Hooray for LU32

[Jait]

<p>Bards: Selo's Speed of Sound, a new upgrade of Selo's Accelerating Chorus is available at level 55.</p><p>Alin's Keening Lamentation - Casting time changed from 3 to 2.5 seconds. Reuse time changed from 15 to 12 seconds. Arcane Chorus - Increased resist amounts. Elemental Chorus - Increased resist amounts. Performer's Talent - Increased trigger percentage.</p><p>Troubador: Increased weapon autoattack damage to match Rogue tables.</p>

[Martrae]

Bard: Coin Toss - Duration to trigger HO effect reduced from 3 to 1 second. Reuse time increased from 1 to 5 seconds. Harbinger's Sonnet - Benefit is now directly tied to Selo's without having to cast another spell, and slightly increase the non-combat movement speed. Pets will no longer display in the tracking window.

[ReturnOfMadness]

No offense but this is a total and utter JOKE, if i wanted high auto damage i would have rolled a real mellee class -.-, our resists increase made me laugh, prolly a 50 increase orso =/ yeah real good woohoo Speedincrease for bards ehh? where our aa line got nerfed so we end up running slower (combat speed got nerfed too) - Mystic aa speed got nerfed, who asked for that? thats right noone we just wanted to outrun people whitout nerfing them - Performers talent our debuff triggers more, yeah that is sumthing to be happy about lol, the trigger is when we get hit, which we aint supposed to, to get started anyway EVER. if ya do there are 2 things going on... 1. The tank sucks ya should leave party 2. You are tanking which well usually aint beneficial (unless ya tanking sos with a near perfect group, but thats a whole other story) Coin Toss - LOL noone took taht useless ability anyway (and its even more useless now) Harbingers sonnet - see speed song Autoattack dps, hmm gotta see this before i judge it but doubt it is any good, but i know from experience, the most damage from other scouts autoattack comes from poison procs and even more from combat arts Alins Keening Lamantation, only thing i am happy with since  i spam it, but still not that good to say that the bard as a whole got a whole lot of love, and to conclude this, the love plain sucks please come back with any decent improvement when ya say again ya improving our class. A disgrunted trouba

[Pogopuschel]

<ul><li>I agree on the Coin Toss, maybe it's useful for people who picked it</li><li>I agree on Performer's Talent, since I raid mainly I don't use it at all (cannot waste that conc. slot), and the proc will not make me happy when it triggers while I get one-shotted by en epic's melee attack. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></li><li>The real joke though is the <b>current</b> auto-attack damage which is pretty much nothing compared to spells/CAs. So thumbs up on that change!</li><li>Why say the resist increase sucks if you don't even know how much it was increased?</li><li>Who says Mystic nerf is related?</li><li>Who needs a perfect/full group for SoS when you are 70?</li><li>Who said these adjustments are final? It's been 2 weeks since LU31, these update notes are from test server</li><li>Who "spams" Alin's on a single mob, or rather how often do you fight groups of more than mobs? For a T7 encounter-AE the damage it does is a joke otherwise! </li></ul> Just my 2 copper... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <ul></ul>

[Cynnigig]

As it stands right now, I already do not cast one of our spells, because autoattack does more damage. Depending on how much our autoattack is increased, the most efficient way to play a troubadour may be to focus on autoattack. Seriously, who wants to play a troubadour like that? It will be a great boost to auto-follow troubadours though.

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>Cynnigig wrote:</cite><blockquote>As it stands right now, I already do not cast one of our spells, because autoattack does more damage. Depending on how much our autoattack is increased, the most efficient way to play a troubadour may be to focus on autoattack. Seriously, who wants to play a troubadour like that? It will be a great boost to auto-follow troubadours though.</blockquote> ?! No idea what we do differently tbh, but my auto-attack damage with two 1.6s dual wield weapons with a damage rating of ~58.5 is around 140 with roughly 550 STR, it could maybe be 200-220 when just auto-attacking. You must have an insane auto-attack value if you cannot beat it with spells/CAs. Also, you do not stop dealing auto-attack damage when using spells, and I can hardly see it go down a lot if you <i>do</i> use spells.

[Cynnigig]

It's not about constant auto-attack damage, but a one-hit comparison. Casting Sandra's for about 400 damage, with little chance at procing or auto-attacking with a higher chance to proc.

[Pogopuschel]

The auto-attack "timer" does not stop when you do something else in the middle. Say I just swung my weapons (autoattack) at time t+0. "Cast" time of Sandra's is what, 0.5s? Say it's 0.5s, plus 0.5s recovery, so I finish this one at t+1.6s. Considering my weapon delay of 1.6s, I will autoattack at t+1.6s again, whether I used Sandra' s or not. Either that, or my understanding of that is completely wrong and my log file lied to me all these years.

[Cynnigig]

Yes, that is correct. But what happens, when the auto-attack timer is at 1.5s and you then cast Sandra's?

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>Cynnigig wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, that is correct. But what happens, when the auto-attack timer is at 1.5s and you then cast Sandra's?</blockquote> Then you will lose 0.9s of auto-attack. But when Sandra's is done you swing the next auto-attack, and 1.6s later the next one, since if you are too busy to swing after the 1.6s have elapsed the timer is "on hold". You shouldn't lose constantly if you time your C As/spells well. (I'm not saying I know this for a fac t, what I'm saying is based on my own and other pe ople's observasions. And it makes sense that auto-attack timers work like spell timers. the "cooldown-timer" starts after you use it, it's not a 1.6s periodic  cycle. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)

[Cynnigig]

<p>And my thinking is why lose the time on auto-attack, when I can have it immediately, if I don't cast Sandra's. Because of its really low damage Sandra's is a place-holder spell anyway, which I used to cast when nothing else was up and which I now only use to end HOs, when nothing else is up.</p><p>I got the tip to drop Sandra's in this forum and although I haven't mathematically worked out the figures, subjectively I would say my parses have gotten better.</p>

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>Cynnigig wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And my thinking is why lose the time on auto-attack, when I can have it immediately, if I don't cast Sandra's. Because of its really low damage Sandra's is a place-holder spell anyway, which I used to cast when nothing else was up and which I now only use to end HOs, when nothing else is up.</p><p>I got the tip to drop Sandra's in this forum and although I haven't mathematically worked out the figures, subjectively I would say my parses have gotten better.</p></blockquote> I got the same suggestion, and it actually did the opposite. Considering my dps of 140 through auto-attack swings, this is no wonder. Ideally ofc, you try to squeeze in as many CAs/spells between auto-attacks without actually delaying auto-attack, which is a [I cannot control my vocabulary] to time... :} and also there's spells that will give you more dps when they are up, even if you have to "sit out" for 2 auto-attack cycles... Does someone feel like programming a calculator for the optimal sequence? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Input would be weapon delay + dps stat of the weapon, CA/spell damage and recast/recovery time, and ... (Yea, I'm not a machine, I rather use intuition and do as good as humanly possible <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )

[Antipalad]

Congratulations on fixing runspeed, long overdue. As for the rest of the changes? Total and utter joke along the lines of the improved dmg to Guviena's. Proc increase on our self buff? What's up with that? It's a dmg shield, and last time I checked the Troubador wasn't a tank. This "fix" serves no purpose whatsoever. Increased resists for our buffs may be well and fine, but they are amongst the least used buffs for the class, period. There just isn't enough concentration slots to justify the loss of our decent buffs in 95% of the cases. Coin toss, where to begin? Who took this AA anyways? I'll leave it at that. So to recap, what are we left with. Selfbuff that we have to sacrifice to do our job, powerdraining attacks that have lost their purpose since lvl 50 was cap and are a waste of time to use now. No stances still. All in all, thank you for removing every last shred of faith I had in the developers actually knowing how classes play and what they should be. My hat goes off to you.

[Martrae]

Runspeed is not fixed. It's being reported from Test that while they did add another Selo's (at only a 4% increase instead of 6%) they also decreased each level of Harbinger's to 1% instead of the 1.5% that's currently live. This means we'll be running at the exact same speed IF we put 8 points into Harbinger's.

[Antipalad]

Sony giveth and sony taketh? Where exactly are you going with this class?

[Lachlan]

I think it's fair to characterize complaints about Troubs over the past year as: <ul><li>Overall DPS does not scale up especially post-50.</li><li>Boring to play compared to many other classes.  Used primarily as a raid buff bot.</li><li>Selo's + AA nothing special compared to other class buffs and AA's / new mounts.</li><li>Loss of unique crowd control abilities.</li></ul>So, does LU 32 as is so far shown in Test updates look like it will fill the bill?  <ul><li>Selo's - Increased</li><li>Playstyle changes - Umm not unless you believe cointoss > all</li><li>DPS - it appears they are trying to address it but without people parsing and trying to optimize CA vs. auto-attack damage it's hard to say.</li><li>CC abilities - looks like a NO there.</li></ul>So the test version of LU 32 looks like it addresses about half of what has been on the troub most wanted list.  I'd say that's a good start at least but hopefully they don't fix everything in half measures ( ok, they do seem to fix everything in half measures so maybe this is it. )  At least I'll log in now and try my Troub out again that's something.  The rest is up to the Dev's and how much they are willing to do to make bards fun again.  Suggestions: <ol><li>Daelis' Frolicking (Self buff) shouldn't need a Con slot of its own.</li><li>Mighty Bellow - full knockdown if not resisted (current 35% chance after resist check).</li><li>EoF AA's to lengthen charm / Mez durations.</li><li>Dump Balletic Avoidance (60) - for a strait out group ward.  (Think about how this dovetails better with our raid roll.) </li><li>Regen songs should scale higher post-60.</li><li>EoF AA that adds Mem-wipe to our charm on expiration.</li></ol> I think those would do a lot more to make Troubs a fun, repeat play (ie keep paying the subscription) class.  None the less, cheers for addressing class concerns.

[Trabbart]

<p>Hooray?</p>

[Mulilla]

<p>Better than nothing... </p><p>Anyway i still cant believe that our self buff stils takes a conc slot.  How can this be considered overpowered or against class balance???? Hell, dont give me the [i can not control my vocabulary] stances, but remove the  [i can not control my vocabulary] conc requirement</p><p>EDIT:</p><p>Ah, my anger made me forget about Zander's (bugged and acknowledged) and Requiem of Reflection (wich its a big piece of [i can not control blah blah])</p>

[Spider]

<p>help me out here im horrible with rembering names of things </p><p>Alin's Keening Lamentation - Casting time changed from 3 to 2.5 seconds. Reuse time changed from 15 to 12 </p><p>is this our group cast on the fly ? or our solo cast ont eh fly ? </p>

[Jait]

<p>Shrill, or the one with the Red background is a single target nuke.</p><p>Same icon with the green background (Alin's) is the group nuke.  With EoF AA's you can decrease casting time even further, and up the damage.  It's extraordinarily useful in PvP believe it or not as it also interrupts.  On raids I use this one on group encounters especially with tons of linked adds.  With Aria/Maestro/Frigid Winds etc... I can sometimes nail each of them for 1500 a pop.  Only time I ever break 1k+ on parses <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Thrashercat]

Eh, its better than nothing I suppose....the auto-attack thing is sounding less and less important with the number of songs i cast...its a start..../shrugs

[Spider]

<cite>Martrae wrote:</cite><blockquote>Runspeed is not fixed. It's being reported from Test that while they did add another Selo's (at only a 4% increase instead of 6%) they also decreased each level of Harbinger's to 1% instead of the 1.5% that's currently live. This means we'll be running at the exact same speed IF we put 8 points into Harbinger's. </blockquote><p>as i stated in another thread lets re-read the notes </p><p>Bards: Selo's Speed of Sound, a new upgrade of Selo's Accelerating Chorus is available at level 55. Harbinger's Sonnet - Benefit is now directly tied to Selo's without having to cast another spell, and slightly increase the non-combat movement speed. </p><p>no where is ther eany mention of any speed decrease or change </p><p>therefore  common sense will tell you that if infact in TEST atm there is a decrease its what we call a BUG  and testcenter has  lots of those </p><p>so everyone needs to step off the whine train for a min and bug it in test as proper so it can be fixed b4 hitting live </p>

[Milaevo]

This update is actually quite good imo. Run speed - Who spent the points to max harbinger's rather then taking 2 end abilities in KoS?, so with having to spend 22 pts in the WIS line to get DKTM this allows a few more pts for harbingers, Allegro(my choice) or Harmonizing Shot. And with the other run buffs, mystic, being scaled down to their intended amount we DO RUN faster then other classes in the game. Auto-atk dmg increased- This I'm excited to test out when it goes live, you can do A LOT of dmg from you auto-atk if you leave a small gap inbetween yoru spell casts to hit the mob, in other words stop queing EVERY spell attack. Daelis' proc increase- This is great for soloing ability which a lot of ppl complained about not being able to solo as well as other classes, you only use this when solo and having to take hits anyways. Coin Toss - Well no justification for this one, SOE blooper, imo this abilty should be changed with another ability, possible a smaller scale Aria's or even, do I dare say, an INT song, SOE, this is the INT line and should be a DPS type buff for the group. Alin's- This is nice to have as in raids, the group encounters don't drop that fast and with Aria's and Precision active you can proc out some nice dmg with this spell on the encounter, thus increasing the wanted DPS we have asked for. 70 Troubador on Everfrost 70 Paladin on Everfrost 70 Alchemist on Everfrost

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> therefore  common sense will tell you that if infact in TEST atm > there is a decrease its what we call a BUG  and testcenter has  lots of those </p><p>While I hope you are right, I disagree. Common sense tells me the change was left out of the update notes, and that we better start the whining now in hopes they will change it back.</p>

[Martrae]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Martrae wrote:</cite><blockquote>Runspeed is not fixed. It's being reported from Test that while they did add another Selo's (at only a 4% increase instead of 6%) they also decreased each level of Harbinger's to 1% instead of the 1.5% that's currently live. This means we'll be running at the exact same speed IF we put 8 points into Harbinger's. </blockquote><p>as i stated in another thread lets re-read the notes </p><p>Bards: Selo's Speed of Sound, a new upgrade of Selo's Accelerating Chorus is available at level 55. Harbinger's Sonnet - Benefit is now directly tied to Selo's without having to cast another spell, and slightly increase the non-combat movement speed. </p><p>no where is ther eany mention of any speed decrease or change </p><p>therefore  common sense will tell you that if infact in TEST atm there is a decrease its what we call a BUG  and testcenter has  lots of those </p><p>so everyone needs to step off the whine train for a min and bug it in test as proper so it can be fixed b4 hitting live </p></blockquote> Maybe you need to read what Lockeye said <cite>Lockeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's 1% to out of combat speed, and 1.5% to in-combat speed. The 1.5% in-combat speed isn't showing in the examine information on test, which will be fixed soon.</blockquote> It's NOT a bug.....who's 'whining' now?

[Frigid2000]

<p>Hooray?</p><p>I left this game for months because the Troubador class is so busted.  Poor DPS and even worse survivability made it frustrating to try and solo anything.</p><p>I can barely take on one up arrows a couple of levels above me.  Usually I have to run.  Double or triple arrows?  No chance in hell.  And I'm not going to sit there and waste my time to mez/nuke or try to snare when it never holds and I have to run through packs of mobs.  And charm is a giant waste of space.</p><p>I got really tired of seeing TANK classes or other DPS classes walk up to mobs I can barely handle and not even get put down into yellow in health and often enough, they could take on multiples of those mobs.  </p><p>I came back and the class STILL hasn't improved.  Our buffs are nice, yes - but they still don't put us on par with any other class.</p><p>I know a response to this will be "then you shouldn't have rolled a troub, go roll dps!".</p><p>I enjoy playing the class, but we're some red-headed stepchild hybrid that got the shaft on everything.  Either nerf everyone else, or buff us.  I get tired of being the experiment that isn't working.</p>

[Tri]

The harbinger change would be great with a lvl 69 selo, as this way even the bards not going in wis line would have a good runspeed. ( though i can't see who will not take that line ) how about selo's speed of light? 46% <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> or of course stacking horse speed with runspeed buffs ( my favorite ) Hope you manage to suprise the community with pleasant changes

[Reptilianb]

<p>HOORAY FOR WHAT?????????????????????????</p><p>WE'VE BEEN NERFED MORE [Removed for Content]</p>

[Emerix]

<p>Ehh ? Where please . this GU will only make us better . not much but better .  </p><p></p><p></p><p>Reptilianboy wrote: </p><blockquote><p>HOORAY FOR WHAT?????????????????????????</p><p>WE'VE BEEN NERFED MORE [Removed for Content]</p></blockquote>

[Mentla]

After being chain [Removed for Content] in KoS last night while getting 100% resists in most fights I officially retired my troob. Nothing here makes me want to change this.

[nirm]

<cite>Frigid2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hooray?</p><p>I left this game for months because the Troubador class is so busted.  Poor DPS and even worse survivability made it frustrating to try and solo anything.</p><p>I can barely take on one up arrows a couple of levels above me.  Usually I have to run.  Double or triple arrows?  No chance in hell.  And I'm not going to sit there and waste my time to mez/nuke or try to snare when it never holds and I have to run through packs of mobs.  And charm is a giant waste of space.</p><p>I got really tired of seeing TANK classes or other DPS classes walk up to mobs I can barely handle and not even get put down into yellow in health and often enough, they could take on multiples of those mobs.  </p><p>I came back and the class STILL hasn't improved.  Our buffs are nice, yes - but they still don't put us on par with any other class.</p><p>I know a response to this will be "then you shouldn't have rolled a troub, go roll dps!".</p><p>I enjoy playing the class, but we're some red-headed stepchild hybrid that got the shaft on everything.  Either nerf everyone else, or buff us.  I get tired of being the experiment that isn't working.</p></blockquote>Totally agree with this post.  I've played a Troub since before release and have loved playing him up until the big Mez/Charm nerf.  I really wish they would take a stand on what they plan on doing to the class and actually do it. Anyone from test got any results from the changes?

[Novusod]

I think Bards should be able to continue to do auto attack damage while casting. This makes sense from a lore perspective that bards don't need their hands to sing up a note.

[Nainitsuj]

<cite>Milaevo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Run speed - Who spent the points to max harbinger's rather then taking 2 end abilities in KoS?, so with having to spend 22 pts in the WIS line to get DKTM this allows a few more pts for harbingers, Allegro(my choice) or Harmonizing Shot. And with the other run buffs, mystic, being scaled down to their intended amount we DO RUN faster then other classes in the game. </blockquote> Mystic - SoW 20% + 5 AA = 45% run speed | 45% + Jboots = 55% Bards - Selo's 38% + 8 AA = 46% run speed | 46% + Jboots = 56% <p>Mystic - 8 total AA spent | SoW obtained at lvl 13 Bards - 16 total AA spent | Final Selo's obtained at lvl 55</p><p>Do you get it now?</p>

[Spider]

<cite>Frigid2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hooray?</p><p><b>I left this game for months because the Troubador class is so busted.  Poor DPS and even worse survivability made it frustrating to try and solo anything.</b></p><p><b>I can barely take on one up arrows a couple of levels above me.  Usually I have to run.  Double or triple arrows?  No chance in hell.  And I'm not going to sit there and waste my time to mez/nuke or try to snare when it never holds and I have to run through packs of mobs.  And charm is a giant waste of space.</b></p><p>I got really tired of seeing TANK classes or other DPS classes walk up to mobs I can barely handle and not even get put down into yellow in health and often enough, they could take on multiples of those mobs.  </p><p>I came back and the class STILL hasn't improved.  Our buffs are nice, yes - but they still don't put us on par with any other class.</p><p>I know a response to this will be "then you shouldn't have rolled a troub, go roll dps!".</p><p>I enjoy playing the class, but we're some red-headed stepchild hybrid that got the shaft on everything.  Either nerf everyone else, or buff us.  I get tired of being the experiment that isn't working.</p></blockquote> wow people like you amuse me .. seriously i dont know what your doing wrong but man are u doing REALY REALY WRONG  because personaly i can solo green ^^^ NAMES with little to no problem and just a little bit of timing and planing

[Frigid2000]

People like you amuse me as well.  Too deluded to face simple facts.

[Spider]

<cite>Frigid2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote>People like you amuse me as well.  Too deluded to face simple facts.</blockquote><p> im deluded because me and every troub i know on my server can do what u seem to have such a hard time with ? </p><p>lol now THAT S funny </p><p>why do i get the feeling your horribly geared in scout gear with jack for int instead of being geared like a BARD </p><p>which means main focus on INT second on str and the rest = among agi , stam ,wis </p><p>your most likely sitting in all str,sta,agi gear wondering why your bard spells suck soo horribly not stopping to think it might be because of your 20 int and 800 str,and agi </p><p>im betting you probably started your troub out thinking oh cool a different kinda scout rather than the reality a CASTER that can CAST on the run and wear chain </p><p>get a life man learn the class then come back and talk to me </p>

[Cynnigig]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>im betting you probably started your troub out thinking oh cool a different kinda scout rather than the reality a CASTER that can CAST on the run and wear chain </p></blockquote> Inspecting random troubadours on the server, I expect this is the problem quite a few troubadours have.

[Novusod]

<cite>Cynnigig wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>im betting you probably started your troub out thinking oh cool a different kinda scout rather than the reality a CASTER that can CAST on the run and wear chain </p></blockquote> Inspecting random troubadours on the server, I expect this is the problem quite a few troubadours have.</blockquote>I see the same thing. Player after player gimping themselves with the wrong equipment and then complaining how the class is weak. Also we have a wizdom and int buff. Buy it's master I for 50 gold and use it! The fact that I got the critical spell for so cheap tells me people just don't know how to play the class. I suspect if we were named "Battle Mage" but our spells and combat arts did exactly the same thing no one would have problems. They would think CASTER and max their INT like they are supposed to.

[ReturnOfMadness]

and since when are YOU mr know it all? i buff myself over 700 int with fair ease, and still my spells are plain crap, take way to long to cast and do way to little damage for the cast time.. furthermore we DONT buff wis and we DONT buff int consistantly except for ourselves (PotM aint on always so shush) combat arts use strength so int is totally useless there, and again way to little damage compared to other scout classes taken into our limited NOTICABLE stuff we add to a group. and another thing LOL at battlemage we are no freaking mage, were -.-ing scouts and behave like one ya NEED strength as much as ya need int, simply cause it does as much damage overtime on combat arts (unless ur stupid) as spells do, besides we ARE  gimped, yeah i can solo yellow to orange heroic nameds if i want and got enough time for it, but whuts the bloody joy about that? id rather bring something significant to a group

[Pogopuschel]

I was about to say since when do we a) buff WIS and b) use the self-buff when not soloing? If I wanted a caster, I would have rolled a caster. It's a fact for my char that I do more damage with spells than with CAs. Is this still a SCOUT?

[ForgottenFoundling]

<p>spider - make level cap, then talk about how effective the troubador is</p><p> Our end game scaling sucks.  That's the plain truth.</p><p> I'm happy for the boosts that we're getting because I feel we're underpowered.</p><p>I am SHOCKED TO ALL HELL that they're still making us pay concentration for our "stance".  Troub self buff should buff melee a little and the dirge one should buff casting skills.  This should be a free buff that is in no way equal to the "stances" of EVERY OTHER non-bard melee class (since they figure we're too [Removed for Content] to have them).</p>

[Spider]

<cite>ReturnOfMadness wrote:</cite><blockquote>and since when are YOU mr know it all? i buff myself over 700 int with fair ease, and still my spells are plain crap, take way to long to cast and do way to little damage for the cast time.. furthermore we DONT buff wis and we DONT buff int consistantly except for ourselves (PotM aint on always so shush) combat arts use strength so int is totally useless there, and again way to little damage compared to other scout classes taken into our limited NOTICABLE stuff we add to a group. and another thing LOL at battlemage we are no freaking mage, <b>were -.-ing scouts and behave like one ya NEED strength as much as ya need int,</b> simply cause it does as much damage overtime on combat arts (unless ur stupid) as spells do, besides we ARE  gimped, yeah i can solo yellow to orange heroic nameds if i want and got enough time for it, but whuts the bloody joy about that? id rather bring something significant to a group </blockquote><p> wow further proff that your an illiterate [Removed for Content] thanks </p><p>try reading next time chief i stated QUITE CLEARLY INT AND STR are our MOST important stats </p><p>if we were SCOUTS as u say it would be STR and AGI </p><p>but were NOT SCOUTS were CASTERS with some SCOUT SKILLS </p>

[Pogopuschel]

Last time I checked Troubadour was a scout subclass, maybe my EQ2 manual is wrong then. Last time I checked you are nowhere near Level 70 whereas complaints are mainly about Troubadour at T6+. So, with all due respect, shut up. I admit I know nothing about T5 PvP. Please admit that you don't know as much as we "whiners" know about T7 PvE.

[ReturnOfMadness]

<blockquote>and since when are YOU mr know it all? i buff myself over 700 int with fair ease, and still my spells are plain crap, take way to long to cast and do way to little damage for the cast time.. furthermore we DONT buff wis and we DONT buff int consistantly except for ourselves (PotM aint on always so shush) combat arts use strength so int is totally useless there, and again way to little damage compared to other scout classes taken into our limited NOTICABLE stuff we add to a group. and another thing LOL at battlemage we are no freaking mage, <b>were -.-ing scouts and behave like one ya NEED strength as much as ya need int,</b> simply cause it does as much damage overtime on combat arts (unless ur stupid) as spells do, besides we ARE  gimped, yeah i can solo yellow to orange heroic nameds if i want and got enough time for it, but whuts the bloody joy about that? id rather bring something significant to a group </blockquote><p> wow further proff that your an illiterate [Removed for Content] thanks </p><p>try reading next time chief i stated QUITE CLEARLY INT AND STR are our MOST important stats </p><p>if we were SCOUTS as u say it would be STR and AGI </p><p>but were NOT SCOUTS were CASTERS with some SCOUT SKILLS</p> <p>lol ya cant even defend urself decently enough and start shouting out names, yeah right not scouts, that is why we can cast on the run ehh? NO MAGE can do so, yeah that is why we can bump into stealth whitin moments and come out of it with a fairly painfull (still way to weak) attack, yeah taht is why we got more combat arts as spells yeah your sooo right mr know it all</p> sigh idiot <div align="right"> </div>

[Scarrlette]

<p>Re:  [Removed for Content]</p><p>Could we manage to compose a post WITHOUT the insults?  I know it's hard, but I swear, it is possible and we'd really appreciate it.</p>

[Cuz]

Spider has proven time and time again he can't disagree with others without resulting to name calling. As for the "upgrades" the only noticeable change is the one to our AoE. Lets face our AoE capabilities is about at a level 30 swashbuckler if we don't use PotM. Also I've seen in other threads that I'm not the only one that remembers one of the devs stating that the bards already had the highest auto attack of the scouts. So no idea what this increase to make us equal to others means. To be kind, I'm glad at all the effort that was put to improve the troub class. It's really heart warming. Not one post in our forums, changes that took a whole 5 minutes to implement. Thanks.

[Spider]

<cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Spider has proven time and time again he can't disagree with others without resulting to name calling. As for the "upgrades" the only noticeable change is the one to our AoE. Lets face our AoE capabilities is about at a level 30 swashbuckler if we don't use PotM. Also I've seen in other threads that I'm not the only one that remembers one of the devs stating that the bards already had the highest auto attack of the scouts. So no idea what this increase to make us equal to others means. To be kind, I'm glad at all the effort that was put to improve the troub class. It's really heart warming. Not one post in our forums, changes that took a whole 5 minutes to implement. Thanks. </blockquote><p> oh golly geee forgive me for being passionate about my class and also for responding in kind to other peoples demeaning comments </p><p>to the ur not 70 crowd he guess what i KNOW im not 70 </p><p>ya wanna take a guess WHY im not 70 ??? because i KNOW it has some issues </p><p>unlike some folks i CAN read and LEARN  i dont need to powergrind to 70 to read and study the class and have a deep understanding of it </p><p>i dont have to powergrind to 70 to sit and talk about all aspects of it with all the lvl 70 troubs on my server  from pvpers to raiders, to regular pve  ive got a VERY strong grasp on our strenghts and our weaknesses in every case  </p><p>unlike some people i dont have to learn by doing it myself i CAN quite well learn from reading ,studiing , and discussion  </p><p>to the were a scout class diehards </p><p>yes i know weve got scout skills ive never said we didnt , why ? because WERE HYBRIDS </p><p>but if we were true scouts like u claim one we WOULDNT have SPELLS!!!!!! </p><p> 2 we WOULD ahve a bunch of BIG damage sneak attacks which we dont </p><p>were hybrids we ARE a cast on teh fly MAGE with SOME scout skills  and its funny that the ones that think were just scouts are the ones that make the biggest complaints about the class </p><p>i mean cmon can we use a little common sense here folks ??? heres a simple formula for you </p><p>IF A=scout      and B = caster </p><p>And A has the most complaints about the class </p><p>then B MUST be correct </p><p>its simple common since folks  </p>

[ReturnOfMadness]

lol just ignore spider he aint got ANYTHING constructive to add and his statements are well ignorant at best... anyways to get back at the LU32 things, on tests things are things still changing at a fairly high breakneck pace, and i can almost say with 99% surity (sp?) that our combat arts as well as buffs/spells and debuffs are getting a proper boost. So just hang in there will try to keep ya guys updated but still lvling my troub in there (test that is)

[Cuz]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Spider has proven time and time again he can't disagree with others without resulting to name calling. As for the "upgrades" the only noticeable change is the one to our AoE. Lets face our AoE capabilities is about at a level 30 swashbuckler if we don't use PotM. Also I've seen in other threads that I'm not the only one that remembers one of the devs stating that the bards already had the highest auto attack of the scouts. So no idea what this increase to make us equal to others means. To be kind, I'm glad at all the effort that was put to improve the troub class. It's really heart warming. Not one post in our forums, changes that took a whole 5 minutes to implement. Thanks. </blockquote><p> oh golly geee forgive me for being passionate about my class and also for responding in kind to other peoples demeaning comments </p><p>to the ur not 70 crowd he guess what i KNOW im not 70 </p><p>ya wanna take a guess WHY im not 70 ??? because i KNOW it has some issues </p><p>unlike some folks i CAN read and LEARN  i dont need to powergrind to 70 to read and study the class and have a deep understanding of it </p><p>i dont have to powergrind to 70 to sit and talk about all aspects of it with all the lvl 70 troubs on my server  from pvpers to raiders, to regular pve  ive got a VERY strong grasp on our strenghts and our weaknesses in every case  </p><p>unlike some people i dont have to learn by doing it myself i CAN quite well learn from reading ,studiing , and discussion  </p><p>to the were a scout class diehards </p><p>yes i know weve got scout skills ive never said we didnt , why ? because WERE HYBRIDS </p><p>but if we were true scouts like u claim one we WOULDNT have SPELLS!!!!!! </p><p> 2 we WOULD ahve a bunch of BIG damage sneak attacks which we dont </p><p>were hybrids we ARE a cast on teh fly MAGE with SOME scout skills  and its funny that the ones that think were just scouts are the ones that make the biggest complaints about the class </p><p>i mean cmon can we use a little common sense here folks ??? heres a simple formula for you </p><p>IF A=scout      and B = caster </p><p>And A has the most complaints about the class </p><p>then B MUST be correct </p><p>its simple common since folks  </p></blockquote> How many cast on the fly spells do we have? 2 direct damage spells. 1 DoT / debuff. And a few more debuffs. We actually have more melee abilities than cast on the fly mage abilities.

[ReturnOfMadness]

guessing ya forgetting our powerdrain (= damage spell too, and using it a ton) so we got 3 direct damage spells, 1 dot, and 2 debuffs atm (3 when zanders get fixed) and that interupt spell thingy which i aint sure what to count it under, than 1 ranged combat art, 2 if ya went down the wis line and a 5 or 6 combat arts i think

[Emerix]

Steal essence you cannot cast while running .

[ReturnOfMadness]

ahh dohh, and i forgot another one ya cant cast while running <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> elis (annoying spell that is sigh)

[pikeymoose]

<p>unlike some people i dont have to learn by doing it myself i CAN quite well learn from reading ,studiing , and discussion  </p><p>This is the voice of inexperience..........(or the unemployed)</p><p>I'll keep reseaching prison life and get back to you dudes that have been doing 30 years hard time, while I was at home reseaching...and I'll get back to you with what prison life is like.</p><p>Spider, you are the reason I don't often come and read if our class has been fixed yet.  .....you have no grip on reality.  Troubadors are broken...thats why we all rerolled a few weeks or months after hitting 70.  Cheers to all the 70s with their t7 masters who don't play this class anymore....maybe someday it will be fixed.</p><p>Moose</p>

[Emerix]

<cite>pikeymoose wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>unlike some people i dont have to learn by doing it myself i CAN quite well learn from reading ,studiing , and discussion  </p><p>This is the voice of inexperience..........(or the unemployed)</p><p>I'll keep reseaching prison life and get back to you dudes that have been doing 30 years hard time, while I was at home reseaching...and I'll get back to you with what prison life is like.</p><p>Spider, you are the reason I don't often come and read if our class has been fixed yet.  .....you have no grip on reality.  Troubadors are broken...thats why we all rerolled a few weeks or months after hitting 70.  Cheers to all the 70s with their t7 masters who don't play this class anymore....maybe someday it will be fixed.</p><p>Moose</p></blockquote><p>While i dont agree with how Spider wrote what he wrote i wouldnt really say Troubys are broken .  We could use some love but i dont see us as broken really . Oh hey and i didnt reroll . And i do have almost all masters and stuff . and i do enjoy the class . </p><p>Still some love would do the class good .</p><p>And less love to dirges . </p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> While i dont agree with how Spider wrote what he wrote i wouldnt really say > Troubys are broken .  We could use some love but i dont see us as broken really .</p><p>If you both agree that the troubs could use some love, it doesn't make sense to argue about whether they are broken, IMO. Better to agree that they could use some love.</p>

[ReturnOfMadness]

<cite>Emerix wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>pikeymoose wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>unlike some people i dont have to learn by doing it myself i CAN quite well learn from reading ,studiing , and discussion  </p><p>This is the voice of inexperience..........(or the unemployed)</p><p>I'll keep reseaching prison life and get back to you dudes that have been doing 30 years hard time, while I was at home reseaching...and I'll get back to you with what prison life is like.</p><p>Spider, you are the reason I don't often come and read if our class has been fixed yet.  .....you have no grip on reality.  Troubadors are broken...thats why we all rerolled a few weeks or months after hitting 70.  Cheers to all the 70s with their t7 masters who don't play this class anymore....maybe someday it will be fixed.</p><p>Moose</p></blockquote><p>While i dont agree with how Spider wrote what he wrote i wouldnt really say Troubys are broken .  We could use some love but i dont see us as broken really . Oh hey and i didnt reroll . And i do have almost all masters and stuff . and i do enjoy the class . </p><p>Still some love would do the class good .</p><p>And less love to dirges . </p></blockquote>as a first NOT EVERYONE rerolled, i still like my troub regardless if ya do or dont, and yeah they arent really broken their dps, and buff/debuff scaling is simply flawed and should get fixed which it will in LU32 (with a  lil bit of luck). and same as the above poster, am mostly masterd too, and happy i am, saves me alot of headaches at times

[Vraneth]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you both agree that the troubs could use some love, it doesn't make sense to argue about whether they are broken, IMO. Better to agree that they could use some love.</blockquote><p> From my point of view,yes we can all agree that we could use some love, but whenever I come here to see what people actually think needs fixes I cry.</p><p>I see people whining forever about run speed, mezz timers and charms, just cope with the fact that we aren't chanters and that runspeed actually doesn't mean jack all, go get a horse for crying out loud, 50% is well enough as it is. What we need fixed lies well beyond the nifty things that really aren't that useful but more "fun toys" as I see it.</p><p>What we need is mostly scaling fixes and some spell fixes, currently I'm happy playing my class I just want us to scale a bit better.</p><p>Implement all the changes in LU32  but then also fix Guviena's, Sandra's, PotM (to be more in line with CoB), Daeli's ( no concentration slot, reduced stats in exchange for +melee skills), Bellow,  and as I can't put enough emphasis on this fix our scaling issues. If we could get that, I'd be much more happy about playing every day. </p><p>I will probobly be corrected ( or get stuff added to this) but this, as I see it, are the main issues there is ATM.</p>

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>Vraneth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you both agree that the troubs could use some love, it doesn't make sense to argue about whether they are broken, IMO. Better to agree that they could use some love.</blockquote><p> From my point of view,yes we can all agree that we could use some love, but whenever I come here to see what people actually think needs fixes I cry.</p><p>I see people whining forever about run speed, mezz timers and charms, just cope with the fact that we aren't chanters and that runspeed actually doesn't mean jack all, go get a horse for crying out loud, 50% is well enough as it is. What we need fixed lies well beyond the nifty things that really aren't that useful but more "fun toys" as I see it.</p><p>What we need is mostly scaling fixes and some spell fixes, currently I'm happy playing my class I just want us to scale a bit better.</p><p>Implement all the changes in LU32  but then also fix Guviena's, Sandra's, PotM (to be more in line with CoB), Daeli's ( no concentration slot, reduced stats in exchange for +melee skills), Bellow,  and as I can't put enough emphasis on this fix our scaling issues. If we could get that, I'd be much more happy about playing every day. </p><p>I will probobly be corrected ( or get stuff added to this) but this, as I see it, are the main issues there is ATM.</p></blockquote>Vraneth wrote: Implement all the changes in LU32  but then also fix Guviena's, Sandra's, PotM (to be more in line with CoB), Daeli's ( no concentration slot, reduced stats in exchange for +melee skills), Bellow,  and as I can't put enough emphasis on this fix our scaling issues. If we could get that, I'd be much more happy about playing every day.  In the end, both Guviena's and Sandra's are part of the scaling issue... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Why people ask for the run speed "fix": This is where this class was better than every other cl ass. The people who want faster run speed are thos e looking for something that defines this class, t hat comes to mind asap when you hear "Troubadour in EQ2". There's no such thing at the moment, not even ma na regen (see: chanters). Generally, I agree with you, and even more generally I think there's something seriously wrong with a class when you get better dps from procs than from using CAs that in effect do nothing but damage.

[Faelgalad]

<p>Agree, SOE has succeded in doing nothing. </p><p>Runspeed is the last point on a long list. </p><p> Hooray, we get nothing!</p><p>/cheer</p><p>As with my Paladin, the true solution for playing Paladin/Troubadur seems to play Vanguard <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Vraneth]

<cite>Pogopuschel wrote:</cite><blockquote>Vranrth wrote: In the end, both Guviena's and Sandra's are part of the scaling issue... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> Well as yes, Guviena's is somewhat a scaling issue, but it is also a remnant of T5. The powerdrain part needs to be converted in damage, this in addition to scaling better.</p><p>Same goes for Sandras really, scale it up to T7 damage and for christ sake remove that stifle for even more damage.</p><p>the way that I see it, it's not only scaling issues with these spells but also other issues.  </p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<cite>Vraneth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you both agree that the troubs could use some love, it doesn't make sense to argue about whether they are broken, IMO. Better to agree that they could use some love.</blockquote><p>What we need is mostly scaling fixes and some spell fixes, currently I'm happy playing my class I just want us to scale a bit better.</p><p>Implement all the changes in LU32  but then also fix <b>Guviena's, Sandra's, PotM (to be more in line with CoB</b>), <b>Daeli's ( no concentration slot, reduced stats in exchange for +melee skills</b>), Bellow,  and as I can't put enough emphasis on this fix our scaling issues. If we could get that, I'd be much more happy about playing every day. </p></blockquote><p>I completely agree with the above.  I think the Daeli's part will be HUGE for improving the class in all situations.  We'll lose a bit of avoidance and damage with lesser stats, but the melee skills will go a long way for improving melee aspects of the class and the lack of concentration would allow another spell to be utilized.</p><p>PotM drops dps unless you're fighting a large group.  Granted it can drastically improve a caster groups damage output, but the nature of the spell causes some casters to die due to increased/unpredictable aggro from the spell.  I'd be fine if it rooted us, but allow us to melee FFS!  It's not like the dirge version stops them from casting spells... </p>

[Mildavyn]

I'm fine with the daze... what annoys me is that i cant move... at all, ever, with it up. Then again, CoB doesn't daze/root the dirges, why should we be getting hit with those when they arent? CoB is far and away more powerful than PotM just because it procs off every melee strike, and scouts hit ALOT more often than anyone can cast a spell.

[Gungo]

<p>It sure would be nice though if they fixed</p><p>Self agil/int buff should cost no concentration   (self buff for both bards really)</p><p>PoM should not stop troubador mele attack or root    </p><p>and fixed power drains to be useful</p>

[Antipalad]

Power drain? Power drain is a remnant from tier 5, by all means keep that as is for the PvP crowd, but please do something about it on PvE. Power drain serves NO PURPOSE AT ALL on PvE. Example: Sandra's (not logged in, can't remember exact name), lvl 57ish master, will LOWER my dmg if I use it. Power drain portion of this combat art MAY have made up for that if we were still playing pre LU13. So my take on LU32: Ok, minor tweaks, nothing whatsoever will be fixed. We'll still be using that one noticeable debuff, toss up the correct buffs, then press the same 5 buttons to DPS. Sorry, but this is no fix as to how we play as was stated. Sony, way to go on ignoring the playerbase, "fixes" show that the people in charge of the bard classes have no idea how they play in reality. (Edited to add in rants etc.)

[Antryg Mistrose]

Why do people keep asking for a no-concentration self-buff?  like thats ever going to happen. Classes that have stances trade off offence for defence, exactly what our buffs do for the whole group. A more reasonable request would be for concentrationless power/hate buffs, as thats what enchanters get. (okay Illusionist's dehate buff takes a conc slot per beneficiary, but its also a decent spell proc). My pet peeve is Precision of the Maestro's daze - thats going to hurt even more with autoattack going up. 30sec of just spell damage.

[Mildavyn]

Make the root go away!! I don't care if my self-buff takes conc. I don't care that we don't get stances, i just want PotM to NOT daze and root me.

[Emerix]

<cite>Mildavyn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Make the root go away!! I don't care if my self-buff takes conc. I don't care that we don't get stances, i just want PotM to NOT daze and root me.</blockquote><p> /agree . Thats the most important thing that should be changed . I would even go as far and say they should give POM an interupt like the dirge one has .</p><p>I just dont see why the average dirge cant get a decent parse altough their spellsand CAs do 25 % more damage than the trouby stuff . But since they have the clear damage bonus allready and debuffs that are actually worth something (attack speed debuffs) they should at least take away the daze and root from  POM . </p><p> Then again . they should merge both classes call them bard and then bards would be fixed .</p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>Why do people keep asking for a no-concentration self-buff?  like thats ever going to happen. Classes that have stances trade off offence for defence, exactly what our buffs do for the whole group. A more reasonable request would be for concentrationless power/hate buffs, as thats what enchanters get. (okay Illusionist's dehate buff takes a conc slot per beneficiary, but its also a decent spell proc). My pet peeve is Precision of the Maestro's daze - thats going to hurt even more with autoattack going up. 30sec of just spell damage. </blockquote><p> People keep asking for a no-concentration self-buff because we are a concentration heavy class.  We DON'T have crap for defensive buffs compared to ANY classes def buff.  Conversely, we don't have much at all compared to an offensive stance either.  </p><p> Now, think of the time that offensive stances are used - groups and raids for all but the MT and OT.  It's okay to lose defense in this case.  Now, in these same situations, we have to use our concentration to buff the group.  WE get the shaft and no other melee class does (except dirges, our fellow bards).</p><p> In addition to this, we cannot hit the side of a barn because of the changes they've made to melee skills...</p>

[missing_peace]

<p>/rant</p><p>Well, the game update is scheduled for wednesday, 28th.  This means that they are done with bards.</p><p>They did not address any achievement issues such as the useless bladeturn (that is Group songs that increase avoidance improved by 2%, NOT the AoE skill.  That one is Bladedance) and the weak harmonizing shot.  Can anyone who took coin toss please explain the change?  They did not address the wanted runspeed issue (bards are the same as before and they actually nerfed another class.)  They did not even bother to look at PoTM or Requiem of Reflection.  The self buff was altered, but not in a way to actually make up for the shortcomings stemming from the previous combat change.  The resistance buffs were enhanced, but does this matter much when players are already reaching the dimishing returns cap without it?</p><p>A possible boost to auto attack damage was included, but bards should never have been below other scouts in this area in the first place.  Maybe the faster cast time on Alin's will make it a little better, but the faster time also means that it will actually proc less!  Probably a net gain at least.</p><p>Tell me how the situation with this class has changed.  Explain to me why another class had to be nerfed rather than giving bards what they rightfully deserved.  The same issues that existed before this update will exist after this update.</p><p>Except for Zander's... thank you for fixing something that has been broken since Desert of Flames was released.</p><p>My anger has now been spent on this useless rant that will make no difference at all.  Sometimes, you just have to unload.</p>

[Spider]

<p>lol i must say i love some of the attidues here </p><p>all i hear is troubs suck and are broken and anyone that ACCAULY enjoys there troub is flamed to all hell </p><p>its simple EVERY CLASS can use some love in one area or another </p><p>EVERY CLASS has some issues But it in no way means were broken </p><p>we can acomplish a LOT in game most anythign anyone else can do </p><p>somethigns take longer others dont so what </p><p>YES we need the scaling at higher lvls tweaked a bit it doesnt mean were broken or unplayable just taht we could be better </p><p>so you know what all of you ignorent hypocries can flame me all you want but the simple trouth is theres a LOT of people that LOVE there  troubs and have FUN on them so get over yourselves because your not the only ones with valid opionions </p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> all i hear is troubs suck and are broken and anyone that > ACCAULY enjoys there troub is flamed to all hell </p><p>You must have read a different thread than the one I have been reading. I did not come away from this thread with that opinion at all. I saw people concernd with the lack of attentin given to a class that could use it.</p><p>> EVERY CLASS has some issues But it in no way means were broken </p><p>I agree, and I think most people here do, that the troubadour is not "broken." So you're defeating a strawman there.</p><p>> so you know what all of you ignorent hypocries can flame me all you want</p><p>It seems to me you are the one flaming here. I am not ignorant, I don't feel that I am being hypocritical, nor do I wish to flame you. I am glad you enjoy your troub.</p>

[Martrae]

Melling, Do you ever post anything that's not half-incoherent rambling about how everyone else (who've played MUCH longer than your l33t 8 months of play) is ignorant? Seriously, the bard (and mystic) portion of this patch blows and no amount of sunshine blown up my fanny will change that.

[Spider]

Breanut@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote>Melling, Do you ever post anything that's not half-incoherent rambling about how everyone else (who've played MUCH longer than your l33t 8 months of play) is ignorant? Seriously, the bard (and mystic) portion of this patch blows and no amount of sunshine blown up my fanny will change that. </blockquote><p> my point exactly </p><p>you comment on my incoherant rambling but do so by insulting my play time and my inteligence and why ? simply because i Disagree with you </p><p>then you wonder why i get angry in my posts ? get a clue chief YOU and others like you are the ones with the problems here , not I . You demean anyone that doesnt agree with you w/o every listening or caring to try and understand what there saying your wannbie elietist attidue is disgusting  and pathetic </p><p>who in the hell do u think u are  huh ? i mean realy so u played longer than me WOOHOO what do want a cookie ?</p><p> does it make you smarter than me ? NO ! does it make you more successfull in life ? NO! </p><p>Does s give you mroe insight into the mysteries of the universe ? NO! so stop trying to act like your some special being with all the answers </p><p>your no better than   anyone else on good ole planet earth bro so come down off your high horse and get with the program </p>

[Martrae]

Oh honey, thank you for proving my point.

[Cuz]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>Breanut@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote>Melling, Do you ever post anything that's not half-incoherent rambling about how everyone else (who've played MUCH longer than your l33t 8 months of play) is ignorant? Seriously, the bard (and mystic) portion of this patch blows and no amount of sunshine blown up my fanny will change that. </blockquote><p> my point exactly </p><p><span style="color: #cc0000">you comment on my incoherant rambling but do so by insulting my play time and my inteligence and why ? simply because i Disagree with you</span> </p><p>then you wonder why i get angry in my posts ? get a clue chief YOU and others like you are the ones with the problems here , not I . You demean anyone that doesnt agree with you w/o every listening or caring to try and understand what there saying your wannbie elietist attidue is disgusting  and pathetic </p><p>who in the hell do u think u are  huh ? i mean realy so u played longer than me WOOHOO what do want a cookie ?</p><p> does it make you smarter than me ? NO ! does it make you more successfull in life ? NO! </p><p>Does s give you mroe insight into the mysteries of the universe ? NO! so stop trying to act like your some special being with all the answers </p><p>your no better than   anyone else on good ole planet earth bro so come down off your high horse and get with the program </p></blockquote> Pot - Kettle.

[Spider]

Breanut@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote>Oh honey, thank you for proving my point. </blockquote><p> first thigns first im not a honey  got it ? im a guy </p><p>ive always been a guy </p><p>and always will be</p><p>if you knew anythigna bout me which you dont  you wouldn know that my toons are named in memorial of my duaghter that was stillborn several years ago  </p><p>secondly i havent proved any point but my own </p><p>even with this post you continue to be a condicending [Removed for Content]  who seems to think hes special </p><p>get over yourself</p><p>and b4 u delve into trashing my grammar and typing next ( because i can soo see it headint that way ) be sure to read the post in my sig  </p><p>in short grow up man </p>

[Cuz]

Oh Spider, this is what you do 90% of the time.

[Martrae]

ROFL.... Honey, it's ok if I call you honey. Not all gamers are guys you know. Why would I care to know anything about you? You're a blustering fool who's posts would be improved significantly if you'd just say "+1" and be done with it. Yay, you love the class and think a bluebird's gonna land on your shoulder the moment you start to 'play' your instruments. Yay, you think every single other person person who's posted something negative about this patch is an idiot (that's everyone but you btw). The rest of us have played for significantly longer and have a more realistic idea of how the class is and we know what a crock of (bleeped word) this patch is in regards to bards.

[Spider]

Breanut@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote>ROFL.... Honey, it's ok if I call you honey. Not all gamers are guys you know. Why would I care to know anything about you? You're a blustering fool who's posts would be improved significantly if you'd just say "+1" and be done with it. Yay, you love the class and think a bluebird's gonna land on your shoulder the moment you start to 'play' your instruments. Yay, you think every single other person person who's posted something negative about this patch is an idiot (that's everyone but you btw). The rest of us have played for significantly longer and have a more realistic idea of how the class is and we know what a crock of (bleeped word) this patch is in regards to bards. </blockquote><p> thansk yet again for proving my point and ignoreing atleast 5-10 other posters in this thread alone who /GASP DISARGEE with you About the new patch and troubs in general </p><p>and all your extra time playing a troub has done is make you BITTER about how troubs USED to be so much so that u cant see the forrest throught eh trees and gain an understanding that were a good solid class that a lot of people ENJOY playing </p>

[Pogopuschel]

Summing up: Most complaints are from T7 raiders, mostly about a) scaling and b) active part of the bard for the most part is spamming CAs/spells cause there's nothing else to do, yet compared to other classes in the game this active part makes so little difference because of a). T7 is not T5, <b>especially</b> not for bards. Get a clue. PS: Is the post preview function as well hidden as the login-button in these boards, or is there just none? <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Emerix]

Looking at the childish argueing here i understand why SOE can't be bothered to fix this class .

[Martrae]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>Breanut@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote>ROFL.... Honey, it's ok if I call you honey. Not all gamers are guys you know. Why would I care to know anything about you? You're a blustering fool who's posts would be improved significantly if you'd just say "+1" and be done with it. Yay, you love the class and think a bluebird's gonna land on your shoulder the moment you start to 'play' your instruments. Yay, you think every single other person person who's posted something negative about this patch is an idiot (that's everyone but you btw). The rest of us have played for significantly longer and have a more realistic idea of how the class is and we know what a crock of (bleeped word) this patch is in regards to bards. </blockquote><p> thansk yet again for proving my point and ignoreing atleast 5-10 other posters in this thread alone who /GASP DISARGEE with you About the new patch and troubs in general </p><p>and all your extra time playing a troub has done is make you BITTER about how troubs USED to be so much so that u cant see the forrest throught eh trees and gain an understanding that were a good solid class that a lot of people ENJOY playing </p></blockquote> Actually, no, I'm not bitter about how the class used to be. I'm merely legitimately unhappy with the current patch and the fact that all Lockeye would comment on is that the run speed nerf was intended.

[Trabbart]

Is there anyway to put someone on /ignore, forum wise? I really do NOT ever want to see another "Spider" post.

[Martrae]

nm....

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> understanding that were a good solid class that a lot of people ENJOY playing </p><p>Unfortunately you are wrong. It's a matter of documented fact that FEW people enjoy playing the troubadour. In fact, the troubadour is the class in the game that the FEWEST people play. You can dispute why, but don't say "a lot of people" when its simply not true.</p><p>I stand with Martrae as "legitimately unhappy with the current patch and the fact that all Lockeye would comment on is that the run speed nerf was intended." Nevertheless, I enjoy my troub, because EQ2 is a fun game in general. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I just enjoy other classes more.</p>

[Scorched]

<p>I'm from the Dirge side of the tracks, but some of the same things are going on over there. We were definitely shafted when it comes to run speed. The devs have made it quite evident that they don't consider run speed to be a bard class-defining trait.</p><p>As for the people saying they have so many problems soloing, if you are really that into soloing, you need to take something into account that you may not have: AGI. The goal of soloing 1 on 1 with a mob is simple: kill before being killed. There's 2 ways of looking at this: maximizing damage output and minimizing damage taken. I've always been able to solo most mobs just fine, even solod a few group x2 mobs (albeit, quite grey lol). People have asked me how I solo so well, and my answer is simple: AGI. My self buffed AGI, no potions or other mischief involved, is currently 329 at L54. I can still take on yellow cons without much worry of a loss. The mobs just have such a hard time hitting me. Now, I can't speak specifically to the Troubador class itself as I haven't played one so I'm not sure the specific buffs you get, but if you're having problems soloing and others are saying they are not, consider looking into gear that will maximize your ability to do so. Just remember, gearing yourself toward soloing may not make you optimally geared toward grouping (maxing AGI will no doubt have an impact on maximizing your INT).</p>

[Cuz]

<cite>Scorched wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm from the Dirge side of the tracks, but some of the same things are going on over there. We were definitely shafted when it comes to run speed. The devs have made it quite evident that they don't consider run speed to be a bard class-defining trait.</p><p>As for the people saying they have so many problems soloing, if you are really that into soloing, you need to take something into account that you may not have: AGI. The goal of soloing 1 on 1 with a mob is simple: kill before being killed. There's 2 ways of looking at this: maximizing damage output and minimizing damage taken. I've always been able to solo most mobs just fine, even solod a few group x2 mobs (albeit, quite grey lol). People have asked me how I solo so well, and my answer is simple: AGI. My self buffed AGI, no potions or other mischief involved, is currently 329 at L54. I can still take on yellow cons without much worry of a loss. The mobs just have such a hard time hitting me. Now, I can't speak specifically to the Troubador class itself as I haven't played one so I'm not sure the specific buffs you get, but if you're having problems soloing and others are saying they are not, consider looking into gear that will maximize your ability to do so. Just remember, gearing yourself toward soloing may not make you optimally geared toward grouping (maxing AGI will no doubt have an impact on maximizing your INT).</p></blockquote> If you want to solo well as a troub take the stam line till the double attack then max it out at 8. Do what ever else you want with your points. If you want to solo well in general, take another class. Actually hell just take another class you'll thank me.

[Trabbart]

<cite>Scorched wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm from the Dirge side of the tracks, but some of the same things are going on over there. We were definitely shafted when it comes to run speed. The devs have made it quite evident that they don't consider run speed to be a bard class-defining trait.</p><p>As for the people saying they have so many problems soloing, if you are really that into soloing, you need to take something into account that you may not have: AGI. The goal of soloing 1 on 1 with a mob is simple: kill before being killed. There's 2 ways of looking at this: maximizing damage output and minimizing damage taken. I've always been able to solo most mobs just fine, even solod a few group x2 mobs (albeit, quite grey lol). People have asked me how I solo so well, and my answer is simple: AGI. My self buffed AGI, no potions or other mischief involved, is currently 329 at <b>L54</b>. I can still take on yellow cons without much worry of a loss. The mobs just have such a hard time hitting me. Now, I can't speak specifically to the Troubador class itself as I haven't played one so I'm not sure the specific buffs you get, but if you're having problems soloing and others are saying they are not, consider looking into gear that will maximize your ability to do so. Just remember, gearing yourself toward soloing may not make you optimally geared toward grouping (maxing AGI will no doubt have an impact on maximizing your INT).</p></blockquote> I cant say much about dirges in comparison to Troubs but you being lev 54 tells me you havent been hit hard by the non scaling issue yet.  That makes it progressively worse to take on anything.

[Spider]

<cite>Scorched wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm from the Dirge side of the tracks, but some of the same things are going on over there. We were definitely shafted when it comes to run speed. The devs have made it quite evident that they don't consider run speed to be a bard class-defining trait.</p><p>As for the people saying they have so many problems soloing, if you are really that into soloing, you need to take something into account that you may not have: AGI. The goal of soloing 1 on 1 with a mob is simple: kill before being killed. There's 2 ways of looking at this: maximizing damage output and minimizing damage taken. I've always been able to solo most mobs just fine, even solod a few group x2 mobs (albeit, quite grey lol). People have asked me how I solo so well, and my answer is simple: AGI. My self buffed AGI, no potions or other mischief involved, is currently 329 at L54. I can still take on yellow cons without much worry of a loss. The mobs just have such a hard time hitting me. Now, I can't speak specifically to the Troubador class itself as I haven't played one so I'm not sure the specific buffs you get, but if you're having problems soloing and others are saying they are not, consider looking into gear that will maximize your ability to do so. Just remember, gearing yourself toward soloing may not make you optimally geared toward grouping (maxing AGI will no doubt have an impact on maximizing your INT).</p></blockquote>might as well not bother posting man unless ur 70 all they will do is trash anything you have to say

[Cuz]

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>might as well not bother posting man unless ur 70 all they will do is trash anything you have to say </blockquote> No, you keep saying that we're wrong and that things are fine, and we keep telling you that until you get to T7 you can't tell us if things are fine in that tier.

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote>might as well not bother posting man unless ur 70 all they will do is trash anything you have to say </blockquote> No, you keep saying that we're wrong and that things are fine, and we keep telling you that until you get to T7 you can't tell us if things are fine in that tier. </blockquote><p> Its much like flying airplanes. I can tell you the basic mechanics behind flight, and I've spoken to and know a few pilots... but I've never flown a plane. Taking my word over that of a pilot would be sheer folly. So it is with you Spider.</p><p>You've heard all about it I'm sure, but until you've actually experienced it, you don't really know whats happening. I was just like you were when i was in t3-5, all optimism and hope. But then i got to level 50... then 55, and my hopes began to dwindle. Then i reached level 70 and was quite frequently killed by other scouts before i could inflict a single point of damage.</p><p>In the lower tiers, you're absolutely right, Troubadors are perfectly fine, and in the hands of someone who knows what to do, they can (and do) kill any class in the game. However, what you are missing, is the knowledge and experience of the Ancient Teachings spells and combat arts. Those, added to some of the AA skills (I'm sure you've seen atleast some of these) make some classes unbeatable for a troubador in a 1v1 situation. </p><p>Just as an aside, when did they nerf the Auditor of Silence necklace? last time i saw it, it procced 9000 (thousand) mental resists on 25% of all mental damage... says 900 (hundred) now. Atleast its much more reasonable, 9k mental resists make us completely useless.</p>

[Novusod]

There are only 11 level 70 PvP troubadors on Vox. One on one a troubador just does not stand a chance against any other class at level 70. If they would fix resists for top level PvP then I would make a PvP troub myself.

[Mildavyn]

<p>Its not a resist problem, its a scaling problem. Most troubadors actualy LOSE DPS by using some of our combat arts. Also, power drain is useless in its current form. </p><p>Spider will say "Kite and you win" but actually that doesn't work. Scouts ALL get better snares than troubs, Tanks have enough HP that their bow auto-attack usually kills me before i can kill them, mages dont care about melee range and just burn you down, and healers can heal while they kill you. Sure, you will occasionally get a kill, get the jump on a mage, manage to interupt a healer every time it tries to cast for long enough to kill them (yeah right) maybe you'll find a tank with a poor bow and low mental resists. But in an equal fight, 1v1, you are almost always going to lose.</p><p>The only way to PvP in T7 as a troubador is to take a group along. they'll love you for the buffs and your ability to completely lock anyone down for almost a minute, and you'll love them because they provide other targets, and let you live for longer than the 5 seconds it takes most brigs/swashies to kill you.</p><p>One thing i will say though... when fighting healers 1v1, bring food/drink. Most healers dont use drinks, because they can heal. If you CHARM the healer though, it will take you both out of combat and let your food/drink go to work. Meanwhile they're still half dead because they dont use food. Its a nice way to heal 3-400 hp every fight.</p>

[Spider]

<cite>Mildavyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Its not a resist problem, its a scaling problem. Most troubadors actualy LOSE DPS by using some of our combat arts. Also, power drain is useless in its current form. </p><p>Spider will say "Kite and you win" but actually that doesn't work. Scouts ALL get better snares than troubs, Tanks have enough HP that their bow auto-attack usually kills me before i can kill them, mages dont care about melee range and just burn you down, and healers can heal while they kill you. Sure, you will occasionally get a kill, get the jump on a mage, manage to interupt a healer every time it tries to cast for long enough to kill them (yeah right) maybe you'll find a tank with a poor bow and low mental resists. But in an equal fight, 1v1, you are almost always going to lose.</p><p>The only way to PvP in T7 as a troubador is to take a group along. they'll love you for the buffs and your ability to completely lock anyone down for almost a minute, and you'll love them because they provide other targets, and let you live for longer than the 5 seconds it takes most brigs/swashies to kill you.</p><p>One thing i will say though... when fighting healers 1v1, bring food/drink. Most healers dont use drinks, because they can heal. If you CHARM the healer though, it will take you both out of combat and let your food/drink go to work. Meanwhile they're still half dead because they dont use food. Its a nice way to heal 3-400 hp every fight.</p></blockquote><p> i use this in conjunction quirons on a regular basis in all 1v1 situations  if im running low on health and it works liek a charm </p><p>also even if they do get some regening in while charmed it still drops there health back to almost exactly waht it was b4 the charm so tehre regening doenstmattter </p><p>and ive never said that everything is FINE at 70 for troubs all ive said is its not completely broken </p><p>and its not unplayable certainly the scaling needs help im not denying that </p><p>and im glad that the necklace got fixed  </p><p>but we do ahve 70 troubs that do pvp on vox and ARE very succsesfull solo ,duo and group inspite of any other issues so it is possible </p><p>and i personaly jsut rolled a new troub that i plan to grind strait through to 70 now just to prove it to u  so hopefully inside of a month or so my new troub fae ( that i jsut betrayed lol ) will be 70 with a bit of work or atleast teir 7 </p>