new MIS mobs

[Druid03]

<DIV>anyone tried MIS yet? (i doubt it....but someone will soon :smileytongue: )</DIV> <DIV>we are lockd till sunday so we cant test these funky "new" nameds</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wonder what they did to em.....i bet they all have eleventy billion HP now :smileysad:</DIV>

[Jai1]

<DIV>Sure, I got a degree for it in college. =)</DIV>

[Troubor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Druid03 wrote:<BR> <DIV>anyone tried MIS yet? (i doubt it....but someone will soon :smileytongue: )</DIV> <DIV>we are lockd till sunday so we cant test these funky "new" nameds</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wonder what they did to em.....i bet they all have eleventy billion HP now :smileysad:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>We'll find out Saturday morning, that's when our little raid alliance will give it a shot.</P> <P>As an aside, I can predict what will happen...</P> <P>a)  "Hardcore" raiders complained that MMIS was "too easy" for the loot contained therein, so they make it harder as of GU31.  "Oh no..how dare the people who actually don't raid each and every second of each day they play actually be able to clear the zone!"</P> <P>b)  Same "Hardcore" raiders now think it's too difficult, they now complain about the changes they wished implimented</P> <P>c)  Zone sits at this new difficulty for the "Hardcore" raiders for a good three to six months.</P> <P>d)  Zone is finally nerfed, in difficulty if not actual settings, to how it was before GU31.</P> <P>e)  "Hardcore" raiders complain.</P> <P> </P> <P>And no, I'm not flaming the Hardcore (with our without quotes) raiders with this.  In fact, I'm on Lucan d'Lere, not sure if we HAVE hardcore raiders.  I guess Strike qualifies, or comes the closest, I'll let the other guilds if they see this chime in with what they think, I don't know Banished and their leader well enough to comment for instance.  But I guess my point is that it does seem like SOE listens to the vocal minority first, then considers their actions.  And this isn't just with raids, but with almost anything.  YET..when a majority point out an bug or problem...we seem to get very little attention.</P> <P>Who knows, maybe the true intent of SOE was to have MMIC a bit more difficult then it was pre-GU31.  And no, I don't want it on easy mode, I want it how it was intended.  If it was intended at the currently level of difficulty, then fine.  But if it was intended to be at pre GU31 levels, WITH the same loot table it had..then IMO a minority, maybe with good intentions, but a minority complained without considering anything but their own needs.</P> <P>Well..there you go.  Sure I'll get flamed.  Would like to think people who disagree can stay civil, but I know how these forums go.  Oh well, have at it.  </P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arvig wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Druid03 wrote:<BR> <DIV>anyone tried MIS yet? (i doubt it....but someone will soon :smileytongue: )</DIV> <DIV>we are lockd till sunday so we cant test these funky "new" nameds</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wonder what they did to em.....i bet they all have eleventy billion HP now :smileysad:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>We'll find out Saturday morning, that's when our little raid alliance will give it a shot.</P> <P>As an aside, I can predict what will happen...</P> <P>a)  "Hardcore" raiders complained that MMIS was "too easy" for the loot contained therein, so they make it harder as of GU31.  "Oh no..how dare the people who actually don't raid each and every second of each day they play actually be able to clear the zone!"</P> <P>b)  Same "Hardcore" raiders now think it's too difficult, they now complain about the changes they wished implimented</P> <P>c)  Zone sits at this new difficulty for the "Hardcore" raiders for a good three to six months.</P> <P>d)  Zone is finally nerfed, in difficulty if not actual settings, to how it was before GU31.</P> <P>e)  "Hardcore" raiders complain.</P> <P> </P> <P>And no, I'm not flaming the Hardcore (with our without quotes) raiders with this.  In fact, I'm on Lucan d'Lere, not sure if we HAVE hardcore raiders.  I guess Strike qualifies, or comes the closest, I'll let the other guilds if they see this chime in with what they think, I don't know Banished and their leader well enough to comment for instance.  But I guess my point is that it does seem like SOE listens to the vocal minority first, then considers their actions.  And this isn't just with raids, but with almost anything.  YET..when a majority point out an bug or problem...we seem to get very little attention.</P> <P>Who knows, maybe the true intent of SOE was to have MMIC a bit more difficult then it was pre-GU31.  And no, I don't want it on easy mode, I want it how it was intended.  If it was intended at the currently level of difficulty, then fine.  But if it was intended to be at pre GU31 levels, WITH the same loot table it had..then IMO a minority, maybe with good intentions, but a minority complained without considering anything but their own needs.</P> <P>Well..there you go.  Sure I'll get flamed.  Would like to think people who disagree can stay civil, but I know how these forums go.  Oh well, have at it.  </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What do you consider hard core guilds? Because i can see maybe ~6 major guilds worldwide still left from the vanguard exodus still clearing MMIS fairly soon w the majority of normal to high end raids (~5 day raid guilds) eventually clearing it. And the casual/pickup (1-3 day) guilds having the most trouble.

[Soldancer]

Would be good if now, after all this hardcore competition nerds have left to Vanguard, EoF raiding will be more aligned to normal people - the ones who simply wanna have some good entertainment in the evening after the work and dont wanna do high-performance sports. And no, I don't ask for everything presented on a silver tablet.Only one named in MMIS was really too easy (the one who casts a level debuff at the beginning), all other mobs are hard enough, there is no need to make all mobs harder because of only one mob.SOE what's is the future of EQ2 raiding after the exodus of the nerds? Should it all stay like it is? In this case the whole EoF raidcontent and some of the KoS content will be used very rarely in the future - no nerds here who can do it.We normal people really expect a significant change in the near future. We want entertainment and not competition.

[Quaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Soldancer wrote:<BR> And no, I don't ask for everything presented on a silver tablet.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>nope, just easy to obtain end game loot. </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Soldancer wrote:<BR>the ones who simply wanna have some good entertainment in the evening after the work and dont wanna do high-performance sports. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Maybe T6 zones would suit you better?<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Soldancer wrote:<BR><BR>We normal people really expect a significant change in the near future. We want entertainment and not competition.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sorry, who elected you as the voice of the "what you define as normal" game playing population? The zone was [Removed for Content] (bar Mayong), no strat even needed for 2 of the named, 2 others just needing a quick burn and one with a scout tank. It was never intended to be a pickup raid farm zone.</P> <P>Hopefully it has been patched into a reasonable challenge now . </P> <P><BR><BR> </P><p>Message Edited by Quaan on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:29 PM</span>

[Thug]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>wonder what they did to em.....i bet they all have eleventy billion HP now :smileysad:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>confirmed, this is what happened. more like 4+ million though

[Vormulac]

<P>eh more happend though thier hp did get  a slight boost in some area's, some things changed some stayed the same. Still doable though. But yeah some guilds will have alot of trouble out of 2 of these named <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, the serverwide top guilds will blow through em as normal though.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Vormulac Unsleep</P> <P>Guild Leader <A href="http://shatteredmoon.org" target=_blank>Shattered Moon</A></P> <P>Neriakithicor</P>

[Zelkova]

I hope they gave them ALL the dispell from the seedling drakes in EH! <span>:smileyhappy:</span>Plenty of adds with stunning shards would be great too.<div></div>

[theriatis]

<DIV>..... and Ninjas ! Everyone loves Ninjas ! (except Haley, of course, she loves pirates ! (who's Haley ? <A href="http://www.giantitp.com/" target=_blank>www.giantitp.com</A>)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can we have a couple of new Raidzones please ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Designed like Lab, DT, HoS, Lyceum, with the difficulty of EoF Raids, but without the necessity to run through another 16h+ Zone to kill the Boss ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards, theriatis.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(just in case you didn't notice: There were invisible [sarcasm] Tags in this message. You need at least See Invis 401 to see them, or Intelligence 10 and higher).</DIV>

[Frodex]

<div><blockquote><hr>Divinemd wrote:<div></div> <p>eh more happend though thier hp did get  a slight boost in some area's, some things changed some stayed the same. Still doable though. But yeah some guilds will have alot of trouble out of 2 of these named <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, the serverwide top guilds will blow through em as normal though.</p> <p>Vormulac Unsleep</p> <p>Guild Leader <a href="http://shatteredmoon.org" target="_blank">Shattered Moon</a></p> <p>Neriakithicor</p><hr></blockquote>I was "whiffing" a lot more last night but it could because I wear the fruity dirge fabled helm and suck!</div>

[Nuggus]

Previous to the changes my guild could only clear up to Mayong. After the changes we cleared every named up to Mayong. The changes are really not bad at all.<div></div>

[Pins]

These changes made me laugh at what they mean by more difficulty.In fact, not just named were changed, now if you had difficulty with the Charming Pair+Other, you will probably die on those too since they have more HP. They also did slightly change Mayong(not by much at all). But I just find it funny, that Mayong has as much HP as his so-called Minions. One would think he'd have more HP than them, but alas, that's not the case.P.S. The yellow+3 heroic vampire went to yellow+3 epic vampires(all have AEs, but fairly weak ones), and instead of 1.5 million HP and 70k hp, we're up to 5 million HP and 280k HP. Orange Vampires got 5 million instead of 3.3-3.5 million HP. And the Gargoyle, 5 million HP! Completely [I cannot control my vocabulary] changes. Please, make mobs more difficult, not more annoying.

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR>These changes made me laugh at what they mean by more difficulty.<BR><BR>In fact, not just named were changed, now if you had difficulty with the Charming Pair+Other, you will probably die on those too since they have more HP. They also did slightly change Mayong(not by much at all). But I just find it funny, that Mayong has as much HP as his so-called Minions. One would think he'd have more HP than them, but alas, that's not the case.<BR><BR>P.S. The yellow+3 heroic vampire went to yellow+3 epic vampires(all have AEs, but fairly weak ones), and instead of 1.5 million HP and 70k hp, we're up to 5 million HP and 280k HP. Orange Vampires got 5 million instead of 3.3-3.5 million HP. And the Gargoyle, 5 million HP! Completely [I cannot control my vocabulary] changes. Please, make mobs more difficult, not more annoying.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No one expected anything more. In order for them to make mmis named difficult they would of had to rescript the entire events. Something i doubt the developer has the time to do. Instead of realizing the script he created really was not well planned they just beefed up the aoe's and hp's and atk of the named and adds. The fault of the zone was the entire script of named to begin with. Well tactician armour is a decent script he probably hits to weak still though. But the vampires w that 6% aoe if not killed fast enough was ill concieved. The developer truly underestimated the spike DPS of raids and thus the design of those named is basically broken. </P> <P>Right now i just hope felwithe castle raid zone is at least equal to EH difficulty w like 50% less trash. No date was given to this zone but i hope its in by LU34/35.</P>

[kenm]

Ooh, did they give the blood colossus's more HP too?I just get such a massive hard on every time we kill mobs that are incredibly easy but have an obscene amount of HP. <span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div>

[Mr. Dawki]

i bet they all have eleventy billion HP now <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif" width=16 border=0> <HR> how many zeros is that again? :smileyvery-happy:

[Krontak]

Oh great, more stupid trash in another zone.  If they can't get crap right the first time, what makes you think they'll get it right when people complain that a zone is too easy and they should make it more difficult?   If anyone has any suggestions on how to increase difficulty and seems to have any sort of influence on content design which someone appartly does because these stupid HP changes where made, be more [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing specific for [I cannot control my vocabulary]s sake before they start [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing up the whole game and just add so many hit points to crap everything is just a snooze fest!  I swear, people ask for crap and don't even think about the side effects of thier requests at times.  God [I cannot control my vocabulary] fly by the seat of your pants decision making is not the way to make decisions.  If you don't know crap about decision analysis then [I cannot control my vocabulary].

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Krontak wrote:Oh great, more stupid trash in another zone.  If they can't get crap right the first time, what makes you think they'll get it right when people complain that a zone is too easy and they should make it more difficult?   If anyone has any suggestions on how to increase difficulty and seems to have any sort of influence on content design which someone appartly does because these stupid HP changes where made, be more [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing specific for [I cannot control my vocabulary]s sake before they start [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing up the whole game and just add so many hit points to crap everything is just a snooze fest!  I swear, people ask for crap and don't even think about the side effects of thier requests at times.  God [I cannot control my vocabulary] fly by the seat of your pants decision making is not the way to make decisions.  If you don't know crap about decision analysis then [I cannot control my vocabulary].<hr></blockquote>This whole insanely large HP has been a problem with EQ2 since the begining. Their idea of difficulty is let's toss an extra million HP on a mob!

[Korpo]

You mean autoattacking a trash mob for 20 minutes so you can get garbage that nobody wants for their alts isn't fun?<div></div>

[Troubor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What do you consider hard core guilds? Because i can see maybe ~6 major guilds worldwide still left from the vanguard exodus still clearing MMIS fairly soon w the majority of normal to high end raids (~5 day raid guilds) eventually clearing it. And the casual/pickup (1-3 day) guilds having the most trouble.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hardcore guilds?  The very vocal tiny minority that raid 6 or 7 days a week, that from what I understand actually call up members at 4AM or some such to let each other know that a contested is up.</P> <P>Again, that's not a flame...just a comment on how it seems like this very vocal minority seems to cause content to be adjusted..only to have it adjusted back a few weeks or months later.</P> <P>Anyway, I'm sure the accusations that I want everything on a silver platter will be made because I dare to say this will happen.  C'est la poop, feel free to do so.  It may shock those who make such claims, but no..commenting on such changes, and feeling that the hardcore raider is getting a bit too much attention doesn't mean I want things on easy mode.  It's simply a comment and an opinion.  Since I'm in a casual raid group, using the definition above, if the INTENT of the zone was to have it difficult or impossible for such a guild, at least currently, that's fine.</P> <P>I guess my point is SOE tends to shift zones around for a very tiny minority IMO..and possibly wreck havoc on their own intent for said zones.  I do wonder if many of the hardcore raid players, when they complain about either how difficult a zone is, or about the loot itimization, if they ever consider anything other then their own needs and interests.</P> <P>Anyway..again flame away if you'd like.  Just voicing opinion.  Probably not a popular one.</P> <P>But remember this..if you do flame me..doesn't mean you're right.  :p  Just means you're childish enough to flame me.</P> <P> </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Arvig wrote:I guess my point is SOE tends to shift zones around for a very tiny minority IMO..and possibly wreck havoc on their own intent for said zones.  I do wonder if many of the hardcore raid players, when they complain about either how difficult a zone is, or about the loot itimization, if they ever consider anything other then their own needs and interests.<hr></blockquote>The same could be said about everybody else. Do you think about the hardcore when you make your complaints about when a raid zone is too hard? No, you're thinking about yourself. So please, don't try to play this game where the hardcore don't think about other peoples interests(because do you even need to be playing this game?), because all it will do is make it so you are in that exact same position where you don't think about hardcore raiders interests.

[Krontak]

<DIV>So, is it just me?  Seems the spikes from EH are required now. </DIV>

[theriatis]

<DIV>Hi,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hardcore Raiders = 1% (at most) of the Playerbase. If Sony introduces 100 T7 Raidzones and makes 1 for the Hardcore Guilds, i have no problems with that.</DIV> <DIV>The Problem ist that with EoF they introduced not enough content for the Endgame (read: Lvl 70) Players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And with that damned Lag here on Valor, we don't stand any chance, even if the Mobs were as "easy" as they were before LU31.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>@krontak: I'm still with you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards, theriatis (Valor).</DIV>

[Mordicus]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Arvig wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Gungo wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> </blockquote>What do you consider hard core guilds? Because i can see maybe ~6 major guilds worldwide still left from the vanguard exodus still clearing MMIS fairly soon w the majority of normal to high end raids (~5 day raid guilds) eventually clearing it. And the casual/pickup (1-3 day) guilds having the most trouble. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Hardcore guilds?  The very vocal tiny minority that raid 6 or 7 days a week, that from what I understand actually call up members at 4AM or some such to let each other know that a contested is up.</p> <p>Again, that's not a flame...just a comment on how it seems like this very vocal minority seems to cause content to be adjusted..only to have it adjusted back a few weeks or months later.</p> <p>Anyway, I'm sure the accusations that I want everything on a silver platter will be made because I dare to say this will happen.  C'est la poop, feel free to do so.  It may shock those who make such claims, but no..commenting on such changes, and feeling that the hardcore raider is getting a bit too much attention doesn't mean I want things on easy mode.  It's simply a comment and an opinion.  Since I'm in a casual raid group, using the definition above, if the INTENT of the zone was to have it difficult or impossible for such a guild, at least currently, that's fine.</p> <p>I guess my point is SOE tends to shift zones around for a very tiny minority IMO..and possibly wreck havoc on their own intent for said zones.  I do wonder if many of the hardcore raid players, when they complain about either how difficult a zone is, or about the loot itimization, if they ever consider anything other then their own needs and interests.</p> <p>Anyway..again flame away if you'd like.  Just voicing opinion.  Probably not a popular one.</p> <p>But remember this..if you do flame me..doesn't mean you're right.  :p  Just means you're childish enough to flame me.</p> <hr></blockquote>Troubor you can take cheap shots at the better guilds all you like, it wont change the fact that progression was slated as CMF < FTH < EH < MMIS, and MMIS was not in line with progression.</div><p>Message Edited by uccellin19 on <span class=date_text>02-03-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 PM</span>

[laddich]

<P>Confirmed HP of nameds 5-5,5 mln</P> <P>Evantyi also has increased +parry +deflection, melee dps will suck on him. Fight is likely to last way longer due to this and as such watch out for the respawning chaperone.</P>

[Korpo]

<div><blockquote><hr>uccellin19 wrote:<div></div><div>Troubor you can take cheap shots at the better guilds all you like, it wont change the fact that progression was slated as CMF < FTH < EH < MMIS, and MMIS was not in line with progression.</div><hr></blockquote>What he said. There's a reason Wuoshi drops wolfsbane (better late than never) and trash in EH drops vampire stakes; you're supposed to have beaten Wuoshi before you start clearing out MMIS. They made MMIS a cakewalk, which threw the whole system off. They fixed that, good for them.I'm not looking forward to killing trash mobs with 5 million hp, but that's the way it is. I just wish they would have fixed it before pickup raids went in and got piles of discoveries.</div>

[Troubor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arvig wrote:<BR>I guess my point is SOE tends to shift zones around for a very tiny minority IMO..and possibly wreck havoc on their own intent for said zones.  I do wonder if many of the hardcore raid players, when they complain about either how difficult a zone is, or about the loot itimization, if they ever consider anything other then their own needs and interests.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>The same could be said about everybody else. Do you think about the hardcore when you make your complaints about when a raid zone is too hard? No, you're thinking about yourself. So please, don't try to play this game where the hardcore don't think about other peoples interests(because do you even need to be playing this game?), because all it will do is make it so you are in that exact same position where you don't think about hardcore raiders interests.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yay, someone twisted my words!  Goody!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Thanks for missing my point.</P> <P>My point was IF this is what the developers intended, the way MMIS is now, then good.  Leave it.  But IF they are only listening to a tiny minority who shouts the loudest, then they are alienating the vast majority simply because a minority was vocal and yelled the loudest.</P> <P>So, don't twist my words again please, thank you.  :p</P> <P> </P>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>Personally I think the random AOE lagspikes are the most challenging aspect of the zone, see sony can find a way to make the game more difficult without adding another two million hp's to a named mob, oh wait they did that to nm.</DIV>

[Mermidon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arvig wrote:<BR> <P><BR>Yay, someone twisted my words!  Goody!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Thanks for missing my point.</P> <P>My point was IF this is what the developers intended, the way MMIS is now, then good.  Leave it.  But IF they are only listening to a tiny minority who shouts the loudest, then they are alienating the vast majority simply because a minority was vocal and yelled the loudest.</P> <P>So, don't twist my words again please, thank you.  :p<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Are you aware the portion of players that want everything made easy but drop end game loot is a small minority as well?</P> <P>Try and see what I wrote there.  I described your attitude, not your playstyle.  In your posts your assigning an attitude to a playstyle so your arguement is completely invalid.  Being a hardcore raider has nothing to do with wanting proper risk vs reward.  There are probably plenty of hardcore raiders who want things handed to them and plenty of non hardcore raiders who would like raid mobs to be challenging for the quality of gear they want.  Quit confusing the two if you ever want to make a point.</P> <P>I dont know if your a hardcore raider, casual raider, or a non raider.  All I know is you want the best loot in game for minimal to no effort.  The only way you can say you arent is to say that MIS needs to be made harder or the loot is too good for the difficulty, thats the only way.  So wich is it, are you a little crybaby who wants everything handed to you or do you actually want the game to evolve into a nice product?  If you want the game to evolve and progress, good, I agree that the mobs in MIS are far too easy for the quality of loot they drop.  If you just want to cry and have everything given to you for logging in, you disgust me and I hope the developers realize how selfish you truly are.  Those are your options, choose where you fall.<BR></P>

[shamefu11]

To all the people who are angry because they cannot farm MMIS for set gear anymore because they suck:     The zone, was made, to be THE HARDEST INSTANCE IN ECHOES OF FAYDWER! kk thx? do you realise that if you cant kill the Mistress of the Veil, you do not belong in this zone? ok, thats a nice way of putting it, Do you realise if you cannot kill woushi, you are not intended to clear this zone? Yea, sure, you guys can go in and have your 'Evening Fun' get the same loot that the 1% hardcore raiders get outta EH, does this fix the problem? no. You guys are all mad because the end game content was handed to you, quite literally on a silver platter. The zone poses no challange now, to the guilds who were clearing it before, and it posed no challange before either. EoF was not intended for 'Easy casual raiding' Neither was the Fallen Dynasty, can you guys kill Chel'Drak? Matron? no didnt think so, if you guys think that because u can kill Tarinax now that he is 1 grpable, and he is orange, all orange mobs are supposed to be like that, you are sorely mistaken. I'd be willing to bet that the people who are complaining about MMIS being too hard, cant even clear FTH, or CWM. Raid zones are for Raiders, This expansion caters to raiders for 1 reason. SoE in all its wisdom didnt increase the lvl cap, so if u are at lvl 70, and didnt feel like rolling a fae, u get 4 options, 1 try to raid, and fail, 2 Join a raiding guild to raid, and perhaps succeed.  3 quit, or 4 make a fae or reroll some alt for the EoF content unavaliable to you at lvl 70. Dont come here, and try to negate the raiding community because you cant JUMP RIGHT IN and beat the stuff that  takes Hardcore raids  months to beat. god these casuals [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing about raiding is really irratating, if u want something to complain about, try Avatars not workin as intended, haha yea, guild 1 pulled an Avatar. thats something to complain about, Or how about the set gear being better then contested loot, how about  5 wizard hats droppin off treyloth in a row, how about a 15 second zone lag spike when an AE charm goes off, how about yer tank getting 1 shotted by mayong due to a lag spike on the de-lvl ability, why dont you complain about  something that matters. If you are gonna complain about the raid content, at least try and get a grasp on what the problems are. <div></div>

[Beghard]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Arvig wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Gungo wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> </blockquote>What do you consider hard core guilds? Because i can see maybe ~6 major guilds worldwide still left from the vanguard exodus still clearing MMIS fairly soon w the majority of normal to high end raids (~5 day raid guilds) eventually clearing it. And the casual/pickup (1-3 day) guilds having the most trouble. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Hardcore guilds?  The very vocal tiny minority that raid 6 or 7 days a week, that from what I understand actually call up members at 4AM or some such to let each other know that a contested is up.</p> <p>Again, that's not a flame...just a comment on how it seems like this very vocal minority seems to cause content to be adjusted..only to have it adjusted back a few weeks or months later.</p> <p>Anyway, I'm sure the accusations that I want everything on a silver platter will be made because I dare to say this will happen.  C'est la poop, feel free to do so.  It may shock those who make such claims, but no..commenting on such changes, and feeling that the hardcore raider is getting a bit too much attention doesn't mean I want things on easy mode.  It's simply a comment and an opinion.  Since I'm in a casual raid group, using the definition above, if the INTENT of the zone was to have it difficult or impossible for such a guild, at least currently, that's fine.</p> <p>I guess my point is SOE tends to shift zones around for a very tiny minority IMO..and possibly wreck havoc on their own intent for said zones.  I do wonder if many of the hardcore raid players, when they complain about either how difficult a zone is, or about the loot itimization, if they ever consider anything other then their own needs and interests.</p> <p>Anyway..again flame away if you'd like.  Just voicing opinion.  Probably not a popular one.</p> <p>But remember this..if you do flame me..doesn't mean you're right.  :p  Just means you're childish enough to flame me.</p> <hr></blockquote>[I cannot control my boul movements]</div><p>Message Edited by Beghard on <span class=date_text>02-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 PM</span>

[theriatis]

<P>Hi,</P> <P>i didn't know that MMIS should be in the progression AFTER EH.</P> <P>But, ok, now that i know it, there's one or two things to consider:</P> <P>1. Grinding 12h through tons of trash is not fun. Not even for the hardcore Raiders (educated guess), even more when i have to do it to progress. (Says: /me, who completed Claymore before "Easy-Tarinax").</P> <P>- Fact: The first guild to kill Wuoshi had to camp and to hold the Zone open for THREE DAYS. Sorry, i cannot afford that, who can ?</P> <P>2. Adding new features to the Mob is ok, V'Lekta was easy even by my standards. Adding LAG to every Mob is not what i consider worth beating.</P> <P>- Fact: Since LU31 we had a harder time killing Enynti and Tacticians Armor (but we managed), we skipped the Vampires because they lagged the whole Raid.</P> <P>And, now, a honest question:</P> <P>What do you consider more difficult, more tactical and more teamwork:</P> <P>- Having to coordinate all High-Damage Attacks, Debuffs, Verdict etc. to the exact same second to kill a mob, if you managed to bring it nearly down and stayed alive (D'Liszta Viswin / Cheroon Viswin).</P> <P>or</P> <P>- Having 4 Troub / Dirges in the Raid, one for every group who just have to press the "Group-AE Preventer" Button at the right time, to negate the End-AE from those two ?</P> <P>I thought, coordinating all of my raiders was more fun and challenging (teamwork is the word here) as just "bring the right class who has group AE preventers to the raid"... :-/</P> <P>Regards, theriatis.</P>

[Cynnigig]

<DIV>Well, there are positive things about these changes - short raid evenings. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mayong has always been unkillable on German servers, now the 2 orange vampires probably are as well. So, our raids look like this: go to EH, Freethinkers or MMIS and do the few named, which are possible with the lag (2-3 per zone), don't waste time and nerves trying the others and then try to beat our Lab speed record.</DIV>

[Triste-Lune]

the only issue i have is that in order to clear MMIS and by clear i mean kill Mayong you need to kill Wuoshi. The flaw in the design is that EH is just too big and cant be cleared by the above average raiders in a whole evening, you too often have to keep instance up overnight and with server reset it s often a no-go. on week end a lot of people (un)fortunately use their time for their familly. So when concidering the size of MMIS something just rings sound for me.if the progression was MMIS then EH and the loot between the 2 instance switch i would have absolutely no issue.

[Guy De Alsace]

<DIV>This happens every single time SOE release something vaguely new or make a change somewhere. I've been here a while and you can honestly set your watch by it. On first release we get complaints are too easy, a few updates later we get "a change" and then everyone else chimes in and says its now too hard while the 24/7 raiders complain that either the loot sucks or are appalled that the common trash have actually gained some of the loot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know it is possible to get "too good" at a game. To know the game so well that literally nothing is a challenge any more. I remember after a number of years playing Half Life online there were players who were <EM>so</EM> good you literally couldnt hit them and it stopped being fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Players in hardcore raid guilds have dealt with every trick SOE has thrown at them to such an extent that nothing now is really much of a challenge any more. Maybe if even the end zones arent much of a challenge its a sign that really its time to move on. To be honest I would be suprised if they moved to Vanguard, the game is just really slow and ungainly at the moment plus the character graphics are the fugliest I've ever seen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Triste-Lune wrote:the only issue i have is that in order to clear MMIS and by clear i mean kill Mayong you need to kill Wuoshi. The flaw in the design is that EH is just too big and cant be cleared by the above average raiders in a whole evening, you too often have to keep instance up overnight and with server reset it s often a no-go. on week end a lot of people (un)fortunately use their time for their familly. So when concidering the size of MMIS something just rings sound for me.if the progression was MMIS then EH and the loot between the 2 instance switch i would have absolutely no issue.<hr></blockquote>Mayong shouldn't be able to be killed by Above Average raiders either.

[CalypsoCGN]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr><font color="#ff0000">Do you realise if you cannot kill woushi, you are not intended to clear this zone? </font><hr size="2" width="100%">Do you realise that you need to keep the zone open for at least 2 days on it's current state (even the so called "hardcore guilds")???Do you realise that the majority of the raiding guilds does not have enough time to spend ~8 hours on one evening to raid (becuse they have families and jobs and a so called life which is WAY more important...)??? Do you realise that a LOT of semi-hardcore raiding guilds (which you would probably still call causual, because they can't afford to let EQ2 take too much of their real life), that can't afford to spend 2 - 3 days in EH in a row because of the above mentioned things, would be able to kill Woushi with some practice, if there would be another way to clear the zone (save points for every cleared level or what so ever)???Do you realise that skill and being able to kill mobs has NOTHING to do with being able to sit infront of your computer for endless hours???Basically you are saying that only those should get the good loot that are able to sacrifice their life??? Well...then getting the best loot has nothing to do with being skilled, but rather with having no social life outside of the game...<hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#ff0000">Or how about the set gear being better then contested loot, how about  5 wizard hats droppin off treyloth in a row, how about a 15 second zone lag spike when an AE charm goes off, how about yer tank getting 1 shotted by mayong due to a lag spike on the de-lvl ability, why dont you complain about  something that matters.</font><hr size="2" width="100%">Because those things you mentioned have literally nothing to do with encounters themself or with how long a raid-zone takes...what you mentioned is itemisation (and obviously your bad luck on the RNG) and lags with their results (i.e. one shotting the MT or wiping the raid).  But this is something ever raid has to cope with, regardless if you sit infront of you computer for 4 - 5 hours or for 2 - 3 days to clear a zone.<hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#ff0000">If you are gonna complain about the raid content, at least try and get a grasp on what the problems are.</font><hr size="2" width="100%">A lot of people did...but you still don't seem to understand or see it...a lot of people already said that EH takes way too long to clear in order to put it infront of MMIS in therms of progression. And that you need to kill Woushi to be able to kill Mayong literally locks all "semi-hardcore" guilds from that encouter, just because of the time aspect of EH. But I guess you overread that....And just as a side note: If the hardcore guilds wouldn't perma camp the big contestant mobs (i.e. Matron), you would have probably seen some of your so called "causual" guilds with a kill shot...just because skill does not equal with endless play time...</blockquote></div><p>Message Edited by CalypsoCGN on <span class=date_text>02-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:43 AM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Guy De Alsace wrote:<div></div><div>This happens every single time SOE release something vaguely new or make a change somewhere. I've been here a while and you can honestly set your watch by it. On first release we get complaints are too easy, a few updates later we get "a change" and then everyone else chimes in and says its now too hard while the 24/7 raiders complain that either the loot sucks or are appalled that the common trash have actually gained some of the loot.</div><div> </div><div>You know it is possible to get "too good" at a game. To know the game so well that literally nothing is a challenge any more. I remember after a number of years playing Half Life online there were players who were <em>so</em> good you literally couldnt hit them and it stopped being fun.</div><div> </div><div>Players in hardcore raid guilds have dealt with every trick SOE has thrown at them to such an extent that nothing now is really much of a challenge any more. Maybe if even the end zones arent much of a challenge its a sign that really its time to move on. To be honest I would be suprised if they moved to Vanguard, the game is just really slow and ungainly at the moment plus the character graphics are the fugliest I've ever seen.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Sounds like the devs should come up with new ideas to make encounters interesting/hard, rather than repeat the ones they continually have been using. Here's basically how all the Avatar encounters work, Spawn set of 4 adds or Spawn 1 "Special" add, Big AoE, Small AoE, Random Stun on Raid Member. That's it! Now of course all the little things are different, but the big picture is all the same, which means the developers aren't thinking up new/good tricks for people. A De-level is basically a huge de-buff on a tank, which people deal with in Halls of Seeing. It's not tricky at all.New Ideas need to be brought into raid encounters. Every encounter is just more of the same, I admit when Chel'Drak/Matron came out they were new to everybody, but the problem is that newness went away and was copy/pasted into EoF. Encounters in Freethinker's are Unique and interesting, same with Clockwork Menance. However, the majority of encounters in EH and MMIS are not unique, they are just more of the same with different tags.<p>Message Edited by Pinski on <span class=date_text>02-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:47 AM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>CalypsoCGN wrote:Do you realise that you need to keep the zone open for at least 2 days on it's current state (even the so called "hardcore guilds")???<hr></blockquote>Do you realize it doesn't take 2-days for every single guild to clear EH? Do you also realize that if you can't put in the time to clear EH(I don't really care why), then you don't deserve the loot?But seriously, why are you trying to turn this into a "Hardcore raiders are losers with no life" argument? Nobody is saying casual raiders are anything besides the fact that they don't have enough time to put into the zone, so they don't get the loot(which, imo makes sense!).

[CalypsoCGN]

That is true...I guess SoE has a different understanding of difficult...giving every mob in MMIS 5+ milion HP's makes the zone a yawn-fest rather then challenging....<div></div>

[CalypsoCGN]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:Do you realize it doesn't take 2-days for every single guild to clear EH? Do you also realize that if you can't put in the time to clear EH(I don't really care why), then you don't deserve the loot?But seriously, why are you trying to turn this into a "Hardcore raiders are losers with no life" argument? Nobody is saying casual raiders are anything besides the fact that they don't have enough time to put into the zone, so they don't get the loot(which, imo makes sense!).<hr></blockquote>Well...it only doesn't take 2 days, if you have 7 hours + to raid the zone, or am I wrong at this??? If the time is the factor that indicates if you deserve loot, then something is seriously wrong! Time has NOTHING to do with skill and being able to kill mobs (thus deserving their loot).What people are saying here is, that if you DONT have time to raid you don't deserve the loot...thats bollucks...If you are not able to kill stuff, THEN you don't deserve the loot!If there would be a different way to clear EH (some people in different posts mentionend save points which will open up new instances with cleared levels) then the skill of the raiders would determine, wheather they deserve loot or not (and in all honesty...this is the way it is meant to be).I don't want to harm anyone with bringing up the aspect of the high playtime, but this was just the counter argument for saying "if you cant kill woushi you dont deserve to be in the zone"...bollucks<div></div>

[Krontak]

<DIV>Hey, who would of guessed it. It's Monday and the people with endless playtime like the changes while people that play moderately don't like the changes.</DIV>

[Rezikai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krontak wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hey, who would of guessed it. It's Monday and the people with endless playtime like the changes while people that play moderately don't like the changes.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>lol.. yea.... </P> <P>oh and for the record I'm still saying MMIS is before.. EH in raid progression...</P> <P>speaking of which has anyone beaten/tested the MMC version of mayong?.......maybe hes like harder then anything else... hence the reason you need the wolfsbane/growthblooms.. but they work on the MMIS version as well... (X-Files music plays)</P>

[Roriondesexiest]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR>Sounds like the devs should come up with new ideas to make encounters interesting/hard, rather than repeat the ones they continually have been using. Here's basically how all the Avatar encounters work, Spawn set of 4 adds or Spawn 1 "Special" add, Big AoE, Small AoE, Random Stun on Raid Member. That's it! Now of course all the little things are different, but the big picture is all the same, which means the developers aren't thinking up new/good tricks for people. A De-level is basically a huge de-buff on a tank, which people deal with in Halls of Seeing. It's not tricky at all.<BR><BR>New Ideas need to be brought into raid encounters. Every encounter is just more of the same, I admit when Chel'Drak/Matron came out they were new to everybody, but the problem is that newness went away and was copy/pasted into EoF. <FONT color=#ff3300>Encounters in Freethinker's are Unique and interesting, same with Clockwork Menance</FONT>. However, the majority of encounters in EH and MMIS are not unique, they are just more of the same with different tags. <P>Message Edited by Pinski on <SPAN class=date_text>02-05-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:47 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree here, I do like those 2 zones.</P> <P>As I mentioned in the other long thread about MMIS is now this leaves those of us that just can't spend 8 hours in a zone with CMF (which probably should be made into a x2 raid since only one mob drops a chest), and Freethinkers.</P> <P>Honestly I don't know what the answer is, I hate when they dumb down the game so much that anyone can roll in and clear all the mobs i.e. DT, but it doesn't make sense to have a progression that maybe 1% of the guilds can complete.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Cynnigig]

<DIV>There are so many boring and repetitive things to do in the game and people seem to be proud of doing them, as can be seen by the titles they sport, be it killing +10k mobs, or doing nothing else than monk trials or grinding CTs. EH is the raiding equivalent of this sort of gaming. Per se there is nothing wrong with this, if people enjoy doing it. What I don't understand though, is why SOE put all the trouble into designing this zone, when they could just have made an instance with one mob, which has a few hundred milliion hitpoints. Amounts to more or less the same thing, those with enough time and inclination to fight such trash can still do so and be proud of their achievement, those with less time or better things to do will not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "problem" with such encounters as Chel'Drak, Clockwork Menace or Freethinkers, is that they are too short. This enables raiders with less time to keep practising, getting better, refining their tactics and eventually completing the zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wouldn't change EH, there is obviously a market for this sort of content. What I would change is to not make it essential to raid progression. And, as an added bonus to those, who put in the time and effort to complete this zone, make the loot more easily recognizable, so that everybody can see at a glance what sort of player is standing before them, hmm, maybe some cool colors, like pink and green?</DIV>

[theriatis]

<DIV>Hi,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>do you all know, that i would have no problem with introducing a Raid-Zone, catered especially for all the Hardcore Raiders out there ?</DIV> <DIV>A zone so hard, with Loot, 2 times as good as the best Loot currently in game ?</DIV> <DIV>A zone which would take 48 hours of continous play to clear ?</DIV> <DIV>Where i, as a semi-hardcore / above average Raider would never, ever set a foot, or even take a glimpse of an eye in it ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would have no problem with that and kudos to that guild who could take it down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUT.... (you know, there's always a "but")...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Problem always stays the same. Not enough Raidzones for the other Raiders.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Raidzone, catered around 1% of the Playerbase, be it Hardcore, semi hardcore, casuals, pickups, </DIV> <DIV>people who have time, people who rush through it, is ALWAYS a bad choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would NOT be a bad choice, if there were 99 other Raidzones for the other 99%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That and only that is my point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards, Theriatis. (Valor)</DIV>

[Lord Morain Daknar]

<P>Yes I am in a casual raiding guild. Yes we did kill everything in MIS except Mayong before the beefing up of nameds. And nope we can't do it anymore, at least not on our first try after the change. </P> <P> </P> <P>We raid usually two days a week, but in those two days we do 4 raidzones lasting from 2 to 4 hours each. In addition we often farm easier KoS zones on the side, so I'd say we still put in a lot of hours. </P> <P> </P> <P>When we killed 5/6 mobs in here the zone was my favourite one and a lot of fun, so I dislike the change. I'll admit we've never tried EH and that we're struggling with getting Treyloth in FTH past his last memwipe, but we're not complete [I cannot control my vocabulary]. At least we have managed to kill clockwork menace, so I don't think it's that out of line that we were able to slowly progress through MIS.</P> <P> </P> <P>It might be more in line with SOE's intention for the zone now but imho it was to severe a change. They should scale it back a bit again to maybe half way between what it was and what is is now. It was definately more than just the mobs health that was changed that's for sure.</P>

[Krontak]

I'm glad things are more difficult I guess.  Problem that I got with this is that I have to deal with EH boringness now to deal with this zone.  What a waste of content.  OK. So this big expansion released 1 zone for the guild that plays a moderate amount of time and 3 zones for the guilds that play quite a bit.  CWF doesn't even count so don't include that in the picture.  Either something changes shortly or I'm seriously thinking of going elsewhere.  KoS is already monotonous as hell as far as raid zones go.  EoF was supposed to be a breath of fresh air.  Unfortunatly, its turning out to not be so with the small amount of raid content it released.  Anyways, Hero's is on now so I'll have to continue this later...later.<BR>

[Aandien]

<P>For everyone who is scared by the posts about EH taking so long -- go try it.</P> <P>To get to Prince: You need to kill 13 trash mobs.  This shouldn't take more than about 15 minutes.</P> <P>To get to Mistress from there: Kill 8 more trash mobs.  10 minutes.</P> <P>To get to Saris from there:  You can just pull him at that point.</P> <P>To get to rumbler (so you can yell him off like everyone else does that goes past him): Kill 6 more trash mobs.</P> <P>To be able to pull Tender: Kill 15 trash mobs.</P> <P>All in all, it takes about 1 hour to kill every single trash mob on the first floor that you *have* to kill *IF* every single mini was up.  Since very rarely do you get all the minis up on the first floor -- you can typically clear the entire first floor in 1 hour.  That's after you learn how to pull and kill each mini.</P> <P>The second floor is pretty similiar to the first.</P> <P>Emerald Halls should take no more than about 3 hours once you are familiar with the zone, and are able to execute and kill all the named in a pull or two.</P> <P>It only takes so long now (even for the good guilds) because they wipe a bunch of times from the ae charm lag and have to keep trying until they get semi-lucky on the timing.</P> <P>You just have to learn where the trash mobs are that you have to kill, and then just avoid the rest.</P> <P>I will add though -- that the named in EH are still *MUCH* harder than those in MMIS.  MMIS mobs have little to no scripting.  EH mobs OTOH have much stricter raid requirements in order to beat them.</P><p>Message Edited by AncientElster on <span class=date_text>02-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:27 PM</span>

[Triste-Lune]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>Triste-Lune wrote:the only issue i have is that in order to clear MMIS and by clear i mean kill Mayong you need to kill Wuoshi. The flaw in the design is that EH is just too big and cant be cleared by the above average raiders in a whole evening, you too often have to keep instance up overnight and with server reset it s often a no-go. on week end a lot of people (un)fortunately use their time for their familly. So when concidering the size of MMIS something just rings sound for me.if the progression was MMIS then EH and the loot between the 2 instance switch i would have absolutely no issue.<hr></blockquote>Mayong shouldn't be able to be killed by Above Average raiders either.<hr></blockquote>I totally agree with you but you cant really take a shoot at him in order to test your skill and to figure out if you are an above average or a good guild if you dont spend a death boring time in EH... our best attempt we got mayong to 47% until my comp locked up on a delevel (i was MTing and we had already lost 2 other to linkdead on delevels).We lost all our wolfbane, we know the encounter but EH is just blocking us because of it s layout now <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.I know what you will say about EH and invest time in there to wich i tend to agree but i just hate EH and the size of the zone the trash and the random named/crash etc etc in that zone.