Raid Instances - Option to leave zone open

[Langaan]

<DIV>I understand and agree with the purpose of lock-out timers on raid zones, but to my knowledge these timers are meant to prevent people from "farming" these instances every day for loot.  What this does unfortunately is force all raiding capable guilds, whether they are hardcore or not, to start over every single time they raid a zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This to me is something that could be changed without taking away the restriction that prevents farming.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As of now, let's take labs for example.</DIV> <DIV>If you enter labs, you are locked out for 12 hours.  If you kill a named you are locked out for a little more than 5 days.  This means raid guilds can more or less hit this zone once a week, which is fine.  But, what about the guilds that are not hardcore, and the guilds and players that absolutely depend on pick-up raids to see this content?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand there are many many guilds capable of clearing labs, and some can clear it quite fast.  But I also know there are probably about 5 or more guilds that cannot finish lab because of TIME for every 1 guild that can clear it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, my question is, why can we not have the option to "continue where we left off" in these zones?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't speak for other guilds, but I know my guild would greatly benefit and enjoy this game alot more if we were able to start a zone, and go back into the zone the next week where we left off the week before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This means that next friday, when i go to labs and try to zone in, i could get the option to either start a fresh instance, OR conitue a previous instance.  In the case where we continue, all trash and named mobs we killed the week before would still be dead.  Hence, it gives us an opportunity to get further into the zone without giving us any advantage over any other guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seems fair and reasonable to me, and I imagine there are many guilds out there who would benefit from this and enjoy the game more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ofcourse this wouldnt work on zones such as aoax4 as the trash respawns, but zones like that arent the issue as it only takes a few minutes to get to teh end of the zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm referring to zones such as Lab/Lyceum/DT etc....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless I am missing something, the option to continue a raid zone would benefit alot of people, and would not negatively effect anyone at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>one other thing that would help with raid guilds such as the one I am in is for zones like aoax4's lockout on failure to be based on boss kill.  If we enter the zone and fail to kill the boss, there is NO reason we should not be able to come back and try the next night.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Has this idea or any similar ideas ever been posted which have a response from a dev?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Langaan on <span class=date_text>12-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:18 PM</span>

[Margen]

I personally just wish they would not have the lock out timer start before you kill something.  DT as soon as you zone in you have a mob in front of you, and this haze floating in front of you that if you accidently click you zone out.  In Lyc, one of our rangers was clicking on his buffs and accidently zoned out, locked out for 12 hours.  I understand why they have a 12 hour lock out if you don't kill a named, but have the lock out start when you kill the first mob.

[Starness]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Margen wrote:<BR> I personally just wish they would not have the lock out timer start before you kill something.  DT as soon as you zone in you have a mob in front of you, and this haze floating in front of you that if you accidently click you zone out.  In Lyc, one of our rangers was clicking on his buffs and accidently zoned out, locked out for 12 hours.  I understand why they have a 12 hour lock out if you don't kill a named, but have the lock out start when you kill the first mob.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Then that would lead to farming of named for relic, which was a huge problem with Labs when KoS came out. And DT does not start a lockout for anyone until you are past the first room, and even then it only sets for the first person to run down the hall. To truely lock the whole raid out of DT you have to kill a named.</P> <P>The pick up where you left off idea is interesting, but I doubt SOE has the resources to save all the zone info for those zones like that.</P><p>Message Edited by Starness on <span class=date_text>12-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:17 PM</span>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Margen wrote:<BR> I personally just wish they would not have the lock out timer start before you kill something.  DT as soon as you zone in you have a mob in front of you, and this haze floating in front of you that if you accidently click you zone out.  In Lyc, one of our rangers was clicking on his buffs and accidently zoned out, locked out for 12 hours.  I understand why they have a 12 hour lock out if you don't kill a named, but have the lock out start when you kill the first mob.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>for that i think they should just make "escape" un-usable in raid instances, or make sure it keeps the person in zone.</P> <P> </P> <P>I truly am just concerned that the lock-out timers and the amount of time it takes to reach boss mobs in some zones for some guilds is making raiding more frustrating than it is fun.</P> <P> </P> <P>its the same thing over and over..  with labs, we zone in, clear trash, kill alzid, trio etc.... get to corslander, and this is where we struglle.</P> <P> </P> <P>by the time we hit corslander, and thats IF we dont get oneshotted over and over by the mob before him, it is already late in the night/early in the morning and people are getting tired.</P> <P> </P> <P>I know in some cases our raid has stomped through everything and been ready to pull the mob b4 cors in about an hour, which is extremely fast for us.  but that was just one or 2 times, the majority of the time it can take 2 hours, and then if we struggle on that mob or corslander it can be 3-4 hours before we are even considering a pull on vyemm.</P> <P> </P> <P>after 4 hours, people are tired, sometimes frustrated, and its 1-4 am in the morning for most of us.  </P> <P> </P> <P>I understand some guilds can stomp through in an hour, pull vyemm and kill him without troubles, but we cant, and we never will. </P> <P> </P> <P>the point is, all raid mobs have tricks and strategies to beat them.</P> <P>with these lockout timers, and the fact that most guilds do infact have a time limit, it just makes sense to make this change.</P> <P> </P> <P>I speak for guilds that raid 2-4 times a week, 3-4 hours a night, and sometimes depend on pick-ups.  We also dont always have the best classes, but most guilds have this problem.  my point is that our guild has the ability to kill almost any mob in the game (almost), but we just cant get the practice in to do it.  If we had cleared the zone all except vyemm, than had the option to continue the following week, we could start fresh, awake and alert, positive etc... and get a good shot at killing vyeem.</P> <P>but if its at the end of a 3-4 hour raid, its just impossible with people leaving, falling asleep etc...</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>I am really quite tired of having members raid each of our raid nights, go weeks without loot, give it their all, just to finally get to a mob we havent killed yet and have everyone asleep, tired or simply un-alert.  Then I have to deal with members upset and sometime even looking elswhere for guilds that see this content.</P> <P> </P> <P>its hard enough to fill a raid guild with members that have to be able to raid certain nights at certain times, but when you start doing the same thing over and over, combine that with the inablitiy to even progress in aoa due to the eof expansion/combat changes, it just makes sense to have the option to continue in a raid zone.</P> <P> </P> <P>I and im pretty sure everyone else in my guild would much rather spend 3 hours wiping on lord vyemm than we would 3 hours of killing trash/named that we kill every single week, just to have to call it a night when we get to vyemm.</P>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Starness wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Margen wrote:<BR> I personally just wish they would not have the lock out timer start before you kill something.  DT as soon as you zone in you have a mob in front of you, and this haze floating in front of you that if you accidently click you zone out.  In Lyc, one of our rangers was clicking on his buffs and accidently zoned out, locked out for 12 hours.  I understand why they have a 12 hour lock out if you don't kill a named, but have the lock out start when you kill the first mob.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Then that would lead to farming of named for relic, which was a huge problem with Labs when KoS came out. And DT does not start a lockout for anyone until you are past the first room, and even then it only sets for the first person to run down the hall. To truely lock the whole raid out of DT you have to kill a named.</P> <P>The pick up where you left off idea is interesting, <STRONG>but I doubt SOE has the resources to save all the zone info for those zones like that.</STRONG></P> <P>Message Edited by Starness on <SPAN class=date_text>12-04-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:17 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>can a dev respond to this?</P> <P> </P> <P>i hate to say it, but im pretty sure wow has this ability.  might be different somehow, but ive been told a raid zone stays open for a week in wow.</P> <P> </P> <P>if this idea isn't possible, it'd be nice to know for sure.</P>

[Solu]

Pretty neat idea.  The only problem I can think of it off the top of my head is an exploit of leaving zone repairing then re-entering the zone. 

[robbro]

<P>It is possible, and yes Wow does have that. EQ1 had it starting with Plane of Time. I don't see how it would be that much more work to keep a simple db of what nameds were kill on a particular instance. keep a simple db list of the named killed, add a standard 8-12 hour lockout once you leave the zone, the trash could be gone up to the point of your last named killed or every trash mob could be respawned.</P> <P> </P>

[FLLonewu]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Langaan wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Starness wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Margen wrote: <div></div>I personally just wish they would not have the lock out timer start before you kill something.  DT as soon as you zone in you have a mob in front of you, and this haze floating in front of you that if you accidently click you zone out.  In Lyc, one of our rangers was clicking on his buffs and accidently zoned out, locked out for 12 hours.  I understand why they have a 12 hour lock out if you don't kill a named, but have the lock out start when you kill the first mob. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Then that would lead to farming of named for relic, which was a huge problem with Labs when KoS came out. And DT does not start a lockout for anyone until you are past the first room, and even then it only sets for the first person to run down the hall. To truely lock the whole raid out of DT you have to kill a named.</p> <p>The pick up where you left off idea is interesting, <strong>but I doubt SOE has the resources to save all the zone info for those zones like that.</strong></p> <p>Message Edited by Starness on <span class="date_text">12-04-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:17 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>can a dev respond to this?</p> <p>i hate to say it, but im pretty sure wow has this ability.  might be different somehow, but ive been told a raid zone stays open for a week in wow.</p> <p>if this idea isn't possible, it'd be nice to know for sure.</p><hr></blockquote>FIrst off, this ISN'T WoW, so if you REALLY want that, go play WoW again...Secondly, just how do you think this would be done technically?  Everyone has a 'save point'?  Talk about a farming exploit....  Only the raid leader has a save point?  So do you need the exact same raid to re-enter again or can you change it up...again sounds like open to too much exploitation.  If the save point is on the server side, thats alot of resources to keep all those save points that may never be used again, and then what happens when a save point is lost (b/c you know its going to happen)?  I can hear the screaming already.  If the save point is saved locally, it won't take someone long to figure out how to edit it and exploit it.  Save points are a feature of single-player games, not MMOs.  Once you've done the zone 3 or 4 times you should have the pattern and neccessary strats down, and if you do the zone every week you should only be getting better at the early parts of the zone so they will go quicker.  If you're having problems with the early to middle part of the zone, you're not going to have much success on the end part (with the exception of DT, Tyranix is probably the 2d easiest named in the zone, but there are still things you have to learn about that encounter).  If you really want to "save the zone" park a character in the zone till everyone's lockout is up, and hope they don't shut down the servers..."Pretty neat idea.  The only problem I can think of it off the top of my head is an exploit of leaving zone repairing then re-entering the zone. "Depending on the zone, the lock out starts on entry, again, to prevernt farming, so zoning out to repair you just locked yourself out for usually 12 hrs.  Killing a named starts the longer lockout.  Only zone that does not have a lockout on entering IIRC is Deathtoll, and that was explained above</div><p>Message Edited by FLLonewulf on <span class=date_text>12-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:07 PM</span>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FLLonewulf wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Starness wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Margen wrote:<BR> I personally just wish they would not have the lock out timer start before you kill something.  DT as soon as you zone in you have a mob in front of you, and this haze floating in front of you that if you accidently click you zone out.  In Lyc, one of our rangers was clicking on his buffs and accidently zoned out, locked out for 12 hours.  I understand why they have a 12 hour lock out if you don't kill a named, but have the lock out start when you kill the first mob.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Then that would lead to farming of named for relic, which was a huge problem with Labs when KoS came out. And DT does not start a lockout for anyone until you are past the first room, and even then it only sets for the first person to run down the hall. To truely lock the whole raid out of DT you have to kill a named.</P> <P>The pick up where you left off idea is interesting, <STRONG>but I doubt SOE has the resources to save all the zone info for those zones like that.</STRONG></P> <P>Message Edited by Starness on <SPAN class=date_text>12-04-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:17 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>can a dev respond to this?</P> <P> </P> <P>i hate to say it, but im pretty sure wow has this ability.  might be different somehow, but ive been told a raid zone stays open for a week in wow.</P> <P> </P> <P>if this idea isn't possible, it'd be nice to know for sure.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>FIrst off, this ISN'T WoW, so if you REALLY want that, go play WoW again...<BR><BR>Secondly, just how do you think this would be done technically?  Everyone has a 'save point'?  Talk about a farming exploit....  Only the raid leader has a save point?  So do you need the exact same raid to re-enter again or can you change it up...again sounds like open to too much exploitation.  If the save point is on the server side, thats alot of resources to keep all those save points that may never be used again, and then what happens when a save point is lost (b/c you know its going to happen)?  I can hear the screaming already.  If the save point is saved locally, it won't take someone long to figure out how to edit it and exploit it.  <BR><BR>Save points are a feature of single-player games, not MMOs.  Once you've done the zone 3 or 4 times you should have the pattern and neccessary strats down, and if you do the zone every week you should only be getting better at the early parts of the zone so they will go quicker.  If you're having problems with the early to middle part of the zone, you're not going to have much success on the end part (with the exception of DT, Tyranix is probably the 2d easiest named in the zone, but there are still things you have to learn about that encounter).  If you really want to "save the zone" park a character in the zone till everyone's lockout is up, and hope they don't shut down the servers...<BR><BR><BR>"Pretty neat idea.  The only problem I can think of it off the top of my head is an exploit of leaving zone repairing then re-entering the zone. "<BR><BR>Depending on the zone, the lock out starts on entry, again, to prevernt farming, so zoning out to repair you just locked yourself out for usually 12 hrs.  Killing a named starts the longer lockout.  Only zone that does not have a lockout on entering IIRC is Deathtoll, and that was explained above<BR><BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by FLLonewulf on <SPAN class=date_text>12-04-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:07 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>first of all, i dont want to go play wow and never did.</P> <P>secondly, the guild leaders could have the save point i guess, not really sure</P> <P>and no, you wouldnt need the exact same raid to go back in.  how exactly would someone exploit a zone like this?  by someone taking that saved zone and grabbing other players who werent there the first time?  i suppose they could do that, but how and why is that an exploit?  who does it give un unfair advantage to?</P> <P>as far as open zones, there could be a timer on them as well, ie: saved zones only stay open for 7 days or something</P> <P>and as far as it getting easier each time, you've somehow completely misread my post yet hit the nail directly on the head.</P> <P>the point is, weve been doing raids for months in labs, someimtes we get near the end of the zone faster, sometiems we hit bumps and it takes a cpl hours.  but in any case, we have yet to have the necassary time left at the end to have a try at vyemm.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Langaan]

so, again, all Im asking for is an ability like a described so that guilds like mine that run short of time for whatever reason, have the option to save and progress in the zone.

[HomeChicken]

<DIV>only down side i can see of this is the ability to leave and get repaired / switch out classes and go back in</DIV> <DIV>the lockouts we have now are the only thing that prevents most new raid content from being beaten the first day</DIV> <DIV>it would definitely help the not so hardcore raiders out there</DIV> <DIV>but it would make most content too easy for the hardcore raiders since in theory you could learn everything about a zone in one lockout where it may have taken 2-3 trips to figure out before</DIV> <DIV>/shrugs</DIV> <DIV>dont think its a terrible idea, but i see some downsides to it</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Geothe]

<P>I do like the idea, as yes, it would help the "more casual" guilds play with raiding more, and let them slowly work through a Raid zone over a couple of weeks, a couple hours at a time.</P> <P>Implementing along these lines may be a bit of a problem, so limits would be needed.</P> <P>I'd think something along the lines of:</P> <P>--Have the saving of an instance progression as a guild function, not a player function.  With "privs" to do it granted to Guild Leader.</P> <P>--A guild can only have a single save point "saved" at one time.  No building up saves for a dozen different raid zones at once.</P> <P>--Maybe have a minimum guild level before the "raid save" ability is gained, as well as possibly a minimum player base in the guild (not characters, but accounts).  </P> <P>The combination of the last 2 would limit the total amount of resources tied into saving by limiting the number of guilds that are able to save.</P> <P>--Have the save expire after like 1-2 weeks.  </P> <P> </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>HomeChicken wrote:only down side i can see of this is the ability to leave and get repaired / switch out classes and go back in<hr></blockquote>Sadly, you can already switch out classes, need another healer? Have a DPS class /camp out, and a healer zone in, need a DPS Class instead of a healer? Do the opposite. Need repairs? Pop down a mender or use repair kits.

[Fatkiddown]

For example: with wow say in Molten Core you clear up to elemental boss A and kill him and run out of time. So the next day you go back and all the elemental boss trash that was leading up to boss A is now gone but you still have some general trash.  So you do this with boss B etc or complete the whole zone whatever you have time for.  After 7 days no matter what, the zone resets.With EQ2 it seems like it would be better maybe to have all cleared mobs not come back that would prevent guilds that took a week to complete from getting more loot than guilds that can do all in a few hours.   So end result is same amount of loot possibilties but you have the option to continue the next day if everyone is getting tired after 5hrs.  As for the repairing armor outside between times why does it matter.  It still costs the player money either way, be it in repair kits in zone or mender out of zone.  I mean the high end guilds can probably go thru sometimes and if played well noone dies, do they just enjoy the fact that we have to spend money from repairs from dying. Main point being is the guilds that are having trouble with these zones just need to practice practice on the Bosses to work out a stategy and get all their players working together.   But it is hard to do that when you have to kill trash and easier names for couple of hours before you get a chance to practice on stuff deeper in.   I don't think that means... omg that will make the game soooo easy, but it would  make it more enjoyable for the non hard-core crowd, which i'm sure will have a field day with this post but who cares it is just my 2 cents <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And no i'm not a wow player coming over trying to make eq2 more wow like, I played eq2 from release, but I did play wow for 2months over the summer with some friends from work and didn't really like the community and cheesy graphics that much.  At least now I can say yes I played wow it is fun in it's own cartoonish way but lacks depth in so many ways.<div></div>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatkiddown wrote:<BR>  As for the repairing armor outside between times why does it matter.  It still costs the player money either way, be it in repair kits in zone or mender out of zone.  I mean the high end guilds can probably go thru sometimes and if played well noone dies, do they just enjoy the fact that we have to spend money from repairs from dying. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>yep.</P> <P> </P> <P>ps:  i edited OP to add this re: AoAx4</P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG>one other thing that would help with raid guilds such as the one I am in is for zones like aoax4's lockout on failure to be based on boss kill.  If we enter the zone and fail to kill the boss, there is NO reason we should not be able to come back and try the next night.</STRONG><BR></P>

[Antryg Mistrose]

Can't you do this currently? For Labs anyway.Leave someone online in the zone (can be an alt if they need to repair) -  Have them invite people in next time and form the raid inside the zone around them.I admit the one time I tried this, the raid went to a seperate instance, but I think that was because it was formed up outside.  I know individual groupmates join the person in the instance, and also someone who camped out inside the raid zone, ended up inside the correct one (and locked out of the new instance btw).It just takes someone who can leave a PC running.<div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Antryg Mistrose wrote:Can't you do this currently? For Labs anyway.Leave someone online in the zone (can be an alt if they need to repair) -  Have them invite people in next time and form the raid inside the zone around them.I admit the one time I tried this, the raid went to a seperate instance, but I think that was because it was formed up outside.  I know individual groupmates join the person in the instance, and also someone who camped out inside the raid zone, ended up inside the correct one (and locked out of the new instance btw).It just takes someone who can leave a PC running.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Everybody would have to camp in the zone and that person woudl have to stay online, otherwise you will lose the instance.

[Antryg Mistrose]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>Antryg Mistrose wrote:Can't you do this currently? For Labs anyway.Leave someone online in the zone (can be an alt if they need to repair) -  Have them invite people in next time and form the raid inside the zone around them.I admit the one time I tried this, the raid went to a seperate instance, but I think that was because it was formed up outside.  I know individual groupmates join the person in the instance, and also someone who camped out inside the raid zone, ended up inside the correct one (and locked out of the new instance btw).It just takes someone who can leave a PC running.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Everybody would have to camp in the zone and that person woudl have to stay online, otherwise you will lose the instance.<hr></blockquote> Have you actually tried this? or is this just your usual pseudo-authoritative mouthings? I am CERTAIN a group can get back in without having to camp in the zone - I fail to see why its not possible for them to then leave the group and form others. The procedure is: All but one person leave the raid zone. That person invite some ones alt to group. Alt zones in to raidzone. Alt stays there overnight or whatever (assuming no server reset). Alt invites others to group. Others zone in to same held open instance Up to there I know it works as I've done it on several occasions.  You do have to be careful of lockout timers - no named killed, then only need hold the zone overnight, named, and you need to hope there is no server reset for the several days you need to hold it. Invitess leave Alt's group as Alt invites more in Invitees form their own groups & eventually raid<p>Message Edited by Antryg Mistrose on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:09 AM</span>

[Ombri]

It's actually fairly simple to figure out how to set it up to prevent exploiting.- Restrict it so that the raid leader needs to toggle the save feature on entering the zone, before the first mob dies.- Once the instance has been saved, anyone who is in zone, or who zones in has their success timer for the zone set - even if they don't kill anything (part of the penalty you pay for extending the instance).- In a saved instance, respawns will be flagged not to drop loot (the other part of the penalty you pay for extending).- The instance will be kept accessible for up to one week (two weeks?). At the end of that period, anyone still inside (either online or camped out) is given a one way trip back outside the entrance and the zone is closed.- If everyone in the raid leaves the zone in any way other than by camping out, the zone is closed.- Make any quests that require location updates in raid zones also require mob deaths to discourage keeping instances open to cycle people through (or do what they did with Godking, and set a time limit on the death of the appropriate mob after which you can't get the update).The "zoning in replacements" thing is a red herring. You can do it now by camping someone out and having a replacement zone in. Like say a rezbot, or a repair kit delivery artiste.

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<P>I don't see it happening because of the overheads that would be involved in "saving" every raid instance. Not to mention the additional coding.</P> <P>I agree the lockout on places like labs on zone in is ridiculous; having it happen the first time you kill a mob would prevent relic farming and make much more sense.</P> <P>Bear in mind, however, part of the challenge with a zone like Labs is being able to clear it in a reasonable length of time, and without visiting a mender. If it's taking more than 2-3 hours, then you need to chat with your tank and healers, and work towards pulling faster. It will also help to parse encounters, and have your DPS give some thought over how to do more damage if they're not around the 1k+ mark. This can just mean simple changes to raid structure; having a dirge + coercer in the MT group, a troub and illu with the casters, etc. </P> <P>I know this might sound like a lot of effort for a casual guild, but the time it takes to clear a zone is just as important a factor as being able to beat the encounters.</P>

[Fatkiddown]

We do parse and have the coercer troub etc, the biggest difference we've seen so far is we we have the brigand that can debuff.  Brigand debuffs really boost overall dps by alot.  Brigand is the main one we don't have at the moment.  Any 70 Brigs LFGU?    lol<div></div>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>I know this might sound like a lot of effort for a casual guild, but the time it takes to clear a zone is just as important a factor as being able to beat the encounters.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I totally disagree with that, for 2 reasons:</P> <P>#1 -  It makes absolutley no sense at all to have 90% or more of the guilds in this game unable to see end content in a reasonable amount of time.  I mean seriously, everything you said is true, but the fact is I already know all of it.</P> <P>#2 - If SOE#'s intentions were to have "time" factored into the "challenge" of a particular raid sone, they would have put a time limit on completing the zone.</P> <P> </P> <P>Come on, I and many others have done lab many many times, we've seen vyemm, but have yet to pull him due to time.</P> <P>I'm tired of getting to where we want to be, wanting to pull and kill a mob, but cant because we are shorthanded or just too [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tired.  It compunds when i think "oh , this is familiar, this is what happened last week, and the wekk b4, and the week b4.....</P> <P> </P> <P>Deathtoll access? pft.</P> <P> </P> <P>The problem isn't that we don't know to have a hate combo in mt grp, along with power regen and dps buffer in scout/mage grps etc....  I know all of that, the fact is that we are not hardcore.  Therefore, we do not always have the troub, or the drige, or the all important brigand etc...</P> <P> </P> <P>The only downfall to this is that the hardcore guilds will be able to clear the zones faster.</P> <P>So, hardcore raid guilds could have figured out and cleared lab in the first week instead of say the first 2-3 weeks, and in exchange 90% of the other raiding guilds who are more casual can clear it in a few weeks or cpl months instead of 6 months +.</P> <P>and most of all, the few weeks or cpl months it takes for the casual guilds to clear, would be much more fun as most people are interested in seeing new content.</P> <P> </P> <P>MY guild in particular suffers some nights from lack of certain classes, some of which directly effect our dps...  there are many times where I remember our dps being around 6k, which alone forces us to take much longer to kill mobs than the average hardcore raid guild with their dps at the 15-25k.</P> <P>I dont care if a hardcore guild beats the zone faster, and frankly they shouldnt care if casual guilds are given the ability to clear it faster either.  </P> <P> </P> <P>After all, harddcore raid guilds don't depend on raid instances and "who finsihed it first" to compete with others, that's what contested mobs are for.</P> <P> </P>

[Langaan]

<P>oh, and this feature does not take away any challenge, it takes away frustration.</P> <P>all guilds would still have to learn the encounters.</P> <P> </P> <P>look at our situation in particular:</P> <P> </P> <P>T-7 zones</P> <P>Labs - as described, we do weekly, have yet to try vyemm</P> <P>Lyceum - used to do weekly, but we lacked chanters back then and stopped doing it, we chose to work on aoa instead</P> <P>AoAx4 - great zones.  short, quick, very nice for casual guilds.  too bad its broken.</P> <P>Deathtoll - gonna take forever to get vyemm down, aoax4 is broken etc. so we dont even have the access to this one obvisouly.</P> <P>Halls of seeing - we havent even tried this.  we likely wont because we refuse to skip a week of lab until weve cleared it.</P> <P>EOF - well, i dont think so.</P> <P> </P> <P>so at this point, here we are making it to vyemm in lab, then BANG eof hits and itll take us a cpl weeks to adjust to those changes, another cpl months to wait for other zones to be fixed.</P> <P>bleh</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Im not asking to make mobs easier or anything like that, I just want the opportunity to fight them with the guild I am in, and I want all of them to have the same opportunity without having to go to a hardcore raid guild.</P> <P> </P> <P>as far as the right classes....</P> <P>well, because of time and lack of progression, weve lost a dirge, troub, brigand and a few other important classes in the past to other raid guilds.  </P><p>Message Edited by Langaan on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:40 AM</span>

[Langaan]

<P>as far as leaving an alt in zone, weve tried and it didnt work.  infact, the alt was out of zone within an hour (x-out)</P> <P>so, obvioulsy we did that wrong.  this week I intend to leave my own alt in zone and game running all night so we can continue the next night.</P> <P> </P> <P>hope it works.</P> <P>to bad there isnt just a feature to keep the zone open for me :/</P>

[Defender of Antonia]

<P>And how would SoE deal with multiple people who all have diffrent save points? Ie raid kills two named and thenperson A logs out. But Raid continues and kills 3 more named  losing more and more people along the way. Next day We have multiple people all with diffrent saved points.</P> <P>And camping your alt in Labs to save it open for the next day won't work. Kill one named and he'll need to stay there for 5 days.</P>

[Geothe]

<P>"And how would SoE deal with multiple people who all have diffrent save points? Ie raid kills two named and thenperson A logs out. But Raid continues and kills 3 more named  losing more and more people along the way. Next day We have multiple people all with diffrent saved points."</P> <P>Saves wouldnt be for the individual, but for the GUILD.</P>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Defender of Antonia wrote:<BR> <P>And how would SoE deal with multiple people who all have diffrent save points? Ie raid kills two named and thenperson A logs out. But Raid continues and kills 3 more named  losing more and more people along the way. Next day We have multiple people all with diffrent saved points.</P> <P>And camping your alt in Labs to save it open for the next day won't work. Kill one named and he'll need to stay there for 5 days.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>- there wouldn't be multiple save points.  Whoever zones the raid in would have the save point.  Or it could be for the guild, with option sin the guild rank system to choose who can and cannot enter saved raid zones.  (by enter i mean the people given the ability to use the saved zones are the only ones that can zone a raid into that particular saved instance)</P> <P> </P> <P>- I never said i was camping aan alt in lab.  I said I am going to bring my alt into the zone before everyone logs, and leave my alt in the zone with the game running all night.  The next day, unless the server resets sat morning which is unlikely, I should be able to invite and form a raid, have the raid join my instance, then logout and go get my main for an invite and zone in myself.</P> <P> </P> <P>We all have zone re-user timers.  Those timers can still be used, but when a GUILD has a zone saved, timers do not matter...</P> <P>- as soon as you kill a named, the 5 day + timer starts.  this would mean that you cannot enter a new instance for 5+ days, but you can enter a saved instance with any guild that has a saved instance open.  </P> <P>- Max instances per guild at any given time would be 1 per instance, or even 1 per guild.  </P> <P>Here's the details on how i think the timing should work....</P> <P> </P> <P>when you enter a zone, your timer starts for 12 hours.</P> <P>when you leave a zone after you have killed a named, a timer starts.</P> <P>the timer is 5 days+ as it is, but during that 5+ days, you do have the option to raid that zone again... the only thing is that you will be going into the same zone you were in earlier.</P> <P>as soon as the 5+days s up, the saved instance is gone and you are able to start a new one.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Langaan]

<DIV>so in easy short terms,,,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>can we have the ability to re-enter the same instance during the 5day lockout,,,,??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>would be really nice to see this post stickied, or a dev's response.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>would hate to keep rambling on about this if it isnt even possible to do.</DIV>

[Bamfa_dexter]

<DIV>How about you suck it up and just clear the zone? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Start your raids at an more early time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you run out of time then you hit the next raid zone the next day, and so on and so on.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Bamfa_dexter on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:51 PM</span>

[Computer MAn]

<div><blockquote><hr><p>- as soon as you kill a named, the 5 day + timer starts.  this would mean that you cannot enter a new instance for 5+ days, but you can enter a saved instance with any guild that has a saved instance open. </p><hr></blockquote>That line alone pretty much convinces me you have the wrong idea. That would be open to so much exploitation. For example Guild A Zones into Labs clears the zone up the end boss and saves their place and zone outGuild A has their alts (many guilds have alts capable of clearing most zones as a raid) clear labs to the end and saves before the bossContinue doing this until you run out of alts and you have a continous source of loot entering the game.Personally I think the system is fine. There is no reason to change it as already at least on my server there are 6-8 guilds that can clear labs maybe more. The last thing we need is more loot entering the game as it is already too easy to gear up. Allowing you to zone into an already clear instance will just allow you to clear content faster hence being bored faster. I will use MMiS (Mistmoore's Inner Sanctum) for an example. Guilds zone in one night and clear up to Mayong. Pull for a few hours and get tired. Log back in the next day at the named and pull Mayong for 6-7 hours every day until it dies. It would make content clearable in a week instead of 6-7 weeks or so. Now I honestly would classify myself as an elitist, I don't think so many raid zones should be clearable by so many guilds. They should be hard similar to tier 5 where very few guilds on a server can clear things. If you want to see these raid zones and clear them either A) get more hardcore or B) find a new guild. A save point would completely ruin raid zones imo and you would just see even more people running around in full fabled gear, its already meaningless enough.</div>

[Bamfa_dexter]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Soluss wrote:<BR> Pretty neat idea.  The only problem I can think of it off the top of my head is an exploit of leaving zone repairing then re-entering the zone. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ever heard of a mender bot?</P>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bamfa_dexter wrote:<BR> <DIV>How about you suck it up and just clear the zone? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Start your raids at an more early time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you run out of time then you hit the next raid zone the next day, and so on and so on.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Bamfa_dexter on <SPAN class=date_text>12-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:51 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yer right, what was I thinking...  </P> <P>thanks for the advice.</P>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Computer MAn wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>- as soon as you kill a named, the 5 day + timer starts.  this would mean that you cannot enter a new instance for 5+ days, but you can enter a saved instance with any guild that has a saved instance open. <BR></P> <P> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That line alone pretty much convinces me you have the wrong idea. That would be open to so much exploitation. For example <BR><BR>Guild A Zones into Labs clears the zone up the end boss and saves their place and zone out<BR>Guild A has their alts (many guilds have alts capable of clearing most zones as a raid) clear labs to the end and saves before the boss<BR><BR>Continue doing this until you run out of alts and you have a continous source of loot entering the game.<BR><BR>Personally I think the system is fine. There is no reason to change it as already at least on my server there are 6-8 guilds that can clear labs maybe more. The last thing we need is more loot entering the game as it is already too easy to gear up. Allowing you to zone into an already clear instance will just allow you to clear content faster hence being bored faster. I will use MMiS (Mistmoore's Inner Sanctum) for an example. Guilds zone in one night and clear up to Mayong. Pull for a few hours and get tired. Log back in the next day at the named and pull Mayong for 6-7 hours every day until it dies. It would make content clearable in a week instead of 6-7 weeks or so. <BR><BR>Now I honestly would classify myself as an elitist, I don't think so many raid zones should be clearable by so many guilds. They should be hard similar to tier 5 where very few guilds on a server can clear things. If you want to see these raid zones and clear them either A) get more hardcore or B) find a new guild. A save point would completely ruin raid zones imo and you would just see even more people running around in full fabled gear, its already meaningless enough.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>theres an easy fix to that, simply have it so that the only people that can enter the saved zone are people who were in it the first time.  Any other people can enter IF there 5+day lockout timer is up.</P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG>If you want to see these raid zones and clear them either A) get more hardcore or B) find a new guild. </STRONG></P> <P>That is just ridiculous, and is exactly the reason I want this option.</P>

[Solu]

<P>mender bots on my server cost about 10 plat or more... as apposed to the 25 gold i pay for repairs.</P> <P>Also i am fine with the system as it currently is with the lockouts.  The only  thing i have a problem with atm is AOAx4 we get slaughtered post EOF even on trash  MT group with 10k resists still get nailed for 4k +dmg to aoes off the trash we just can keep up with that and the seemingly 3 mil + hp on each trash mob. We have cleared labs for months, have little trouble with lyceum and have taken out Harla Dar with ease but AOAx4 is our roadblock atm.  Of course this part is for another thread and I dont want to derail this one.  I just was explaining what type of guild we are.</P> <P>To the OP I feel your pain as we are a casual guild that grew over the past 6 months and started with a little trash in Labs and overtime worked on clearing the zone.  All I can tell you is this... as you kill more and more every week and you get better gear for your raid everyweek the zone becomes easier.  We raid about twice a week and labs used to take us about 4 hours or more... thats with breaks because we have alot of family people in guild that need breaks for dinner, take care of kids etc.  Our last clear took us about 2 and a half hours.  Keep plugging away it will get faster.</P><p>Message Edited by Soluss on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:56 PM</span>

[whytakemine]

<P>To the OP, I feel your pain, but I think if you stick with it just a bit longer you will be over the hump.  I usually raid with an alliance, and most people only raid 1-2 times a week.  </P> <P>When we started we were where you are - low dps (7-8k, 9k on a good fight) and we were typically naked and tired by the time we got to vyemm (if we did).  We rarely have a shaman, and not always a brigand, and typically have 1-2 bards and no chanters.  Often we have 7-8 tanks.  In other words, our class balance is less than ideal, but we got better and our dps is closer to 11-12k now, sometimes as high as 14k.  Peanuts compared to raiding guilds, but enough to get the job done in a reasonable amount of time.  As your players get better and better equiped yours too will go up and the zone will get easier and faster.</P> <P>Two suggestions to help with the frustration levels in the meantime:</P> <P>1.  Try to speed up the pulls and loot distribution.  </P> <P>2.  Skip the pardas predd wing and uncaged alzid if you really want to get to Vyemm.  If you aren't killing the rest of the named somewhat easily, realize vyemm is going to be a problem though.</P> <P>Just a word of encouragement too - labs is the longest zone I've seen when you're trying to figure it out.  Possibly because you're trying to learn the basics of raiding at the same time, but even now it's one of the longer zones we attempt.  We haven't been to HoS yet, but the other ones are short or (DT) you can bypass most the named to get to the end boss if you really want to.</P> <P>Edit: For your save point idea to be workable, you would need to make it so that you couldn't re-enter the saved instance until your timer was up.  Otherwise it would basically be giving you no lockout until you cleared the zone.  But, if you wanted to wait a week to re-enter and then had the choice of either going into a fresh instance or the saved instance, I wouldn't have a problem with that.</P><p>Message Edited by whytakemine on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:17 PM</span>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<blockquote><hr>Langaan wrote: <P>as far as leaving an alt in zone, weve tried and it didnt work.  infact, the alt was out of zone within an hour (x-out)</P> <P>so, obvioulsy we did that wrong.  this week I intend to leave my own alt in zone and game running all night so we can continue the next night.</P> <P> </P> <P>hope it works.</P> <P>to bad there isnt just a feature to keep the zone open for me :/</P><hr></blockquote> This will only work if you don't kill any names the first night, as if you do, then all the raiders involved have their lockout timer set, which will prevent them zoning into ANY instance of Labs the next night, including the held open one.Holding the zone open for 5+days to reset that lockout, might be possible, but only if there is no server reboot. Overnight is all I have successfully done.

[whytakemine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Antryg Mistrose wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote:<BR> <P>as far as leaving an alt in zone, weve tried and it didnt work.  infact, the alt was out of zone within an hour (x-out)</P> <P>so, obvioulsy we did that wrong.  this week I intend to leave my own alt in zone and game running all night so we can continue the next night.</P> <P> </P> <P>hope it works.</P> <P>to bad there isnt just a feature to keep the zone open for me :/</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This will only work if you don't kill any names the first night, as if you do, then all the raiders involved have their lockout timer set, which will prevent them zoning into ANY instance of Labs the next night, including the held open one.<BR><BR>Holding the zone open for 5+days to reset that lockout, might be possible, but only if there is no server reboot. Overnight is all I have successfully done.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Interesting idea.  Theoretically if you had 12+ people who could raid the day before you could go in, clear all the trash, leave one guy in the zone to save the instance, and have the full raid zone in the next day and just kill the named.

[Heart's Rage]

<DIV>When a guild stays in an instance zone and leaves it open, to my knowlegde this causes sevre lag for other raids coming in a day or 2 later.</DIV>

[MrMartin]

<P>I really agree with the OP that this would be a great feature.</P> <P>We are a casual guild that has a raid alliance with another casual guild.<BR>We raid T7 2 times a week where one day is Labs and the other day we switch around different targets. Each of these days we set aside 3 hours for raiding. We need to set a time limit because most of us have girlfriends, boyfriends, wifes, husbands, kids, jobs, school etc.</P> <P>Pre-EoF we worked hard every week for 3-4 months up to the point where we finally managed to kill Lord Vyemm 2 weeks in a row just before EoF was released. This took us 3-3.5 hours every time.</P> <P>Now after EoF and the combat nerf, the same 3 hours gets us to the named just before Corsolander with only 10% armor condition and this is very frustrating. So frustrating that our highest dps wizard left the game (due to the stupid combat-nerf) and several others are joining other more hardcore raiding alliances.</P> <P>Sure, with a few more weeks of practice we could probably get to Vyemm again but I don't see why we should need to relearn every encounter in Labs that we already spent 4 months learning.</P> <P>Having a save point where we could go in the next week again and start fresh at the Corsolander would indeed be great.<BR>We would not get any more loot then the hardcore uber-guilds. We would just get the oppertunity to actually finish the instance and getting more of our ppl updates for DT-access, Claymore and Wurmslayer.</P> <P>Maybe the raid-leader could be flagged and is the only one who gets the choice of letting the raid continue where they left off as an option at zone in.<BR>The raid-leader would be flagged for 8 days, giving those guilds that raid a zone every 7 days the option of continue an instance.</P> <P>Just my 2cp.</P>

[Gallenite]

<DIV>Some time in the future we <STRONG><EM>hope </EM></STRONG>to be able to move toward a system that allows for raid preservation so people can pick up where they left off over multiple days.  The only reason that we haven't so far is the huge time investment required to get there, relative to everything else that's going on.  No promises that we'll get there, but we're not against it by any means.  If we were starting over from scratch, I sincerely doubt that any of us would choose lockout timers as a mechanic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's the kind of thing that's far easier when your raids are implemented (scripts, events, etc) to support being resumed later, which is a big challenge that we face on top of getting a generic save/restore system in place.  Having as many existing raids as we do is actually a big strike against us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As background: I've raided in EQ, EQ2, and WoW, so I at least have some firsthand knowledge of what I'm saying.  In EQ, the Plane of Time scenario doesn't apply, as it's a case where not only was the zone built to be saved/picked up later, but the solution itself was (at the time) custom built to handle that one zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In WoW (I don't know any more than you do here, so this is purely a guess - take with a grain of salt) the events in most raid zones appear to be built largely atomic, which is to say each critter/trigger is a standalone thing, with little notion of overall scripts/programs running throughout the entire raid that wouldn't lend themselves to being saved and picked up later. Theirs would (I suspect) be an example of designing their raids around this functionality from the get go.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For EQ2, it's the difference between saving the states of a bunch of simple data (spawners and critters) which is relatively easy to accomplish, and saving the exact run state of a whole lot of small programs running at once, which is very much not trivial.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, if we can find time to get it done correctly, it would be a boon for not just raiders, but all players - Solo and group included, which is just one more reason we'd very much like to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope that makes sense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Scott</DIV>

[Manyak]

<DIV><SPAN class=time_text>With a save point type deal, thatll make learning zones way way way too easy. Cuz then every day u can just sit and try the same named over and over and over. </SPAN></DIV><p>Message Edited by DaMutation on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:42 AM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Gallenite wrote:Some time in the future we <STRONG><EM>hope </EM></STRONG>to be able to move toward a system that allows for raid preservation so people can pick up where they left off over multiple days.  <hr></blockquote>Okay, so if you do this, can raid zones get harder and more progressive and actually require better gear than the current [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] we have? If any top guild could go into Emerald Halls daily to try the Garderner without having to worry about killing anything else but him in zone. Seriously, the raid zones right now would be cleared if a top guild could go back in every day. You need serious raid progression for leaving raid instances open to actually work and not cause distraut among the top raid guilds. Because seriously, that was the big key factor for it working in WoW, Naxxaramas only survived because it was hard, and was a zone based mostly on gear checking with all requiring strategy. However in EQ2, there is no mob that is a gear check mob in an instance. Tender of the Seedlings? Nope, beatable in KoS gear. Mayong Mistmoore? Probably beatable in KoS gear if the de-level debuffs didn't cause a huge lag spike which basically destroy your raid. Then we have the Garderner, which honestly just seems like he needs time to figure out his strategy, which currently would be a few pulls a week, and if there was open instances, it'd be a few pulls the first night, 100 pulls the 2nd night, and so on until he dies which wouldn't take that long to figure out how to beat him. Wuoshi? Dunno, haven't been there just yet, but I'm probably going to say that he's probably not going to be a gear check mob either.Seriously, leaving raid instances open can be good, IF the mobs that can't be beaten are gear check mobs, rather than strategy check mobs(which it seems 99% of mobs in EQ2 are strategy check mobs). Please, make mobs harder and gear check mobs rather than what we have now.

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gallenite wrote:<BR>Some time in the future we <STRONG><EM>hope </EM></STRONG>to be able to move toward a system that allows for raid preservation so people can pick up where they left off over multiple days.  <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Okay, so if you do this, can raid zones get harder and more progressive and actually require better gear than the current [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] we have? If any top guild could go into Emerald Halls daily to try the Garderner without having to worry about killing anything else but him in zone. Seriously, the raid zones right now would be cleared if a top guild could go back in every day. You need serious raid progression for leaving raid instances open to actually work and not cause distraut among the top raid guilds. Because seriously, that was the big key factor for it working in WoW, Naxxaramas only survived because it was hard, and was a zone based mostly on gear checking with all requiring strategy. However in EQ2, there is no mob that is a gear check mob in an instance. Tender of the Seedlings? Nope, beatable in KoS gear. Mayong Mistmoore? Probably beatable in KoS gear if the de-level debuffs didn't cause a huge lag spike which basically destroy your raid. Then we have the Garderner, which honestly just seems like he needs time to figure out his strategy, which currently would be a few pulls a week, and if there was open instances, it'd be a few pulls the first night, 100 pulls the 2nd night, and so on until he dies which wouldn't take that long to figure out how to beat him. Wuoshi? Dunno, haven't been there just yet, but I'm probably going to say that he's probably not going to be a gear check mob either.<BR><BR>Seriously, leaving raid instances open can be good, IF the mobs that can't be beaten are gear check mobs, rather than strategy check mobs(which it seems 99% of mobs in EQ2 are strategy check mobs). Please, make mobs harder and gear check mobs rather than what we have now.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You might have to study more about EQ1 raiding rather than WoW</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:58 AM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>selch wrote:You might have to study more about EQ1 raiding rather than WoW<hr></blockquote>And EQ1 and WoW honestly have little to do with my point, I just explained why it works in WoW with their zones, and then explained why it will be a failure in EQ2 at the top-end unless raids are drastically changed so that gear matters, rather than just working out the strategy and killing the mob.

[Fatkiddown]

<div></div><p></p><blockquote><hr>Defender of Antonia wrote:<div></div><p>And how would SoE deal with multiple people who all have diffrent save points? Ie raid kills two named and thenperson A logs out. But Raid continues and kills 3 more named  losing more and more people along the way. Next day We have multiple people all with diffrent saved points.</p><p>And camping your alt in Labs to save it open for the next day won't work. Kill one named and he'll need to stay there for 5 days.</p><hr></blockquote>Thats easy, only the raid leader would have the save point and it would be flagged to expire in 7 days no matter what happend.  And for us anyway we do not killed named in this situation we clear all the trash up to the triplets and then we done.  Then we could come back in later and start off with the first names.   Also we usually save Pradas or whatever for the very end after some people have left and we have like 3 groups left.   So by killing only trash we only have to keep zone open for 12hrs<div></div>

[Fatkiddown]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gallenite wrote:<div>Some time in the future we <strong><em>hope </em></strong>to be able to move toward a system that allows for raid preservation so people can pick up where they left off over multiple days.  The only reason that we haven't so far is the huge time investment required to get there, relative to everything else that's going on.  No promises that we'll get there, but we're not against it by any means.  If we were starting over from scratch, I sincerely doubt that any of us would choose lockout timers as a mechanic.</div> <div> </div> <div>It's the kind of thing that's far easier when your raids are implemented (scripts, events, etc) to support being resumed later, which is a big challenge that we face on top of getting a generic save/restore system in place.  Having as many existing raids as we do is actually a big strike against us.</div> <div> </div> <div>As background: I've raided in EQ, EQ2, and WoW, so I at least have some firsthand knowledge of what I'm saying.  In EQ, the Plane of Time scenario doesn't apply, as it's a case where not only was the zone built to be saved/picked up later, but the solution itself was (at the time) custom built to handle that one zone.</div> <div> </div> <div>In WoW (I don't know any more than you do here, so this is purely a guess - take with a grain of salt) the events in most raid zones appear to be built largely atomic, which is to say each critter/trigger is a standalone thing, with little notion of overall scripts/programs running throughout the entire raid that wouldn't lend themselves to being saved and picked up later. Theirs would (I suspect) be an example of designing their raids around this functionality from the get go.</div> <div> </div> <div>For EQ2, it's the difference between saving the states of a bunch of simple data (spawners and critters) which is relatively easy to accomplish, and saving the exact run state of a whole lot of small programs running at once, which is very much not trivial.</div> <div> </div> <div>That said, if we can find time to get it done correctly, it would be a boon for not just raiders, but all players - Solo and group included, which is just one more reason we'd very much like to.</div> <div> </div> <div>Hope that makes sense.</div> <div> </div> <div>- Scott</div><hr></blockquote>Greatly appreciate the quick response.  Sounds like there are quite a few things involved in having a guild save point, at least now we know what would be involved in getting a save point option.     </div>

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR>You might have to study more about EQ1 raiding rather than WoW<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>And EQ1 and WoW honestly have little to do with my point, I just explained why it works in WoW with their zones, and then explained why it will be a failure in EQ2 at the top-end unless raids are drastically changed so that gear matters, rather than just working out the strategy and killing the mob.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well, it did not fail in EQ1, don't see any point to fail in EQ2 as well other than egos of a few elitists.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:35 AM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>selch wrote:Well, it did not fail in EQ1, don't see any point to fail in EQ2 as well.<hr></blockquote>So, because it worked in EQ1(which btw, doesn't have anywhere near the same raiding as EQ2), it'll work in EQ2? I dunno, I didn't play EQ1, which is why I don't see why that has anything to do with EQ2. I mean, last I checked, because something works in 1 game, doesn't mean it'll work in another. Do you really think that 72-people raids would work in EQ2, because it worked in EQ1? Please, stop using the "it worked in EQ1, so it MUST work in EQ2" bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. We're playing EQ2, not EQ1. 2 COMPLETELY different games, you should think about the game you're playing now, not the game you used to be playing. Sure somethings may work, but other things won't, and with current raids leaving zones open will not work because there are no gear-check mobs. Gear-check mobs is what makes leaving an instance open work, why? Because it means you have a slim chance to beat it without getting better gear, which means after a few tries you realize this isn't worth the time, we're done raiding this until it re-opens and we have better gear. In EQ2, there is no such thing as a gear-check mob because once you get relic you're set for raiding into EoF, and then it's all about knowing how to setup your raid and executing a strategy setup for the mob you're fighting. Again, no gear-check mobs + leaving instances open = a receipe for disaster at the top-end.Again, I am talking about the top-end, not people below it, again all those mobs could be gear-check mobs for them because they just aren't good enough to deal with it, whereas those at the top-end, it's not a gear-check, it's a strategy check, which is a time-sink which is what the lockout provides, a time-sink to keep people in the game, without this time-sink the top-end becomes a joke because it is just fight the mobs until you get a strategy that works.

[selch]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Pinski wrote:<BR><BR>So, because it worked in EQ1(which btw, doesn't have anywhere near the same raiding as EQ2), it'll work in EQ2? I dunno, I didn't play EQ1, which is why I don't see why that has anything to do with EQ2</P> <P>We're playing EQ2, not EQ1. 2 COMPLETELY different games,</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not really different in raiding point and progression (considering you didnt play EQ1, interesting comment on 'doesn't have anywhere near' comment. Actually in EQ2, lucky to have instances that much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No worries, we will see all together when it is done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:45 AM</span>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gallenite wrote:<BR> <DIV>Some time in the future we <STRONG><EM>hope </EM></STRONG>to be able to move toward a system that allows for raid preservation so people can pick up where they left off over multiple days.  The only reason that we haven't so far is the huge time investment required to get there, relative to everything else that's going on.  No promises that we'll get there, but we're not against it by any means.  If we were starting over from scratch, I sincerely doubt that any of us would choose lockout timers as a mechanic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's the kind of thing that's far easier when your raids are implemented (scripts, events, etc) to support being resumed later, which is a big challenge that we face on top of getting a generic save/restore system in place.  Having as many existing raids as we do is actually a big strike against us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As background: I've raided in EQ, EQ2, and WoW, so I at least have some firsthand knowledge of what I'm saying.  In EQ, the Plane of Time scenario doesn't apply, as it's a case where not only was the zone built to be saved/picked up later, but the solution itself was (at the time) custom built to handle that one zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In WoW (I don't know any more than you do here, so this is purely a guess - take with a grain of salt) the events in most raid zones appear to be built largely atomic, which is to say each critter/trigger is a standalone thing, with little notion of overall scripts/programs running throughout the entire raid that wouldn't lend themselves to being saved and picked up later. Theirs would (I suspect) be an example of designing their raids around this functionality from the get go.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For EQ2, it's the difference between saving the states of a bunch of simple data (spawners and critters) which is relatively easy to accomplish, and saving the exact run state of a whole lot of small programs running at once, which is very much not trivial.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, if we can find time to get it done correctly, it would be a boon for not just raiders, but all players - Solo and group included, which is just one more reason we'd very much like to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope that makes sense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Scott</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thanks for the response, and it's good to hear its a possibility in the future <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>thanks.</P>

[Fireci]

<DIV>I love this concept.  Maybe changing the Lockout Timers to really be a "Zone Instance Repopulation" timer would be great.  It would save one people farming the Raid zones but would also give a good chance to small raiding guilds the opportunity to really test out strategies on encounters they are having a hard time with without investing 3 hours just to get there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you guys can pull this off SoE, you'll probably singlehandedly bring back half of my guild that has suspended their accounts in the past few months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fireci - Najena</DIV>

[Langaan]

*crosses fingers*

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>With a save point type deal, thatll make learning zones way way way too easy. Cuz then every day u can just sit and try the same named over and over and over. </SPAN></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Generally saved state instances expire after a couple days and then you have to start over.  I think that is how WoW works at least.<BR>

[Goejun]

You don't need to go in the save/load mess of an instance who would remember every mobs killed, etc. Too much programming. Put stuff like totems to save the progression of people in a zone. The one who touch it would be able to zone all the raid people in the instance at the emplacement of the totem they have touched before. To prevent farming of the last mob, people in the raid would need all to have reached the totem that is used for zoning.Advantages:Casual players would now group to progress in raid zones they used to never visit (u would get messages: "LFG to raid totem 2 of zone XXX");Fabled loot for casual playersNo need to have 4+ hours to finish a raid zone<div></div>

[Mescali]

Nice job.  You only figured out we wanted this a year too late to save the raiding game.<div></div>

[Computer MAn]

<div><blockquote><hr>Goejun wrote:Advantages:Casual players would now group to progress in raid zones they used to never visit (u would get messages: "LFG to raid totem 2 of zone XXX");Fabled loot for casual playersNo need to have 4+ hours to finish a raid zone<div></div><hr></blockquote>Then what exactly is the point of being a top end raider if everyone on the server can do the exact same thing. I personally hate the idea of zone saves for many of the same reasons as Calagin. Mainly I could zone into Emerald Halls clear out the tender. We then clear to the Gardener and call the raid a night. The next day we come back and pull the mob for 6 hours, rinse and repeat until our instance gets reset. I am sure with 6 hours a day for a week or whatever the zone duration is every instance in the game could be cleared in 2-3 weeks. 1-2 weeks for EH and probably a week for Inner Sanctum. My other question/comment is why should you not have to spend 4+ hours a raid zone. If you don't want to / can't put in the time you don't get the loot. It's a simple concept that is present in every game. I will repeat what I believe casual players should not have the same gear as the hardcore raiders who put in the time. Call me elistist or whatever you want if you dont want to put forth the effort than you dont get the loot. Every time I see a "pickup raids for labs forming pst" in the 60-69 channel I just remember how raids used to be in tier 5 compared to the mess we now have in tier 7. Last comment what is the deal with this obsesssion wih casuals and deserving fabled. Why do you need fabled when legendary will do just fine for everything an average casual will do.</div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>With a save point type deal, thatll make learning zones way way way too easy. Cuz then every day u can just sit and try the same named over and over and over. </SPAN></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Generally saved state instances expire after a couple days and then you have to start over.  I think that is how WoW works at least.<BR><hr></blockquote> In WoW, you get until Tuesday when the server maintence occurs.

[Geothe]

<P>I'd think a raid zone save would be more so that more "casual" guilds would get to experience more of the raid zones, when they arent able to devote 5-6 hrs straight to a raid.</P> <P>That said, some zones, are not designed for casual raids at all.  In such cases, ie EH, zone saves shouldnt be enabled.  The "top of the line" raid zones should be just for the top tier raid guilds to clear, and if they are top tier, they should have the time to go from start to finish in one sitting.</P> <P>But, instance saves in the "lower" raid zones like Labs, Lycieum, etc would allow more people to experience them.</P> <P> </P>

[Computer MAn]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Geothe wrote:<div></div> <p>I'd think a raid zone save would be more so that more "casual" guilds would get to experience more of the raid zones, when they arent able to devote 5-6 hrs straight to a raid.</p> <p>That said, some zones, are not designed for casual raids at all.  In such cases, ie EH, zone saves shouldnt be enabled.  The "top of the line" raid zones should be just for the top tier raid guilds to clear, and if they are top tier, they should have the time to go from start to finish in one sitting.</p> <p>But, instance saves in the "lower" raid zones like Labs, Lycieum, etc would allow more people to experience them.</p> <hr></blockquote>If they do that where do you draw the line? After Lyceum excluding HOS and DT ( both Not Designed for Casual Guilds), or after FTH but before MMIS? Once you decide to add the save point it will have to be for everyone zone or you will see posts saying My Casual Guild can't save in EH please enable save points.</div><p>Message Edited by Computer MAn on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:38 AM</span>

[Silverpaws]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gallenite wrote:<div>Some time in the future we <strong><em>hope </em></strong>to be able to move toward a system that allows for raid preservation so people can pick up where they left off over multiple days.  The only reason that we haven't so far is the huge time investment required to get there, relative to everything else that's going on.  No promises that we'll get there, but we're not against it by any means.  If we were starting over from scratch, I sincerely doubt that any of us would choose lockout timers as a mechanic.</div> <div> </div> <div>It's the kind of thing that's far easier when your raids are implemented (scripts, events, etc) to support being resumed later, which is a big challenge that we face on top of getting a generic save/restore system in place.  Having as many existing raids as we do is actually a big strike against us.</div> <div> </div> <div>As background: I've raided in EQ, EQ2, and WoW, so I at least have some firsthand knowledge of what I'm saying.  In EQ, the Plane of Time scenario doesn't apply, as it's a case where not only was the zone built to be saved/picked up later, but the solution itself was (at the time) custom built to handle that one zone.</div> <div> </div> <div>In WoW (I don't know any more than you do here, so this is purely a guess - take with a grain of salt) the events in most raid zones appear to be built largely atomic, which is to say each critter/trigger is a standalone thing, with little notion of overall scripts/programs running throughout the entire raid that wouldn't lend themselves to being saved and picked up later. Theirs would (I suspect) be an example of designing their raids around this functionality from the get go.</div> <div> </div> <div>For EQ2, it's the difference between saving the states of a bunch of simple data (spawners and critters) which is relatively easy to accomplish, and saving the exact run state of a whole lot of small programs running at once, which is very much not trivial.</div> <div> </div> <div>That said, if we can find time to get it done correctly, it would be a boon for not just raiders, but all players - Solo and group included, which is just one more reason we'd very much like to.</div> <div> </div> <div>Hope that makes sense.</div> <div> </div> <div>- Scott</div><hr></blockquote>In EQlive, the Plane of Time was instanced like this.  We could clear half, then clear the rest the next night (short of the ring event upon zone in /yawn).  Maybe some of the folks from EQlive could pay a visit to their buddies in EQ2 land.</div>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV><BR><STRONG>My other question/comment is why should you not have to spend 4+ hours a raid zone. If you don't want to / can't put in the time you don't get the loot. It's a simple concept that is present in every game.</STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> I dont have a problem with putting the time in, I have a problem with putting time in each week to get to the exact same spot.  Im not asking for encounters to be made easier in order for us to be able to kill faster, im asking for a longer period of time to allow us to progress further.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> <STRONG>Call me elistist or whatever you want if you dont want to put forth the effort than you dont get the loot.</STRONG> </DIV> <HR> <P> Effort?  are you kidding me?  I bet my left jewel that I put twice the effort into raiding with my guild than MOST hardcore raid guild members.  Don't tell me or suggest that my issue is due to lack of effort.</P> <P> </P> <P>Let me see if I am understanding you corectly...</P> <P>you oppose to having saved raid instances because</P> <P>A - they will be cleared too fast by the hardcore raid guilds</P> <P>B - People who arent in hardcore raid guilds dont "deserve" to wear armour and other items that drop off t7 raids or end game content because they dont put the "effort" in it that people like YOU do?? </P> <P> </P> <P>The notion that casual, regular and pick-up raid guilds shouldnt be given this opportunity because it means they have a chance to enjoy some of the content that hardcore guilds do because the hardcore guilds are the only ones that deserve it is a pile of horse-doo.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>Message Edited by Langaan on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:51 AM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Computer MAn wrote:Then what exactly is the point of being a top end raider if everyone on the server can do the exact same thing. I personally hate the idea of zone saves for many of the same reasons as Calagin. Mainly I could zone into Emerald Halls clear out the tender. We then clear to the Gardener and call the raid a night. The next day we come back and pull the mob for 6 hours, rinse and repeat until our instance gets reset. I am sure with 6 hours a day for a week or whatever the zone duration is every instance in the game could be cleared in 2-3 weeks. 1-2 weeks for EH and probably a week for Inner Sanctum.<hr></blockquote>This is exactly what I posted about. Top-end raiding will be destroyed by this change, period.

[Zenith]

Honestly I'd love to see this for normal instances too. I'm really sick of getting DCed while in Crypt of Valdoon and being chucked out to loping plains and thus not able to re-enter with my party. With this in place I could just walk back into the same instance and rejoin the battle instead of being locked out and screwed.

[Computer MAn]

<div><blockquote><hr>Langaan wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> <div> <hr> <strong>Call me elistist or whatever you want if you dont want to put forth the effort than you dont get the loot.</strong> </div> <hr> <p> Effort?  are you kidding me?  I bet my left jewel that I put twice the effort into raiding with my guild than MOST hardcore raid guild members.  Don't tell me or suggest that my issue is due to lack of effort.</p> </blockquote><span class="time_text"></span><hr></blockquote>I would say I am putting more effort in than you considering with EOF and the new boss mobs its not uncommon to see 6-8 hour raids 2-3 times a week. With 3+ the rest of the week. And yes that is my main worry that the whole game will be cleared by the higher end guilds too quickly because lets face it if you know the strat most mobs will die within a month of pulls. Gear means almost nothing to this game.</div>

[Mescali]

Or they could just implement zone saves on 'lower tier' zones, and add them to 'higher tier' zones only after expansions have/APs have been released.Then the people with no lives can be happy for at least 6 months while they clear raid zones others cant.This would follow the precedent of dumbing down/making easier prior content they've already established.<div></div>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Computer MAn wrote:<BR>Then what exactly is the point of being a top end raider if everyone on the server can do the exact same thing. I personally hate the idea of zone saves for many of the same reasons as Calagin. Mainly I could zone into Emerald Halls clear out the tender. We then clear to the Gardener and call the raid a night. The next day we come back and pull the mob for 6 hours, rinse and repeat until our instance gets reset. I am sure with 6 hours a day for a week or whatever the zone duration is every instance in the game could be cleared in 2-3 weeks. 1-2 weeks for EH and probably a week for Inner Sanctum.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>This is exactly what I posted about. Top-end raiding will be destroyed by this change, period.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Are you guys kidding me??  Are you saying "screw the casual guilds" and their desire to see this content because it will result in you hardcore raid guilds clearing teh zones faster?  too fast??  ummm how bout you sit in my shoes and feel what its like to not clear it at all because of TIME and NOT effort.</P> <P> </P> <P>this is ridiculous.</P> <P> </P> <P>lets be honest, how exaclty would this change negatively effect a hard core raiding guild, other than the fact that hardcore raiding guilds like the challenge ..?</P> <P> </P> <P>tell me , can your guild clear labs?  and tell me this, how long did it take you to kill vyemm for the first time?</P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Mescaline wrote:Or they could just implement zone saves on 'lower tier' zones, and add them to 'higher tier' zones only after expansions have/APs have been released.Then the people with no lives can be happy for at least 6 months while they clear raid zones others cant.This would follow the precedent of dumbing down/making easier prior content they've already established.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes, beacuse top-end raiders all have no-life. Seriously, stop with the bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] comments. Saves will destroy top-end raiding, period. What is a "lower" tier zone in EoF? To me, Inner Sanctum(excluding Mayong) is a lower tier zone, as is Freethinkers, and clockwork(then again, clockwork doesn't need saves because it's 1-mob). So basically you want to be able to do Freethinkers(which btw doesn't even have that much trash! it took us all of an hour and a half on Sunday to clear the entire zone and that's with wipes do to lag). To me, that's not much trash at all. Then we have Inner Sanctum, which honestly doesn't have very much trash, it just has annoying and high HP trash(which there's only about 13 in zone with the 3 million HP, and the groups of vampires aren't huge HP, they're just annoying with charm). So, where does that leave with saves being really useful for, oh wait Emerald Halls, the top-tier raid zone which everybody seems to be complaining about and wanting instance saves in.Honestly, if they were to not implement saves in an instance until the expansion afterwards came out, go for it, sounds fair to me because it's old content, I have no problem with it.

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Langaan wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Computer MAn wrote:<BR>Then what exactly is the point of being a top end raider if everyone on the server can do the exact same thing. I personally hate the idea of zone saves for many of the same reasons as Calagin. Mainly I could zone into Emerald Halls clear out the tender. We then clear to the Gardener and call the raid a night. The next day we come back and pull the mob for 6 hours, rinse and repeat until our instance gets reset. I am sure with 6 hours a day for a week or whatever the zone duration is every instance in the game could be cleared in 2-3 weeks. 1-2 weeks for EH and probably a week for Inner Sanctum.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>This is exactly what I posted about. Top-end raiding will be destroyed by this change, period.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Are you guys kidding me??  Are you saying "screw the casual guilds" and their desire to see this content because it will result in you hardcore raid guilds clearing teh zones faster?  too fast??  ummm how bout you sit in my shoes and feel what its like to not clear it at all because of TIME and NOT effort.</P> <P> </P> <P>this is ridiculous.</P> <P> </P> <P>lets be honest, how exaclty would this change negatively effect a hard core raiding guild, other than the fact that hardcore raiding guilds like the challenge ..?</P> <P> </P> <P>tell me , can your guild clear labs?  and tell me this, how long did it take you to kill vyemm for the first time?</P><hr></blockquote> First time my old guild went into Labs, took us 4 and a half hours to clear the entire zone including Vyemm. As I said above, I explained how it would negatively effect top-end guilds. The zone gets cleared, the zone is done and now we need new content to prove ourselves on which we're left with nothing else. Think about it for a second, once I clear a raid zone a few times, it doesn't make me want to keep playing the game, that's where the lockout system came in, to stall the process of clearing the zone, so that I will continue to play, a time-sink. If they want to add instance saves on KoS content, by all means, add it, because we're in EoF now. If they want to add instance saves on EoF content, then no, I am completely against it, until the next expansion comes out.

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Computer MAn wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV> <HR> <STRONG>Call me elistist or whatever you want if you dont want to put forth the effort than you dont get the loot.</STRONG> </DIV> <HR> <P> Effort?  are you kidding me?  I bet my left jewel that I put twice the effort into raiding with my guild than MOST hardcore raid guild members.  Don't tell me or suggest that my issue is due to lack of effort.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I would say I am putting more effort in than you considering with EOF and the new boss mobs its not uncommon to see 6-8 hour raids 2-3 times a week. With 3+ the rest of the week. <BR><BR>And yes that is my main worry that the whole game will be cleared by the higher end guilds too quickly because lets face it if you know the strat most mobs will die within a month of pulls. Gear means almost nothing to this game.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No offence meant by this question at all, but dont you think thats a bit selfish?  I mean to deny everyone except people who can afford to raid 6-8 hours a day the opportunity to clear certain raid zones?  </P> <P>come on.  There is no competition in instance raid zones, so why do you care?  If you want to take your time with clearing a zone than do it.  If yer concerned about other guilds finishing it before oyu, and therefore you will being saving the zone to progress and get that first kill, well im sorry but that is your problem, not mine.</P> <P> </P> <P>Tell me, how many hardcore raid guilds are on your server, that have cleared say deathtoll?  5?</P> <P>now, how many on your server raid casually but have yet to even see deathtoll?  200?  300?</P> <P> </P>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Computer MAn wrote:<BR>Then what exactly is the point of being a top end raider if everyone on the server can do the exact same thing. I personally hate the idea of zone saves for many of the same reasons as Calagin. Mainly I could zone into Emerald Halls clear out the tender. We then clear to the Gardener and call the raid a night. The next day we come back and pull the mob for 6 hours, rinse and repeat until our instance gets reset. I am sure with 6 hours a day for a week or whatever the zone duration is every instance in the game could be cleared in 2-3 weeks. 1-2 weeks for EH and probably a week for Inner Sanctum.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>This is exactly what I posted about. Top-end raiding will be destroyed by this change, period.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Are you guys kidding me??  Are you saying "screw the casual guilds" and their desire to see this content because it will result in you hardcore raid guilds clearing teh zones faster?  too fast??  ummm how bout you sit in my shoes and feel what its like to not clear it at all because of TIME and NOT effort.</P> <P> </P> <P>this is ridiculous.</P> <P> </P> <P>lets be honest, how exaclty would this change negatively effect a hard core raiding guild, other than the fact that hardcore raiding guilds like the challenge ..?</P> <P> </P> <P>tell me , can your guild clear labs?  and tell me this, how long did it take you to kill vyemm for the first time?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>First time my old guild went into Labs, took us 4 and a half hours to clear the entire zone including Vyemm. As I said above, I explained how it would negatively effect top-end guilds. The zone gets cleared, the zone is done and now we need new content to prove ourselves on which we're left with nothing else. Think about it for a second, once I clear a raid zone a few times, it doesn't make me want to keep playing the game, that's where the lockout system came in, to stall the process of clearing the zone, so that I will continue to play, a time-sink. If they want to add instance saves on KoS content, by all means, add it, because we're in EoF now. If they want to add instance saves on EoF content, then no, I am completely against it, until the next expansion comes out.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I would be satisified if there were something like that.  cause most casual raid guilds arent even raiding eof yet anyway.  why bother when theres still KoS raids to do.</P> <P> </P> <P>oh, and for the record, this thread was never about EH raid zone / EOF.</P>

[Mescali]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote: <b>What is a "lower" tier zone in EoF?</b> <hr></blockquote>Did you read my post?  This is what's called an 'internet forum.'  Often people will read a post in its entirety before replying, lest they do what you just did and make a fool out of themselves.Lower tier.  Read:  everything that wasn't JUST released in the expansion pack.  EoF (if I'm not mistaken) is the most recent expansion pack.  Therefore (if you'd read my post) you'd understand that I'm suggesting that nothing in EoF be given a save until the NEXT expansion.This message brought to you by The Pantheon Debait Team.<img src="http://www.adl.org/images/education/logo_nbc_the_moreyouknow.gif"></div>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>First time my old guild went into Labs, took us 4 and a half hours to clear the entire zone including Vyemm. As I said above, I explained how it would negatively effect top-end guilds. The zone gets cleared, the zone is done and now we need new content to prove ourselves on which we're left with nothing else. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Am I missing something??</P> <P>You cleared labs first try in 4 hours, ?</P> <P>then exactly how would this save option make you clear it any faster??</P> <P> </P>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Computer MAn wrote:<div>My other question/comment is why should you not have to spend 4+ hours a raid zone. If you don't want to / can't put in the time you don't get the loot. It's a simple concept that is present in every game. I will repeat what I believe casual players should not have the same gear as the hardcore raiders who put in the time. Call me elistist or whatever you want if you dont want to put forth the effort than you dont get the loot. Every time I see a "pickup raids for labs forming pst" in the 60-69 channel I just remember how raids used to be in tier 5 compared to the mess we now have in tier 7. Last comment what is the deal with this obsesssion wih casuals and deserving fabled. Why do you need fabled when legendary will do just fine for everything an average casual will do.</div><hr></blockquote>Let me know how much money that makes ... making certain parts of your content only for a small fraction of your player base is a surefire way to lose subscriptions and end up bankrupt.That might work for you, but I think they'd make alot more money if they had a solution that worked for the other 95% of the population and kept them happy.As for your last sentence, you seem to think that casual people dont want to raid, MANY MANY of them do and so thus need the fabled.  they just cannot because the mechanics fo the game doesnt lend itself to someone who can only play 1-2 hours a night to take part in the high end content.  I am 100% all for anything that lets me raid like i used to before my kids came along but without having to lockmyself in a room for 6 hours a time and ignore my responsabilities.  I dont want the content to be easier, I like it hard..Time != hard, make it hard but dont make me have to invest huge blocks of time to get something done.  I dont mind if I have to invest 40 hours to complete a zone, as long as I can do it in 1-2 hour chunks, not 2 20 hour chunks.Your idea is that because you can put forward time in large chunks, it makes you hardcore and deserve cool stuff.. it doesnt make you anything more than anyone else, it just means your real life situation allows it.. you arent any eliter than anyone else, or any better.i think the raid saving would be awesome for those of us who dont live in Norath 23 hours a day and on earth for potty breaks.</div>

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR><BR>Your idea is that because you can put forward time in large chunks, it makes you hardcore and deserve cool stuff.. it doesnt make you anything more than anyone else, it just means your real life situation allows it.. you arent any eliter than anyone else, or any better.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>exactly.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Langaan wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>First time my old guild went into Labs, took us 4 and a half hours to clear the entire zone including Vyemm. As I said above, I explained how it would negatively effect top-end guilds. The zone gets cleared, the zone is done and now we need new content to prove ourselves on which we're left with nothing else. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Am I missing something??</P> <P>You cleared labs first try in 4 hours, ?</P> <P>then exactly how would this save option make you clear it any faster??</P> <P> </P><hr></blockquote> That's because labs is a joke, now let's bring in Emerald Halls and Inner Sanctum into the picture, or Deathtoll even. Now going into those zones nobody has cleared it on their first try, sooo therefore it would help immensely on clearing those zones. You ahve to look at the entire picture, not just 1 easy zone.

[ReviloTX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR>You might have to study more about EQ1 raiding rather than WoW<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>And EQ1 and WoW honestly have little to do with my point, I just explained why it works in WoW with their zones, and then explained why it will be a failure in EQ2 at the top-end unless raids are drastically changed so that gear matters, rather than just working out the strategy and killing the mob.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The problem is, gear really doesn't matter much in this game to begin with.  It's hard to design content around gear check's when their formula for mitigation throws gear out the window.

[Langaan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>First time my old guild went into Labs, took us 4 and a half hours to clear the entire zone including Vyemm. As I said above, I explained how it would negatively effect top-end guilds. The zone gets cleared, the zone is done and now we need new content to prove ourselves on which we're left with nothing else. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Am I missing something??</P> <P>You cleared labs first try in 4 hours, ?</P> <P>then exactly how would this save option make you clear it any faster??</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>That's because labs is a joke, now let's bring in Emerald Halls and Inner Sanctum into the picture, or Deathtoll even. Now going into those zones nobody has cleared it on their first try, sooo therefore it would help immensely on clearing those zones. You ahve to look at the entire picture, not just 1 easy zone.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No, see that's the problem.  Labs is a "joke" to hardcore raid guilds, not the rest of us.</P> <P>You see you can jump in and clear labs on first try, THAT is what makes you an eilte raid guild, or hardcore raid guild.</P> <P>But for some of us, even the first few names are difficult.  We do not raid as much as hardcore guilds do, but we still raid as much as rl lets us.</P> <P>You may walk into labs with 20 other people who you have raided with many many times, you all know your stuff, you all are focused etc... yadda yadda, and you walk through them with your dps at 20k , and maybe after a few wipes you figure out the strat and kill vyemm.</P> <P>well thats all just great, congrats, you are a high end raid guild and i dont dont you know yer [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P> <P>BUT, on the other had, my guild who lets say half of us have played together a long time, a quarter of us not so lonng, and the other quarter hardly at all or they are outside of the guild.</P> <P>So, you as a hardcore raid guild probably have dedicated members who's RL allows them to raid hours at a time, 4+ nights a week etc,,, its no wonder you guys look at labs as "a joke".</P> <P> </P> <P>but for us little ol' undeserving casual guilds who dont put enough "effort" into it, we only raid 4 times a week max.</P> <P>tues/thurs we do guild city raids or alafaz, cuz we can never swing a full raid during the week due to RL.</P> <P>Friday and saturdays we usually fill the raid, but again, someitmes we dont have a brig, a troub, dirge, maybe none of the above at all etc...   sometimes we have 4+ fighters with us etc....</P> <P>so here we are, uncapable of hitting 20k dps, some peeps can only stay 3 hours max, so by the time we get near the end we are losing people and the raid is getting weaker etc...</P> <P>im sure you understand where im getting at.</P> <P>The fact is, 95% of the people playing the game dont see this content because of 1 simple fact - RL does not allow them.</P> <P>some people could just say "screw it" and join a hardcore raid guild, infact lots have done that, but what about the people who consider everyone in their guild good friends?  what about the vast majority of people who wouldnt meet a hardcore raid guilds requirements for raiding schedules ?</P> <P> </P>

[civilgeek]

<DIV>All of this is only speculation based on previous content.... why can't soe install this mechanic for all current raids allowing 90% of the rest of the players to to truly give their best at raiding and experiencing upper lvl content.  At the same time they could introduce two more zones within EOF that would humble even the most hardy guilds with this mechanic in place and keep the "uber" guilds busy for the next year trying to beat them.  This can be done and to the benefit of all.... Nothing is as black and white as some of you are making this sound.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haldir - 70 Warden</DIV> <DIV>Leader of The Golden Rose of Qeynos</DIV>

[Scort]

<P>This is where Blizzard once again did it a better way. They don't have lockout timers. The game keeps track of what mobs you kill in an instance. If the server or zone crashes, you don't get locked out for days on end because you just killed the first named and the zone crashed. You just go back in and pick up where you left off. It knows what mobs were killed. Then, once a week, they reset the raid zone timers for you. If you kill everything in there, you can go back all week long and everything will still be down.</P> <P>No farming, no lockouts, no getting screwed over because the zone or server crashed and the GMs will do absolutely nothing to help you.</P> <P>You know, every single person pays the same monthly payment as everyone else and deserves just as much chance at any zone as anyone else does. It seems things are designed to screw people over as much as possible. A LOT of gameplay designs hurt players, more than it does to help them have a fun time.</P><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:39 PM</span>

[Computer MAn]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Langaan wrote:<div></div> <blockquote><div><blockquote> <blockquote> <hr> <div> <hr> <strong></strong></div></blockquote></blockquote></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>No offence meant by this question at all, but dont you think thats a bit selfish?  I mean to deny everyone except people who can afford to raid 6-8 hours a day the opportunity to clear certain raid zones?  </p> <p>come on.  There is no competition in instance raid zones, so why do you care?  If you want to take your time with clearing a zone than do it.  If yer concerned about other guilds finishing it before oyu, and therefore you will being saving the zone to progress and get that first kill, well im sorry but that is your problem, not mine. </p> <p>Tell me, how many hardcore raid guilds are on your server, that have cleared say deathtoll?  5?</p> <p>now, how many on your server raid casually but have yet to even see deathtoll?  200?  300?</p> <hr></blockquote>I'll pose the question to you also. Don't you think its a bit selfish that you are wanting to "dumb down content" in a sense for a few casual raiding guilds?On my server we have at least 3 pickup raids that clear to Vyemm Weekly. Another 10 or so raidingguilds that clear labs weekly.Off the top of my head we have 10 guilds in DT and 8 of them have cleared it so thats a pretty good number if you estimate 40 people per guild thats about 400 people in DT. Out of the 1-2000 level 70's on the server (estimate) maybe 1000 of those want to raid so 40% isnt bad at all. We actually have a guild that does pickup raids on deathtoll so once again Casuals can get in there.</div><p>Message Edited by Computer MAn on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:11 PM</span>

[Yask]

<DIV><STRONG>I would love to see some kind of mechanic like this added to the game!</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And for all the cry babies who think they are better then everyone else:  EQ2 WAS NEVER MENT TO BE A HARDCORE RAID GAME.</DIV>

[civilgeek]

<DIV>How is this dumbing down content.... the content is the same only more accessable to everyone. It is no different than the Matron sitting in the wide open for 5 months on Oasis till a guild finally took her down. Have many guilds taken down the avatars in EOF yet or the many contested... NO. How are they any different... they are available 7 days a week and ready for you to take them down at any time but wait... you can't do it yet can you? Is that progression? Is that the difficulty you want? I think it is... the timers are solely a poor mechanic.  Not only can they do this for earlier zones but think of the content they could create in the future. Right now content is limited to 2-6 hour blocks. With this mechanic they could create raid zones that are much more dynamic and large than anything currently in game.  They are no longer limited by time and either would we be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haldir - 70 Warden</DIV> <DIV>Leader of The Golden Rose of Qeynos</DIV><p>Message Edited by civilgeek on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:01 PM</span>

[Eneelia]

<DIV>I want to thank you for being willing to explore other options for allowing people to get through raids.</DIV> <DIV>It would be great to stop and start again another day.  To often my guild calls it not becasue we are naked, rather becasue of time.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Langaan wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>tues/thurs we do guild city raids or alafaz, cuz we can never swing a full raid during the week due to RL.</P> <P>Friday and saturdays we usually fill the raid, but again, someitmes we dont have a brig, a troub, dirge, maybe none of the above at all etc...   sometimes we have 4+ fighters with us etc....</P> <P>so here we are, uncapable of hitting 20k dps, some peeps can only stay 3 hours max, so by the time we get near the end we are losing people and the raid is getting weaker etc...</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Why should you be successful with a less than adequate raid force?<BR>

[Gallenite]

<P>Locking this thread. </P> <P>Before I do, to clear up the wide array of misunderstandings that fill the last 2 pages of replies:</P> <P>* Regarding mentions of EQ - Please re-read the original reply.  Plane of Time, and why that solution doesn't apply, is addressed.</P> <P>* Regarding the replies that incorrectly say this would make raiding easier.  There are many tangential changes that would also be required.   If the zone-back-in period is the same as, or less than, the current lockout period, for instance.  It also allows for a wider range of respawn types of the surrounding mobs leading up to nameds.  Adding a new coded system for raid lockout handling doesn't in any way, by itself, change the difficulty of anything.  That's strictly what my reply was addressing.</P> <P>- Scott</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>