MIS dropping fabled set gear REVISITED - (Keep it real)

[KlutchSteele]

<DIV>The reason I brought this up in another thread is because I believe we need as a community to keep the developers very well aware of our discontent for this change. The previous thread that got locked spoke of the new fabled class gear dropping off the very easy named encounters in MIS and the communities overwhelming disconent for this. I want to keep this thread going (and hopefully keeping it constructful for the developers where this thread doesnt get locked) so hopefully the devs can see how much of a bad idea this is in the games current state. I agree fully that some guilds work very hard to be able to progress in the game and obtain the "end game content". By making this gear so easy to obtain for everyone makes the hardwork that other guilds do to get to the high end content not as rewarding . How rewarding is this gear if everyone can obtain it this easily?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Here is the link to the previous thread and some very vaild points made within </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=zones&message.id=28479" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=zones&message.id=28479</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This goes along the lines with making the trash mobs in Labs drop Relic. Devs, please dont make the same mistake you made with Relic. Give people the sense of accomplishment when they get their set gear or make the mobs that drop the gear MUCH MUCH more difficult. Its ridiculous for the first  named mob in MIS to drop fabled set gear shoulders. Shoulders dropping off of Tender in EH seemed on par.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Risk vs Reward. Sony set it , please adhere to it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By making the gear this easy to get now imho severely degrades the value of the game for higher end guilds. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Klutch Steele</DIV> <DIV>Templar of Ne Plus Ultra</DIV><p>Message Edited by KlutchSteele on <span class=date_text>01-07-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:23 PM</span>

[Jora']

<DIV>it doesnt drop from trash like the kos relic did, and back then many people were screaming (literally) for relic to be moved to named only. Well for the eof relic... now its on named.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as progression goes, I think its soe's intention that guilds that cant kill the harder stuff are to get the set fabled should have access to it in limited amounts, to keep players interested. JUST having set gear on the first few named most definitely not represents an avalanche of fabled set gear to guilds that arent in the top 2-3 on there server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it isn't clear yet i hope it is now.   Soe doesn't cater to JUST the hard core minority. If soe JUST supports the hardcore minority... there is no eq2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Progression is much, much better than it was in kos, heres some example of our first trips into raid zones in kos:</DIV> <DIV>Labs up to Vyemm first run</DIV> <DIV>Lyceum clear first run</DIV> <DIV>Hos up to the Warden first run</DIV> <DIV>Deathtoll up to Tarinax first  run</DIV> <DIV>The contested were all down within 2 months by the top end guild on our server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now for Eof, we are almost 2 months into it..... None of the Avatars or the pumpkin horseman have been defeated, and guilds are going to need ALOT of this set gear to beat them.  </DIV>

[KlutchSteele]

<DIV>So you are saying that Set Shoulders dropping off of the first named (let alone easier vampire named) in MIS is acceptable with the difficulty of the mobs in its current state? Other set gear, maybe gloves boots bracers (which I still wouldnt agree)...ok but still needed upgraded mobs even for these. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The mobs are ridiculously easy for dropping any set gear at all imho.</DIV><p>Message Edited by KlutchSteele on <span class=date_text>01-07-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:50 PM</span>

[Jora']

<P>simply put. yes.</P> <P>Remember the loot was initially suppose to be in the lewt tables, but was not. </P> <P>Basically, soe would not have got to such lengths and spent such resources to develop a unique item set for each class if it only catered for the elite 2-3 guilds per server. 4 named having a CHANCE to drop set lewt is FAR, FAR better than the kos days when almost every mob in most instances, including trash could drop relic gear.  This is somewhere in between.</P> <P>And how can progression possibly be up the creek when there are so many contested still standing, and not every boss has been killed in unbroken form?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Jora' on <span class=date_text>01-07-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:22 PM</span>

[Computer MAn]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jora' wrote: <div>Progression is much, much better than it was in kos, heres some example of our first trips into raid zones in kos:</div> <div>Labs up to Vyemm first run</div> <div>Lyceum clear first run</div> <div>Hos up to the Warden first run</div> <div>Deathtoll up to Tarinax first  run</div> <div>The contested were all down within 2 months by the top end guild on our server.</div> <hr></blockquote>Progression isn't much better if at all betterFTH - Cleared to Treyloth but us cleared by others first runEH- Tender down 2nd run in first by others (Gardener would of been dead long ago if it wasnt broken)Inner Sanctum - Cleared to Mayong first run inCMF- Cleared 2nd runThe EOF contested are largely believed to be impossible in their current form as with most of the other mobs that haven't died yet they are either too difficult or bugged with horrible lag to progress past them.</div>

[Jora']

<DIV>'Impossible' is very misleading.. because if one thinks a mob is unkillable... that mob is likely to be killed by another guild first.... Wasnt Mayong Mistmoore supposedly unkillable a few weeks bak? and he wasnt changed. The very best guilds will indeed make many of the mobs that havent been killed, killable with enough time and effort.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back on topic, i maintain progression is much better, because most guilds could clear to vyemm first week in, and nail the kos content. they didnt even have to be hardcore.   Now there is a very different situation.   Say, how many guilds on your server have cleared CMM Inner Sanctum, including Mayong, as well as FTH.   I'd wager that it aint nearly as many that were clearing lyceum there first run in..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Jora' on <span class=date_text>01-07-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:48 PM</span>

[pawnipt]

Tender needs to drop more then just shoulders if the EASY mobs in MIS are gonna continue dropping it too... i completely agree with this threads argument!<div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Jora' wrote:'Impossible' is very misleading.. because if one thinks a mob is unkillable... that mob is likely to be killed by another guild first.... Wasnt Mayong Mistmoore supposedly unkillable a few weeks bak? and he wasnt changed. The very best guilds will indeed make many of the mobs that havent been killed, killable with enough time and effort.<hr></blockquote>Nobody has ever said Mayong Mistmoore was unkillable, just that the lag was stupid from the de-level and created false difficulty in the mob.<blockquote><hr>Jora' wrote:Back on topic, i maintain progression is much better, because most guilds could clear to vyemm first week in, and nail the kos content. they didnt even have to be hardcore. Now there is a very different situation. Say, how many guilds on your server have cleared CMM Inner Sanctum, including Mayong, as well as FTH. I'd wager that it aint nearly as many that were clearing lyceum there first run in..<hr></blockquote>Freethinkers was cleared first run by people, Clockwork Menance, also cleared first run. Mayong was all that wasn't killed first run by anybody doing Inner Sanctum. Once we finally tried it, it died without any issues, in fact it's the same fight as the Matron(except the de-level creates a lag spike), which was killed MONTHS ago which shows that the expansion has no progerssion since the mob is the same difficulty as a fight that was killed months ago. Then we come to Emerald Halls. It took a while to figure out what trash needs to be cleared, and what doesn't. Then we also run into the whole lag-spike situation with dispelling mobs(a rare named on the 2nd floor has not 1, but 2! mobs in the encounter that AE Dispels), and then we have the charm ending issue with the Garderner(which btw, losing out on 10s of combat once a minute is not cool, this isn't the Charm, this is when the Charm ENDS that the 10s lag happens, and the charm goes off once every minute for 15s, so you have 10s of doing nothing, BUT recast timers still count down so you could end up with a Furious Storm happening once this lag ends.)There is no different situation between now and KoS. It is entirely too trivial to gear up, there are only 2 slots that require a lot of work to fill(BP and Legs). 1 of which was supposed to be the END of all instance progression, yet has already been beaten, because it is the same difficulty as a mob that was put in the game months ago. Do you not understand? Progression in this game is non-existant if they're just going to add a mob that is 90% the same as a mob that was in game already.Next, lets look at Emerald Halls alone. With how much trash you have to clear to get to named in comparison to Inner Sanctum you end up with less loot with more timer invested in 1 zone. Hows that make Progression work at all? The Tender is harder than anything in Inner Sanctum(except Mayong), but it drops the same quality loot? Hows that work at all? You know that Yellow Vampire in Inner Sanctum? That's a 35 second fight. 35 seconds on a named mob means it should not drop loot that is as good as a harder named in another zone. This is not progression, this is a total joke.<p>Message Edited by Pinski on <span class=date_text>01-07-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:18 PM</span>

[Jora']

<DIV> <DIV>How can progression be non existant? Progression is only 'perceived' as non existant because you are in one of those elite, top guilds that seeks to be challenged by high level content, however have beaten a good proportion of it. However, a far larger game population (note FAR larger) havent yet completed much of the content (beyond the 2-3 guilds that are clearing the new eof content), therefore there is a sense of the progression for these guilds.  There are many many guilds still working there way thru the instance content, which is far more than I can say that the plethora of guilds that were already farming vyemm and labs 2 months after the kos expansion hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats why there is progression.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there was no progression, again i ask why are the avatars and the pumpkin horseman are still up? If there is lag, that is another issue that needs to be addressed, but lag and progression are 2 COMPLETELY different things, although having the lag may limit the amount you can progress in a given time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those numerous contested you see that are 'impossible' are a good indication for things to come (aka progression!). at this time iin kos, all contesteds had been killed. Theres a big, big difference, because you have plenty of content to work toward.   Can you honestly say that after 2 months of KoS you still had content to work on that was challenging? or even 4?   </DIV></DIV>

[Nevar]

<DIV>Ok Jora let me explain why there is no progression. Inner sanctum is suppost to be the hardest raid zone. It is in fact along the lines of clockwork ( which is a complete joke ) and can be killed by anyone. Guess what? it also has the best loot. While emerald Halls which is way harder has considerably worse loot. And what really bothers me is the fact that EH is only hard because of the 10s lag spikes that the Gardner throws out. So Easy zone that takes no time = Best loot. While Hard and REALLY buggy zone has crap loot. Does this make since to you?</DIV>

[shamefu11]

Freethinkers was cleared first run by people, Clockwork Menance, also cleared first run. Mayong was all that wasn't killed first run by anybody doing Inner Sanctum. Once we finally tried it, it died without any issues, in fact it's the same fight as the Matron(except the de-level creates a lag spike), which was killed MONTHS ago which shows that the expansion has no progerssion since the mob is the same difficulty as a fight that was killed months ago. Then we come to Emerald Halls. It took a while to figure out what trash needs to be cleared, and what doesn't. Then we also run into the whole lag-spike situation with dispelling mobs(a rare named on the 2nd floor has not 1, but 2! mobs in the encounter that AE Dispels), and then we have the charm ending issue with the Garderner(which btw, losing out on 10s of combat once a minute is not cool, this isn't the Charm, this is when the Charm ENDS that the 10s lag happens, and the charm goes off once every minute for 15s, so you have 10s of doing nothing, BUT recast timers still count down so you could end up with a Furious Storm happening once this lag ends.) There is no different situation between now and KoS. It is entirely too trivial to gear up, there are only 2 slots that require a lot of work to fill(BP and Legs). 1 of which was supposed to be the END of all instance progression, yet has already been beaten, because it is the same difficulty as a mob that was put in the game months ago. Do you not understand? Progression in this game is non-existant if they're just going to add a mob that is 90% the same as a mob that was in game already. Next, lets look at Emerald Halls alone. With how much trash you have to clear to get to named in comparison to Inner Sanctum you end up with less loot with more timer invested in 1 zone. Hows that make Progression work at all? The Tender is harder than anything in Inner Sanctum(except Mayong), but it drops the same quality loot? Hows that work at all? You know that Yellow Vampire in Inner Sanctum? That's a 35 second fight. 35 seconds on a named mob means it should not drop loot that is as good as a harder named in another zone. This is not progression, this is a total joke. I couldnt Agree more, We went Into FTH the first raid of the Xpac, and Killed it, Malkonis died, first time we were like omg did we just world first FTH? we were amazingly high that night, We finally killed The Tender and The Centaur on the 2nd floor tonight, and we were extatic, sure no WW1st, but a pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] nice achievement... Then we see some total crap guild linking things in 60-69 and omg its set gear, this is a guild that cannot even kill treyloth, the Misress of the veil.... anything, So, Please, tell me how the Gargoyle in IS, can drop Tender loot, Tell me how. Please explain to me. How can a mob that i wanna say under 10, (i could be wrong) guilds have killed IN THE WORLD, drops the same chests as a mob pickup raids are killin in IS. please explain to me how that makes sense, and i will just , idk... worship you. Another thing, Matron loot, = current teir loot, The mage things off there, omg they got abilities on them, procs, INT MEANS NOTHING TO A MAGE..... This is why Gown of Glory is Irreplacable, ABILITIES... EoF gear can have 35 int on a pair of boots... i'll take 1 with 30 int and a 2% crit chance in a heartbeat... u can gimme a Mage hat with BoE X on it, Ill take the BOTD ANYDAY!!!, i can give me a belt with 900 to 4 resist and 29 int on it, i'll take the BCG over it in a heart beat, sure the Mage pants in IS, well my MO pants got the same power proc, but a deagro to go along with it... people need help. SoE fix yer game, before the xpac is cleared before u can ever put out an epic line... <div></div>

[shamefu11]

sorry for the double post, but Mayong was due to lag like Pinksi said, i guarantee u as soon as there is no more lag after the charm, guilds will have her down faster then Jenna Jameson... <div></div>

[Anjin]

<DIV>I'm amazed at how juvenile some of the members of these hardcore raiding guilds are.  Honestly, the progession might not be what you expected, but don't get so wound up about loot tables when they don't affect you in a detrimental way.  If you feel so strongly about it and are basically willing to back up your bb opinions, I suggest you transmute/vendor the class loot that drops from all non boss names....................</DIV> <P>AFAIK SOE are trying to fix the loot tables, so unless you have a player on test that can confirm whether the issues have been fixed, why not just wait until it comes out on live before whining.</P><p>Message Edited by Herbster on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:41 AM</span>

[shamefu11]

are you serious? I hope you arent serious... you know what we got off the Tender and Bloomseeker? we got 1 pair of boots, and 1 shoulder, we can now get this from Mistmoore, so, why spend HOURS literal hours clearing to this mob, to get the same loot we can get from a 2 grped mob in IS? also. Do you think said uber raid guilds should get the same loot as pickupraids? I dont. <div></div>

[Anjin]

<P>Wait until the loot table patch has gone onto live before giving me your sob story.</P> <P>You mentioned pickup raids.  Although I have never been in a pickup raid, if they kill that same named as a 'uber raid guild' then IMO they actually deserve better loot as you can bet it took more effort.</P>

[Mermidon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Herbster wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm amazed at how juvenile some of the members of these hardcore raiding guilds are.  Honestly, the progession might not be what you expected, but don't get so wound up about loot tables when they don't affect you in a detrimental way.  If you feel so strongly about it and are basically willing to back up your bb opinions, I suggest you transmute/vendor the class loot that drops from all non boss names....................</DIV> <P>AFAIK SOE are trying to fix the loot tables, so unless you have a player on test that can confirm whether the issues have been fixed, why not just wait until it comes out on live before whining.</P> <P>Message Edited by Herbster on <SPAN class=date_text>01-08-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:41 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The progression is non exsistant, period.  Either you can plainly see this or you simply have not seen enough of the raid scene for this expansion to know what your talking about.</P> <P>Mobs that are 1 and 2 groupable, that take 10 minutes to get to, are now dropping gear as good or better than mobs that takes a full raid an hour or longer of clearing to get to, let alone kill.  That is not progression, that is just downright poor implementation.</P> <P>One of the named mobs in Inner Sanctum that is now dropping fabled set gear my guild killed in 34 seconds, with 19 people.  Yes, 34 seconds and only 19 people.  Tell me why a mob that practicaly fell over and dropped a chest because someone sneezed should be dropping end game loot?  It is relic all over again.  You kill weak pathetic mobs that any pickup raid can kill, you get top of the line fabled set gear that will last you until next expansion and is good enough to kill any mob in the game that is killable.  The only difference is instead of farming trash daily you kill some mobs that are EASIER than the trash in the zone to get it, but your guarenteed drops instead of hoping for one from trash.</P> <P>This is the worst change SOE could have made in regards to progression.  Im sorry but anyone argueing against it is clearly doing so for selfish reasons and selfish reasons only.  Anyone who truly cares about the raiding scene in this game knows this needs to be corrected immediately although I fear it is already too late.  If that is the case, thank you for ruining another expansion SOE.  </P> <P>Please, tell me why raiders should continue playing your game when it is obvious that you have no intentions of providing a proper risk/effort vs reward enviroment for all their time and hardwork?  Should we all just count our losses and move on?  That is most definitly the message you are sending out.  If that is not the case, we need to be told what is instore for our demographic because everyone I talk to says they feel they are being shown the door.</P>

[Killerbee3000]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Mermidon wrote:*snipped*<p>The progression is non exsistant, period.  Either you can plainly see this or you simply have not seen enough of the raid scene for this expansion to know what your talking about.</p>*snipped*<hr></blockquote>you dont have to be in a top shot raiding guild to want a clear progression.....i'm in a rading guild... we havent beaten mobs like matron or mayong yet buti want a clear progression too, simply to have something to look forward too.....</div><p>Message Edited by Killerbee3000 on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:30 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<P>so people complain that sets arnt dropping and now complain that they do ? can soe do ANYTHING right in your eyes ?</P> <P>Question Should NAMED drop set items - Yes ofc they should </P> <P>Reason - Trash Dropped relic nameds have ALWAYS droped loot so whats the difference ? you can raid MiS 100 times and Still not get the set piece you need so why are you complaining ?? omg people </P>

[Anjin]

<P>Have you killed every EoF instance and contested mob?  I know the answer, but I just wanted to highlight that until you do, you can't really make a sweeping statement about progression.  There IS progression, but maybe not the progression that you want.</P> <P>To answer a few point in your post.  This is not relic all over again - below are a couple of points highlighting the difference between relic and current drops:</P> <UL> <LI>Relic dropped off trash mobs</LI> <LI>Relics could be obtained without a success instance lockout</LI> <LI>Relics could be obtained easily from trash with less that 2 groups - probably 1 group if suitably kitted out & right group makeup.</LI></UL> <P>Now to me, this seems like a MAJOR difference between the current drops and relic, don't you?</P> <P>You mention this example in IS.  Now this is not the case with 3 other named in IS or tbh in any other EoF instance - so making a carte blanche statement about progression using a single instance is pretty poor.</P> <P>If you raiders with a similar attitude to you that haven't taken out all EoF epic content and complain about progression really feel so bad and what to leave the game, go ahead.  You aren't aware of the loot tables of the avatars of the horseman, yet you're whining about loot.  I know that the only thing that makes the professional sets (for me anyway) of any use in comparison to other drops is having all 7 items, apart from certain slots, a lot are worse than available in KoS/EoF already.  An example being a monk - for us mitigation is vital now due to the diminishing returns factor - the monk specific armor has crappy mitigation.</P>

[s]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Herbster wrote:<BR> <P><snapped></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This isn't about comparing to relic, nor is it about EoF itemization or the complete progression in EoF. We haven't seen loot of said mobs that have not yet been killed so we can not say anything about that. Other than that it should be better than the stuff we've seen so far since well, the mobs are more difficult > better loot. Simple.</P> <P>What this is about that the current progression was just fine the way it was apart from some set gear aparently not dropping. Now, had they added the missing gear to the loottables of Tender, Treyloth, Malkonis, TA etc. all would've been fine. The more difficult mobs get the better gear while Shredder, CMF, some EH mobs, [Removed for Content] IS mobs drop decent gear but not as good as set gear. Hey, progression!</P> <P>The way it is now is that the [Removed for Content] mobs in IS drop loot that does not reflect their difficulty. That is the only thing, and tbh I think this is a very very bad thing and is in need of a fix TODAY rather than tomorrow or next week.<BR></P>

[TwistedFaith]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> shamefu11 wrote:<BR>I couldnt Agree more, We went Into FTH the first raid of the Xpac, and Killed it, Malkonis died, first time we were like omg did we just world first FTH? we were amazingly high that night, We finally killed The Tender and The Centaur on the 2nd floor tonight, and we were extatic, sure no WW1st, but a pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] nice achievement... <FONT color=#cc0000>Then we see some total crap guild linking things in 60-69 and omg its set gear</FONT>, this is a guild that cannot even kill treyloth, the Misress of the veil.... anything, So, Please, tell me how the Gargoyle in IS, can drop Tender loot, Tell me how. Please explain to me.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No real opinion on the progression debate, though I would say I think SoE are trying to cater to a wide range of people and most of you guys forget that. Like it or not hardcore raid guilds are a TINY percentage of their playerbase, and whilst SoE should reward those guilds who kill the highend mobs, they have to balance it out by offering challenges to smaller or more casual guilds who will never get a world wide first or clear a complete highend zone.</P> <P>The text I highlighted in the quoted post just annoyed me, hate that attitude, I swear some people need to take a breath and realise your playing a game here and not competing in the Olympics or anything :smileyhappy:</P>

[Anjin]

<P>TBH - we don't know the loot table content yet so we don't know the progression path SOE is mapping.  Maybe the easy named only drop loot for a certain slot, maybe for only certain professions, who knows.  All I can say is that we shouldn't complain about something we don't know the facts about yet.</P> <P>If you could fill say 3+ slots from the easy named that would be a problem, but I honestly don't think it's worth getting worked up if you can only fill a slot or 2 from the easy stuff - hardly gonna shake the world, is it?</P><p>Message Edited by Herbster on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:15 PM</span>

[s]

<P>Ok let me stress this again. Mobs should roughly drop loot which quality can be arranged like this:</P> <P>Easiest named epic mobs: Loot better than best instance gear, easily obtainable if you manage to get 24 people together. Think Shredder, IS named, CMF, First bits of labs (ok most of labs really), lyceum, HoS, AoA, ToS + Harla Dar etc. etc.</P> <P>Next tier of epic mobs: Better loot than the easiest. Harder mobs in labs, early mobs in DT, MoA maybe, Othysis Muravian in FTH, some EH named mobs etc. Vyemm, Villucidae, some HoS mobs and the list goes on.</P> <P>More difficult mobs: Even better loot, this is class gear mostly. Treyloth, Tender, Prince in EH, Malkonis, TA (doubtfull but ah well). Other mobs like what tarinax used to be pre-nerf, cruor, KoS contested etc. etc.</P> <P>Extreme difficulty mobs for the uber guilds: Best loot possible, pumpkinheaded, avatars and possibly Mayong and Wuoshi but they can go under category 3 too.</P> <P> </P> <P>That is how I think it should be. Something to work towards at any given time for any casual and semi-hardcore raiding guild, just a few mobs that drop the very very best gear for us 'uber-raiders' to go after. We're all happy if it would work like this. Right now though, it doesn't with MMIS mobs dropping loot that quality-wise is waaaaaay above the difficulty of the mob. This is wrong and is in need of a fix asap. before it gets (ab)used too much. It isn't too late yet now, it will be next month when half the server runs around with half their set gear. Ok that is slightly over the top but you get the point.</P>

[Lol]

<P>I personally don't see why people are crying. It's already been done. We may not like it but thats that. I for one am sure your not gonna run threw IS one time nad get set pieces for your class. Remember 24 classes and when you got to clear all the way to tender of the seedlings and to get 1 piece of set gear it does suck. They are just tryin to give out more b/c they think it's rigt. Maybe since IS mobs drop fabled sest pieces maybe they should put some UBA [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]in loot in tenders spot? You never know. The change went live on the 5th. Have you killed tender since then? Do you know the loot table for him yet after patch? Think about these things 1st b4 complaining. We may not like it but WE PAY and it is THIER GAME so if you don't like it then go play Vanguard or something else.</P>

[Flor]

WoW = 7 mil playersEQ2 = 250k??? (maybe )I doubt SoE will give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about what the top raiding guilds thing. In order to keep as many players as they can they make the game fun for more ppl than the hardcore guilds. If that means making some of the good loot available to the more casual guild, well then they will do that.You ppl need to shut up about more ppl getting class loot.What the hell are you even afraid of? Do you honestly think the loot will matter that much for a casual guild? Do you think they will start killing the harder mobs just couse they got a few pieces of class gear? There are guilds that farmed Labs for months, everyone has a full set of relic and they STILL didnt kill Tarinax yet.Casual guilds will always be casual. Besides, most of the new content is based on a perfect strat and a perfect execution of that strat. So pls stop crying like the kids that you are and just see about your game and not worry this much about other ppl fun.God i hate kids.

[Guy De Alsace]

<P>We always seem to get raiders wailing about easy mobs dropping reasonable gear as soon as any expansion comes out - they get first dibs, wail about it then zone gets upped in difficulty so everyone else coming behind them gets a harder time or nerfed loot.</P> <P>Why cant you just enjoy the game?? Yeesh...</P>

[arieste]

<P>I don't which "community" is in "discontent" about this change, but I am certainly not part of it.</P> <P>I think this change the best loot / progression decision that SOE has ever made in regards to this game.</P> <P>IF you were to clear IS every week (which only a few guilds WW can do) and IF (which is about 0 chance of happening) you were to get a full set of class gear for one class on every trip, it would still take you more than 6 months of raiding to get every person in the guild a full set.  Which would leave maybe 5 guilds WW with this stuff.  I don't think the idea behind making class sets is to not allow people to get them.</P> <P>My guild so far has had 9 pieces of class-specific loot drop, out of those 9 pieces, 7 were for classes not present at the raid.  At this rate, it will be 2010 before we get the whole guild into a full set of this stuff.</P> <P>Furthermore, the BPs still only drop off Mayong afaik, so no matter how many pieces the "non l337" guilds get off the "weak" named, they will never EVER get full sets, since they can't beat mayong.</P> <P>Furthermore, there are about 12 contested and another whole raidzone (upcoming) that will (or should) be dropping upgrades to this stuff.  For how many classes was KoS relic "the final l33t piece of gear" in KoS?  You picked it up, then you upgraded with better instanced stuff from the harder zones, and then with better contested stuff.</P> <P>As far as progression goes, we are 2 months into the expansion.  Two out of three raid zones have been cleared.  No contested have been killed.  No one WW has a full set of class gear (unless I missed something on the weekend).  Sounds perfectly "progressive" to me. </P> <P>If you think these sets are too easy, please give me your best guess at answer to this question:   What % of EQ2 population will have a complete set of EoF fabled class gear by the end of February?</P> <P> </P>

[Krontak]

I think its a great idea they upp'ed the set armor dropping from other loot tables.  It will give people half a chance at reaching a realistic goal where as what existed before would have taken quite a while, even for the higher end guilds.  They might have gone a bit overboard with how often it was dropping but, I wouldn't suggest taking it out of the loot tables 100% either.

[MeridianR]

Am I against this change, yes.  I don't think a named like Tender should drop 1 piece of set gear (normally shoulders), yet the easy Vamps in MIS drop the same amount....but with that being said, people DID ask for named to start dropping relic in KoS (instead of trash, even though most of those people used broken timers to farm trash for said relic) , and now that is what is happening.  I agree that the named should be made harder, but asking for them to be taken away is just totally contradicting what everyone said in KoS land.<div></div>

[Maelakai]

<div></div>The problem now is, why even go into Emerald Halls?  The nameds in there have horrible drops, and they are much more difficult than any of the nameds (save Mayong) in MMIS.We cleared MMIS in a little under 1.5h (including Mayong), to get to the Gardener in EH takes us roughly 3h (depending on which nameds are up etc).  In that 3 hour run we got NO set pieces what so ever, and in fact we transmuted the drop off tender (some horrible mage pants), we got a Master of Watcher and a pair of scout boots (non set) off Sariah, a bow off Sarnak and the bolt of energy cloak off Mistress.Our 1.5h MMIS run got us Illusionist forearms, Swash arms, Ranger BP, Mystic BP, an awesome hate proc earring and some other random decent loot that was distributed, not transmuted.So, I ask again... what is the point of even going into EH now?  Why burn 3+ hours clearing trash to kill nameds that by and large drop items that aren't even desireable?  Progression should be pushing us to go there to improve our toons, as it stands this is most definately NOT the case.DraydinDefiler.<a href="http://chaoticlegion.guildportal.com" target="_blank">Chaotic Legion</a>.Kithicor<div></div><p>Message Edited by Maelakai on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:09 AM</span>

[Rampagious]

<DIV>I think my favorite part of MIS is...it takes more skill and coordination as a guild to kill any mob in FTH, than anything minus mayong in MIS.  MIS is the biggest joke of a zone, its a bigger joke than labs was in the beginning of KoS, and its not even a first teir zone!</DIV>

[Computer MAn]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Maelakai wrote:<div></div>The problem now is, why even go into Emerald Halls?  The nameds in there have horrible drops, and they are much more difficult than any of the nameds (save Mayong) in MMIS.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree 100% we went into EH this weekend and spent 36 HOURS in there. Yes we camped overnight in the zone to keep our instance open (I believe SD spent 3 days in here). In that time we got some gloves off the wolf that our Brigand took for backup, bracers off Mistress of the Veil that went to an app. A [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty robe off the tender that went to our Coercer just for the name (Frilly Rainbow Robe), Ranger boots off Sariah and only to get the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing Unicorn who we proceeded to wipe 60 times to only to wipe to at 10% because we had a less than ideal healer force (Why does a non floor boss (who is also harder than the gardener) that you have to 3 tank have 5 million HP's I don't know). Why should EH drop such awful loot when we can spend 2 hours in IS and get better loot and more of it.</div><p>Message Edited by Computer MAn on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:28 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV>The premise of this complaint is misplaced. The problem is not that MIS namd shouldn't drop set gear. It should. It was a bug mistake whatever that certain set peices were not dropping AT ALL. Many of he ranger peices were never in any loot table. The mobs in MIS were always ment to drop those pieces. It was not ment to drop 4 zone wide pieces OVER AND OVER.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem with this zone is the mobs are either to easy or working incorrectly. And from i have been told the named in MMIS are just not working 100%. Fix the named in MMIS to be harder. Don't ask for named in these zones to drop the same crappy 4 fabled items. Seriously does anyone want more staff of kindreds. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And seriously you can't really say EH is only hard because of lag bugs. While the game does need to adjust the lag issues overall and specifically the charm/de-level lag that is not the sole reason EH is hard. People covienitently forget mobs like the Rumbler which are hard because of the trisected split Aoe. Could it be killed possibly its hard to tell because to many guilds are yelling it off so they can "progress" quicker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is a clear progression SoE intended for EoF. Is that progression working as intended. Prolly not. What do they need to do? First make sure everything is working as intended. Which should have been done in beta and was pretty much working minus the entire LAG issue (and mobs dropping thier intended loot. Which really did not get added till the end of beta anyway) This means mobs are working correctly dropping thier loot, no lag bugs etc. Then they need to tune encounters. (preferably they should tune down encounters but in MMIS either fix them or tune them up).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>CMF-no class pieces<BR>FTH- first mob no class peices, next 3 class pieces<BR>EH-random named each w chance at class piece, end boss legs<BR>MMIS- named each w class peices, end boss chest, end boss should require harvestable from EH 3rd floor to kill <BR>Pumkinhead- who knows what loot<BR>Avatars- requires items from deep in MMIS/EH instances to kill. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just for reference this is still T7. Matron is still a T7 contested. Mayong is a T7 instanced mob. All named drop fabled w certain peices tied to certain mobs. And the endbosses mobs dropping the most desireable peices chest, legs. There is a clear progression much better then KoS had regarding gear. </DIV>

[arieste]

<P>Why go to EH you ask?  Well, I've seen a lot of "hardcore" raiders complain that IS is too easy for them and very little challenge.  There is a good enough reason to go to EH then. </P> <P>As far as the loot in EH not being worth it, I haven't seen much of it, but if you are right, then that is a problem with EH, not with IS.   Why must it always be the nerf approach to everything?  EH loot is not good, so let's nerf IS loot? huh?  Why not just improve the drops in EH to be on par with difficulty.  Or scale down the difficulty so it takes 2 hours instead of 36 (not my number). </P> <P>If EH loot sucks, EH loot needs fixing.  </P> <P>Look at KoS  example, Labs is very easy.  Almost every guild that raids has now cleaered Labs up to Vyemm. But I bet very few of these guilds that have geared up in labs have killed Chel'Drak (which is  the  hardest instanced encounter  pre-EoF).     </P> <P>So apply same concept in EoF.  IS is the new labs.  Everyone will get geared up and keep  happily raiding to get further geared up.   But the majority of the guilds that clear IS up to Mayong, willl still not kill the toughest encounters in EoF.</P> <P>If folks stopped waving their huge e-flags of uberness long enough to actually look at the EoF Armor sets, they  would realize  that this junk won't suddenly allow pickup raids to take out Avatars any more than relic helped pickup raids kill Matron.  </P> <P>Realize also, that if more people get something out of raiding, the more people will raid and the more future content will be catered to raiders.  There are absolutely no possible detrimental ramifications to this chang.  If you think EH loot sucks and isn't worth the time invesment, that is an issue with EH.  Just because nerfing is the easiest way to balance, doesn't mean it's the best.</P>

[Pins]

Easy mobs shouldn't drop better gear than harder mobs. That is progression. That is not what is in game right now. It's not about them dropping the loot, it's about them being easier than other mobs and taking less time to get to than the harder mobs who drop crappier loot. This change broke progression, it needs to be fixed. It doesn't matter how it is fixed, as long as it is fixed. Until something changes again, progression was destroyed by this change.Emerald Halls is pointless to enter because it is a waste of time in comparison to Inner Sanctum. Why zone into EH, when you can zone into IS and get more loot for a LOT less time. It's a 2 hour clear in IS total time from zone-in to zone-out including Mayong which can give you up to 7 set pieces now, whereas you go into EH it's a 4 hour clear time from zone-in, till you can even PULL the Garderner, assuming you don't get the Unicorn, who will add even more time till you can even pull the Garderner(if of course you can beat it, and this goes back to the fact that random mobs are HARDER than the floor-boss, which they should change, make the easier mobs into the random mob, and make the harder mobs into the floor-boss, for all I care if they made the Rumbler the floor boss, good. If they made the Unicorn the floor boss for the 2nd floor, sweet!, but these 2 mobs make progression look even more grim because why is a mob harder than the boss. The boss is supposed to be the hardest mob, not a mini-boss.).Change something, remove all the loot people got, something needs to happen. Either change the loot tables back, or make the mobs 5-10x as more difficult. As of right now, you can 3-group just about anything in IS, except Mayong. The difficulty needs to be increased, now, not later. Or the loot needs to be removed now, not later.

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>arieste wrote:IS is the new labs.<hr></blockquote>IS is not supposed to be the new labs. It is Mayong's Inner Sanctum for crying out loud. Mayong was a god. Why the hell should his Inner Sanctum be a bunch of trash that is a total joke to kill? It shouldn't be. Freethinkers+Clockwork is supposed to be the new labs. Inner Sanctum is supposed to be Deathtoll, with EH as being the in-between(Which is due to the fact that you are supposed to get Tunarian Wolfsbane from the big flower in EH, which you are allowed to collect after killing Wuoshi). That is the problem with the way you're thinking, IS isn't supposed to be a starter raid zone, it is supposed to be the END. It was supposed to be the DMP of instances in EoF, it is not.

[arieste]

<P>What % of guilds that raid T7 content do you think can clear IS with 3 groups?  Because it seems to me that when you say "you can clear IS with 3 groups", what you really mean is "We can clear IS with 3 groups and you suck."</P> <P>I agree 100% that EH needs looking at btw.  Both lootwise and mobwise.  We haven't even gone to EH because we simply don't have the time to invest in going there.  </P>

[MeridianR]

Actually I think any pickup raid could easily kill the named other then Mayong in IS.<div></div>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>Actually I think any pickup raid could easily kill the named other then Mayong in IS.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>pickup raids can kill tarinax too so whats the difference its all T7 ?</P> <P> </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>Actually I think any pickup raid could easily kill the named other then Mayong in IS.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>pickup raids can kill tarinax too so whats the difference its all T7 ?</P> <P> </P><hr></blockquote> EoF is supposed to be more difficult than KoS. Just because something is the same Tier, doesn't mean it's going to be the same difficulty level. Clockwork Menace was supposed to be the mob that was on-par with difficulty in KoS, and everything in EoF was supposed to scale up from there. However, looking back on it now, it did not scale up as well as things could/should have, and instead we ended up with mostly KoS difficulty with some minor TFD difficulty, and nothing inside of instances were above and beyond there(except of course for those mobs with the lag ability, which I'm betting is left in to keep people from beating everything and say there's still content left to beat that is instanced!).

[Gungo]

<P>The point is not these mobs should nto drop set gear. It has always been the Named in IS are entirely to easy. This has been said since it was released.  Yes mobs in IS are easier then FTH mobs. Fix the named in IS and fix the charm/delevel lag. Then they can go about adjusting the random encounters of EH either making them harder or easier depending on where they want them in progression. Once again the loot is not the issue its the difficulty or really lack of difficulty of named in IS. </P> <P>Edit: while its not a feature of eq2 YET, they should make EH persistant and remove the whole random named thing. This way guilds can progress through the zone each week clearing through the zone. Each named must be killed to progress to the next level. Hence no one mob is the level boss. It would also make this raid longer as guilds can clear it over several days. </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:The point is not these mobs should nto drop set gear. It has always been the Named in IS are entirely to easy. This has been said since it was released.  Yes mobs in IS are easier then FTH mobs. Fix the named in IS and fix the charm/delevel lag. Then they can go about adjusting the random encounters of EH either making them harder or easier depending on where they want them in progression. Once again the loot is not the issue its the difficulty or really lack of difficulty of named in IS.<hr></blockquote>Once again you fail to realize that if the mobs are too easy, the loot is the easy. Difficulty of mobs and itemization of said mobs go hand in hand. If 1 is imbalanced 1-way, you can fix it in 2 different ways, 1 way is making the mobs harder, the other way is leaving the mobs with a joke of a loot table. Before the patch it was balanced, the mobs were a total joke, and the loot was applicable because the mobs were a total joke. I think somebody [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up, and put in 1 half of the patch without looking at the whole picture which shows a breakdown of communication from the developers, which means we end up with crap because people aren't doing their jobs properly, or it's from somebody who is leaving wanting to screw everything up so they put the patch in without waiting for the other half to be a total [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and say whatever, since they're leaving.

[Eileithia]

<P>I couldn't agree more with Pantheya. MMIS is easy.. yes.. the first 3 named in there are a complete Joke. Do I think they should drop set gear? Yes.. they should. As for getting the shaft in EH and all the complaining about the mobs in EH dropping the same gear as the easy joke mobs in MMIS, then add better loot to EH.. </P> <P>Set gear I don't think is intended to be the end-all be-all of EoF. As others have stated, the Avatars have not been killed, Pumpkin head has not been killed Wushi has not been killed.. many of these mobs could (Should) be dropping WAY better gear than what you will see in MMIS. MMIS was never intended to be the "End zone" of EoF, that is EH, and has always been stated as EH.. If you're getting shafted on gear in EH, then guess what.. Complain about their loot tables, and get them to upgrade it. As for Mayong requiring a piece harvested form EH, well. I think that seriously needs to be fixed to put the proper progression back in line.</P> <P>In my opinion, I think the loot in EH is a slap in the face considering how much trash you have to clear just to get to a named for absolutely nothing. I don't think EH should be dropping set gear at all.. I think the gear that drops in there should be better than any set gear you're going to see from the other zones, because it is THE END ZONE of EoF. It would be like going into DT in KoS, and getting absolutely nothing but 2 pieces of relic.</P> <P>Yes the mobs in MMIS are easy, but I don't think set gear is all that everyone is making it out to be. Some stats are nice, but there are pieces that are from KoS that still have better effects or better stats, even if you have a full set.</P> <P>I personally think they're not finished with the itemization of EH, and have put the set gear in there as placeholders for now, because they probably didn't expect guilds to be clearing as far as they have this early into the expansion.</P>

[Vorlak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>The point is not these mobs should nto drop set gear. It has always been the Named in IS are entirely to easy. This has been said since it was released.  Yes mobs in IS are easier then FTH mobs. Fix the named in IS and fix the charm/delevel lag. Then they can go about adjusting the random encounters of EH either making them harder or easier depending on where they want them in progression. Once again the loot is not the issue its the difficulty or really lack of difficulty of named in IS.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Once again you fail to realize that if the mobs are too easy, the loot is the easy. Difficulty of mobs and itemization of said mobs go hand in hand. If 1 is imbalanced 1-way, you can fix it in 2 different ways, 1 way is making the mobs harder, the other way is leaving the mobs with a joke of a loot table. Before the patch it was balanced, the mobs were a total joke, and the loot was applicable because the mobs were a total joke. I think somebody [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up, and put in 1 half of the patch without looking at the whole picture which shows a breakdown of communication from the developers, which means we end up with crap because people aren't doing their jobs properly, or it's from somebody who is leaving wanting to screw everything up so they put the patch in without waiting for the other half to be a total [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and say whatever, since they're leaving.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>the first 3 mobs in IS are on a shared loot table, they added class items to them... who cares you relize there are 24 classes in the game if you put shoulders to drop off 1 or 2 mobs you will have people complaining in the near future about how they only get <insert class here>.</P> <P>By sony adding the class slot item to this shared loot table they cut down on this and allow people to feel a sence of pride... Remember for 1% of the server to say a mob is a joke 99% of the server will have to figure out how to kill that said mob as it will not be easy for them.</P> <P>Also by adding the class item to the loot table it adds a buffer to how fast other rare loot from mobs enters the world, class gear is suppose to be more common the say a belt with some massive resist and + to all melee or casting abilities. </P> <P>also to the oringal OP you must have your own community, because you certainly arnt speeking for me - i like the fact they put more options of places to get class specific loot (there are 24 classes in the game). Who in there right mind wants to spend hours to kill a mob for 1 drop once a week, hopping that the random generator dosnt give you the same piece 3 weeks in a row that you will end up transmutting the rest of the gear in the game while you wait for yours to drop. </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:MMIS was never intended to be the "End zone" of EoF, that is EH, and has always been stated as EH..<hr></blockquote>That's the thing, MMIS IS supposed to be the End Zone. Think about it this way, you have to kill Wuoshi to get Tunarian Wolfsbane, you basically cannot kill Mayong without Tunarian Wolfsbane. How can MMIS NOT be the End Zone with that idea? Are you not looking at the entire picture which is the whole fact that Mayong needs a harvestable from EH to be killed, which you cannot get without clearing EH, which would mean EH is NOT the end zone, and that MMIS IS the End Zone. Not to mention, when I think of progression, I think the last piece of gear to get is the Chest slot, as it is, you can get the Chest slot before the Legs because the progression is screwed up, yet it's supposed to be the opposite way, as evidenced by the fact that you are supposed to get Tunarian Wolfsbane from EH, which you can only collect it AFTER killing Wuoshi, who drops Legs.<blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:I personally think they're not finished with the itemization of EH, and have put the set gear in there as placeholders for now, because they probably didn't expect guilds to be clearing as far as they have this early into the expansion.<hr></blockquote>You also don't realize that the only thing that is holding people back from clearing EH is the lag. Sure the mobs are killable, but the lag is making them harder than they are meant to be, which without the lag, they aren't all that hard. Why would EH not drop set gear? Where do you think the Legs are going to drop from, hrm, let's take a guess, Legs!

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>The point is not these mobs should nto drop set gear. It has always been the Named in IS are entirely to easy. This has been said since it was released.  Yes mobs in IS are easier then FTH mobs. Fix the named in IS and fix the charm/delevel lag. Then they can go about adjusting the random encounters of EH either making them harder or easier depending on where they want them in progression. Once again the loot is not the issue its the difficulty or really lack of difficulty of named in IS.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Once again you fail to realize that if the mobs are too easy, the loot is the easy. Difficulty of mobs and itemization of said mobs go hand in hand. If 1 is imbalanced 1-way, you can fix it in 2 different ways, 1 way is making the mobs harder, the other way is leaving the mobs with a joke of a loot table. Before the patch it was balanced, the mobs were a total joke, and the loot was applicable because the mobs were a total joke. I think somebody [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up, and put in 1 half of the patch without looking at the whole picture which shows a breakdown of communication from the developers, which means we end up with crap because people aren't doing their jobs properly, or it's from somebody who is leaving wanting to screw everything up so they put the patch in without waiting for the other half to be a total [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and say whatever, since they're leaving.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually no i just think the loot is a Moot issue. Who cares if the loot is to good for the mobs at the moment. Even after they fix these mobs. It will only take a few weeks for people to relearn these encounters. Maybe i am not as loot focused as other raiders, but to me it doesn't make a difference. The inevitability is that even after the difficulty of these mobs are increased. The will be killed shortly after and the same guilds clearing up to mayong will kill these mobs then too. Those guilds that die to courtesans will continue to wipe to these new improved named. Does it matter that these drop better loot then they should nope. I would rather have the correct loot table on a broken mob then a broken loot table on a broken mob. Seriously after the 5th "staff of kindred" enough is enough. Progression is still there there are harder mobs out there everyone needs to defeat. These mobs dropping loot doesnt stop that. They are 2 seperate things although related. a NPC progression and a loot progression. Ideally the loot progression should be tied with the NPC progression. </P> <P>This is not some conspiracy of peopel trying to screw the game. It is just the fact of 2 different developers designing 2 different zones. One of which was suppose to be harder then the other and it is clearly not... so as the original poster said wit his complaints on fabeld set gear from MMIS. I disagree and think his complaint is misplaced and it is not the LOOT it is the mobs. If these mobs drop decent gear for a few weeks while still being to easy. It doesn't matter. Truly it doesn't in a few months none of this will matter. When T8 comes out. The guilds will not be able to kill the same mobs you do. The will not have the same loot you do. Because each peice of set gear is tied to specific mobs. The progression is still there. This week they fix the broken loot table next month they fix the broken mobs. Take a deep breath you will be ok 1 month of people killing MMIS mobs will not all of a sudden destroy everything  you accomplished. It really does not matter.</P>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR>MMIS was never intended to be the "End zone" of EoF, that is EH, and has always been stated as EH..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>That's the thing, MMIS IS supposed to be the End Zone. Think about it this way, you have to kill Wuoshi to get Tunarian Wolfsbane, you basically cannot kill Mayong without Tunarian Wolfsbane. How can MMIS NOT be the End Zone with that idea? Are you not looking at the entire picture which is the whole fact that Mayong needs a harvestable from EH to be killed, which you cannot get without clearing EH, which would mean EH is NOT the end zone, and that MMIS IS the End Zone. Not to mention, when I think of progression, I think the last piece of gear to get is the Chest slot, as it is, you can get the Chest slot before the Legs because the progression is screwed up, yet it's supposed to be the opposite way, as evidenced by the fact that you are supposed to get Tunarian Wolfsbane from EH, which you can only collect it AFTER killing Wuoshi, who drops Legs.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Which is why I stated that they need to fix the Wolfsbane requirement for Mayong, or have another way of getting it other than re-doing your Tunare quests (if that's even possible) to put the progression back in line. The devs have clearly stated that EH is supposed to be the end-zone for EoF, not MMIS.</P> <P>I personally hope that Wuoshi will drop hella better gear than set legs if you ask me.. put those on some other mob.. and give something uber for the Taranax of EoF.</P>

[Vorlak]

<P>mayong maybe the final mob of EoF dosnt mean the first 5 named are....</P> <P>Did i missing something, i could have sworn somebody said woushi hasnt been beaten... If woushi has never been beaten, then how has mistmoore if you need an item from woushi... (at least on my server woushi hasnt died, but mayong has)</P><p>Message Edited by Vorlak on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:17 PM</span>

[Mermidon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Florin wrote:<BR><BR><BR>I doubt SoE will give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about what the top raiding guilds thing. In order to keep as many players as they can they make the game fun for more ppl than the hardcore guilds. If that means making some of the good loot available to the more casual guild, well then they will do that.<BR><BR>You ppl need to shut up about more ppl getting class loot.<BR><BR>What the hell are you even afraid of? Do you honestly think the loot will matter that much for a casual guild? Do you think they will start killing the harder mobs just couse they got a few pieces of class gear? <BR><BR>There are guilds that farmed Labs for months, everyone has a full set of relic and they STILL didnt kill Tarinax yet.<BR><BR>Casual guilds will always be casual. Besides, most of the new content is based on a perfect strat and a perfect execution of that strat. So pls stop crying like the kids that you are and just see about your game and not worry this much about other ppl fun.<BR><BR>God i hate kids.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Maybe you should realy think before your speak.  Who is the intended target when RAID content is added to the game?  Is it the tradeskillers, the soloers, the groupers or the RAIDers?  Wich one of those 4 would be the target demographic for RAID content?</P> <P>It is clearly the raiders.  Now would the supposed hardest, high end, top of line zone be catered to your begining raid force or a season raid force?  I repeat, would what is supposed to be the most challenging RAID instance be built for a raid that is barely able to move to the same room together or one that works well together and is very successful?</P> <P>It is clearly the seasoned raid force.  Therefore, if SOE cares about their game at all, in this regard they will listen to the RAIDERS and the top end ones at that in regards to this particular zone.</P> <P>Now try thinking again (I know it might be hard for some people out there).  What is most likely to cause people to leave the game.  Casual raiders getting plenty of nice gear, but only 3 pieces of the fabled sets until more time passes and they kill the harder mobs OR more dedicated raiders spending hour after hour, night after night through bugs, getting them fixed for the more casual players, getting untuned encounters tweaked to where they are doable, etc etc quiting because for all their hard work they get worse loot than they could have gotten 2 months ago off a mob they can 1 group?  </P> <P>Clearly the dedicated raiders are more likely to leave in this scenerio because their playstyle is being directly affected where everyone who is not a dedicated raider had a minor change to one small aspect of their gameplay tinkered with.  So if SOE wanted to retain the most amount of players they would listen to the people whom have chosen this playstyle.  </P> <P>Thank you for posting though about something you didnt think through at all.</P> <P>Bottom line is if this crap continues there will be no high end raiders.  You may say thats a good thing, but then the next expansion is released and by the end of it SOE realizes half the raid content was never gotten to/beat so they make half as much raid content the next time.  If it is at all progressing in difficulty half of that will not be cleared because only the top end guilds ever can clear the top end stuff in a current expansion and remember, they have gone away, so the next expansion has maybe 2 raids if your lucky and both of them so easy you beat them the first day they are out.  Grats, now you have bought an expansion with absolutely nothing to work for, look forwards to, etc etc all because everyone who made that part of the game successful has moved on.  So ask yourself this, do you want this game to die or do you want this game to succeed?  If the answer is succeed then you will realize that high end raiders are a must for a game developed such as EQ2 is.  If you choose die, just quit and move along.</P>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vorlak wrote:<BR> <P>mayong maybe the final mob of EoF dosnt mean the first 5 named are....</P> <P>Did i missing something, i could have sworn somebody said woushi hasnt been beaten... If woushi has never been beaten, then how has mistmoore if you need an item from woushi... </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>because anyone who has done the Tunarre quests zones into a special instance of EH where they are told to harvest it. problem is you can only do it once, and the item is consumed from one of your raid members every time you PULL Mayong.

[Psykil]

<P>Im not even going to waste time making a really long post so I will point out something that validates to what everyone is saying.</P> <P>If sony had made these changes but actually took the effort in fixing the bugs in EH and upgrading the loot there to what is currently dropping in IS, would we all be complaining? Probably not.</P> <P>What some of you "casual" raiders are saying is true, it does drop of named encounters, so its not really like relic, but in a sense it is, let me explain. IS is probably the easiest of all instances, and I say this from facts... more guilds have killed everything in there up to Mayong than anything else in game, where on the other hand zones like EH because of difficulty alot of guilds cannot even get off the 1st floor, so why is the gear worse now than stuff you would get from IS?</P> <P>I think alot of us who have put alot of hard work in this expansion thus far just feel shaded is all, there is no sense of award or accomplishment for what we are currently working towards, and honestly ppl bringing up contesteds and avatars dont have a clue probably because they havent thrown themselves at them for hours yet. They are only difficult atm because of lag and bugs, so dont consider that progression.</P> <P>Sony had a chance once again to implement a good change and borked it by slapping us in the face, actually I would feel better being slapped in the face actually, cause it doesnt cost me 15bucks a month and 3-6hrs a day of my life.</P>

[Mermidon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Gungo wrote:</P> <P>Actually no i just think the loot is a Moot issue. Who cares if the loot is to good for the mobs at the moment. Even after they fix these mobs. It will only take a few weeks for people to relearn these encounters. Maybe i am not as loot focused as other raiders, but to me it doesn't make a difference. The inevitability is that even after the difficulty of these mobs are increased. The will be killed shortly after and the same guilds clearing up to mayong will kill these mobs then too. Those guilds that die to courtesans will continue to wipe to these new improved named. Does it matter that these drop better loot then they should nope. I would rather have the correct loot table on a broken mob then a broken loot table on a broken mob. Seriously after the 5th "staff of kindred" enough is enough. Progression is still there there are harder mobs out there everyone needs to defeat. These mobs dropping loot doesnt stop that. They are 2 seperate things although related. a NPC progression and a loot progression. Ideally the loot progression should be tied with the NPC progression.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gungo, everyone who is a real raider has told you the loot is definitly an issue. You do NOT get it.  Just sack it up and realize this issue is above your head.  Im sorry, you play on Crushbone, your not a high end raider so you certantly cannot speak for them.

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR>MMIS was never intended to be the "End zone" of EoF, that is EH, and has always been stated as EH..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR>That's the thing, MMIS IS supposed to be the End Zone. Think about it this way, you have to kill Wuoshi to get Tunarian Wolfsbane, you basically cannot kill Mayong without Tunarian Wolfsbane. How can MMIS NOT be the End Zone with that idea? Are you not looking at the entire picture which is the whole fact that Mayong needs a harvestable from EH to be killed, which you cannot get without clearing EH, which would mean EH is NOT the end zone, and that MMIS IS the End Zone. Not to mention, when I think of progression, I think the last piece of gear to get is the Chest slot, as it is, you can get the Chest slot before the Legs because the progression is screwed up, yet it's supposed to be the opposite way, as evidenced by the fact that you are supposed to get Tunarian Wolfsbane from EH, which you can only collect it AFTER killing Wuoshi, who drops Legs.<BR><BR>__________________________________________________ ________________________</P> <P>Pinkski is correct MMIS was ment to be the hardest INSTANCE. Wuoshi does drop the legs. This is all confirmed by developers. (Just not on these boards =P). The mobs in MMIS are not working correctly. Some of the Ae's are not going off. The problem is the holidays kinda put a delay on fixing them. But LU32 should contain many fixes. </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[arieste]

<P>OK, so given that under current conditions it would take 6months-1yr to outfit a guild in these sets, if you lower the drop rate to make it 1yr+ for full sets, is it then your hope that there is no upgrades to these in the next year?   Forget a level cap, which would make them 100% useless, but if the next expansion is level 70, would you be happy with no new armor, since you will still be in the process of getting this armor?</P> <P>Look at the bigger picture.   The point is not to "get the armor" for linking in chat, the point is to get it in time to use it.  </P>

[Vorlak]

<P>Um... there will always be some sort of wanna be raid force that isnt casual.</P> <P>Sony listens to a broad range of people... but i havnt seen them do an avg yet as they always make it way to hard or way to easy. Its like one day they listen to Fabled people who have already expolited the loot and mobs say oh now this is to easy so they make it hard, then alot of people say hey this is to hard so they make it easy...</P> <P>its a visious circle.</P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR>MMIS was never intended to be the "End zone" of EoF, that is EH, and has always been stated as EH..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR>That's the thing, MMIS IS supposed to be the End Zone. Think about it this way, you have to kill Wuoshi to get Tunarian Wolfsbane, you basically cannot kill Mayong without Tunarian Wolfsbane. How can MMIS NOT be the End Zone with that idea? Are you not looking at the entire picture which is the whole fact that Mayong needs a harvestable from EH to be killed, which you cannot get without clearing EH, which would mean EH is NOT the end zone, and that MMIS IS the End Zone. Not to mention, when I think of progression, I think the last piece of gear to get is the Chest slot, as it is, you can get the Chest slot before the Legs because the progression is screwed up, yet it's supposed to be the opposite way, as evidenced by the fact that you are supposed to get Tunarian Wolfsbane from EH, which you can only collect it AFTER killing Wuoshi, who drops Legs.<BR><BR>__________________________________________________ ________________________</P> <P>Pinkski is correct MMIS was ment to be the hardest INSTANCE. Wuoshi does drop the legs. This is all confirmed by developers. (Just not on these boards =P). The mobs in MMIS are not working correctly. Some of the Ae's are not going off. The problem is the holidays kinda put a delay on fixing them. But LU32 should contain many fixes. </P></BLOCKQUOTE><hr></blockquote> I would rather have IS taken out of the game, than have what we have in its place now. They did it with KoS with 2 raid zones, and I would be happy that I'd be getting a better product later than what we have now. They should make things as difficult or more difficult than intended when things are released, not revamp things to be more difficult after release, because that means everybody already has the loot off the mobs, when in reality they shouldn't have it at all. If the mobs are broken, the loot table should be setup in a broken fashion as well, like it was before. But instead, they fix the loot table without fixing the ENTIRE issue, which leaves the mobs as BROKEN. Thus, progression gets broken by doing this. Take the loot table fix away, now, remove ALL the gear from people who got it. I don't care if I lose a piece of gear, I just want things fixed. Raiding content in this game has been broken since it was released. And to the comment that Disso bugged SD, I will call you a big giant liar. Nobody bugged anybody in SD for the strat, in fact there was no need to bug anybody for the strat, why? Because it's the god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Matron encounter all over again.

[Psykil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vorlak wrote:<BR> <P>Um... there will always be some sort of wanna be raid force that isnt casual.</P> <P>Sony listens to a broad range of people... but i havnt seen them do an avg yet as they always make it way to hard or way to easy. Its like one day they listen to Fabled people who have already expolited the loot and mobs say oh now this is to easy so they make it hard, then alot of people say hey this is to hard so they make it easy...</P> <P>its a visious circle.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you're right, thats why progression is so important. </P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mermidon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Gungo wrote:</P> <P>Actually no i just think the loot is a Moot issue. Who cares if the loot is to good for the mobs at the moment. Even after they fix these mobs. It will only take a few weeks for people to relearn these encounters. Maybe i am not as loot focused as other raiders, but to me it doesn't make a difference. The inevitability is that even after the difficulty of these mobs are increased. The will be killed shortly after and the same guilds clearing up to mayong will kill these mobs then too. Those guilds that die to courtesans will continue to wipe to these new improved named. Does it matter that these drop better loot then they should nope. I would rather have the correct loot table on a broken mob then a broken loot table on a broken mob. Seriously after the 5th "staff of kindred" enough is enough. Progression is still there there are harder mobs out there everyone needs to defeat. These mobs dropping loot doesnt stop that. They are 2 seperate things although related. a NPC progression and a loot progression. Ideally the loot progression should be tied with the NPC progression.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gungo, everyone who is a real raider has told you the loot is definitly an issue. You do NOT get it.  Just sack it up and realize this issue is above your head.  Im sorry, you play on Crushbone, your not a high end raider so you certantly cannot speak for them.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What the heck are you talking about. Can you even read? I did not speak for anyone. My paragraph was in first person. I am sorry you are illiterate. Apparently reading comprehension is above your head. Seriously stop crying. It doesn't matter. The loot dropping off the named in MMIS were always suppose to drop off them. The peices they now drop ARE just being discovered. Yes they were NEVER in game. This is how it was suppose to be. The class loot they are dropping does NOT drop in EH. The loot you get in EH is not being undermined by drops in MMIS.  <BR>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:The loot you get in EH is not being undermined by drops in MMIS.<hr></blockquote>By way of Progression, yes, yes they are. You're supposed to be able to clear EH to clear MMIS. Well, now you're getting extra equipment that you shouldn't be able to unless you are able to clear EH. Wait a second, that means you are getting gear that makes you better which you shouldn't be getting in the first place unless you can do something else because of the way progression works. Therefore, the loot drops in MMIS is underming the value of loot in EH.

[Mermidon]

<DIV>Gungo, since you seemed to have missed it and not even know what you, yourself, have posted Ill explain it to you:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You were saying that loot is not part of the issue the high end raiders have with this change.  It most certantly is.  Therefore you were trying to speak for the high end raiders, but you are not one of them and have no grounds to speak for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you understand now?  Does it need to be dumbed down further?  A simple yes or no will suffice, or is that too hard too?</DIV>

[Psykil]

<DIV>Gungo, were saying they shouldnt drop there period, and if they were always intended to drop there than the mobs should be more difficult, or atleast as hard as EH is. Pleae tell me btw, what kind of loot should we be getting in EH?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and try not to funk this thread up by arguing about things off topic, you seem to miss the point alot and need to be reminded.</DIV>

[arieste]

<P>I also have to mention, that I am absolutely touched by the raiding community's sudden interest in storyline continuity.  I mean, this thing with the wolfbane being ahead of mayong is just way off storyline-wise and you guys are great for pointing it out!  Kudos to you!</P> <P>Btw, there is an NPC in the shimmering citadel called the Mute Bard, he has voice emotes (i.e. he says "hello" when you come up to him), this totally breaks with the storyline continuity also, since he is supposed to be mute.  If only all these hardcore raiders that care so much about lore continuity had cared about him, maybe he would have been fixed by now also.  Of course he had no effect on raid loot, but surely that has nothing to do with it...</P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mermidon wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gungo, since you seemed to have missed it and not even know what you, yourself, have posted Ill explain it to you:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You were saying that loot is not part of the issue the high end raiders have with this change.  It most certantly is.  Therefore you were trying to speak for the high end raiders, but you are not one of them and have no grounds to speak for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you understand now?  Does it need to be dumbed down further?  A simple yes or no will suffice, or is that too hard too?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff33>Apparently You cant read either. Here is the link you qouted please show me where i said Loot is not part of the issue the high end raiders have with this change. Simple english class dictates that first person is the view of the owners opinion. Apparently either english is a second language to you or you are just to dumb to understand. Is that to hard to understand?</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Gungo wrote:</P> <P>Actually no i just think the loot is a Moot issue. Who cares if the loot is to good for the mobs at the moment. Even after they fix these mobs. It will only take a few weeks for people to relearn these encounters. Maybe i am not as loot focused as other raiders, but to me it doesn't make a difference. The inevitability is that even after the difficulty of these mobs are increased. The will be killed shortly after and the same guilds clearing up to mayong will kill these mobs then too. Those guilds that die to courtesans will continue to wipe to these new improved named. Does it matter that these drop better loot then they should nope. I would rather have the correct loot table on a broken mob then a broken loot table on a broken mob. Seriously after the 5th "staff of kindred" enough is enough. Progression is still there there are harder mobs out there everyone needs to defeat. These mobs dropping loot doesnt stop that. They are 2 seperate things although related. a NPC progression and a loot progression. Ideally the loot progression should be tied with the NPC progression.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>As you can clearly see i never said anything remotely close to what you are saying. In otherwords your wrong. I would really like to know what you think a high end raider is becasue apprently clearing 3 eof zones minus mayong and second floor EH access is not. So a high end raider is only the so called top 6-8 guilds world wide now. So if you are not in those so called top 6-8 guilds your opinion doesn't matter. Good call try pushing that PR move on SOE.</FONT></P>

[Caetrel]

This talk of pregression always devolves into an uber versus casual argument and that is not the point.  This game is all about the carrot.  If you get the carrot handed to you, on a plate, it diminishes your desire to progress, no matter who you are.  Raiders put more effort into the game than non-raiders, hardcore raiders put even more effort in.   If MMIS is a candyland of easy loot, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would anyone want to bother doing EH, which is buggy and takes alot of time?  It undermines the very reason for which people raid.  There needs to be a rhyme and reason.  This affects everyone negatively, even the people who don't know it yet <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Ultimately it will not matter.  Raiders will be equipped based on progress, they sort of were in KoS as messed up as that was.  It seems like SOE wants the line between to be finer, to what avail I'm not sure.   I know one thing.  My guild, which manages to beat all or most instanced content with only 12-13 hours raiding per week, got bored to tears in KoS because the loot came too quickly.  I should not be one of the best geared in my class, but I am- 12 hours a week- that is totally messed up.   There are several guilds on my server that raid 5,6 nights a week who are not any further in clearing content than my guild and who aren't better geared.   The harder raids are, the scarcer the loot, the more people stay interested in the game.  This affects us all the same.  I don't care if NPU and Disso have better gear, lol, they should.  Anyone who wants that gear can go join a hardcore guild.  What I do care about is that I still like the game and that my people want to keep playing it.   Labs of Lord Mayong is not a good thing. <div></div>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Psykil wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gungo, were saying they shouldnt drop there period, and if they were always intended to drop there than the mobs should be more difficult, or atleast as hard as EH is. Pleae tell me btw, what kind of loot should we be getting in EH?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and try not to funk this thread up by arguing about things off topic, you seem to miss the point alot and need to be reminded.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No i agree the mobs should be made more difficult. </P> <P>There is nothing off topic about this. There is several misconceptions in this thread. One is that MMIS should not drop class set peices. There was a list that said which class pieces dropped off which mob. The mobs in MMIS never dropped these peices until now. It is the same reason how people knew that woushi dropped the legs, and mayogn dropped the chest before these mobs were/are killed. </P> <P>Your opinion is MMIS should not drop set pieces because they are to easy. Mind you these set peices have no compaprable peice dropping in EH. Lets say guard shoulders drop in MMIS these do not drop in EH. They are tied to a specific mob.  While ranger shoudlers may drop in EH these are not undermined by guardian shoulders dropping in MMIS. </P> <P>My opinion is that the mobs in MMIS are to easy and needs to be fixed. Whether or not the loot table is fixed. </P> <P>Some like pinski rather they wait until the fix the mobs before putting in the class set. This is fine although I believe whether these mobs drop the peices now or later doesn't matter because they will be killed by the same guilds in a rather short time. </P> <P>The loot intended for EH is class set pieces tied to certain named (random or not) and a few global peices, with a few special peices tied to certain named. There is no real loot progression class forearms drops in FTH, MMIS, and EH. The only difference is which class set drops where. The only  true loot progression is woushi drops the legs and mayong drops the chest. Mayong was and probably is harder then woushi. </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:There was a list that said which class pieces dropped off which mob.*snip*It is the same reason how people knew that woushi dropped the legs, and mayogn dropped the chest before these mobs were/are killed.<hr></blockquote>There was a list where? The beta boards? No, there was NEVER a list of that sort. Everybody took a wild guess based on progression that Mayong was supposed to be the hardest, and the Chest should drop off the hardest mob, right? Well, let's think about it, 1+1=2, and that gave us that answer. There has NEVER been a list of what mobs drop what pieces created by the devs and handed out. The only list that was made was by players from what had already dropped. So I'd like to know where you got a list saying that Mayong drops the BP before anybody killed it, because I have never seen a dev-created list of that sort ever.

[ChaosUndivided]

<DIV>What Pinski Said.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gungo]

It was never on the boards, but the pieces were predetermined to drop off specific named.<p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 PM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:It was never on the boards.<hr></blockquote>Then there was no list. If it is not publically on the boards, there is no list available to everybody, therefore you are either a) lying, or something else.

[Snarks]

Theres 2 problems here I think need to be addressed:The first is the fact that this loot was not even in the game before they added it.  Giving raiders incomplete sets boggles my mind. And then, instead of adding it on mobs of difficulty (EH), they just throw it on some easy named in inner sanctum. A huge blow to itemization.The second is the whole sense of progression in this expansion. Mistmoore, the boss, and his zone, are a joke. Yet there continues to be unaddressed lag issues that plague the supposed "Easier" zone Emerald Halls. In a 2 hour trip to Inner sanctum you can score 7 fabled set pieces with ease, yet 6 hours of invested time in Emerald Halls will net you 1 set piece if you are <i>lucky</i>. Why is Emerald Halls filled with meaningless trash and random named with poor loot tables? Why is it the zone that requires the most effort yet nets the worst reward? Why are developers adding these rewards to the easiest "Loot-fest" in the game?These questions sorely need to be answered and addressed. I've said it before: This expansion truly has the worst progression and now, arguably, the worst itemization, of any content relase to date. Where are developers heading with this? There are lessons to be learned, and there are plenty of concerned people who post detailed solutions every week since release, yet these problems not only continue, they get worse. And these are common sense solutions. We are not asking developers to do anything groundbreaking or of huge investment. All of this could be solved with simple common sense and a reorganization of effort vs. reward. But you know what? It's not getting addressed, and after two years, I fear it never will be.<div></div>

[shamefu11]

I truely love the people who are content to raid maybe 2 times a week. They think its awesome they have the gear that Guilds that raid 4 hrs every day have... anyways, Inner sanctum, 7 set peices 2 hrs tops. Emerald Halls, 2 Peices, well, uhm, we held the zone overnight one time... Tender of the seedling is on par difficulty with Matron if you dont know what you are doing, and even if you do to an extent. = same loot as a 2 grpable lvl 72 gargoyle in Inner Sanctum.  This is what i believe the problem was. They upped the difficulty in EH 1 day before launch. It was changed in beta on the last day, Inner sanctum was not patched /  upped in difficulty, Inner sanctum is the labs of EoF currently, and is meant to be The Deathtoll. EH is meant to be idk... 2nd hardest in EoF, it is currently the hardest. Now lets not even GO INTO risk vs. reward. cos well i will own all u casuals in the temple. cos there is no risk in what you do. Now we can go into this whole 'THATS OK SET GEAR IS JUST RELICCCCCCC!'   the way it is dropping it is relic, the way the stats, as compared to other loot this teir is not. For some classes set gear is the final armor until contested, for others KoS gear, *mostly mages* will be the armor of choice until we see contested gear. the fact that pickupraids can be in DT equivilant gear, is not acceptable this early into the expansion. The armor dropping off clockwork is total [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], Granted the cloth cuffs are amazing. The armor outta FTH thats not set, well its nothing special, the MO pants are better then the cloth ones anyday. the armor thats dropping, well set gear has better stats, resists, and overall HP / PP. Set gear is the final teir of gear before Contested. there is nothing in-between, this is not a " gear yerself up to clear harder instances" type gear. this is indeed, End game gear, until contested die. <div></div>

[Mermidon]

<P>EH isnt even that hard, its just horribly laggy.  Talking to my friends on other servers some servers have it nice they only get 5-10 second lag freezes when certain mob abilities are used.  Other servers are as bad as 30 seconds regularily and in some cases they have been frozen for over a minute when the Gardener does his charm.</P> <P>SOE really just needs to fix the lag associated with this.  I dont know why the above is true, perhaps because some of the servers have received upgrades so they perform better than others or something, but I would imagine dealing with 5-10second lag is a lot more manageable than the 30second or more we get on my server.  Hell, sometimes the Gardener's charm froze us from wearing off and before the game unfroze, Furious storm, burning moon, and another charm had already hit.  We were able to move for about 1-2 seconds before that charm wore off rendering us dead, not even long enough to cast a heal in between.</P> <P>I should add, I am sure it wont be long before one of those servers with less lag does manage to kill the gardener.  I also bet Wuoshi isnt that hard based on the reports from a guild that had a bugged gardener and got a pull on him over a month ago.  Would be a lot more fun though if all the servers had the same lag to deal with, pretty lame if you ask me that some people get that kind of advantage.</P><p>Message Edited by Mermidon on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 PM</span>

[Psykil]

<DIV>We have actually had the gardner reset several times due to his lag, it lags the zone and us so bad that he actually RESETS. yes seriously, and whats worse is the logs and everything else were mailed to Dymuss, the developer of the zone WEEKS ago.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second Dawn has actually killed this encounter, Im not entirely sure if it was because the lag issue has been fixed or if it was just good timing and they fought there [Removed for Content] off thru 10sec lag spikes, who knows, but as stated earlier. Gardner dead = Woushi dead which in this case was true, SD killed Gardner and than Woushi... so in other words some ppl are being blocked by this lag not being able to kill gradner.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyhow back to the topic, I think the only solution being that sony is not going to revamp the zone again removing loot, they should make IS as difficult as it was intended, and we know that none of the gear pickup raids have gotten over the last few days will be revoked by anymeans at all, so basically the only option we have as customers and hardcore raiders is to either sack it up and take it up the tail pipe, or quit the game. Personally I'll admit I will take it up the tail pipe cause im [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and even tho I know sony will continue to make these easily avoidable mistakes, for some reason I continue to pay for this game and Sony knows it. </DIV> <DIV>(for now)</DIV>

[Snarks]

<b>Grats to SD of course</b>, but I hope they take the high ground and work hard to get the lag fixed (obviously developers think their feedback is important), instead of just saying "great job, working as intended", etc. Which we've seen before.Bolded so there is no confusion.<div></div>

[Rezikai]

<P>Meh... Second Dawn killed Woushi tonight.. (grats them) .. and the set legs dropped.. and something else i forgot.. shield i think...</P> <P>As for the whole progression.. im pretty sure the pretty dark elf lady in this thread from Siege is correct in progression..</P> <P>MMIS is not... after EH in progression..</P> <P>I cant find the thread at the moment.. but i remember  they said the progression was</P> <OL> <LI>Clockwork Menace</LI> <LI>Freethinkers</LI> <LI>Mistmoore Inner Sanctum</LI> <LI>Emerald Halls</LI> <LI>Pumpkin Headed Horsemen</LI> <LI>8 Avatars</LI></OL> <P>so those hoping so bad for Mayong to be the tough end mob they knew in EQ1.. eh hate to be the bubble burster.. have a look at the Lore boards.. apparently the timesplit in the overall storyline changed his Lore so that he never ascended to godhood.. or somthing to that effect.. so hes not so badass as he used to be known (sorry goth kid players that have a shrine in their mom's basement to him)</P> <P>oh... and wheres Second Dawn w/ the Loot/death Pics of Woushi... we want to see :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Psykil]

<DIV>If thats true than why are there items specifically designed for mayong fight dropping or lootable in EH? doesnt make any sense to me.</DIV>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Porkchop133 wrote:<BR> <P>Meh... Second Dawn killed Woushi tonight.. (grats them) .. and the set legs dropped.. and something else i forgot.. shield i think...</P> <P>As for the whole progression.. im pretty sure the pretty dark elf lady in this thread from Siege is correct in progression..</P> <P>MMIS is not... after EH in progression..</P> <P>I cant find the thread at the moment.. but i remember  they said the progression was</P> <OL> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Clockwork Menace</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Freethinkers</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Mistmoore Inner Sanctum</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Emerald Halls</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Pumpkin Headed Horsemen</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>8 Avatars</FONT></LI></OL> <P>so those hoping so bad for Mayong to be the tough end mob they knew in EQ1.. eh hate to be the bubble burster.. have a look at the Lore boards.. apparently the timesplit in the overall storyline changed his Lore so that he never ascended to godhood.. or somthing to that effect.. so hes not so badass as he used to be known (sorry goth kid players that have a shrine in their mom's basement to him)</P> <P>oh... and wheres Second Dawn w/ the Loot/death Pics of Woushi... we want to see :smileyvery-happy:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>> Thats was the thread info i was looking for too , but all these HC raiders are crying cos the loot that was INTENDED to drop is dropping of mobs that are easier than THEY deem them to be , guess what guys its got NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU how soe designs ITS content.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The main issue in this whole thread is that the loot in EH isnt right its got nothing to do with MiS loot tables actaully being correct why not make a bloody thread called "EH Not Dropping leet uberness Gear for the Haxxored Emos"</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>When people down 5,6 then come back and complain , good god guys get over it MiS mobs droping loot is WORKING AS INTENDED .. are the encounters ? nope .. but is that a different issue yes.  People are flaming gungo and the guys spot on , let me direct you to the thread title " Mis Dropping Fabled set gear- (keep it real)" so on topic should this gear be droping .. YES any other issues make a new [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thread.</FONT></P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Psykil wrote:<BR> <DIV>If thats true than why are there items specifically designed for mayong fight dropping or lootable in EH? doesnt make any sense to me.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>just becasue theres an item in a harder zone to make him easier it does that mean the lore is out of place ?</P>

[s]

<DIV>Well maybe, just maybe, it's a little tiny hint towards the intended progression. Kill all zones except MMIS and EH to be able to take on EH, clear EH to be able to beat MMIS. Naaaah, how could that ever be true...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I honestly can't believe people saying it is ok for the best instanced gear to drop off the easiest mobs, even though they are named mobs. This whole thing called progression means absolutely nothing to you does it? Killing the first few mobs in a zone, get their gear and then be able to kill the other mobs in the zone to get slightly better gear so you can take on the next zone in the line of progression. Is it so difficult to understand that any game should work like that? The further you progress, the better the rewards/stuff you get. This goes for any kind of game; FPS get the big fat gun of destruction in lvl1, [Removed for Content]? Get the kickass elite units that whack everything they see after 2 turns, does that seem right to you? No, you have to work for your rewards and MMIS either gives the wrong rewards or is too easy, you pick. Either up its difficulty or get rid of the loot, put it on the more difficult mobs in EH, FTH and add missing stuff to TA in MMIS. Give these [Removed for Content] named mobs the loot they had, some decent pieces and some crappy pieces because that's what the mobs are. That, or make fighting them worth giving you class armor when they drop.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit: oh and just to be clear, wolfsbane does not make mayong easier, it makes him killable. Can't kill him without it - period.</DIV><p>Message Edited by sro on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:48 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sro wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well maybe, just maybe, it's a little tiny hint towards the intended progression. Kill all zones except MMIS and EH to be able to take on EH, clear EH to be able to beat MMIS. Naaaah, how could that ever be true...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/Says who ? you ? </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I honestly can't believe people saying it is ok for the best instanced gear to drop off the easiest mobs, even though they are named mobs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/would you rather them have 5 million hps and NOT drop stuff no because if that happened you would you be posting now that wah wah wah no loot wah wah wah ? do you not see the point is that the loot is INTENDED off those nameds just becasue they are easy for you it still doesnt escape from the FACT that the items were always meant to drop off them in the first place , kudos to soe the game isnt just for HC raiders you know.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This whole thing called progression means absolutely nothing to you does it? Killing the first few mobs in a zone, get their gear and then be able to kill the other mobs in the zone to get slightly better gear so you can take on the next zone in the line of progression. Is it so difficult to understand that any game should work like that? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/umm it does work that way the loot you get will enable you to take out the real badasses avatars , pumpkin etc etc so thats for pointing that out , what was your point again ? </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The further you progress, the better the rewards/stuff you get. This goes for any kind of game; FPS get the big fat gun of destruction in lvl1, [Removed for Content]? Get the kickass elite units that whack everything they see after 2 turns, does that seem right to you? </DIV> <DIV>No, you have to work for your rewards and MMIS either gives the wrong rewards or is too easy, you pick. Either up its difficulty or get rid of the loot, put it on the more difficult mobs in EH, FTH and add missing stuff to TA in MMIS. Give these [Removed for Content] named mobs the loot they had, some decent pieces and some crappy pieces because that's what the mobs are. That, or make fighting them worth giving you class armor when they drop.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit: oh and just to be clear, wolfsbane does not make mayong easier, it makes him killable. Can't kill him without it - period.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by sro on <SPAN class=date_text>01-09-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:48 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>you ever happy ? you never do anything but complain so why do you bother playing the game ? the hc raiders will always whine the people who enjoy playing the game for fun wont , go away sit in guild chat and complain about how leet you are and compare uber fabled items all day , whatever turns you on just let others have a chance to progress there character too.  I cant see why people can even complain that the correct loot is dropping its sooo funny its unreal if the loot wasnt dropping there would be numerous complaints about it just how can soe win ?</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[s]

<DIV>Aww I touched a nerve there?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play this game, just like you, because it's fun and I like it. If something happens I don't like I can sit back and suck it up, or let people know I'm displeased. I choose the latter.</DIV> <DIV>Just because I enjoy raiding doesn't mean I'm some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that looks down on anyone below me and laugh at them thinking how pathetic they are. You don't know me at all if that's what you think. Just like you I want this game to be as good as it can be and obviously my playstyle influences the way I think this game should be, as does yours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, so personal attacks asside. Yes it is me saying progression is everything else > EH > MMIS > EoF contested, it is you saying the opposite in regards to EH and MMIS. Who is right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're being ignorant if you think I'm asking for mobs to have insane HP and drop no loot. Read my post again. The loot might very well be intended for the mobs (just mob names) it currently drops from. The difficulty of these mobs however is totally borked and therefor for now, until these mobs are fixed, this loot should NOT be dropping off these mobs. For now, just keep the > old loottables < and re-add the class gear when they fix the mobs. There, repeated for you. The old loottable was perfectly fine, no complaints at all (see I can say positive things too and I'm an elitist HC raider snob, [Removed for Content]). When the mobs get fixed, assuming they will be of the same difficulty as ANY other class-gear-dropping mob currently in the game, everything would be perfectly fine again. (wow, being nice twice in the same paragraph?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game is not at all catered towards HC raiders, that's just you saying so because there are 10 or 20 mobs in this game you will never be able to kill. I think that kinda reflects the HC Raiders - Other People balance in EQ2 doesn't it? They are not keeping stuff from you at all, you can go and try kill the second named mob in FTH for class gear, and I am sure you will eventually be able to and have access to your gear aswell. It's just that you seem to want it all now, you don't seem to want anything to work for you just want it handed over right here right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The ONLY point and really the ONLY one is: I don't want to see the best loot drop off of the easiest mobs, period. Nothing more nothing less. I want to work for my gear and earn it, not sneeze and pick up a piece of set loot from some random named's corpse. These mobs are so easy right now, even pickup raids are killing them and getting world first discoveries on the loot on their first go at the zone ever. You even seem to agree with me that EH + MMIS at least go after CMF and FTH in the line of progression, so why the hell can even some pickup raids kill 95% of MMIS but not even a quarter of FTH or any other EoF zone?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When we get to the point of being able to kill EoF contested mobs I want to be able to say that I earned those kills, I don't want to kill them because I accidentily put up an angry look at some mobs in MMIS and got all the fat loot handed over to me. You are right I guess when you say that I don't like seeing some random person run around QH with gear I had to spend hours and hours of clearing trash and then wiping in EH for to get, while I know he probably just glanced at some mob in MMIS to get his. I don't mind casuals players or your average raider running around in class gear or any gear whatsoever for that matter. If they killed the mob that drops it they deserved whatever dropped, although when mobs drop stuff they should not be dropping (or at least not in their current state) I don't believe they are entitled to any of that loot. Neither am I, before you go at me for being elitist again. I don't deserve class gear for killing these named mobs in MMIS and neither do you, not until they fix the mobs anyway. That is what I believe, you obviously disagree with me and think the easy mobs - and they're called easy not because they're easy for the uber raiders but becaus they're easy compared to ANY other EoF mob - should drop the best instance gear. That is where we disagree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if you could write something sensible without having to call me a whiny HC raider sob every other sentence, lets try again shall we?</DIV>

[DarkMirrax]

<DIV> <HR> sro wrote:<BR> <DIV>Aww I touched a nerve there?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/Possibly but then im a touchy git and arrogant to go with it comes with raiding i guess :smileywink:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play this game, just like you, because it's fun and I like it. If something happens I don't like I can sit back and suck it up, or let people know I'm displeased. I choose the latter.</DIV> <DIV>Just because I enjoy raiding doesn't mean I'm some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that looks down on anyone below me and laugh at them thinking how pathetic they are. You don't know me at all if that's what you think. Just like you I want this game to be as good as it can be and obviously my playstyle influences the way I think this game should be, as does yours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/Agreed</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, so personal attacks asside. Yes it is me saying progression is everything else > EH > MMIS > EoF contested, it is you saying the opposite in regards to EH and MMIS. Who is right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/indeed who is right have the devs stated MMiS is the end zone ? has the end zone even been discovered yet imo that might be brought in with unrest and the new epic questline might it not ? my point is we dont know and a lot of what is being posted is peoples own assumtptions.  Yes i assume MMiS isnt the end zone and others assume it is but until we get some clarification we just dont know so yes I could be completly wrong but then so could the others.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're being ignorant if you think I'm asking for mobs to have insane HP and drop no loot. Read my post again. The loot might very well be intended for the mobs (just mob names) it currently drops from. The difficulty of these mobs however is totally borked and therefor for now, until these mobs are fixed, this loot should NOT be dropping off these mobs. For now, just keep the > old loottables < and re-add the class gear when they fix the mobs. There, repeated for you. The old loottable was perfectly fine, no complaints at all (see I can say positive things too and I'm an elitist HC raider snob, [Removed for Content]). When the mobs get fixed, assuming they will be of the same difficulty as ANY other class-gear-dropping mob currently in the game, everything would be perfectly fine again. (wow, being nice twice in the same paragraph?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/I agree with you with the mob difficulty i never said anything less but i dont agree the loot shouldnt be dropping but as you said thats my personal opinion :smileywink: i dont think the answer is to change the loot tables its to change the mobs and im sure we both agree 100 % on that but in the meantime people will exploit those mobs whilst there difficulty is unbalanced, is it right .. no but guilds did the same with the KoS raid zones.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game is not at all catered towards HC raiders, that's just you saying so because there are 10 or 20 mobs in this game you will never be able to kill. I think that kinda reflects the HC Raiders - Other People balance in EQ2 doesn't it? They are not keeping stuff from you at all, you can go and try kill the second named mob in FTH for class gear, and I am sure you will eventually be able to and have access to your gear aswell. It's just that you seem to want it all now, you don't seem to want anything to work for you just want it handed over right here right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/Heh who says i dont raid ?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The ONLY point and really the ONLY one is: I don't want to see the best loot drop off of the easiest mobs, period. Nothing more nothing less. I want to work for my gear and earn it, not sneeze and pick up a piece of set loot from some random named's corpse. These mobs are so easy right now, even pickup raids are killing them and getting world first discoveries on the loot on their first go at the zone ever. You even seem to agree with me that EH + MMIS at least go after CMF and FTH in the line of progression, so why the hell can even some pickup raids kill 95% of MMIS but not even a quarter of FTH or any other EoF zone?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/Because the encounters clearly are unblanced but again is the answer to remove the loot tables and then spend months getting soe to re-add them back in once fixed ? hell no thanks we have had soe experience on that before lol ! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and the only reason they are getting world firsts is because its new class loot thats been added just like casual people discoverd x treasured item on release of EoF.  is it right casuals are grabbing nice gear while they can , personal view nope but then again as mentioned i would rather the loot be there than not be there as that would be a bigger kick in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] imo.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When we get to the point of being able to kill EoF contested mobs I want to be able to say that I earned those kills, I don't want to kill them because I accidentily put up an angry look at some mobs in MMIS and got all the fat loot handed over to me. You are right I guess when you say that I don't like seeing some random person run around QH with gear I had to spend hours and hours of clearing trash and then wiping in EH for to get, while I know he probably just glanced at some mob in MMIS to get his.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/Thats my point that casual probably worked his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off and got lucky , easy for you isnt a fair comparison for casuals .yes i know casual and pickups can do it but at the same time pickups can clear most if not all KoS zones too (pickups after all are mainly HC raider alts lol ) the main issue is that its unblanced with EH and i dont dissagree there at all and it might surprise you that i agree with a lot of what your saying from the HC raid guilds side but i also look at it from the casual side too to try and get the whole picture.  Can you imagine how happy a casual person is when they get one peice of uber leet loot ! compare that feeling to a hc raider who for him its just another meh item or hmm nice stats but nothing better than or on par with what i have.  For me the kick would be clearing x zone just because its hard and i can say yup did it but the loot sucked ! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (which is usually the case lol).  We all know MiS mobs will be scaled but again dont let soe touch the loot tables or it will take till the next level cap for the correct loot to be readded !!!!!!! :smileywink:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I don't mind casuals players or your average raider running around in class gear or any gear whatsoever for that matter. If they killed the mob that drops it they deserved whatever dropped, although when mobs drop stuff they should not be dropping (or at least not in their current state) I don't believe they are entitled to any of that loot. Neither am I, before you go at me for being elitist again. I don't deserve class gear for killing these named mobs in MMIS and neither do you, not until they fix the mobs anyway. That is what I believe, you obviously disagree with me and think the easy mobs - and they're called easy not because they're easy for the uber raiders but becaus they're easy compared to ANY other EoF mob - should drop the best instance gear. That is where we disagree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/No i dont , as i said just because they are easy it doesnt mean they shouldnt drop there intended loot surely you can see what i mean ? Look at the history of new expansions and raid zones , how many times have soe had to tweak the zones ? and during that time how many HC guilds only explioted the mobs for the loot ? now just because other non-hc raid guilds can expliot it this time it doenst make it any different to the last times does it ? if it was just HC raid guilds who could exploit MiS loot would this entire thread exist ? seriously ? no and you know it wouldnt because those guilds would be re-zoneing as fast as they could to get the discos and loot over and over but thats a different issue.  And please dont think for one second im saying thats what you would do its just what past experiences have brought us is all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if you could write something sensible without having to call me a whiny HC raider sob every other sentence, lets try again shall we?</DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>/Sorry for the Generalistic comments i know most of my comments dont apply to most HC raiders.  Hope this thread made a bit of what im trying to say a little more constructive and not an attack on HC raiders :smileywink: and again the issue is 2 things 1) EH loot tables need changing and 2) Mis Mobs need beefing up a little </FONT></P></DIV>

[shamefu11]

<div></div><div></div> I AM GOING TO USE SMALL WORDS TO MAKE THIS EASY. YOU MUST HAVE WOLFSBANE TO KILL MAYONG THIS DROPS OFF OF WOUSHI, THE BOSS IN EH, THEREFORE EH MUST BE CLEARED TO GET TO MAYONG BEING DEAD. If it was made to be the otherway around, Mayong would drop Dragonbane or something.... to make Woushi killable, but well meh, uhm, he doesnt. and if you worked your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] of spending 4 hrs a night trying to kill a mob, to finally do it, get loot, and then 5 minutes later see the same loot linked off a 2 grpable mob, wouldnt you be [Removed for Content]? kinda like if you orked yer tradeskilling to 70 in 3 months, every spare minute u had, to see someone exploit and be at 70 instantly? thats kinda how us hardcore raiders feel right now. we arent being elitist /  against casuals, but this is just not making raiding worth while, and its sad cos its something i enjoy, (when i say raiding i mean end game content, EH for example) <div></div><p>Message Edited by shamefu11 on <span class="date_text">01-09-2007</span> <span class="time_text">04:07 AM </span></p> <p><span class="time_text"> </span></p> <p><span class="time_text">and Dark YES i understnad when a casual gets an amazing item they cream their pants, and never wash that set of underwear again... BUT if you want this item, work for it... it should mean something, not hey, MMIS is dropping nice things, and any grp of 24 newbsause peeps can clear it, lets go. </span></p> <p><span class="time_text">and yea, we can prolly 2 grp tarinax, why? cos SoE dumbed down KoS so much, the hardest mob in KoS frontal now hits for under 4k... </span></p> <p><span class="time_text">GG SoE </span></p><p>Message Edited by shamefu11 on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:10 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<DIV> <HR> shamefu11 wrote:<BR>  I AM GOING TO USE SMALL WORDS TO MAKE THIS EASY.<BR><BR>YOU<BR><BR>MUST<BR><BR>HAVE<BR><BR>WOLFSBANE<BR><BR>TO <BR><BR>KILL<BR><BR>MAYONG<BR><BR><BR>THIS DROPS OFF OF WOUSHI, THE BOSS IN EH, THEREFORE EH MUST BE CLEARED TO GET TO MAYONG BEING DEAD. <BR><BR>If it was made to be the otherway around, Mayong would drop Dragonbane or something.... to make Woushi killable, but well meh, uhm, he doesnt.<BR><BR>and if you worked your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] of spending 4 hrs a night trying to kill a mob, to finally do it, get loot, and then 5 minutes later see the same loot linked off a 2 grpable mob, wouldnt you be [Removed for Content]? kinda like if you orked yer tradeskilling to 70 in 3 months, every spare minute u had, to see someone exploit and be at 70 instantly? thats kinda how us hardcore raiders feel right now.<BR><BR>we arent being elitist /  against casuals, but this is just not making raiding worth while, and its sad cos its something i enjoy, (when i say raiding i mean end game content, EH for example)<BR> <P>Message Edited by shamefu11 on <SPAN class=date_text>01-09-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:07 AM<BR></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><BR></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>and Dark YES i understnad when a casual gets an amazing item they cream their pants, and never wash that set of underwear again... BUT if you want this item, work for it... it should mean something, not hey, MMIS is dropping nice things, and any grp of 24 newbsause peeps can clear it, lets go.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>and yea, we can prolly 2 grp tarinax, why? cos SoE dumbed down KoS so much, the hardest mob in KoS frontal now hits for under 4k...<BR></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>GG SoE<BR></SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by shamefu11 on <SPAN class=date_text>01-09-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:10 AM</SPAN><BR> <P> <P> <HR> <BR>YES but you dont need the wolfsbane to zone into MiS or kill the other nameds right ? so by clearing EH you get rewarded with the ability to kill Mayong , its no difference between guilds doing labs upto veymn or Lycum up to Vellucide is it surely ? the fact that you can kill mayong and they cant isnt that reward enough ? <P></P> <P>and seeing a casual cream there pants is something i really dont want to see lol EWWWWWWW</P> <P>and why was tari nurfed you think ? so that other casuals can take him down for there claymore methinks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P></DIV>

[s]

<DIV>If I have to chose between giving anyone the opportunity of abusing the poor quality of this zone to its full extent by farming unearned class gear as often as possible OR see the loot temporarily removed or moved onto more difficult mobs I'd pick the latter any time, any day. Just because similar things happened before and got exploited before doesn't mean it's ok to say therefor it should also be possible now. That way you'll never see any improvements and this will happen again and again and again..</DIV>

[Rezikai]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>I AM GOING TO USE SMALL WORDS TO MAKE THIS EASY.<BR><BR>YOU<BR><BR>MUST<BR><BR>HAVE<BR><BR>WOLFSBANE<BR><BR>TO<BR><BR>KILL<BR><BR>MAYONG<BR><BR><BR>THIS DROPS OFF OF WOUSHI, THE BOSS IN EH, THEREFORE EH MUST BE CLEARED TO GET TO MAYONG BEING DEAD.<BR></FONT></P> <HR> <P>ummm  ... not trying to get too deep into the bickering in this ...but  you can also get the wolfsbane if you have a healer that went Tunare...</P> <P>the quest zones you into a non-aggro instance of Emerad Halls, and you can get the wolfsbane in there while on that part of the quest...  (its harvested or given if i remember  idk if Woushi drops it when it dies.. only SD would know  :smileytongue: )</P> <P>oh.. and Second Dawn killed mayong before Woushi.. so .. i dont know if the wolfsbane from that is required to kill him... i could be wrong on that... but since i havent ever killed him i dont know his "leet strats"... but Wuoshi did come 2nd ... so im thinking they are doing the progression correctly.</P> <P>Message Edited by Porkchop133 on <SPAN class=date_text>01-09-2007</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:05 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Porkchop133 on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:05 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sro wrote:<BR> <DIV>If I have to chose between giving anyone the opportunity of abusing the poor quality of this zone to its full extent by farming unearned class gear as often as possible OR see the loot temporarily removed or moved onto more difficult mobs I'd pick the latter any time, any day. Just because similar things happened before and got exploited before doesn't mean it's ok to say therefor it should also be possible now. That way you'll never see any improvements and this will happen again and again and again..</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>/now on that point you have my 100 % agreement , its never right and has never been right and will continue to never be right /shrug its just what new xpansions and bugs bring. Think of the number of times an encounter has bugged what does the guild do :-</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>1) Think hmm hang on legs /bug it and leave</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>2) Kick the crap outta x mob and get leet loot </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>and number 2 will always be the way to go , people dont see it as a bug or exploit when there the ones doing it mate , but yes its NEVER right EVER but will always happen so what do we do ? we just wait for soe to hotfix it like they usually do /shrug and yes the whole improvement sysyem is then knackered right from the offset just exactly the same as relic when most relic peices were better than named drops makes you think whats the point ?</FONT></P> <P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Porkchop133 wrote:</P> <P>could be wrong on that... but since i havent ever killed him i dont know his "leet strats"... but Wuoshi did come 2nd ... so im thinking they are doing the progression correctly.</P> <P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>If thats the case then the whole argument about EH neeeding to be cleared before MiS would appear incorrect would it not .. could someone from SD confirm that you took out mayong before wooshi ?</FONT></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Porkchop133 wrote:<BR> <P>oh... and wheres Second Dawn w/ the Loot/death Pics of Woushi... we want to see :smileyvery-happy:</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><A href="http://www.secondawn.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3781" target=_blank>Wuoshi Down! World Wide First!  (SD Site~ News)</A><BR></DIV>

[arieste]

<P>Small words:</P> <P>YOU.  DO. NOT. NEED.  TO. HAVE.  WOLFSBANE. TO. KILL.  THE. FIRST. FIVE. MOBS. IN. IS.  OR. TO. ENTER. IS.</P> <P>Progression is increasing difficulty of encounters.  So if you had 3 zones, progression would mean an Easy, Medium and Hard zones.  IS = Easy, FTH = Medium, EH = Hard. (Contested = Extra Hard.)  </P> <P>How is this not progression?</P> <P>Please don't give me your BS about wolfsbane, you couldn't give a dead rat's floppy tail about lore progression, so don't pretend like you do. </P> <P>You think you are entitled to more and better gear because you raid 8 days a week?  Well, guess what, you will ALWAYS have more and better gear than the people like me that raid 2 days.  Because we will never kill contested, we will not kill mayong for the next 2 months, we will not kill Wuoshi for the next 2 months.  No matter how much gear drops, you will always have more and better, your guild will always be better equipped and you will always have it first.  Please stop [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about the fact that people who don't devote their whole life to the game are still able to get a piece or two of shiny gear, especially when it's gear that you would've upgraded twice by the time we even get a look at it.</P> <P>(TBH, there were some really nice jewelry pieces that we were getting in IS a lot prior to them adding class armor, I would have much preferred those over a couple of piece of crap armor that is more likely to get transmuted than worn anyhow, but that is another story, and others in my guild seem to want theirs...)</P>

[s]

<DIV>SD killed Mayong before Wuoshi, twice if I'm correct. You can try as long as your stash of wolfsbane goes. It uses one per half-decent pull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can get them from the tunare god quest. This can be abused but after we asked devs they stated that abusing this was considered an exploit so we're not doing it. We are out of wolfsbanes right now so the only way to get this mob down anytime soon is by clearing EH or using alts that haven't done this quest before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sucks but it should be this way. IMO the tunare quest should never have given wolfsbane at all, but maybe some textual hint at that more was needed to kill mayong.</DIV>

[Exill]

<div><blockquote><hr>DarkMirrax wrote:<div></div> <p><font color="#ffff00">If thats the case then the whole argument about EH neeeding to be cleared before MiS would appear incorrect would it not .. could someone from SD confirm that you took out mayong before wooshi ?</font> </p><hr></blockquote>I don't really want to get into this arguement but I will give my 2 cents.I think the original intent was to make Inner Sanctum harder then Emerald Halls. There are several items that can be obtained in Wuoshi's area such as special vampire steaks and other items that were probably supposed to be used in order to defeat Mayong and possibly other bosses in Inner Sanctum.However, Inner Sanctum ended up turning out to be a lot easier then Emerald Halls. Now we have Inner Sanctum which is significantly easier then Emerald Halls (intentional or not) with the same, if not better loot.Yes, Mayong died before Wuoshi. Take it as you will.</div>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Exill wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>If thats the case then the whole argument about EH neeeding to be cleared before MiS would appear incorrect would it not .. could someone from SD confirm that you took out mayong before wooshi ?</FONT><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I don't really want to get into this arguement but I will give my 2 cents.<BR><BR>I think the original intent was to make Inner Sanctum harder then Emerald Halls. There are several items that can be obtained in Wuoshi's area such as special vampire steaks and other items that were probably supposed to be used in order to defeat Mayong and possibly other bosses in Inner Sanctum.<BR></DIV> <DIV><BR>However, Inner Sanctum ended up turning out to be a lot easier then Emerald Halls. Now we have Inner Sanctum which is significantly easier then Emerald Halls (intentional or not) with the same, if not better loot.</DIV> <DIV><BR><BR>Yes, Mayong died before Wuoshi. Take it as you will.<BR></DIV> <P><BR></P> <HR> <BR><FONT color=#ffff00>ty exill and good job on wuoshi guys fantastic effort by SD :smileyvery-happy: so the progression seems a bit skewered now , i wonder if a dev could come and just post a quick progression chart for us just to say if there is in fact a specific order ?</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Mycka]

<div></div>Let's see...Tender of the Seedlings:- Fairly hard named in EH- Few guilds worldwide killed him- Drops fabled set gearALL named in Inner Sanctum (minus Mayong):- Extremely easy- Most guilds worldwide killed them- Now drop fabled set gear, sometimes the same piece as the tenderThese are all facts.Why are people arguing against them? What makes some people think it's normal? It's obviously not, I don't care if Inner Sanctum named are hard for your guild, they shouldn't be dropping the same items as the tender or any other named that are comparable in difficulty, because they are FAR from being as hard as them. They should either be made at least as hard as the Tender and THEN be given their new loot table with fabled set gear, or not being changed in difficulty and only having their own decent loot table, just not as good as the fabled set gear, while maybe a bit better than what it was before this patch. SOE just did things in the wrong order and it totally killed the whole progression (which was already not that great in the first place but at least there was some kind of progression). This new change makes absolutely no sense. Patch the whole thing or don't patch at all. Finish something before releasing it, for once.Even though I doubt deleting all loots made in IS since the last patch is gonna be done (unfortunately), a fix is needed ASAP, this is not a whine, this is common sense. If all the named in IS, with their current difficulty (if I can call that difficulty), are dropping fabled set gear, and if it's intended to be that way, what should the avatars be dropping then, mythical set gear??Fix it please SOE, thanks.

[Zelkova]

<div></div>This topic is about the wrong zone, period. The loot in EH, among other things about EH, needs to be improved. It would seem that EH is overall a screwed up zone... buggy, difficult and tiring to clear and devoid of "appropriate" rewards for doing so. As for the Wolfsbane, lore aside the whole thing was poorly implimented (especially the Tunare quest) and IMO should just be scrapped, unless Mayong is dropping better loot then Woushi then who cares... people who can't kill Woushi will be clearing IS while never being able to kill the elusive Mayong Mistmoore, oh noes! If it was like this with every boss it might be cumbersome but it's just one, relax people! And let's be real (see I read the topic title), not being able to kill a mob without killing another first is true progression. The new sets being the Holy Grail of the expansion I feel is a misconception, they are probably supposed to be similar to the KoS sets. In the case of KoS sets, you could get most pieces fairly easily with some being rarer, or only dropping from certain mobs. They've made some of the new set pieces easy to get and some "rare" (not necessarily in appearance but limited to specific, more difficult mobs) so that even with good luck the average joe will NEVER complete a set. But most raiders will be able to see a little bit of it. Neither of the KoS sets were the best gear available either, I have six pieces of each my KoS sets and I can honestly say I never wear more than 2 from either set at the same time, and usually I'm only wearing my relic legs for the effect and Excarnate gloves cause no better bruiser gloves even exist in KoS. Most of the instance bosses and ALL of the contested offer a ton of loot that's a lot better than any of the sets are, so while a lot of people have the sets, the top raiding guilds are still the ones with the best gear.  What was the only problem? That people could farm relic <b>everyday by abusing lockouts</b> and <b>only killing trash</b>, that's what... but this whole system has been<b> completely left out</b> of EoF. Relating that problem to the situation we have in EoF is unintelligent, just to put it nicely. Some of you want proof that the sets were supposed to be dropping in Inner Sanctum. Well isn't the fact that it's dropping there proof enough? Personally, I want proof that the sets were supposed to be the end-all be-all of EoF because I'm not buying it. And I don't think the lower-tiered guilds having a few pieces is a problem. The real problem is that the most difficult raid zone is buggy and dropping junk, isn't it? It seems some are getting fed up with waiting for EH to get fixed and demanding judgement be brought down upon the less difficult zones! Anyway, if the new set gear was the best stuff in the game, it wouldn't be dropping from non-boss instance mobs at all, plain and simple. Some of the nicest [known] stuff in EoF comes from quests and heroics, or x2 mobs in mistmoore castle who you don't even need to be in a raid to kill! Boss / contested loot will (should) be the best and most highly sought after loot. We don't even know that it is or isn't yet. But until we do, anyone who says "the best loot is dropping in IS" is full of it. And SOE has proven in the past that if loot completely sucks they can give it a boost, and I think that's all that's needed for EH after the bugs are fixed. And just an observation... "as a community" there seems to be a roughly equal amount of discontent and approval for this change. (that is, in this particular topic <span><span>:smileytongue:</span></span>)<div></div><p>Message Edited by brekehan on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:46 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Myckael wrote:<BR> Let's see...<BR><BR>Tender of the Seedlings:<BR>- Fairly hard named in EH<BR>- Few guilds worldwide killed him<BR>- Drops fabled set gear<BR><BR>ALL named in Inner Sanctum (minus Mayong):<BR>- Extremely easy<BR>- Most guilds worldwide killed them<BR>- Now drop fabled set gear, sometimes the same piece as the tender<BR><BR>These are all facts.<BR>Why are people arguing against them? What makes some people think it's normal? It's obviously not, I don't care if Inner Sanctum named are hard for your guild, they shouldn't be dropping the same items as the tender or any other named that are comparable in difficulty, because they are FAR from being as hard as them. They should either be made at least as hard as the Tender and THEN be given their new loot table with fabled set gear, or not being changed in difficulty and only having their own decent loot table, just not as good as the fabled set gear, while maybe a bit better than what it was before this patch. SOE just did things in the wrong order and it totally killed the whole progression (which was already not that great in the first place but at least there was some kind of progression). This new change makes absolutely no sense. Patch the whole thing or don't patch at all. Finish something before releasing it, for once.<BR><BR>Even though I doubt deleting all loots made in IS since the last patch is gonna be done (unfortunately), a fix is needed ASAP, this is not a whine, this is common sense. If all the named in IS, with their current difficulty (if I can call that difficulty), are dropping fabled set gear, and if it's intended to be that way, what should the avatars be dropping then, mythical set gear??<BR><BR>Fix it please SOE, thanks.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What a crazy argument , when trash in kos drops relic ? labs was the easiest of the kos raid zones yet some of the nicer gear still drops there even though its easy FACT</P> <P>personally i think that the new set gear is just the EoF equivalent to say nemesis or relic gear with the true rare gear still awaiting discovery.</P> <P>As Barah posted the real issue here and ill say it again is the loot in EH</P><p>Message Edited by DarkMirrax on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:50 PM</span>

[Zelkova]

<div><blockquote><hr>Myckael wrote:<div></div>Let's see...Tender of the Seedlings:- Fairly hard named in EH- Few guilds worldwide killed him- Drops fabled set gearALL named in Inner Sanctum (minus Mayong):- Extremely easy- Most guilds worldwide killed them- Now drop fabled set gear, sometimes the same piece as the tenderThese are all facts.<b>Why are people arguing against them? </b><hr></blockquote>Because they have a different perspective? Why are you asking questions with stupidly obvious answers?Most people don't feel the sets should be an exclusive item. And yet aside from that, they still are simply because the full sets are not obtainable without basically killing every instanced mob in EoF. Both parties should be happy.As for the difference difficulty between the zones... well yeah, it pretty much sucks doesn't it. But you're barking up the wrong tree.</div>

[Maelakai]

<div><blockquote><hr>Exill wrote:<div>There are several items that can be obtained in Wuoshi's area such as <b><font color="#ffff00">special vampire steaks</font></b></div><hr></blockquote>LOL.What kind of sauce would you put on a vampire steak?  I like A1 myself!Anyways, on a serious note.  Gratz guys, that zone is certainly a testiment to the dedications of the SD players.  Well deserved world wide first!I've already said my piece about the itemization in MMIS vs. EH and I think it's been stated enough.  Regardless of whether the guild is 'casual' or 'hard core' the fact remains that MMIS is supposed to be the end zone for EoF (end ZONE), as is evidenced by the items discovered by Second Dawn on L3 of Emerald Halls.  I can't believe this is even being disputed.If MMIS is supposed to be the 'end zone' than SoE has some serious work to do in order to bring up the difficulty level in there.  We cleared to Mayong our first time in, wearing all KoS gear and not having a freaking clue what we were doing.  Granted, we're not a casual guild, but progression wise you can't tell me that's intentional and working as intended.The nameds in EH are tremendously more challenging than anything (save Mayong) in the sanctum, yet they drop some of the worst loot in the game.  Itemization is not working, and SoE needs to look at this ASAP.DraydinDefiler.<a href="http://chaoticlegion.guildportal.com" target=_blank>Chaotic Legion</a>.Kithicor</div>

[Yerma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> brekehan wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Myckael wrote:<BR> Let's see...<BR><BR>Tender of the Seedlings:<BR>- Fairly hard named in EH<BR>- Few guilds worldwide killed him<BR>- Drops fabled set gear<BR><BR>ALL named in Inner Sanctum (minus Mayong):<BR>- Extremely easy<BR>- Most guilds worldwide killed them<BR>- <STRONG>Now drop fabled set gear, sometimes the same piece as the tender</STRONG><BR><BR>These are all facts.<BR>Why are people arguing against them? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Is the bolded statement true because afaik the same exact piece does not drop off those 2 mobs. Same peice = ranger set shoulders vs ranger set shoulders. NOT ranger shoulders vs templar shoulders. <BR><BR>Imho just fix the lag all over EOF and make the mobs in MMIS harder. Somehow i don't think soe intended these mobs to die so quickly especially when scott said it was intended for the hardest zone to require full AA, full adornment and new gear. </P> <P>So what does this leave unkilled on instanced mobs? RUMBLER?</P><p>Message Edited by Yerma on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 AM</span>

[Habita]

no inner sanctum named except mayong should drop set items (this isn´t relic!). no casual raider should have more than 1 or 2 pieces of set gear.mayong should drop items for woushi, not backwards.no one cares about beta times, when EH was easyer than IS. the add on is released, it´s soe´s problem, not our´s.i know there are always a lot of opinions, but sorry, this is right, rest is wrong. <div></div>

[Pimpfrog]

Hey any mods out there? I am curious as to why my post on this thread was deleted? I said nothing offensive , not even close to it.

[vladsamier]

<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>YES but you dont need the wolfsbane to zone into MiS or kill the other nameds right ? so by clearing EH you get rewarded with the ability to kill Mayong , its no difference between guilds doing labs upto veymn or Lycum up to Vellucide is it surely ? the fact that you can kill mayong and they cant isnt that reward enough ? </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>No, it is not...IF there is any sense of progession, why does the first 5 name in Inner Sanctum just as easy if not easier then any KoS raid mob and the final name in the zone is supposed to be the 'final' boss of all the EoF instances. It just does not make sense why the entire zone (except mayong) can be done with a bunch of people that paypal'ed their accounts while they are blindfolded and hands chopped off if this is indeed the 'end' instance in this so called "progession"</FONT><BR></DIV> <P></P> <P>and seeing a casual cream there pants is something i really dont want to see lol EWWWWWWW</P> <P>and why was tari nurfed you think ? so that other casuals can take him down for there claymore methinks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>The names in inner sanctum minus mayong is about the difficulty of the new tarinax.... </FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>Message Edited by vladsamier on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:01 PM</span>

[Eileithia]

<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN><STRONG>From the Test Update:</STRONG><BR>- Wuoshi will now only give out a single Tunarian Wolfsbane, rest assured that there are still other sources of Wolfsbane in the world.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN>So I'm guessing there will be another source of Wolfsbane put in the world outside of EH? If that's the case they don't need to change the progression from MMIS to EH for difficulty if you don't have to do EH to kill Mayong?!?</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN>Just speculating.</SPAN></FONT></P>

[Gungo]

<DIV>My guess is they stopped people from repeating the tunare quest to get additional wolfsbane. </DIV>

[Tauch]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div>My guess is they stopped people from repeating the tunare quest to get additional wolfsbane. </div><hr></blockquote>Bingo.</div>

[Illustrious]

<P>Seems to me that these "uber" raid guilds want mobs just at the perfect difficulty level where they can kill them and no one else can. If they cant kill them of course they complain that they are "impossible" (ignoring Lag or bugs which are a seprate and very real issue in many cases) but if they do kill them they are too easy and should be made harder so that no one else can.</P> <P> </P> <P>I do agree tho that the EH loot needs tweaked, from what ive seen its pretty poor compared with some other stuff including class stuff. If that loot was better that the class stuff or even if there was a second even better set that drop purely in there then that would work i think.</P> <P> </P> <P>The guild i am in is an average raid guild and we find the proggression quite good for us which i guess is quite good for many others. We are now up to the final mob in FTH, Up to Mayong in MMIS and in our 1 trip to EH we killed mistress of the veil but ran out of time and failed on some prince guy. CWM is of course dead but he was just starter raid anyways the Lockjaw of EoF or whatever really. But the thing is we took several weeks to get to this stage and we tend to do slightly better by killing 1 extra mob in zone or getting a mob further down and closer to death each trip in, so IMO the proggression is set up just right for us. There are many guilds out there that will never kill what even we have and of course there are many that take 99% of content very quickly, SOE or anyone cannot get it right for every grp of people they just gotta go with the averages.</P> <P> </P> <P>Regarding the class loots, i personally have no problem about the namers dropping them even the easier ones as long as the legs and BP stay on the uber mobs like now. </P> <P> </P> <P>However what may be a good idea is for the 2nd effect to only work with 6 items and not 5 that would mean that while many guilds could maybe get 5 items in a set they would get only the first bonus effect. This would leave the top end guilds that can kill Woushi and Mayong the only ones that could ever get the last 2 items and thus the last 2 effects. That way those top guilds can still get the chance to show off their e-peens with full sets and 3 effects while us mere mortals who do not raid every day could still get nice loot but would never get the full set.</P> <P> </P>

[Mycka]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>DarkMirrax wrote:</P> <P>What a crazy argument , when trash in kos drops relic ? labs was the easiest of the kos raid zones yet some of the nicer gear still drops there even though its easy FACT<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Trash mobs dropping relic in labs was totally wrong in the first place, I never liked it, and should have been taken away as well, but some people already had their full sets when most people learned about relic sets, and I guess it was too late. But it WAS a mistake, and it WAS absolutely ridiculous. And SOE just made the same mistake. Just with easy named instead of trash mobs. Well I'll admit that's a slight improvement, but still a mistake. So your argument is dead. Did you really use a mistake from the past as an excuse for this last patch? Let me laugh.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P></P> <P>brekehan wrote:</P> <P>Because they have a different perspective? Why are you asking questions with stupidly obvious answers?<BR><BR>Most people don't feel the sets should be an exclusive item. And yet aside from that, they still are simply because the full sets are not obtainable without basically killing every instanced mob in EoF. Both parties should be happy.<BR><BR></P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Shoulders are dropping from both the Tender, and some crap named mobs in Inner Sanctum that are not even a challenge for most pick up raids. I'm okay to accept other people perspectives, but in this case it's like saying that someone claiming "2+2=5" just has a different perspective. No, It's WRONG, not a different perspective. If there are people thinking easy mobs should drop the same items as harder mobs, they're wrong. But I guess people will make up any excuse they can so they can get some of the best loot without working hard for it. Just think about it, the loots you were rewarded for killing a challenging mob, are now basically given away to everyone, assuming they can kill mobs that are as easy as Vraksakin. It's lame, and wrong. And I'm sorry, it's not to be debated, unless you feel like showing off your lack of good sense.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yerma wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Myckael wrote:<BR> <BR>- <STRONG>Now drop fabled set gear, sometimes the same piece as the tender</STRONG><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Is the bolded statement true because afaik the same exact piece does not drop off those 2 mobs. Same peice = ranger set shoulders vs ranger set shoulders. NOT ranger shoulders vs templar shoulders.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What do you mean? ranger shoulders droping from an easy mob while the templar ones would drop from a hard mob for example? Let me doubt it, that would make it even worse.</P> <P>I'm not against improving some of the crappiest loots from the old tables in IS (some of them were really decent and would probably upgrade many people from pick up raids or casual raiding guilds), and even adding some new items, but giving them all a piece of the fabled set gear is not a good idea. That means for example that the second named on the right will now drop fabled set gear. This mob is the easiest x4 encounter in the zone, and a complete joke, something is definitely NOT right, I'm sorry. I'm OK with the Armor having a chance to drop a piece like boots, forearms or gloves, but that's about it. Until they are made harder (if it ever happens), their loot tables are not reflecting their difficulty and it's totally killing what was remaining of the raid and itemization progression in EoF (it's not like it was perfect before, it wasn't at all, but now it's completely inexistant).</P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Myckael wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yerma wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Myckael wrote:<BR> <BR>- <STRONG>Now drop fabled set gear, sometimes the same piece as the tender</STRONG><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Is the bolded statement true because afaik the same exact piece does not drop off those 2 mobs. Same peice = ranger set shoulders vs ranger set shoulders. NOT ranger shoulders vs templar shoulders.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What do you mean? ranger shoulders droping from an easy mob while the templar ones would drop from a hard mob for example? Let me doubt it, that would make it even worse.</P> <P>I'm not against improving some of the crappiest loots from the old tables in IS (some of them were really decent and would probably upgrade many people from pick up raids or casual raiding guilds), and even adding some new items, but giving them all a piece of the fabled set gear is not a good idea. That means for example that the second named on the right will now drop fabled set gear. This mob is the easiest x4 encounter in the zone, and a complete joke, something is definitely NOT right, I'm sorry. I'm OK with the Armor having a chance to drop a piece like boots, forearms or gloves, but that's about it. Until they are made harder (if it ever happens), their loot tables are not reflecting their difficulty and it's totally killing what was remaining of the raid and itemization progression in EoF (it's not like it was perfect before, it wasn't at all, but now it's completely inexistant).</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thats just the way it is no rhyme or reason to it. Set peices drop off almost every named from the second, third and final named in FTH on eveyr mob in MMIS and EH. They just have specific ties to certain drops. While the tender may drop templar shoulders a ranger shoulder may drop off the yellow named in MMIS. But you will not see the same shoulders on two different mobs.

[mikemcmodmi]

Interesting read.  Can you say progression and difficulty is completely broken lol.  If MiS is supposed to be the hardest zone in the game then EQ2 raiding is a complete joke.  I know nothing about designing games but how could they have messed up so badly?

[hoop]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> Interesting read.  Can you say progression and difficulty is completely broken lol.  If MiS is supposed to be the hardest zone in the game then EQ2 raiding is a complete joke.  I know nothing about designing games but how could they have messed up so badly?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is what happens when you have the developer who designed nearly every raid mob in EoF work on Vanguard right around the time EoF was launched...

[Gungo]

Which dev because There was a different developer for each raid instance.

[Cerulien]

I don't get why this poster and those supporting him would make all this effort to sweep away the crumbs that the devs give to the casual guilds. It is SET Armor. You only get the max benefits when you have the SET. Only the hardcore guilds are able to get the full SET.Quit worrying about other people's loot and play the freakin game.Oh, and your comment that "the community" is displeased with set pieces dropping from certain named should be more accurately described as "my guild and a few others" which are discontent. I think "the community" as a whole either a) likes being able to get a few set pieces even though they don't ever have 4+ hours at a time to complete a raid or b) doesn't care about what gear other people have, just their own.<p>Message Edited by Cerulien on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:51 AM</span>

[arieste]

<P>Why is everyone looking at this on such a small scale or with such a short sight ahead?</P> <P>Seriously, none of these people that think the drops are too common have responded to how long they think it would take to outfit 30 people in these sets.  </P> <P>How many people WW currently have a full set? Even the WW best guilds will not have 30 full sets of this stuff before the next expansion.  Just look at labs, the warrior shoulders drop off a ridiculously easy mob, what % of warriors have them?  We've had one drop in like 40 trips to labs.  It will only be worse for stuff dropping IS, because it's not dropping by archetype, but by CLASS.  </P> <P>Not to mention that afaik Legs, Chest and Head still drop only off hard mobs.</P> <P>EH loot does need looking at and one class' shoulders dropping from a vastly harder mob than another class' is ridiculous.  </P>

[hoop]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> arieste wrote:<BR> <P>Even the WW best guilds will not have 30 full sets of this stuff before the next expansion.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is definately not true

[Killerbee3000]

<div><blockquote><hr>hoopde wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> arieste wrote: <div></div> <p>Even the WW best guilds will not have 30 full sets of this stuff before the next expansion.</p> <hr> </blockquote>That is definately not true<hr></blockquote>that depends entirely on random [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s them or random loves them, but most likely they will get it......</div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>So I don't know what would concern me more.  The fact that MiS is completely broken from the looks of it or that with mitigation changes your raid doesn't get that much more powerful from any drops anyways.  DPS and healers get good bonuses from having a set but for tanks it really doesn't make a difference between having the set and not having the set.  The combination kills progression imo.</P> <P>What's the real difference between a nub raid and a hardcore raiding guild?  About 10k dps.  That's it.</P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Killerbee3000 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hoopde wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> arieste wrote:<BR> <P>Even the WW best guilds will not have 30 full sets of this stuff before the next expansion.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is definately not true<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>that depends entirely on random [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s them or random loves them, but most likely they will get it......<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>He may be correct considering Sd just killed woushi. It will take 4 months from now to get Aproximately 32 legs for them. This is without any duplicates. No matter how much the RNG loves them they will not get everyset w/o a single duplicate. This is also including the fact it drops 2 legs each time it is killed. If the next expansion is out around june/july this should be about right</P> <P>I am hoping to see a mythical off every Avatar. 8 mythicals on the true hardest mobs in game should set some form of progression.</P>

[Sausage101]

<DIV>And why is it so important that 30 people should have a full set of set gear anyway?  Everyone not having a full set just makes getting it a little more special.  You all also forget that many guilds on a given server will get duplicates.  Most likely, they will sell those duplicates.  Therefore, it may not take as long as many of you think for 30 people to get a full set anyway.  And most of the 7 set bonuses suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] compared to the 3 set and/or 5 set bonuses.  So no, a full set is not that much better than having 5 pieces of a set.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sausage101 on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:59 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sausage101 wrote:<BR> <DIV>And why is it so important that 30 people should have a full set of set gear anyway?  Everyone not having a full set just makes getting it a little more special.  You all also forget that many guilds on a given server will get duplicates.  Most likely, they will sell those duplicates.  Therefore, it may not take as long as many of you think for 30 people to get a full set anyway.  And most of the 7 set bonuses suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] compared to the 3 set and/or 5 set bonuses.  So no, a full set is not that much better than having 5 pieces of a set.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Sausage101 on <SPAN class=date_text>01-10-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:59 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It is not important, unless most guilds REALLY want a true progression. a True progression would require a near complete set of Level A armour to kill Level B mobs, a near complete set of Level B armour to kill level C mobs, etc. Ideally instance armour would be required to kill avatars. Is this how SoE made EoF. I doubt it. It seems to me specifically, items are found in these higher level instances required to kill the avatars. </P> <P>Well we are talking specifically best case scenario which is SD. To have 30 full sets in 4 months w/o a single repeated set. And seriously if YOUR server guilds decides to sell end boss loot. Then YOUR server guilds would have to deal with every  tom, diick, and jane with the end boss loot. Now some servers have multiple guilds who may be able to clear the entire expansion pack including mayong and woushi and get multiple copies of end boss loot and sell them all, but that scenario is fairly rare i suppose to happen before the next exp pack.  </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:33 AM</span>

[Illustrious]

<DIV> cant find the thread at the moment.. but i remember  they said the progression was</DIV> <OL> <LI>Clockwork Menace <LI>Freethinkers <LI>Mistmoore Inner Sanctum <LI>Emerald Halls <LI>Pumpkin Headed Horsemen <LI>8 Avatars</LI></OL> <P> </P> <P>I also remember this thread being posted in beta by a dev but tbh i really cba to look it up.</P> <P> </P> <P>Also why do one minute uber raid guild x say that half the class loot is crap and most wont get worn, then the next minute they whine like a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] because casual joe raiders get a chance to get some of the lesser pieces?</P> <P> </P> <P>Like i said make 6 items give the second effect and 7 the 3rd effect. That way only top guilds will ever get even close to the full value from the sets anyway because no casual raiders are likely to beat woushi or mayong any time soon..</P>

[Psykil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> Which dev because There was a different developer for each raid instance.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>His name is Dymus, it was recently rumored that he had a huge patch/fix for EH , and that he was fixing progression in zone along with difficulty and loot, but it seems as he was in the middle of it he was pushed onto another project, aka Vanguards. </P> <P>If this is true, which im sure it is.. than we should probably expect changes in EH sometime after the 29th of Jan. which is release date of that game.</P>

[vladsamier]

3 months... No fixes... Typical repsonse time on issues involving raiding... Remember the full raid xp bug? 6-9 months later it was finally fixed. Saying it will be fixed around the 29th is giving them too much credit.

[vladsamier]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Illustrious wrote:<BR> <DIV> cant find the thread at the moment.. but i remember  they said the progression was</DIV> <OL> <LI>Clockwork Menace <LI>Freethinkers <LI>Mistmoore Inner Sanctum <LI>Emerald Halls <LI>Pumpkin Headed Horsemen <LI>8 Avatars</LI></OL><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>3 and 4 are mixed up for sure... Wuoshi drops an item that helps you out with the Mayong Mistmoore fight in Mistmoore Inner Sanctum... *hint hint*<BR>

[jago quicksilver]

<div><blockquote><hr>vladsamier wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Illustrious wrote: <div> cant find the thread at the moment.. but i remember  they said the progression was</div> <ol> <li>Clockwork Menace </li><li>Freethinkers </li><li>Mistmoore Inner Sanctum </li><li>Emerald Halls </li><li>Pumpkin Headed Horsemen </li><li>8 Avatars</li></ol> <hr> </blockquote>3 and 4 are mixed up for sure... Wuoshi drops an item that helps you out with the Mayong Mistmoore fight in Mistmoore Inner Sanctum... *hint hint*<hr></blockquote>yeah, originally, MMIS was supposed to be the hardest raid zone, but its quite obvious that it didnt happen, which makes alot of people sad pandas... i almost thought that my Set gear was gonna mean something, like being fully fabled back in t5... that got shot down with putting Set gear onto mobs that are easier than the cube mobs in BM. Next time, please fix mob difficulty BEFORE the loot tables are revamped.</div>

[arieste]

<P>As far as basing "progression" theories on the lore thing, there was recently a DEV post (should be on first page of tracker) that pretty much confirmed that you don't get wolfbane "by accident" during the tunare quest, only that it shouldn't be repeatable.   The same post also said that there were "other sources" of wolfsbane in the world.  "Source<STRONG><U>s</U></STRONG>" as in plural, as in more than one, as in (likely) other than killing Wuoshi.</P>

[daboa]

<P>IMO every uber guild quit the game, that will show, the developers you guys really do meen bussiness.  Othe then just spamming there inbox with hate mail.  And it sure as hell will get rid of all the less mentionable that anoy most people.  seriously you don like it quit.  Its not a big deal it deosent effect the game, and all complaining deos is proove you either need to be raiding MiS more(maybee with alts seeing its so easy) or that your just trying to take an easy route to getting what you want. Thinking about yourself, (and i meen we might as well put most uber guild as 1 person seeing everyone in them act exactly alike, as if clones of each other) is never a good idea.</P> <P>But to add somethign constructive, instead of complaining you can go and farm inner sanctum easly enough instead of EH, then no one will be goign to EH, then the devs will wonder why, and the itemization will get changed.  By you coming here to put in your thoughts on this issue really deos nothing to help the process, over keeping you out of the game for more then a few min.  You want results you need to act, not petition. Standing around with a sign just prooves your worthless, acting on your believes prooves you care.</P> <P>But no one will actualy read this, but it still helps me feel better about less mentionables ruining this game.  Please do not take this as being uncivilized, as it quite far from it.  Its the most civilized way to argue, its called constructive critisism.  Seeing as argueing is a rather uncivilized thing the first place, you cant really expect people to be civilized.  </P> <P>let the picking apart begin</P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Psykil wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> Which dev because There was a different developer for each raid instance.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>His name is Dymus, it was recently rumored that he had a huge patch/fix for EH , and that he was fixing progression in zone along with difficulty and loot, but it seems as he was in the middle of it he was pushed onto another project, aka Vanguards. </P> <P>If this is true, which im sure it is.. than we should probably expect changes in EH sometime after the 29th of Jan. which is release date of that game.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Its possible SoE never released who was pulled to the vagaurd release team. Most senior devs stayed in EQ2. Dymus did develope EH, but the poster i was referring to somehow accredited him with designing every raid encounter in EoF. Which he didn't. Archonix designed FTH, Dymus EH, Mort designed equstirelle the corrupted, someone else designed menace etc. This is partly why difficulty across zones is hard to judge when multiple devs create multiple zones. </P> <P>Seriously the main issue is the named mobs in MMIS need to be jacked up. None of them have any real aoe's, any real special atks (minus the dumb final nuke aoe, which is Preventable)</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>01-11-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:57 AM</span>

[superdave]

gungo is correct. last time i looked soe provided server space and advertising vanguard not the development.

[Psykil]

I dont want to get into the whole vanguard issue, but I can tell you they are doing much much more than advertising, the source I got the information from is a good source, straight from the horses mouth. However it doesnt really matter much what they do to EH at this point, what needs to be adjusted is the difficulty in MMIS because thats where the issue is.

[Zelkova]

<div><blockquote><hr>Psykil wrote:<div></div>I dont want to get into the whole vanguard issue, but I can tell you they are doing much much more than advertising, the source I got the information from is a good source, straight from the horses mouth. However it doesnt really matter much what they do to EH at this point, what needs to be adjusted is the difficulty in MMIS because thats where the issue is.<hr></blockquote>So you're happy with EH? If so, can I get that in writing? <span>:smileysurprised:</span></div>

[Maelakai]

<div><blockquote><hr>brekehan wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Psykil wrote:<div></div>I dont want to get into the whole vanguard issue, but I can tell you they are doing much much more than advertising, the source I got the information from is a good source, straight from the horses mouth. However it doesnt really matter much what they do to EH at this point, what needs to be adjusted is the difficulty in MMIS because thats where the issue is.<hr></blockquote>So you're happy with EH? If so, can I get that in writing? <span>:smileysurprised:</span></div><hr></blockquote>We're happy with the difficulty level of EH, it's hard... it should be hard... it's the logical progression of T7.  But MMIS should be harder, since items required to complete the 'boss' drop of Woushi... progression is what we are arguing here, not whether EH is hard enough.DraydinDefiler.<a href="http://chaoticlegion.guildportal.com" target=_blank>Chaotic Legion</a>.Kithicor</div>

[Gungo]

<P>Again psykil is correct after eof was released. Quite a few coders/developers for eq2 was moved to vanguard to help them make  their release deadline. The majority of these were junior programmers, but i wouldn't doubt if they added a senior programmer such as dymus as well. This is not that uncommon though SoE does shift developement resouces around on games.</P> <P>I agree psykil thats the main issue, which is why loot doesnt bother me to much. Loot doesn't kill raid mobs it makes very little difference. I would really like to see MMIS be the top tiered zone it was ment to be. </P> <P>Right now they are mostly trying to deal with alot of database issues regarding rendering, lag, and hopefully the lag from raid mobs aoe's. If they fix that. Then mobs liek the gardener will be fixed. Then adjust all the named in MMIS, actually the trash is fine there now. Mostly the 3 vampires and the gargoyle, although you can make the tactician armour hit a bit harder. Then they need to make each bisected rumblers aoe's 75% damage of the rumbler and each trisected rumblers aoe ~50%+ of the damage of the rumbler. Then place Tunarian Palace (hopefully raid zone) some where in the difficulty of EH since it suppose to provide lore on Mayong Mistmoore. </P>

[Vorlak]

why cant you guys just stop crying and losing sleep over spilled milk... I could care less if a raid mob is easy or if it drops the uber of uber loots, its a game enjoy it or get lost.

[hoop]

It wasn't Dymus it was Roger

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maelakai wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> brekehan wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Psykil wrote:<BR> I dont want to get into the whole vanguard issue, but I can tell you they are doing much much more than advertising, the source I got the information from is a good source, straight from the horses mouth. However it doesnt really matter much what they do to EH at this point, what needs to be adjusted is the difficulty in MMIS because thats where the issue is.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So you're happy with EH? If so, can I get that in writing? <SPAN>:smileysurprised:</SPAN><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>We're happy with the difficulty level of EH, it's hard... it should be hard... it's the logical progression of T7.  But MMIS should be harder, since items required to complete the 'boss' drop of Woushi... progression is what we are arguing here, not whether EH is hard enough.<BR><BR>Draydin<BR>Defiler.<A href="http://chaoticlegion.guildportal.com/" target=_blank>Chaotic Legion</A>.Kithicor<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't buy this form of thought, since there is truly more then 1 mayong mistmoore.  And the fact the stakes in Eh are not necessary to kill mayong (instanced version).

[hoop]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vorlak wrote:<BR> why cant you guys just stop crying and losing sleep over spilled milk... I could care less if a raid mob is easy or if it drops the uber of uber loots, its a game enjoy it or get lost.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thats pretty closed-minded don't you think?  Telling people if you don't agree with how I think then leave?  Sounds like some pre-school [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to me.

[Computer MAn]

I don't buy this form of thought, since there is truly more then 1 mayong mistmoore.  And the fact the stakes in Eh are not necessary to kill mayong (instanced version).<hr>Its not really the stake that I believe they are refering to more as the wolfsbane (rumored to not come from here anyway) as well as the blooms that are harvestable and prevent Vampiric delvl when used.

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Computer MAn wrote:<BR>I don't buy this form of thought, since there is truly more then 1 mayong mistmoore.  And the fact the stakes in Eh are not necessary to kill mayong (instanced version).<BR> <HR> <BR><BR><BR>Its not really the stake that I believe they are refering to more as the wolfsbane (rumored to not come from here anyway) as well as the blooms that are harvestable and prevent Vampiric delvl when used.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>True but the contested version has a delevel as well. It is hard to tell which mayong is intended for this fight, since mayong was killed w/o the "needed" items from EH. it may well be both version benefit from killing woushi... Although personally i do beleive woushi was intended to be killed before mayong, its hard to say these stakes, blooms, and wolvesbane is needed to kill mayong when he was killed w/o them. I havent been able to see if the contested versions aoe is curable. Since when i did pull him the entire zone went into LAG mode and i went BOOM. <BR>

[Psykil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hoopde wrote:<BR> It wasn't Dymus it was Roger<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Im not on a Personal Name base with devs, but Im pretty sure Roger is Dymus, I can't say for sure tho.

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Myckael wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>DarkMirrax wrote:</P> <P>What a crazy argument , when trash in kos drops relic ? labs was the easiest of the kos raid zones yet some of the nicer gear still drops there even though its easy FACT<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Trash mobs dropping relic in labs was totally wrong in the first place, I never liked it, and should have been taken away as well, but some people already had their full sets when most people learned about relic sets, and I guess it was too late. But it WAS a mistake, and it WAS absolutely ridiculous. And SOE just made the same mistake. Just with easy named instead of trash mobs. Well I'll admit that's a slight improvement, but still a mistake. So your argument is dead. Did you really use a mistake from the past as an excuse for this last patch? Let me laugh.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Such arrongance , who says relic was/is a mistake .. is it NOT still dropping now you fool , just because YOU personally didnt like it SOE deemed it so and guess what .. its there game to do whatever they want not what YOU want.  Dont bring your personal dislike of relic into this just because you were wearing all your SHINY PREETY RELIC THAT BTW YOU ALSO GOT FROM TRASH first but hey dont let that could your judgement will you ? </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>so my point is you argue that relic was wrong even though you had a full set before others killing the same trash as you did hmmm hypocrit ; so lets just say your arguement is dead to.  Posts like that just show exactly what we mean when we says its ok for HC guilds to exploit it but not others so let me laugh at your stupidity for showing exactly what i meant.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>ok bye dont bash your ego on the way out will you</FONT>  </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Mycka]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarkMirrax wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Such arrongance , who says relic was/is a mistake .. is it NOT still dropping now you fool , just because YOU personally didnt like it SOE deemed it so and guess what .. its there game to do whatever they want not what YOU want.  Dont bring your personal dislike of relic into this just because you were wearing all your SHINY PREETY RELIC THAT BTW YOU ALSO GOT FROM TRASH first but hey dont let that could your judgement will you ? </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>so my point is you argue that relic was wrong even though you had a full set before others killing the same trash as you did hmmm hypocrit ; so lets just say your arguement is dead to.  Posts like that just show exactly what we mean when we says its ok for HC guilds to exploit it but not others so let me laugh at your stupidity for showing exactly what i meant.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>ok bye dont bash your ego on the way out will you</FONT>  </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Well first, I just got my last piece 2 weeks ago, and that's because I never really tried to get a full set since I had other pieces of similar quality that were dropping from named mobs, and when they added a timer so that farming relics non stop was no more possible, I still had yet to get my first one.</DIV> <DIV>So if you want to bash someone about it, you definitely picked the wrong person. And sadly, it makes you look like a fool. Although I'll try to remain civil and will assume you are not one, and quit with the name calling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Relics were and still are too easy to obtain, any pick up raid of 12 - 18 people can do it. This can't be anything else but a mistake from SOE when you can easily get a full set of a fabled armor with very decent stats just by killing trash mobs. If they thought it was a good idea, why didn't they do it again in EoF, giving trash mobs the fabled set gear. No, they gave it to the named instead, and at first it really seemed much better that way. Unfortunately in Inner Sanctum, the named are not any harder than the trash, so it's wrong to have them dropping fabled set gear until they are fixed (if it ever happens). I hope you can understand this as it's pretty obvious that something is wrong there.</DIV>

[Pins]

After seeing the 2 pieces of gear that dropped off the Avatar of Valor, I am going to say, wow this is completely horrible itemization. Those 2 pieces of gear are HORRIBLE compared to what you can get off the easy named in MIS.Congrats SoE on horrible itemization.

[hellfire]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR>After seeing the 2 pieces of gear that dropped off the Avatar of Valor, I am going to say, wow this is completely horrible itemization. Those 2 pieces of gear are HORRIBLE compared to what you can get off the easy named in MIS.<BR><BR>Congrats SoE on horrible itemization.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I concur the avatar loot is garbage considering it should imo blow away the set crap <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[Killerbee3000]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:After seeing the 2 pieces of gear that dropped off the Avatar of Valor, I am going to say, wow this is completely horrible itemization. Those 2 pieces of gear are HORRIBLE compared to what you can get off the easy named in MIS.Congrats SoE on horrible itemization.<hr></blockquote>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?????????????????????????????????????so, you want to tell me to just stay in zones like dt, is, fth and there's no reason to bother with avatars (not that we could kill them but just in theory) cause loot sucks?so what you basically saying is that avatar's (the supposedly hardest and therefore most rewarding) mobs have suck loot???????????if avatar loot is really as bad as it sounds from your post then your congrats soe on horrible itemization will get my vote as understatement of the year.......</div>

[Snarks]

<blockquote><hr>Psykil wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> hoopde wrote: <div></div>It wasn't Dymus it was Roger <hr> </blockquote>Im not on a Personal Name base with devs, but Im pretty sure Roger is Dymus, I can't say for sure tho.<hr></blockquote>definitely not<div></div>

[Gungo]

I was really hoping the avatars had at least 1 mythical a piece AND a 4xclass (not subclass set of armour). So  8 avatars 7 main item slots and 1 avatar could have a jewerly set.

[Sausage101]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> daboa wrote:<BR> <P>IMO every uber guild quit the game, that will show, the developers you guys really do meen bussiness.  Othe then just spamming there inbox with hate mail.  And it sure as hell will get rid of all the less mentionable that anoy most people.  seriously you don like it quit.  Its not a big deal it deosent effect the game, and all complaining deos is proove you either need to be raiding MiS more(maybee with alts seeing its so easy) or that your just trying to take an easy route to getting what you want. Thinking about yourself, (and i meen we might as well put most uber guild as 1 person seeing everyone in them act exactly alike, as if clones of each other) is never a good idea.</P> <P>But to add somethign constructive, instead of complaining you can go and farm inner sanctum easly enough instead of EH, then no one will be goign to EH, then the devs will wonder why, and the itemization will get changed.  By you coming here to put in your thoughts on this issue really deos nothing to help the process, over keeping you out of the game for more then a few min.  You want results you need to act, not petition. Standing around with a sign just prooves your worthless, acting on your believes prooves you care.</P> <P>But no one will actualy read this, but it still helps me feel better about less mentionables ruining this game.  Please do not take this as being uncivilized, as it quite far from it.  Its the most civilized way to argue, its called constructive critisism.  Seeing as argueing is a rather uncivilized thing the first place, you cant really expect people to be civilized.  </P> <P>let the picking apart begin</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You sir are a [Removed for Content].  I thought these forums were to discuss in game concerns people have.  Am I wrong?  Are we not supposed to bring up issues that we think are a problem?  We generally like the game.  We don't want to quit.  We're trying to help the game become better.  And denying ourselves content is the way we're supposed to get a dev's attention? They read these boards.  They don't keep tabs on guilds' lockout timers.  If you don't like what you read here, how about you stop visiting this thread. (See how I turned that moronic statement on you?)<p>Message Edited by Sausage101 on <span class=date_text>01-12-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 PM</span>

[le Rêveur]

<P>how many members a guild like dissolution have ? 30 or so. How many guilds post here to whine about stuff being too easy ?</P> <P>You guys represent less than 0.1 % of the playerbase. The same 0.1 % of the playerbase considering themselves as the only "raiders" of the community.</P> <P>The only ones that deserve decent loot and whine here everytime a new expansion is released.</P> <P>Now, how many guilds do actually raid 4/5 times a week for say 2h30, 3h ? You call them casuals. Yeah they got a life, but what they actually do as a guild is RAIDING. Those players are 100 times more numerous than you are and the raid part of the game IS designed for them.</P> <P>You can farm the crap off contested anytime you want since those guilds dont have time to invest in killing those. Well, you have yet to kill them heh.</P> <P>Now quit whining stuff is too easy, it isnt for those guilds and actually there is really a progression for them in the current state of the things.</P> <P>If instanced stuff is too easy for you l33t peoples, come on show us more WW 1st avatar kills or is l00t your sole interest in this game ?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by le Rêveur on <span class=date_text>01-13-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:09 AM</span>

[Sausage101]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> le Rêveur wrote:<BR> <P>how many members a guild like dissolution have ? 30 or so. How many guilds post here to whine about stuff being too easy ?</P> <P>You guys represent less than 0.1 % of the playerbase. The same 0.1 % of the playerbase considering themselves as the only "raiders" of the community.</P> <P>The only ones that deserve decent loot and whine here everytime a new expansion is released.</P> <P>Now, how many guilds do actually raid 4/5 times a week for say 2h30, 3h ? You call them casuals. Yeah they got a life, but what they actually do as a guild is RAIDING. Those players are 100 times more numerous than you are and the raid part of the game IS designed for them.</P> <P>You can farm the crap off contested anytime you want since those guilds dont have time to invest in killing those. Well, you have yet to kill them heh.</P> <P>Now quit whining stuff is too easy, it isnt for those guilds and actually there is really a progression for them in the current state of the things.</P> <P>If instanced stuff is too easy for you l33t peoples, come on show us more WW 1st avatar kills or is l00t your sole interest in this game ?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by le Rêveur on <SPAN class=date_text>01-13-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:09 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh, so we're not allowed to share our thoughts because of some number you pulled out of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?  It's not like casual guilds couldn't get this loot already.  It might take a little work but the nameds dropping set loot weren't all that hard in the first place.  Just takes a little work and everyone actually has to pay attention.  Sorry for thinking people should actually earn their loot.  Oh wait, no I'm not.

[Beragon]

<DIV>Fact ist, Inner Sanctum beside Mayong is far too easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes not only uba Guilds have earned to defet such mobs, but we want challange. Inner Sanctum isnt one, each Guild can do it, and SoE saying, about Setgear isnt true..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the Guilds want, is give the Mobs some power, so they are harder then FTH, nothing more. You have to earn your Gear, special Setgear. I dont care if Cusual, lower Raid guilds can kill them, but they need to earn it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, SoE anyway made a mistake, why not kept is like the old way. FTH + Mena for gearing and EH to beat woushi open up Inner, like DT...</DIV> <DIV>Poor SoE</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Illustrious]

<FONT color=#ffcc00>*** Gameplay ***<BR></FONT> <UL> <LI>Wuoshi will now only give out a single Tunarian Wolfsbane. <FONT color=#ff0000>Rest assured that there are still other sources of Wolfsbane in the world!</FONT> <LI>The cases where Sariah the Bloomseeker would not drop a chest have been fixed. <LI>The Mark of the Awakened trial zone no longer drops items from the global spell list. <LI>Objects and NPCs should now display faster once they are in visual range. <LI>A server stability issue that was mostly affecting international servers has been resolved.<BR></LI> <LI> <HR> </LI></UL> <P>So its confirmed that there are other sources of Wolfsbane than Woushi, hence Woushi is NOT required b4 Mayong Hence MMIS is not neccesarily supposed to be the be all and end all of instanced raid content. Im still 99% sure that the devs posted that EH was toughest instance during Beta but cant find it now (It may even have been on beta forum which i cant access now). If that was the case then content is roughly in line with that with the order being - Clockwork-FTH-MMIS-EH. </P> <P> </P> <P>Obviously it aint tough enough in the opinium of the top raid guilds but its plenty tough enough for the most part for my guild thats for sure, and my guild is prolly the Joe Bloggs semi casual raid guild 4/5 raids a week for 2-3 hours. SOE appears to be catering to this "average" raid standard for most of the instance content.</P> <P> </P> <P> Seen as reletively few people have beat mayong yet and only 1 guild beaten Woushi and 1 Avatar, i would suggest those guilds that complain at the ease of instance stuff spend more time trying to beat the really hard content that IS designed for them instead of complaining about content which many find a reasonable challenge. </P> <P> </P> <P>I have to agree Itemisation isnt great, in fact the Avatar loot pretty much sucks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and could really do with being looked at, but then again we get told time and time again by these guilds that they do it for the challenge and not the loot. In fact many say that the new content is fine to do with KoS loot, so again whats the problem?</P><p>Message Edited by Illustrious on <span class=date_text>01-13-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:50 PM</span>

[Snarks]

<div><blockquote><hr>Illustrious wrote:<div></div> <div></div><font color="#ffcc00">*** Gameplay ***</font> <ul> <li>Wuoshi will now only give out a single Tunarian Wolfsbane. <font color="#ff0000">Rest assured that there are still other sources of Wolfsbane in the world!</font> </li><li>The cases where Sariah the Bloomseeker would not drop a chest have been fixed. </li><li>The Mark of the Awakened trial zone no longer drops items from the global spell list. </li><li>Objects and NPCs should now display faster once they are in visual range. </li><li>A server stability issue that was mostly affecting international servers has been resolved.</li> <li> <hr> </li></ul> <p>So its confirmed that there are other sources of Wolfsbane than Woushi, hence Woushi is NOT required b4 Mayong Hence MMIS is not neccesarily supposed to be the be all and end all of instanced raid content. Im still 99% sure that the devs posted that EH was toughest instance during Beta but cant find it now (It may even have been on beta forum which i cant access now). If that was the case then content is roughly in line with that with the order being - Clockwork-FTH-MMIS-EH. </p> <hr></blockquote>Ok, where do I begin with this..?If there are new sources for wolfsbane in this game, they surely weren't there until this patch.  The only source for wolfsbane was the Tunare Diety quest. It has been posted many times that the progression was intended emerald halls -> inner sanctum. Infact I remember being told you weren't even supposed to be able to kill any vampires in IS until you kill wuoshi. This is only reinforced by the fact that you get items on 3rd floor EH clearly intended for killing IS named. Instead we have what is essentially an easily farmable "end-zone" that drops more loot than any zone currently in the game. It is also the easiest to get said loot.This is representative of the backwards progression people here are posting about. Why should people spend 2 days im Emerald Halls to get less loot than you get in 1.5 hours in Inner Sanctum? Even if you feel you have a case for your idea of "intended" progression, either way you look at it, it was done very poorly. But the evidence in the game clearly points to a EH->IS progression scheme that was horribly butchered shortly before release.</div>

[Kilaelya]

<P>As the thread title says, I'll keep it real. So, here's a reality check.</P> <P>Saying that the progression is messed up is NOT necessarily hard core raiders crying that casual raiders are getting the same loot. Progression effects everyone that raids, no matter if it's casual or hard core. </P> <P>Here, just open your eyes for a second and think about this. Inner Sanctum is pretty easy, even Mayong when you figure him out. It is very common for set pieces to drop off of the really easy named in the beginning of the zone. Right? Now that you realize that, and you should, think about a zone that is currently harder than Inner Sanctum; Emerald Halls. The named are pretty hard, and on my server alone only one guild has killed Tender and made it past the first floor. Those mobs drop the same, and even sometimes worse loot, than the easy mobs that are in Inner Sanctum.</P> <P>As a raider of any shape and size, you need to have things to look forward to, a flow to follow... progression. Why would anyone bother to work much in Emerald Halls when currently a much easier zone drops the same loot? Do you really want to be stuck to doing the same one or two zones with nothing else to bother to strive to? Do you really want Inner Sanctum to become something dull like Labs? I really hope you don't. And that's why people are complaining.</P> <P>At least one person on this thread got it:<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> Killerbee3000 wrote: <P></P> <DIV>you dont have to be in a top shot raiding guild to want a clear progression.....<BR>i'm in a rading guild... we havent beaten mobs like matron or mayong yet but<BR>i want a clear progression too, simply to have something to look forward too.....</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You cannot have harder mobs dropping loot equal to or less than easier mobs. It makes this game boring if you don't have progression. This is why Inner Sanctum dropping set pieces off the easy named is upsetting. I am really looking forward to this far in the future patch for EH, but what can they really do to it now with what they've done to the mobs in Inner Sanctum?</P>

[Pins]

What happened to this thread? Everything here was on topic for the topic relavent. It was about MIS dropping Fabled Set Gear, which is part of Itemization, which is part of overall Raid Progression. Yet now all the posts are gone.

[Rezikai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR>What happened to this thread? Everything here was on topic for the topic relavent. It was about MIS dropping Fabled Set Gear, which is part of Itemization, which is part of overall Raid Progression. Yet now all the posts are gone.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>hmmm seems some with friends in high places get to have certian opinions removed,... meh... or...</P> <P>a mod or Dev (or both) are EAGLES fans... and (possibly very inibriated...lol) decided they'd get a WIN for their side one way or another.... *snickers*</P> <P> </P> <P>-whimpers... i hear Mayong is a cleveland fan....  :smileyvery-happy:</P><p>Message Edited by Porkchop133 on <span class=date_text>01-14-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:37 PM</span>

[Goonch]

<P>I think a lot of people are missing the point.</P> <P>If things aren't going to change in terms of difficulty then Tender, Sariah, or any named for that matter in EH should not be dropping the same loot as any mob in FTH or IS, period.  </P> <P>Which means either a) knock up the difficulty in IS or b) Give EH loot worth going there for or IMO both.</P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goonch wrote:<BR> <P>I think a lot of people are missing the point.</P> <P>If things aren't going to change in terms of difficulty then Tender, Sariah, or any named for that matter in EH should not be dropping the same loot as any mob in FTH or IS, period.  </P> <P>Which means either a) knock up the difficulty in IS or b) Give EH loot worth going there for or IMO both.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>IMHO just remove the whole random named thing in EH. Leave all random named up all the time. Its a week reuse zone that takes over 4-12 hours to complete. (would be great if this zone had the option of saving the instance to continue, other then hoping the server doesn't reboot the next day) The overall loot in the zone will be better in EH if they did this. Not to mention the time vs reward many complained about. this will also solve the issue of one guild gettign an "easier" version then another. Also the issue of some class loot being random on random mobs while others are not.</P> <P>Then increase the difficulty of named in MMIS and fix the lag in all zones associated to certain aoe's. And adjust the rumbler to be killable by reducing the trisected rumbler aoe to be 60% as powerful and bisected to be 75% as powerful. </P> <P>Finally fix the avatar loot tables if you want to go w global avatar loot.. fine but it should containt some very nice loot. Not to mention it would be nice to see each drop a mythical. </P>

[mkd1200]

or just remove the wolfsbane component of the fight, make it completely not needed, and up the loot in EH.  that would solve some of the issues that people are not happy with.

[Illustrious]

<P>Fix the lag, leave MMIS roughly the same and sort out the bugged/imposible encounters in EH. EH is the hardest zone in game atm and thats a  afact so just keep it that way.</P> <P> </P> <P> EH loot prolly need some loving tho as guilds spending 3-4 days in there atm to finish zone is crazy for some of the crap loot. Saying that is a really nice 1 hander i saw drop there from floor 3 wish something sick like 91 DR so i guess is some real nice loot there alrready..just apears very rare.</P>

[mik]

<div></div><span></span><b>Finally fix the avatar loot tables if you want to go w global avatar loot.. fine but it should containt some very nice loot. Not to mention it would be nice to see each drop a mythical.</b>Imho, it would be nice if each avatar first kill plus pupmkin plus contested Mayong give 1 mythical drop just as turtle and matron. Then the time spent on them wouldnt be all wasted and more guilds will try them.Tesei, ranger of Defiant, Runnyeye<b></b><span></span><div></div>

[Judist]

<P>This thread is just funny... To think some people so firmly believe in the things they say here. It's like they honestly dont have a clue, and really <STRONG>dont</STRONG> have a second agenda. But alas, they do.</P> <P>It's KoS all over again. Guilds A. B. and C. kill Tarinax after a few tries... (mind you, these were the raid guilds who owned everything in DoF and spent lots of time gearing in Labs). Anyways once Tarinax is killed, <U>ALL THE SUDDEN</U> he's too easy, and SOE needs to make him harder. Why? I'll tell you.</P> <P> A. They already got their kill, why should they care if he's made harder.<BR> B. They cant flex e-peens if others have the same loot. Harla Dar was locked down for the longest time for the same reason... to prevent DT access. Guild A. didnt care if Guild X badly need Harla for the last update. They killed her anyways and every chance they could when she was still contested. Why? E-Peens. It was bad enuf to get her moved to an instance.</P> <P>We have yet to beat Tarinax, and were a casual raid guild. We havent killed any EoF raid zone named. This isnt a group of newbs, this is a "run of the mill" casual raiding guild. So all this progression BS is stupid. Progression is there for 80% of the other raiders in game, which are casual. Guilds who still do labs for one of the 2 or 3 raids they do a week.</P> <P>The ones who claim its too easy? What, are you thinking? Or are you?</P> <P> A. You are going from T7a to T7b. Your armor, weapons and jewelry (not to mention MONTHS of time to get fully mastered) is plenty for killing T7b mobs. Do you think a few extra resists, procs or stats is gonna make a big difference? Not for a top-end raiding guild for sure. It <STRONG>should</STRONG> be easy for guild who has killed all KoS has to offer. And yes some mobs in EoF <STRONG>should</STRONG> have the same difficulty as KoS mobs. Why????</P> <P> B. YOU IN THE SAME [Removed for Content] TIER!!! Had EoF been a T8 expansion upgrade, you would need to level, get more masters and obtain better gear to complete what you do now.  Never forget you hardly need to upgrade to complete EoF when you've had <STRONG>tons</STRONG> of time to farm the best T7a fabled.</P> <P> C. Your raid guild consists of 100% professionals. Players who know everything there is to know about their classes and mechanics. Players who can decipher strats on the fly and adapt better than the majority. This is NOT our fault that your good. Leave difficulty as it is. </P> <P>Really, same as KoS. All about the [Removed for Content] flexing... of course only "after" you kill the mobs. This isnt a cry about mobs being easy at all. It's a cry that other people get to obtain the same loot as you. And I'll bet <STRONG>real money</STRONG> that once the contested are figured out and killed, someone will /cry about them being too easy also. Why? E-Peens.</P> <P> </P>

[Sausage101]

<DIV>Have you ever been in MMIS?  Have you ever pulled a named in there? No? Then you have no clue what you're talking about.  Pickup raids are doing MMIS on my server with success.  FFS, PICKUP RAIDS!  If pickup raids can do more than your casual guild then yes, you are a bunch of noobs. And btw, no one called for Tarinax to be beefed up until he was nerfed.  If we beat a hard version of a mob, everyone else should have to too. </DIV>

[Judist]

<P>Wait, we (my guild) has never been to MMIS? Maybe you have no clue my friend. I said we havent killed any EoF named, that <STRONG>does not</STRONG> mean we havent tried. Making assumptions is not wise if you want to be taken seriously.</P> <P>Sure, we didnt kill the first named in MMIS on our first attempt in zone. Not everyone did. We had NO idea what to expect on zone-in so keep the newb crap to yourself. Few guilds <STRONG>did</STRONG> kill that first named on their initial exploration. How do I know? Uhh, look at the server discoveries.</P> <P>Now that everyone knows its easy (like we do now k-thx) then yes, he's getting killed by pickups. Do I mind? No, I dont have an [Removed for Content] to worry about. I'd rather worry about my real one than care about a newb who gets fabled. Good for him! I'm happy about it. I'm sure it made his day if not month getting a piece of EoF. </P> <P><STRONG>You</STRONG> on the other hand want it taken from him. Christ man.</P> <P>And if you deny my Tarinax fact, then you obviously dont remember what happened. He wasnt asked made stronger because he was nerfed, and dont think anyone will buy that BS. The moment the major guilds dropped him he was asked to be made stronger. And even tho the nerfs and changes didnt come right away, they kept Harla on lockdown for the same [Removed for Content] reason. E-Peenage. </P> <P>Who cares about your opinion anyways, I hit the topic on the mark. You want a bigger [Removed for Content] than the rest. You wanna sit in QH or EFP and show all the newbs your unique items. You want lesser fortunate players to think about how uber you must be. And every time you see someone else with the same item it makes you mad, because your no longer unique. </P> <P>Lets some of the less fortunate farm their 1 piece of EoF fabled. Just like the first named in Labs for the Class Legs. CLASS LEGS! Pickups could do that too! And that was a major piece. So let the guilds who can clear labs without a single death clear a few EoF zones to the end. And dont complain when other people win gear, it just shows us what your really concerned about. </P> <P>Size dose not matter in a video game...</P> <P> </P>

[Judist]

<P>Just a lil addition. Went into MMIC for the second time tonight, killed the 2 easiest names. Got 2 different EoF set shoulder pieces, 1 which rotted. Has issues that prevented going after Viswin this time around.</P> <P>Anyways, saw no problems with current difficulty. And considering the lockout, the type of drops and the chance of something rotting, theres nothing that would imbalance the game as it is now. 2 shoulders every week for a casual raid guild is fine by me. A long way from getting anything near a full set.</P> <P>And if someone wants to do a pickup raid and kill V'Tekla K'Zalk so <STRONG>one</STRONG> person can get shoulders, thats great. It's nothing like relic runs.</P> <P> </P>

[Snarks]

<div><blockquote><hr>BeatinGuts wrote:<div></div> <p>Just a lil addition. Went into MMIC for the second time tonight, killed the 2 easiest names. Got 2 different EoF set shoulder pieces, 1 which rotted. Has issues that prevented going after Viswin this time around.</p> <p>Anyways, saw no problems with current difficulty. And considering the lockout, the type of drops and the chance of something rotting, theres nothing that would imbalance the game as it is now. 2 shoulders every week for a casual raid guild is fine by me. A long way from getting anything near a full set.</p> <p>And if someone wants to do a pickup raid and kill V'Tekla K'Zalk so <strong>one</strong> person can get shoulders, thats great. It's nothing like relic runs.</p> <hr></blockquote>I'm glad you are happy with set pieces off the easiest isntanced epics in the expansion.Please explain to me how it is fair that some classes get their set pieces off these epics, while some get the<b> same slot</b> off some of the hardest names on the last 2 floors in Emerald Halls?It's not a problem that it's dropping in Inner Sanctum. The problem is that the progression is inconcievably messed up. This is not a casual vs. hardcore argument.This is concern why some people can get their set pieces effortlessly off farmed nameds after 2 minutes from zone-in while some people have to fight the hardest content in the expansion on their second day in Emerald Halls to get their piece.If Emerald Halls is going to drop set, then Inner Sanctum should <i>not</i>. If Inner Sanctum is going to drop set, then Emerald Halls should drop something better.Get it?</div>

[Judist]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm glad you are happy with set pieces off the easiest isntanced epics in the expansion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Hell yea I'm happy. Dont think for a SECOND that we didnt earn what dropped. And you trying to trivalize it reinforces my argument. If you ever had one piece of relic, then you know whats truely easy.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please explain to me how it is fair that some classes get their set pieces off these epics, while some get the<B> same slot</B> off some of the hardest names on the last 2 floors in Emerald Halls?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Never said it was fair. I never thought EH should even drop class set pieces. If EH is the premier EoF raidzone, it should drop items similar to DT... not "set" armor pieces but better alternatives. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Sad thing is, from the tone of this thread I saw that more people would rather have MMIS nerfed than have EH drop better gear. They would rather screw the casual raider from getting even 1 piece of EoF set gear. Thats my problem.<BR></FONT><BR>It's not a problem that it's dropping in Inner Sanctum. The problem is that the progression is inconcievably messed up. <BR><BR><FONT color=#ff3300>Conceivable, I before E "except" after C. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Anyways, why is it inconceivable? You start off with arms and work your way up to chest? Mobs DO get harder. Unfortunatly the arms can drop off harder mobs, when those harder mobs "should" drop better gear. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>But progression is there. The day every other piece becomes as easy to get as the arms, then you can claim progression is non-existant. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Get off the band-wagon and think about it yourself. Everyone is shouting progression when getting each respective piece gets harder and harder.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not a casual vs. hardcore argument.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Sir, you are ignorant. Everything about this thread screams "keep EoF set gear outta the hands of pickup and casual guilds".</FONT><BR><BR>This is concern why some people can get their set pieces <FONT color=#ff3300>"</FONT>effortlessly<FONT color=#ff3300>"</FONT> <FONT color=#ff3300>(casual?)</FONT> off farmed nameds after 2 minutes from zone-in while some people have to fight the <FONT color=#ff3300>"</FONT>hardest content<FONT color=#ff3300>"</FONT> <FONT color=#ff3300>(hardcore?)</FONT> in the expansion on their second day in Emerald Halls to get their piece.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>But like you said, this has nothing to do with casual vs hardcore huh....?</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>And stop calling it farming. If it takes a raid, if a named is killed, if only 1 person gets a drop AND you cant come back for 5 days, how the HELL is it farming?</FONT></P> <P>If Emerald Halls is going to drop set, then Inner Sanctum should <I>not</I>. If Inner Sanctum is going to drop set, then Emerald Halls should drop something better.</P> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>I agree that EH should drop BETTER than class sets. But oddly, thats not what this thread has been about. Thats not the major outcry here. The outcry was that casuals could get 1 of the 7 pieces in MMIS from a straightfoward mob... thus shrinking their precious little e-peens.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Get it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>I had it bro, now do you?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by BeatinGuts on <span class=date_text>01-21-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:17 AM</span>

[Nak]

Emerald Halls needs a loot revamp really badly.<div></div>

[Lleinen]

<DIV>But I love my sumptuous fur-lined booties! *cough</DIV>

[Mycka]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Sir, you are ignorant. Everything about this thread screams "keep EoF set gear outta the hands of pickup and casual guilds".</FONT><BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'd call that "Make pick up and casual guilds earn their loots".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This is concern why some people can get their set pieces <FONT color=#ff3300>"</FONT>effortlessly<FONT color=#ff3300>"</FONT> <FONT color=#ff3300>(casual?)</FONT> off farmed nameds after 2 minutes from zone-in while some people have to fight the <FONT color=#ff3300>"</FONT>hardest content<FONT color=#ff3300>"</FONT> <FONT color=#ff3300>(hardcore?)</FONT> in the expansion on their second day in Emerald Halls to get their piece.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>But like you said, this has nothing to do with casual vs hardcore huh....?</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Being casual doesn't mean you don't know how to play your class and how to kill mobs that are as easy as Vraksakin. If you find these mobs hard, it's not because you're casual, it's because you suck. There are really good casual players as well as really bad hardcore players. Difficulty has nothing to do with the amount of time you're playing. It will take you more real life time to get something done, but not more in game time, if you're good enough that is.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>I agree that EH should drop BETTER than class sets. But oddly, thats not what this thread has been about. Thats not the major outcry here. The outcry was that casuals could get 1 of the 7 pieces in MMIS from a straightfoward mob... thus shrinking their precious little e-peens.</FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is ridiculous how people have to bring the "e-peens" word each time they talk about guilds that know how to play. Earn your loot, end of story. We don't want to prevent you from looting the best gear in game, we want you to deserve it, you get it? Being casual is NOT an excuse, besides for the 2nd and 3rd floors of EH which makes EH a really long instance, but then you can still stay up in the zone until the next day, and there will also be a save system that will allow you to come back when you feel like it.</P> <P>Now if you want MMIS named to drop the fabled set, and EH named to drop better loots, why not, but it's basically the same as having EH named dropping fabled set, and MMIS named dropping loots that are good but not as good as the fabled set. Where's the difference? Besides overpowering players or not.</P>

[Goonch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm glad you are happy with set pieces off the easiest isntanced epics in the expansion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Hell yea I'm happy. Dont think for a SECOND that we didnt earn what dropped. And you trying to trivalize it reinforces my argument. If you ever had one piece of relic, then you know whats truely easy.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please explain to me how it is fair that some classes get their set pieces off these epics, while some get the<B> same slot</B> off some of the hardest names on the last 2 floors in Emerald Halls?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Never said it was fair. I never thought EH should even drop class set pieces. If EH is the premier EoF raidzone, it should drop items similar to DT... not "set" armor pieces but better alternatives. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Sad thing is, from the tone of this thread I saw that more people would rather have MMIS nerfed than have EH drop better gear. They would rather screw the casual raider from getting even 1 piece of EoF set gear. Thats my problem.<BR></FONT><BR>It's not a problem that it's dropping in Inner Sanctum. The problem is that the progression is inconcievably messed up. <BR><BR><FONT color=#ff3300>Conceivable, I before E "except" after C. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Anyways, why is it inconceivable? You start off with arms and work your way up to chest? Mobs DO get harder. Unfortunatly the arms can drop off harder mobs, when those harder mobs "should" drop better gear. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>But progression is there. The day every other piece becomes as easy to get as the arms, then you can claim progression is non-existant. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Get off the band-wagon and think about it yourself. Everyone is shouting progression when getting each respective piece gets harder and harder.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not a casual vs. hardcore argument.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Sir, you are ignorant. Everything about this thread screams "keep EoF set gear outta the hands of pickup and casual guilds".</FONT><BR><BR>This is concern why some people can get their set pieces <FONT color=#ff3300>"</FONT>effortlessly<FONT color=#ff3300>"</FONT> <FONT color=#ff3300>(casual?)</FONT> off farmed nameds after 2 minutes from zone-in while some people have to fight the <FONT color=#ff3300>"</FONT>hardest content<FONT color=#ff3300>"</FONT> <FONT color=#ff3300>(hardcore?)</FONT> in the expansion on their second day in Emerald Halls to get their piece.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>But like you said, this has nothing to do with casual vs hardcore huh....?</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>And stop calling it farming. If it takes a raid, if a named is killed, if only 1 person gets a drop AND you cant come back for 5 days, how the HELL is it farming?</FONT></P> <P>If Emerald Halls is going to drop set, then Inner Sanctum should <I>not</I>. If Inner Sanctum is going to drop set, then Emerald Halls should drop something better.</P> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>I agree that EH should drop BETTER than class sets. But oddly, thats not what this thread has been about. Thats not the major outcry here. The outcry was that casuals could get 1 of the 7 pieces in MMIS from a straightfoward mob... thus shrinking their precious little e-peens.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Get it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>I had it bro, now do you?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by BeatinGuts on <SPAN class=date_text>01-21-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:17 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No raider cares that the casual raiders are getting one piece of EOF class loot.  Don't give yourself so much credit.  There is no bandwagon.</P> <P>The point of this thread is to point out how ridiculous it is that the same loot that drops in EH drops off of those 2 names that you killed.  Nothing else.  People are spending hours to get to one named that drops loot that you can get to in 10 mins in inner sanctum.  That sir is why progression is messed up.  </P><p>Message Edited by Goonch on <span class=date_text>01-21-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 PM</span>

[Zelkova]

<blockquote><hr>Goonch wrote: <p>No raider cares that the casual raiders are getting one piece of EOF class loot.  Don't give yourself so much credit.  There is no bandwagon.</p> <p>The point of this thread is to point out how ridiculous it is that the same loot that drops in EH drops off of those 2 names that you killed.  Nothing else.  People are spending hours to get to one named that drops loot that you can get to in 10 mins in inner sanctum.  That sir is why progression is messed up.  </p><p>Message Edited by Goonch on <span class="date_text">01-21-2007</span> <span class="time_text">01:43 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Actually the point of the thread is this: "<font color="#ffff00">By making the gear this easy to get now imho severely degrades the value of the game for <font color="#ff0000">higher end</font> guilds</font>" and plenty have agreed with that point. So, looks like he was right? The "high end" guilds don't want anyone else touching their precious. And oh yes I'll be flamed for this... but there's nothing wrong with the set loot dropping off mobs ranging through different difficulties of content. It gives more reason to go to every raid zone, doesn't it? Unless you think each piece should drop off of bosses that take days of clearing to reach, wouldn't want to be a hypocrite would you? Or perhaps you want the "easy to get" set pieces to suck, but that would just make the whole set suck wouldn't it? The other loot should be adjusted to more adequately "reward" the difficulty of whatever zone it comes from, the way it was in KoS.. it was a fine concept that the sets were more easily obtainable but there were better alternatives depending on where you raided. The big flaws were that it was easily farmable because it dropped off trash and was broken down into Archetypes so you had a 1 in 4 chance of getting a piece you could use when relic dropped. But now the sets are much more difficult to obtain, minus only a few pieces, so why the complaining? This isn't relic, the new sets aren't "farmable", full sets are needed to really get the most out of them, there is no problem. Isn't that what the "high end" guilds wanted in KoS anyway, relic dropping off of named? (That is, of course, after they'd farmed full sets for their entire guild but nevermind that, right?) Now let's be real. I keep hearing "progression" and it makes me laugh because <b>there is no progression at all</b> <b>in EQ2</b>. Especially not with instances. The closest thing that exists even resembling it is DT access which is a joke. Yeah you were hoping for it, maybe it was promised (I dunno about that) but you didn't get it. All of EoF has been cleared in mostly KoS-equipped characters, and I seriously doubt what little EOF gear that was being used made any difference. Nothing is required to kill anything else, there's no locked zones, no access quests, nothing is required therefore no progression exists, get it? Zone progression has been squeezed right out of the entire game and if the vast majority of all access quests being removed isn't a good indication of that I'm not sure what is. Oh, Wolfsbane? Well we saw what a fantastic idea that turned out to be. The quested (!) item is purchasable from the broker now if I'm not terribly mistaken... yum, progression! I also keep hearing the set gear is the best loot in the game. Well, you just keep on believing that if you really want to. I can think of a few classes who might feel a bit differently but whatever. I<b>f you're too lazy to read all of the above, I'll summarize: </b>- There is no progression in this game. At all. I came in right after DoF and progression didn't exist, and I haven't seen any since. - EoF sets aren't the best loot in the game. Have you even seen any loot that drops outside of raid zones now? You can find better procs, better crit chance, damage bonuses etc elsewhere... less overall stats, maybe, but so what? The new sets fail to be the "godly uber lewt" some of you want it to be. - Emerald Halls needs to be improved, nerfing MMIS loot or upping it's difficulty won't change that. I personally don't care if I never get a piece of the new sets. I'll be playing another game before I see a full set at the rate they drop anyway. Wouldn't mind having the gloves since it's the only piece that immediately says "oooh, upgrade!" but whatever. You can make MMIS more difficult, too. Won't matter to me. Though I'm sure that isn't going to save from being accused of "wanting free loot for logging in" or something equally ridiculous.<div></div>

[Judist]

<P>Thank you Brekehan, your spot on. I get tired trying to explain things for the 5th time to some of these guys. And I still believe there is mob progression but yea your right, no real zone progression. Would like to have seen stronger access quests or better barriers for getting into the top 1-2 EoF raid zones (like DT).</P> <P>Anyways, I guess someone will always hate the fact my casual guild and some newbie pickup raids get a shot at looting 1 of the 7 EoF set pieces once a week. I guess players getting 1 of 7 pieces is unbalancing to them, (tho for some reason in KoS it was ok).</P> <P>Really is sad that because 1 mob is a straightfoward 1.3mil HP burn with no tricks, that all the sudden anyone who kills her didnt earn that chest. For those who honestly believe that... please delete all you relic and the class leg piece from the first named in labs (if you have them) and go re-earn armor some harder way.</P> <P>Otherwise, hope the devs make the gear that drops in EH better and on-par with its difficulty. From looking at the shoulder stats, they really shouldnt be dropping in the premier EoF zone.</P> <P> </P> <P>Edited to add... above someone said they wanted us to "deserve" our drop... Who are you do decide who deserves what in the game man? Until you reach dev status everything you say about that is just an [Removed for Content] whine. In fact, claiming others dont deserve stuff is the definition of [Removed for Content] whinage.</P> <P>Since day-1 in EQ, if you had a brain, got a raid together and killed the mob you <STRONG>deserve</STRONG> the drop. Dont go talking BS about you deserving anything more than anyone else. If you can kill it, you deserve the loot. The only time iis not ok is when a bug is used to manipulate the system for an un-earned kill. (cough: early Matron bug)</P> <P>So far, everyone in game deserves a very small chance of getting just 1 of 7 pieces if they put a raid together. The devs must have seen this is ok so deal with it.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by BeatinGuts on <span class=date_text>01-21-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:35 PM</span>

[Mycka]

<DIV>I get your point. And in fact it looks like we agree with each other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We both don't want the same quality of loot to drop from EH and MMIS. You talk about E-Peens, but you basically say the same things as me.</DIV> <DIV>Now my concern is, where are our "better than the fabled set" items then? You got yours with the fabled set gears, where are OURS? Besides for a few exceptions, nothing is really better than the fabled sets in EH.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So that's why there's something wrong, they should have changed the table loots of every mobs from every zone. Not just MMIS. And that's why the people complaining about it are RIGHT. And that's why arguing against it is WRONG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Until EH nameds don't drop better loot, MMIS nameds shouldn't drop fabled set gear. Change everything at once, or don't change anything. End of story.</DIV>

[Krontak]

<P>Didn't they just build in the progression that Mayong will not be so easy in that guilds cannot try over and over and over as much as they please to learn the encounter without obtaining the item that was prior to recently, easy to obtain.  With this fix, zone progression was built in that EH would need to be defeated periodically to complete MMIS.  MMIS end boss being the final progression line supplying the breastpiece.  Is it possible there was a misunderstanding in that EH end boss was needed to defeat MMIS boss and not that every named NPC in MMIS was supposed to be more difficult than every NPC in EH?  I can't say for sure since I was neither in BETA nor do I know any Dev personally to ask.  Just something to think about.  Nobody is gonna stop doing EH now 'cause  they will need to defeat the zone to get the end item.</P> <P>So, what do we have now, 5 pieces of the 7 piece set that will be attainable by quite a few guilds.  From a Swashy standpoint, the one that makes me drool is the 7 piece bonus on the armor.  The hardest two pieces will be the legs and the chest.  The npc's that drop these are not a pushover so that seems like some sort of progression to get the complete set.  At least they got it partially correct.</P> <P>Getting even 5 pieces for most will be pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tough, 7 most likely will be impossible.  The difficulty of getting 5 imho, is just about where it needs to be.  Not necessarily in difficulty of NPC's, but difficulty in how they made the items specifically for one class, and the chances of your class armor dropping can be very low, especially how it seems like you get the same item, 2 or 3 runs in a row.  (not sure [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is up with that if its even intended, hopefully its fixed soon)</P> <P>I have more on my mind and I don't think I worded everything like I meant to but I gotta work for a living so I may add more later...</P> <P> </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Krontak wrote:Didn't they just build in the progression that Mayong will not be so easy in that guilds cannot try over and over and over as much as they please to learn the encounter without obtaining the item that was prior to recently, easy to obtain.  With this fix, zone progression was built in that EH would need to be defeated periodically to complete MMIS.  MMIS end boss being the final progression line supplying the breastpiece.  Is it possible there was a misunderstanding in that EH end boss was needed to defeat MMIS boss and not that every named NPC in MMIS was supposed to be more difficult than every NPC in EH?  I can't say for sure since I was neither in BETA nor do I know any Dev personally to ask.  Just something to think about.  Nobody is gonna stop doing EH now 'cause  they will need to defeat the zone to get the end item.<hr></blockquote>What item are you talking about? Tunarian Wolfsbane? No, that's not dropping in EH anywhere. But consider this, the 2 orange vampires in MMIS need to be burnt down as soon as they hit 6%, and in EH you get stakes that do 3.1% of their health if they are at 6% or lower. Seems to me that those drop to make those mobs easy enough to be killed. But here's a problem, there is no reason to get those stakes as the mobs are easy enough to drop their last 6% anyway, so why are the stakes even in the game?<blockquote><hr>Krontak wrote:So, what do we have now, 5 pieces of the 7 piece set that will be attainable by quite a few guilds. From a Swashy standpoint, the one that makes me drool is the 7 piece bonus on the armor. The hardest two pieces will be the legs and the chest. The npc's that drop these are not a pushover so that seems like some sort of progression to get the complete set. At least they got it partially correct.<hr></blockquote>But the thing is, those mobs are a pushover to anybody who can kill the Matron. Mayong is a near duplicate to the Matron. Wuoshi is not the hardest mob in EH either, I'd have to say that the White Unicorn is a much more difficult fight than Wuoshi, of course everybody knows that the Segmented Rumbler is the hardest mob in the zone of course.

[Goonch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krontak wrote:<BR> <P>Didn't they just build in the progression that Mayong will not be so easy in that guilds cannot try over and over and over as much as they please to learn the encounter without obtaining the item that was prior to recently, easy to obtain.  With this fix, zone progression was built in that EH would need to be defeated periodically to complete MMIS.  MMIS end boss being the final progression line supplying the breastpiece. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wuoshi doesn't give you wolfsbane when you clear EH nor does the flower there let you harvest it, he only hands it out as a part of the Tunare quest.  The patch notes about Wuoshi refer to the Tunare quest NOT EH.

[Krontak]

<P>So I come back to realized I was way off on a couple things.  Same thing happened with a bunch of crap I rushed out the door Friday at about 4:59pm come to find out!  The story of my life heh.</P> <P>Laugh.  So currently, unless someone has found out where, to get wolfsbane, you have to have done a certain step in Tunare's quest and if everyone has completed it and you're outta wolfsbane then no more Mayong.  I hope SOE hasn't forgotten to add it now that they've made the quest non repeatable.  I really don't feel like worshiping Tunare and furthermore, if your in a Freeport only guild your currently [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed but that's a whole other issue I don't think needs to be brought up here!  Anyways, back to posting more incorrect stuff...'till then!</P>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krontak wrote:<BR>Didn't they just build in the progression that Mayong will not be so easy in that guilds cannot try over and over and over as much as they please to learn the encounter without obtaining the item that was prior to recently, easy to obtain.  With this fix, zone progression was built in that EH would need to be defeated periodically to complete MMIS.  MMIS end boss being the final progression line supplying the breastpiece.  Is it possible there was a misunderstanding in that EH end boss was needed to defeat MMIS boss and not that every named NPC in MMIS was supposed to be more difficult than every NPC in EH?  I can't say for sure since I was neither in BETA nor do I know any Dev personally to ask.  Just something to think about.  Nobody is gonna stop doing EH now 'cause  they will need to defeat the zone to get the end item.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>What item are you talking about? Tunarian Wolfsbane? No, that's not dropping in EH anywhere. But consider this, the 2 orange vampires in MMIS need to be burnt down as soon as they hit 6%, and in EH you get stakes that do 3.1% of their health if they are at 6% or lower. Seems to me that those drop to make those mobs easy enough to be killed. But here's a problem, there is no reason to get those stakes as the mobs are easy enough to drop their last 6% anyway, so why are the stakes even in the game?<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krontak wrote:<BR>So, what do we have now, 5 pieces of the 7 piece set that will be attainable by quite a few guilds. From a Swashy standpoint, the one that makes me drool is the 7 piece bonus on the armor. The hardest two pieces will be the legs and the chest. The npc's that drop these are not a pushover so that seems like some sort of progression to get the complete set. At least they got it partially correct.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>But the thing is, those mobs are a pushover to anybody who can kill the Matron. Mayong is a near duplicate to the Matron. Wuoshi is not the hardest mob in EH either, I'd have to say that the White Unicorn is a much more difficult fight than Wuoshi, of course everybody knows that the Segmented Rumbler is the hardest mob in the zone of course.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I actually agree, they've messed up the raid content in EoF, and focussed very heavily on group/solo stuff.</P> <P>EQ2 has never been a great choice for hardcore raiding, and this is pretty much final proof, as if it were needed. We've got a confused raid progression, constant bugs and lag (3+ people need to relog each wipe, without fail), and "set gear" that's set to screw item progression for years ahead because what upgrade is gonna be worth losing the 7-piece bonus? And then there's the step backwards from the armor mold system to praying for a 1/24 chance of the right drop.</P> <P>Clearly, guilds were meant to have to clear EH, or at the very least get the stakes, before tackling MMIS. Consequently, the best gear drops in MMIS.</P> <P>But they didn't test / balance either zone before launch, and were even so dumb as to not consider the effects of manaburn and lifeburn on raid spike DPS. Thus EH is crap risk/reward (plus an absolute trash grind), and MMIS a set gear farm.</P> <P>So what's the fix? You shift things around or make MMIS harder and you're penalising the guilds who didn't farm the crap out of MMIS to get set gear, whilst the guilds that did can use it to their advantage against the newer, harder, version. Rather like at the launch of KoS when certain guilds were in (and out of) Labs 24/7, got full sets of relic then cried nerf to *cough*block everyone else. Only remedy I can see is the whole thing written off as a mess and a new adventure pack with 3-4 endgame raid zones.</P>

[Judist]

<DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Clearly, guilds were meant to have to clear EH, or at the very least get the stakes, before tackling MMIS. Consequently, the best gear drops in MMIS.</FONT></P> <P>The devs stated several times that EH was supposed to be the premier/hardest raid zone for EoF. I dont know why some still think MMIS is suposed to be the hardest (besides looking at loot tables). </P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>But they didn't test / balance either zone before launch, and were even so dumb as to not consider the effects of manaburn and lifeburn on raid spike DPS. Thus EH is crap risk/reward (plus an absolute trash grind), and MMIS a set gear farm.</FONT></P> <P>Good point, would be like Labs and DT sharing the same loot table. Who would wanna do DT if they did? <BR>Labs "was" the easy gearup zone however, and I think MMIS is supposed to be the same. </P> <P>It's why I firmly believe they should give EH better rewards and "not" remove the set pieces from MMIS. If your gonna spend <STRONG>hours</STRONG> on end in EH you may as well have a better than 1 in 24 chance per week (if even that) of winning a set piece you need. Having EH drop better stuff would fix just about everything.</P> <P>Besides, who would really want to kill the last few EH named just to have it drop a "class specific" item someone already has? (Animist bracers anyone?) Watching something rott in EH would be just sickening considering time spent... and with set gear its unfortunatly gonna happen.</P> <P> </P> <P>So based on loot everyone has seen, yea progression currently looks screwed up even tho EH was intented to be the top-end zone. All I can hope for is maybe the incoming epic line will square away some of the progression problems and hopefully add a little better loot to EH.</P> <P>Just my 2c, and ya'll know I got a bucket of change.</P> <P> </P></DIV>

[electricninjasex]

<div><blockquote><hr>Vorlak wrote:<div></div>why cant you guys just stop crying and losing sleep over spilled milk... I could care less if a raid mob is easy or if it drops the uber of uber loots, its a game enjoy it or get lost.<hr></blockquote>Um, what is it you're here for again?</div>

[Snarks]

<div><blockquote><hr>BeatinGuts wrote:<div> <p><font color="#ff6600">Clearly, guilds were meant to have to clear EH, or at the very least get the stakes, before tackling MMIS. Consequently, the best gear drops in MMIS.</font></p> <p>The devs stated several times that EH was supposed to be the premier/hardest raid zone for EoF. I dont know why some still think MMIS is suposed to be the hardest (besides looking at loot tables). </p></div><hr></blockquote>Actually, in Early Beta the progression from EH to IS was extremely clear.  Guilds like second dawn made quick and significant progress in the zone in beta. As a consequence, at the very last minute Dymus (iirc) went through and compeletely revamped the zone difficulty and some/most of the loot (which still sucks). Anyways, this combined with a lack of communication between developers led to the laughable confusion that exists today. When you get to third floor EH, you are rewarded with "Stakes" to kill vampire bosses when their health gets low. It doesn't take a genius to see that this was the intended route to kill Inner Sanctum named. The developers did not forsee aoe avoids and high dps as an easily alternative. You also get items after killing wuoshi that prevent Mayong's "delevel".If the progression were intended to be IS -> EH, wouldn't we see items to help us in EH dropping from IS? No, and we don't. We see it exactly the opposite. No matter what way you look at it, it sucks. If it is supposed to be IS -> EH, your reward for a whole day+ of actually defeating challenging encounters and legions of trash mobs is significantly less than what you get in one hour in sanctum. If the progression is EH->IS (the obvious intent), then everyone beat the boss of EoF before even getting to wuoshi, and any group of 24 players can farm the crap out of endgame set gear.Very, very, very poorly done.</div>

[Judist]

<P>Aye, I really hope the epic line + unrest will clear up progression issues on whats what.</P> <P>The stakes would make MMIS easier, but I doubt the devs "missed" anything when it comes to tactics others use to kill these mobs. Our raids in MMIS were never setup any type of AOE immunity to kill mobs in there. And we have only average raid DPS. <STRONG>Nothing</STRONG> like what some of the other guilds out there are doing DPS wise (many claim 20k DPS zonewide).</P> <P>If we continue to progress thru MMIS at our current rate, I'm just gonna have to assume MMIS is supposed to be a gear-up zone. Were killing these mobs so far with simple straightfoward tactics... power healing, hard debuffs, then steady dps and jousting when possible. Nothing special or tricky the devs wouldnt have thought of.</P> <P>Wushi dosent drop Tunarian Wolfsbane, tho he does give you one if you complete the Tunare Diety quest. I guess thats close enough to suspect the intended progression. However until it actually drops from a kill, Wushi isnt a factor just yet.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>If the progression is EH->IS (the obvious intent), then everyone beat the boss of EoF before even getting to wuoshi, and any group of 24 players can farm the crap out of endgame set gear.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Still dosent seem obvious when a dev stated EH was the top-end EoF raidzone. Like said above, Wushi dosent drops TB (atleast yet), and 24 players have always been able to farm "gear-up" zones in our expansions. In KoS it was stupid-easy because you could get relic AND the class legs within a few minute. Atleast now they'll only get 1 or 2 shoulders pieces once a week. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>I also strongly feel that MM is not the EoF boss. So hes orange and drops the class BP? </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Vyemm dropped the class BP also...</FONT></P> <P>I dunno, maybe its in the lore MM is the boss. I'm gonna wait it out and see for myself.</P> <P> </P>

[Computer MAn]

<div></div><font face="Arial" size="2"><span><i><b>The mobs within Inner Sanctum have been raised in difficulty to reflect the quality of the items they drop.</b></i>Looks like the devs agreed with the people saying the zone was too easy.</span></font><div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Computer MAn wrote:<div></div><font face="Arial" size="2"><span><i><b>The mobs within Inner Sanctum have been raised in difficulty to reflect the quality of the items they drop.</b></i>Looks like the devs agreed with the people saying the zone was too easy.</span></font><div></div><hr></blockquote>[I cannot control my vocabulary] straight.

[Snarks]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Still haven't seen the EH loot, but so far update notes are promising. <u>Thanks for listening</u>, I mean it!I guess loot upgrades are going to happen every expansion /sigh.     Though aniksis is out so who knows<font color="#ff0000">update></font>Review of all known links on test. Only item changed significantly was a 1h off gardener (actually a good upgrade). Everything else is still garbage...                 /sigh                <div></div>Even the worst drops on the third floor didnt get changed~(aka only gardener and wuoshi loot changed - and lots wasn't and is still bad)<p>Message Edited by snarkteeth on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:47 PM</span>

[Manyak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Computer MAn wrote:<BR> <FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN><I><B>The mobs within Inner Sanctum have been raised in difficulty to reflect the quality of the items they drop.</B></I><BR><BR>Looks like the devs agreed with the people saying the zone was too easy.<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>maybe now all these people crying "but were not uber" will shut the [I cannot control my vocabulary] up and progress through raids like the rest of us did in t7.

[Zelkova]

<div><blockquote><hr>DaMutation wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Computer MAn wrote: <div></div><font face="Arial" size="2"><span><i><b>The mobs within Inner Sanctum have been raised in difficulty to reflect the quality of the items they drop.</b></i>Looks like the devs agreed with the people saying the zone was too easy.</span></font> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>maybe now all these people crying "but were not uber" will shut the [I cannot control my vocabulary] up and progress through raids like the rest of us did in t7.<hr></blockquote>Because it's clearly the gear that's holding them back.Yup.</div>

[theriatis]

<P>Ok,</P> <P>do you have some kind of raid progression ? Or a link where i can find it ?</P> <P>Where can a raid go, which is KoS fabled, to gear up (no Group instances please).</P> <P>Shall we go Emerald Halls then ? Or Freethinkers Hideout (wtb Strat for Othysis <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ? Maybe i'm missing something here...</P> <P>We needed the time since EoF started, last week we had for the first time Cheron Viswin killed in there (so, we have 5 out of 6 nameds -> Mayong is missing, of course) and now its even harder ? Ok, we'll test it, maybe we are good enough (i hope that some levels under "uber" will suffice) to kill the Nameds in there.</P> <P>While i have no problems with raising them a little, i am a pessimist in that way, that maybe because Sony may have had in the past time, <EM>slightly</EM>, overdone finetunings... if you get what i mean :smileywink:</P> <P>I think the difficulty of D'Liszta and Cheron is fine, V'klekta (sp?) could be beefed up <EM>a little</EM>, maybe the tacticians armor and enynti, too... but... a little... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>We'll see how it is now after the tests....</P> <P>Regards, theriatis.</P>

[Judist]

<P><FONT color=#ff9900>maybe now all these people crying "but were not uber" will shut the [I cannot control my vocabulary] up and progress through raids like the rest of us did in t7. </FONT></P> <P>Only if by progression you mean farm relic. We had it easy man, so dont act like you did anything special in T7a. </P> <P>The only thing "earned" was bragging rights on who cleared what zones first. Otherwise 12 players could farm everything they need twice a day with zero difficulty in labs. Bah.</P> <P>Increasing MMIS difficulty really isnt necessary based on my experience in the zone and the quality of drops. <BR><BR>And if you actually think the MMIS drops warrant <STRONG>more</STRONG> difficulty...<BR><BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=90586#M90586" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=90586#M90586</A></P> <P>... the picture says it all.<BR><BR></P><p>Message Edited by BeatinGuts on <span class=date_text>01-24-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:29 AM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>theriatis wrote:Where can a raid go, which is KoS fabled, to gear up (no Group instances please).<hr></blockquote>If you are KoS Fabled, then you can currently do all of EoF raids. As of right now(ignoring the change), everything is killable in KoS Fabled. Everything. Gear has never been something that holds good guilds back. If you can't kill the named, that means you need to get better at the game, not you need better gear. Mobs in this game don't block progression because of the need to farm up better gear, they block progession through requiring you to figure out the encounter. Since you can't figure out the encounter, you fail.Just because your guild is fully Fabled doesn't give you a ticket to beating encounters. It only gives you the means to do it, you actually have to be good at the game to kill them. Does MMIS Difficulty need to be changed? Yes, yes it does. The loot drops from the mobs in comparison to other "supposedly" the same difficulty or barely lower zone(Emerald Halls) is a huge dent in raid progression.I will say that beating any of the mobs in there was a total joke and gave 0 accomplishment for killing them. Oh yah, we beat this gargoyle who seems like a mob out of Halls of Seeing! Or, oh yah we beat this Vampire with 4 adds who did, well did he do anything at all? Or, oh yah we beat this Vampire who did nothing untill the end besides a de-level! Then there's, oh yah we had a scout tank a mob and then all was good. That's all the difficulty there is to Inner Sanctum, there isn't any.And you want to see the progression, well let's see. Clockwork was supposed to be KoS-difficulty level. Freethinker's is supposed to be a weak zone that was easy to clear, and may take a few trips to figure out Treyloth. Then we get to Emerald Halls, which starts off easy and progress to a bit more difficulty. Then with the drops in Emerald Halls(a stake that does 3.1% of damage to a Greater Vampire that is at 6% or lower HP), you go in and beat Inner Sanctum.

[Roriondesexiest]

<DIV>Well my concern is what does that statement mean?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Usually it takes a few patches to get things balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So patch 1 no one but best raid guilds can kill if even them.</DIV> <DIV>Patch 2. mobs nerfed to heroic status, everyone farms like mad.</DIV> <DIV>Patch 3. mobs return to their original state or midly more difficult</DIV> <DIV>Patch 4 mobs working as intended...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And there are raids that don't find all the nameds in here a joke.  </DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>dalessit wrote:<DIV>Well my concern is what does that statement mean?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Usually it takes a few patches to get things balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So patch 1 no one but best raid guilds can kill if even them.</DIV> <DIV>Patch 2. mobs nerfed to heroic status, everyone farms like mad.</DIV> <DIV>Patch 3. mobs return to their original state or midly more difficult</DIV> <DIV>Patch 4 mobs working as intended...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And there are raids that don't find all the nameds in here a joke.  </DIV><hr></blockquote> In which case if they are finding the mobs difficult in there now, then they should probably get better at working together and raiding, if they want to continue raiding. As KoS = Easy raiding, Clockwork = Easy, Freethinkers = Easy-Medium, TFD = Medium, EH = Medium-Hard, IS = Hard, Avaters+Pumpkin = Hardest. That was supposed to be the progression I figured.

[EasternKing]

<P>so what your saying is unless you have 8-12hrs to dedicate to clearing EH ..then you cannot raid MMIS ..so for your 40$ your 8-12month's content before next expansion consists of clockwork and FTH ..well thats [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing awesome.</P> <P>you can carry on raiding the [I cannot control my vocabulary] in kos ...boring as [I cannot control my vocabulary] ...or you raid clock which takes 40mins tops ...and you raid FTH 2-3hs ...and thats it ..because unless you are hardcore and i mean able to 1 raid for 8hrs + at a stretch and 2 able to leave your entire raid force logged online so you can come back the next day and spend another 8hrs clearing from where you left off ...you cannot hope to have a chance in hell of clearing EH...so cannot clear EH means you cannot do MMIS because thats supposed to come after EH ..are you guys for real ? there is maybe and im being generous here 16 guilds WW who have the time to play this way so for 16x30 = 480 people roughly spread across all servers get to experiance all the the raid content .....with that i mean CFM / FTH / EH / MMIS / contested / Avatars ....the other 500+ people per server who raid end game content get [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing shafted because they cant dedicate 30+hrs per week to EH and clearing it ....thats your idea of progression you need to wake the [I cannot control my vocabulary] up and smell the coffee</P> <P>500 server wide / 500per server x 20 servers = 10,000 players WW get shafted cos you [I cannot control my vocabulary]ed up cry baby morons want progression ?!?!?!?</P> <P>since when has progression been about 30+hr raid zones ??!?!?!? im all for progression ive got [I cannot control my vocabulary] all interest in a zone that takes the best guilds WW 8rs to clear to the boss in it</P> <P>fix EH and by that i mean get rid of 80% of the trash in there so your looking at 3-4hrs tops to clear to the boss and then by all means make it so that you cannot kill mobs in MMIS unless you cleared EH cos at moment it [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing stinks to high heaven</P> <P>i didnt buy an expansion to get penalized because i cannot dedicate 8hrs at a stretch to raiding 1 zone ...nor to have my entire guild stay logged online in a zone to keep it open for the next days attempts.</P> <P>Well mr Grimble you seem to be listening to the select few here with your changes ...and dont get me wrong im all for challenging content make the mobs challenging ...not 2000000 trash mobs that mean you need to dedicate days of effort to clear it to get to the boss's</P> <P>you really willl lose a significant part of your player base if this situation is not adressed and balanced asap.</P> <P>EDITED to further clarify what im talking about </P> <P>monday zone in clear to 1st floor boss ..if able kill first floot boss then start clearing trash. out of time after 8hrs leave everyone online in the zone and go sleep </P> <P>tuesday home from work all raid is in the zone already ....carry on from where left off ...if able kill 2nd floor boss if not keep trying till out of time ...again all leave pcs on and raid online in zone ....</P> <P>wednesday night either keep working the boss of 2nd floor ...or your on 3rd floor and working wuoshi ...keep going till out of time</P> <P>thurs night same again ...</P> <P>friday same again uptil out of time then people can leave zone as raids are off for sat / sunday</P> <P>for guilds and raid forces that cannot do this its 8hrs clearing first floor and trying the boss till killing it ...leave the zone ....next raid day ...spend 8hrs clearing the trash on the first floor and trying the boss again </P> <P>people who cannot leave there whole raid online are penalised by having to kill the same trash over and over again ...where as the hardcore guilds DO NOT as they keep the zone open...of course the hardcore guilds have no problems with tons of trash ....THEY DONT HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT ....thats why they dont mind it ...they clear it once per week</P> <P>this problem is further compounded if you want to work on the second floor boss and your not hardcore ...you have to clear all the trash to that boss every single visit ...and the 3rd floor ? ...well wuoshi could be as hard as tarinax is currently  because the n0 of guilds that have the time to play non hardcore have next to no chance of ever having enough time to clear to him ....and if they somehow manage to clear to him and get a handful of pulls on him ...guess what ? they have to leave the zone ...so that means next time they cannot just come back and carry on working wuoshi ...they have to clear the WHOLE zone again </P> <P>FIX THIS ...either make it so that hardcore guilds cannot keep the zone open ......then they will do all the complaining needed to get the trash toned down as they wont like having to clear it all every single visit ...or reduce the trash ...the numbers and there hps.</P><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class=date_text>01-24-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:12 PM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:I want to be able to do everything in this game just like everybody else but don't want to invest enough time<hr></blockquote>Ahh, I'm sorry you can't raid all of the content because you don't have enough time. I'm sorry, but this is the whole I pay the same $15 as the next guy argument all over again.

[Kizee]

<P>Kinda stupid if you ask me...</P> <P>I agree that first couple named need a boost in MMIS but if they make the place harder than EH then......[I cannot control my vocabulary] this game. I don't have 10+ hours to clear trash in EH (that drops nothing BTW) to get geared up to do MMIS.</P> <P> </P>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR>I want to be able to do everything in this game just like everybody else but don't want to invest enough time<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Ahh, I'm sorry you can't raid all of the content because you don't have enough time. I'm sorry, but this is the whole I pay the same $15 as the next guy argument all over again.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL</P> <P>I wanted a longer raid zone instead of the 1 room instanced ones but dedicating a whole day clearing trash isn't my idea of fun. </P> <P>The people that say they enjoy clearing that zone must like sticking pins in their eyes and cutting themselves.</P>

[EasternKing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR>I want to be able to do everything in this game just like everybody else but don't want to invest enough time<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Ahh, I'm sorry you can't raid all of the content because you don't have enough time. I'm sorry, but this is the whole I pay the same $15 as the next guy argument all over again.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>so i cant spend 8hrs a day holding a zone open to go back day after day is your idea of progression ?</P> <P>please tell me where i said i want named encounters making easier ?</P> <P>i run a guild we raid 2 days a week .... i fail to see why i cannot dedicate 30+ hrs to one zone is me asking for ezmode </P> <P>and lets get one thing straight pinsky i didnt say i pay 15$ i said i cant play eq2raid 8hrs a day to do one zone ....i can raid 5-6hrs sat and 5-6hrs sunday ...in Kos FD that was enough time to do all the raids that are instanced ...show me where it says raid progression is 30hrs a week in 1 zone ?</P> <P>yeah you cannot,  thanks much.</P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR>I want to be able to do everything in this game just like everybody else but don't want to invest enough time<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Ahh, I'm sorry you can't raid all of the content because you don't have enough time. I'm sorry, but this is the whole I pay the same $15 as the next guy argument all over again.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>so i cant spend 8hrs a day holding a zone open to go back day after day is your idea of progression ?</P> <P>please tell me where i said i want named encounters making easier ?</P> <P>i run a guild we raid 2 days a week .... i fail to see why i cannot dedicate 30+ hrs to one zone is me asking for ezmode </P> <P>and lets get one thing straight pinsky i didnt say i pay 15$ i said i cant play eq2raid 8hrs a day to do one zone ....i can raid 5-6hrs sat and 5-6hrs sunday ...in Kos FD that was enough time to do all the raids that are instanced ...show me where it says raid progression is 30hrs a week in 1 zone ?</P> <P>yeah you cannot,  thanks much.</P><hr></blockquote> Show me where it says 30 hours of raiding a week isn't raid progression. Yep, that's right you can't. You're just grasping for straws. If you want to be able to raid everything, you have to be willing to raid a lot if you want to see everything. You are making the I can only play for x hours but I want to see the ENTIRE game. That's exactly what the whole I pay $15/month argument is about.

[Computer MAn]

What is wrong with having 1-2 zones dedicated to the hardcore raider? This whole game is geared towards the casual player why can the hardcores not have 1-2 zones geared towards us. It seems most of the complaining about MMIS getting boosted is the casual guilds. If you are as casual as you say you are you will raid what 1-3 days a week? So you raid Clockwork Menace factory and DT one day (which btw DT loot is better than 75% of the EOF fabled anyway)  and FTH the next day. If you raid a 3rd insert random zone here and your set. If you find MMIS too challenging then stop coming to the forums and complaining about how hard it is. TRY the encounters and learn to beat them. As Pinski as said before if you don't have the best geared players in the game you can still clear everything there is as all of the mobs are more skill dependant than gear dependant anyways. If you can't beat a named on your first trip into Inner Sanctum big [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing deal come back when your lockouts up. You don't have to clear everything your first time in zone PROGRESS throughout the zone learning the nameds as you go.<div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>In truth EH is a whole new area of raiding, That i wanted. Yes a long multi day raid zone. BIG PROBLEM. You can't save the raid zone. You can't zone out and continue where you left off. You can't even leave yoru entire guild in that zone overnight during the week due to server reboots. </P> <P>I don't want the developers to nerf the zone. I want them to implement a save raid function for EH (only). Main reason is i raid sun-thurs. I have a life consisting of drinking and hanging out on fridays and saturdays. Lets not continue with the you must raid fri-sat as well just to clear EH. </P> <P>But seriously the TOPIC of this thread was resolved. The time issue with EH is a total new issue that should be put into its own thread. </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>01-24-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:46 PM</span>

[Computer MAn]

<div></div>Just thought I would add this because I am sure the casual guilds are too busy to pull the mob more than once without knowing the strat. Knowing SOE's way of "beefing up mobs" the upgraded MMIS will have nameds that either:A) Spawn 2 heroic level 74 adds that will probably have stunning shardsB) Mem wipe every 30 seconds or so.C) Have stronger, stunning, charming, or more AE'sD) For the Yellow vampire alone without even fighting the mob I can bet that 2-3 of her adds have been made epic and she probably has a real AE.E) Will have a severe delevel.F) More hitpointsG) Any combination of the above.Congratulations if you are prepared for these 7 things you will probably be able to beat 95% of the EOF raid content!<div></div><p>Message Edited by Computer MAn on <span class=date_text>01-24-2007</span> <span class=time_text>05:05 PM</span>

[Gungo]

You forgot the debuff aoe

[Judist]

<P>The difficulty was changes for a few reasons. One of the main ones was raiders (most hardcore) went into MMIS and completly owned it in a couple tries. They wanted difficult encounters all over again, something many expect when you get a new expansion. But they didnt think it thru...<BR><BR>What many just dont seem to graps was your going from T7a to T7b. All that wonderful gear you spent the last year getting, and the time spent getting 100% mastered, and <STRONG>most of all</STRONG> learning to be a 100% profeccient and flawless as a raiding team is <STRONG>your</STRONG> easy button. <BR><BR>BUT! You earned that right for easy encounters. No doubt about it and I applaud every hardcore guild or raider who is hardcore at heart. You learned everything the is to know about encounters, every trick to your class and thats great.<BR><BR>But <STRONG>please</STRONG> dont expect to face mobs that are difficult when you've spent much more time raiding than a casual guild does, and on top of that your not raiding a "new tier". Its just T7b. Nothing but a few bosses and contested should present <STRONG>any</STRONG> type of challenge to an top-end raidguild who has beated everything KoS and Fallen Dynasty has to offer.<BR><BR>If SOE messes up increasing the difficulty, then yes... the top raidguilds will face alot of great challenges. And a challenge to many of these guilds is very much out of reach for a casual one. You say its all skill and anyone can do it if you learn the strats. I say put a casual guild in-front of the Matron and give them 10 clean pulls on her. I have feelings many could not down her. Should they? Not IMO. Those types of encounters were made for great guilds.<BR><BR>So making MMIS hard enuf to please the ones complaining could kill MMIS for many of the other raiders out there. I know you want a challenge, but you may have to wait until T8. When a true tier expansion comes out your gonna need to obtain a completely new set of gear and masters. Then you will be challenged once again.</P> <P>Otherwise asking for things to be continually beefed up will continue to screw over everyone else. But who knows, maybe the beefup wont be so bad like Cochy said, and I'm just shooting myself in the foot here.</P> <P><BR><BR>FYI This post goes to anyone in the "top 10%" who's been pushing for difficult encounters.</P> <P> </P>

[Dogm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P>The difficulty was changes for a few reasons.<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How about because they where too easy.</P> <P></P> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The difficulty was changes for a few reasons. One of the main ones was raiders (most hardcore) went into MMIS and completly owned it in a couple tries. They wanted difficult encounters all over again, something many expect when you get a new expansion. But they didnt think it thru...<BR><BR>What many just dont seem to graps was your going from T7a to T7b. All that wonderful gear you spent the last year getting, and the time spent getting 100% mastered, and <STRONG>most of all</STRONG> learning to be a 100% profeccient and flawless as a raiding team is <STRONG>your</STRONG> easy button.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Except that the Devs stated many times that EoF was supposed to come after KoS in difficulty.   So yes, this is T7-B  and guess what B comes after A, so it should still present a challenge. </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P>But <STRONG>please</STRONG> dont expect to face mobs that are difficult when you've spent much more time raiding than a casual guild does, and on top of that your not raiding a "new tier". Its just T7b. Nothing but a few bosses and contested should present <STRONG>any</STRONG> type of challenge to an top-end raidguild who has beated everything KoS and Fallen Dynasty has to offer.<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why are you expecting mobs that are not difficult?  Just because some of us raided a lot doesn't mean there is no way to have a challenge.  Once again T7-B should be harder then T7-A.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR><BR>So making MMIS hard enuf to please the ones complaining could kill MMIS for many of the other raiders out there. I know you want a challenge, but you may have to wait until T8. When a true tier expansion comes out your gonna need to obtain a completely new set of gear and masters. Then you will be challenged once again. <P>Otherwise asking for things to be continually beefed up will continue to screw over everyone else. But who knows, maybe the beefup wont be so bad like Cochy said, and I'm just shooting myself in the foot here.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We are not asking for it to be beefed up to screw over anybody else, but because the mobs are clearly too easy.   When you can go into the zone and kill every named, minus Mayong, in 2 pulls on your first trip in , then there is a problem.</P> <P>As for waiting for a T8, that's just silly.   Most of us would rather there never be another level cap increase and only more content-oriented expansions. <BR><BR><BR></P>

[Judist]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>When you can go into the zone and kill every named, minus Mayong, in 2 pulls on your first trip in , then there is a problem.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not for most casual guilds... but like I said thats a fact established raid guilds dont seem to understand. If we put you in a raid with 23 casual players, no amount of your guidance is gonna help them clear more than 2 epics in MMIS without ALOT of repair kits. Dont get me wrong, everyone will eventually get thru MMIS like the rest, but at a slower rate than the top 10%.<BR><BR>Case and point Tarinax. The top 10% killed him early on and wanted him beefed up. Mind you, it took several months for the other guilds to catch up even with the difficulty of Tarry untouched. Had you beefed him up, it would have taken others even longer than a few months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Most of us would rather there never be another level cap increase and only more content-oriented expansions. </FONT><BR><BR>And speak for yourself... It's hard letting go of a couple years worth of loots, but T8 is necessary and coming. I will be looking forward to the eventual "reset button" for masters and gear. Seriously, what fun would releasing T7c T7d T7e be? True challenge only comes from upping a tier level. The ones who dont want it to happen are just too attached to their in-game objects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dogm]

<DIV>Nobody asked for Tarinax to be "beefed up"  only fixed.   If you fought him at the time you would know that his adds only spawned on your first pull.   This is what was asked for  and this is what was changed.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How is T8 necessary?   </DIV> <DIV>What do you get when you gain 10 levels?   Hps +10%, Power +10%,  Spell + 10% damage,  Combat art + 10% damage, Heal + 10% healing,  Buff + 10% stats.</DIV> <DIV>What does a mob get ?                                 HPs +10%, Damage + 10%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is absolutely no change at all with a level cap increase, other then time.   If mobs hit 10% harder, and have 10% more HPs, and you do the same, then you are still at the same point you started.  Gaining 10 levels is no challenge at all.  Upping a tier level is no challenge at all.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adding content to an existing tier, can provide much more challenge and if done right give you plenty of stuff to do.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <DIV> The ones who dont want it to happen are just too attached to their in-game objects.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>The ones who want a tier increase just dont understand that when you add  10% to everything you really don't gain anything at all.   You are in the same place you where at level 30 just with bigger numbers.<BR></DIV>

[Judist]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>How is T8 necessary?   </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>What do you get when you gain 10 levels?   Hps +10%, Power +10%,  Spell + 10% damage,  Combat art + 10% damage, Heal + 10% healing,  Buff + 10% stats.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>What does a mob get ?                                 HPs +10%, Damage + 10%</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>There is absolutely no change at all with a level cap increase, other then time.   If mobs hit 10% harder, and have 10% more HPs, and you do the same, then you are still at the same point you started.  Gaining 10 levels is no challenge at all.  Upping a tier level is no challenge at all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last post I pormise... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, everything posed above is silly in every sense of the word. <BR><BR>Let me reset every master you have, take ever piece of fabled you have away, and then turn you loose in EoF.  THATS progression my friend. If what you say is so simple and obvious, we'd all still be lvl 10.  Adding a new tier presents challenges across the board. You have to go at raid zones from the bottom up all over again, not jump into T7c in fully fabled T7b.<BR><BR>Continually giving maxed out players new content is no challenge.... No new spells to upgrade, miniscule gear upgrades, what fun is that? You learn a strat, kill, probably dont even need the drop and your bored 1 month later.<BR><BR>If a new tier is no challenge then you must have walked thru KoS as soon as ya'll hit 70. Probably did Tarinax in mastercrafted with only the few relic you got from 1 run in Labs... you know, where you cleared it and killed Vyemm on the first try. <BR><BR>Or maybe, just maybe you got a whole new sense of progression as your geared up all over again and learned brand new arts...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dogm]

<DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR>Continually giving maxed out players new content is no challenge.... <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>If there was true zone progression, then there would be a challenge.   You need the gear from zones A, B, and C  to be able to clear zone D.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV><BR>Let me reset every master you have, take ever piece of fabled you have away, and then turn you loose in EoF.  THATS progression my friend. If what you say is so simple and obvious, we'd all still be lvl 10.  Adding a new tier presents challenges across the board. You have to go at raid zones from the bottom up all over again, not jump into T7c in fully fabled T7b.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Just a timesink, and nothing more.  Adding a new tier just means you must wait a month to get max level before you get back to the same point you where 1 tier earlier.   And KoS was new content, so yes it was a challenge,   not because you had to gain 10 levels to do it, but because it was new content.  Look at EQ and how long the max levels stayed the same, and how many content expansions they got.  The zones got harder, the loot got better, there was progression.   They could tune the new mobs based on the loot from the old mobs.   Adding levels negates that and forces the "progression" to go back to steps so everyone is on equal footing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here we have this system:<BR></DIV> <DIV>Level 70:    10,000 HPs        hits for   1,000          gets hit for 5,000</DIV> <DIV>Level 200:  100,000 HPs       hits for   10,000          gets hit for 50,000<BR></DIV> <DIV>Sure those bigger numbers look nicer, but you have gained nothing, you aren't challenged anymore then before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adding new content to an existing level range allows them to have  something like this.    Level 1 raids:  loot is L1 Fabled (like relic)  Mobs are balanced around players in legendary gear,  Level 2 raids: Loot is L2 Fabled (like EoF class sets) Mobs are balanced around L1 gear,  Level 3 raids: Loot is L3 Fabled (Better stuff) Mobs are balanced around L2 Gear, etc... ,   and in each Level of raids you would have more steps where L1-B raids will be harder then the entry level raids, and you will want to have some raid gear to be able to do them</DIV> <DIV>This is progression,  this is how to have a challenge, just having to gain 10 levels is nothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You sir, don't seem to understand what people mean when they ask for progression.<BR><BR></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class=date_text>01-24-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:57 PM</span>

[Barand]

I m not in any top guild, but we just got the last named before the boss in mistmoor and i find it too easy to get this far. I want this game to last, not to be bored like at the end of KoS where we were sure to kill nearly everything in every instance without any effort, where the most difficult part of the raid was to get a correct raid force. I want to be challenged by the encounter even if that mean i will not have any set piece before a month or two. Right now i m more pleased by Emerald hall or Freeethinker because we have to work hard to get any named in there. And when our guild beat one of them, it make everyone very happy, because we know we have work hard to get them, wiped many time and the reward is there. I have never felt that way in mistmoor for the moment, every mob is so easy we feel more like looting 3 set piece and logging out than actually going to fight something(exept majong but we are far from beeing able to beat him). <div></div>

[Ellrin]

I havent got an issue with the mobs being beefed up, at least 2 of the named in there were pathetic.That said I am very concerned that the progression is wrong, putting EH before MMIS rules the majority of raiding guilds (yes the majority do not have 8 plus hours to raid one zone) effictively out of 2 zones instead of if EH came after MMIS it would likely be only one.We are a casual guild that had beaten all T7 instanced raid content (bar Cheldrak) before EoF went live raiding 3 days a week. On our 3 days we currently raid DT and Clockwork on one day, Freethinkers on the next and MMIS on the last, we typically have about 3.5 hours max to raid in each session due to being a mature bunch with kids/wives/husbands and the time constraints those involve. Its highly likely we wont be going to Emerald Halls anytime soon due to the timesink involved unless as Gungo has asked we are able to save our progress in it, to have this as a stepping stone for MMIS is in my view [Removed for Content] about face.<div></div>

[theriatis]

<DIV>Hi,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the best post here was from the guy (didn't remember his name) who posted this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>And if you actually think the MMIS drops warrant <STRONG>more</STRONG> difficulty...<BR><BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=90586#M90586" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=90586#M90586</FONT></A> <P>... the picture says it all.<BR>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P>Harder Mobs are nice (not for us, were casual / semi-hardcore Raiders) but if the gear is sub-par....</P> <P>Thats a chest piece, which can drop from Trash in Labs... and another Chest Piece from a named in MMIS which</P> <P>is, and i think all people here will agree with me, obviously a lot harder than trash in labs, which is just a little bit better than Relic.</P> <P>If the Mob is getting harder, then up the gear as well.</P> <P>And, offtopic, if something is named "Robe of...." then make that [I can control my vocabulary] thing a Robe ! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Besides, my Idea of Raid Progression, Fun and Difficulty is NOT clearing 8h Trash.</P> <P>Regards, Theriatis.</P></DIV>

[Judist]

<P><FONT color=#ff6600>You sir, don't seem to understand what people mean when they ask for progression.<BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff6600><FONT color=#ffffff><BR>Yea yer right man, I've no idea... hahaha. I just suck at life!   You just go ahead and keep on pushing for no more tier expansions, because I personally cant wait for T7c to come around. Woohoo! No more spells ever again!  T7 forever!   I eventually want a T7c or d  chain BP with 630 mit!!! That way when I'm fighting lvl70 KoS mobs I can just auto attack named, go afk, and come back and loot!<BR><BR>/sarcasm off</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600><FONT color=#ffffff>Dude, 2 braincells is all you need to understand you CANT keep on pushing non-tier expansion packs. T8 is coming next so enjoy the fabled now. And if you dont think thats progression, if staying in T7 forever is what you "honestly and truely" think everyone wants, I just feel sad for you.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></FONT> </P>

[CalypsoCGN]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Computer MAn wrote:<font size="3"><b>What is wrong with having 1-2 zones dedicated to the hardcore raider? This whole game is geared towards the casual player why can the hardcores not have 1-2 zones geared towards us. It seems most of the complaining about MMIS getting boosted is the casual guilds.</b></font> <hr></blockquote>Umm...well...let me see...there is nothing wrong having a zone dedicated to "hardcore"-raiders, absolutely nothing, BUT if they do so, this zone has to be at the far end of the progression-line. If EH is meant to be for "hc"-raiders only, then putting MMIS behind it in therms of progression is just plain and simple bull[I cannot control my vocabulary]!!! This would lock every causual / semi-causual raiding guild down and they wouldnt be able to clear a zone (MMIS) that is not totally catered to the "hc"-raiders (because it doent take 2 days to clear it).Like I said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a raid-zone that takes a lot of time to clear...but that zone should not be in the middle of the "progression-line" of the raid-zones (If it would be at the very end, then there is nothing wrong with it.). And neither should it be involved into an epic questline, as noone besides the "hardcore" guilds would be able to finish it.And just as a side-note...there's nothing wrong with beefing up the named mobs in MMIS...some of them were easier then KoS-trash (DT eyeballs and traps hit a lot harder). They just shouldnt be beefed up beyond oblivion <span>:smileytongue:</span></div><p>Message Edited by CalypsoCGN on <span class=date_text>01-25-2007</span> <span class=time_text>05:47 AM</span>

[Roriondesexiest]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CalypsoCGN wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Computer MAn wrote:<BR><FONT size=3><B>What is wrong with having 1-2 zones dedicated to the hardcore raider? This whole game is geared towards the casual player why can the hardcores not have 1-2 zones geared towards us. It seems most of the complaining about MMIS getting boosted is the casual guilds.</B></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Umm...well...let me see...there is nothing wrong having a zone dedicated to "hardcore"-raiders, absolutely nothing, BUT if they do so, this zone has to be at the far end of the progression-line. If EH is meant to be for "hc"-raiders only, then putting MMIS behind it in therms of progression is just plain and simple bull[I cannot control my vocabulary]!!! This would lock every causual / semi-causual raiding guild down and they wouldnt be able to clear a zone (MMIS) that is not totally catered to the "hc"-raiders (because it doent take 2 days to clear it).<BR><BR>Like I said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a raid-zone that takes a lot of time to clear...but that zone should not be in the middle of the "progression-line" of the raid-zones (If it would be at the very end, then there is nothing wrong with it.). And neither should it be involved into an epic questline, as noone besides the "hardcore" guilds would be able to finish it.<BR><BR>And just as a side-note...there's nothing wrong with beefing up the named mobs in MMIS...some of them were easier then KoS-trash (DT eyeballs and traps hit a lot harder). They just shouldnt be beefed up beyond oblivion <SPAN>:smileytongue:</SPAN><BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by CalypsoCGN on <SPAN class=date_text>01-25-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:47 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/agree</P>

[Krontak]

<P>So, I guess MMIS is going to become more difficult then EH.  Does that mean they are going to require us to actually use the spikes.  This leads me into my next thought.  I have been in EH once so far.  On average, how long does it take to get to the point where you get spikes from EH?  I know its all dependent on what is actually up in zone but on average is all I'm concerned with.  Because, if it turns out that you do need the spikes, and it takes 8 hours to get to them, then I'm sure I won't be alone in telling SOE to go [I cannot control my vocabulary] off. </P>

[Gungo]

<P> I would love for MMIS to be harder then EH. No one here would have an issue with that if EH didn't require such substantial time invest on Specific days. </P> <P>SoE needs to make EH have a floor level save function. Require every floor to be cleared before you enter the next floor.  If you clear the first floor the raid is saved and you get access to the second. Clear the second floor save the raid progress and get access to the third. The zone then resets completely after the overall lockout is first set on initial zoning. So this gives raids 6? days to clear EH.   </P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krontak wrote:<BR> <P>So, I guess MMIS is going to become more difficult then EH.  Does that mean they are going to require us to actually use the spikes.  This leads me into my next thought.  I have been in EH once so far.  On average, how long does it take to get to the point where you get spikes from EH?  I know its all dependent on what is actually up in zone but on average is all I'm concerned with.  Because, if it turns out that you do need the spikes, and it takes 8 hours to get to them, then I'm sure I won't be alone in telling SOE to go [I cannot control my vocabulary] off. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I seriosuly doubt that mmis is harder then EH. Imho the encounters need to rescritped for that. Instead they probably just increased the abilites of the mobs.

[Illustrious]

<P>making the MMIS mobs harder was prolly needed as was increasing some of the loot quality in EH,  but not if they go overboard.</P> <P> </P> <P>Proggresson was all wrong where FTH is harder than MMIS (apart mayong).</P> <P> </P> <P>However if you NEED stakes that are miles in EH to actually kill the vampires in MMIS that thats plain bollox.</P> <P> </P> <P>As many have commented on, keep EH as hard as it is now, but make the zone shorter. I seriously doubt there are many guilds willing to spends hours or days camped in there to get the stakes. Most guilds cannot afford to be logged in for 3-4 days which i know some do to start pulling Woushi.</P> <P> </P> <P>Im fine with it kept a huge long zone (something for the truely hardcore to work through and beat) but only if you DO NOT need anything in there to progress to MMIS. Otherwise basically the new EoF raid content for the vast majority of raiders is gonna be Clockwork and FTH, which is plain bull[I cannot control my vocabulary]. making a zone hugely time consuming does not weed out the good players/raids from the bad or mediochre, it just weeds them out depending on rl commitments spread over several days.</P>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<P>I'm gonna agree with the make MMIS harder, and remove 70% of the trash mobs from EH approach.</P> <P>EH is a long, dull, grind. The trash isn't hard by anyone's standards. The named vary from moderate difficulty to impossible.</P> <P>Assuming you got a pop of the zone without Rumbler, had a raid parsing 25k or so on trash, and pulled and killed nameds first attempt, you're looking at 5-6 hours to get stakes. The more hardcore guilds are going /afk in here and taking several days. I think Deathtoll is a good guide for how long a raid zone should take to clear, and keeps players awake with traps and a variety of trash quite well. EH, on the other hand, is a mass of mobs with zero challenge and several million hp, and just plain boring. Some good named fights in there, but by the time you get to them everyone is so sick of the zone they're ready to leave. At the very least some random drops are needed off the trash to give some reward for killing it.</P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:<BR> <P>I'm gonna agree with the make MMIS harder, and remove 70% of the trash mobs from EH approach.</P> <P>EH is a long, dull, grind. The trash isn't hard by anyone's standards. The named vary from moderate difficulty to impossible.</P> <P>Assuming you got a pop of the zone without Rumbler, had a raid parsing 25k or so on trash, and pulled and killed nameds first attempt, you're looking at 5-6 hours to get stakes. The more hardcore guilds are going /afk in here and taking several days. I think Deathtoll is a good guide for how long a raid zone should take to clear, and keeps players awake with traps and a variety of trash quite well. EH, on the other hand, is a mass of mobs with zero challenge and several million hp, and just plain boring. Some good named fights in there, but by the time you get to them everyone is so sick of the zone they're ready to leave. At the very least some random drops are needed off the trash to give some reward for killing it.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>EH would be fine if there was a way to do it over several days that did not include leaving people in zone all day for 3 days on a weekend w/o server reboots. </P> <P>Eh would not be a boring grind if the named were not on random spawn. </P> <P>If all the named were up on every zoning (as it should be) and the zone had a save point before the second and third level. Eh would be perfect for a 2-3 day raid zone.</P>

[PublicVoid]

<P>Why don't they just move the stakes to Freethinkers.   Make it a repeatable quest that requires killing the last name, a drop or something.  </P> <P>As for EH keep the volume of trash but reduce their HP by 50% - 60%.  </P> <P>The MMIS named were a little cakeish...  but gawd if they add curse of insanity to enyenti (sp) I'll [Removed for Content] scream.  Theres no reason to go overboard SOE. </P>

[Computer MAn]

I don't see why everyone thinks the stakes will be REQUIRED sure they will make the zone easier but lets be realistic like I posted above the difficulty "upgrade" will just be some bull[I cannot control my vocabulary] upgrade adding more HP, adds, a memwipe etc. I would bet that there is no way the stakes are 100% required to clear the zone they will be more of a reward for getting to the 3rd floor of EH.<div></div>

[Krontak]

I hope they make the stakes required to kill the named, preventing many from even attempting them anymore, cause nobody would want to deal with endless hours in EH and then people just start saying f this crap and leave and all the l33t people that have endless hours to play can sit around and tell each other how l33t they are and /shrug, /sigh and get emo with each other while wondering where everyone went.  So SOE, pretty please with [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing sugar on top, don't introduce crap that takes endless hours to complete in one sitting.  It would be a waste of your resources and un-economical to cater to I'm guessing (just throwing a number out), .005% of your player base that can play for endless hours.  But hey, if 1/4 of the new raid content being designed for .005% of your playerbase was your intention just go right ahead but please, tell us now if this is the direction you are going.  Thanks!

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Computer MAn wrote:<BR>I don't see why everyone thinks the stakes will be REQUIRED sure they will make the zone easier but lets be realistic like I posted above the difficulty "upgrade" will just be some bull[I cannot control my vocabulary] upgrade adding more HP, adds, a memwipe etc. I would bet that there is no way the stakes are 100% required to clear the zone they will be more of a reward for getting to the 3rd floor of EH.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree there is no real way for them to make mmis harder then EH w/o a true revamp on script. Instead i am sure they opted to just make the aoe's hit harder. Adds hit harder etc. For them to require the stakes would mena they would need to increase the named hp's to the point where dps'ing the named from 6% to 2% would be im possible w/o the stake. (inqusitors can bring the named from 2% to 0%) Which means 50k+ raid spike dps could at max take out 2-3%, then use a spike, then inquisitor. This wont happen because then the nameds would need like 10 million hp's =P.</P> <P>Now what they could do is either give the named a strong life tap at 10% health or cast alot of wards/heal. </P>

[IKilled007]

<div></div><div></div>Have you ever noticed that the guilds that "got there first" and exploited all the bugs for months are the biggest complainers when everyone else catches up to them legitimately? All those old guilds which, by virtue of being a guild sooner, managed to benefit from all the exploits that have since been removed -- farming raid zones for months and getting completely geared out against encounters which were much easier. All of it pre-combat change too -- these same guilds demand that other players not have it as easy as they did. "Make it harder for everyone else, so we're the only ones with the best gear", they demand.And so we get the combat changes -- mitigation and avoidance nerfs, a new stat curve which moved many of us from the cap to about 40%. Well here's something you need to know. Yes, you had it easier, and yes, you got the gear first because you got there first, and yes, we will probably get nerfed again before we catch up to where you are, and yes, the mobs will be harder and drop worse loot by the time we get there, but we're better than you and when we get to where you are, it won't be because of exploits and better drop rates and easier mobs -- that's how you got there. No, when we get there it will be because of planning and execution, and because we're better than you.So keep whining about how it's too easy for everyone else now that you're done exploiting. Let the nerfs come. It won't change anything in the long run, because we're better and we'll be where you are soon.And the best part is that when the next expansion comes out, we'll be ready to take down the new zones right from the start. And we'll have gear as good as yours by then, but our tactics and execution will be better because we actually had to face the encounters as they were intended, after we were nerfed. So we'll be taking down the zones before you. So keep whining.<div></div><p>Message Edited by IKilled007 on <span class="date_text">01-30-2007</span> <span class="time_text">05:59 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by IKilled007 on <span class=date_text>01-30-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:03 AM</span>

[IKilled007]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sausage101 wrote:<div>Have you ever been in MMIS?  Have you ever pulled a named in there? No? Then you have no clue what you're talking about.  Pickup raids are doing MMIS on my server with success.  FFS, PICKUP RAIDS!  If pickup raids can do more than your casual guild then yes, you are a bunch of noobs. And btw, no one called for Tarinax to be beefed up until he was nerfed.  If we beat a hard version of a mob, everyone else should have to too. </div><hr></blockquote>Beat a hard version of the mob? You mean before all the combat changes? You mean back when the mobs were easily exploited to victory? Give me a break. </div>

[Mycka]

Yeah, I can't wait to see The Brotherhood from Everfrost doing worldwide firsts in the next expansion.Although this thread is about how getting fabled set gears was made easier for the people that "got there last" such as you. Those who "got there first" didn't get the same loots from the easy named you guys are now able to kill and get easy loots from, they got crap items for the most part.So I'm not sure what you were thinking when you posted this, but you sure were wrong in your assumptions, as it's the opposite of what actually happened. In fact, nameds in MMIS started to drop better items only when the casual guilds started to kill them.And I'm only talking about MMIS here, I could give a lot of other examples of things made easier for the people trying to catch up with the best guilds, there are plenty of them. Tarinax being the biggest joke ever is one of them, you can basically kill him in about 1 minute now, and that's counting the 2 adds that will pop during that time (no mezzing, they just die in a few seconds), and with a mage tanking for the most part because of the reset and not dying once even though the tanks didn't feel like saving him by getting the aggro back on them, he didn't even die to the facial AE that used to wipe a full raid before.So next time you feel like posting, make sure you know what you're talking about.

[Pins]

Anyway, it's a done thing. Inner Sanctum is obviously supposed to be last in Raid Progression because of a) Wolfsbane will finally drop off Wuoshi, b) Inner Sanctum is getting harder, c) Stakes that make it easier to kill Vampires drop in Emerald Halls, and d) Bloom Petals are given that prevent Vampiric de-levels in Emerald Halls. Pretty sure those 4 things pretty much sum it all up.

[Roriondesexiest]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR>Anyway, it's a done thing. Inner Sanctum is obviously supposed to be last in Raid Progression because of a) Wolfsbane will finally drop off Wuoshi, b) Inner Sanctum is getting harder, c) Stakes that make it easier to kill Vampires drop in Emerald Halls, and d) Bloom Petals are given that prevent Vampiric de-levels in Emerald Halls. Pretty sure those 4 things pretty much sum it all up.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So I wonder if they are going to do something to Emerald halls because that zone is a [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing joke. <p>Message Edited by dalessit on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:12 AM</span>

[Judist]

<P><FONT color=#ff6600>Anyway, it's a done thing. Inner Sanctum is obviously supposed to be last in Raid Progression because of a) Wolfsbane will finally drop off Wuoshi, b) Inner Sanctum is getting harder, c) Stakes that make it easier to kill Vampires drop in Emerald Halls, and d) Bloom Petals are given that prevent Vampiric de-levels in Emerald Halls. Pretty sure those 4 things pretty much sum it all up.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffffff>EH is supposed to be hard, nearly impossible if you haven't worked your way up in the progression.  Fighting in EH without full AAs, new top end equipment, and some nice adornments, is like fighting in deathtoll without being level 70.<BR></FONT> <P></P> <HR> <P>And here I was thinking that 1 comment summed it up...</P> <P> </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>BeatinGuts wrote: <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Anyway, it's a done thing. Inner Sanctum is obviously supposed to be last in Raid Progression because of a) Wolfsbane will finally drop off Wuoshi, b) Inner Sanctum is getting harder, c) Stakes that make it easier to kill Vampires drop in Emerald Halls, and d) Bloom Petals are given that prevent Vampiric de-levels in Emerald Halls. Pretty sure those 4 things pretty much sum it all up.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffffff>EH is supposed to be hard, nearly impossible if you haven't worked your way up in the progression.  Fighting in EH without full AAs, new top end equipment, and some nice adornments, is like fighting in deathtoll without being level 70.<BR></FONT> <P></P> <HR> <P>And here I was thinking that 1 comment summed it up...</P> <P> </P><hr></blockquote> He also didn't say where Inner Sanctum was in Progression either. All he said was that it was up there near the top. But considering how easy nice adornments are to get, and new top-end equipment was obviously not required, and full AAs were also not required, it's completely dumb how his comment was made but was obviously completely untrue.

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dalessit wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR>Anyway, it's a done thing. Inner Sanctum is obviously supposed to be last in Raid Progression because of a) Wolfsbane will finally drop off Wuoshi, b) Inner Sanctum is getting harder, c) Stakes that make it easier to kill Vampires drop in Emerald Halls, and d) Bloom Petals are given that prevent Vampiric de-levels in Emerald Halls. Pretty sure those 4 things pretty much sum it all up.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So I wonder if they are going to do something to Emerald halls because that zone is a [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing joke.  <P>Message Edited by dalessit on <SPAN class=date_text>01-31-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:12 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>EH is being done in ~6-7 hours now. There are ways to make the zone move along faster mostly due to the poor way it is set up. People can yell off trash on the first 2 floors And not every single trash mob needs to die. Which basically drop nothing and burn w/o regard to mana etc. I still do not like the random named. it allows one instance to be harder then another and really if all the named were up it would not matter if 1 named was easier then another because then they all have to die anyway. I would still like to see the # of adds reduced by ~25, and the named removed from the random spawn.

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Anyway, it's a done thing. Inner Sanctum is obviously supposed to be last in Raid Progression because of a) Wolfsbane will finally drop off Wuoshi, b) Inner Sanctum is getting harder, c) Stakes that make it easier to kill Vampires drop in Emerald Halls, and d) Bloom Petals are given that prevent Vampiric de-levels in Emerald Halls. Pretty sure those 4 things pretty much sum it all up.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffffff>EH is supposed to be hard, nearly impossible if you haven't worked your way up in the progression.  Fighting in EH without full AAs, new top end equipment, and some nice adornments, is like fighting in deathtoll without being level 70.<BR></FONT> <P></P> <HR> <P>And here I was thinking that 1 comment summed it up...</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>He also didn't say where Inner Sanctum was in Progression either. All he said was that it was up there near the top. But considering how easy nice adornments are to get, and new top-end equipment was obviously not required, and full AAs were also not required, it's completely dumb how his comment was made but was obviously completely untrue.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah the only real way i can see his statement holding true for any EOF zone is if the new MMIS named that require a 6% burn actually do require manaburns, lifeburns, decap, assasinate type burns AND possibly the 3% stakes and/or the inquisitor 2% kill. I doubt they new improved named will need all that but some mix of this may be necessary. </P> <P>But really adornments and/or the new equipment do not add much. And only a few AA's stand out. I still do not think MMIS will be as hard as EH.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:42 AM</span>

[Judist]

<P><FONT color=#ff6600>He also didn't say where Inner Sanctum was in Progression either. All he said was that it was up there near the top. But considering how easy nice adornments are to get, and new top-end equipment was obviously not required, and full AAs were also not required, it's completely dumb how his comment was made but was obviously completely untrue.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Granted alot of SoE/Dev comments are vague, the problem was from complaints that some named were abit too easy, and PU raids were clearing the easiest 2 mobs w/ no problems. Even the fix mentions the increase in difficulty was to reflect the quality of the drops, not progression. All in all, it wasnt an issue with progression IMO, but an issue of pleasing true raidguilds who didnt want the average joe to do this anymore.<BR><BR>To reflect on previous progressions, if you gave a completly casual guild 1 DT access holder they could clear the The Hurler and Fitz with no problems. Even with the previous difficulty they were straighfoward fights and cake. However the same casual guild might not be able to kill Vyemm.<BR><BR>So "Mayong" maybe the Boss of EoF, who knows, however that dosent mean the other named need to be harder than any others in a zone. Clearing EH (or atleast getting the nifty items) may make MM easier, but definitly not needed for the other named. Even if now that they are harder, vampire stakes is just 7% (bah, spike the raids DPS) de-lvl preventor is nice, necessary? no. Wolfsbane? I got one solo.</FONT></P> <P>Just my opinions... I think the mobs will be a little harder but nothing even close to requiring EH with the exception of MM, and thats a maybe.</P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></P>Just my opinions... I think the mobs will be a little harder but nothing even close to requiring EH with the exception of MM, and thats a maybe. <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I can almost garantee it wont. It is not like MMIS all of a sudden will have 5 gardener/rum type fights before mayong. The scripts in MMIS are not even close to being that hard. They would of needed to rescript every named in MMIS. Which i doubt they did. Instead they probabyl increased and added abilities to these named. Thats is all. the named are harder, but no where near the difficulty of EH hard named.

[Dogm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>All in all, it wasnt an issue with progression IMO, but an issue of pleasing true raidguilds who didnt want the average joe to do this anymore.<BR></FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=gameplay&message.id=170374#M170374" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=gameplay&message.id=170374#M170374</A></P> <P></P> <HR> <OL> <LI>Players can receive it as a quest reward from the Tunare Deity Quest Line. You will receive one wolfsbane, and this can not be repeated.</LI> <LI>Groups defeating Wuoshi will find five Tunarian Wolfsbane's. This can be repeated.</LI></OL> <P>There are no other current sources of Tunarian Wolfsbane in the game.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Is that not proof enough that the "intended" progression was EH then MIS?</P>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dogmae wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>All in all, it wasnt an issue with progression IMO, but an issue of pleasing true raidguilds who didnt want the average joe to do this anymore.<BR></FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=gameplay&message.id=170374#M170374" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=gameplay&message.id=170374#M170374</A></P> <P></P> <HR> <OL> <LI>Players can receive it as a quest reward from the Tunare Deity Quest Line. You will receive one wolfsbane, and this can not be repeated.</LI> <LI>Groups defeating Wuoshi will find five Tunarian Wolfsbane's. This can be repeated.</LI></OL> <P>There are no other current sources of Tunarian Wolfsbane in the game.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Is that not proof enough that the "intended" progression was EH then MIS?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not really.</P> <P>All that is saying you won't be able to beat the boss mob of MMIS without clearing EH. </P> <P>IMO that is acceptable but if they make it so you need to clear EH to kill anything in MMIS then alot of people will be [Removed for Content]. </P> <P>2 raid zones in EoF expansion are not going to hold peoples attention until next expansion. (since alot of people don't have 10+ hours to kill all of EH)</P>

[Judist]

<P>Ok, we'll heres a finer look at progression then...</P> <P>MMIS named<BR><BR>EH named<BR><BR>MMIS boss</P> <P>I suppose if you were killing Mayong on a reqular basis before, a romp thru EH isnt so bad. Personally I agree 100% with the above comment. Expecially if MM is the end mob for the next epic line (and according to some, lore says he is). Theres no reason to make a 6+ hour zone a prerequisite for completion of the next epic quest.</P> <P>Make individual mobs as hard as you want, just dont try and take our time away from us.</P> <P> </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>BeatinGuts wrote: <P>Ok, we'll heres a finer look at progression then...</P> <P>MMIS named<BR><BR>EH named<BR><BR>MMIS boss</P> <P>I suppose if you were killing Mayong on a reqular basis before, a romp thru EH isnt so bad. Personally I agree 100% with the above comment. Expecially if MM is the end mob for the next epic line (and according to some, lore says he is). Theres no reason to make a 6+ hour zone a prerequisite for completion of the next epic quest.</P> <P>Make individual mobs as hard as you want, just dont try and take our time away from us.</P> <P> </P><hr></blockquote> Nobody complained that SotL took 6+ hours when it first came out for the not so-great guilds. Yet when EH comes out, people complained. Completely odd, imo.

[IKilled007]

<div><blockquote><hr>Myckael wrote:Yeah, I can't wait to see The Brotherhood from Everfrost doing worldwide firsts in the next expansion.Although this thread is about how getting fabled set gears was made easier for the people that "got there last" such as you. Those who "got there first" didn't get the same loots from the easy named you guys are now able to kill and get easy loots from, they got crap items for the most part.So I'm not sure what you were thinking when you posted this, but you sure were wrong in your assumptions, as it's the opposite of what actually happened. In fact, nameds in MMIS started to drop better items only when the casual guilds started to kill them.And I'm only talking about MMIS here, I could give a lot of other examples of things made easier for the people trying to catch up with the best guilds, there are plenty of them. Tarinax being the biggest joke ever is one of them, you can basically kill him in about 1 minute now, and that's counting the 2 adds that will pop during that time (no mezzing, they just die in a few seconds), and with a mage tanking for the most part because of the reset and not dying once even though the tanks didn't feel like saving him by getting the aggro back on them, he didn't even die to the facial AE that used to wipe a full raid before.So next time you feel like posting, make sure you know what you're talking about.<hr></blockquote>Nice try, hero. Let me tell you something about the guilds that got there first. Ever hear of Ebonlore/Malice? Back when dragons had loot tables 15 items long, those guys were pulling mobs into walls to cancel out the AOEs. You think people don't know that most mobs are bugged when the first guilds get to them? That they can be exploited and farmed for months before it comes to the Devs' attention? And that only after you've farmed the hell out of them you begin whining for fixes? We do know. We've seen it firsthand. So spare me the talk about how much easier things are now. There has been a combat change, my friend. We got pushed back to the middle of the curve on all stats. Or maybe you're not familiar with the mitigation and avoidance changes. If that's the case, just do a seach on the forums and you can have it explained to you why killing these mobs now is a lot harder than killing them when you did it. You can read post after post about how Guild [x] could take down the Drake or Tarinax or whatever on a weekly basis before the changes, but post change, they can't beat it at all.Well we never had it easy like you did. We never got to use any exploits (of which there were hundreds, documented on these very forums -- just do some searches for Ebonlore/Malice), and we never fought these mobs pre-combat change. But we can beat them. So don't be surprised when our guild is getting server firsts or even worldwide firsts as of the next expansion. But talk is cheap. We'll have to see what we see.</div>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P>Ok, we'll heres a finer look at progression then...</P> <P>MMIS named<BR><BR>EH named<BR><BR>MMIS boss</P> <P>I suppose if you were killing Mayong on a reqular basis before, a romp thru EH isnt so bad. Personally I agree 100% with the above comment. Expecially if MM is the end mob for the next epic line (and according to some, lore says he is). Theres no reason to make a 6+ hour zone a prerequisite for completion of the next epic quest.</P> <P>Make individual mobs as hard as you want, just dont try and take our time away from us.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Nobody complained that SotL took 6+ hours when it first came out for the not so-great guilds. Yet when EH comes out, people complained. Completely odd, imo.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>1.) SotL had a ton of named mobs that were always there.... not a chance to have them up. :p</P> <P>2.) It is fine to have a long raid zone (I was hoping they would put one in because I was getting sick of the small raid zones) BUT it shouldn't be mandatory to clear that zone to have a chance in another. Especially when there is a lack of endgame raids in EoF expansion.</P>

[EasternKing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P>Ok, we'll heres a finer look at progression then...</P> <P>MMIS named<BR><BR>EH named<BR><BR>MMIS boss</P> <P>I suppose if you were killing Mayong on a reqular basis before, a romp thru EH isnt so bad. Personally I agree 100% with the above comment. Expecially if MM is the end mob for the next epic line (and according to some, lore says he is). Theres no reason to make a 6+ hour zone a prerequisite for completion of the next epic quest.</P> <P>Make individual mobs as hard as you want, just dont try and take our time away from us.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Nobody complained that SotL took 6+ hours when it first came out for the not so-great guilds. Yet when EH comes out, people complained. Completely odd, imo.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>im so happy ...ive been waiting for one of you disso ultrahardcore (leaving ur pc on and staying in a zone for 50+ hrs and using an exploit on menderbotts is now the definition of what it takes to be hardcoe) to bring up Spirits of the lost raid</P> <P>yeah it was hard ...yes the trash were hard ..yes it took an unpresidented amount of time compared to all previous instant raid content, but your not mentioning one glaring FACT . :</P> <P><STRONG><U>Everything</U></STRONG> in that zone dropped<STRONG><U> Fabled chests</U></STRONG>(ie everything could and had a fairly high % chance to drop metal) ...<STRONG><U>TRASH </U></STRONG>dropped <U><STRONG>FABLED GEAR</STRONG> </U>and master spells in T5 ..yet you all said its stupid for trash to drop fabled gear in T7  ..im sorry i dont follow</P> <P>ohh wait i do ...SoTL was that hard in T5 only the top end guilds could successfully farm it ..so it was perfectly fine then for everything to be dropping fabled gear and master spells </P> <P>cut to T7 and zones with trash unless there uber hard shouldnt be dropping loot not even trash loot. ...in fact you guys have stated its dumb and lame to get rewarded for killing trash ..where wass your hue and out cry inT5 over SoTL ?!?!??! there wasnt any because only the top %s per server could actually make any head way in that zone</P> <P>ive said it before and ill say it again your a bunch of [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing <STRONG><U>HYPOCRITES<BR></U></STRONG></P><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:38 PM</span>

[Illustrious]

Nobody complained that SotL took 6+ hours when it first came out for the not so-great guilds. Yet when EH comes out, people complained. Completely odd, imo. <P></P> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=427219107" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Calaglin</FONT></A>, Illusionist of <A href="http://www.eq2disso.com/" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Dissolution</FONT></A> on Nektulos</DIV> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Nobody much is complaining at EH taking hours or days to finish EH, (5 days i think it took the only guild on my server to take down Woushi in total, and thats with the menderbot bug which no doubt most/all of these raid guilds are using to their advantage) .</P> <P>What people are worried about is that maybe doing that zone will be a pre requisit to even advance past the first namer in MMIS or something equally ridiculas.</P> <P>The difference between this and SotL was that completeing SotL didnt make any other of the main raid zones easier or doable.</P> <P>Having 1 huge zone that almost only the true HC guilds will complete is fine in my opinion, but making that zone required to have a go at the only other zone in EoF with more than 4 namers is crazy.</P> <P>How many average non HC non contested camping raiders will want to stay at least another year for next expansion to be able to raid more than clockwork and FTH? Not many i  would wager. Seen as KoS is already stale and pretty much only worth farming to quickly equip new guildmembers 2 new zones just blows..</P><p>Message Edited by Illustrious on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:56 PM</span>

[Computer MAn]

SOTL also had a 6 day lockout the SECOND you zoned into the zone. If you wanted to zone in and clear trash be my guest but your still taking the same lockout as the rest of us not some weak 12 hour lockout. And the trash in Spirits was as hard as some of the Labs nameds if you weren't geared to do it so personally I found it fine.<div></div>

[Dogm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>but if they make it so you need to clear EH to kill anything in MMIS then alot of people will be [Removed for Content]. </P> <P>2 raid zones in EoF expansion are not going to hold peoples attention until next expansion. (since alot of people don't have 10+ hours to kill all of EH)</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It means if can can't kill named in EH, then you have no reason to be in MIS.   Just because you want the raid zone to be easy to cater to you, doesn't mean thats what the intended progression was.   And if you aren't capable of  killing named in EH, or in MIS, then there are still KoS raids that drop good loot to help you progress.    As the other side of this arguement keeps bringing up    This is T7B,  if this was T8 then sure you could argue that theres no raid zones for you to kill,  but that isn't the case. If you can't kill T7B then gear up on T7A first.</P> <P>As far as the Progression list of MIS Named <  EH Named < MIS Boss,   that is just silly and you are really stretching here.   Think of DT pre EoF, if your guild couldn't kill the dragons for the access quest then you had no business in the zone.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Judist]

<DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>As far as the Progression list of MIS Named <  EH Named < MIS Boss,   that is just silly and you are really stretching here.   Think of DT pre EoF, if your guild couldn't kill the dragons for the access quest then you had no business in the zone.</FONT></P> <P>What am I stretching? DT acess progress aside, Hurler and Fitz were still easy. In fact, when HASNT the normal named in any given raid zone been harder than the boss? (Very rare exceptions aside). Labs was your starter zone, but you could clear most of HoS, LoA, ToS and the 2 easiest named in DT <U>without being able to drop Vyemm</U>. In fact, if you had access ANYONE could <U>start</U> off in these zones.</P> <P>Your wrong. My buisness isnt having to kill EH named to drop named in MMIS. Maybe Mayong, but not the rest by a long shot. Never has progression meant each epic HAS to be sucessfully harder. To think otherwise is to ignore the last 7 tiers of content.</P> <P>Think outside the box.</P> <P> </P></DIV><p>Message Edited by BeatinGuts on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:48 PM</span>

[Roriondesexiest]

<P>So what are we left with if EH takes 2 freakin days to complete.</P> <P> </P> <P>Clockwork - 2x type raid zone for 4x raid meaning one thing in that zone drops chest, the named.</P> <P>FTH - I like this zone.  Fun strats can be used or you can burn things down.</P> <P>EH - 2 day raid (yes you say some guilds are doing this in 5-7 hrs, but it is the same people saying they do it in 5-7 hours so not many game wide clearing it in that time)</P> <P>MMIS - If you have to complete a 2 day raid to do much in here what's the point.</P> <P>So in the end we are left with 1 and a half new raid zones in EoF that the MAJORITY of the people in the game will be doing.</P>

[Mycka]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>IKilled007 wrote:<div><blockquote>Nice try, hero. Let me tell you something about the guilds that got there first. Ever hear of Ebonlore/Malice? Back when dragons had loot tables 15 items long, those guys were pulling mobs into walls to cancel out the AOEs. You think people don't know that most mobs are bugged when the first guilds get to them? That they can be exploited and farmed for months before it comes to the Devs' attention? And that only after you've farmed the hell out of them you begin whining for fixes? We do know. We've seen it firsthand. So spare me the talk about how much easier things are now. There has been a combat change, my friend. We got pushed back to the middle of the curve on all stats. Or maybe you're not familiar with the mitigation and avoidance changes. If that's the case, just do a seach on the forums and you can have it explained to you why killing these mobs now is a lot harder than killing them when you did it. You can read post after post about how Guild [x] could take down the Drake or Tarinax or whatever on a weekly basis before the changes, but post change, they can't beat it at all.Well we never had it easy like you did. We never got to use any exploits (of which there were hundreds, documented on these very forums -- just do some searches for Ebonlore/Malice), and we never fought these mobs pre-combat change. But we can beat them. So don't be surprised when our guild is getting server firsts or even worldwide firsts as of the next expansion. But talk is cheap. We'll have to see what we see.</blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>Of course, if you use Malice as your example for what a hardcore raiding guild is, you're not gonna have a good opinion about this kind of guilds. Not every guilds are exploiting, and a lot of them have been and are still killing the hardest mobs legit, with a gear that's not even better than what you probably have now. If you think the only thing you need to catch up with the best raiding guilds is a better gear, you're up for a huge disapointment. And these guilds are also reporting every bugs they encounter, as soon as they find them, one of them being actually very vocal about it, you probably heard about them.Since you're there talking about the difficulty in DoF, let me remind you all the nerfs Terrorantula and Urzyd recieved, how most epic mobs were basically impossible in the first 2 months after the release, and when they were somehow killed, they were dropping a wood chest at the very best, with some treasured druid boots or helms I don't remember exactly. There was absolutely NO itemization. Things got slowly fixed when the casual guilds started to raid with their first lvl 60 players. Don't you remember how it became easy to clean GoAA and CoA and get some good gear after that, and that STILL only the same first guilds got to kill Juranata and the 2 other final named in PPR, cleaned pedestal of sky, and that only a handfull of them killed the master djinn. Did they all exploit there too? Of course not.As far as I'm concerned, I've never seen a chest with 15 items, nor have I seen a mob not "AoEing" when into a wall, and you can't dps or debuff a mob if it's stuck in a wall anyway so I don't see the point, as soon as it happens the tank will try to put the mob back in the right spot, unless he's an idiot. Yes there were exploits used to clean PoS at first (coercers FTW), but only 1 or 2 guilds used them, and it got quickly fixed after that.I'm not going to talk about the nerfs in KoS, my post is already long enough. I'll just admit that mobs in KoS were indeed harder when EoF was released, because of the combat changes, but now they are fixed and were actually made easier than before EoF release, you can find about it on this forum too, since you like to search for facts. And I really wonder what you've seen firsthand, because if you were there already raiding, you'd know about it all already, and you would have been killing mobs before every one else wouldn't you.Thanks for saying the best guilds are exploiting though, it's the loser's way to congratulate someone else on his achievements, so it can only be a compliment from their point of view.

[Krontak]

Has anyone even done the new MMIS?  Are the stakes an actual requirement?

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>dalessit wrote:So what are we left with if EH takes 2 freakin days to complete.<hr></blockquote>It doesn't take 2 days.

[Illustrious]

It doesn't take 2 days. <P></P> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=427219107" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Calaglin</FONT></A>, Illusionist of <A href="http://www.eq2disso.com/" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Dissolution</FONT></A> on Nektulos</DIV> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Even if it takes 10 hours or so its still [I cannot control my vocabulary]. How many people can ever get an entire raidforce for that long? It sure doesnt show skill to log on that long, some degree pf organisation sure but mainly just a raidforce that has a lack of any RL to make people log.</P>