Poison Changes on Test

[ChildofHate]

<ul><li>Increased other poison damage to better compete with Caustic Poisons.</li><li>Hemotoxin - Increased tick count from 5 to 7. Damage per tick and total duration remain unchanged.</li><li>Vitality - Small increase in damage.</li></ul><p>So these changes are taking place on test (and assuming will go live come LU32).  What i am wondering is will this make it more worthwhile to start using Hemotoxin as an alternative to caustic?  Or am i basically reading this right (not sure which is why i am asking) and this is basically a fluff-fix which really isn't helping anything?</p><p>Nice to see the boost to vitality breach though.  Wonderful poison to use while soloing.</p>

[HellRaiserXX]

Pretty much fluff I think because it still doesnt fix the problem of it overriding itself.  If it ticks out fully it will do more dmg, but if it overrides itself after the third tick everytime there is no point.  I doubt it would even make the hemotoxin AA viable. The problem was never with its dmg is was that you could never get full dmg out of it because it would refresh too fast.  Adding more ticks isnt going to change that.  It may work a bit better and may even make it an option, but I think caustic will still own it.  Ive seen caustic proc 4+ times in a 30sec fight, no way hemotoxin could ever match that. Poisons should almost be made to proc a set number of times per minute not an avg, that may make it easier to even them out.

[ChildofHate]

<p>That was my impression as well. I dont understand why the devs dont get this.  It's a simple concept AND a concept <i>THEY</i> created.  Makes you wonder how many smacks to teh head it will take before they realize the TRUE problem with that poison.  They need to make it simply not override itself, thus (as we all understand) not resetting the tick counter.</p><p>HELLO.  *taps a dev on the noggin*  Can you either enlighten us as to how this "fix" helps correct the real issue?  If it doesn't, can you guys take a moment and actually correct the problem?  Otherwise, hemotoxin is still an absolute waste of time to even look at... no matter how many ticks you add to it.  Make it not overwrite itself.  THAT's what really needs to happen.  *hands dev a double shot of triple espresso*</p>

[Graton]

i currently use hemotoxin almost exclusively in the new eof raid zones. i've parsed this a number of times and with 5 points spent in hemo i've found a slight increase in zone-wide damage. not enough for it to make me feel great about the 5 points being spent but i do use it regularly. that said increasing to 7 ticks from 5 is not the improvement I'd like to see, going to 4 ticks and making each a bigger hit would be better.

[Jayad]

If you have a bard in your group regularly, this is a completely useless change. I already go through poisons like mad. I just can't see hemo being a remotely viable option until either the general # of procs decreases or something is done about overwriting. Or, alternately, it does its damage faster, as Graton pointed out.

[Graton]

<cite>ChildofHate wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>That was my impression as well. I dont understand why the devs dont get this.  It's a simple concept AND a concept <i>THEY</i> created.  Makes you wonder how many smacks to teh head it will take before they realize the TRUE problem with that poison.  They need to make it simply not override itself, thus (as we all understand) not resetting the tick counter.</p><p>HELLO.  *taps a dev on the noggin*  Can you either enlighten us as to how this "fix" helps correct the real issue?  If it doesn't, can you guys take a moment and actually correct the problem?  Otherwise, hemotoxin is still an absolute waste of time to even look at... no matter how many ticks you add to it.  Make it not overwrite itself.  THAT's what really needs to happen.  *hands dev a double shot of triple espresso*</p></blockquote> i don't see how this is realistic. that would be changing game mechanics on dots in general, not hemotoxin. if it didn't overwrite the only option would be for it to not hit at all which certainly isn't better. what they could do is decrease the number of ticks so that it deals dmg faster. also insulting development people is hardly a way to persuade them to look at something.

[CycoZ]

<p>No doubt this improves hemo but to make it a better option for assassins over caustic our AA would need to increase the initial proc damage to more like (or even more than) the current proc of caustic.</p><p>It seems the devs have failed to grasp what the real problem with hemo vs caustic actually is.</p>

[ChildofHate]

<cite>Graton wrote:</cite><blockquote>i don't see how this is realistic. that would be changing game mechanics on dots in general, not hemotoxin. if it didn't overwrite the only option would be for it to not hit at all which certainly isn't better. what they could do is decrease the number of ticks so that it deals dmg faster. also insulting development people is hardly a way to persuade them to look at something. </blockquote><p> Umm... how is not overwriting itself not better.  If the poison were to proc and not overwrite, ya that's better because you still gain the full use of the one that is already counting down...  so, yes it is better.</p><p>I agree, decreasing the # of ticks is also an option but decrease it to what?  there's no way to know because you can't tell when the next proc will occur.  So you still risk overwriting an already existing application... which certainly isn't better.</p><p>if a dev feels insulted, it's only because they finally realized exactly what the real problem is... they arent insulted, their embarassed.  The light bulb finally came on.</p>

[Kokus]

<p>I think to make me even want to use Hemotoxin, I'd have to max out Hemo.  Now the question then is why invest points into Hemo if Frontload is so amazingly lame.</p><p>Unfortunately that seems to be the case with all of the assassin AA lines but not to get off subject here.  I still don't see hemotoxin as viable for anything other than people who have maxed the hemo ability, and aren't in high end raids.</p>

[khufure]

What does that first line mean?  Is hemotoxin damage increased as well as tick counts?  Not sure if I want to waste the respec trying this out.  (Sarcasm) I really enjoy my 60% sprint and soon will enjoy my AFKaway AOE avoidance.

[LoreLady]

<cite>ChildofHate wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>That was my impression as well<b>. I dont understand why the devs dont get this.  It's a simple concept AND a concept <i>THEY</i></b> created.  Makes you wonder how many smacks to teh head it will take before they realize the TRUE problem with that poison.  They need to make it simply not override itself, thus (as we all understand) not resetting the tick counter.</p><p>HELLO.  *taps a dev on the noggin*  Can you either enlighten us as to how this "fix" helps correct the real issue?  If it doesn't, can you guys take a moment and actually correct the problem?  Otherwise, hemotoxin is still an absolute waste of time to even look at... no matter how many ticks you add to it.  Make it not overwrite itself.  THAT's what really needs to happen.  *hands dev a double shot of triple espresso*</p></blockquote>Immagine if you will, hemotoxin that does not override itself.. You would have multiple poisons going at once, imagine 7 ticks of hemotoxin and another one starting its countdown per tick.. By the end of the fight you "could" have 8 poisons ticking at once.. What if they increase the speed that it ticks at, then you get a stream of damage.. What if they just increase the damage, no solution there when hemotoxins base does as much as caustic.. They are kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one.

[Graton]

<cite>ChildofHate wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Graton wrote:</cite><blockquote>i don't see how this is realistic. that would be changing game mechanics on dots in general, not hemotoxin. if it didn't overwrite the only option would be for it to not hit at all which certainly isn't better. what they could do is decrease the number of ticks so that it deals dmg faster. also insulting development people is hardly a way to persuade them to look at something. </blockquote><p> Umm... how is not overwriting itself not better.  If the poison were to proc and not overwrite, ya that's better because you still gain the full use of the one that is already counting down...  so, yes it is better.</p> </blockquote>not necessarily. while you get the full duration of the one that just hit you miss the extra duration you would have gotten from the one that just wasn't allowed to hit. that's why the only way to really make it work is to reduce the number of ticks and make the damage more frontloaded.

[LoreLady]

The question is, at what point do the caustic and hemotoxin do equal "dps".. Going from memory, isent the damage diffrence only about 150 for one tick to a single caustic poison master crafted..

[Graton]

<cite>LoreLady wrote:</cite><blockquote>The question is, at what point do the caustic and hemotoxin do equal "dps".. Going from memory, isent the damage diffrence only about 150 for one tick to a single caustic poison master crafted.. </blockquote> i'll check when i can but i think you need 3 ticks of hemo to equal caustic. if you get past that it's better. it might be 4, can't recall.

[Aeralik]

<cite>LoreLady wrote:</cite><blockquote>The question is, at what point do the caustic and hemotoxin do equal "dps".. Going from memory, isent the damage diffrence only about 150 for one tick to a single caustic poison master crafted.. </blockquote>The aa skill works to decrease the duration as you all know from 24 to 14 if you max out the skill.  The increase in tick count causes the poison ticks to occur every 2.3 seconds instead of ~3 seconds.  So with the initial damage plus 2 ticks or 4.6 seconds total you actually surpass caustic and initial plus 1 tick is slightly below caustic.  In theory poisons should proc every 12 seconds approximately which has some nice damage potential with hemotoxin.  Of course that is assuming no proc modifiers but even with some slight modifiers from like the cunning set you should still get to the 4 second point most of the time. Edit: Fixed my calculation thought it was 7 update ticks versus 6

[Pins]

As of right now,  Caustic does 830 Damage(GM and 588 INT), while Hemotoxin does 373 Instantly and every 6s for 24s(GM and 588 INT).  The change to test will make Hemotoxin do 373 Instantly and every 4s for 24s.  This means that instead of having to wait 12s to do more damage with Hemotoxin, you only have to wait 8s.  Which is a good thing, considering right now with 100% Haste, you double your procs/minute from 5.0 to 10.0, which means 6s(roughly) between procs.  So, add in the 5 AA points on Hemotoxin and you are now doing that 373 instantly and every 2.33s, which means you only need 4.66s to break caustic damage. Of course, when you get a Dirge and a Templar your proc rate goes from 5.0/10.0 to 7.5/15.0.  Thus, you are now  better off with Caustic no matter what.  Overall, this change probably won't do much of anything if you have a high haste or high proc modifier group, in which case you're screwed and better off sticking it out with Caustic.

[Gungo]

<p>the changes on test allowed for mor eticks in the same duration for the sam amount whcih results in More dps.  BUT The initial problem w hemotoxin still exsists where the the full duration is never realized. What i think is missed it the the duration of hemotoxin is about 2x as long as it should be. AND even w the hemotoxin AA its fine UNTIL you start to add in proc modifiers which brings you back to the initial dilemma of the hemotoxin overwriting itself. TO the point where a caustic poison WITH the same proc modifiers via the class set or bards or mystics etc. would allow for better dps. </p><p>NOW what could work is if the hemo AA would double the duration decrease so that instead of every 2 secs a tick it would activate every 1 sec. Then even with proc modifications you will come out better w hemotoxin AFTER spending the AA's and obtaining the proc buffs. </p><p>I understand in theory mathematically it is suppose to proc every 12 secs. But in game the random number generator is rarely so kind and in that case hemotoxins end up actually being worth less then a caustic. So it will not be used. </p><p>EDIT: or just use the numbers pinski put out up top he is basically saying the same thing. </p><p>If a poisen is ment to proc every 12 secs then why even have a 24sec duration on the dot. If you want to fix hemotoxin and actually have people using them. I would reduce hemotoxin to 12sec duration as a base OR increase the assassin hemotoxin AA.  The damage done is not the issue its the duration that makes it worth less then caustic.</p>

[lilmohi]

I think the whole point you guys seem to be missisng is that not counting aa's both poisons are good with one or the other being prefered based on the situation/group makeup.  If you are in a group that has a dirge and a templar you can switch out for caustic but if not then you can go with hemo.  AA's only make the poisons better (very slightly at that) so its more a question of whether the aa is worth it. 

[Gungo]

Then why put points into the AA's if they can better be placed ANYWHERE else. Bascially all you said was what everyone already knows that caustic is better. SO why put AA's in an ability which would only be marginally useful in the off chance your in a bad group w/o any proc modifications from mystics/bards/templars etc. Its bad design and if/when they add more proc modifiers this design would further be off.

[ke'la]

maybe they can rework it so that instead of Ticking for a period of time, 1 tick every 2 secs for 30sec. make it tick a set number of times then go away say 15times, then if you proc it again it simply adds to the number of ticks remaining.

[Satie]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LoreLady wrote:</cite><blockquote>The question is, at what point do the caustic and hemotoxin do equal "dps".. Going from memory, isent the damage diffrence only about 150 for one tick to a single caustic poison master crafted.. </blockquote>The aa skill works to decrease the duration as you all know from 24 to 14 if you max out the skill.  The increase in tick count causes the poison ticks to occur every 2.3 seconds instead of ~3 seconds.  So with the initial damage plus 2 ticks or 4.6 seconds total you actually surpass caustic and initial plus 1 tick is slightly below caustic.  In theory poisons should proc every 12 seconds approximately which has some nice damage potential with hemotoxin.  Of course that is assuming no proc modifiers but even with some slight modifiers from like the cunning set you should still get to the 4 second point most of the time. Edit: Fixed my calculation thought it was 7 update ticks versus 6 </blockquote>Yes, that should atleast take care of the AA issue, but why take the easy way out instead of making it stack and balancing it with caustic so that proc modifiers and the 10% from the cunning set mean something? I dont know, this just seems like a push over and not really fixing it.

[ChildofHate]

ke'la wrote: <blockquote>maybe they can rework it so that instead of Ticking for a period of time, 1 tick every 2 secs for 30sec. make it tick a set number of times then go away say 15times, then if you proc it again it simply adds to the number of ticks remaining. </blockquote><p> Heh, that's basically what it does now.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  When it reprocs, the counter starts over.  Theorhetically, if the mob never died, you could have an infinite counter.</p><p>The problem though is with Hemotoxin, at the end of the duration there is a spike damage "proc".  Therein is the problem described (and defeated because of it) above.  Hemotoxin never gets a chance to deliver it's "full load" of damage because people reproc it and overwrite the counter...  which does as you said, increases the duration... increasing the ticks, etc.  The ticks are miniscule dmg compared to the blast at the end... which will never happen because the proc gets overwritten before it can play itself out.  ----  WHICH IS WHY i said previously, simply make it so Hemotoxin cannot overwrite itself.  Should a proc chance occur once the mob has already been afflicted, it doesn't happen and it doesn't count against the total procs per buff that remain.  But what do i know, that's only a logical solution...  /shrug</p>

[Satie]

<cite>ChildofHate wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The problem though is with Hemotoxin, at the end of the duration there is a spike damage "proc".</p></blockquote>?

[EvilIguana9]

I think the best solution would just be to make poison DoTs stack with themselves then balance the numbers around that.  It makes sense when you think about it from a realistic point of view.  Poison takes some time to kill, but the more of it you put in someone the stronger the effects are.  So let it stack but increase the duration a bit so that rogues and predators make a choice based on the expected durations of the fights.  Choose caustic if you are satisfied with less damage potential but no wasted damage, choose hemotoxin if you want something that will eat away at significantly more damage but over a longer time and with almost certainly a few wasted ticks of damage especially on procs that happen towards the end of a fight. 

[Graton]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LoreLady wrote:</cite><blockquote>The question is, at what point do the caustic and hemotoxin do equal "dps".. Going from memory, isent the damage diffrence only about 150 for one tick to a single caustic poison master crafted.. </blockquote>The aa skill works to decrease the duration as you all know from 24 to 14 if you max out the skill.  The increase in tick count causes the poison ticks to occur every 2.3 seconds instead of ~3 seconds.  So with the initial damage plus 2 ticks or 4.6 seconds total you actually surpass caustic and initial plus 1 tick is slightly below caustic.  In theory poisons should proc every 12 seconds approximately which has some nice damage potential with hemotoxin.  Of course that is assuming no proc modifiers but even with some slight modifiers from like the cunning set you should still get to the 4 second point most of the time. Edit: Fixed my calculation thought it was 7 update ticks versus 6 </blockquote> 12 seconds assumes 0 haste though which is rarely if ever the case. i do find that hemo in longer fights tends to be slightly better but only after spending 5 aa points when you can get nearly the same damage without spending any; add to this the fact that our 7 item bonus increases proc %age as does one of our end line abilities. this just makes many in the community feel that there was not very good coordination when looking at assassin aa's and gear in EoF. I love my class and overall I think we're balanced fine with other dps classes it's just that our aa / gear don't sync up very well. much appreciated though that you check this forum and post when you can.

[Jayad]

Changing out caustic for hemo is a mistake now, and will continue to be a mistake. Even if you don't have a bard it would be borderline at best. Why put AA into something which is likely to not benefit you much? The whole hemotoxin thing needs to be rethought.

[Mr. Dawki]

<p> so you still have to wait 6-8 seconds to do more dmg with hemo poisons. when most assassins are scrambling to get their hands on a GDoH so they can increase their proc rate to once every 3 seconds (thats what im doing with GDoH)</p><p>this is just a plain dumb move by the devs</p>

[Jvaloth]

<p>Another worthless change.</p><p>Give assassins the Caustic AA that rangers got and get it over with.</p><p>P.S.  Nerf Swashies </p><p>Thx</p>

[Kaiser Sigma]

Another worthless assassin. P.S. Roll a swashie. Preferably Fae, it will match your attitude~.

[Mabes]

<p>I think, even with these changes, grouping with a templar or dirge will keep caustic the better choice, making those achievement points spent in hemotoxin worthless.  Well, at least it follows the assassin achievement line theme...</p><p>p.s. - I like my assassin a lot, although it is the only non-healer I've played past t3.  Just think our achievement lines aren't worth much after getting the first 50 points.</p>

[steelbadger]

From what I can see of my calcs even at 125% attack speed increase (ie 200 haste) Hemo should still be marginally better.  Course, add a big ol' proc increaser and Caustic wins, and with low haste Hemo wins hands down. so, low haste + no proc inreaser = Hemo best (by a lot) High haste + no proc increaser = hemo best (marginally) low haste + proc increaser = hemo best (marginally) high haste + proc increaser = Caustic best. as far as I can see, and there there is tat fact that, apparently, the occult stitching increases the dmg of each tick of Hemo...

[Taym]

Hemotoxin replaced cuastic for me. its not even a close comparison anymore. I highly doubt someone can create a situation in which cuastic will out dps hemotoxin anymore. troubadour - harmonization brings each tick down to 2 seconds scintillating occult stitching doesn't normalize 25 bonus / tick works out significantly better on fights that require ranged or jousting, and i'm noticing about a 20% increase in straight melee fights over 20 seconds. Also has the advantage of being stacked on multiple targets. More reliable baseline to assassin dps in my opinion then its counterparts.

[Graton]

<cite>Taymos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hemotoxin replaced cuastic for me. its not even a close comparison anymore. I highly doubt someone can create a situation in which cuastic will out dps hemotoxin anymore. troubadour - harmonization brings each tick down to 2 seconds scintillating occult stitching doesn't normalize 25 bonus / tick works out significantly better on fights that require ranged or jousting, and i'm noticing about a 20% increase in straight melee fights over 20 seconds. Also has the advantage of being stacked on multiple targets. More reliable baseline to assassin dps in my opinion then its counterparts. </blockquote>with 5 points in the aa and a bard with harmonization, hemo aa is really nice. i still swap in caustic when i'm with a troub and illusionist (rare) and sitting at 135% haste. otherwise hemotoxin all the way. hemo will probably always be better in range fights

[Jayad]

Has anybody done a study over a bunch of zone parses and group configurations? I still think with a bard and other buffs hemo gets overwritten too much. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Siclone]

Algazeed@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>From what I can see of my calcs even at 125% attack speed increase (ie 200 haste) Hemo should still be marginally better.  Course, add a big ol' proc increaser and Caustic wins, and with low haste Hemo wins hands down. so, low haste + no proc inreaser = Hemo best (by a lot) High haste + no proc increaser = hemo best (marginally) low haste + proc increaser = hemo best (marginally) high haste + proc increaser = Caustic best. as far as I can see, and there there is tat fact that, apparently, the occult stitching increases the dmg of each tick of Hemo... </blockquote> are you saying this with or without the AA's?