Will EQ2 get lost in the release of Vanguard?

[Grabbie93]

I left EQ1 after 4 years for WoW.<img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I left WoW after 2 years for Vanguard.<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It's just too unplayable right now, so I heard through the grapevine that EQ2 was polished up and ready to go, I decided to try it..yes, I have spent a lot of cash buying new games and expansions the past 2 months. My husband also!<img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> EQ2 is really impressive, I'm very happy I made the change and want to beat myself for playing that other product for so long, I think back and to be honest I never made the friends in WoW like I did in EQ nor did I have so many fun nights like I did in EQ1. Anyway I hope it's a long journey of good times here. So, just wondering will the Devs forget about EQ2 since the release of Vanguard? I'm sort of scared of that happening. Will the game get dumbed up so little children can play it, like WoW. Will it eventually be a PVP game under the camouflage of having a choice? Will it keep it's original vision and not give in to the mass chimpanzee population? Tell me now, so I can decide if I'm going to stick around.<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Echgar]

<cite>Grabbie93 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, just wondering will the Devs forget about EQ2 since the release of Vanguard? </blockquote>EverQuest II is developed by SOE.  Vanguard is developed by Sigil (a different company).  The development teams are completely different. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Grabbie93]

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grabbie93 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, just wondering will the Devs forget about EQ2 since the release of Vanguard? </blockquote>EverQuest II is developed by SOE.  Vanguard is developed by Sigil (a different company).  The development teams are completely different. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Well, I think we will be sticking around then!<img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jal]

The idea of Vanguard is very impressive and many people want it to be good. Sadly as with most MMO's these days its been released in beta condition. I have it and i have access so i'll keep revisiting it but the way EQ2 is now means we have a far more complete mature game to play and i dont think it'll be forgotten.

[lmhotep]

<p>Seeing ive got station access i did bought vanguard to see what all the fuss was about.</p><p>They promised us a refreshing MMO what many new things never seen before.</p><p>While that might count for some things all i can see in vanguard is a mix of WOW, EQ2, EQ1, SWG and many more mmo`s out of there. What im saying that for me it isnt the new age mmo everyone is speaking about and especialy in its current nasty beta state wich they should be ashamed of its not worth playing it.</p><p>I recently got an invite for the LOTR beta and man even tho that`s still in beta its 100% more finished then vanguard.</p><p>So what im trying to say is: stick with eq2, its indeed amazingly polished and alot of fun to play with a great comunity! What more can someone want<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[gribuz]

Well if you have Station Access Vanguard is almost free except for the box it self <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> For me EQ2 is gonna be main game and Vanguard just something you can jump in on occasionaly, like another errr...alt <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[gi]

<cite>Grabbie93 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I left EQ1 after 4 years for WoW.<img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I left WoW after 2 years for Vanguard.<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It's just too unplayable right now, so I heard through the grapevine that EQ2 was polished up and ready to go, I decided to try it..yes, I have spent a lot of cash buying new games and expansions the past 2 months. My husband also!<img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> EQ2 is really impressive, I'm very happy I made the change and want to beat myself for playing that other product for so long, I think back and to be honest I never made the friends in WoW like I did in EQ nor did I have so many fun nights like I did in EQ1. Anyway I hope it's a long journey of good times here. So, just wondering will the Devs forget about EQ2 since the release of Vanguard? I'm sort of scared of that happening. Will the game get dumbed up so little children can play it, like WoW. Will it eventually be a PVP game under the camouflage of having a choice? Will it keep it's original vision and not give in to the mass chimpanzee population? Tell me now, so I can decide if I'm going to stick around.<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Hello, as others have said, Vanguards dev team is different from EQ2's. I think many are currently trying Vanguard out, however, I do not believe that most will stay, although the idea of a single world with no zoning is very appealing, the Graphics engine is very old by todays standards, and most people expect if not demand cutting edge graphics from new games. So this will cause people to leave.. Most people I have spoken to have said the game has been released far too early and is incomplete. This will cause many more to leave. So I would say, although many eq2 players whilst trying out Vanguard, will probably decided its not for them, and come back here. As currently it is the best fantasy MMORPG around. And Finally... Welcome to our community. I hope you enjoy your stay! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ellrin]

Well. I have to say that we have lost some awesome players to Vanguard over the past couple of weeks and all of them cant say enough good things about it. I beta tested it and it wasn't for me. That said if we aren't raiding nobody plays EQ2 now, I mean what on earth is there to do in the new expansion if you are level 70 with 100AA (and yes there are more than you think of those!). Right now comments coming from my guild are "EQ2 needs something and FAST if it isn't going to wither away" "we need another long weapon quest line" etc etc etc. Grinding out the same old tired instances Valdoon and Obelisk and trying to compete with the farmers in Mistmoore tends to get old quickly. I'm facing facts as a guild leader that right now apart from at raid times my guild is barren because there isn't anything to do. Now I fully expect to be flamed for this but I'm here to tell you that these thoughts are not solely mine and as a huge fan of the game I want action and I want it soon.

[Palleon]

<p>I beta tested Vanguard, I preordered it, I played it at release, I got to level 13.</p><p>Then I realised I was actually pretty bored with the gameplay, the graphics were NOTHING compared to EQ2, the community seemed to be full of bickering children and the content was seriously lacking.</p><p>So I predict that a number will try it, its free afterall, then within a few weeks they will all be back. Especially when Unrest comes out, as everyone is looking forward to that!</p>

[Spyderbite]

Lost as in development time? Absolutely, not. It's Sigil's baby and there's to develop. From what I've read, Sony is just providing the servers & billing at this point. I'm sure there's more tossed in to the pot like marketing, etc. But, none the less, Sigil still has their own development team. I wouldn't be concerned about Vanguard stealing EQ2's thunder until Devs start posting goodbye messages because they're headed over to join the VG team. Based on VG's infant state right now, I doubt any of the EQ2 devs are ready to toss their career on the blackjack table like that with a pair of 3s. XD

[Lunah]

EQ2 has only gotten better with time, unlike my beloved SWG which only got worse. The devs here actually do listen to the players and make changes, albeit some of the changes annoy people but you cant please everyone all of the time. I see EQ2 with a solid future and Vanguard will maintain a dedicated population to be sure..but I dont see it taking too much of a hit on EQ2 in the long run. Those that left for it were ready to leave anyways..and some will come back. The lure with Vanguard is "EQLive" nostalgia and the fact it is on Station Pass is making many try it. I admit i bought it but have not even played past level 5..dont see enough different there to lure me away from my friends and toons here. So in short welcome to EQ2, hope you find what you are looking for here!

[Galithdor]

I know that Vanguard wont affect EQ2 much so come and join the community lol most MMOs are said to kill other MMOs but they never do. (i know most of that wasnt the question but still lol)

[bensilvi]

<cite>Grabbie93 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I left EQ1 after 4 years for WoW.<img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I left WoW after 2 years for Vanguard.<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It's just too unplayable right now, so I heard through the grapevine that EQ2 was polished up and ready to go, I decided to try it..yes, I have spent a lot of cash buying new games and expansions the past 2 months. My husband also!<img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> EQ2 is really impressive, I'm very happy I made the change and want to beat myself for playing that other product for so long, I think back and to be honest I never made the friends in WoW like I did in EQ nor did I have so many fun nights like I did in EQ1. Anyway I hope it's a long journey of good times here. So, just wondering will the Devs forget about EQ2 since the release of Vanguard? I'm sort of scared of that happening. Will the game get dumbed up so little children can play it, like WoW. Will it eventually be a PVP game under the camouflage of having a choice? Will it keep it's original vision and not give in to the mass chimpanzee population? Tell me now, so I can decide if I'm going to stick around.<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>NO!!!!!!!!!! Vanguard is not taking anyone if anything people that left for a bit from eq2 are coming back fast. Not to mention its on station pass so for a couple extra bucks you can play both. </p></blockquote>

[Y]

Any major MMO release will affect established games. However I think EQ1 and WoW will be more affected than EQ2, as those two had a lot of people playing who were just "waiting for Vanguard". That said, of course some people will leave EQ2 for Vanguard -- mostly those who prefer old-school gameplay (grinding, forced class dependencies, etc). Vanguard turned out much better than I expected during beta, but it's not the revolution that many were expecting. IMO, EQ2 will remain the better MMO for casual fun players. I think Vanguard and EQ2 can co-exist quite happily.

[steelbadger]

Call me crazy but I was kinda thinking that EQ2 would get a bit of a bucking up from VG's release, simply because one finds it hard to miss EQ2 when subscribing for VG.  That, coupled with the way that Vanguard feels unfinished and with the engine far from optimised, I could see old players coming back (rebooting their old eq2, and getting stationpass) and WoWers taking a look if they find VG to be against their tastes.  Because a LOT of EQ2'ers play VG on the side, and there is much talk ingame about comparisons. Dev-wise...  EQ2 = SOE; Vanguard = Sigil <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Y]

It's quite likely that people who aren't satisfied with Vanguard might give EQ2 a shot, or people give EQ2 a shot because they get offered Station Access via Vanguard. But EQ2 still has a bit of a bad reputation from its launch day <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[gi]

<cite>Yax wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's quite likely that people who aren't satisfied with Vanguard might give EQ2 a shot, or people give EQ2 a shot because they get offered Station Access via Vanguard. But EQ2 still has a bit of a bad reputation from its launch day <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Kinda off topic, but what bad reputation? I was there day 1, and I don't recall anything? I think the main problem with EQ2's percieved population issue is lack of Advertisement, both in store and out of store. When I went into 'Game' in UK to pick up EoF, they had no idea what I was talking about and thought I was on about WoW..... very worrying. SoE need to start advertising this great game. I don't understand why they rely almost exclusively on Word of mouth

[Etillchou]

Seeing how many are already returning from Vg i would think the first six months for sure vg wont hurt eq2.

[Y]

<cite>gith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kinda off topic, but what bad reputation? I was there day 1, and I don't recall anything? </blockquote> If you read through general MMO message boards you'll see a lot of anti-EQ2 sentiments, and most of those coming from the "rushed and unfinished" release. There are a lot of people who don't realize how much EQ2 has improved and let themselves be influenced by the people who have only played for a brief time after release present that impression as "this is what the game is like". I've also been around since beta and while I already liked it then, there's no doubt that the game is much better now than it was then.

[Miele]

Yes, EQ2 got bad word of mouth at release, it's a pity as now it's the best game on the market. Vanguard is not really a serious competitor, it dwindles in a crappy to ugly status and has been launched in such a bad state that only real fanbois can endure the pain. You also need a pretty good PC to appreciate it, meaning either you buy a new PC today or you're stuck at tetris like graphics with crappy framerate and stuttering all around. It will improve in 6 months from now, not earlier imo, maybe even later. Having both VG and EQ2 on station access tho is a plus, you can switch without thinking too much about it. I'm not touching it with a 10 ft pole for at least 1 year, especially now that EQ2 is really delivering a lot of fun. WoW is the real competitor, if EQ2 can stay at least on today's quality level or improve, I see players moving here once the novelty of the wow xpac wears off. This game offers a lot more things and whikle I think it could improve a bit in the combat department, it's top notch in every other aspect (a bit more of stability wouldn't hurt tho, lot of crashing issues). I'm trying hard to convince people to move from WoW, too bad their xpac finally arrived and they are playing it. I left wow and I'm not looking back, don't miss it at all.

[interstellarmatter]

<p>SOE sees the games appealing to two different type of people.  Better yet, with Station Access, both appeal to the same person.  But, they don't see it stealing potential customers away from EQ2.</p><p>They many not be responsible for it but they have staked part of their reputation.  I don't think that they wanted to try to overshadow the opening of VG with any new content release for EQ2.  You'll see Unrest and some other new stuff for EQ2 be release during the next month or two.</p>

[Slapfish]

I don't know, but it's already had a serious impact on my guild. Several of our oldest, most consistent players decided to try it and we haven't seen much of them since.

[Moongloom]

<cite>gith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yax wrote: I think the main problem with EQ2's percieved population issue is lack of Advertisement, both in store and out of store. When I went into 'Game' in UK to pick up EoF, they had no idea what I was talking about and thought I was on about WoW..... very worrying. SoE need to start advertising this great game. I don't understand why they rely almost exclusively on Word of mouth </blockquote><p> Same thing here.  Was just in Walmart (which is a big supermarket/department store) here in Texas and there was WoW (and its exapnsion) and Vanguard on the shelf among other MMO's but no EQ2.  </p><p>They do need to market it more...but they also need to get it on the store shelves.  If the only place to find it is specialty stores or online then that cuts your market down.  </p><p>When I bought the EoF expansion in the box I went to 2 stores to find it and had to wade through the big stands and hundreds of boxes of Burning Crusades to find it(yes I bought it late).   I am pretty sure if you get more boxes on the shelves you will get more people buying it and trying  it.</p>

[Y]

It's only been two weeks since Vanguard launched so we'll still have to wait for the novelty to wear off to make an accurate judgement on how it affects EQ2.

[Tomanak]

<cite>Yax wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's only been two weeks since Vanguard launched so we'll still have to wait for the novelty to wear off to make an accurate judgement on how it affects EQ2. </blockquote><p> QFE </p><p>This has to be considered by all looking at the impact of Vanguard on EQ2. For those who have 'lost' guildies to Vanguard and havent seen them since..well of course you havent seen them, the game is still new..Im sure there are guilds that lost people to WoW with the release of The Burning Crusade. </p><p>To me, (and I have 2 toons at 70) EQ2 still has a lot to offer. Im leveling alts, raiding with guildmates and occasionally crafting. While I have some interest in Vanguard (have station access) the horror stories Ive heard about its release have kept me from taking the plunge and probably will keep me from doing so for at least a few more months. Of course by the time Vanguard has its chit straight, EQ2 will have a new expansion ready..one with a level increase Im willing to bet. </p><p>For me, 2 + years into the process EQ2 is the most polished fantasy based MMO out there. </p>

[Widgetblaster]

I can't speak for other folk, but I was here for the EQ2 launch. While it was somewhat ok, the game got grindy after level 30 and had some serious issues. I spent a year and a half away, mostly in WoW, some EQ1 and then in EVE. I came back in January after my buddy started raving about the changes and I got a new better computer. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The changes are awesome, although I feel that they went too easy with the death penalty. In any case, it was rather challenging to figure out what to buy and once I did, it was challenging to locate the boxed version of EoF. In fact, the EB Games where I bought it had it in "the back room", while having piles of WoW and the Sims 2 out in the store. So SOE isn't exactly doing a great job putting the box in front of impulse buyers.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>Won't be lost at all. Welcome to the game.</p><p>Seems like the interest is just not there for Vanguard in my circles. Of a ~400 unique account guild...we *almost* lost 1 member to it that I know of. He came back 2 nights ago. Of a 7 guild raid alliance I'm a part of...we *did* lose 1 player...and 1 more that plans to play it as a secondary game. A guild that I know of that were all playing  have *all* returned....every one of them apparently. I heard of a small guild on our server that had quite a few of it's members switch though, so I guess some are trying it out....seems like a pretty weak impact so far.</p>

[Steelbreath]

Thanks to Station access I'll play both. I'm not ready to leave EQ2 yet, I've been exclusively playing Vanguard for the last week but that will change soon. Each game has something to offer, I never bought into the entire "3rd generation mmo" claptrap that was being pawned by the developers, so I'm not disappointed in that regard. With the release of EoF EQ2 has become a good solid game for those new to the world of MMOs that rivals WoW for accessibility and ease of learning how to play. Fortunately it has more depth at the beginning levels and doesn't exclusively rely on pvp and raiding for it's end content, so it has a better chance of keeping people around. I think it needs more promotion from Sony, that would probably ramp up interest in the game. Personally I'm looking forward to the next expansion and staring a new evil character in whatever new land they release. As for something new for level 70's well the Estate of Unrest will be open soon...

[Jai1]

<p>I would say that if they are still putting out expansions for EQ1, which came out quite a while ago, they will still work on new content for EQ2 for years to come.  It's a relatively new game in comparison, only being out a couple of years.  I am one of those who is doing station access with VG and EQ2.  A word of caution is that if you want to do the same then register the VG key through the station access account which I assume will be EQ2.  All the account names need to be the same to participate and if they are not you have to get new account keys and transfer character from old accounts.  You also loose vet rewards so Im using an EQ2 account as the base to keep them.</p><p>Vanguard is an alright game.  I like the huge world and think the graphics are sharp. The problem I'm running into is that I can't do certain things or quests are broken.   They are fixing them so instead of getting frustrated and quiting already, I just bug it and wait for the fixes.  I'm glad I still enjoy EQ2 and have game goals there still.   I'm sure others feel the same way.  </p>

[Grabbie93]

Great replies guys!<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Thanks I appreciate it and I'm sure other inquiring minds do also. I have no fear and am confident the next few years of my gaming career will be a fun one. I said I would quit at 40 and it's only 5 years away, so I think I'm safe I won't have to do another "switch" after reading up and research. Now to choose a class...<img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jai1]

Quit at 40?  We are about the same age and have a long time to go.  I dread the day where my mouse finger can't click or I can't remember how to play from day-to-day.  I'm thinking that's a long ways off.  If you really like EQ2, I would recommend leveraging vitality from a couple different characters and not pushing only one through without it.   'never play without it', is my motto and vitality is basically a double exp buff for crafting and adventuring.

[Natak]

My father played games till the end.

[Shadorro]

I saw an intial drop with both the release of Vanguard and Wow expansion but it went back to normal after two weeks when most people realized that EQII is still the best MMO out on the market.

[Ji]

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grabbie93 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So, just wondering will the Devs forget about EQ2 since the release of Vanguard? What he said....</p><p>  </p></blockquote>EverQuest II is developed by SOE.  Vanguard is developed by Sigil (a different company).  The development teams are completely different. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>

[tass]

yep yep. Right now vanguard is in the midst of basicly a testing server. They definatly should of waited maby another 6 months with pay for beta before releasing it to the public for some extra free testers. But no other mmorpg game ever figured it out so history repeats itself I suppose. Once I got my geforce 7900 gt in the mail I could finnaly move around and play in the game. Bugs aside I'm enjoying its gameplay so far. The game is defiantly quest oriented at least from the 9 levels ive played so far. Though if anything needs to be fixed its the servers that they're running on. Really screwing up fps rates over there with some lag. Anyway as far as playing vanguard goes unless u like to be 1 of those test server peeps by playing and reporting bugs to get the game on its feet just wait about 4 to 5 months until all the game updates fix everything.

[tass]

and [Removed for Content] is up with the messages reading? 1 min its 2 the next its my original amount of posts and back and forth?

[Nainitsuj]

Um.. no.  Vanguard is terrible.  It's gonna go the way of ... that game that was being created while SWG was being created.

[Indecisive01]

If Vanguard ever starts getting good reviews, and no "it has tons of potential" is not a good review, I will be leaving EQ2. I'm already a Pass member, and been involved with EQ some. My beef with EQ is that the group game no longer exist, and to be any good I am forced to raid. My problem with EQ2 is that no one wants, or needs, to group. I have a level 23 berserker that has been lfg for 3 weeks, and no one will invite me. I see no one in the group zones. I see no one grouped in regular zones. I don't play MMOs to spend the entire time alone, and this has been my experience so far. And before you say it gets better at higher levels, I used to have a 45 berserker that I gave up, so my EQ2 account and EQ account would have the same Station name. I rarely played in groups with my 45 berserker.

[Devout Disciple]

<cite>Indecisive01 wrote:</cite><blockquote> I have a level 23 berserker that has been lfg for 3 weeks, and no one will invite me. I see no one in the group zones. I see no one grouped in regular zones. I don't play MMOs to spend the entire time alone, and this has been my experience so far. And before you say it gets better at higher levels, I used to have a 45 berserker that I gave up, so my EQ2 account and EQ account would have the same Station name. I rarely played in groups with my 45 berserker. </blockquote><p> heh my 67 Shadowknight doesn't get invited to groups at all since I came back from quitting in Febuary of 06...........so that'll tell aughta tell ya how things changed.....................and my crusader hasn't gotten invited to very many groups when I was playing in Desert of Flames and even less in Kingdom of Sky........and he was a paladin back then..........</p><p> I like the occasional group truth be told and am enjoying the solo life...still would be nice grouping sometimes.........</p><p> Edit:  Back to the topic at hand....nah once people start playing around with Diplomacy in Vanguard and realize they can attack ya when you fail at it...I think the "new game" feeling will have run its course......at least someone who played Vanguard told me this happens.</p>

[Zarador]

<cite>Indecisive01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>If Vanguard ever starts getting good reviews, and no "it has tons of potential" is not a good review, I will be leaving EQ2. I'm already a Pass member, and been involved with EQ some. My beef with EQ is that the group game no longer exist, and to be any good I am forced to raid. My problem with EQ2 is that no one wants, or needs, to group. I have a level 23 berserker that has been lfg for 3 weeks, and no one will invite me. I see no one in the group zones. I see no one grouped in regular zones. I don't play MMOs to spend the entire time alone, and this has been my experience so far. And before you say it gets better at higher levels, I used to have a 45 berserker that I gave up, so my EQ2 account and EQ account would have the same Station name. I rarely played in groups with my 45 berserker. </blockquote>It's a double edged sword. In EQ-1 people moaned about how you need a Tank, Healer and Slower to do any effective group and that getting all three together was almost impossible and made grouping a difficulty.  In EQ-2 classes became more independent resulting in a greater ability to solo.  I'm not going to say your wrong because you don't enjoy soloing because many people enjoy groups and there is defiantly a shortage of them. I don't however think that Vanguard, or any other MMoG makes it any easier to get groups.  Even in EQ-1 where the holy trinity existed (Tank/healer/slower) the people who really enjoyed grouping often had their own cliques as to who they would invite for the added DPS, Pullers and CC toons.  When groups are a required part of the hunting experience many players make two box toons (Pocket Clerics) or build up regular hunting parties.  It should also be noted that Guilds are often stronger in these games as built in grouping becomes a very positive perk.

[Wingrider01]

<cite>Yax wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's only been two weeks since Vanguard launched so we'll still have to wait for the novelty to wear off to make an accurate judgement on how it affects EQ2. </blockquote> Think Vangaurd is not going to be a big deal, I mean if people complain about the short delay it takes to go from Greater Faydark to Qeynos or Freeport and being to big of a timesink, they definately will nto be please about the timesinks that are in Vangaurd. Make the ones in eq2 seem minor. Vanguard seems to cater to the older style of MMORPG players - the ones that do not look for instant rewards, which according to the FAQS that where available for Vanguard during it's development is exactly what they where aiming for. 2 or 3 years down the line, maybe they will put short cuts in

[Amytheyst]

I think VG will be labeled one of the great fiasco's of the 2000's. I'm going out on a limb here, but my overall take on it will probably (hopefully!) leave some people thinking twice about buying it. I tried running it on 4 different rigs, and last weekend on 12 (yes 12!) different systems at work. My home systems are higher end newer gaming rigs, and the ones at work still exceed the minimum req's for play, according to the box. It either wouldnt install properly, and when it did the graphics bugs were so numerous I thought I was stuck in a alpha testing dept. According to other players, the other bugs I couldnt "get to yet" (broken quests, warping, experience rollbacks, etc) are still there too. I gave up- nobody should be expected to "try" to play for 4 days/evenings with a program out of the box. I got more enjoyment reading the box and saying to myself "Set yourself free huh?" Yeah. Free from gaming with this one. All that aside, the thing that scared the heck out of me is the character creation screen REEKED of the EQ1 interface- it almost looks like they used a code snippet to save time. It made me think Brad had a bunch of floppies laying around from old EQ1 days and said "Here, use this stuff!". I think the novelty of the idea will wear off, once the reviews (uncensored ones) are out, and it will hold perhaps, a sadistic niche market. More power to them. It wont effect EQ2 at all, if anything it may stimulate more business (lol). The concepts they are trying to implement are what alot of people want, they just wont pull it off. I had high hopes for it and expected more from seasoned developers. The biggest hurdle SOE has is disassociating itself from the flop- thats exactly what it is, and youd be surprise dat how many people think this is a SOE developed product. FYI, my rigs at home (newer this year) run EQ2 at MAX graphics with no problems. I was shocked, since I took a break back in September and just came back. I'm used to somewhere between balanced and high graphics, sometimes barreling down to high performance in certain areas. Not a burp. Final thoughts: VG wont do a darn thing to EQ2, if anything it will show how darn good of a job SOE did with EQ2, aside from the fact that development of EQ2 has nothing to do with VG, two different companies. (For the OP)

[dimzar]

<p>              To the OP. EQ2 is still and will be for a long time the best, most polished MMORG  out there. Vanguard is the most complex, deep and demanding MMORG ever created (and the way the genre is going , probably the last of its kind), but still not anywhere near polished. The game has so many variables that it will take at least six months of constant fixing, adjusting, balancing and hunting down bugs to be anywhere near polished as its current competition. The release of Vanguard has already affected indirectly EQ2. From the 2 expansions per year we used to have we are down now to 1 per year. Also no adventure pack on the horizon. Seing that there another 2 releases coming this year on the station pass (probably) gods and heroes and another SPY MMORG, it makes me feel that SOE is pulling out resources from developing and is switching to publishing (just my opinion). </p><p>              To the person who compared Vanguard to LoTRO. Dont compare a game that it takes 10 mins to run from one end of its 13 zones to the other, with a game that takes 10 mins to run from the one end of one of its cities (New Targonnor) to the other. I play LoTRO beta , I enjoy it, but its a completely different game from Vanguard, or EQ2 for that matter. </p>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

Tomanak wrote: <blockquote><p>For me, 2 + years into the process EQ2 is the most polished fantasy based MMO out there. </p></blockquote><p>True, Ironically.... EQ2players.com is most unpolished site I ever seen that is designed for well polished EQ2 MMO game. Nice combo..  NOT! <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Fenix]

Well I ‘Ve been playing Vanguard for a while; i cancelled my account 2 week after release. Beside the fact that the game is basically, still in beta stage (hell 2 official class are not even in the game yet), I don’t like the plastic feel of the game. It almost like I was playing with Ken and I was grouping with Barbie =P and the quest system is basically an hardcore version of World of warcraft .   Anyway I may give another try somewhere in the future, like in one year or so. But I don’t think EQ2 will die or get lost because of Vancrap...err Vanguard…sorry my bad =D p.s.: Sorry,  English is not my primary Language I’m sorry for any spelling or grammar mistake

[Poetelia]

<p>I, certainly, was afraid of losing a big population chunk to VG, what with all the great comments and all.</p><p>As I do have a Station Pass I got the game and went to test it myself.</p><p>Now my mind is completely at ease. If EQ2 is going to lose people I doubt very much it will be to VG. From my humble and very arguable point of view, VG is obsolete, both graphically and conceptually. Not even EQ1 nostalgia is going to help it a lot.</p><p>Poetelia Roseknight</p><p>Paladin of Qeynos</p>

[Jai1]

<p>Vanguard is a great game for immersion and new game mechanics.  I imagine it will only improve.  I think the graphics are great and I have fun playing it although I stayed up late 2 nights in a row doing so which brought back EQ terrors.  There is slower progression so you really feel like you are more powerful every 2 levels or so.  It's really not fair to look at a game on release and say,"This game sucks" and cancel your account.  </p><p>I imagine developing a game is quite an investment.  There comes a time when the developers and publishers feel the game is playable and try to recoup costs for futher development.  It may have been too soon but I bet Sigil is working hard to fix everything.  I know I have bugged things, played a different character or game for a bit, came back and they were fixed.  Then there are things that are not fixed.  I have the mindset that I see the potential for a really fun game so I don't mind investing in it's growth although that will be through station pass.</p><p>Some of you mentioned not finding groups in EQ2.  Setting your LFG tag up and waiting isn't the best approach.  Asides from healers and my T7 toons, I have never gotten that to work well.   You have to make some effort for it but groups are found at every tier, even 2 years later.  </p><p>Just think like your a salesman.   Check the obvious, LFGs.  That's usually low so come up with someplace of interest.  Think of who you need and do /who all <level range>.  Just ask people out of the blue and expect some rejection.   Making a group is easy if you have a good destination and some initiative.  Sometimes you turn up empty but I know I can find one or two other people to group with.</p>

[Zarador]

I was rather turned off that there was no Trial Version of the game. I guess I'm one of those few that always felt if your game is really all that good, why not give people a chance to get hooked on it before they plunk down $49.95 on it.  Another thing that turned me off a bit was the snubbing of several very large 3rd party information and interface sites because of their affiliation with a company that engages in 3rd part sales of virtual property. While I'm 100% against sales of plat, goods and services outside of the approved Exchange Server method, I also felt many of these sites provide valuable information and services that enhance a game.  To further complicate things I figured I would check out their official forums and see what people had to say as I have all access and thought perhaps I would give it a shot.  It would appear that they no longer have official forums, at least on the day of release, that's what the boards stated.  They felt it was bad for the gaming community to have official forums like we do in with the SoE games. I guess in general the attitude of: <ul><li>You'll buy it because we made it.</li><li>You'll be discouraged from visiting the sites that your familiar with because we don't like what they do.</li><li>Being able to post on official forums where we interact with you about what you like, dislike or think could be improved is bad for the game.</li><li>Were so good that you should plunk down $50 just to try us, even though were really not up and running, then pay us monthly to beta test us.</li></ul>Turned me off.

[Dasto]

<cite>Indecisive01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If Vanguard ever starts getting good reviews, and no "it has tons of potential" is not a good review, I will be leaving EQ2. I'm already a Pass member, and been involved with EQ some. My beef with EQ is that the group game no longer exist, and to be any good I am forced to raid. My problem with EQ2 is that no one wants, or needs, to group. I have a level 23 berserker that has been lfg for 3 weeks, and no one will invite me. I see no one in the group zones. I see no one grouped in regular zones. I don't play MMOs to spend the entire time alone, and this has been my experience so far. And before you say it gets better at higher levels, I used to have a 45 berserker that I gave up, so my EQ2 account and EQ account would have the same Station name. I rarely played in groups with my 45 berserker.</p></blockquote><p>well I agree with you about EQ1, being a forced raid game, that is why I left</p><p>I dont agree with you at all about EQ2 groups.  there are tons of groups on EQ2, most people group cause the xp is best that way.  Shoot your a tank..just pick up a healer off lfg and form your own group.  Once you get a healer your all set.  I was on LFG a whole 5 mins last night.  Go to group zones, and ooc you are lfg,,,some nights are better then others, but groups are not that hard to get and the times they are there are tons of otther things to work on and do while you wait.  </p>

[tass]

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was rather turned off that there was no Trial Version of the game. I guess I'm one of those few that always felt if your game is really all that good, <span style="color: #993300">why not give people a chance to get hooked on it before they plunk down $49.95 on it.</span>  Another thing that turned me off a bit was the snubbing of several very large 3rd party information and interface sites because of their affiliation with a company that engages in 3rd part sales of virtual property. While I'm 100% against sales of plat, goods and services outside of the approved Exchange Server method, I also felt many of these sites provide valuable information and services that enhance a game.  To further complicate things I figured I would check out their official forums and see what people had to say as I have all access and thought perhaps I would give it a shot.  It would appear that they no longer have official forums, at least on the day of release, that's what the boards stated.  They felt it was bad for the gaming community to have official forums like we do in with the SoE games. I guess in general the attitude of: <ul><li>You'll buy it because we made it.</li><li>You'll be discouraged from visiting the sites that your familiar with because we don't like what they do.</li><li>Being able to post on official forums where we interact with you about what you like, dislike or think could be improved is bad for the game.</li><li>Were so good that you should plunk down $50 just to try us, even though were really not up and running, then pay us monthly to beta test us.</li></ul>Turned me off. </blockquote>I see where ur comn from but the answer is. Heeeeeeeeeell no. The reason why this game has so much spam in gold is because those little bastages make endless trial chars. The shhould just remove the whole dam trial system from this game.

[Zarador]

<cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was rather turned off that there was no Trial Version of the game. I guess I'm one of those few that always felt if your game is really all that good, <span style="color: #993300">why not give people a chance to get hooked on it before they plunk down $49.95 on it.</span>  Another thing that turned me off a bit was the snubbing of several very large 3rd party information and interface sites because of their affiliation with a company that engages in 3rd part sales of virtual property. While I'm 100% against sales of plat, goods and services outside of the approved Exchange Server method, I also felt many of these sites provide valuable information and services that enhance a game.  To further complicate things I figured I would check out their official forums and see what people had to say as I have all access and thought perhaps I would give it a shot.  It would appear that they no longer have official forums, at least on the day of release, that's what the boards stated.  They felt it was bad for the gaming community to have official forums like we do in with the SoE games. I guess in general the attitude of: <ul><li>You'll buy it because we made it.</li><li>You'll be discouraged from visiting the sites that your familiar with because we don't like what they do.</li><li>Being able to post on official forums where we interact with you about what you like, dislike or think could be improved is bad for the game.</li><li>Were so good that you should plunk down $50 just to try us, even though were really not up and running, then pay us monthly to beta test us.</li></ul>Turned me off. </blockquote>I see where ur comn from but the answer is. Heeeeeeeeeell no. The reason why this game has so much spam in gold is because those little bastages make endless trial chars. The shhould just remove the whole dam trial system from this game. </blockquote>There is actually a far better easier way to handle Trials, SoE just forgot that they can do it.  In EQ-1 (Live) we had the Morden Rasp Server for trial accounts.  If you turned it into a paying account, you could transfer off of it for free, although many stayed.  Gve you the full game for 30 days, no restrictions.  I do agree with you 100% about the spammers though, it seems like it would be so easy from SoE's side to make GMsleeze.com a "bad word". I could almost live with filter on were that the case, or better yet, make a secondary filter that allows you to ban up to 30 words and not receive tells with those words in it.

[Jai1]

I am loading VG on my laptop now and it's about 17gigs.  It will probably be about 20g after the updates.  The VG world is huge and I imagine you can't pull out part of the game and make it a zone for people to trial it.  Plus every class/race combo has a different progression starting off so allowing just one or two class/races and their starting areas wouldn't really represent the game.  Since the game was free for me, I can't comment on paying $50 bucks just to try it out.  I was actually going to wait a year or so after release because I felt it would just be better to play after a year or so of fixes and changes.  From what I saw and played, I liked, so I will just get it on station pass and maybe get a couple more SoE games.  If you have have a station account already, you might as well just add it to the collection.  Anyways, there's been more than a few games that I've shelled out $50 for to play them for maybe a week.  VG takes a little more time than that.

[Wingrider01]

<cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was rather turned off that there was no Trial Version of the game. I guess I'm one of those few that always felt if your game is really all that good, <span style="color: #993300">why not give people a chance to get hooked on it before they plunk down $49.95 on it.</span>  Another thing that turned me off a bit was the snubbing of several very large 3rd party information and interface sites because of their affiliation with a company that engages in 3rd part sales of virtual property. While I'm 100% against sales of plat, goods and services outside of the approved Exchange Server method, I also felt many of these sites provide valuable information and services that enhance a game.  To further complicate things I figured I would check out their official forums and see what people had to say as I have all access and thought perhaps I would give it a shot.  It would appear that they no longer have official forums, at least on the day of release, that's what the boards stated.  They felt it was bad for the gaming community to have official forums like we do in with the SoE games. I guess in general the attitude of: <ul><li>You'll buy it because we made it.</li><li>You'll be discouraged from visiting the sites that your familiar with because we don't like what they do.</li><li>Being able to post on official forums where we interact with you about what you like, dislike or think could be improved is bad for the game.</li><li>Were so good that you should plunk down $50 just to try us, even though were really not up and running, then pay us monthly to beta test us.</li></ul>Turned me off. </blockquote>I see where ur comn from but the answer is. Heeeeeeeeeell no. The reason why this game has so much spam in gold is because those little bastages make endless trial chars. The shhould just remove the whole dam trial system from this game. </blockquote> Actually here is where Sigil is attempting more then what has been done in the past regarding item selling. They have already announced that they will have nothing to do with any website that is even remotely connected with plat/item selling sites - so a lot of the IGE affliliates and the like are having issues with that and they have slready suspended a number of accounts pending investigation for trafficing in items and cash for sale.

[Wingrider01]

<cite>Jai1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am loading VG on my laptop now and it's about 17gigs.  It will probably be about 20g after the updates.  The VG world is huge and I imagine you can't pull out part of the game and make it a zone for people to trial it.  Plus every class/race combo has a different progression starting off so allowing just one or two class/races and their starting areas wouldn't really represent the game.  Since the game was free for me, I can't comment on paying $50 bucks just to try it out.  I was actually going to wait a year or so after release because I felt it would just be better to play after a year or so of fixes and changes.  From what I saw and played, I liked, so I will just get it on station pass and maybe get a couple more SoE games.  If you have have a station account already, you might as well just add it to the collection.  Anyways, there's been more than a few games that I've shelled out $50 for to play them for maybe a week.  VG takes a little more time than that.</blockquote> you may have more problems running it on the laptop then eq2 - the requirements are a lot more stringent and understated, but good luck

[Zarador]

<cite>Wingrider01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was rather turned off that there was no Trial Version of the game. I guess I'm one of those few that always felt if your game is really all that good, <span style="color: #993300">why not give people a chance to get hooked on it before they plunk down $49.95 on it.</span>  Another thing that turned me off a bit was the snubbing of several very large 3rd party information and interface sites because of their affiliation with a company that engages in 3rd part sales of virtual property. While I'm 100% against sales of plat, goods and services outside of the approved Exchange Server method, I also felt many of these sites provide valuable information and services that enhance a game.  To further complicate things I figured I would check out their official forums and see what people had to say as I have all access and thought perhaps I would give it a shot.  It would appear that they no longer have official forums, at least on the day of release, that's what the boards stated.  They felt it was bad for the gaming community to have official forums like we do in with the SoE games. I guess in general the attitude of: <ul><li>You'll buy it because we made it.</li><li>You'll be discouraged from visiting the sites that your familiar with because we don't like what they do.</li><li>Being able to post on official forums where we interact with you about what you like, dislike or think could be improved is bad for the game.</li><li>Were so good that you should plunk down $50 just to try us, even though were really not up and running, then pay us monthly to beta test us.</li></ul>Turned me off. </blockquote>I see where ur comn from but the answer is. Heeeeeeeeeell no. The reason why this game has so much spam in gold is because those little bastages make endless trial chars. The shhould just remove the whole dam trial system from this game. </blockquote> Actually here is where Sigil is attempting more then what has been done in the past regarding item selling. They have already announced that they will have nothing to do with any website that is even remotely connected with plat/item selling sites - so a lot of the IGE affliliates and the like are having issues with that and they have slready suspended a number of accounts pending investigation for trafficing in items and cash for sale.</blockquote>So if your going to do that, as they have, would it not make sense to make your own "Super Site" as good as those 3rd party sites that are out there for other games right now?  Seems to me if your telling people to avoid the IGE Affiliates that so many gamers depend on, give them something that they can build up with your support.  I'm sorry if I seem dense on this issue as I know in the end, with SoE behind them, I will wind up purchasing VG in the future, but telling people to go to 3rd party sites, just not the ones that everyone has learned to depend on with other games, seems a bit lame. I'm just being very open and honest without bashing what they did or supporting IGE, because I don't support the actions of IGE.  I do know however every major patch here people are, as they were in EQ-1 and in WoW in a scramble to fix their Custom UI's meaning they must be important to many people.  Who has not used Online Gaming (Now Alakhazams) to help them in the game, or EQ-Maps?  Like I said, I understand the not wanting to be affiliated with such sites, but then make a mega site of your own where such developers can produce valuable databases for your user base.  Were not going to support the best sites that do this, but were not going to do this ourselves?

[WingRider_02]

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wingrider01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was rather turned off that there was no Trial Version of the game. I guess I'm one of those few that always felt if your game is really all that good, <span style="color: #993300">why not give people a chance to get hooked on it before they plunk down $49.95 on it.</span>  Another thing that turned me off a bit was the snubbing of several very large 3rd party information and interface sites because of their affiliation with a company that engages in 3rd part sales of virtual property. While I'm 100% against sales of plat, goods and services outside of the approved Exchange Server method, I also felt many of these sites provide valuable information and services that enhance a game.  To further complicate things I figured I would check out their official forums and see what people had to say as I have all access and thought perhaps I would give it a shot.  It would appear that they no longer have official forums, at least on the day of release, that's what the boards stated.  They felt it was bad for the gaming community to have official forums like we do in with the SoE games. I guess in general the attitude of: <ul><li>You'll buy it because we made it.</li><li>You'll be discouraged from visiting the sites that your familiar with because we don't like what they do.</li><li>Being able to post on official forums where we interact with you about what you like, dislike or think could be improved is bad for the game.</li><li>Were so good that you should plunk down $50 just to try us, even though were really not up and running, then pay us monthly to beta test us.</li></ul>Turned me off. </blockquote>I see where ur comn from but the answer is. Heeeeeeeeeell no. The reason why this game has so much spam in gold is because those little bastages make endless trial chars. The shhould just remove the whole dam trial system from this game. </blockquote> Actually here is where Sigil is attempting more then what has been done in the past regarding item selling. They have already announced that they will have nothing to do with any website that is even remotely connected with plat/item selling sites - so a lot of the IGE affliliates and the like are having issues with that and they have slready suspended a number of accounts pending investigation for trafficing in items and cash for sale.</blockquote>So if your going to do that, as they have, would it not make sense to make your own "Super Site" as good as those 3rd party sites that are out there for other games right now?  Seems to me if your telling people to avoid the IGE Affiliates that so many gamers depend on, give them something that they can build up with your support.  I'm sorry if I seem dense on this issue as I know in the end, with SoE behind them, I will wind up purchasing VG in the future, but telling people to go to 3rd party sites, just not the ones that everyone has learned to depend on with other games, seems a bit lame. I'm just being very open and honest without bashing what they did or supporting IGE, because I don't support the actions of IGE.  I do know however every major patch here people are, as they were in EQ-1 and in WoW in a scramble to fix their Custom UI's meaning they must be important to many people.  Who has not used Online Gaming (Now Alakhazams) to help them in the game, or EQ-Maps?  Like I said, I understand the not wanting to be affiliated with such sites, but then make a mega site of your own where such developers can produce valuable databases for your user base.  Were not going to support the best sites that do this, but were not going to do this ourselves? </blockquote> Sorry - don;t agree at all, wish they would shutodwn all forms of item selling 3rd party or native - don;t enjoy having to battle with a character that is the best that the players/mom's wallet can afford. Sigil made the decision to come down hard on it

[Ranger13]

<p>Vanguard is a big, steaming pile right now.  No.</p>

[Jai1]

<p><i><b>Wingrider01 wrote:</b></i></p><p>Jai1 wrote: </p><blockquote>I am loading VG on my laptop now and it's about 17gigs.  It will probably be about 20g after the updates.  The VG world is huge and I imagine you can't pull out part of the game and make it a zone for people to trial it.  Plus every class/race combo has a different progression starting off so allowing just one or two class/races and their starting areas wouldn't really represent the game.  Since the game was free for me, I can't comment on paying $50 bucks just to try it out.  I was actually going to wait a year or so after release because I felt it would just be better to play after a year or so of fixes and changes.  From what I saw and played, I liked, so I will just get it on station pass and maybe get a couple more SoE games.  If you have have a station account already, you might as well just add it to the collection.  Anyways, there's been more than a few games that I've shelled out $50 for to play them for maybe a week.  VG takes a little more time than that.</blockquote><p> you may have more problems running it on the laptop then eq2 - the requirements are a lot more stringent and understated, but good luck </p><p>Whew, you scared me for a minute.  I had to actually load up the game at work which I just don't do.  Go figure I troll the boards so much.  Seems to be fine.  It's a Precision M90 with upgrades though so I don't know if all laptops would work as well.  I travel on business and gave a gaming requirement for my laptop so I could play in the hotels at night.  I love my company.  </p>

[Wingrider01]

<cite>Jai1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><i><b>Wingrider01 wrote:</b></i></p><p>Jai1 wrote: </p><blockquote>I am loading VG on my laptop now and it's about 17gigs.  It will probably be about 20g after the updates.  The VG world is huge and I imagine you can't pull out part of the game and make it a zone for people to trial it.  Plus every class/race combo has a different progression starting off so allowing just one or two class/races and their starting areas wouldn't really represent the game.  Since the game was free for me, I can't comment on paying $50 bucks just to try it out.  I was actually going to wait a year or so after release because I felt it would just be better to play after a year or so of fixes and changes.  From what I saw and played, I liked, so I will just get it on station pass and maybe get a couple more SoE games.  If you have have a station account already, you might as well just add it to the collection.  Anyways, there's been more than a few games that I've shelled out $50 for to play them for maybe a week.  VG takes a little more time than that.</blockquote><p> you may have more problems running it on the laptop then eq2 - the requirements are a lot more stringent and understated, but good luck </p><p>Whew, you scared me for a minute.  I had to actually load up the game at work which I just don't do.  Go figure I troll the boards so much.  Seems to be fine.  It's a Precision M90 with upgrades though so I don't know if all laptops would work as well.  I travel on business and gave a gaming requirement for my laptop so I could play in the hotels at night.  I love my company.  </p></blockquote>been seeing to many issues over at teh vanguard forum with desktops - glad you got it running.

[Jora']

<p>I found Vanguard an amazing game so far. Having  played eq2 since day 1 and now playing vanguard i was blown away.  V has its pro's and cons as follows:</p><p>Pros:</p><p>Freedom! I don't feel like im stuck in a cage and basically 'shown' were to go.  The gameworld is massive. Its a wonnderful sight to get on top of the mountain and look around, see a small village or 2 dotting the horizon.   Also the exploring factor, there is just soo much to explore.  In Eq2 at l70, when youve been playing every day since day 1, what else there to explore. Nothing..   Eof gave us like 1 week tops worth of l70 group content before getting to the routine of farming the same stuff over and over <yawn> </p><p>The graphics are also very very realistic.   The first tree i went past in vanguard I was like wooow.. a tree that looks real, it the leaves move with the wind, it has been very immersive.   The graphics may lack some of the polish that eq2 gives, but they are much more realistic.   </p><p>Cons</p><p>Lag!. This occurs maainly in cities only outside of the main 30+fps is easily achievable at high performance setting even on a mid range desktop.   I have xp2600+, x800pro and it runs very smoothly, except in cities where there is significant lag occurs</p><p>bugs.   There are a few of these, but the crashing bugs seem to be present moreso for those who use the original beta client to play, rather than getting the retail version or digital download from  soe</p>

[dawy]

<p>At the moment i'm playing Vnaguard and rather impressed with it now this is not to say i've fallen out of love with EQ2 far from it but playing the same game for almost 2 years solid has left me a little jaded so for me at least Vanguard is providing a welcome break.</p><p>Will i be back to EQ2 "full time" of course i will no other game MMO or otherwise has captivated me as this game has but like haveing to much chocolate you can have to much of a good thing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[AntLi]

<cite>Grabbie93 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I left EQ1 after 4 years for WoW.<img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I left WoW after 2 years for Vanguard.<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It's just too unplayable right now, so I heard through the grapevine that EQ2 was polished up and ready to go, I decided to try it..yes, I have spent a lot of cash buying new games and expansions the past 2 months. My husband also!<img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> EQ2 is really impressive, I'm very happy I made the change and want to beat myself for playing that other product for so long, I think back and to be honest I never made the friends in WoW like I did in EQ nor did I have so many fun nights like I did in EQ1. Anyway I hope it's a long journey of good times here. So, just wondering will the Devs forget about EQ2 since the release of Vanguard? I'm sort of scared of that happening. Will the game get dumbed up so little children can play it, like WoW. Will it eventually be a PVP game under the camouflage of having a choice? Will it keep it's original vision and not give in to the mass chimpanzee population? Tell me now, so I can decide if I'm going to stick around.<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> VG is perfectly playable for a lot of players. I get 54fps out in the open and 30 to 25 ms in towns on high quality.  It appears you were trying to run VG at on settings your Pc simply not capable of handling. VG is far more demanding than even EQ2 on your system.  If you’ve got bottle necks on your system from poor hardware choices VG will be hit hard by them. VG used 7gigs of information at any given time when you’re running through landscapes or town. Data throughput bandwidth from your hard disk through your motherboard bus to memory to CPU and GPU needs to be up to the job. Average hardware will causes bottle necks with VG. 

[tass]

The thing I love the most so far about the game is the hardship. Here u play for a day and get 8 or 9 lvs. Over there u play for a day and break 3 if ur a quest aholic and thats just the 1 though 10 work up lol. The mobs are dangerous if another 1 comes to help out (which those dam things always do lol) And the best thing the game has is unbalance. Mages, healers, tanks, semi tanks, rouges, each different class has its own characteristics. Theres no better or no worse because they all play different from 1 another.

[Jestaholic]

Its So Pointless to compare these games, especially with Vanguard at its current state. <b>Vanguard has been release only 3 weeks!!!! Everquest2 has been out for some years.</b> Due to the fact that eq2 has been out for much longer; it has more polish. And to the people who say the game is unplayable are full of [Removed for Content], Those are the people who can't run the game the way they wish they could. Also in Vanguard you actually have to work for levels which is much more in common with those who want more out of a game and not casual play. So IN ALL it will never be a fair comparison unless EQ2 re-launches ( ... ) at the same time Vanguard launches... Then it will be fair.

[steelbadger]

yesss... BUT those people that say that "omg Vanguard graphics completely own EQ2 and it is like 4billion % better, and no noob it doesn't have any bugs" are also full of [yadayada yada] Also, it is a perfectly fair comparison, because here and now EQ2 has more polish, thus, here and now, I am going to be playing EQ2 more than Vanguard, because here and now, EQ2 is better. Ok, maybe in 2 years time Vanguard will have the same polish, but that is then and this is now, and NOW Vanguard has some glaring issues.

[Fenix]

<cite>AntLion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grabbie93 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I left EQ1 after 4 years for WoW.<img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I left WoW after 2 years for Vanguard.<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It's just too unplayable right now, so I heard through the grapevine that EQ2 was polished up and ready to go, I decided to try it..yes, I have spent a lot of cash buying new games and expansions the past 2 months. My husband also!<img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> EQ2 is really impressive, I'm very happy I made the change and want to beat myself for playing that other product for so long, I think back and to be honest I never made the friends in WoW like I did in EQ nor did I have so many fun nights like I did in EQ1. Anyway I hope it's a long journey of good times here. So, just wondering will the Devs forget about EQ2 since the release of Vanguard? I'm sort of scared of that happening. Will the game get dumbed up so little children can play it, like WoW. Will it eventually be a PVP game under the camouflage of having a choice? Will it keep it's original vision and not give in to the mass chimpanzee population? Tell me now, so I can decide if I'm going to stick around.<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> VG is perfectly playable for a lot of players. I get 54fps out in the open and 30 to 25 ms in towns on high quality.  It appears you were trying to run VG at on settings your Pc simply not capable of handling. VG is far more demanding than even EQ2 on your system.  If you’ve got bottle necks on your system from poor hardware choices VG will be hit hard by them. VG used 7gigs of information at any given time when you’re running through landscapes or town. Data throughput bandwidth from your hard disk through your motherboard bus to memory to CPU and GPU needs to be up to the job. Average hardware will causes bottle necks with VG.  </blockquote> I'm so glad you didn’t spent 50$ for nothing /cheer ,  but it is completely unplayable form many other player like .  Go take look in  the only forum Sigil made for their game, all the the issue people are having. Look around the web. All the reviewer agreed, Vanguard has more issue then any other mmo and it’s an unfinished product. Here an example: “"People ask me, 'are you launching a finished game?' and the answer is 'no, we're launching a game that is good enough to launch, but it's not finished.' And that's why I love these games: because they should never be finished."  On this point, I have to respectfully disagree with Mr. McQuaid. By their nature, online role-playing games are constantly evolving, but they should still bear some semblance to a finished product. Even by the standards set by other games in this segment, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is plagued by more issues than the growing pains that all MMO's experience after launch. » -Gamespy review I meet the recommended spec with my pc, in fact my graphic card exceeds the requirement of Vanguard and I have trouble running Vanguard in high performance setting.  The funny thing is, I play EQ2, Oblivion and many more current games, at high detail without any issue.  So please, keep your ‘Vanboy’ talk for the Vanguard technical support forum.

[DrRothchild]

I believe it's pretty telling they don't have official forums yet. If you don't think there's a reason for it, I've got a bridge to sell you. 

[Subt]

<blockquote>Vanguard has more issue then any other mmo and it’s an unfinished product.</blockquote> Actually, that is not true.. Anarchy Online had probably the worst launch ever. Even WOW's beta was not flawless.. Server cues.. crashing bugs and the harvesting bug where nodes would be bugged and you would get stuck in harvesting mode until you logged out and then when you logged back in you were 978th in the que line.. Remember <blockquote>I believe it's pretty telling they don't have official forums yet. If you don't think there's a reason for it, I've got a bridge to sell you. </blockquote> Actually they have no intention of ever having official forums for Vanguard, they have stated that for a long time. I played eq2 at launch, and it was not a very good game which is why they had such a bad start. I do not think it was bug ridden.. it was just a poorly thought out game, just two starting cities was a really bad decision just as an example. True, they did make the game a ton better.. I started playing again when KOS came out and enjoyed it quite a bit, I do not think it is always correct to compare a new game with a more seasoned game off the bat, however if you compare just about any new game's launch to EQ2's launch.. eq2's launch will lose just about every time, not so much because of the bugs, but because the game play was pretty bad, and eq2 never has really overcome that bad stigmatism they created.  

[UlteriorModem]

<cite>DrRothchild wrote:</cite><blockquote><i>I believe it's pretty telling they don't have official forums yet. If you don't think there's a reason for it, I've got a bridge to sell you.</i> </blockquote><p> Actually they have announced that they will have NO offical forums as it will "lead to a stronger community".</p><p>Hows that for customer service ?</p>

[Spyderbite]

<cite>Subtle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Vanguard has more issue then any other mmo and it’s an unfinished product.</blockquote> Actually, that is not true.. Anarchy Online had probably the worst launch ever. </blockquote>Bzzzzzzzzz... wrong answer. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ultima Online... frequent reverts and server wipes for months after it went gold. Server crashes were almost as common as client crashes. Those of us who beta'd deserved Purple Hearts for that experience. <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Grabbie93]

<cite>DrRothchild wrote:</cite><blockquote>I believe it's pretty telling they don't have official forums yet. If you don't think there's a reason for it, I've got a bridge to sell you. </blockquote>To be honest, for an open discussion in a public forum I would have to say these forums are actually decent. It says a lot about the community. I can only base it on my passed experience using forums in a different "highly advertised run by chimps game" I'm impressed with the great community and the responsible discussion here. It's a breath of fresh air.

[DrRothchild]

Well that's because we have great people here and a great game. A nice combination!

[UlteriorModem]

<cite>Kulssin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Subtle wrote:</p><p>Bzzzzzzzzz... wrong answer. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ultima Online... frequent reverts and server wipes for months after it went gold. Server crashes were almost as common as client crashes. Those of us who beta'd deserved Purple Hearts for that experience. <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote>I remember that. Somtimes losing literally weeks of advancement in the blink of an eye.

[Lydiae]

<p>The jury on Vanguard is out and will be for a long time.  There are a lot of people who <b><i>want</i></b> Vanguard to be good and will berate you as a "WoW-loving noob" or somesuch in general chat if you dare to say anything against it.   They're getting very defensive and IMHO are the worst thing about the game right now. Desire for challenge is all well and good, but I'm also starting to see these same people berating newbies for asking game related questions in chat, something seriously bad for MMO community.</p><p>The Good: The world is awesomely huge and gorgeous, tradeskills are deep, relevant and interesting.  Diplomacy is something new and has potential, if in certain situations you can talk your way past mobs and get the same result as killing them, it will be good, if it's just a self-contained sideline, then not so much.</p><p>The Bad: The adventuring game is <i>nothing special</i>, the only thing different about it is <i>waaaaaaaaaay</i> slower experience/level gain.  The character models are unnatural, wooden and sort of remind me of ventriloquist dummies.  Bad lag and a memory leak issue that adds more slowdown and eventually leads to client crash.  Buggy and incomplete quests.</p><p>I'm only playing for the tradeskills, otherwise it would be too buggy and laggy to tolerate.</p>

[UlteriorModem]

<cite>Lydiaele wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The character models are unnatural, wooden and sort of remind me of ventriloquist dummies.  Bad lag and a memory leak issue that adds more slowdown and eventually leads to client crash.  Buggy and incomplete quests.</p></blockquote>Hrm.. something here sounds familiar.

[DwarvesR]

<p>Slower progression in VG?  That's funny.  The game's only 3 weeks old and it's already got people in their 40's (out of 50).</p><p>I can get a new character to level 10 in about 5 hours without even trying.  A friend of mine plays off and on, but isn't terribly excited about it, so mostly just helps newbies in his guild level up a bit faster, and even he's level 20.  With the amount of free time he has, he'd probably be in his mid-30's by now if he actually liked the game and focused on playing it more.</p><p>Graphically, it's pretty.  I really like how it looks.</p><p>Crafting is okay.  Nothing to really write home about, but it's fun enough for the 1st few levels.  After level 8 it got kinda old for me, though.</p><p>Diplomacy is self-contained at the moment.  Like crafting, it was fun at 1st, but it got old in a hurry.</p><p>Adventuring. . . . . needs a lot of work still.  I may try it again in 6 months or a year, but for now?  No.  I'm not bothering.  And I'm on Station Pass already, so it's not like it costs me anything. . . it's just plain not worth my time.</p>

[Miele]

Vanbois are the biggest letdown in Vanguard. They'll slowly drive away every other player coming from other games. This trend started in early 2005 on their forums and got worse day by day, in beta 3 and 4, a simple comment in /ooc was often answered with a lot of hate, think WoW general chat reversed. Aside from that I like VG sceneries, but character models are incredibly ugly, if I can't love my char appearance, chances are I won't play the game for long.

[TwistedFaith]

<cite>UlteriorModem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DrRothchild wrote:</cite><blockquote><i>I believe it's pretty telling they don't have official forums yet. If you don't think there's a reason for it, I've got a bridge to sell you.</i> </blockquote><p> Actually they have announced that they will have NO offical forums as it will "lead to a stronger community".</p><p>Hows that for customer service ?</p></blockquote> Bizzarely this is one of the things that has turned me off from VG, the community seems a total shambles with no official central source of info. Devs post to various forums, but honestly not one of the forums compares to this official eq2 forum. TTHammer for example is just a mess in terms of usability and silky venom is shocking.

[Guy De Alsace]

<p>Our guild has lost <b>all</b> of its senior members to Vanguard. Including my co-leader. While they say they will come back I fear the guild will have a mass exodus since there is hardly anyone online at the moment. I've had an offer of a guild merger but dont know anything about that and am loathe to lose a level 54 guild so soon after the release of Vanguard. I'm going to let things cook for 6 months or so and see how things pan out. </p><p>Live Update 32 looks pretty good and if Vanguard is prompting Sony to give us players more goodies to stay in EQ2 - thats all to the good (for us at least).</p><p>I have a level 10 Dwarf Paladin in Vanguard. The game has a TON of potential thats for sure but it has issues unique to it that may turn people off. The overwhelmingly faffy crafting system, enormous distances to travel, appallingly bad character graphics and spell animations and very simple quests (at least so far). Its also <i>extremely</i> slow. I struggle to get 10 fps and a lot of the time the game dips to single figure fps.</p><p>It has a lot of bugs but a lot of games do anyway on release. They will get fixed.</p>

[liveja]

<p>My nephew is playing VG lately. He has to turn his graphics settings way down, or else it's entirely too laggy to play. With those settings turned down, it looked a LOT like old-school EQ1, to me. Not very appealing at all.</p><p>With the graphics turned up, it looked more like EQ2 on the "high quality" setting, but was unplayably laggy. Sadly, my nephew's computer is better than mine, so I won't even think about VG for a while now.</p>

[Talz]

<cite>Miele wrote:</cite><blockquote>Vanbois are the biggest letdown in Vanguard. They'll slowly drive away every other player coming from other games. This trend started in early 2005 on their forums and got worse day by day, in beta 3 and 4, a simple comment in /ooc was often answered with a lot of hate, think WoW general chat reversed. Aside from that I like VG sceneries, but character models are incredibly ugly, if I can't love my char appearance, chances are I won't play the game for long. </blockquote> Heh.. Vanbois.. I like that term. I know exactly what you mean.  I gave it a chance during the real beta but besides thinking the game was stale and nowhere near its hype the constant garbage spewed everywhere drove me away.  I remember asking about one of the dark elf harvest quests because something wasn't working right and all of a sudden it erupted into a rant about how EQ2 is so buggy its unplayable.  These people can never give a single example of course. Besides being run by sleazy people that will lie at the drop of a hat the militant "Vanbois" hurt that game before it even launched.  I don't understand the need for every MMO that comes out to be A versus B.  If people like it then play it.  If not shut up, quit and do something you actually enjoy.

[Magiocracy]

Currently the worst thing by far about Vanguard is the thoroughly obnoxious community. I've never seen so many stuck-up, self-righteous and abusive [I cannot control my vocabulary] in one place in a very long time. And as someone else said, while the environmental graphics are quite nice, the 'plastic fantastic' character models and mid-90s animations and effects are truly, truly dreadful.

[Azan]

<cite>Magiocracy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Currently the worst thing by far about Vanguard is the thoroughly obnoxious community. I've never seen so many stuck-up, self-righteous and abusive [I cannot control my vocabulary] in one place in a very long time. And as someone else said, while the environmental graphics are quite nice, the 'plastic fantastic' character models and mid-90s animations and effects are truly, truly dreadful. </blockquote> This is what you get when you sell a game as a "return to the original hardcore MMO mentality". By its very nature the marketing of VG was intended to paint VG players as better than those from other MMOs. Anyone who <i>doesn't</i> drop their current MMO and come play VG isn't "hardcore enough". I guess that's what turned me off to the game more than anything was the condescending attitude by the developers that all the other MMOs on the market were for wussies and they were going to be the "true" MMO. Who gives a crap if WoW/EQ2 is "easier" than the original EQ. Comparing success in one versus success in the other is irrelevant. Each game sets its parameters for success, and all the players play within that system. So what if it's easier to level in EQ2? It's easier for <i>everyone</i>. If you really must have a peeing contest with other players, measure yourself within the same system, don't switch games and say "Hey look! This game's harder and I'm levelling slower, therefore I'm a uber hardcore player and you're not!" I've played EQ1, DAoC, CoH, EvE, WoW, RFO and now EQ2 and VG (yes I've played it, color me unimpressed). Never once did I think that because I played one, I was somehow "better" than other MMO players from another, and yet that seems to be VG's big selling point. "Your MMO is lame and easy, come play VG and be <i>hardcore!</i>". Blah. Overall, as a game, VG isn't at all an advancement in the genre, and I'd venture to say it's not even as good as the current generation of MMO's. Maybe it'll evolve into something truly good, but right now it has a long way to go.

[tass]

<cite>UlteriorModem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DrRothchild wrote:</cite><blockquote><i>I believe it's pretty telling they don't have official forums yet. If you don't think there's a reason for it, I've got a bridge to sell you.</i> </blockquote><p> Actually they have announced that they will have NO offical forums as it will "lead to a stronger community".</p><p>Hows that for customer service ?</p></blockquote>lol I wouldnt of put official forums up either. <a href="http://forums.vanguardsoh.com/forumdisplay.php?f=11" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.vanguardsoh.com/forum...isplay.php?f=11</a> Now since they deleted about every single thread in there its hard to tell but sure enough the title of the last thread replied to in there was <a href="http://forums.vanguardsoh.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=108437" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><b>Everything Sony touches turns to crap.</b></a> by <a href="http://forums.vanguardsoh.com/member.php?find=lastposter&f=21" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Kral</a> Thats just the tip of the crazy [Removed for Content] swarm of thousands of 10 to 40 year olds that swamped that thing in the WOW rules threads of vanguard can suck on my ...... and every other possible whine/flamefest made up of thousands of posts. No I think they made the right decidsion by only allowing a forum for technical support and player feedback.

[Jerr]

<p>Got the digital download of VG last week and played for 3 days.</p><p>I haven't touched VG since and here is why.</p><p>Everyone looks the pretty much the same.  I base a lot of my enjoyment on my character being unique.  WOW turned me off cause everyone looked alike in each race.  I made a Gnome sorceror and he had three choices for hair style-which is the dominant feature on a person or toon.  </p><p>After I entered the game, I just stayed there and watched new toons appear.  I went with the hair on the side and bald on the top look.  The next two toons who appeared looked just like me.  Overall I counted 4 in one hour who I couldnt tell from myself.  That is a big downside for me.</p><p>Compare that to EQ2 with the numerous hairstyles-woads-fur patterns.... and there is no comparison.  </p><p>Of course, now I have the game and Station Access I can play whenever.  But unless they fix the look of the toons I won't be spending much time in VG.</p>

[Morghur]

<p>I got to beta VG for a bit, however I wasn't overlly impressed, yeah granted it was in beta, it didn't really keep my attention.  </p><p>Thats only my opinion! I have alot of friends who play and enjoy it! Good luck to em' I say <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p>

[Zarador]

Well, I went out and bought a copy for my Girlfriend and I because we have all access.  After almost a week of playing (started last Wednesday) here are my observations: <ol><li>Had to rollback the video drivers on both PC's as the Nvidia cards we have won't allow the text to display without blotching out.</li><li>Forums? Forget them for the most part, Sigil apparently believes that they ruin the spirit of the community making the problems and questions I had hard to solve.</li><li>Crashes, expect them about every 30 minutes on two rather high end PC's with 2 Gigs of Ram, 4,600 AMD Duel Cores and 512 Video cards.</li><li>Lag Spikes are a constant problem as is warping.</li><li>Interface? Expect to not use the most popular site for them, Sigil does not approve of them.</li></ol>Other than that, it seems like it has potential, however I find myself more absorbed in the annoying crashes and lag which takes away from the game.

[Drift3r]

I beta tested VG and I felt the game had potential but it needed a ton of work. Sadly Sigil ran out of money and it released the crap known as VG. Sorry but VG is not worth subbing for if you are deeply involved in EQ2. EQ2 is a finished product and you don't have to wait 1-2 years to get the most out of it like you do VG. VG is just one huge bug after another and clearly a rushed product. Sorry but EQ2 is the place to be right now where as VG is something to look out for a year or 2 down the road if you get bored with EQ2. Then again with other MMO's that are way more polished and interesting coming out like LOTRO and WAR.  Those two alone have received a lot of good press and word of mouth reviews from folks who have had a chance to get a hands on preview of those titles. I'd say you'd be better waiting for them then for Sigil to get it's act together and clean up VG. Other wise I'd say stick with EQ2 all the way people. Oh and VG is not the "3rd Gen MMO" the devs claimed it was going to be. It's more of a been there and done that type of game except with a huge amount of bugs.

[Sebastien]

<p>I'm not defending Vanguard.. but on the topic of official forums, the first game I played where the dev did not have official forums was Guildwars.  I know this makes no sense at all but yes, lacking official forums actually *does* increase community spirit.  Official forums often become nothing more than a repository of the game's most strident critics and complainers.  Something changes when people feel they are talking to "the company" and not to eachother.  Unofficial forums do not tend to have this issue.  The caveat is that the developers have to really make it a point to frequent unofficial forums.</p><p>I find EQ2 a pleasant exception, but as I look back on games I've played in the past (including EQ2 at release), the official forums were rarely more than a source of dissonance.. things I never thought were problems suddenly became problems because 5000x were complaining about it, etc.  Now these forums are nice, though, and I think its because the people playing at this point genuinely like the game.</p>

[Avadale]

<cite>Jestaholic wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its So Pointless to compare these games, especially with Vanguard at its current state. <b>Vanguard has been release only 3 weeks!!!! Everquest2 has been out for some years.</b> Due to the fact that eq2 has been out for much longer; it has more polish. And to the people who say the game is unplayable are full of [I cannot control my vocabulary], Those are the people who can't run the game the way they wish they could. Also in Vanguard you actually have to work for levels which is much more in common with those who want more out of a game and not casual play. So IN ALL it will never be a fair comparison unless EQ2 re-launches ( ... ) at the same time Vanguard launches... Then it will be fair. </blockquote><p>Hell yeah it's fair to compare. Both games expect you to buy the box. Both games expect you to pay a monthly fee. </p><p>If Vanguard were still in Beta, your assesment would be correct. But now Sigil has deemed the game ready for launch and expect YOU to pay for it. Now that it's out there on the shelf next to other games, you're dang right its fair to compare Vanguard to any other game out there.</p>

[Zarador]

<cite>Sebastien wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm not defending Vanguard.. but on the topic of official forums, the first game I played where the dev did not have official forums was Guildwars.  I know this makes no sense at all but yes, lacking official forums actually *does* increase community spirit.  Official forums often become nothing more than a repository of the game's most strident critics and complainers.  Something changes when people feel they are talking to "the company" and not to eachother.  Unofficial forums do not tend to have this issue.  The caveat is that the developers have to really make it a point to frequent unofficial forums.</p><p>I find EQ2 a pleasant exception, but as I look back on games I've played in the past (including EQ2 at release), the official forums were rarely more than a source of dissonance.. things I never thought were problems suddenly became problems because 5000x were complaining about it, etc.  Now these forums are nice, though, and I think its because the people playing at this point genuinely like the game.</p></blockquote>I have to disagree with that 100%.  Yes, the forums are used for venting, usually in the general areas like this area, however they provide a huge wealth of information.  The lack of official forums in Vanguard make me feel like I'm stranded on an island somewhere whenever I encounter a problem.  You go to an official forum where the majority of posters are also players and you do a search for a clue to a solution, even if it's a quest that you just can't quite figure out and odds are somewhere in there is a post by someone who encountered something similair and has been provided an answer. At the risk of being a "Fanboi" who has not enjoyed the fact that Grimwell has kept us up to date on many matters and even given his opinions from a SoE/Gamer standpoint? When a developer steps in or even a Moderator and states "were aware of that, it's a problem were working on" I feel better than hearing that a friend of a cousin who knows someone on test who knows a friend who knows a developer says... As far as more difficult of a game? Can't say so far that it is.  In fact, some things like Harvesting are easier as you lock in a node, harvest it one time and get all of the raws in one shot.  You even have sets of harvesting, adventuring, crafting and diplomatic clothing that you swap out with one click.  In only drops (and I'm only like 40% geared) I can solo NPC's 2-3 levels higher on my Necro with little difficulty and even a player who has only reached say level 10, mind you, in a new game with a totally new economy, can afford a basic horse. All in all I think they got the concepts right, despite the lag, however I feel like they are trying to isolate the community by not having their own forums and further disassociating themselves with the best of the 3rd party sites with the exception of the ever wonderful, witty and informative TenTonHammer.  Yes I agree that IGE is associated with those sites and IGE supports 3rd party services that ruin the game, however, I can go to a concert at my local bar (surprisingly how many are held there) and enjoy the concert without being a supporter of drinking and driving.

[Gherig]

<cite>Avadale wrote:</cite><blockquote>Jestaholic wrote <p>Hell yeah it's fair to compare. Both games expect you to buy the box. Both games expect you to pay a monthly fee. </p></blockquote><p> Then to be honest, you need to compare both games in an equal state.  Compare EQ2 3 weeks after release and VG 3 weeks after release and then ill say you an honest look at the differences.  Dont forget, when EQ2 was our for 3 weks, the game was pretty bad, very bad actually.  Very little worked as intended and the lag / viseo lag was horrendous.</p><p>After 2+ years and 3 MAJOR live updates that essentially re-wrote the core of the game a few times in terms of gameplay, yeah you have a much much better game then VG.</p><p>I am willing to bet VG will, in 2+ years, have the same things happen to it and this entire thread will be looked upon as a utter waste of time and space at that point.</p>

[Avadale]

<cite>Gherig wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avadale wrote:</cite><blockquote>Jestaholic wrote <p>Hell yeah it's fair to compare. Both games expect you to buy the box. Both games expect you to pay a monthly fee. </p></blockquote><p> Then to be honest, you need to compare both games in an equal state.  Compare EQ2 3 weeks after release and VG 3 weeks after release and then ill say you an honest look at the differences.  Dont forget, when EQ2 was our for 3 weks, the game was pretty bad, very bad actually.  Very little worked as intended and the lag / viseo lag was horrendous.</p><p>After 2+ years and 3 MAJOR live updates that essentially re-wrote the core of the game a few times in terms of gameplay, yeah you have a much much better game then VG.</p><p>I am willing to bet VG will, in 2+ years, have the same things happen to it and this entire thread will be looked upon as a utter waste of time and space at that point.</p></blockquote><p>I don't agree with this at all. We are consumers with a choice to make. As I said, Sigil is expecting us to pay for this game just like Blizzard expects us to pay for WOW or Mythic expects us to pay for DAOC (or insert any other company/game). So, its VERY fair to compare the games when making this decision.</p><p> When we go to put down our hard earned money for a product (ANY product - not just software),  do we ever think to ourselves, "Hey - this [Insert Product Name Here] will probably be really good 6 months from now, so Ill just buy it now hoping it will become as good as I hope it will be"? I actually don't believe anyone really does this. What do we usually do? We compare it to competing products - as they are at this moment.</p><p>It's the consumer's choice. If you want to buy and pay for a game that doesn't match your expectations in hope that it will eventually is your business. But to tell me that comparing this game to another game is not relevant is something I don't agree with at all based on the fact that I'll be paying the same amount for a similar product.</p>

[Widgetblaster]

Well said, Avadale. I may consider paying for VG in six months. But once a game is released, it doesn't get a break - because it's now at it's most expensive state in regards to initial price plus annoyance factor. And I've done that dance already with too many other games, EQ2 included. (played at launch for 3 months, then came back last month) So I'm waiting to see what happens.

[TheSource123]

I'd just like to take a moment to say something to the people calling Vanguard "the most complex and deep MMO ever created." You're wrong, try EVE. The intense PvP that encompasses every part of the game, from it's economy to it's combat, the player to player politics, region control, piracy, the hostility in general that gives you consequences for your actions, it makes for the most complex MMO ever created. probably the best PvP MMO, period. Where as EQ2 is the best PvE MMO, period. Playing EVE and EQ2 together makes a great combo, since EVE is very hardcore (yet extremely rewarding) and EQ2 is more relaxed on the PvE side of things. Try it for a month or two, you might like it. Don't even bother if you find EQ2 hard to play, you have to be smart to play and understand this game, and it uses risk vs reward a lot. I think they both compliment eachother well, if you've ever wanted to just say "Hey, why should I have to do what everyone else does? I'm gonna go do it my way." Then you might find a great game that gives you a nice alternative to EQ2 when you don't feel like PvEing. (Plus you get skillpoints whether you are online or not, so you won't feel guilty). Anyways, Vanguard reminds me of Guild Wars, except instead of a huge, extremely obnoxious community, you get a very small, but nice, one. I don't see EQ2 getting replaced for at least the next 4-5 years, tbh, there is just too much to do in this game.

[Gherig]

<cite>TheSource123 wrote:</cite><blockquote> You're wrong, try EVE. </blockquote><p>Maybe a month or two ago EVE was worth it, but frankly EVE has lost all credibility for me and many many others.  It was recently exposed that Developers in EVE where creting and selling items or giving items to the playerbase on the side.  Some very rare plans were "Gifted" to a leading corp on EVE.  This lead to a very public investifation, which brought on a very public appology and admission that DEV was in fact helping players in EVE cheat to get ahead.</p><p>For the last month now EVE's CEO's and staff has been on a firing spree and a massive public image PR campaign to save any credibility they have left.  As far as I am concerned, EVE is finished, good game or not.  Its one thing when a player cheats and sells RMT goods, but when you have a paid employee and no less a Developer doing it, there is no salvaging that trust again for any price you pay for it.</p>

[Zarador]

Well the people who enjoy "meaningful deaths" will love VG.  I got to delete several quests today because they involve killing 15 of a type of creature and I got to the point where I realized the social aggro is so high that I die one in 5 pulls there, so it's break even exp at best on them.  Then of course there are great things like the Necro Feign Death Quest, the one that requires a full group to complete, so you can enhance your solo ability. While I will admit I'm enjoying the game to a large extent, it really feels like EQ-1 in the early years and I find myself asking "Did I not do all this before?" Bind in the town you arrived in, because you never know what may happen, then delete the quests from the previous town as it would take far to long to hoof it back there anyway.  It would appear that transportation at lower levels is not feature friendly.  That and trying to meet up with a friend who may be close to 30-45 minutes game travel time away because of their starting city.

[Surething]

<p>"Will EQ2 get lost in the release of Vanguard?"</p><p>The answer is yes.</p><p> Run and save yourself while you can.</p>

[Marcos]

Will EQ2 get lost due to Vanguard the answer is probably No.  What you have seen is a steady exodus of more experienced players to Vanguard and other games.  Also LOTR Online will be available end of March so you will lose more people there.  Is EQ2 a good game absolutely, I own 8 accounts, have played for over 2 years and have all my accounts maxed to 70, fabled and pretty much mastered out.  Saying that I now rarely play EQ2 and spend more time beta testing LOTR.  I was seriously disappointed in the release of EOF and the changes that went in so started to stay away from the game and now do not miss it.  With the release of Vanguard most raiding guilds on the Oasis server lost a ton of experienced people and they are having issues.  I do think that SOE made a mistake in how they rolled out EOF combining it with another combat change.  Not that the change wasn't needed but timing was a problem and it did turn off alot of folks.  Either way LOTR I think will pull more solo and group players from EQ2 and I bet you will see some server merges before the end of the summer.  I still log in to EQ2 to talk with friends and a lot of the serious players I know are going to check out some other games.  Again EQ2 will survive but I don't think it has the same potential that EQ1 and Ultima Online did.  Either way we will see in another year or so.

[Azan]

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I will admit I'm enjoying the game to a large extent, it really feels like EQ-1 in the early years and I find myself asking "Did I not do all this before?"</blockquote>Yes, you did, because that's what VG is. It's basically EQ1 with updated graphics and no zones. The thing is, that's not all as great as it sounds. A lot of us had some great fun times in EQ1, but there were soooooo many things about EQ1 that annoyed and frustrated people. We put up with them because there weren't a lot of other options at the time, but that doesn't mean EQ1 was a great game compared to today's crop. VG = Brad McQuaid trying to relive the EQ1 early years. Sounds great in theory, as we are finding out, not necessarily so great in practice. My guess is when things shake out, there will be a small, very vocal and defensive population playing that game, and most people will have either moved back to more comfortable and stable territory (WoW or EQ2) or will have moved on to one of the true "next-gen" MMO's (LOTRO, Gods & Heroes, Conan, etc). VG is an exercise in nostalgia, that sounds like it'd be fun until you realize it comes with all the awful baggage you thought you left in the 90's.

[Zarador]

<cite>Azanth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I will admit I'm enjoying the game to a large extent, it really feels like EQ-1 in the early years and I find myself asking "Did I not do all this before?"</blockquote>Yes, you did, because that's what VG is. It's basically EQ1 with updated graphics and no zones. The thing is, that's not all as great as it sounds. A lot of us had some great fun times in EQ1, but there were soooooo many things about EQ1 that annoyed and frustrated people. We put up with them because there weren't a lot of other options at the time, but that doesn't mean EQ1 was a great game compared to today's crop. VG = Brad McQuaid trying to relive the EQ1 early years. Sounds great in theory, as we are finding out, not necessarily so great in practice. My guess is when things shake out, there will be a small, very vocal and defensive population playing that game, and most people will have either moved back to more comfortable and stable territory (WoW or EQ2) or will have moved on to one of the true "next-gen" MMO's (LOTRO, Gods & Heroes, Conan, etc). VG is an exercise in nostalgia, that sounds like it'd be fun until you realize it comes with all the awful baggage you thought you left in the 90's. </blockquote>Yes...I was trying to pin exactly what it is that is not quite the same, then you nailed it. When we played EQ-1, for the most part it was THE Mmog on the Market Et Al. You really did not have a choice so you built up a reputation and realized everyone was doing the same so you made lots of new friends and had some pretty awesome groups.  Returned are the long runs to camps, death penalties and slower exp with far lesser rewards in the line of loot if your starting fresh as I am. Unfortunately, gone is the spirit of EQ-1 from 5 years ago. I spent almost 3 hours tonight finally resorting to NPC's that were 2-3 levels below me after incurring more debt than exp and a loss of 25% of my funds in repairs do to adds and laggy targeting. To those who feel that VG got the questing right and a purpose to hunt, I would add that my level 8 Quests are mainly deliver a note from this camp to that camp or kill 10-15 of a mob.  I also miss the auto no space taken in the inventory updates. I quickly find my bags full after an hour with 5 ears, two snouts, 6 essences, 4 scales....you get the picture.

[Zarador]

Well, I go to load the toon that I spent 10 hours playing yesterday (was my day off) and there it sits on the character select screen with the two toons that I started with to explore the game mechanics a bit with.  Of course the level 4 and 5 toons can log in perfectly, however my main can't.  Two hours later, no response from petition, live chat, technical support forums and here I sit wondering if it will be fixed. The only pages available that are "official" are the support pages and it appears that they don't get answered all that much by technical support. 

[Lord_Quaymar]

<p>I have to say that I reluctantly tried Vanguard out because, frankly, I have hit a wall in EQ2 and have little to do other than play the broker and farm SP/Faction.../YAWN.</p><p>That being said, I will warn anyone who wishes to try VG....it is EXTREMELY addictive!! It blows away EQ2 imho. There is sooooo much to do there, it's unbelieveable. You CAN be just a crafter and it actually has depth, challenge AND the stuff you make is actually good stuff that people want. You can be purely a diplomat if you chose to and travel from city to city negotiating with them and get rewarded for it. You can be just an adventurer too and solo, group or raid....it's all there and viable. Or, naturally, you can do all 3!</p><p>The world is absolutely HUGE! I'm not sure but I would bet that it's 5-10 times the size of EQ2. For example, I had this Fed Ex quest to a (cough) nearby town...it took me over a half an hour to get there by horse! Yes, you get a horse at level 10 and they are cheap to buy and you can buy gear for your horse that increases it's speed and stability. Then, due to the enormity of the world I am sure, at higher levels you can get flying mounts...awesome! Someone also told me that chariots will be a mount that can be made by Blacksmiths. I already saw someone go cruising by on a camel LOL.</p><p>There are just as many, if not more, quests to do as there are in EQ and the rewards are actually useful at the level you complete them!</p><p>The game is complex, has depth and fantastic graphics. I would not recommend it for the instant gratification types that just want to click their mouse and land in the zone of their choice and immediately start getting exp and loot though.</p>

[Zarador]

<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have to say that I reluctantly tried Vanguard out because, frankly, I have hit a wall in EQ2 and have little to do other than play the broker and farm SP/Faction.../YAWN.</p><p>That being said, I will warn anyone who wishes to try VG....it is EXTREMELY addictive!! It blows away EQ2 imho. There is sooooo much to do there, it's unbelieveable. You CAN be just a crafter and it actually has depth, challenge AND the stuff you make is actually good stuff that people want. You can be purely a diplomat if you chose to and travel from city to city negotiating with them and get rewarded for it. You can be just an adventurer too and solo, group or raid....it's all there and viable. Or, naturally, you can do all 3!</p><p>The world is absolutely HUGE! I'm not sure but I would bet that it's 5-10 times the size of EQ2. For example, I had this Fed Ex quest to a (cough) nearby town...it took me over a half an hour to get there by horse! Yes, you get a horse at level 10 and they are cheap to buy and you can buy gear for your horse that increases it's speed and stability. Then, due to the enormity of the world I am sure, at higher levels you can get flying mounts...awesome! Someone also told me that chariots will be a mount that can be made by Blacksmiths. I already saw someone go cruising by on a camel LOL.</p><p>There are just as many, if not more, quests to do as there are in EQ and the rewards are actually useful at the level you complete them!</p><p>The game is complex, has depth and fantastic graphics. I would not recommend it for the instant gratification types that just want to click their mouse and land in the zone of their choice and immediately start getting exp and loot though.</p></blockquote>I must fall into the instant gratification type.  After playing a toon for several days I expected to be "instantly gratified" by being able to log in my toon and play.  Three hours later, no answer from tech support, the live chat area down, no answer on their boards, no answer on my petition or /bug report.  Sure I can log in the level 4 toons that I made when I started the game, however the main toon I have been playing that lists on the select screen does not load, simply reverts back to the select screen. Great game by the way, so long as you require no support.

[Lord_Quaymar]

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have to say that I reluctantly tried Vanguard out because, frankly, I have hit a wall in EQ2 and have little to do other than play the broker and farm SP/Faction.../YAWN.</p><p>That being said, I will warn anyone who wishes to try VG....it is EXTREMELY addictive!! It blows away EQ2 imho. There is sooooo much to do there, it's unbelieveable. You CAN be just a crafter and it actually has depth, challenge AND the stuff you make is actually good stuff that people want. You can be purely a diplomat if you chose to and travel from city to city negotiating with them and get rewarded for it. You can be just an adventurer too and solo, group or raid....it's all there and viable. Or, naturally, you can do all 3!</p><p>The world is absolutely HUGE! I'm not sure but I would bet that it's 5-10 times the size of EQ2. For example, I had this Fed Ex quest to a (cough) nearby town...it took me over a half an hour to get there by horse! Yes, you get a horse at level 10 and they are cheap to buy and you can buy gear for your horse that increases it's speed and stability. Then, due to the enormity of the world I am sure, at higher levels you can get flying mounts...awesome! Someone also told me that chariots will be a mount that can be made by Blacksmiths. I already saw someone go cruising by on a camel LOL.</p><p>There are just as many, if not more, quests to do as there are in EQ and the rewards are actually useful at the level you complete them!</p><p>The game is complex, has depth and fantastic graphics. I would not recommend it for the instant gratification types that just want to click their mouse and land in the zone of their choice and immediately start getting exp and loot though.</p></blockquote>I must fall into the instant gratification type.  After playing a toon for several days I expected to be "instantly gratified" by being able to log in my toon and play.  Three hours later, no answer from tech support, the live chat area down, no answer on their boards, no answer on my petition or /bug report.  Sure I can log in the level 4 toons that I made when I started the game, however the main toon I have been playing that lists on the select screen does not load, simply reverts back to the select screen. Great game by the way, so long as you require no support. </blockquote><p>Heh...I had a support issue and got a reply within 5 minutes. I also reported an offensive name and it was changed within a few minutes AND I got a tell from a GM saying thanks for the report. There was some gold sales spammer sending mail to people and within a DAY, we got a system-wide broadcast announcing that "Plat Seller Name" has been removed from the game....enjoy!</p><p>Sure, there are some bugs but they are working very fast to eliminate them. </p>

[Zarador]

<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have to say that I reluctantly tried Vanguard out because, frankly, I have hit a wall in EQ2 and have little to do other than play the broker and farm SP/Faction.../YAWN.</p><p>That being said, I will warn anyone who wishes to try VG....it is EXTREMELY addictive!! It blows away EQ2 imho. There is sooooo much to do there, it's unbelieveable. You CAN be just a crafter and it actually has depth, challenge AND the stuff you make is actually good stuff that people want. You can be purely a diplomat if you chose to and travel from city to city negotiating with them and get rewarded for it. You can be just an adventurer too and solo, group or raid....it's all there and viable. Or, naturally, you can do all 3!</p><p>The world is absolutely HUGE! I'm not sure but I would bet that it's 5-10 times the size of EQ2. For example, I had this Fed Ex quest to a (cough) nearby town...it took me over a half an hour to get there by horse! Yes, you get a horse at level 10 and they are cheap to buy and you can buy gear for your horse that increases it's speed and stability. Then, due to the enormity of the world I am sure, at higher levels you can get flying mounts...awesome! Someone also told me that chariots will be a mount that can be made by Blacksmiths. I already saw someone go cruising by on a camel LOL.</p><p>There are just as many, if not more, quests to do as there are in EQ and the rewards are actually useful at the level you complete them!</p><p>The game is complex, has depth and fantastic graphics. I would not recommend it for the instant gratification types that just want to click their mouse and land in the zone of their choice and immediately start getting exp and loot though.</p></blockquote>I must fall into the instant gratification type.  After playing a toon for several days I expected to be "instantly gratified" by being able to log in my toon and play.  Three hours later, no answer from tech support, the live chat area down, no answer on their boards, no answer on my petition or /bug report.  Sure I can log in the level 4 toons that I made when I started the game, however the main toon I have been playing that lists on the select screen does not load, simply reverts back to the select screen. Great game by the way, so long as you require no support. </blockquote><p>Heh...I had a support issue and got a reply within 5 minutes. I also reported an offensive name and it was changed within a few minutes AND I got a tell from a GM saying thanks for the report. There was some gold sales spammer sending mail to people and within a DAY, we got a system-wide broadcast announcing that "Plat Seller Name" has been removed from the game....enjoy!</p><p>Sure, there are some bugs but they are working very fast to eliminate them. </p></blockquote>I can see how something as important as a gold seller or a offensive name would take priority over something trivial like not being able to log in your main.  Oddly, given the "Vision" it does not surprise me that these issues are handled 1st. As for me, it's been about 3 hours with zero response from any avenue of communication. Again, I really am enjoying the game, perhaps that's why my inability to log in my main toon ticks me off. The other two toons were only to see how things worked in the game and are the same class, hense, why play them.

[EvilMissKitty]

<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have to say that I reluctantly tried Vanguard out because, frankly, I have hit a wall in EQ2 and have little to do other than play the broker and farm SP/Faction.../YAWN.</p><p>That being said, I will warn anyone who wishes to try VG....it is EXTREMELY addictive!! It blows away EQ2 imho. </p><p>The world is absolutely HUGE! I'm not sure but I would bet that it's 5-10 times the size of EQ2. For example, I had this Fed Ex quest to a (cough) nearby town...it took me over a half an hour to get there by horse! </p> <p>------------------- </p></blockquote>I played VG from beta 2 to the launch, and I was not that impressed.  Then again, IMOP I am a casual/sometimes casual hardcore player.  To me, those types of missions equate to a "time-sink".  Running across an empty world, for an hour and a half as newbie was the type of thing that drew me away from VG.  In a way this is a good thing, because VG has its own hardcore base, while EQ2 has something a little less casual than WOW.  To that end, the answer to your question is NO, EQ2 will not get lost in the relase of Vanguard. I'd be more worried about LOTR.  I haven't played the beta yet but I've heard good things about it.  Though, I know I won't play because I know there will be too many LOTR movie bandwagon kids, etc.

[Lord_Quaymar]

<cite>EvilMissKitty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have to say that I reluctantly tried Vanguard out because, frankly, I have hit a wall in EQ2 and have little to do other than play the broker and farm SP/Faction.../YAWN.</p><p>That being said, I will warn anyone who wishes to try VG....it is EXTREMELY addictive!! It blows away EQ2 imho. </p><p>The world is absolutely HUGE! I'm not sure but I would bet that it's 5-10 times the size of EQ2. For example, I had this Fed Ex quest to a (cough) nearby town...it took me over a half an hour to get there by horse! </p> <p>------------------- </p></blockquote>I played VG from beta 2 to the launch, and I was not that impressed.  Then again, IMOP I am a casual/sometimes casual hardcore player.  To me, those types of missions equate to a "time-sink".  Running across an empty world, for an hour and a half as newbie was the type of thing that drew me away from VG.  In a way this is a good thing, because VG has its own hardcore base, while EQ2 has something a little less casual than WOW.  </blockquote><p>I am a VERY casual soloer mostly and I can see where I will have plenty to do for years to come as opposed to finishing EQ2 in a year where my solo character has made over 2k in plat, is maxed in all levels except a couple AA and is wearing all Legendary/Fabled and has nothing better to do than farm faction or play the market.</p><p>What you call a "time-sink", I call immersive content of the kind that kept me actively engaged in EQ1 for over 5 years. You see....being able to travel almost instantly to anywhere you want to go shrinks the world and enables people to get to the end much too quickly and then complain that there's not enough content. As the game progresses, there will be faster means of travel like the flying mounts which will be a good thing because by the the time you are high enough level to get said mounts, running through the same old zones will no longer be fun and it will be better to just fly over them...VERY smart imho. And, in between, there will be mounts like chariots that you can use to zoom through the newbie zones....wow...how much fun will that be? </p>

[Ba]

<p>LOTR is very good and has a lot of potential. A little low in content right now (and not much creature variety) but the engine is very polished. Also rewards crafting very well (crafted items are some of the best you can get). Its very WoW like in terms of the interface (which is a good thing) but exceeds it in many areas. Its a very melee orientated game, magic plays relatively low key right now (no dedicated Priest classes, no dedicated Mage classes -- unless u count Loremaster). I predict this game as being becoming a successful major MMORPG within 6 months.</p><p>Vanguard is.... well the best way i can describe it is kinda "blah" right now. Overall very high system requirements (yes, you need an even better rig than for EQ2). Even on my relatively high end machine it runs a little sluggishly on fairly moderate graphic settings. Current quests lack imagination and overall gameplay feels very bare bones. Has a lot of time-sinks (which some of our more confused community members equate to "challenging&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and progress feels dreadfully slow. Even travelling is slow. I just didn't get any feeling of satisfaction out of playing it. Maybe I just need to play it more or something but it certainly didn't grab me within a few hours like WoW and EQ/EQ2 did. Its a very "pretty" game though, if you can get it to run well on your machine -- graphics are very good.</p>

[Azan]

I am still baffled by these folks that think long travel times are a <i>good</i> thing. They may make the world feel bigger at first, but when you have to travel the same route over and over and the travel time is long, the good impression wears off very fast. Seriously, why do you want to pay money to watch your toon "travel" for 30 mins just to do a quest? Same thing with tougher death penalties. Yeah, death needs some kind of penalty, and EQ2's is probably too light. But really, why do you <i>want</i> to have to spend time on CR's, or grinding back hours (or even days) worth of xp debt because of a death due to bug, or party member DC, or whatever? It's like you guys are clamouring for <i>more</i> reason to sit in front of your computer waiting for cool stuff to happen. Personally, I'd prefer more cool stuff, thanks. Adding pointless timesinks is just a way for developers to procrastinate about adding <i>real</i> content. And you guys are eating it up, because OMG it's Brad McQuaid and he did EQ1 and it's a MMO for l33t people OMG OMG!!11! VG is <i>not</i> that good. It's not that <i>bad</i> either, but it's not nearly the quantum leap into MMO perfection that some people are making it out to be. Those people <i>want</i> it to be good, maybe because they've been looking forward to it for a long time, or they've emotionally invested themselves in it (or in the idea that it'll prove their MMO manhood) but right now, it's not worth the hype its getting.  

[Lord_Quaymar]

<cite>Bayl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>LOTR is very good and has a lot of potential. A little low in content right now (and not much creature variety) but the engine is very polished. Also rewards crafting very well (crafted items are some of the best you can get). Its very WoW like in terms of the interface (which is a good thing) but exceeds it in many areas. Its a very melee orientated game, magic plays relatively low key right now (no dedicated Priest classes, no dedicated Mage classes -- unless u count Loremaster). I predict this game as being becoming a successful major MMORPG within 6 months.</p><p>Vanguard is.... well the best way i can describe it is kinda "blah" right now. Overall very high system requirements (yes, you need an even better rig than for EQ2). Even on my relatively high end machine it runs a little sluggishly on fairly moderate graphic settings. Current quests lack imagination and overall gameplay feels very bare bones. Has a lot of time-sinks (which some of our more confused community members equate to "challenging"<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and progress feels dreadfully slow. Even travelling is slow. I just didn't get any feeling of satisfaction out of playing it. Maybe I just need to play it more or something but it certainly didn't grab me within a few hours like WoW and EQ/EQ2 did. Its a very "pretty" game though, if you can get it to run well on your machine -- graphics are very good.</p></blockquote><p>Haha...it's funny that you say the quests lack imagination...they are almost exactly the same as EQ1 and 2. Heck, there are even city tasks but they are called missives instead.</p><p>I have a relatively high end machine that runs EQ2 with no trouble and I can run VG with np at all. You just have to select a lower setting. For example, I have EQ2 running on High Quality and I have to run VG on Balanced..../shrug. </p><p>Regarding "time sinks" equalling challenge. I think it is you that is confused. At least as far as my opinion is concerned, you are. I equate these alleged time sinks to immersion. When you have to travel 30 minutes by horse to get to another town....that makes sense to me and is fitting for the "rural" setting of this game. It makes it seem a bit more realistic....to me anyway. Any other time sinks that are present are also present in every other game. Without them, one would log on and be a maxed out level 70 within a matter of days....how much fun would that be? Not very.</p><p>If progress seems slow, it's because you are accustomed to the WoW and EQ2 leveling speed which does more harm than good in the long run because people run out of stuff to do faster than new, quality content can be released. VG is faster than EQ1 was but slower than WoW and EQ2...this is a GOOD thing.</p>

[Siclone]

<cite>Azanth wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am still baffled by these folks that think long travel times are a <i>good</i> thing. They may make the world feel bigger at first, but when you have to travel the same route over and over and the travel time is long, the good impression wears off very fast. Seriously, why do you want to pay money to watch your toon "travel" for 30 mins just to do a quest? Same thing with tougher death penalties. Yeah, death needs some kind of penalty, and EQ2's is probably too light. But really, why do you <i>want</i> to have to spend time on CR's, or grinding back hours (or even days) worth of xp debt because of a death due to bug, or party member DC, or whatever? It's like you guys are clamouring for <i>more</i> reason to sit in front of your computer waiting for cool stuff to happen. Personally, I'd prefer more cool stuff, thanks. Adding pointless timesinks is just a way for developers to procrastinate about adding <i>real</i> content. And you guys are eating it up, because OMG it's Brad McQuaid and he did EQ1 and it's a MMO for l33t people OMG OMG!!11! VG is <i>not</i> that good. It's not that <i>bad</i> either, but it's not nearly the quantum leap into MMO perfection that some people are making it out to be. Those people <i>want</i> it to be good, maybe because they've been looking forward to it for a long time, or they've emotionally invested themselves in it (or in the idea that it'll prove their MMO manhood) but right now, it's not worth the hype its getting.   </blockquote><p>this is right on</p><p> and for the poster above me, you can take a while to get anywhere you want in eq2...dont take the griffon, the bell is nothign more then a boat ride, take the boats less often travel by foot as much as you can, and there you go, there is your statisfation.  When you die run around the zone for 15 mins to pentiize yourself for your death.  I mean just cause they make EQ2 less of a hassle so you have more time to actually play the game you dont have to play that way.  </p>

[Ganlu]

Every board I've read and person I've talked to says Vanguard boils down to a "forced grouping" game past the 15-20ish level range.  Whether this is true or not I don't know, but that alone is enough to drive me (and several other people I know) away from it. I personally don't like the harsher death penalties, increased travel times, and slower pace that Vanguard has.  While it's great for people who want "something to look forward to", it's hard to believe the game will change that much playing from 20-30 and playing from 30-40, so it all it does is drag out the same type of thing you're already doing.

[Lord_Quaymar]

<cite>Azanth wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am still baffled by these folks that think long travel times are a <i>good</i> thing. They may make the world feel bigger at first, but when you have to travel the same route over and over and the travel time is long, the good impression wears off very fast. Seriously, why do you want to pay money to watch your toon "travel" for 30 mins just to do a quest?   </blockquote>That's where the genious of their design is...as you level, you get faster and faster mounts. Eventually you get flying mounts that you can take anywhere and fly over that same old route eliminating this issue. Next!

[EshamBlm]

<p>I have played VSoH, am currently beta testing LOTRO and play EQ2 obviously. IMHO Vanguard is a nice game, and could be fun if you had the time to invest. Someone like me who has to solo 75% of the time and only has 1-2 hours to play 75% of the time, Vanguard is not for you. On the other hand if you do play like that, and want a change from EQ2 then LoTro is a very good game. </p><p> EQ2 is my favorite.....maybe because I been playing so long, or maybe because it's the only game I have gotten max level in....I don't know. I know that I own VSoH and don't play, and I will play LOTRO when it comes out.....along with EQ2 of course hehe</p>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azanth wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am still baffled by these folks that think long travel times are a <i>good</i> thing. They may make the world feel bigger at first, but when you have to travel the same route over and over and the travel time is long, the good impression wears off very fast. Seriously, why do you want to pay money to watch your toon "travel" for 30 mins just to do a quest? Same thing with tougher death penalties. Yeah, death needs some kind of penalty, and EQ2's is probably too light. But really, why do you <i>want</i> to have to spend time on CR's, or grinding back hours (or even days) worth of xp debt because of a death due to bug, or party member DC, or whatever? It's like you guys are clamouring for <i>more</i> reason to sit in front of your computer waiting for cool stuff to happen. Personally, I'd prefer more cool stuff, thanks. Adding pointless timesinks is just a way for developers to procrastinate about adding <i>real</i> content. And you guys are eating it up, because OMG it's Brad McQuaid and he did EQ1 and it's a MMO for l33t people OMG OMG!!11! VG is <i>not</i> that good. It's not that <i>bad</i> either, but it's not nearly the quantum leap into MMO perfection that some people are making it out to be. Those people <i>want</i> it to be good, maybe because they've been looking forward to it for a long time, or they've emotionally invested themselves in it (or in the idea that it'll prove their MMO manhood) but right now, it's not worth the hype its getting.   </blockquote><p>this is right on</p><p> and for the poster above me, you can take a while to get anywhere you want in eq2...dont take the griffon, the bell is nothign more then a boat ride, take the boats less often travel by foot as much as you can, and there you go, there is your statisfation.  When you die run around the zone for 15 mins to pentiize yourself for your death.  I mean just cause they make EQ2 less of a hassle so you have more time to actually play the game you dont have to play that way.  </p></blockquote><p>I have done that in EQ2 actually....just to see if it helped but it's just not the same as when the game is designed that way.</p><p>Death penalties are a GOOD thing. It makes people better players and actually adds some sense of danger to the game as opposed to...uh...duh...I R too lazy too aktuelly wun to da entwance...I R will just keel muself. LOL </p>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<cite>EshamBlm wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have played VSoH, am currently beta testing LOTRO and play EQ2 obviously. IMHO Vanguard is a nice game, and could be fun if you had the time to invest. Someone like me who has to solo 75% of the time and only has 1-2 hours to play 75% of the time, Vanguard is not for you. On the other hand if you do play like that, and want a change from EQ2 then LoTro is a very good game. </p><p> EQ2 is my favorite.....maybe because I been playing so long, or maybe because it's the only game I have gotten max level in....I don't know. I know that I own VSoH and don't play, and I will play LOTRO when it comes out.....along with EQ2 of course hehe</p></blockquote> I solo 90% of the time and can only play for an hour or so at a time and I LOVE VG. So far, I have soloed to level 14 quite easily.../shrug.

[Lord_Quaymar]

<cite>Ganluan wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally don't like the harsher death penalties, increased travel times, and slower pace that Vanguard has.  </blockquote>So you want an easier game....nothing wrong with that.

[Ishya]

wow, V:SoH has flying mounts! Lets all go there! no seriously, I anticipated on this game for quite some time, i actually passed on Beta because i wanted to see the "finished" game did i get a cold shower. EQ2 i can play in highest detail, full shadows on raids, and still get 50+ fps Vanguard, i cant even play on balanced with stuttering every 2 seconds. so no thank you, I'll stay here

[Jai1]

<p>The difficulty and frustration I get has nothing to do with intended game mechanics.  I wasn't able to craft with my main character until the recent fix.  I am still unable to do diplomacy.  Oh I'd like to try it and hear others like it but I can't drag the [Removed for Content] parlay cards to the tray.  I can drag them fine when not in a conversation.  So that was relatively two thirds of the game I couldn't check out until it gets fixed for me.  All I can do is bug and wait.  That seems to do well with the quest.  </p><p>I enjoy the game but for me personally...  I like fast progression.  Vanguard appeals to a different side of my gaming.  I surely won't play it exclusively.</p>

[Zarador]

So, a day has almost gone by, no response to the Petition, no response to the posts in their technically section and still no way to load my level 9 toon, the 4 and 5 toons load great.  So, I decided why let it ruin the day, I'll make a new toon and get it up there instead.  I get to level 7 and guess what?  That toon crashes every time he tres to leave the newbie area (Equivalent to being stuck in sunken city). No tech support, no petitions answered, no official forums, seems someones "Vision" got cloudy as this is the best game that I ever played...so long as I keep making new toons and leveling to say level 9 or so.

[Amytheyst]

<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ganluan wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally don't like the harsher death penalties, increased travel times, and slower pace that Vanguard has.  </blockquote>So you want an easier game....nothing wrong with that.</blockquote>Wether you like it or not Quay, the 14 people who like a harder game wont support it for development monetarily. It will go one of two ways: No money from subs. 5 years of painful development that will be shadowed by other games getting it right the first time. Oh the third scenario: Courtney Love will buy all stock in Sigil, and take them on tour. The devs will all shoot themselves in the head.

[Jai1]

ouch... but probably not that last scenerio.

[Amytheyst]

Sad fact though. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The Vanbois (lol) will stab at the air for quite sometime trying to make you believe otherwise, but its inevitable progression because of how things have already been done.  The chances of them pulling it off now make the last scenario more probable, comparing the odds.  

[IllusiveThoughts]

<p>i like playing vanguard.  I enjoy killing en masse with my sorceror.</p><p> I do not like all the bugs and glitches I have encountered so far.  Its a waiting game, I'm waiting for some nasty bug to hit me so I can be really miffed, and take a break from my new addiction.</p>

[Gungo]

<p>The sad fact of vanguard is it was marketed to the hardcore player. </p><p>The real fact is its just a time sink w no hardcore mode. Hell its not even a month and peopel are already lvl 40+ in that game. (cap is 50)</p><p>The real ball buster There is NO RAID content. Zero zilch nada nil none. Developement does not have a resemblance of a raid game/end game.</p><p>They are to busy fixing the core game.. something that obviosuly everyone even the vanbois admit should of been done in beta. Instead they accept the B.S of an unfinished overhyped and bottom-up'd product. Released way to early due to wasted developement resources. Compromises where made core features removed. Core classes transportation and animations were scrapped. And this doesn't even touch the problems with balance and gameplay stability issues that plague vanguard.</p><p>Brad said they need 250,000 subscribers ( not characters) to hit the break even point. The current total is still below that number. Your game is failing. Its in the red still and you are just drowning with the ship.</p><p>When vanguard is ready for actual release. You know like when the fix the crap they call a seamless world which is commonly referred to as chunking. When they actualy balance classes liek rogues who are completely gimped. When they fix core issues like lag and stability. i am not talking eq2 type lag/stability issues. I mean like characters who go on constant crash mode, characters who die appear 2 hours away on some far off island and leave your body there. When people are able to use diplomacy/tradeskills. On any character w/o being bugged. When 9/10th of your clients computers are able to run the game with some resemblance of stability. Mind you i love the grind i loved it in old eq1. Vanguard is a far cry from being a good game. Myabe the core and vision are nice. But the actual day to day gaming actual progress and character developement. Actual goals and progression are non exsistant in vanguard. Tell me ONE thing What DO you have to look forward to in vanguard when you cap out lvl 50 adventuring.  Seriously diplomacy has NOTHING to offer then a fun side game. We had this in eq1 it was call runes (a tetris type game). Crafting is neat you get ok items w it. But the system is empty. There is no way vanguard can release WORKING END GAME content to please the type of people they marketed the game to. AND THIS IS WHY it is a failing game. It can't even support its core market. Lets not even GET into the [Removed for Content] poor job of marketing and Customer support in vanguard. </p><p>People complain about eq2. LoL In vanguard UNLESS your complaint has to do w a name violation they wont even acknowledge you. Heaven forbid you have a real complaint like you character is stuck at lvl 9, or your body is in a zone 2 hours away that YOU NEVER been to. You can't craft or use diplomacy etc. But o wait someone named thier ranger LEGOLAS lets call out the calvalry. AND Marketing unless you rolled in the gaming community NO ONE even heard of vanguard. There are no billboards, no comercials, barely any posters in gaming stores. Maybe they realized the game is not ready for release and decided not to advertise until it was complete or maybe they had no money so decided not to advertise. Maybe thats the same reason they couldn't afford a real forum. </p><p>I can go on and on about how horrid  Vanguard is, how many bugs and problems they have and are going to continue to have but this has all been said read and done already. And no matter what the hundreds of people who tried vanguard and beta vanguard will say. There are always the vanbois who will sit there and drink the Koolaid.  </p><p>That all said yes i love the zones in vangaurd (character models suck), i love the large conceptually seamless (chunking sucks)world. I love the 3d world and flying mounts. i love the concept of some classes and how they made some classes like necros. The bottom line is none of that makes a good game. It may add to the game but the actual enjoyablity and goals are non exsistant. Its the purest form of timesink and grind. With an empty goal ahead. Why do i do these quests? Why do i raise diplomacy? None of it truly matters. Its empty. There are no epic wpns. No class based defining quests lines. Diplomacy doesnt affect the npcs in the way the intereact. And i cna adventure to lvl 50 with no hope for a full time raiding game for at least another 6+ months. Even then it will be just fillier raid content until the development team pulls thier heads out of thier butts and fixes this game they spent almost 6 years on. 6 years do you guys realise how much time brad and Co. wasted. on Vanguard. </p><p>And you can't blame SOE. heck even microsoft pulled out when they saw development was going no where. SOE/sigil made them a release date you know why because there comes a point where the red line meets actually projected sales. When you red line passes those sales you have now hit the point of no return. The point where no matter what your product will not make base price. SOE even puled developers from other games to help SIGIL in its failing product. </p><p>So now i wear the vanguard t-shirt and all it says is i paid $80 for vanguard and all i got was a sore A@@.</p>

[Zarador]

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The sad fact of vanguard is it was marketed to the hardcore player. </p><p>The real fact is its just a time sink w no hardcore mode. Hell its not even a month and peopel are already lvl 40+ in that game. (cap is 50)</p><p>The real ball buster There is NO RAID content. Zero zilch nada nil none. Developement does not have a resemblance of a raid game/end game.</p><p>They are to busy fixing the core game.. something that obviosuly everyone even the vanbois admit should of been done in beta. Instead they accept the B.S of an unfinished overhyped and bottom-up'd product. Released way to early due to wasted developement resources. Compromises where made core features removed. Core classes transportation and animations were scrapped. And this doesn't even touch the problems with balance and gameplay stability issues that plague vanguard.</p><p>Brad said they need 250,000 subscribers ( not characters) to hit the break even point. The current total is still below that number. Your game is failing. Its in the red still and you are just drowning with the ship.</p><p>When vanguard is ready for actual release. You know like when the fix the crap they call a seamless world which is commonly referred to as chunking. When they actualy balance classes liek rogues who are completely gimped. When they fix core issues like lag and stability. i am not talking eq2 type lag/stability issues. I mean like characters who go on constant crash mode, characters who die appear 2 hours away on some far off island and leave your body there. When people are able to use diplomacy/tradeskills. On any character w/o being bugged. When 9/10th of your clients computers are able to run the game with some resemblance of stability. Mind you i love the grind i loved it in old eq1. Vanguard is a far cry from being a good game. Myabe the core and vision are nice. But the actual day to day gaming actual progress and character developement. Actual goals and progression are non exsistant in vanguard. Tell me ONE thing What DO you have to look forward to in vanguard when you cap out lvl 50 adventuring.  Seriously diplomacy has NOTHING to offer then a fun side game. We had this in eq1 it was call runes (a tetris type game). Crafting is neat you get ok items w it. But the system is empty. There is no way vanguard can release WORKING END GAME content to please the type of people they marketed the game to. AND THIS IS WHY it is a failing game. It can't even support its core market. Lets not even GET into the [Removed for Content] poor job of marketing and Customer support in vanguard. </p><p>People complain about eq2. LoL In vanguard UNLESS your complaint has to do w a name violation they wont even acknowledge you. Heaven forbid you have a real complaint like you character is stuck at lvl 9, or your body is in a zone 2 hours away that YOU NEVER been to. You can't craft or use diplomacy etc. But o wait someone named thier ranger LEGOLAS lets call out the calvalry. AND Marketing unless you rolled in the gaming community NO ONE even heard of vanguard. There are no billboards, no comercials, barely any posters in gaming stores. Maybe they realized the game is not ready for release and decided not to advertise until it was complete or maybe they had no money so decided not to advertise. Maybe thats the same reason they couldn't afford a real forum. </p><p>I can go on and on about how horrid  Vanguard is, how many bugs and problems they have and are going to continue to have but this has all been said read and done already. And no matter what the hundreds of people who tried vanguard and beta vanguard will say. There are always the vanbois who will sit there and drink the Koolaid.  </p><p>That all said yes i love the zones in vangaurd (character models suck), i love the large conceptually seamless (chunking sucks)world. I love the 3d world and flying mounts. i love the concept of some classes and how they made some classes like necros. The bottom line is none of that makes a good game. It may add to the game but the actual enjoyablity and goals are non exsistant. Its the purest form of timesink and grind. With an empty goal ahead. Why do i do these quests? Why do i raise diplomacy? None of it truly matters. Its empty. There are no epic wpns. No class based defining quests lines. Diplomacy doesnt affect the npcs in the way the intereact. And i cna adventure to lvl 50 with no hope for a full time raiding game for at least another 6+ months. Even then it will be just fillier raid content until the development team pulls thier heads out of thier butts and fixes this game they spent almost 6 years on. 6 years do you guys realise how much time brad and Co. wasted. on Vanguard. </p><p>And you can't blame SOE. heck even microsoft pulled out when they saw development was going no where. SOE/sigil made them a release date you know why because there comes a point where the red line meets actually projected sales. When you red line passes those sales you have now hit the point of no return. The point where no matter what your product will not make base price. SOE even puled developers from other games to help SIGIL in its failing product. </p><p>So now i wear the vanguard t-shirt and all it says is i paid $80 for vanguard and all i got was a sore A@@.</p></blockquote>Well, 9 hours later with a second character stuck at the character select screen I could not have said it better.  I figured out after a day of posting on their Tech area and filling out bug reports and petitions why they elected to add it to the SoE All Access Pass.  Simply put, they counted on idiots like myself figuring that it would only cost me $100 for two copies (one for my Girlfriend, one for myself) and the <coughs> free monthly rate was about what it's worth. 9 hours people, nine frigging hours and no response as to why my toon are stuck.  Imagine being able to load up that alt of yours and run about the world, but not your main.  People go nuts here when they bring down the servers at 7:00 a.m. PST without a warning, imagine having crash after crash and not a single Tech Support reply.  want to know how good VG is? Check their only forum, a tech support forum and you will find hundreds of posts with no responses.

[StarryEyedElf]

While this isn't a thread where people are bashing each other over the head like goons, there are some fundamental problems: 1. Many of you are bashing another game, which is not very nice. 2. This is EQ2's <b><i>GAMEPLAY</i></b> board. Vanguard has little to do with the gameplay here. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I understand they don't have their own boards to vent about this stuff on, but this is hardly the place for this. Sorry guys.