Why bother with Troubador anyway?

[Trapfinder_Bracegird]

<p>So I played a Troubador from 1-8 yesterday just to see what it was like. I've dabbled a bit in everything but not the "bard" classes and I was really amazed.</p><p>Why bother?</p><p>Troubador is like a Swashbuckler except he can't attack. The "songs" are a poor attempt at a "magic based attack". I get absolutely no feeling that this character is actually a musician or storyteller or even a "Jack of All Trades". He seems to have the worst of every class.</p><p>Then I hit the boards to see what the end game is like for Troubador. All I see are threads about "Well, I get invited to raids and then just stand there". What kind of game play is that? Who in game development would allow something like in their game? Furthermore, where the heck are the instruments (I've said this before in other threads)?</p><p>Why would anyone want to play a Troubador?</p>

[TonyBagz]

<p>If a troub is just standing there not doing anything on a raid he/she is a really horrible troub...</p><p> The whole point of a troub on a raid is to make his whole group better.</p><p> Do not play a troub if you want to be hitting top parse. Play a troub if you want to see the 5 other people in your group at the top end of the parse, each parsing a few hundred higher DPS then if your we're there.</p><p>Check out this post. It does a better job explaining things.</p><p> <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=194656" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=194656</a></p>

[Spider]

<p>wow you played a whopping 8 lvls and think u know the class ? our calss gets a ton of buffs and debuffs and abilities and were NOTHING at all like a swash my friend</p><p>infact i had swashs there rear end in pvp daily  because a swash just cant get close to me </p><p>we are the KINGS of buffs and debuffs and most important of all the KINGS of kiting </p><p>i can solo ^^^ heroic names with general ease  and in pvp take on oj's and reds on the regular </p><p>so b4 you start badmouthing a calss try accualy playing it  into the 30's-40's atleast if not higher and accualy taking time to LEARN about the class and every thing there cabable of </p><p>yes troub has some problems at higher lvls (60's-70 mostly) with some scaling issues and such but over all its a rugged and well rounded class that with only a little tweaking would be truely fantastic </p>

[Milaevo]

wow bet you got a lot of group and experience the isle getting to lvl 8. If that is all it takes to be a master of a class I guess I'm a master at this game. as for grouping/solo/raids I find a troubador a lot more fun them my paladin except having to search for a tank to run instances. Solo at lvl 70 is a little rough but if you have patience you can take out some serious mobs with our mezz and charm. I can duo with my wife's mystic and kill lvl 70 ^^^ heroics with relative ease. in a raid if I'm in the melee group I can parse 600+ and caster group is a little lower. all that while I still increase each member of the group's parse by 300 or more per fight. So why play a troub? you shouldn't since your a [Removed for Content] and think expertise comes in 8 lvls. 70 Trouby on Everfrost 70 Pally on Everfrost 70 Alchie on Everfrost

[Jait]

<cite>TonyBagz wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If a troub is just standing there not doing anything on a raid he/she is a really horrible troub...</p><p> The whole point of a troub on a raid is to make his whole group better.</p><p> Do not play a troub if you want to be hitting top parse. Play a troub if you want to see the 5 other people in your group at the top end of the parse, each parsing a few hundred higher DPS then if your we're there.</p><p>Check out this post. It does a better job explaining things.</p><p> <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=194656" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=194656</a></p></blockquote><p>Yeah, Troubs rock, but they can also be frustrating.  We can increase the output of wizards by roughly 12%.  Bladedance and Maestro can require some decent timing.  40% hate reduction may be the #1 raid ability we offer.  And our Debuffs aren't bad either, especially on certain raid mobs....  </p><p>The whole "Buff bot" thing just illustrates that a lazy Troubadour alone is valuble.  But an active Troubadour can make or break a DPS group in ways no whiner or noob will be able to contemplate.  /shrug </p>

[Thrashercat]

/cheer Nice to hear the positive<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Had to listen to how bards used to be in eq1 and how they no longer take any sort of skill to play....How can 8 levels tell you anything about a class? You dont get any class defining spells, abilities, AA's or anything? No raids and little group experience lend to an ignorant assessment of a good class that excels at bringing excellence to others!

[Graywindnz]

<p>Well I have gotten my troubadour up into her low 50s and she is fun atm I'm doing lvl 60 quests in TT and getting amazing xp off them. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'm loving it big time. <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Also after 8 lvls its hard to judge a class, so make it to at least 30 if you don't like it you haven't wasted to much time but at 50 they really come into there own and can kick [Removed for Content], mine is soloing mobs 5 lvls above her. Ok I will admit is a close fight and if I got an add I'm dead, but that's the fun part.</p><p>Keep it up get to lvl 50 and keep an eye out for the up coming changes </p><p>One other thing to note you will not need a mount your run speed will be faster than any free carpet or horse and there are very few that can match our speed...</p><p> <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>The reasons to play the troub are three as far as I can see:</p><p>You play PvP, You like to play a rare class well, or You want to be desired in raids.</p><p>I enjoy my troub, but, IMO, most other classes are more fun.</p><p>> Keep it up get to lvl 50 and keep an eye out for the up coming changes </p><p>Up coming changes (so far) don't impress me. Hopefully, that will improve before it goes live.</p>

[Mentla]

Well, I officially retired my troob last night.  I'll still buff bot guild groups when I don't feel like concentrating, but that's all.

[Novusod]

What do you mean "Why Bother?" Troubadors are great if you know what you are doing. The other day my group did Den of the Devourer without a healer. Between my debuffs and my hate transfer letting the wizzard hit fusion on every mob we pulled it off. Everyone told me Valdoons was hard but when I went there it turned into a cake walk. Beleive me troubadors are far from broken.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p> > Beleive me troubadors are far from broken. </p><p> These numbers tell me you are wrong. Taken 2/16/2007:</p><p>Troubador 1439 level 70s Coercer 1461 level 70s Illusionist 1569 level 70s </p><p>As the least played class, I wouldn't call them "broken," but neither do I think you can say they are "far from broken."</p>

[Novusod]

Least played does not mean the class is not working as intended. Troubador is one one of the few classes that does what it is supposed to do.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>I believe it does mean exactly that. All the classes are intended to be fun. </p><p>It's the reason for the game. </p><p>A class that is least-played is failing in some regard.</p>

[Arondur]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Least played does not mean the class is not working as intended. Troubador is one one of the few classes that does what it is supposed to do. </blockquote> And that is What? What are we supposed to do... as I see it we dont have any class defining skills.

[Nainitsuj]

<cite>Arondur wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Least played does not mean the class is not working as intended. Troubador is one one of the few classes that does what it is supposed to do. </blockquote> And that is What? What are we supposed to do... as I see it we dont have any class defining skills. </blockquote> But.. we can.. Uh.. hm..

[Jait]

<cite>Arondur wrote:</cite><blockquote>Novusod wrote: And that is What? What are we supposed to do... as I see it we dont have any class defining skills. </blockquote><p> Heh.  And here we have a Troub that doesn't understand his class.  You too Naintsuj.  No wonder you guys whine so much.  You just don't know the class or how to play it.  /shrug</p><p>Maestro, Aria, Highest Mana regen with AAs.  Every resist sphere but PR/DR.   Etc..etc...</p>

[Frigid2000]

<p>People defending the Troub class?  Wow.  Time to wake up and stare hard at reality.</p><p> 1.) People on this thread have claimed we can solo named oranges, triple arrow up.  Yeah, I so enjoy taking ten minutes to solo one mob using a combination of mez, snare and possibly charm and hoping to GOD that none of them break early, which happens way too often as it stands.  Oh, and the fact nearly every other class can walk up and simply mow them down like blades of grass in no time at all.</p><p> 2.) Ok, sure.  Our buffs are nice for groups.  People invite me into groups because of the buffs.  A lot of guilds are looking for troubs.  Great.  Solo play?  Yeah, good luck.  I feel busted and half able to do anything.  It is not so much the fact that I lack the ability if I want to spend way too much time trying to take on mobs, once again, that most other classes seem to have zero issues with whatsoever.  I feel like a half-[Removed for Content] coercer that has the ability to swing a sword.</p><p> 3.) Our DPS?  Laughable, at best.  I see all these other classes putting out stupidly high numbers and blowing all my spells, the hit points of mobs seems to draaag down instead of the intense burst DPS that even TANK classes seem to possess.</p><p> 4.) Survivability?  Sometimes I wonder if I'm wearing cloth armor.</p><p> Here's a great example.  Level 62, all decked out in legendary and mastercrafted armor.  I'm taking on a single arrow up mob.  No big deal.  Takes me a little while to bring all his hit points down, including with HO's, but I get the job done.  Next pull I accidently get two of them around level 60 and am forced to run.  I could have mezzed, sure.  I wouldn't have had enough hit points after the one was down to finish the second.  I could have stood there and waiting for my health regen to bring my health back, sure.  Why?  I watched a bruiser go up a minute later and pull both those one up's, and a group of two single arrow down mobs and kill all four with barely putting yellow health at the end.</p><p> W. T. F.?  </p>

[Novusod]

<cite>Nainitsuj wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arondur wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Least played does not mean the class is not working as intended. Troubador is one one of the few classes that does what it is supposed to do. </blockquote> And that is What? What are we supposed to do... as I see it we dont have any class defining skills. </blockquote> But.. we can.. Uh.. hm..</blockquote>I do the impossible everyday. My groups take on content other groups wouldn't dream of taking on. If it was not for the lag I get in MMC I could roll though that zone too.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> I do the impossible everyday. My groups take on > content other groups wouldn't dream of taking on. > If it was not for the lag I get in MMC I could roll > though that zone too.</p><p> Not real specific here, huh? "I'm real good and my groups are real good" is about all I read. I'm glad you're so awesome, but the troub still needs help.</p><p>Take heart, though. If the troub gets help, you'll be even MORE awesome.</p>

[Arondur]

<cite>Jait wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arondur wrote:</cite><blockquote>Novusod wrote: And that is What? What are we supposed to do... as I see it we dont have any class defining skills. </blockquote><p> Heh.  And here we have a Troub that doesn't understand his class.  You too Naintsuj.  No wonder you guys whine so much.  You just don't know the class or how to play it.  /shrug</p><p>Maestro, Aria, Highest Mana regen with AAs.  Every resist sphere but PR/DR.   Etc..etc...</p></blockquote><p>I ask a simple question and what reply do I get. Insults.  /shrug.  As I understand it, (admittedly I dont play every class out there) many classes equal or surpass all those skills you mention.  So, my question remains... do we have a defining skill or skill set.  Not that I see.  and FYI I am pretty good at playing my Class.  I mostly Solo and group/duo.  I can take a even or Yellow one up but heaven help me if I get a add.  I have seen many other classes waltz thru mobs or groups of them that would have me for lunch. </p>

[Spider]

<cite>Frigid2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>People defending the Troub class?  Wow.  Time to wake up and stare hard at reality.</p><p> 1.) People on this thread have claimed we can solo named oranges, triple arrow up.  Yeah, I so enjoy taking ten minutes to solo one mob using a combination of mez, snare and possibly charm and hoping to GOD that none of them break early, which happens way too often as it stands.  Oh, and the fact nearly every other class can walk up and simply mow them down like blades of grass in no time at all.</p><p> 2.) Ok, sure.  Our buffs are nice for groups.  People invite me into groups because of the buffs.  A lot of guilds are looking for troubs.  Great.  Solo play?  Yeah, good luck.  I feel busted and half able to do anything.  It is not so much the fact that I lack the ability if I want to spend way too much time trying to take on mobs, once again, that most other classes seem to have zero issues with whatsoever.  I feel like a half-[Removed for Content] coercer that has the ability to swing a sword.</p><p> 3.) Our DPS?  Laughable, at best.  I see all these other classes putting out stupidly high numbers and blowing all my spells, the hit points of mobs seems to draaag down instead of the intense burst DPS that even TANK classes seem to possess.</p><p> 4.) Survivability?  Sometimes I wonder if I'm wearing cloth armor.</p><p> Here's a great example.  Level 62, all decked out in legendary and mastercrafted armor.  I'm taking on a single arrow up mob.  No big deal.  Takes me a little while to bring all his hit points down, including with HO's, but I get the job done.  Next pull I accidently get two of them around level 60 and am forced to run.  I could have mezzed, sure.  I wouldn't have had enough hit points after the one was down to finish the second.  I could have stood there and waiting for my health regen to bring my health back, sure.  Why?  I watched a bruiser go up a minute later and pull both those one up's, and a group of two single arrow down mobs and kill all four with barely putting yellow health at the end.</p><p> W. T. F.?  </p></blockquote><p> 1 . i solo every day with little to no trouble at all and while a few calsses may do it faster i do it with style and still have power and hp left afterwards to deal with adds or incoming pvp</p><p>2. group , solo, raid im always wanted needed and valued </p><p>3 i often have to tone down my attacks and crank up the deagro because im pulling agro off the tank , the brig and the wizzie </p><p>4. time for new armor bud </p><p>its a known fact that t7 mastercrafted sux HARCORE </p><p>it scales rediculourly and many t 6 treasured items have far more mit that t7 mastercrafted</p>

[Cynnigig]

<p>The problem as I see it, is that people want the troubadour to be an easy class to play: nukes like wizards, combat arts like assassins, mezzes and charms like coercers, armor and resists like tanks. And at best three or four buttons at the most to press. Maybe this is the audience SOE has to cater to, maybe it is too complicated to play a troubadour well.</p><p>As a raiding troubadour I can't really complain about our damage. We add so much damage to the raid that I can understand SOE being reluctant to give us more personal dps. I haven't managed a zone-wide 1000dps yet, but I'm close. I wouldn't say no to more dps, but it isn't top-priority to me. I work hard and try to do my best, if that amounts to 1000dps, or 500 or 2000 doesn't matter to me. It won't make my playing experience any better.</p><p>Obviously though, this damage is much too low for some. What do you want? Figures please. Hey, maybe they could give all our spells a boost and as compensation take away our proc buff, then they could give our combat arts an increase and take away our deaggro. And then they could rename us to swashbuckler, then we'd be really cool troubadours.</p><p>What is good soloing? No idea, but my impression is that people are complaining less about what we can do, but the time it takes us to do it. So, in essence, it's a race. Maybe that is why I have less complaints with the class than others, I don't watch other players, timing their battles with a stop-watch and then getting all upset if I need a few seconds more. As long as I can easily solo things, which SOE clearly did not mean to be soloed, I can hardly complain.</p><p>But then again, if brawlers can solo so well, maybe they could give us some more avoidance, as compensation we could forfeit mana reg and we would get feign death in exchange for mezz and a taunt instead of charm. Wow, we'd be really cool troubadours then.</p><p>Survivability? Sometimes I die while soloing, which leaves me embarassed, because I inevitably made a mistake. Generally though I can spend hours soloing in the lower Catacombs without dying once. Harvesting shinys (charm is excellent for harvesting shinys with mobs guarding them), taking out the four easily reachable nameds and farming the Lyrechs for pages. I don't have to worry about adds, because I can control them. What more do I want? Being able to solo in the upper Catacombs? That's just plain silly.</p><p>You know, I wish SOE would focus more on the traits which make a troubadour so unique. Give us more of them, making it more harder and complicated to be a good troubadour. But they won't. It'll become easier, blander, stream-lined. When troubadours have become virtually indistinguishable from swashis, then more people will play them. To play a real troubadour though, I fear I'll have to change games.</p>

[Novusod]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> I do the impossible everyday. My groups take on > content other groups wouldn't dream of taking on. > If it was not for the lag I get in MMC I could roll > though that zone too.</p><p> Not real specific here, huh? "I'm real good and my groups are real good" is about all I read. I'm glad you're so awesome, but the troub still needs help.</p><p>Take heart, though. If the troub gets help, you'll be even MORE awesome.</p></blockquote>If you want specific advice on how to play the class in a group then I would suggest paying attention to your group's overall progress in battle. Watch their life bars and power use and switch between buffs as needed. If a caster or healer pulls agro off the tank then cast hate transfer on them and use cheap shot on the mob. These strategies save groups and prevent wipes. I support troubs in their current form because I don't want them to be turned into brigs. If I wanted to solo like a brig and do direct dps like a brig I would have rolled a brig. Anything more than minor changes would likely do more harm than good to the class

[Spider]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> I do the impossible everyday. My groups take on > content other groups wouldn't dream of taking on. > If it was not for the lag I get in MMC I could roll > though that zone too.</p><p> Not real specific here, huh? "I'm real good and my groups are real good" is about all I read. I'm glad you're so awesome, but the troub still needs help.</p><p>Take heart, though. If the troub gets help, you'll be even MORE awesome.</p></blockquote>If you want specific advice on how to play the class in a group then I would suggest paying attention to your group's overall progress in battle. Watch their life bars and power use and switch between buffs as needed. If a caster or healer pulls agro off the tank then cast hate transfer on them and use cheap shot on the mob. These strategies save groups and prevent wipes. I support troubs in their current form because I don't want them to be turned into brigs. If I wanted to solo like a brig and do direct dps like a brig I would have rolled a brig. Anything more than minor changes would likely do more harm than good to the class </blockquote><p> to you and the preivous guy i say AMEN </p><p>while some nice tweeks here and there would be amazing anything else would jsut make us cease to be troubs and bards and jsut make us another crappy scout </p>

[Pik'ee]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> I do the impossible everyday. My groups take on > content other groups wouldn't dream of taking on. > If it was not for the lag I get in MMC I could roll > though that zone too.</p><p> Not real specific here, huh? "I'm real good and my groups are real good" is about all I read. I'm glad you're so awesome, but the troub still needs help.</p><p>Take heart, though. If the troub gets help, you'll be even MORE awesome.</p></blockquote>If you want specific advice on how to play the class in a group then I would suggest paying attention to your group's overall progress in battle. Watch their life bars and power use and switch between buffs as needed. If a caster or healer pulls agro off the tank then <span style="color: #cc0033">cast hate transfer on them</span> and use cheap shot on the mob. These strategies save groups and prevent wipes. I support troubs in their current form because I don't want them to be turned into brigs. If I wanted to solo like a brig and do direct dps like a brig I would have rolled a brig. Anything more than minor changes would likely do more harm than good to the class </blockquote>I'm sorry, cast what? Cast the <span style="color: #cc0000">group</span> buff that if you'd already had running would have probably prevented them pulling aggro in the first place? Technicalities aside, I place myself between the 2 extremes, the troub is certainly lacking something defining now, but is far from completely busted. Like many others have said, we have the skills and abilities to allow us to solo stuff almost noone but a coercer could...but just like the coercer, it's so unbelieveably tedious to do most people won't do it, as it's just not fun... *edited for the "probably" <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[TonyBagz]

<cite>Cynnigig wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As a raiding troubadour I can't really complain about our damage. We add so much damage to the raid that I can understand SOE being reluctant to give us more personal dps. I haven't managed a zone-wide 1000dps yet, but I'm close. I wouldn't say no to more dps, but it isn't top-priority to me. I work hard and try to do my best, if that amounts to 1000dps, or 500 or 2000 doesn't matter to me. It won't make my playing experience any better.</p></blockquote><p>Hey Cynnigig,</p><p> Same here haven't hit 1K yet. but it's looking good for the next Live update. Heard they're going to be uping our auto-attack to be on par with rogues <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Vraneth]

<cite>Cynnigig wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The problem as I see it, is that people want the troubadour to be an easy class to play: nukes like wizards, combat arts like assassins, mezzes and charms like coercers, armor and resists like tanks. And at best three or four buttons at the most to press. Maybe this is the audience SOE has to cater to, maybe it is too complicated to play a troubadour well.</p><p>As a raiding troubadour I can't really complain about our damage. We add so much damage to the raid that I can understand SOE being reluctant to give us more personal dps. I haven't managed a zone-wide 1000dps yet, but I'm close. I wouldn't say no to more dps, but it isn't top-priority to me. I work hard and try to do my best, if that amounts to 1000dps, or 500 or 2000 doesn't matter to me. It won't make my playing experience any better.</p><p>Obviously though, this damage is much too low for some. What do you want? Figures please. Hey, maybe they could give all our spells a boost and as compensation take away our proc buff, then they could give our combat arts an increase and take away our deaggro. And then they could rename us to swashbuckler, then we'd be really cool troubadours.</p><p>What is good soloing? No idea, but my impression is that people are complaining less about what we can do, but the time it takes us to do it. So, in essence, it's a race. Maybe that is why I have less complaints with the class than others, I don't watch other players, timing their battles with a stop-watch and then getting all upset if I need a few seconds more. As long as I can easily solo things, which SOE clearly did not mean to be soloed, I can hardly complain.</p><p>But then again, if brawlers can solo so well, maybe they could give us some more avoidance, as compensation we could forfeit mana reg and we would get feign death in exchange for mezz and a taunt instead of charm. Wow, we'd be really cool troubadours then.</p><p>Survivability? Sometimes I die while soloing, which leaves me embarassed, because I inevitably made a mistake. Generally though I can spend hours soloing in the lower Catacombs without dying once. Harvesting shinys (charm is excellent for harvesting shinys with mobs guarding them), taking out the four easily reachable nameds and farming the Lyrechs for pages. I don't have to worry about adds, because I can control them. What more do I want? Being able to solo in the upper Catacombs? That's just plain silly.</p><p>You know, I wish SOE would focus more on the traits which make a troubadour so unique. Give us more of them, making it more harder and complicated to be a good troubadour. But they won't. It'll become easier, blander, stream-lined. When troubadours have become virtually indistinguishable from swashis, then more people will play them. To play a real troubadour though, I fear I'll have to change games.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>Sure I agree that the troubadours need some  fixes here and there, but in it's essence this is exactly how I feel about my class. </p>

[Emerix]

<cite>Cynnigig wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The problem as I see it, is that people want the troubadour to be an easy class to play: nukes like wizards, combat arts like assassins, mezzes and charms like coercers, armor and resists like tanks. And at best three or four buttons at the most to press. Maybe this is the audience SOE has to cater to, maybe it is too complicated to play a troubadour well.</p><p>As a raiding troubadour I can't really complain about our damage. We add so much damage to the raid that I can understand SOE being reluctant to give us more personal dps. I haven't managed a zone-wide 1000dps yet, but I'm close. I wouldn't say no to more dps, but it isn't top-priority to me. I work hard and try to do my best, if that amounts to 1000dps, or 500 or 2000 doesn't matter to me. It won't make my playing experience any better.</p><p>Obviously though, this damage is much too low for some. What do you want? Figures please. Hey, maybe they could give all our spells a boost and as compensation take away our proc buff, then they could give our combat arts an increase and take away our deaggro. And then they could rename us to swashbuckler, then we'd be really cool troubadours.</p><p>What is good soloing? No idea, but my impression is that people are complaining less about what we can do, but the time it takes us to do it. So, in essence, it's a race. Maybe that is why I have less complaints with the class than others, I don't watch other players, timing their battles with a stop-watch and then getting all upset if I need a few seconds more. As long as I can easily solo things, which SOE clearly did not mean to be soloed, I can hardly complain.</p><p>But then again, if brawlers can solo so well, maybe they could give us some more avoidance, as compensation we could forfeit mana reg and we would get feign death in exchange for mezz and a taunt instead of charm. Wow, we'd be really cool troubadours then.</p><p>Survivability? Sometimes I die while soloing, which leaves me embarassed, because I inevitably made a mistake. Generally though I can spend hours soloing in the lower Catacombs without dying once. Harvesting shinys (charm is excellent for harvesting shinys with mobs guarding them), taking out the four easily reachable nameds and farming the Lyrechs for pages. I don't have to worry about adds, because I can control them. What more do I want? Being able to solo in the upper Catacombs? That's just plain silly.</p><p>You know, I wish SOE would focus more on the traits which make a troubadour so unique. Give us more of them, making it more harder and complicated to be a good troubadour. But they won't. It'll become easier, blander, stream-lined. When troubadours have become virtually indistinguishable from swashis, then more people will play them. To play a real troubadour though, I fear I'll have to change games.</p></blockquote><p>Wow ! Someone with a brain ! *hugs*</p><p>/agree </p>

[Rast]

<p>I have a couple small peeves about the bard (the range attack being bow only for one...), but they aren't major or norrath shattering and are more RP oriented than anything else.  I'll keep playing my little bard when I get the time to <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Just give us instruments and the ability to use throwing knives with our range attack please <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> The problem as I see it, is that people want the troubadour to be an easy class to play</p><p>That might be what you fear, but I don't think it's what most people want. I like complicated, difficult-to-play classes. I like to feel how I play the class makes a lot of difference. Unfortunately, the difference between a well-played troub and an average troub just isn't that much. The difference between a well-played necro and an average necro is amazing.</p><p>> You know, I wish SOE would focus more on the traits which make a > troubadour so unique. Give us more of them, making it more harder > and complicated to be a good troubadour.</p><p>I agree 100%. Frankly, I was satisfied with the troubadour before the mez nerfs.</p><p>Honestly, it sounds like we all want the class to get a few tweaks and keep its troubadour uniqueness, and it's a little hard after reading this thread to see what we are arguing about.</p><p> Edit: I took out my rebuttals of points made above, because it really does seem we are mostly in agreement. I'd rather focus on what the troubadour needs than argue about whether it needs "almost no help", or "a little help."</p>

[Cuz]

Troubs so far are the most boring class I've played.

[Cuz]

<cite>Jait wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arondur wrote:</cite><blockquote>Novusod wrote: And that is What? What are we supposed to do... as I see it we dont have any class defining skills. </blockquote><p> Heh.  And here we have a Troub that doesn't understand his class.  You too Naintsuj.  No wonder you guys whine so much.  You just don't know the class or how to play it.  /shrug</p><p><span style="color: #cc3300">Maestro, Aria, Highest Mana regen with AAs.  Every resist sphere but PR/DR.   Etc..etc...</span></p></blockquote> There's one thing that you mention there that I would consider being "playing" the troub. The rest is just putting up the obvious buffs.

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Troubs so far are the most boring class I've played. </blockquote><p> Try playing in under-strength groups in zones that you shouldnt be in. A group with tank/healer/DPS in an easy zone isn't really going to notice a huge difference between a troub and a <insert DPS class here></p><p>A group going through a hard zone... Mistmoore Castle? Nizara? Will almost certainly get wiped without a mezzer. ( I say almost, because there are uber-raiders around who will try to tell me that they solo it)</p><p>For those of you who just want to see your name on the parse... play a different class, you wont be on it. (however if you think about what our buffs give people, then you can justify claiming the top position in every fight)</p>

[Elfin Hoi Man]

<span style="color: #ff9900">You know there are bards out there who parse 700-800 DPS zonewide. For me anyway, the Troubadour is the most fun class i've played.</span>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> A group going through a hard zone... Mistmoore Castle? Nizara? Will almost > certainly get wiped without a mezzer.</p><p>Never been there, so I will assume you are correct. However, in those zones a troub is no more necessary than a tank, healer, or DPS. In essence, then, a troub is unneeded until high-level difficult zones. </p><p>Even still, here is what I see on broadcast:</p><p>"Group looking for healer." All the time "Group looking for tank."  Every day "Group looking for DPS."  Often "Group looking for mezzer." Never</p>

[Lune]

Not to mention that when people do look for mezzers, they usually prefer chanters.  Nizzara is nearly impossible for certain named without a mezzer, but who really goes there anymore? Despite all this, troubadours are extremely valuable pieces of any raid force.

[Valshyra]

<cite>Cynnigig wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The problem as I see it, is that people want the troubadour to be an easy class to play: nukes like wizards, combat arts like assassins, mezzes and charms like coercers, armor and resists like tanks. And at best three or four buttons at the most to press. Maybe this is the audience SOE has to cater to, maybe it is too complicated to play a troubadour well.</p><p>As a raiding troubadour I can't really complain about our damage. We add so much damage to the raid that I can understand SOE being reluctant to give us more personal dps. I haven't managed a zone-wide 1000dps yet, but I'm close. I wouldn't say no to more dps, but it isn't top-priority to me. I work hard and try to do my best, if that amounts to 1000dps, or 500 or 2000 doesn't matter to me. It won't make my playing experience any better.</p><p>Obviously though, this damage is much too low for some. What do you want? Figures please. Hey, maybe they could give all our spells a boost and as compensation take away our proc buff, then they could give our combat arts an increase and take away our deaggro. And then they could rename us to swashbuckler, then we'd be really cool troubadours.</p><p>What is good soloing? No idea, but my impression is that people are complaining less about what we can do, but the time it takes us to do it. So, in essence, it's a race. Maybe that is why I have less complaints with the class than others, I don't watch other players, timing their battles with a stop-watch and then getting all upset if I need a few seconds more. As long as I can easily solo things, which SOE clearly did not mean to be soloed, I can hardly complain.</p><p>But then again, if brawlers can solo so well, maybe they could give us some more avoidance, as compensation we could forfeit mana reg and we would get feign death in exchange for mezz and a taunt instead of charm. Wow, we'd be really cool troubadours then.</p><p>Survivability? Sometimes I die while soloing, which leaves me embarassed, because I inevitably made a mistake. Generally though I can spend hours soloing in the lower Catacombs without dying once. Harvesting shinys (charm is excellent for harvesting shinys with mobs guarding them), taking out the four easily reachable nameds and farming the Lyrechs for pages. I don't have to worry about adds, because I can control them. What more do I want? Being able to solo in the upper Catacombs? That's just plain silly.</p><p>You know, I wish SOE would focus more on the traits which make a troubadour so unique. Give us more of them, making it more harder and complicated to be a good troubadour. But they won't. It'll become easier, blander, stream-lined. When troubadours have become virtually indistinguishable from swashis, then more people will play them. To play a real troubadour though, I fear I'll have to change games.</p></blockquote><p>QFE!! </p><p>couldn't agree more. i love my troubie, yes we  need some love, but to many changes and it will no longer be a troubie! </p>

[Cuz]

<cite>Valshyra wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cynnigig wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The problem as I see it, is that people want the troubadour to be an easy class to play: nukes like wizards, combat arts like assassins, mezzes and charms like coercers, armor and resists like tanks. And at best three or four buttons at the most to press. Maybe this is the audience SOE has to cater to, maybe it is too complicated to play a troubadour well.</p><p>As a raiding troubadour I can't really complain about our damage. We add so much damage to the raid that I can understand SOE being reluctant to give us more personal dps. I haven't managed a zone-wide 1000dps yet, but I'm close. I wouldn't say no to more dps, but it isn't top-priority to me. I work hard and try to do my best, if that amounts to 1000dps, or 500 or 2000 doesn't matter to me. It won't make my playing experience any better.</p><p>Obviously though, this damage is much too low for some. What do you want? Figures please. Hey, maybe they could give all our spells a boost and as compensation take away our proc buff, then they could give our combat arts an increase and take away our deaggro. And then they could rename us to swashbuckler, then we'd be really cool troubadours.</p><p>What is good soloing? No idea, but my impression is that people are complaining less about what we can do, but the time it takes us to do it. So, in essence, it's a race. Maybe that is why I have less complaints with the class than others, I don't watch other players, timing their battles with a stop-watch and then getting all upset if I need a few seconds more. As long as I can easily solo things, which SOE clearly did not mean to be soloed, I can hardly complain.</p><p>But then again, if brawlers can solo so well, maybe they could give us some more avoidance, as compensation we could forfeit mana reg and we would get feign death in exchange for mezz and a taunt instead of charm. Wow, we'd be really cool troubadours then.</p><p>Survivability? Sometimes I die while soloing, which leaves me embarassed, because I inevitably made a mistake. Generally though I can spend hours soloing in the lower Catacombs without dying once. Harvesting shinys (charm is excellent for harvesting shinys with mobs guarding them), taking out the four easily reachable nameds and farming the Lyrechs for pages. I don't have to worry about adds, because I can control them. What more do I want? Being able to solo in the upper Catacombs? That's just plain silly.</p><p>You know, I wish SOE would focus more on the traits which make a troubadour so unique. Give us more of them, making it more harder and complicated to be a good troubadour. But they won't. It'll become easier, blander, stream-lined. When troubadours have become virtually indistinguishable from swashis, then more people will play them. To play a real troubadour though, I fear I'll have to change games.</p></blockquote><p>QFE!! </p><p>couldn't agree more. i love my troubie, yes we  need some love, but<span style="color: #cc0000"> to many changes and it will no longer be a troubie!</span> </p></blockquote> That's already happened.

[ReturnOfMadness]

think back to pre lu13? the -.-ed up dof combat changes, we were great back than, yeah our defense buff was overpowered but only that needed changing, now were just plain not troubs anymore, troubs used to be defensive buffers, and dirges offensive ones,noone complained about that, the boards were all flooding with praise (well in a perfect world <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)

[Novusod]

Has the Daelis buff line recently been nerfed? I seem to remeber this being a group (AE) spell but now it is only a self spell no longer applied to the whole group. The casters I group with are not going to be too happy about loosing that extra 160 int I used to give them.

[ForgottenFoundling]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Has the Daelis buff line recently been nerfed? I seem to remeber this being a group (AE) spell but now it is only a self spell no longer applied to the whole group. The casters I group with are not going to be too happy about loosing that extra 160 int I used to give them. </blockquote> LOL, it's NEVER been groupwide.

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>ForgottenFoundling wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Has the Daelis buff line recently been nerfed? I seem to remeber this being a group (AE) spell but now it is only a self spell no longer applied to the whole group. The casters I group with are not going to be too happy about loosing that extra 160 int I used to give them. </blockquote> LOL, it's NEVER been groupwide.</blockquote> Hehe yea - if it was groupwide in its current form, I'd be the first one to say "overpowered, nerf pls" <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />