.  The main thing to keep in sight for our class, is that no matter what spec/role you are playing, never forget to maximize your tanking skills first and look at picking up items to help you in dps and healing/support second.  </p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">Hmmm... interesting.  I disagree... I think the wrath line is a prime example of a line that doesn't look like a prime tanking line, but is actually one in disguise.  The wrath line has added a decent amount to my dps, ESPECIALLY when dealing with groups of mobs (which lets face it is a large majority of raid and group encounters).  Because of the wrath line I can hold agro on mobs even without amends on... lately I have even been forgetting to put it on because I hold agro so well without it.  In groups, I am dpsing with or outdpsing many of my very well equipped and played guildies that are traditional dps classes.  I was duing with my guilds assassing the other day (top raid parser) and was holding agro with no amends and no taunts, and he only got agro on decapitate, which was fixed by casting a single taunt.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">I also think that there is a need to look for both types of gear.  People laugh at me when I say i need to swap out gear for DPS or tanking, but I have different shoulders, head, jewelry for each mode.  Depending on what I am doing I will be using a combo of this gear, if its an instance I'll use a combination of the dps / tank gear since they are cake and the quicker we can burn through it the better, if its a raid ill swap out all tank gear if mt or ot, or if i dps its all dps gear.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">Our taunts really don't add that much hate, but combine amends, with adding xxxdps thats an additional xxx hate gain per second and thats critical.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00">I agree, the wrath line is a very nice line for DPS, and it will help you hold agro with the whole 1 damage equals 1 hate factor tossed in.  But going against tough mobs, all the dps enhancements in the world will mean squat if you are dead in 2 hits.  The whole point of the hero line is maximize your survival from incoming mob damage.  Be it the 60% increase in our self only health buff or the 224-294 lifetap from condemnation line or the 24% boost to block on the end line ability, it is all tied to either take a hit better or avoid the hit.  Wrath line is a excellent line to look at to enhance holding agro and increasing damage for us, but it will not save you from melee attacks and aoes.  Those that don't see the benefit of blocking mastery are not tackling tough enough mobs to see clearly the benefit.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00">On our taunts, i agree, by themselves we wouldnt be able to hold agro, that is why we have both amends and sigil.  At least on the group taunt and shield block we have extras tied into the taunt that make it nice for the extra hate gain.  I am with you on the gear tho, i have defense gear, max mit gear, offense gear, resist pieces and a whole wardrobe of flowing thought items.  Had to rearrange my containers to make it easier to switch out the gear...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p>I agree it would be nice to see a improvement on our defense stance, as it is now we are penalized to a degree for needing the power granted from the wisdom bonus to offset the power bonus in offense from strength.  They setup our class to use power hungy spells to supplement our tanking then say you cant have parry on your defense stance because we gave you wisdom.  I truely wish they would look at our defense stance and toss in additional block % to make us masters of blocking attacks.  Nothing overpowered but 1% for app1-adept 1, 2% for adept 3, and 3% for master 1, would go a long way to help us on all forms of our tanking(solo/group/low end raid and high end raid).  Changing our Sacrament line from a slow poke casting heal to a ward would give us the intial up front damage absorbtion to buy us a sec or 2 on hard hitting mobs to be debuffed.  How many times have I started this heal to see a much quicker casting heal land on me or the mob interupt it multiple times.  Change it to a self ward with duration similar to our devotion line and stackable to devotion and it becomes a much better tool for us.  My opinion is that sacrament as a ward > than sacrament as a heal.  Those two things and beefing up lay on hands to be a percentage heal based on the caster(instead of static heal that become less useful as you become buffed up) are the main tweaks i would like to see to our class.  </p><p>When GU 32 hits i redo my AA to be Full STA/WIS line, after many months of viewing posts, i am making the dive to try out divine aura and fearless morale.  I use to be STA and INT specced for max crits and increase health pool, but the skill bonus in the wisdom line is really showing up in the parses.  My to hit has raised up around 10% on yellow and above mobs, my power cost on heals/wards has dropped 10-25 points, and fellow group mates in and out of raid have been seeing better dps and power consumption.  The health regen is about useless but i would like to see the fearless morale fear immunity coupled with the 1% increase/decrease to everything.  I respecced to a limited degree to wisdom last week using my free respec to wean myself from crit withdrawel(going from 68% down to 3% is heavy hit).</p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">With this change it will be interesting to see how it goes, but I don't think I will be switching from crits... I also think that crits end up building hate for you as well... I can't confirm the mechanics but I think besides just the dps that the crit itself increases hate.  The reason I say this is because I typically have the highest crit rate in raids (usually 1500+ crits a night) and end up having to hold back some to keep the mobs off me alot.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00">I agree that the crits help out on hate generation, how could they not, a 30 % increase to the spell damage is 30% direct hate generated for you, and if you are critting 70% of the time that can add up, especially when you fire off a salvo of AOES on mobs.  For me, agro is not a issue with the setup of groups/raids, i am trying out the wisdom line to se how much better i can enhance my other 5 players in my group, versus only increasing my dps/heal power.  So far i am impressed with the skill bonus increase and how it is effecting yellow mobs and long fights.  The whole point for being on a raid for me is raid usefulness.  What is incresing my dps 200-300 dps, to increasing a wizard, warlock,swashbuckler, ranger and so on on their dps my reducing their misses and resists?  In long battles is the power consumption saved my raising healers ministration a asset versus not having it?  When GU 32 hits, having 1% to virtually everything in the group(casting time reduction recast eduction, damage done, heals increased and so on..)better than crits?  Having immunity to fear for initial pulls to help the mt out help the raid, especially on sub bosses?  I wish i had definite answers to these right now, but that is why i respecced, to try out these AA's now in the the current game mechanic and see if they are a larger asset to MY GUILD.  That is what it boils down to for our class, there are some AA's and gear/spells that every paladin should have, but how your raid/guild is formed can reflect alot on how you should choose your paladin spec.</span></p></blockquote> </blockquote>

[Arraza]

<cite>Nevarer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>90% from spells and Cas? Really? Man I auto attack for about 1k dps I start using spells and such my dps drops. What kinda of grp are you in usually? My grp usually consists of Me, dirge,temp,mystic,zerker and swash. With my 1h axe I pretty much own the auto attack dmg.</p><p>I bet that auto attack increase will be extremely small lol probably wont be able to notice it</p></blockquote><p>Ok heres some breakdown from the past few raids (ext dps, full zone).  Sorry it was all nice and formatted in columns, but the forums fought me until i gave up and settled on this format... tougher to read sorry.  I exagerated the 90% to make a point, but as you can see, for me at least melee ranges between 20-30% and non melee 70-80%:</p><p>Labs (24% melee, 76% other) :</p><p>Type Damage DPS Average Min Hit Max Hit Hits CritHits Swings Avg Dly </p><p>Melee (Out) 307711 217.93 850.03 0 2044 362 95 532 2.65 </p><p>Non-Melee (Out) 1193424 678.08 632.45 91 4145 1887 958 1996 0.88</p><p>HoS (29% melee, 71% other) </p><p>Type Damage DPS Average Min Hit Max Hit Hits CritHits Swings Avg Dly </p><p>Melee (Out) 570372 220.48 429.17 112 1607 1329 317 1680 1.54 </p><p>Non-Melee (Out) 1596797 523.54 722.53 49 4185 2210 1055 2258 1.35</p><p>DT (21% melee, 78% other):</p><p>Type Damage DPS Average Min Hit Max Hit Hits CritHits Swings Avg Dly </p><p>Melee (Out) 388886 178.31 749.30 129 1916 519 160 790 2.76 </p><p>Non-Melee (Out) 1886684 672.37 767.57 17 4361 2458 1373 2653 1.06</p>

[Mgunner]

<p>I rely heavily on auto attack damage. I use Vrak club with 4.0 delay and usually only hit CA's between swings. With melee crits and high DPS buffs, I'll crit for over 5k. </p><p> With the change, I'm not expecting much of an increase. I would like to see small changes to other areas. Definately not needing a complete over haul.</p>

[Arraza]

<cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Arraza wrote: <blockquote><blockquote><span style="color: #0000ff">With this change it will be interesting to see how it goes, but I don't think I will be switching from crits... I also think that crits end up building hate for you as well... I can't confirm the mechanics but I think besides just the dps that the crit itself increases hate.  The reason I say this is because I typically have the highest crit rate in raids (usually 1500+ crits a night) and end up having to hold back some to keep the mobs off me alot.</span> <p><span style="color: #ffcc00">I agree that the crits help out on hate generation, how could they not, a 30 % increase to the spell damage is 30% direct hate generated for you, and if you are critting 70% of the time that can add up, especially when you fire off a salvo of AOES on mobs.  For me, agro is not a issue with the setup of groups/raids, i am trying out the wisdom line to se how much better i can enhance my other 5 players in my group, versus only increasing my dps/heal power.  So far i am impressed with the skill bonus increase and how it is effecting yellow mobs and long fights.  The whole point for being on a raid for me is raid usefulness.  What is incresing my dps 200-300 dps, to increasing a wizard, warlock,swashbuckler, ranger and so on on their dps my reducing their misses and resists?  In long battles is the power consumption saved my raising healers ministration a asset versus not having it?  When GU 32 hits, having 1% to virtually everything in the group(casting time reduction recast eduction, damage done, heals increased and so on..)better than crits?  Having immunity to fear for initial pulls to help the mt out help the raid, especially on sub bosses?  I wish i had definite answers to these right now, but that is why i respecced, to try out these AA's now in the the current game mechanic and see if they are a larger asset to MY GUILD.  That is what it boils down to for our class, there are some AA's and gear/spells that every paladin should have, but how your raid/guild is formed can reflect alot on how you should choose your paladin spec.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">Wow... this new quoting this is so weird.  I chopped to save everyone the pain of tracking... lol.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">I am planning the wrath line and the hero line.  I just hit 93 AA, and will respec soon to take both the wrath and the hero now that I can.  Smite Evil is too good to give up, its the biggest portion of my damage and of course the block is critical as well.  With the KoS lines, I'm still torn.  While the wisdom line does add benefit to a group, and I do raid alot, I'd have trouble giving up what I need to solo and do group stuff just for the one group buff that the benefit of might be nullified by having another member in the group (warden for example).</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">All in all its a personal choice, and a tough one. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p></blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote>

[Twsly76]

OMG, this is awesome. I have learned so much.. Awesome post guys. I from my play experiance, am a 69.5 Fae pally with 80 aa, I lack in str Obviously. So I have went down the Str AA and STM AA. After looking at the best of the best and best in class all the top Paladin go Stm and Int. However there barbairuns. I know that while raiding, a paladin typically plays a different role then while grouping. IMO. So do you all respect alot for different occasions. Right now I am all hero and started down the Healing to reduce casting time, and like I said other are in str and Stm. To me the added hit points are needed and can always help. As for the str, it raises attack and you will hit harder also you get the increase in hate ability. I would like the healing crits on raids but I don't like having to respec every time I go on a raid.

[hawsecav19d]

<p>I am giving serious reconsideration to dopping Int line with new AA changes and increased melee damage we getting on LU32.</p><p>Want to go 1 opener 4/4/5/8/2 Str 4/4/8/8/2 Sta Will the extra 10% hate and being able to cast all my spells 10% faster negate the loss of extra 30% damage agro that spell crits give.  Anyway worst case is wait a month spend 10g to respec again.</p>

[KaelVolorus]

If all they're doing is bringing it in-line with warrior tables, it will be a 5-6% auto attack increase. About 10-20dps solo and 30-50dps raid buffed. Nothing to sneeze at, but nothing game changing.

[Arraza]

<cite>hawsecav19d wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am giving serious reconsideration to dopping Int line with new AA changes and increased melee damage we getting on LU32.</p><p>Want to go 1 opener 4/4/5/8/2 Str 4/4/8/8/2 Sta Will the extra 10% hate and being able to cast all my spells 10% faster negate the loss of extra 30% damage agro that spell crits give.  Anyway worst case is wait a month spend 10g to respec again.</p></blockquote><p> I don't know.. I'm still not sure I want to give up those spell crits.  I'd probably give up the melee crits over the spell crits, but the rest of the stamina line is too good...</p><p>What I really hate is that we have to spend 4 points in a specialized weapon skill that sucks... I wish we could avoid having to do that... I never have a symbol in my offhand, and I find switching it for the tiny damage potential isnt worth it.</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

<cite>Arraza wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hawsecav19d wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am giving serious reconsideration to dopping Int line with new AA changes and increased melee damage we getting on LU32.</p><p>Want to go 1 opener 4/4/5/8/2 Str 4/4/8/8/2 Sta Will the extra 10% hate and being able to cast all my spells 10% faster negate the loss of extra 30% damage agro that spell crits give.  Anyway worst case is wait a month spend 10g to respec again.</p></blockquote><p> I don't know.. I'm still not sure I want to give up those spell crits.  I'd probably give up the melee crits over the spell crits, but the rest of the stamina line is too good...</p><p>What I really hate is that we have to spend 4 points in a specialized weapon skill that sucks... I wish we could avoid having to do that... I never have a symbol in my offhand, and I find switching it for the tiny damage potential isnt worth it.</p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00">After our discussion earlier Arraza, i had some time last night to look at spell/heal crits and compare it to our knowledge book to see what our abilities are classified as damage spells and what are classified as combat arts.   As has been discussed in other threads, any combat art uses your melee crit percentage to figure your chance to crit on the combat art.  Spell crit percentage effects our damage spells and the chance to crit on any proccing gear or buffs applied to us.  Combat arts that have multiple items to it like righteous condemnation are a little grey to figure out, it is a combat art that has a heal proc on it, but i beleive the chance to crit the heal portion is based on your heal crit %.  Normally your combat arts will not be interrupted if you move while casting, while your spells will.  It is funny that when we say we 6 AOES, most assume that they are all spells, but that is not the case.  Hopefully that stays that way, labeling abilities like Holy Circle as a combat art makes it to where your melee crit% is factored on if it will crit and you dont have to worry about movement autointerrupting the ability.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00">Having abilities that do damage plus heal is some of the best things we have in our arsenal.  Sure, righteous condemnation and Holy Circle will not keep the group or yourself healed up, but you would be suprised how much it contributes on raids by the end of the run.  Plus it allows you to still dps and see yourself on the healing chart.  Already from 1 week of switching over from int to wis line, i see a drop in both my healing and spell damage(or non melee in ACT terms, heheh).  On the plus side of wis line, tho, i have seen the same group with more to hit percent, less resists and charms and mezzes that seem to be sticking better.  Healers seem to be liking the reduced cost to their healing spells and debuffs are not being resisted as much.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00">For a comparision, i looked at prayer of conviction(our most power hungry group heal) and at it's base description, it costs 298 power to cast.  With the AA choices i went down i did not put any into the group heal power reduction but i looked at the power cost after casting the wisdom skill increaser.  Adding 34 ministration, putting my skill at 384 reduce the power cost from 298 to 279.  I then added a signet of light and darkness that gives +5 ministration, and it dropped from 279 to 276 power.  So with a combined 39 ministration, i recieved a reduction of 22 power on prayer of conviction.  Hopefully when i get home tonight i can post more results on ministration(will be with a warden and defiler).</span></p></blockquote>

[Nevar]

I do about 1k dps maybe a little higher maybe a little lower with 98% melee dmg. My 1h axe owns with dps buffs I hit for around 3-4k on average. Spells suck, I rarely cast them unless its a big grp or im ranging.

[Arraza]

<cite>Nevarer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do about 1k dps maybe a little higher maybe a little lower with 98% melee dmg. My 1h axe owns with dps buffs I hit for around 3-4k on average. Spells suck, I rarely cast them unless its a big grp or im ranging.</blockquote><p> Is that ext dps and is that your raid wide average?  I'm typically doing more, but over the course of a raid the average is of course lowered because of rezes, heals, whatever.</p><p>What's your axe and your str?  That's insane hitting for 3-4k...</p>

[Nevar]

Axe of natural order has a range of 60-300 4s delay. I haste it down on average to 2.2 so I swing alot. My str is usually 850+ i raid when I go offensive. Im grped with alot of str buffers for the most part, mystic, zerk, dirge. I have alot of dps procing stuff aswell. Underworld pants, acrylia ring, beserk, dirge dps buff. Usually above 100% when everythings proced.

[Arraza]

<cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arraza wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hawsecav19d wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am giving serious reconsideration to dopping Int line with new AA changes and increased melee damage we getting on LU32.</p><p>Want to go 1 opener 4/4/5/8/2 Str 4/4/8/8/2 Sta Will the extra 10% hate and being able to cast all my spells 10% faster negate the loss of extra 30% damage agro that spell crits give.  Anyway worst case is wait a month spend 10g to respec again.</p></blockquote><p> I don't know.. I'm still not sure I want to give up those spell crits.  I'd probably give up the melee crits over the spell crits, but the rest of the stamina line is too good...</p><p>What I really hate is that we have to spend 4 points in a specialized weapon skill that sucks... I wish we could avoid having to do that... I never have a symbol in my offhand, and I find switching it for the tiny damage potential isnt worth it.</p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00">After our discussion earlier Arraza, i had some time last night to look at spell/heal crits and compare it to our knowledge book to see what our abilities are classified as damage spells and what are classified as combat arts.   As has been discussed in other threads, any combat art uses your melee crit percentage to figure your chance to crit on the combat art.  Spell crit percentage effects our damage spells and the chance to crit on any proccing gear or buffs applied to us.  Combat arts that have multiple items to it like righteous condemnation are a little grey to figure out, it is a combat art that has a heal proc on it, but i beleive the chance to crit the heal portion is based on your heal crit %.  Normally your combat arts will not be interrupted if you move while casting, while your spells will.  It is funny that when we say we 6 AOES, most assume that they are all spells, but that is not the case.  Hopefully that stays that way, labeling abilities like Holy Circle as a combat art makes it to where your melee crit% is factored on if it will crit and you dont have to worry about movement autointerrupting the ability.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">Things would certainly be easier if all of our abilities were CA's, that would make the spell crits a no-brainer.. hehe.  But some of our biggest ae's are spells... Relentless conviction, Smite Evil, Consecrate you start criting on groups with these and the difference is HUGE.  I could swear that brimstone is criting as a spell since it crits so much, but I can cast it on the move so I think its a CA without being in game to find out.  So those AEs, combined with our procs from our buffs (which count as spells) and procing gear  like boneclasped girdle and Signet of Light from Darkness, and weapon procs... all add up to a significant amount of damage.  Weird though I could swear that Holy Circle cancels anytime i move.. so I thought it was a spell... but I must be misremembering.  All that being said I think your right, I wouldn't give up the melee crits because of the cas.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00">Having abilities that do damage plus heal is some of the best things we have in our arsenal.  Sure, righteous condemnation and Holy Circle will not keep the group or yourself healed up, but you would be suprised how much it contributes on raids by the end of the run.  Plus it allows you to still dps and see yourself on the healing chart.  Already from 1 week of switching over from int to wis line, i see a drop in both my healing and spell damage(or non melee in ACT terms, heheh).  On the plus side of wis line, tho, i have seen the same group with more to hit percent, less resists and charms and mezzes that seem to be sticking better.  Healers seem to be liking the reduced cost to their healing spells and debuffs are not being resisted as much.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">It would be real interesting to do a repeated same group through the same instance and switch out lines and see what the result is.  My concern is that yes, the group is hitting more but how much does it add... so for instance I lose 300dps because I take out the INT line, and each melee member of my group gains 25dps from the +to hit, say we are melee heavy group and have 4 melee people in it thats only a +100, and a net loss of -200.  For me the healers I group with tend not to have trouble with power, only times we struggle are with major raid nameds... in that case I could see a benefit for the healer / healers in my group but I'd really have to see the detailed numbers of how much it saves them... especialy if there is a +ministration curve where you see diminishing returns.  Additionally, with so many FT items in game, and illus and bard +mana regen we don't run into power issues much...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00">For a comparision, i looked at prayer of conviction(our most power hungry group heal) and at it's base description, it costs 298 power to cast.  With the AA choices i went down i did not put any into the group heal power reduction but i looked at the power cost after casting the wisdom skill increaser.  Adding 34 ministration, putting my skill at 384 reduce the power cost from 298 to 279.  I then added a signet of light and darkness that gives +5 ministration, and it dropped from 279 to 276 power.  So with a combined 39 ministration, i recieved a reduction of 22 power on prayer of conviction.  Hopefully when i get home tonight i can post more results on ministration(will be with a warden and defiler).</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff">I'd really like to those numbers... It will be curious to see how much much power they save per spell, and how many times they cast that over the course of combat for a total return on how much it saves them.</span></p></blockquote> </blockquote>

[Arraza]

<cite>Nevarer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Axe of natural order has a range of 60-300 4s delay. I haste it down on average to 2.2 so I swing alot. My str is usually 850+ i raid when I go offensive. Im grped with alot of str buffers for the most part, mystic, zerk, dirge. I have alot of dps procing stuff aswell. Underworld pants, acrylia ring, beserk, dirge dps buff. Usually above 100% when everythings proced.</blockquote><p>This is interesting because my damage is pretty even across the board regardless of what group I am in... though it does go significantly higher when I'm in a group with a dirge but not typically in a group with a berserk.  When I gear up for "dps" I use this gear...</p><p>Inrtrepid soul helm (+int)</p><p>Marr's cloak (just got cloak of flames last night so don't have any numbers on it yet)</p><p>kyle bayle shoulders (+str, +int)</p><p>cuirass of shadowfire (+str, +int)</p><p>vambraces of impiety (+ disruption and subjugation)</p><p>intrepid soul gauntlets (+slashing)</p><p>intrepid soul greaves (spell reduction)</p><p>tonlets of the high priestess (not sure why... lol)</p><p>moa</p><p>char procing earing (+int and proc)</p><p>another earring (+str, +int)</p><p>Signet of light from darkness (+str, int, and proc)</p><p>ring (+int, +str)</p><p>DT bracelet reward (haste, str, int)</p><p>Dragonscale bracelet (str, int)</p><p>bone clasped girdle (str, int, proc)</p><p>Small carving of aaryonar (+disruption and subjegation, +int, +str)</p><p>rukleko (+int, +str, proc)</p><p>and two +int hex dolls </p><p>So regardless of what group I am in I have 500+ str, and high 400 int in offensive stance.</p>

[Valphine]

<cite>Twsly76 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There are alot of rumors of the paladin getting a make over. I have looked and can find no info on this. Also, I went down the Hero Tree and Got Blocking mastery, Then turned it off. I don't notice a differance. Has anybody else noticed this </p></blockquote>4 or 5 % more in avodiance it does. Seams in your case its bugged or something.

[Kaleyen]

In regards to the Wisdom line, on raids my group mates have said that they have really noticed an increase with me going down the WIS line.  Personally I'd love to give it up to go down the STA line or STR line, but since when raiding it's not about what I want and about the raid I keep the WIS line. The in combat regen is nice for PvP I must add too.

[Vulkan_NTooki]

Underworld legplates and acrylia ring of strength provide 62 dps almost entire fights..

[Kaleyen]

And regarding GU32...any boost for us is a great thing...an awesome thing. I know I'm looking forward to Wednesday.

[Valphine]

Liluk@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>And regarding GU32...any boost for us is a great thing...an awesome thing. I know I'm looking forward to Wednesday. </blockquote>Agree, its bout time something good happens for us paladins.