If We Had Eight Brigands, We Could Beat This So Easily...

[Ganelonn]

<P>(I was originally going to post this on the Swashbuckler forums, but I figured since it's more of a rant towards the actual design of encounters than it is towards any class, it might be better off here.)</P> <P>I've been a lurker on the forums forever and have hardly posted anything but I am a veteran Swashbuckler raider and am getting very concerned at the direction SOE has taken regarding raid encounters and it is beginning to make me seriously consider betraying to a brigand.  I -love- my Swashbuckler.  I love the look, I love the attitude, I love the special CAs (Hurricane, Inspiration), and I love the DPS.</P> <P>I belong to a raid guild which has gotten server first on the majority of KoS encounters, including all contesteds... server first on Chel'drak, and eventually we will likely have server first on The Matron.  I am one of the best dps in the guild and am consistently #1 dps on zonewide parses of every KoS instance.  I am not saying this to toot my own horn.  I am just trying to put a perspective on to where this post is coming from: A very skilled Swashbuckler in a fairly successful raid guild who loves to raid, and plays the game soley for raiding.</P> <P>Before the release of Fallen Dynasty... and even after the release up until we started working on The Matron, I would've laughed in the face of anybody suggesting I betray to a Brigand.  To me, Brigands don't have the dps, nor the style, and that stupid aoe immunity is like turning on Easy Mode.  But the more I think about it, the more I begin to realize the trend SOE has set for Fallen Dynasty, and the more I begin to worry about the future of raiding in EQ2, and my future as a Swashbuckler in EQ2. </P> <P>In pretty much -every- raid encounter in Fallen Dynasty, there is at least one very nasty aoe, which totally ignores resists, and usually one-shots you if you are in melee range.  Bonesnapper has Despoiling Mists.  Xux'liao has the magic aoe who's name I forget.  Chel'drak has Cloud of Torpor(actually I'm not sure that one ignores resists, but it does so much damage anyway if you are close).  Matron has Rain of Thistles.  All of these are nasty, nasty aoes which do damage based on your proximity to the monster, and your resistance doesn't really matter.</P> <P>In KoS, Brigands could just use Amazing Reflexes and be immune to any aoe that a monster might have.  As a Swashbuckler, I was able to invest in resist gear and mitigate the damage from aoes enough that I could survive and a healer could heal me to be ready for the next aoe.</P> <P>In Fallen Dynasty, Brigands could just use Amazing Reflexes and be immune to any aoe that a monster might have.  As a Swashbuckler, I was able to invest in resist gear and die anyway, because it doesn't do anything.</P> <P>Ok, so I had to adjust.  I started running my parser during raids (which lags me a lot), and I used it to time the aoes so I could joust them.  Piece of cake.  I was no longer useless on Crab and Roost.  I didn't do my KoS type mega dps on them, I was down to a mere 900 or so, but still not totally horrible.  Definitely no longer top dog in the dps, though.</P> <P>Then came Chel'drak with 2 aoes.  Because he has two aoes I spend so much time jousting out, not dpsing on him, I'm lucky if I do 600dps.  I spend most of my time just killing adds.  The brigands are now out damaging me by far, and I feel like I'm not even needed on the raid.</P> <P>Then the Matron.  She is the one that takes the cake. She is the one that makes me feel so utterly useless as to seriously think about betraying so we have a better force to beat her.  First of all, the first two monsters of the encounter we range fight, so I do maybe 400 dps while Brigands can sit next to them with Amazing Reflexes on and do a good 1000+.  Then comes the Matron herself.  Once again, like Chel'drak, 2 aoes that need to be jousted, so I can't spend a ton of time dpsing on her.  Not only that, but she spawns adds which need to be killed.  I need to help kill the adds, but what do they have?  Aoes that stun and stifle.  So I sit there doing nothing for a good ten seconds every time they spawn where if I was a brigand, they would be dead in those ten seconds while I ignore their silly aoes and kick their [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  This encounter has totally demolished my Swashbuckler pride.  I do about 300dps and each time we try her I feel more and more like I shouldn't even be there.</P> <P>But Swashbucklers aren't about dps, are they?  They have lots of useful debuffs!!!  ... Right?   Wrong.  Lung Puncture is useless in my opinion.  I don't think slashing/piercing/ranged/whatever  does anything at all.  Dazzling Steel is pretty nice, but other classes can debuff dps just as well.  Our mitigation debuffs are totally outclassed by Brigands (but we -can- keep ours on 100% of the time, not sure if Brigands can).  Even if any of the debuffs were useful,it wouldn't matter because in these new encounters we spend so much time doing something besides hitting the mob, that our debuffs aren't even on them most of the time anyway!  If I can't top dps my raid is better off having something else in my place that can, or that will improve overall raid dps. </P> <P><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I love the encounters, I think Chel'drak was the most fun fight I've ever done in the game, but I feel un-needed on it.  I like the challenge of jousting aoes but that greatly lowers my raid value compared to classes that don't have to.  Maybe there are people out there who think the encounters are great and don't de-value every melee class in existence except those immune to aoes, but I am not one of them.</P> <P>If this style of raid encounters continues in EoF, Swashbucklers better have some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sweet AAs, or I will definitely be trading in my feathers and sporting a Hamburgler hat in exchange for being useful in raids other than KoS zones.  The sad thing is these problems are not even due to Brigands being overpowered, or Swashbucklers being underpowered.  It's a problem with the -design- of the encounters making a single skill that brigands have more powerful than it should be.  I'm sure every melee dps out there that has experienced these encounters has felt as useless as I have.</P> <P>I have no doubt that we will eventually kill The Matron with our current raid force, but I think if we could replace all our melee dps with brigands, it would be so much easier, and that is just plain wrong.  I cannot wait to see the raids in EoF with -three- massive damage aoes that ignore resists, multiple adds that aoe stun and stifle, aoe debuffs that lower haste and dps by 100%, and all stats by 500.  And I'll be a brigand so I don't have to worry about any of it and I can actually do something for my raid.</P>

[Garuk]

I happen to agree with this 100%. I don't feel, as the OP stated, that Brigs are overpowered, or that Swashies are underpowered, but that AR has turned out to be incredibly useful in a raid environment possibly due to the fact that once SOE gets a "new encounter idea" they stick to it like a dog with a favorite chew toy. Powerful AEs, Mem-blurs, constantly spawning adds, knock-backs, random teleports; you can rest assured that any new encounter you'll come across in EoF will utilise at least three of these. And that's fine, there is only so much you can do to make an encounter interesting or difficult. Swashbucklers, being the counter-part to the Brigand class, should also have an ability to dodge AEs. I think AR is fine the way it is, what with the increased hate and the thirty second break with received damage I feel it's balanced currently. Allow Swashies to use it as well and it'll go a long way towards making the class more useful in a raid situation. -Garukai70 Brigand, NajenaThe Crew<div></div>

[kono]

<DIV>I think it is very dangerous to betray to switch classes directly before an expansion.  (Even though I just did it.)  Expansions tend to bring about balance adjustments, and I would consider it very possible that something in the subclass AA trees will make you regret your decision.  There may also be something in the design of EoF encounters to make you regret your decision.  All it takes is a little damage shield to make Amazing Reflexes not so amazing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>najena.konogur</DIV>

[The-Fourm-Pirate]

Ok, seriosly stop crying now, it's ok, everything will be fine. You act as if Swashbucklers are useless, but you say you are outDPSing the Brigands in all of the KoS instances, but two fights in FD favor Brigands and you think about betraying? Our AoE immunity and our big defensive debuffs are our class defining skills like Inspiration and Hurricane are some of yours. Swashbucklers are pretty much better in everything other than debuffing and DPS on big AoE encounters, the offensive debuffs are almost as good as Brigand defense debuffs.  Put down the nerf bat now, I know the crying will get us eventually but don't pretend your class is useless just because Brigands are better in two ways.

[Dasein]

Certain encounters will favor certain tactics. Unless you design all classes or all encounters to be the same, then some classes will be better than others in some situations. <div></div>

[Petgroup]

I'd rather have 8 Necros or 8 Assasins than 8 Brigs on any encounter, regardless of a 100k aoe.You use the Direvine Matron as an example. I can tell why you haven't beat it yet because you have no clue about the encounter.<div></div>

[Ganelonn]

<DIV>Fourm Pirate, wish you had read the whole post. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nikecmh42 wrote:<BR>I'd rather have 8 Necros or 8 Assasins than 8 Brigs on any encounter, regardless of a 100k aoe.<BR><BR>You use the Direvine Matron as an example. I can tell why you haven't beat it yet because you have no clue about the encounter.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You're right, we don't have the perfect strat for the Direvine Matron.  We haven't been trying her for very long, and have probably fought her less than ten times.  Our best attempt lasted just over seven minutes, and we only had her to 50% because our dps sucked.  But you know what?  Judging by the amount of dps our brigands did compared to every other dps we had there... if we only had brigands in the raid for melee dps (instead of multiple swashbucklers and brawlers), our no-clue strat probably would've killed her because that would've more than doubled our raid dps.</DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>nikecmh42 wrote:I'd rather have 8 Necros or 8 Assasins than 8 Brigs on any encounter, regardless of a 100k aoe.You use the Direvine Matron as an example. I can tell why you haven't beat it yet because you have no clue about the encounter.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Coming from a guild who used 4 brigands, grats!

[Petgroup]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>nikecmh42 wrote:I'd rather have 8 Necros or 8 Assasins than 8 Brigs on any encounter, regardless of a 100k aoe.You use the Direvine Matron as an example. I can tell why you haven't beat it yet because you have no clue about the encounter.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Coming from a guild who used 4 brigands, grats!<hr></blockquote>3 Brigs on our roster, so magically we didn't use 4.And yes we tag recruits, as you can see 1 of our 3 is a recruit.Nice try though. </div>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>Honestly brigands do seem WAY more important to raids than swashbucklers.   I would hope that Swashbuckler AA's in EoF give them at least one thing that makes them more desirable to raids.  Maybe a really nice group dps proc or something.   </DIV>

[AlbinoLou]

Do I whine because i can't do nearly as much DPS during the Corsolander fight?  No.  OK, that's a lie, i do whine about it all the time but i just run in to debuff and then run out and do my utter craptastic ranged DPS.  AR isn't "easy mode", even at master quality it gets you 10% extra hate.  Would i want to get rid of AR?  Hell no, i love it....but there are definately things other classes have that I would also love.<div></div>

[Vegter Leeuw]

<div></div>we beat it with 2 brigs so u dont need 8.and im sure the matron can be deafeated with 1 brig.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Vegter Leeuwen on <span class=date_text>09-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:35 PM</span>

[Dignast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vegter Leeuwen wrote:<BR> we beat it with 2 brigs so u dont need 8.<BR>and im sure the matron can be deafeated with 1 brig.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Vegter Leeuwen on <SPAN class=date_text>09-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:35 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Could you have possibly missed the point more than you did?

[Scort]

I also am a raiding swash in a high end raiding guild that gets server first most of the time. I too love my swashbuckler but, I have also seen the bad direction raids are going. I have also thought about betraying, because now I am being told I am not wanted on raids for these mobs because I am useless on them. When the raid leader says they would rather no swashbucklers be on the matron raid at all so they could put in casters, it starts to suck. We are relegated to keeping the area clear for the port the matron does.Well said Ganelonn, I know EXACTLY where you are coming from and could not have said it better.The AOEs are so bad now. We can't do our job. It's not about 2 encounters making Brigands even more desirable (because they are desirable on EVERY raid mob because they ALL have AOEs), it's about making swashbucklers totally 100% useless. It's the pattern he is seeing because SOE will copy and paste the SAME SKILLS on every [Removed for Content] mobs in a xpak/adventure pak and then use them in new mobs they add. It will end up being more than 2 mobs because SOE can't be unique on each mob, they have to copy and paste the same thing over and over and over and over and over.....TOTALLY 100% agree here with all you said.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>09-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:48 PM</span>

[illy586]

<P>So... you don't get top dps on 2 mobs and you want to cry about it? and say Swash is a useless class compared to a Brigand? I wouldn't worry im sure Brigands will be nerfed by EoF, seems to be the class of the month to get nerfed because there is all ready like 3 posts regarding Brigands being overpower which is not the case if you ask me.</P>

[Petgroup]

<div></div>Because Brigs T1.5-2 DPS, they should be nerfed <span>:smileyindifferent:</span>I don't see a single problem but people gotta complain.<div></div>

[The-Fourm-Pirate]

<DIV>If you are a Swashbuckler and are honestly saying you are useless to a raid, please stop raiding, because your guild deserves a Swashbuckler who knows how to play.</DIV>

[Scort]

Assuming people don't know how to play a class without even knowing them and making stupid assumptions is really being clueless.You have nothing to worry about because you have a god skill that every guild wants on their raids for every encounter in the game.Tell me where a swashbuckler with their mighty 200dps ranged skill is useful on the Matron over a wizard or brigand or a lot of other classes.Like we said, SOE will just copy and paste these skills to more and more mobs and it will be more than just 2 encounters. Soon it will be 3, then 4, then 5, etc. You know how SOE operates.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>09-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:54 PM</span>

[Petgroup]

<div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:Assuming people don't know how to play a class without even knowing them and making stupid assumptions is really being clueless.You have nothing to worry about because you have a god skill that every guild wants on their raids for every encounter in the game.Tell me where a swashbuckler with their mighty 200dps ranged skill is useful on the Matron over a wizard or brigand or a lot of other classes.Like we said, SOE will just copy and paste these skills to more and more mobs and it will be more than just 2 encounters. Soon it will be 3, then 4, then 5, etc. You know how SOE operates.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">09-23-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:54 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I just like to point out that if you say your class has to range the Matron, then 20 other people have to also.Quit complaining.</div>

[Jounar]

Just seems odd that Brigs are the one scout that are must have's on raids yet for such utility they dont give up much damage output.

[Pins]

The only problem with brigands is their permanent AE Avoid. Everything else about the class is pretty much fine. AE Avoid needs to be changed into a short duration buff rather than permanent, because it's [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that they can just ignore every single AE.

[Petgroup]

No one has had a problem with Amazing Reflexes for over a year, now its nerf time ?Are Brigs out dpsing Assasins on 95% of the encounters ? Did I miss something ? Even with AoE avoid, they are not T1 Dps.There are at least 5 classes dealing T1 Dps, that should not be. No complaints ?Brigs are on the chopping block because of PvP effecting PvE.Can't wait to see who the flavor of the month is in October. I nominate the Dirge ! They run to fast, they should be nerfed. I want those run speed buffs. If my class can't have them, im gonna get theres nerfed. No one should be running faster than a wolf or horse.<div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>nikecmh42 wrote:No one has had a problem with Amazing Reflexes for over a year, now its nerf time ?Are Brigs out dpsing Assasins on 95% of the encounters ? Did I miss something ? Even with AoE avoid, they are not T1 Dps.There are at least 5 classes dealing T1 Dps, that should not be. No complaints ?Brigs are on the chopping block because of PvP effecting PvE.Can't wait to see who the flavor of the month is in October. I nominate the Dirge ! They run to fast, they should be nerfed. I want those run speed buffs. If my class can't have them, im gonna get theres nerfed. No one should be running faster than a wolf or horse.<div></div><hr></blockquote>You're a [Removed for Content] if you don't think the fact that AE Avoid doesn't make brigands as powerful as they are. Actually AE Avoid has been complained about since a few months after DoF came out. Swashbucklers on fights with powerful AEs are not anywhere near as useful/powerful as a Brigand. Their debuffs are a near joke because of how skill debuffs currently work. I'm not saying remove AE Avoid, I'm saying make it short duration, medium recast for a buff so that it actually takes skill to use, rather than always on.

[Petgroup]

<div></div>A spell/skill that is not making a T2 class deal T1 Damage should not be nerfed.Brigs still die, as does everyone else.Brigs are more desired on a raid over a Swash, if Amazing relexes was changed to a timed buff, thats gonna make Swashes and Brigs the same? No. It won't solve anything.Giving Swashies something to bring to the table is the answer, if they don't have it already. If skill debuffs are broke, fix them ? Lets just nerf brigs instead <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[The-Fourm-Pirate]

<P>You have to realize that just because we have a few things going for us dosn't mean we're overpowered. We have weaknesses like every other class. We have [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ranged and AOE damage but strong debuffs, AOE avoidance, and good DPS, Swashbucklers have [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ranged damage (if hail of steel wasn't a broken piece of crap they wouldn't have this issue) and are weak on encounters with powerful AEs, but they have decent debuffs, good AE damage and good overall damage. Fix hail of steel (ranger equivilant too please) to scale with level and a Swashbuckler will be on par with a Brigand for jousting DPS.</P> <P>Also make those skills (slashing, crushing, ordination, destruction, ect) worth the effort to debuff, make these skills effect damage, make ministration effect heal ammount (or in ordnation/subjugation, debuff ammount and chance to break on damage).</P><p>Message Edited by The-Fourm-Pirate on <span class=date_text>09-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:14 PM</span>

[Kraks_Aforty]

I don't think its their AE avoid that makes them overpowered.  Its the fact that they can lower mitigation more than any two other classes combined.Go fight Tarinax or Gorenaire or another high high mit mob without a brigand and parse.  Then do it again with a brigand and parse.  You'll see exactly what I'm talking about.<div></div>

[Dakkon_10]

<blockquote><hr>The-Fourm-Pirate wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>You have to realize that just because we have a few things going for us dosn't mean we're overpowered. We have weaknesses like every other class. We have [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ranged and AOE damage but strong debuffs, AOE avoidance, and good DPS, Swashbucklers have [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ranged damage (if hail of steel wasn't a broken piece of crap they wouldn't have this issue) and are weak on encounters with powerful AEs, but they have decent debuffs, good AE damage and good overall damage. Fix hail of steel (ranger equivilant too please) to scale with level and a Swashbuckler will be on par with a Brigand for jousting DPS.</p><p>Also make those skills (slashing, crushing, ordination, destruction, ect) worth the effort to debuff, make these skills effect damage, make ministration effect heal ammount (or in ordnation/subjugation, debuff ammount and chance to break on damage).</p><p>Message Edited by The-Fourm-Pirate on <span class="date_text">09-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:14 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>QFE<font size="5"><i>Hail of Steel needs to be fixed!!!!</i></font>Brigands don't need to dodge AoE's, swashes do. In doing so we need to rely on ranged dps. Don't nerf Brigands, fix our pos ability HoS please.Lung Puncture (our combat skill debuff) should be more effective. It does help, but not as much as a Brigands Dispatch/Devitalize. Those two cripple a mobs defensive capability, make ours cripple their offensive capability (but obviously change the recast so it couldn't be chained).Lung puncture I can live with, but please <i>please</i> fix HoS, or give us a better ancient.

[Petgroup]

<div></div><div></div>Pull 1 mob with a Brig.Pull 8 mobs with a Swashbuckler.They all die at the same time. Brigs get to avoid AoE, Swashbucklers get to mow down multiple mobs.Xping, Swashbuckler. Raiding Brig. You can't be the best at both. If Swashies debuff skills are borked, they should be corrected.<p>Message Edited by nikecmh42 on <span class=date_text>09-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:51 AM</span>

[Dakkon_10]

<blockquote><hr>nikecmh42 wrote:<div></div><div></div>Pull 1 mob with a Brig.Pull 8 mobs with a Swashbuckler.They all die at the same time. Brigs get to avoid AoE, Swashbucklers get to mow down multiple mobs.Xping, Swashbuckler. Raiding Brig. You can't be the best at both. If Swashies debuff skills are borked, they should be corrected.<p>Message Edited by nikecmh42 on <span class="date_text">09-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:51 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Lol maybe if inspiration was used...If you are gonna compare AR to any swash ability, it should be Spurious Bravado, since they both cancel upon taking damage, both increase hate gain, and are both almost pointless solo. Hurricane is totally different.Hurricane is often greatly overrated. It hits up to 4 targets, and only has a 50% chance to proc at master. When soloing, it is unwise to pull more than one mob at a time, so it doesn't help unless the mobs are in a group. The same goes for grouping. For raiding, it is the dps equivalent of a needle in a hay stack, and does squat when forced to use ranged abilities. Still, out of all our ancient teachings, this is our best...But anyways, the solution is simple. Make Lung Puncture worth using, and for the love of god <b><i>make Hail of Steel worth using!!!</i></b> If anything, Lung Puncture should be the offensive version of dispatch, and Hail of Steel should be worth not having Amazing Reflexes.Oh, and leave Brigands the way they are. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[TofuPatty]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>The-Fourm-Pirate wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>We have [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ranged and AOE damage but strong debuffs, AOE avoidance, and good DPS, Swashbucklers have [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ranged damage (if hail of steel wasn't a broken piece of crap they wouldn't have this issue) and are weak on encounters with powerful AEs, but they have decent debuffs, good AE damage and good overall damage. Fix hail of steel (ranger equivilant too please) to scale with level and a Swashbuckler will be on par with a Brigand for jousting DPS.</p><hr></blockquote>How is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ranged a drawback if there's no need to be at ranged due to AR in the first place. <span>:smileytongue:</span>  Corsolander excepted. As a ranger I actually disagree with hail of steel and stream of arrows being fixed by scaling damage with level.  Don't get me wrong, they're complete and utter garbage as is, and I'd like to see them replaced with some form of useful skill, but I disliked stream of arrows back when it was powerful in DoF.  It was far too much of an easy button, just fire off all combat arts then click stream of arrows and go grab a drink or take a leak while you're rooted and stifled for the next 30 seconds, combat arts again while stream is refreshing, then click it and go afk again.  It was a big factor in the flavor of the month ranger back then, and made for some really lazy rangers. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TofuPatty on <span class=date_text>09-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 AM</span>

[Ganelonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dignastik wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vegter Leeuwen wrote:<BR> we beat it with 2 brigs so u dont need 8.<BR>and im sure the matron can be deafeated with 1 brig.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Vegter Leeuwen on <SPAN class=date_text>09-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:35 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Could you have possibly missed the point more than you did?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Heh, that applies to a lot of people who responded.  =-x</P> <P>I didn't make the post to complain about brigands or AR being overpowered, or Swashes being underpowered.  That isn't the point at all.  I think they are fine.</P> <P>I also didn't make the post to say these encounters are impossible with only one brigand, because they aren't.  Hell, they are probably -possible- with no brigand at all.  But because of the design of the encounters throughout the entire adventure pack, the more brigands you have, the easier it is.</P> <P>The problem comes when encounters are designed where instead of just one or two aoe that brigands get to ignore and other people get to mitigate... there is now a massive aoe that brigands get to ignore and nobody else is allowed to mitigate, plus another massive aoe that brigands get to ignore, and mitigating it will still get you killed, plus another aoe that brigands get to ignore, but it stuns everbody else for a long period of time, plus another aoe that brigands get to ignore, but it stifles everybody else for a long period of time, plus the inevitable more aoes that brigands will get to ignore that everyone else will get wasted by...  in one fight.</P> <P>See the problem here?  Aoe immunity is fine, when there's one or two of them that other people can still do something about to mitigate the effects of.  But when you are stacking 4+ aoes that every other class is powerless to do anything against, then the effectiveness of aoe immunity gets increased exponentially to the point that the class with aoe immunity is just plain better to have over anything else, dps-wise.</P> <P>Jousting an aoe or two is cool... but jousting 4 of them is ridiculous and destroys the value of any melee class that is not immune to aoes.</P><p>Message Edited by Ganelonn on <span class=date_text>09-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 AM</span>

[Petgroup]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ganelonn wrote:<div></div> <div></div>there is now a massive aoe that brigands get to ignore and nobody else is allowed to mitigate, plus another massive aoe that brigands get to ignore, and mitigating it will still get you killed, plus another aoe that brigands get to ignore, but it stuns everbody else for a long period of time, plus another aoe that brigands get to ignore, but it stifles everybody else for a long period of time, plus the inevitable more aoes that brigands will get to ignore that everyone else will get wasted by...  in one fight. <p>Jousting an aoe or two is cool... but jousting 4 of them is ridiculous and destroys the value of any melee class that is not immune to aoes.</p><hr></blockquote>You are doing the Direvine Matron WRONG.If you actually did it right, then the nerf brig post never would have been made.</div>

[TwistedFaith]

The problem is the difference DPS wise between a class like a Brigand and a Rangers is so small its not worth having a ranger in a raid. Brigands bring so much more to the table its not even funny.

[judged_one]

<P>Dispatch + AR </P> <P>2 of the most powerful raid tools. Enough said.</P> <P>And yes Brigands also do decent DPS -within 2-300 of T1 on single target. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Petgroup]

<div><blockquote><hr>judged_one wrote:<p>Dispatch + AR </p> <p>2 of the most powerful raid tools. Enough said.</p> <p>And yes Brigands also do decent DPS -within 2-300 of T1 on single target. </p> <hr></blockquote>Astonishing Awe and Enraging Demeanor.Torpor, Bolster, Oberon Barrier.Can go on all day with every class.</div>

[Scort]

<blockquote><hr>nikecmh42 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:Assuming people don't know how to play a class without even knowing them and making stupid assumptions is really being clueless.You have nothing to worry about because you have a god skill that every guild wants on their raids for every encounter in the game.Tell me where a swashbuckler with their mighty 200dps ranged skill is useful on the Matron over a wizard or brigand or a lot of other classes.Like we said, SOE will just copy and paste these skills to more and more mobs and it will be more than just 2 encounters. Soon it will be 3, then 4, then 5, etc. You know how SOE operates.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">09-23-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:54 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I just like to point out that if you say your class has to range the Matron, then 20 other people have to also.Quit complaining.</div><hr></blockquote>I would just like to point out, that you jsut totally missed the point.The thing you fail to see is, Brigands can keep doing their job on every single encounter. Swashbucklers are not designed to be range. Their range sucks and if they can't melee, then they are pretty much useless as they can't debuff and maintain them.It's pretty much like the deal with mezzing and other skills that were useless on raids back before they changed it. Illusionist were pretty much useless, except as mana batteries. Same thing here. A lot of raids don't want swashies on these raids when they have other people they can fill the slots with that are useful.Like has been said, fix our ranged DPS and hail of steel and maybe we wouldn't have such an issue with a god skill.Our Brigands parse in the top 10 with swashies all the time.<blockquote><hr>Ganelonn wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Dignastik wrote:<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Vegter Leeuwen wrote:<BR>we beat it with 2 brigs so u dont need 8.<BR>and im sure the matron can be deafeated with 1 brig.<BR><P>Message Edited by Vegter Leeuwen on <SPAN class=date_text>09-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:35 PM</SPAN><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Could you have possibly missed the point more than you did?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Heh, that applies to a lot of people who responded.  =-x</P><P>I didn't make the post to complain about brigands or AR being overpowered, or Swashes being underpowered.  That isn't the point at all.  I think they are fine.</P><P>I also didn't make the post to say these encounters are impossible with only one brigand, because they aren't.  Hell, they are probably -possible- with no brigand at all.  But because of the design of the encounters throughout the entire adventure pack, the more brigands you have, the easier it is.</P><P>The problem comes when encounters are designed where instead of just one or two aoe that brigands get to ignore and other people get to mitigate... there is now a massive aoe that brigands get to ignore and nobody else is allowed to mitigate, plus another massive aoe that brigands get to ignore, and mitigating it will still get you killed, plus another aoe that brigands get to ignore, but it stuns everbody else for a long period of time, plus another aoe that brigands get to ignore, but it stifles everybody else for a long period of time, plus the inevitable more aoes that brigands will get to ignore that everyone else will get wasted by...  in one fight.</P><P>See the problem here?  Aoe immunity is fine, when there's one or two of them that other people can still do something about to mitigate the effects of.  But when you are stacking 4+ aoes that every other class is powerless to do anything against, then the effectiveness of aoe immunity gets increased exponentially to the point that the class with aoe immunity is just plain better to have over anything else, dps-wise.</P><P>Jousting an aoe or two is cool... but jousting 4 of them is ridiculous and destroys the value of any melee class that is not immune to aoes.</P><p>Message Edited by Ganelonn on <span class=date_text>09-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Exactly. Then they like to use the AOEs back to back.It's the design of the encounters that make people obsolete, like Swashbucklers, while Brigands are able to be 100% effective pretty much all the time and can do their jobs pretty much all the time.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>09-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:23 PM</span>

[Petgroup]

<div></div>Sadly, posting anything else about the Matron would be me giving away strats, thus preventing me from saying what I want to.If a skill from a Swashbuckler is broken, make a post, if you have and they don't listen, welcome to the Chanter community for 2 years.Instead its the same old same old. Nerf Rangers, Nerf Summoners, Nerf Guardians, Nerf Brigs.<div></div>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>nikecmh42 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>judged_one wrote:<p>Dispatch + AR </p><p>2 of the most powerful raid tools. Enough said.</p><p>And yes Brigands also do decent DPS -within 2-300 of T1 on single target. </p><hr></blockquote>Astonishing Awe and Enraging Demeanor.Torpor, Bolster, Oberon Barrier.Can go on all day with every class.</div><hr></blockquote>Rangers?

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>nikecmh42 wrote:<div></div>Sadly, posting anything else about the Matron would be me giving away strats, thus preventing me from saying what I want to.If a skill from a Swashbuckler is broken, make a post, if you have and they don't listen, welcome to the Chanter community for 2 years.Instead its the same old same old. Nerf Rangers, Nerf Summoners, Nerf Guardians, Nerf Brigs.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Which is easier, bring 23 other classes up, or bring 1 class down?

[Petgroup]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>nikecmh42 wrote:<div></div>Sadly, posting anything else about the Matron would be me giving away strats, thus preventing me from saying what I want to.If a skill from a Swashbuckler is broken, make a post, if you have and they don't listen, welcome to the Chanter community for 2 years.Instead its the same old same old. Nerf Rangers, Nerf Summoners, Nerf Guardians, Nerf Brigs.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Which is easier, bring 23 other classes up, or bring 1 class down?<hr></blockquote>Brigs are fine, they deal T2 Dps even on Matron. They aren't dealing 2900 dps and the 2nd place toon is dealing 1100. Even with AoE immune, they don't deal assasin dps.No need to bring them down. As for some other classes that parse 3x more than they should, thats a different story.Like I said with the Summoner Nerf, Nerfing Summoners would not make Wizards T1 Dps.Nerfing Amazing Reflexes will not "Magically" fix the Swashbuckler class.</div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>nikecmh42 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>nikecmh42 wrote:<div></div>Sadly, posting anything else about the Matron would be me giving away strats, thus preventing me from saying what I want to.If a skill from a Swashbuckler is broken, make a post, if you have and they don't listen, welcome to the Chanter community for 2 years.Instead its the same old same old. Nerf Rangers, Nerf Summoners, Nerf Guardians, Nerf Brigs.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Which is easier, bring 23 other classes up, or bring 1 class down?<hr></blockquote>Brigs are fine, they deal T2 Dps even on Matron. They aren't dealing 2900 dps and the 2nd place toon is dealing 1100. Even with AoE immune, they don't deal assasin dps.No need to bring them down. As for some other classes that parse 3x more than they should, thats a different story.Like I said with the Summoner Nerf, Nerfing Summoners would not make Wizards T1 Dps.Nerfing Amazing Reflexes will not "Magically" fix the Swashbuckler class.</div><hr></blockquote>They didn't nerf Summoners. They just made Summoner DPS harder to achieve maximium potential.

[Petgroup]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:They didn't nerf Summoners. They just made Summoner DPS harder to achieve maximium potential.<hr></blockquote>Right, because to you play one first hand. Conjuror's got hit hard. Necros got....And Second Dawn uses 4 Brigs they don't have, to beat the Matron.Keep them coming.</div><p>Message Edited by nikecmh42 on <span class=date_text>09-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:56 PM</span>

[Mastire]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nikecmh42 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR>They didn't nerf Summoners. They just made Summoner DPS harder to achieve maximium potential.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Right, because to you play one first hand. Conjuror's got hit hard. Necros got....<BR><BR>And Second Dawn uses 4 Brigs they don't have, to beat the Matron.<BR><BR>Keep them coming.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by nikecmh42 on <SPAN class=date_text>09-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:56 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Necro's and Conj's are supose to be the same DPS as brigs ans swashies <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> there not supose tobe the Top DPS class, as they were.</P>

[illy586]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mastire wrote:<BR>Necro's and Conj's are supose to be the same DPS as brigs ans swashies <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> there not supose Toby the Top DIPS class, as they were.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Eh... that's not really fully true, Swash deals more in the AE category, while a Brigand is single target, kind of like Wizards to Warlocks.</P> <P>And Brigands are fine, they parse lower then Assassins and Wizards 80% of the time which=T2 dps period, and Swash is in the same area.</P> <P>Rogues are fine the way they are. If any class needs to be nerfed it's necros because atm they pretty much can own the parse as a T2 dps class.</P> <P> </P>

[Dakkon_10]

I think SOE needs to come up with more combat arts that would be helpful to avoid/absorb AoEs. Not copying AR, of course, it should always remain the best, but other melee classes need SOMETHING to do besides joust with ranged auto-attack. Here are some ideas *I* think would be fun to have:self only buff, .5 sec cast, lasts until canceled, 20 sec recast,EFFECT: Stifles Caster & Makes caster Immune to AOEself only buff, 2 sec cast, lasts 10 sec, 30 sec recast,EFFECT: Absorbs the next AOE attack, removing any effect or damage it may cause. Instead, Knocks caster back and stuns caster for 1.5 sec.group buff, 4 sec cast, lasts 30 sec, 1 min recast,EFFECT: Makes caster's group Immune to AOE effects, stuns caster.And so on, and so on. The numbers are just off the top of my head, they could be tweaked around if thought to be too powerful. None of these effects would be equivalent of the Brigand ''Easy Button'', they would all require good timing and raid setup. Sure the addition would make encounters who use AOEs less effective, but as the OP stated, so would having only brigands for melee classes.

[Gungo]

Or they could change AR to just ignore Damage from aoe's. instead of a total aoe immunity. which would make stifles, stuns, mezzes, charms, add spawning aoe's, still work. They could also design encounters they do not want AR to be to powerful in by giving Epics uncurable, but resistable Damage shields. If the brigands misses a resist AR will fall and  the brig may get hit by the AoE.

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:They could also design encounters they do not want AR to be to powerful in by giving Epics uncurable, but resistable Damage shields. If the brigands misses a resist AR will fall and  the brig may get hit by the AoE.<hr></blockquote>Damage Shields do not break AR.

[Gaellen]

To the OP: You spent the first two paragraphs of your post explaining why swashies are cool.  I agree, they are.  They always parse high (as high as t1 in most encounters), they have good debuffs, they're great for hate transfer, the list goes on.  Brigands don't have a most of that.  Instead, brigands get to avoid AEs.  To me, it looks like balance, that's all.  Their generally lower dps is compensated for by the fact that they can stay in through AE's.   So few encounters are effected by this that I cannot imagine a need for it to be changed.  Every class has some encounters they do worse at than others... <div></div>

[Petgroup]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gaellen wrote:To the OP: You spent the first two paragraphs of your post explaining why swashies are cool.  I agree, they are.  They always parse high (as high as t1 in most encounters), they have good debuffs, they're great for hate transfer, the list goes on.  Brigands don't have a most of that.  Instead, brigands get to avoid AEs.  To me, it looks like balance, that's all.  Their generally lower dps is compensated for by the fact that they can stay in through AE's.   So few encounters are effected by this that I cannot imagine a need for it to be changed.  <b>Every class has some encounters they do worse at than others</b>... <div></div><hr></blockquote>Well said.</div>

[Whitemane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Which is easier, bring 23 other classes up, or bring 1 class down?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Brigs are fine, they deal T2 Dps even on Matron. They aren't dealing 2900 dps and the 2nd place toon is dealing 1100. Even with AoE immune, they don't deal assasin dps.<BR><BR>No need to bring them down. As for some other classes that parse 3x more than they should, thats a different story.<BR><BR>Like I said with the Summoner Nerf, Nerfing Summoners would not make Wizards T1 Dps.<BR><BR>Nerfing Amazing Reflexes will not "Magically" fix the Swashbuckler class.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have to agree here totally with PG. You cannot seriously be asking for a nerf on brigands due to this. Even not using 2 examples from encounters most people will never see, Brigands do decent DPS not T1 even with the AoE immunity thier Immunity is not encounter breaking. Brigands do NOT need a nerf.</P> <P> The OP post struck me as total Parse envy on 2 encounters. If you want to reroll so you can do t2 dps allways and outparse 23 others on 2 encounters go for it.</P><p>Message Edited by Whitemane on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:15 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>They could also design encounters they do not want AR to be to powerful in by giving Epics uncurable, but resistable Damage shields. If the brigands misses a resist AR will fall and  the brig may get hit by the AoE.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Damage Shields do not break AR.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry i ment they should make certain dam shields break AR unless resisted. My point was instead of changing the class change the encounters.  Call it whatever you want instea dof damage shield call it spell feedback or a weak rear riposte. Tactics should change as NPC's progress in tiers. AR may work on 1 npc , but maybe it wont work on another. Bascially don't let Ar be a total and absolute immunity to  AoE's for the rest of eq2. This won't change a brigands role, since it will only be specific encounters.<BR>

[Rokjin]

<DIV>An interesting side point..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would people say that Direvine Matron can be done WITHOUT Brigands? Or certain other Freeport only classes?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or other encounters that can be done WITHOUT Qeynos classes?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With PvP, SOE has to design encounters that do NOT require a certain class to beat that is limited to Freeport/Qeynos..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Otherwise no raiding guild will be able to progress much on a PvP server unless they are in Exile.</DIV>

[Dakkon_10]

The OP never said they should nerf brigands. The complaint is about how they are designing the new raid encounters. With these encounters, other melee classes are completely unable to do their job. When has a Brigand been unable to do theirs? Well, Corsolander, but every other melee too. The point is, if the toughest encounters in the game can be beaten easier simply by having more brigands, then something is wrong. I don't think a nerf is the answer here, since these are only 2 encounters. I think it would be better to give the other melee classes something to deal with the AoE besides jousting, which is as lame as body pulling.

[Petgroup]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dakkon_1007 wrote:The OP never said they should nerf brigands. The complaint is about how they are designing the new raid encounters. With these encounters, other melee classes are completely unable to do their job. When has a Brigand been unable to do theirs? Well, Corsolander, but every other melee too. The point is, if the toughest encounters in the game can be beaten easier simply by having more brigands, then something is wrong. I don't think a nerf is the answer here, since these are only 2 encounters. I think it would be better to give the other melee classes something to deal with the AoE besides jousting, which is as lame as body pulling.<hr></blockquote>Like I said before, if you have to joust an encounter, <u><b>everyone</b></u> but the MT and Brig has to also. Why not give every single class something else instead of jousting ?Now go ahead and tell me that casters can max range an unmaxrangeable aoe, go ahead tell me. You know you want to.This post was made to nerf Brigs. Slice it anyway you like. Thats the deal. The Direvine Matron could be beat with 8 Necros faster than 8 Brigs. I'd even go out on a limb and say TWICE as fast.Brigs with AoE immune are T2 Dps. Assasins without AoE immune are T1 Dps. EVEN ON THE MATRON.Brigs get aoe immune. Swashies get alot better dps and even moreso on multi mob encounters.</div>

[Scort]

Yet again, a lot of you totally missed one of his main points. It's NOT about 2 encounters. It's about these 2 encounters and more and more encounters to come because of SOE's cut and paste ways. You honestly think Matron will be the last of the mobs to use 3 AOEs with adds using 2 AOEs and making melee debuffers (swash) useless?SOE's history shows that they will cut and paste these skills on mob after mob after mob after mob after mob....That's what's he is talking about. The pattern. The way SOE works, it won't be just 2 mobs. It will end up being 5 or 6 more more until they come up with another batch of skills that they will cut and paste to 6+ mobs.Chel'Drak and Matron both render the Swash totally useless. With the AOEs coming so close together (30 seconds on stomp which practically kills us if we get caught in it), we are relegated to helping kill adds and use ranged on these mobs and our ranged DPS is total crap. We can't do our jobs because our debuffs rely on melee skills. Brigands can ALWAYS do their job with their god skill activated.Our AOE skill got nerfed to heck and back because a certain developer was affraid of the backlash from his fellow Brigand players. He admitted to doing the nerf without ANY testing whatsoever and it continues to this day to be nerfed to darn near uselessness.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:06 PM</span>

[Rezikai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>They could also design encounters they do not want AR to be to powerful in by giving Epics uncurable, but resistable Damage shields. If the brigands misses a resist AR will fall and  the brig may get hit by the AoE.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Damage Shields do not break AR.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry i ment they should make certain dam shields break AR unless resisted. My point was instead of changing the class change the encounters.  Call it whatever you want instea dof damage shield call it spell feedback or a weak rear riposte. Tactics should change as NPC's progress in tiers. AR may work on 1 npc , but maybe it wont work on another. Bascially don't let Ar be a total and absolute immunity to  AoE's for the rest of eq2. This won't change a brigands role, since it will only be specific encounters.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>not wanting to post this crap thread up as something usefull since it's turned into a buff envy thread/shouting match.. </P> <P>but my AR goes down from Damage shields all the time.... what Damage shields are you guys going against?...  the only one i've seen it not break on is the Divine one.... <BR></P><p>Message Edited by Porkchop133 on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:01 PM</span>

[Petgroup]

<div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:Yet again, a lot of you totally missed one of his main points. It's NOT about 2 encounters. It's about these 2 encounters and more and more encounters to come because of SOE's cut and paste ways. You honestly think Matron will be the last of the mobs to use 3 AOEs with adds using 2 AOEs and making melee debuffers (swash) useless?SOE's history shows that they will cut and paste these skills on mob after mob after mob after mob after mob....That's what's he is talking about. The pattern. The way SOE works, it won't be just 2 mobs. It will end up being 5 or 6 more more until they come up with another batch of skills that they will cut and paste to 6+ mobs.Chel'Drak and Matron both render the Swash totally useless. With the AOEs coming so close together (30 seconds on stomp which practically kills us if we get caught in it), we are relegated to helping kill adds and use ranged on these mobs and our ranged DPS is total crap. We can't do our jobs because our debuffs rely on melee skills. Brigands can ALWAYS do their job with their god skill activated.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">09-25-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:03 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>1. We used a Swash when we beat the Matron. Swashbucklers are far from useless. If you don't like them /quit /reroll. I'm a Coercer. I have spent 90% of My Everquest 2 life as the red headed step child. You cannot begin to feel useless.2. You are giving away losing strats. I find it laughable but cannot comment on why you are horribly wrong.3. Assasins are not ranged ? Are they ? Why do they still deal T1 Dps on Matron and Chel'Drak ? Give me a straight answer. Why ? They apparently have to joust like everyone else right ?4. You are predicting the future, and I tend to agree that SoE does enjoy the old Cntrl-V, we cannot say when raid mobs are in EoF. </div>

[Scort]

I haven't given away ANY loosing strat. What are you babling about? We kill Chel'drak every week and are still working on finding a working strategy to kill Matron. It takes us a little longer because we don't use exploits or have help from Devs/GMs like some guilds do.I am just stating how things will probably go based on SOEs proven track record. That's what the OP was concerned about and thus the meat of his post. SOE has a pattern and the pattern does not bode well for us.Regardless of what you think, most of us do not call for the god skill of the Brogands to get nerfed, we just ask that SOE make us able to do our jobs, like the illusionist and coercers did and SOE finally made it happen. Just fix our AOE attacks and fix our ranged attacks to where they are not utter crap.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:22 PM</span>

[Petgroup]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:I haven't given away ANY loosing strat. What are you babling about?I am just stating how things will probably go based on SOEs proven track record. That's what the OP was concerned about and thus the meat of his post. SOE has a pattern and the pattern does not bode well for us.Regardless of what you think, most of us do not call for the god skill of the Brogands to get nerfed, we just ask that SOE make us able to do our jobs, like the illusionist and coercers did and SOE finally made it happen. Just fix our AOE attacks and fix our ranged attacks to where they are not utter crap.<hr></blockquote>Whats wrong with Swashbucklers AoE attacks ? I played 1 and mowed down 15 TT basket quests mobs at once in under 30 secs. If something is wrong, make a post about it instead. I don't play a swash full time, so I can't comment on the raid aspect of aoe. Whats broke ?The finally getting what they want aspect of a Chanter is wrong. I did not want to mez an epic thats never gonna be mezzed in the first place and LOSE 20 seconds off my mez on normal mobs. I did not want my top dps spell (omg 2k damage look out) to double in its recast time. I did not want to lose my self deaggro spell. I did not want to have my Hate spell stop at 52 and not have compensation for the spell I don't get at 66 because SoE didn't plan leveling past 50. I did not want to have my new flashy control spells to be 100% immune on half of the raid mobs in the game. Yeah, lemme stun that mob and um why is it still attacking ?The only thing I am happy with as a chanter is the Agility Line AA's. I honestly enjoy them and it makes casting my sad spells, kinda fun. I accept my horrible dps (as it  should be) as I bring alot to the raid in other ways. You have to accept your inability to stay in 24-7 as it gets offsetted by your dps boost.</div><p>Message Edited by nikecmh42 on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:45 PM</span>

[Atmosphear1993]

<P>Despite the benefits of having a Swashbuckler in a raid, there is still a push to betray to brigand due to the view that Swashbucklers are less useful in raid situations.  It is starting to really bum me out being left out of certain key raids week after week in favor of a different class.  I don't think any class should be considered as a filler class for raids.  But when you play a class that isn't as important on raids, one starts to loose interest in the gameplay since there is little else to do.</P> <P>I am hoping EoF will make Swashbucklers more desirable in raids. </P>

[Neue Reg]

<DIV>Again this thread *sigh*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am in a raiding guild on Oasis.  Know what? you will not find any of the members of my guild here upset over the brigands AR ability.  Know why?  They love it.  It helps the raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So your a raiding swashy and here yelling that its not fair we have AR ability?  I am sure your guild appriciates that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And then if they nerf the AR ability, Ill bet most of the rest of the guild is onna be pretty [Removed for Content] off cause you were leading the lynching.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as I am concerned, every class has benefits and things that suck.  Saying your useless cause you cant engage Matron is purely an excuse to not learn the mob and do whats needed to help your guild.  If your guild needs you mowing down mobs to clear the teleport path, that officially doesnt make you usless right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the record I totally agree swashies need something to further define them, or fix some of the borked skills.  Hell give em AR, I really dont care one way or another.  Just get your facts straight before you come here slamming AR.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Load a parse from a epic without a brigand on the raid, then load one with.  You tell me.</DIV>

[Scort]

I never said SOEs idea of fixing chanters so they could use thier skills, was a good fix. It's a STEP in the right direction.In WoW, you get to use all your skills that you have at your disposal as a class from grouping to raiding. SOE wants to nerf those skills so they can have an easier time of making mobs difficult.It all comes down to having WAY too many classes and spreading skills out WAY too thin and then designing certain encounters to where you HAVE to have certain classes or you don't win and making certain classes pretty much useless.It was messed up to have 24 classes and limit raids to 24 people. 24 classes would have been fine in EQ1 where you had 40+ people in raids.24 classes and then designing encounters where classes are useless and classes absolutely required (meaning people will be left out) doesn't do well with keeping players happy in that they get left out of raids.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:29 PM</span>

[Diapause]

I hate to post in this deliberate nerf thread, but dam how shortsighted can you be? You do realize that the Brigand's ubah debuffs help you and the raid moreso than it does the Brig? That AE immunity still only gets Brigs into T2, and that's trying hard.With this logic, lets nerf enchanters since they're the only ones that can mez epics and some encounters can be trivialized by mezzing adds..With this logic, lets nerf summoners again since they split their aggro with the pet, give our hearts/shards, can have a mage or scout do damage, and are T1 DPS anytime they wanna be.With this insane logic, let's nerf Warlocks because in T6, PPTR trash mobs were trivialized by the massive AOE's. Oh wait, Swashy's were kickin a@# there too, u get the nerf bat too!Hey wait! With a Assassin and Swashy hate transfer, u let the raid hold aggro better than without it. Nerf Swashies!See how shortsighted your view is? Look at the skill against the balance of other class defining or ubah skills and maybe that will give you some perspective. This coming from someone who admitted toping the parse for 99% of all other content in his guild and having the cojones to ask to nerf another character thats doing less damage than them. The audacity.Diapause 70 TempSeptro 70 BrigQuattra 70 WarlockOctro 70 Troub

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>Please, for the love of gods, I wish people would learn to read...</DIV> <DIV>This isnt about how brigands are so 1337 that they have to be nerfed. This isnt about how AR is overpowered. This isnt about how AR must ne nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is about some raid encounters being unbalanced in a way that makes brigands far more usefull then their sibling class, wich in itself is isnt much of an issue. Raids shouldnt be sterotypes anyways. What <STRONG><EM>ís an issue</EM></STRONG> is that SoE really likes sticking to one way of encounter design at a time and if they decide upon making this certain type the new standard, it would <EM><STRONG>make</STRONG></EM> AR overpowered in raiding. As is, rogues are decently balanced, we outdamage brigs whilst they out-debuff us, they can avoid AE's whilst we do much more AE damage and can transfer hate from that to tank. Certainly Id change some smaller things if I was a dev, but thats beyond the point. As long as both rogues can do their job its oki. If the situation ends up where one of the rogues has a massive advantage to do their job in general raiding its not oki.</DIV> <DIV>If next generation raids has limitations that mean illusionists can only add mana regens half fight whilst coercers can do it during all fight is that oki?</DIV> <DIV>If necro pets have 50% higher hate gain then conjuror pets, is that oki?</DIV> <DIV>If raid mobs in future resists zerker taunts twice as often as guardian taunts is that oki?</DIV> <DIV>If mobs start to dispell defiler wards but leaves mystic wards alone is that oki?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some quite extreme examples and no big issue if one or two mobs utilize such skills, but would it be oki for one subclass to only do their job halftime whilst the other can do it fulltime because of some mechanic and have this as general rule?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See the issue? Its not really about today, its about whats to come.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Snarks]

The only legitimate problems between the two classes are:1) Defensive debuffs scale in importance as the mob becomes higher level (especially orange) and the mob becomes x2 < x3 < x4.2) Offensive debuffs are rendered nearly useless in epic fights where dps/haste debuffs are capped at 50%. If this cap is not reached by the shamans on your raid, and held permanently, they aren't doing their job.3) The reliability / consistency of landing debuffs as a mob gets harder (in level and raid size) greatly favors the brigand. The most obvious reasons for this are multiple AOE encounters.The two real fights where the classes you bring to a raid can 'make it or break it' are Matron and less importantly Chel'Drak. On all other encounters in the game, both dps and mitigation debuffs are entirely optional. Therefore, its important to look at the usefulness of these in the setting in which they are more applicable. Both of these raids have a single level 75 epic x4 mob which is linked to a chest. Both of these mobs have 2 aoe's, and depending on your group setup, keeping the swashbucker 10s debuff on a mob can be quite impossible to achieve consistancy. Either the debuff just doesnt land (not uncommon on an orange mob) or the timer expires when an aoe is incoming.The fact of the matter is that swashbuckler debuffs on both of these fights are undeniably optional. Though the 10s dps debuff might have some use if a shaman dies or is otherwise distracted, its important not to exaggerate its importance to the class as many people in this thread seem to do. Lung puncture is MOST useful on low level green mobs, and LEAST useful on high level orange/red mobs.Dispatch is LEAST useful on low level green mobs, and MOST useful on high level orange/red mobs.Swash DPS is MOST useful on groups of mobs, and LEAST useful on single target mobs that AOE.Brigand DPS is LEAST useful on groups of mobs, and MOST useful on single target mobs that cast aoes.If the tendency towards raid (and especially very difficult raid encounters) usefulness isnt as clear as daylight, your dillusions to the rogue situation stemming from ignorance/ego/etc have taken their toll.I almost wish they just gave traumatic swipe to swashbucklers to balance, but when used by a brigand who can constantly stay on a mob, even the usefulness of this trait is amplified in their favor.There is a lot to like about the swashbuckler class, and I know I wont be switching to Brigand anytime soon - but I really don't believe subclasses should be so clearly divided between heroic and epic content.<div></div>

[KillSlow]

<DIV>Every class should have ar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>that way assassins can dps better</DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the classes are different but the same, why do you want them to be the same?</DIV> <DIV>both have advantages and dis-advantages</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>make ts swash only?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>how about giving brigs hate x-fer</DIV>

[The-Fourm-Pirate]

I still say fix or replace Hail of Steel and make the damage/casting skills mean somthing (Crush/slash/pierice would effect auto attack damage rather than just accuracy, as would destruction for damage spells and ministration for heals. Ordnation, subjugation ect could get slight duration bonuses) and swashbucklers will be even better than Brigands. I wouldn't even care if they were, I just don't feel like being nerfed, I played CH in SWG and from that pile of BS I learned that if SoE nerfs a class, they won't stop at sufficient to make them not fotm. The first CH nerf balanced the class fine except a few overpowered pets with huge kinetic resist, so to fix the pets they nerfed almost every worthwhile  creature in the game, then they nerfed the pets again and then they finally just removed the class because they thought they hadn't [Removed for Content] everyone who played them off enough.

[Gaellen]

<hr size="2" width="100%">This is about some raid encounters being unbalanced in a way that makes brigands far more usefull then their sibling class, wich in itself is isnt much of an issue. Raids shouldnt be sterotypes anyways. <hr size="2" width="100%"> What rubbish.  The majority of raids in this game, from t5 till now, have been this way.  Some classes can excel, some suffer.  There are other mobs out there with back to back AEs, you know.  There are mobs that resist different types of damage and make certain classes less useful.  There are mobs that require specific strats (which often means, specific ways of using specific abilities) - that's the way raiding IS.  If raiding was about everybody being equal in all situations and all cases, then we'd pick a class called "raider" and all do the same dps, have the same abilities, same HP and Power, same resists, and so on. You feel bad because for these specific encounters you're not as uber as normal.  I doubt there is a single dps raider who could not point out at least one raid mob where they have had this happen, if not more.  <div></div>

[Dakkon_10]

Tell me, when is a Brigand ever unable to do their job in a raid? Sure there are fights where a brig isn't as helpful, but never a fight where they are useless.I am never a fan of balance, but swashes seem to have been left behind. Taking away the DoF ancient teachings, Brigand and Swashbuckler are perfectly balanced. Swash is dps that can debuff, Brig is debuffer that can dps. Now compare the DoF ancient teachings:<u><b>Hurricane vs. Double up</b></u>Two very useful abilities.<u><b>Lung Puncture vs. Dispatch</b></u>Fair enough, offensive debuff vs defensive debuff. Although dispatch is useful against tough mobs and lung puncture is useful against... easy mobs.<u><b>Hail of Steel vs. Amazing Reflexes</b></u>Or in other words, Useless vs. Incredibly useful.And there you have it. As said above, Fix HoS or replace it with something useful, and tweak lung puncture to make a noticeable difference in the offense of mobs higher than green con......and for the love of god, don't think that I want Brigands nerfed. They are fine the way they are Lol.

[Deeds]

<P>The grass is always greener on the other side aint it???</P> <P> </P> <P>Go ahead and betray then.</P> <P> </P> <P>Just dont be surprised that you are gaining a lot more agro on raids and have to back off or die, and that your AoE damage sucks.</P> <P> </P> <P>And I see you had no problems when you were the #1 parser through most of KoS.  How do you think the assasins, rangers, wizards, warlocks felt about that????</P><p>Message Edited by Deedbit on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:48 AM</span>

[NosajMa]

I play a 70 swash on Unrest, and after reading through this thread felt the need to reply.Looks like some of you still aren't reading the OP close enough.  Let's restate it once and for all: he is <b>NOT</b> asking for a brigand nerf.  If those of you complaining that that's what he's asking for would actually read his post more carefully, you'd realize that.  He has a concern that future encounters designed by SOE will be just like Chel'Drak and Matron, in which swashbuckler usefulness is non-existent; i.e. there's no /need/ for a swash, any other dps would suffice if not be better.  He's not complaining about Chel'Drak and Matron; he's not upset about an encounter that lowers his dps significantly; he's concerned, and rightly so, that SOE will get it into their heads to make most if not all encounters in the future like this.Want proof that his concern is valid?  Look at Nizara.  Tough zone, designed for a well-geared group of 70's.  Sure, I have no problem with that.  We all want a challenge.  There's some nifty challenges in there too.  Target locking, Flame Claw, etc.  But they're /way/ overused.  If one or two named had unique abilities like the target locking, it'd be fine.  But when every other group of mobs in the zone does that, when you're getting multiple flame claws on the MT from a single group of mobs, it's overdone.  Yet SOE released it that way anyway.  They came up with those ideas, and they cut 'n pasted them.The OP is concerned about the same thing happening in future raids.  To play devil's advocate, I realize it gets harder and harder for SOE to come up with new, challenging raids that are different and not too easy.  But when they rely on a particular tactic that effectively destroys a subclass's usefulness, it also destroys the fun for anyone who plays that subclass.  I say this with absolute certainty because I've encountered the same thing.  Chel'Drak, I'm relegated to staying with the add tank, trying to pull adds off the MT, burn down the few that I can even touch (shadowy thief for the lose), and waste a few seconds every now and then with HoS on Chel'Drak.  As for Matron, pretty much same thing: burn down adds, HoS when able, ranged the whole time.Swashbuckler != ranger.  I don't enjoy ranged fighting.  I'm glad I have the ability to do so, but it is not as fun.  If I wanted ranged, I'd roll a ranger or wizard.  All that said, I would hope that SOE is paying attention to threads like this, and keeps constructive feedback in mind in the future when designing raid encounters.  I play this game to have fun.  I have the most fun when I get cool new gear for my toons.  The best gear does and should come from raids.  When an encounter comes along where my class is useless, you're killing my fun, and if the game isn't fun for me, I'm going to spend my money elsewhere.  I don't have to spend $30 a month for my two accounts when there's other things to do.Overall suggestion here: continue to design new, interesting encounters.  Continue to come up with stuff we haven't seen before.  But by all means, try not to make /any/ class feel useless on a raid.  Also, I think it was Snark? who nailed it dead-on: swash was designed for heroics, brig was designed for raids.  I've felt this myself before but never had it put into words so precisely.  Thank you.<div></div>

[Scort]

Deedbit, doesn't sound like you read anything here.As far as resist goes that had been discussed. Orange mobs pretty much negate most resist. You can have 15k resist and still get hit really hard. I know people that have 13k resist that get hit just as hard on Matron as people that only have 7k.Lung puncture is pretty much useless. It has no noticeable effect.Hurricane got nerfed to heck and back because someone was afraid the Brigands would gripe too much so, it was dropped to 50% at MASTER. Was a real kick in the teeth for us, yet AR was left alone.Hail of Steel just sucks plain and simple. Our ranged sucks plain and simple because we were relegated to using brawler equipment that's only used to pull with.Our Brigands parses right there with swashies all the time. They can do their job 100% of the time. When playing joust, we can only do our jobs part of the time. The more AOEs we avoid, the more useless we become. The less time we have to debuff, if at all.I would gladly give up hurricane and Hail of steel for AR, or some of our skills fixed or whatever.Encounters should not be designed to make classes useless. Every time a class is told they are gonna have to sit out for someone that is more useful, the more frustrated the players become. They already spread certain required skills too thin by having too many classes with a 24 man raid limit, they don't need to deny more people the chance to raid that mob they want to help bring down.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:21 PM</span>

[TwistedFaith]

Welcome to the world of the ranger, no debuffs/buffs, zero utlity and lower dps compared to assasins.

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:Welcome to the world of the ranger, no debuffs/buffs, zero utlity and lower dps compared to assasins.<hr></blockquote>Don't forget arrow cost.  And that assassins just look cooler baby!</div>

[Diapause]

Swashies Rendered useless?? So let me get this straight, Brigs with AR come out 4-5th on a parse behind Assassins, Necros, Conjurors, Swashies and tied somewhere with Rangers, Wizzies, Monks, Bruisers, and even Beserkers in off. stance who all have to joust/range/time AEs?So umm yea, we're overpowered.Newsflash - all Assassins quit ur toons and level up Brigands! Give up that top spot on the raid parse so you can stay in AE range and come out in 5th!!Someone send this dude over to the Shadowknight forums so he can get a real taste of useless raid toons.. lolz

[Iseabeil]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaellen wrote:<BR>What rubbish.  The majority of raids in this game, from t5 till now, have been this way.  Some classes can excel, some suffer.  There are other mobs out there with back to back AEs, you know.  There are mobs that resist different types of damage and make certain classes less useful.  There are mobs that require specific strats (which often means, specific ways of using specific abilities) - that's the way raiding IS. <BR><BR>If raiding was about everybody being equal in all situations and all cases, then we'd pick a class called "raider" and all do the same dps, have the same abilities, same HP and Power, same resists, and so on.<BR><BR>You feel bad because for these specific encounters you're not as uber as normal.  I doubt there is a single dps raider who could not point out at least one raid mob where they have had this happen, if not more. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Reading a post totally before replying is a good thing. If you actually read all I wrote, its <EM>no issue </EM>to me that some classes are better in some fights and some less usefull in some, thats kool, thats even good for crying out loud,<STRONG> </STRONG><EM>it becomes an issue when a certain tactic that cripples a class becomes standard<STRONG>.</STRONG> </EM>Spelled it out enough now? If this latest invention of SoE's doesnt become standard in EoF, then all is good, you won't see me complain if there is a couple of fights where my usefullness is limited, but SoE is SoE, we all seen it happen before, how classes go from usefull to totally useless in raiding because of mechanics, and I personally would hate to see that happen again. I got a swashie at 70/50, monk at 70/50, warden at 70/50, a templar close to it and an illusionist in leveling, if they mess up my favorite character I can betray, i can switch main, there are many options, but I don't want to see swashies go the way of rangers.<BR>Bottom line: If I am a bad choise for a few encounters I really don't care. If I become a bad choise for raiding in general then I care. With EoF around the corner, the risk that the most recent mechanics will be reused is not very small.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diapause wrote:<BR>Swashies Rendered useless?? So let me get this straight, Brigs with AR come out 4-5th on a parse behind Assassins, Necros, Conjurors, Swashies and tied somewhere with Rangers, Wizzies, Monks, Bruisers, and even Beserkers in off. stance who all have to joust/range/time AEs?<BR><BR>So umm yea, we're overpowered.<BR><BR>Newsflash - all Assassins quit ur toons and level up Brigands! Give up that top spot on the raid parse so you can stay in AE range and come out in 5th!!<BR><BR>Someone send this dude over to the Shadowknight forums so he can get a real taste of useless raid toons.. lolz<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Show me where any swashie has said its oki that rangers DPS is unproportional in raids? Show me where any swashie said they should leave SK's as they are? Show me where anyone claims to have rolled a rogue to be pure dps a lá predator? Are you honestly saying that because we are not the worst off class in raids, that we should accept sliding back and back in use? Only those in the bottom are allowed to be concerened now?</P> <P>I'd be happy to lose some dps in return for having debuffs that makes a real differance and encounters where I can focus on doing my job. Give swashies the ability to cripple a mobs offense in the way a brig cripples their defence, and give us a way to deal with AE's and its all nice and dandy. Assassains and rangers both have more range attacks then rogues. brigs/swash share one thrown CA and swashies got *1* extra ranged CA that at current is pathetic even at M1. Sorcs and summoners both have plenty of ranged spells and in the the end monks, bruisers and zerkers are fighters not dps classes. Even with Hail of Steel working well and our debuffs meaning somethin, brigand will still be the masters of debuffs as they can stay in debuff range whilst HoS roots you out of debuff range, wich will keep balance of brigs = debuff/dps and swashies = dps/debuff.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[heke]

Well, it IS kind of funny that the OP only compared the swashi to the brigand. Rangers are mostly at the top of the dps list and they don't have to fear aoe either. Assassins are also top although they have to joust too. And any caster dd will also do more damage in those two encounters mentioned than a swashi. And swashis do more dps than brigands in most other encounters. So i don't really get it that the brigand is the only class the OP compares his class to. And all this whining is based on one assumption anyway: the encounter in EOF will _probably_ be as matron and chel'drak are. If you leave that out it comes down to: my swashi is underpowered because i do less dps than a brigand in 2 out of 20 encounters...I agree on the part that aoe that ignore resists are unfair to certain classes. I don't agree on the "any raid needs a brigand" as any raid needs lots of classes really. That is not the problem. The problem is that some classes can be done without. And that should not be. In a game where raiding is the only content (200 or 300 quests per expansion are quite few for a year of gameplay, quite few for more than 1-2 month actually) EVERY class should be useful to a raid. Brigands where useless, TOTALLY useless, for many months of raiding, like from january to september 95 or something, or at least from the time every raid mob got that aoe (forgot the name) until the combat changes. And it sucked to be a brigand. Well, nobody played brigand at that time anyway. Enchanters had their period of uselessness during DoF days. SKs seem to be mostly useless atm. Swashis are not useless now. Even if they are subpar in those two encounters.<div></div>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>heketon wrote:Well, it IS kind of funny that the OP only compared the swashi to the brigand. Rangers are mostly at the top of the dps list and they don't have to fear aoe either.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Rangers dont have to fear the aoe? Oh thats right because they have all ranged attacks right and there's no need to backstab etc....Hmmm.............You know what your right, i'm going to try that on Lord Vyemn next time, just stay at ranged and nail him, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I bet if we had 8 rangers we'd kill him so much easier right.

[KillSlow]

<P>you know what is funny with the right group setups that would own lol</P> <P>3 tanks and it would be 45sec fight lol</P> <P> </P> <P>not every guild has the same setups, same class dpsers top of parse</P> <P>or kill the mobs the same way</P> <P>and not everyone plays their class the same</P> <P>dog ae immunity FTW assassins love it</P>

[Diapause]

<blockquote><hr>Iseabeil wrote:it becomes an issue when a certain tactic that cripples a class becomes standard<hr></blockquote>You guys and your indefensible positions. You are talking about encounters that no one has yet experienced in EoF and you are acting as if your class is made [Removed for Content] because 2 out of all the current raid encounters you felt unneeded. And you are 'hoping' they don't make em all like the Matron.For your sake, I hope they make every EoF raid just like the Corsolander. Then maybe you'll be happy because then all melee classes would be screwed. I can just see your post now:'Yarr - me backstabs not be working! Avast ye matey, this encounter is the suxor, nerf Rangers!!'

[Gaellen]

<blockquote><hr>Diapause wrote:<blockquote><hr>Iseabeil wrote:it becomes an issue when a certain tactic that cripples a class becomes standard<hr></blockquote>You guys and your indefensible positions. You are talking about encounters that no one has yet experienced in EoF and you are acting as if your class is made [Removed for Content] because 2 out of all the current raid encounters you felt unneeded. And you are 'hoping' they don't make em all like the Matron.For your sake, I hope they make every EoF raid just like the Corsolander. Then maybe you'll be happy because then all melee classes would be screwed. I can just see your post now:'Yarr - me backstabs not be working! Avast ye matey, this encounter is the suxor, nerf Rangers!!'<hr></blockquote> Exactly. Two encounters you can't own oh, OM MY GOD THE END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH!  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It's especially hillarious given that swashies can still do just fine on both, they just don't absolutely rock the boat on.  It's not a valid argument that your class gets the shaft on these, and it's not even close to valid to cry nerf based on the assumption of future raids.  DoF raid mechanics were quite a bit different to the original t5 raids.  KoS mechanics were quite different to DoF.  Both little adventure packs tended to take after their base teir, but even then, were quite different. I'm sure there are enough actual problems to complain about here, before we start on future ones.  <span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

[Scort]

The arguments are as valid as enchanter's arguements. Just as valid as Ranger's arguments. Just as valid as SK's arguments, etc.Point is, Brigands can still do their job 100% of the time on every encounter.It's not about maintaining our DPS, it's about not being able to do what we were designed to do, because of mechanics. Just like it was about enchanters not being able to do their job because of mechanics.

[KillSlow]

<DIV>not the same chanters couldn't do anything but power drian and dps, nothing special</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you can still do everything as normal just have to take a break every 30s or so</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[Removed for Content] every encounter in the game i can't DPS 2k on ok</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do you play a class if you hate it so much???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do you think your job is?</DIV><p>Message Edited by KillSlow on <span class=date_text>09-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:40 PM</span>

[Gaellen]

<blockquote><hr>Point is, Brigands can still do their job 100% of the time on every encounter.<hr></blockquote> Oh my god.  So do TANKS!  Nerf tanks!!  Swashies (and most classes) have a ton of things that balance the fact that they cannot dodge AEs.  You win some, you lose some.   They could just take away absolutely every single thing you have that makes you better than a Brigand, and give you AE avoidance.  Or, you could just make a brigand.  <div></div>

[Petgroup]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:Point is, Brigands can still do their job 100% of the time on every encounter.<hr></blockquote>Incorrect.And just when you thought only the Corsalander made them human, I present you with .................. The Djinn Master <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></div>

[Duster_68]

Well,  I sure glad that's all sorted out now. <span>:smileyindifferent:</span>

[KillSlow]

<DIV>I have had enough of this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>healers are over powered</DIV> <DIV>they can heal no matter what</DIV> <DIV>they can cure stun, even on themselves</DIV> <DIV>rez themselves</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is insane nerf all healers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>too over powered they have best buffs and some of the best debuffs</DIV> <DIV>OMG unfair</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>note 70 Defiler here</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know what my job is do you, or are you wanting to be a hero and have a shinny top of every parse trophy</DIV>

[Jounar]

<blockquote><hr>Gaellen wrote:<blockquote><hr>Point is, Brigands can still do their job 100% of the time on every encounter.<hr></blockquote>Oh my god.  So do TANKS!  Nerf tanks!!  Swashies (and most classes) have a ton of things that balance the factthat they cannot dodge AEs.  You win some, you losesome.   They could just take away absolutely every singlething you have that makes you better than a Brigand, and give you AEavoidance.  Or, you could just make a brigand.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>What exactly do Brigs give up to be the most needed class in any raid? Lets see what those poor Brigs have to give up shall we....DPS? Nope they do T1 damage on most encounters if played correctly.Utility? Nope they have so many debuffs they are a must have on any serious raid.Abilities? Nope they have the best ability of any DPS class in the game. There is no way any one class in this game should contain so many bonus's without having any negitives.Yeah Brigs have it tough.

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jounar wrote:<blockquote><hr>Gaellen wrote:<blockquote><hr>Point is, Brigands can still do their job 100% of the time on every encounter.<hr></blockquote>Oh my god.  So do TANKS!  Nerf tanks!!  Swashies (and most classes) have a ton of things that balance the factthat they cannot dodge AEs.  You win some, you losesome.   They could just take away absolutely every singlething you have that makes you better than a Brigand, and give you AEavoidance.  Or, you could just make a brigand.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>What exactly do Brigs give up to be the most needed class in any raid? Lets see what those poor Brigs have to give up shall we....DPS? Nope they do T1 damage on most encounters if played correctly.Utility? Nope they have so many debuffs they are a must have on any serious raid.Abilities? Nope they have the best ability of any DPS class in the game. There is no way any one class in this game should contain so many bonus's without having any negitives.Yeah Brigs have it tough.<hr></blockquote>Increased hate gain</div>

[Jounar]

So have Rangers, Wizzys and Warlocks among many others tho i bet they would be happy to have all the goodies that Brigs have to go along with there's.<p>Message Edited by Jounar on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:03 AM</span>

[Dakkon_10]

Swashes have increased hate gain also... It's called spurious bravado. I know what you're gonna say, ''swashies have hate xfer!'' Lol big deal. When you're forced to go ranged for half the fight there is no way you are gonna pull aggro unless the tank dies.Please come up with a better argument than ''Omgz nerf this nerf that nerf everyone!'' or ''Some classes excel on certain encounters while others fall behind'' because A. Nobody is asking for a nerf, no matter what your paranoid beliefs are (read before posting) B. Some classes do better than others on certain encounters, yes, but never should they be unable to do their job. I don't see any examples of named raid encounters where a swash would be a better choice than a brigand, because on every encounter a brigand can't do thier job, neither can a swash.I'm not gonna say casters never have to worry about AoEs, because there are certain ones they do. But for them it is a matter of taking 5 steps back, where we need to run from 2ft away from the mob to 35ft away, then back again. Assassins and Rangers have this problem to, only their CA's are mostly long recasts, and they have ranged abilities to do while running in and out of the casting range.I could just sit out of AE range and use my uber leet Hail of Steel, doing a sweet 400 dps and contributing 0 buffs/debuffs, but I find that to be not too much fun or necessary for the raid...Every time SOE adds another unmitigatable AoE, Swashes die a little inside. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Scort]

Exactly, tell me what Brigands have to give up?As far as corsolander, that's NOT because it's from an AOE, that's a damage shield, DUHHate? 3 wordsGrandmaster Ignorant BlissWe have added hate gain on several of our skills. Hail of Steel (10%<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (which is used in ranged fights), Spurious Bravado (5%<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, devious blade (30%<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Brigands no worst off than we are in the hate dept. If you can't manage hate with the aids that are available, well...I never said I hated my class either. I said I hate the direction SOE is going with encounters because AOEs is all they know on how to make encounters difficult and then they add in ones that can't be mitigated. What's EOF gonna be, 6 aoes?<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:25 PM</span><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:33 PM</span>

[Crychtonn]

<P>Scortch with the above post you have just proven you are a failure as a swashbuckler.  You should really just run away from this thread and learn how swashbuckler skills work before returning.  I'm sure some nice person will point out your error in understanding how skills work.  I'll leave it to them and / or give you the challange of learning it on your own.</P> <P> </P>

[Hiro]

mental breach? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] are you talking about <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />if you're owning brigands your's suck, i only lose to swashes in lyceum......amazing reflexes makes some things too trivial when 3-5 brigands are used.nerf it down to a temp buff.-random dissolution brigand <div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:Exactly, tell me what Brigands have to give up?As far as corsolander, that's NOT because it's from an AOE, that's a damage shield, DUHHate? 3 wordsGrandmaster Mental BreechWe have added hate gain on several of our skills. Hail of Steel (10%<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (which is used in ranged fights), Spurious Bravado (66%<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, devious blade (30%<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Bravado and devious we use all through the fight so we have 96% hate gain and 27% to transfer (at master1)Brigands no worst off than we are in the hate dept. If you can't manage hate with the aids that are available, well...I never said I hated my class either. I said I hate the direction SOE is going with encounters because AOEs is all they know on how to make encounters difficult and then they add in ones that can't be mitigated. What's EOF gonna be, 6 aoes?<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>09-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:01 PM</span><hr></blockquote>If you are a Swashie, you suck at life. Because uhm, HELLO, Bravado is only 5% hate gain. Hail of Steel is 10% while it's up, which means you aren't using anything else so it's not even a big deal. And then Devious Blade, are you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on how "Blame" works? It works in the fact that when the mob hits its next target, they get the extra 30% hate.Anyway, Mental Breach is Power issues. Now Ignorant Bliss, those are the de-taunt poisons. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing [Removed for Content].

[Iseabeil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillSlow wrote:<BR> <DIV>not the same chanters couldn't do anything but power drian and dps, nothing special</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you can still do everything as normal just have to take a break every 30s or so</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[Removed for Content] every encounter in the game i can't DPS 2k on ok</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do you play a class if you hate it so much???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>What do you think your job is?</STRONG></DIV> <P>Message Edited by KillSlow on <SPAN class=date_text>09-27-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:40 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have two single target melee attacks that does *not* have a debuff of some sort attached to it, one of wich is a sneak attack wich all scouts have some version of and the other is a simple double attack. All other non AE or ranged attacks has a debuff of some sort of debuff attached, ranging from mitigation debuff, int, dps, agi etc. Then add other debuffs, both our own non dps based and the ones we share with brigands from AA's and I would say that debuffing is our intended job just as much as dps is, and wether our debuffs are as good or valuable as a brigands isnt really a part of that equation (it is its own subject). When devs remade swashies from bein naggy-run invisers to being a valuable class, they made us into a heavily debuff oriented class.</P> <P>As for wether its valid to be concered about where the game is going in advance... Id rather there be noise about it now then there being noise because its too late. If this turns out to be a no-issue then great, but if no one raises their voice, how do we let the devs know this is a big potential issue to some? Amongst all the whine about every possible subject thats already going on here on forums, Id hardly say our subject is the most controversial.</P> <P> </P>

[AlbinoLou]

<div></div>If all anyone was trying to do was voice concern about the direction encounters were going, then why is another class even brought up??  Wouldn't a thread title like "Multi-AE encounters hurting many melee DPS classes" have been more appropriate?  Everything from the title on screams class jealousy.  2 encounters in 1 adventure pack are hardly indicative of anything.  Take a deep breath and wait until November to complain.If brigands give up nothing to have AE avoidance why do they get outparsed by Assasins and do equivalent damage to a swash even on mobs with AE's?  And at the same time are far more likely to draw the mob's ire.  The hate transfer Swashies have beats the gimped deaggro proc that brigands have by a mile.  And why the heck were poison's brought up at all?  Both rogue classes can use Ignorant Bliss so that balances out.  And Mental Breach has absolutely nothing to do with anything.Oh well, take away Amazing reflexes.......I'll just use all of my crazy ranged skills!!!!  And who knows, maybe it's Corsolander who's the model for EoF raid encounters.  Then all rogues would suck equally.<div></div><p>Message Edited by AlbinoLou on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:45 AM</span>

[KillSlow]

<P>every class has built in debuffs in there attacks</P> <P>I have lost what the arguement was...</P> <P>Every class if played well and can do what ever, I have seen sk's make top of parses could he tank not really but he could DPS and had insane power</P> <P>90% of the brigs in the world can't make top of the parse, without pulling agro on most encounters</P> <P>I play a defiler brig and a swash, i don't want the swash and the brig to be the same thing</P> <P>I dont think AR would be any good on a timer, it would just be the suck, immune for 5s every 60s lol</P> <P>what is funny is that i always thought what made brigs over powered was the fact they have 2 mit buffs that add about 1k mit, making them almost monk/bru worthy tanks 5k mit on a scout in non-fabled gear is pretty uber with a 60+ avoidance solo got to love claymore rewards</P>

[Aandien]

<DIV>why can't you joust on an encounter with 2aes?  especially when one of the ae's is twice the duration of the other....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You should fire whoever does your ae timers and hire someone who can actually call out ae's better if your unable to joust effectively on cheldrak or matron.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or just download ACT yourself and then you can just ignore whoever calls your AE's and you'll likely end up making better decisions yourself and be able to stay in longer.</DIV>

[Gaellen]

Brigands are a must on any raid? You can't raid without brigands? ... pass the pipe!  Brigands are cool, yes.  Brigands help, yes.  Are brigands essential for everything?  Uh, no?  90% of the raid content in the game can be beaten without one, trust me.  <div></div>

[Bjerde]

<div><blockquote><hr>KillSlow wrote:<div></div> <p>every class has built in debuffs in there attacks</p><hr></blockquote>I don't have debuffs with my attacks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and yeah, brigs can do alright tanking in xp groups.</div>

[Scort]

<blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<P>Scortch with the above post you have just proven you are a failure as a swashbuckler.  You should really just run away from this thread and learn how swashbuckler skills work before returning.  I'm sure some nice person will point out your error in understanding how skills work.  I'll leave it to them and / or give you the challange of learning it on your own.</P><P> </P><hr></blockquote>You have absolutely zero clue to my skill and you make stupid assumptions that make you look stupid. I know exactly how my skills work. I have been a swashbuckler since day one, when most people like you were probably playing other classes and probably jumped on that swashbuckler (after I worked my butt off in DoF beta with the developers to get swashbucklers to be worth something) bandwagon after realizing how much better they were then.When you have a clue as to what you are talking about and actually raid with me, then you will have a right to make a comment as to my skills. Until then, it might be a good idea to stay quiet as it shows how clueless and childish you are.So frillin what if I made a few typos in the post about hate% and poison. I was trying to type this in the middle of raids and looked at the wrong lines. Big frillin deal. You have the nerve to call me a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing [Removed for Content]? roflmao, time to look in the mirror if you want to call people morons because they made a mistake in their post.Pinski, you have zero room to talk. You don't belong in the discussion as you are one of those Illusionist that whined like a little baby about being useless in raids. That you were nothing but a mana battery and so on. So, don't come here in a thread about swashbucklers and raids dissing other people when you have no clue. You must suck at life as an illusionist since you needed all those changes that the dev team made.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>09-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:47 PM</span>

[KillSlow]

<P>OMG i was wrong</P> <P>Templars get a debuff but there spells dont</P> <P>I would edit post but i will stay a noob</P> <P>lol</P> <P>how about most classes get attacks the have built in debuffs</P>

[Petgroup]

Funny how people just skipped over my Djinn Master comment. The guy that completely ignores the Dps tiers. If mobs like him are in EoF, Amazing Reflexes is [Removed for Content].<div></div>

[KillSlow]

<P>There is a reason people skipped it</P> <P> </P> <P>How many people do you think have killed him?</P> <P>lol</P> <P> </P> <P>AR is not what makes a brig uber, and if they take it away i say give brigs another debuff <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Scort]

Debuffs and AR is what defines a brigand. They have a god skill and you say it doesn't make them uber on raids?I don't think anyone here has called for it to be removed. One or two may have mentioned it being nerfed but I don't want it nerfed. What good would that do the guild on raids if it's nerfed?

[slyfer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KillSlow wrote:<BR> <P>There is a reason people skipped it</P> <P> </P> <P>How many people do you think have killed him?</P> <P>lol</P> <P> </P> <P>AR is not what makes a brig uber, and if they take it away i say give brigs another debuff <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The same people who can Kill the Matron.  Which is where the OP topic started.  </P> <P>You can kill almost any mob without a Brigand except 2 I think.</P> <P>I agree with most everything nikecmh42.  But I guess I don't count because I have  Brigand.</P>

[yac]

<hr size="2" width="100%"><div></div>If all anyone was trying to do was voice concern about the direction encounters were going, then why is another class even brought up??  Wouldn't a thread title like "Multi-AE encounters hurting many melee DPS classes" have been more appropriate?  Everything from the title on screams class jealousy.  2 encounters in 1 adventure pack are hardly indicative of anything.  Take a deep breath and wait until November to complain.<hr size="2" width="100%">Exactly.  As someone who plays numerous classes across the game, it sickens me to no ends when people call out for a class to be nerfed in some form because they can do something another class can't.  People get jealous of Wizards; nerf Wizards.  People get jealous of Guardians; nerf Guardians.  Rangers, Summoners, etc.....for once instead of jumping all over another class, why not keep the broken issues with classes at the forefront with reasonable, logical arguments as to why this needs to be fixed.  So Brigs get AR.  Big deal.  Its not a game breaking feature.  It comes with an extra hate gain as well so Brigs have to be careful when throwing out their debuffs.  At the rate taunts are being resisted by T7 raid mobs, having AR doesn't make life for Brigs any easier. I also agree that two encounters is not indicative of how EoF is going to turn out, raid-wise.  Sure, they could always copy the encounters over but I'm willing to bet that it's going to be something new to deal with. <hr size="2" width="100%">If brigands give up nothing to have AE avoidance why do they get outparsed by Assasins and do equivalent damage to a swash even on mobs with AE's?  And at the same time are far more likely to draw the mob's ire.  The hate transfer Swashies have beats the gimped deaggro proc that brigands have by a mile.  And why the heck were poison's brought up at all?  Both rogue classes can use Ignorant Bliss so that balances out.  And Mental Breach has absolutely nothing to do with anything.<hr size="2" width="100%">I've come to rely on my deaggro poison in raids just to make sure that I'm not taking hate off the tank when the rest of the raid is having to joust AoEs.  Even then, I still have to be on the ball with what I'm doing.  I can't go debuff crazy or else I end up a dead rat.As far as being outparsed by Assassins, Wizards, Warlocks, etc. I could care less about the parse.  I'm there to debuff the mob and keep him in a weakened state as much as possible so that we can beat the encounter.  The only time I care about the parse is when I should happen to beat out a class I shouldn't.  That tells me two things: that person was taking it easy or I need to back off some on the next encounter.<hr size="2" width="100%">Oh well, take away Amazing reflexes.......I'll just use all of my crazy ranged skills!!!!  And who knows, maybe it's Corsolander who's the model for EoF raid encounters.  Then all rogues would suck equally. <hr size="2" width="100%">If I was a dev, that's the model I'd follow there.  Make the damage shield a mana drain shield for each spell/meele/CA that hits or something like that.  Then everyone can feel useless against the encounter and some of this unnecessary jealousy can subside some.

[Krontak]

<DIV>I almost forgot what this post was about.  anyways....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ops right, these new designs are totally gimping the neccesity of the swashbucklers playstyle.  With that last expansion pack, the aoe mechanics turned for the worse imho and tipped the scale in favor of brigand mechanics unfortunatly.  Maybe this was just some sort of experiment to change things up a bit since aoe mechanics where pretty predictable for the most part...bring x amount of resist gear and you can survive the aoe and just heal thru it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe instead of the route they chose for fallen dynasty they could "up" the amount of resist needed and actually make it difficult to reach that amount unless you A. Gimped yourself to hell or B. Aquired some of the best resist gear out there that doesn't totally [Removed for Content] you.  But then of course, there would be ALOT of thought that would have to go into programming encounters while taking into account what kinds of resists players out there can achieve, which would take a heck of a lot of coordination and sharing of information across the board.  It could be done but, they'd really have to get organized.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least there is some stuff in game to help you at least fire off all your debuffs before you get stunned by aoes, the potion, the aoe prevention signet and a dirge if your fortunate enough, after that,  its jouste time unfortunatly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do hope they got over their experimentation stage and got all this out of their system with Fallen Dynasty.  I guess we'll be finding out shortly.  I wouldn't count swashbucklers out just yet though.</DIV>   :smileywink:

[khufure]

How will it help to turn brigands into rangers?  That's what you guys are doing with this post.<div></div>

[Petgroup]

<div><blockquote><hr>khufure wrote:How will it help to turn brigands into rangers?  That's what you guys are doing with this post.<div></div><hr></blockquote>People are gonna have a field day with this one.Now this thread is gonna hit 10 pages long <span>:smileysad:</span></div>

[Scort]

Poor rangersAgain, we are not asking that brigands get nerfed. That will help no one.

[Dakkon_10]

Swashbucklers are rangers. At least that is what the dev who designed those raid encounters believes.

[Krontak]

Too funny.  An hour and a half after my post a few posts up they announced they are going to up the cap on resists.  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I'm good.  :smileywink:

[Scort]

<P>Well, looks like the OP and a lot of our fears came true. A lot of the raid mobs in EoF have copy and pasted matron abilities. Massive AOEs, power drain aoe and porting.</P> <P>What is it about SOE copy and pasting abilities to tons of mobs. Why can't they be original in each encounter?</P>

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:<div></div> <p>Well, looks like the OP and a lot of our fears came true. A lot of the raid mobs in EoF have copy and pasted matron abilities. Massive AOEs, power drain aoe and porting.</p> <p>What is it about SOE copy and pasting abilities to tons of mobs. Why can't they be original in each encounter?</p><hr></blockquote>Matron has nothing new.....  All of those abilities are present in T6 mobs, and I am guessing in T5 as well(never raided T5).</div>

[Zagats]

<DIV>Well, all the whiners got their wish.  Amazing reflexes has now been hugely nerfed, and is now unreliable, and might as well be non existent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is true that an easy button is not a good thing, but would it have been considered an easy button if it were useable for 20 seconds at a time, 1 min recast, with the lost reflexes part left on?</DIV> <DIV>They could have decreased the duration of it, instead they just made it a proc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did I mention - thanks for complaining.   Now entire raid dps for any raids with brigands will go down due to debuffs not being there 100% of the time, as was our primary purpose anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think someone mentioned it earlier, but Swashy dps = brigand dps, w/ amazing reflexes in.</DIV> <DIV>Take out AR, and Swashy dps > rogue dps....something for the brigands to complain about and ask for nerf for swashys?  Lets do!</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>FlintAH wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:<div></div> <p>Well, looks like the OP and a lot of our fears came true. A lot of the raid mobs in EoF have copy and pasted matron abilities. Massive AOEs, power drain aoe and porting.</p> <p>What is it about SOE copy and pasting abilities to tons of mobs. Why can't they be original in each encounter?</p><hr></blockquote>Matron has nothing new.....  All of those abilities are present in T6 mobs, and I am guessing in T5 as well(never raided T5).</div><hr></blockquote>T5 was Wrath of Fury - copy / paste - boom, new contested WOO HOO!T6 brought about some power drains, 1 epic which ported (Black Queen), Orange Mobs as the challenge (due to mechanic changes with orange mobs), and mem wipes up the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].Matron is really the only mob with all the abilities on one encounter.....and it seems like the majority of EoF Content is based on that.Making all encounters in KoS as hard or harder then Matron though would be a funny [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] way of progression....</div>

[Scort]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FlintAH wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Scortch wrote:<BR> <P>Well, looks like the OP and a lot of our fears came true. A lot of the raid mobs in EoF have copy and pasted matron abilities. Massive AOEs, power drain aoe and porting.</P> <P>What is it about SOE copy and pasting abilities to tons of mobs. Why can't they be original in each encounter?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Matron has nothing new.....  All of those abilities are present in T6 mobs, and I am guessing in T5 as well(never raided T5).<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>T5 was Wrath of Fury - copy / paste - boom, new contested WOO HOO!<BR>T6 brought about some power drains, 1 epic which ported (Black Queen), Orange Mobs as the challenge (due to mechanic changes with orange mobs), and mem wipes up the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<BR><BR>Matron is really the only mob with all the abilities on one encounter.....and it seems like the majority of EoF Content is based on that.<BR><BR>Making all encounters in KoS as hard or harder then Matron though would be a funny [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] way of progression....<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Exactly. While they may have been some of Matron's abilities here and there in other tiers, not all are and the fact that she has most of all the abilities combined along with her adds is something new and is now being copy and pasted to EoF. That's what I was speaking of and MeridianR got it right.</P> <P>I agree that they totally shafted Brigands and went WAY overboard on the nerf. No one ever wanted this sort of nerf but, the way it was, was too much. Once again, SOE takes things to the opposite extreme. They can never do things in moderation. They have to either have too much or too little.</P> <P>I think SOE really believes that it's better to do a HUGE nerf to the extreme and then give back some of the ability so that players will thank them for doing the right thing. This psychology they have does nothing but [Removed for Content] off people and causes them to leave. They need to stop going from one extreme to the other.</P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Exactly. While they may have been some of Matron's abilities here and there in other tiers, not all are and the fact that she has most of all the abilities combined along with her adds is something new and is now being copy and pasted to EoF. That's what I was speaking of and MeridianR got it right.</P> <P>I agree that they totally shafted Brigands and went WAY overboard on the nerf. No one ever wanted this sort of nerf but, the way it was, was too much. Once again, SOE takes things to the opposite extreme. They can never do things in moderation. They have to either have too much or too little.</P> <P>I think SOE really believes that it's better to do a HUGE nerf to the extreme and then give back some of the ability so that players will thank them for doing the right thing. This psychology they have does nothing but [Removed for Content] off people and causes them to leave. They need to stop going from one extreme to the other.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yup and i would like to point out that the OPs first post says how he loves being number 1 dps welllllllll all your biatching and complaining about 2 enounters has now meant that YOU WONT be number 1 dps anymore good luck hitting ID with no dispatch on the mob and watch the mages blast your dps to peaces.  Well done brigs are now the new rangers ... happy now ? </P> <P>now lets work on somthing more constructive like getting Hurricane Nurfed oh wait no maybe by giving us ID and you can have our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty AR ? </P> <P>no ? really ? didnt think so !</P> <P><BR> </P>

[DaLurk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ganelonn wrote:<div></div><snip> (Brigand Word Count : 14 Occurences)<hr></blockquote>Brigand AR fixed now. Enjoy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well I for one am not happy about brigand dps.  Swashbucklers and Brigands both have debuffs.  Why the big disparity in our dps?  Brigands are more single target oriented and swashbucklers are more aoe oriented.  I don't think swashbucklers should be able to equal us in single target but beat us in aoe fights.</P> <P>I think they should do something to fix the situation.  Boost up brigand single target dps.  Either that or nurf swashbuckler dps, because after all, swashbuckler is our sister class and we should be doing about even dps through a zone.</P>

[Scort]

After they nerfed the crap out of hurricane, I don't see how you get that we are AOE oriented. We are no more AOE oriented than brigands are.

[Ballads]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>FlintAH wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:<div></div> <p>Well, looks like the OP and a lot of our fears came true. A lot of the raid mobs in EoF have copy and pasted matron abilities. Massive AOEs, power drain aoe and porting.</p> <p>What is it about SOE copy and pasting abilities to tons of mobs. Why can't they be original in each encounter?</p><hr></blockquote>Matron has nothing new.....  All of those abilities are present in T6 mobs, and I am guessing in T5 as well(never raided T5).</div><hr></blockquote>No, i beleive tfd was the first 2 encounters to use to distance proportional AE's. Now chels is kinda bleh simply farther away less damage ,but matrons definitly adds an interesting twist to the encounter where you are forced to take as much damage as you can live through to avoid a heavy power drain. I do see this them useing this to much now as any child will do with a new toy. The yellow matron in EH is a good example (mistress of the veil i thinks) Same mob, less adds, and with call of storms added for flavor wee what fun.</div><p>Message Edited by pickle27 on <span class=date_text>11-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:13 PM</span>

[Thepiper]

I agree swashy's are doing far to much Dps compared to Brigands they need nerfing or Brig's need an increase.  There Debuffs are just as usefull as our's there AOE damage is far to overpowrered Nerf the shawshy. 

[Scort]

<P>If you think our AOE damage is overpowered, you really have no clue. Might want to get actual facts before making those statements.</P> <P>Brigands are jsut [Removed for Content] because they got their god skill, their easy mode, nerfed. I agree it went too far but it did need fixing.</P><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>11-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:16 PM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

I'm just talking straight dps number, not opinion.  Swashies in a zone like Lycaeum outdps brigands by a lot.  As a brigand I hit 1500 dps zonewide as a high.  Swashies can hit 1900 dps.  400 dps is too much considering swashies are supposed to be our sister class.  We need balance between the 2 classes dpswise.  How about raising the dps of brigands back to before it got nurfed, or nurf swashbucklers because there shouldn't be a dps difference between the 2 classes.

[Scort]

Well, now that Brigands don't have a god skill, maybe it is time to boost their DPS. You know how it goes though, they will nerf us to fix you all.<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class=date_text>11-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:05 PM</span>

[Manyak]

its ironic now....that swashys got the reach line, while brigands got a proc thats really unreliable.<p>Message Edited by DaMutation on <span class=date_text>11-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:16 PM</span>

[MeridianR]

I think people base all Swashie AE dps on Hurricane and  Inspiration....with that being said...Swashies are doing a ton more dps then Brigs right now, and that should be looked at.  Just because Brigs had god mode for a while with AR, doesn't mean they should go back to pre AR mode....Yes Brig debuffs are still killer, but with AR being balanced into what it has become, Brigs should have some sort of dps boost to come more in line with Swashies.<div></div>

[Facedown]

<div><blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div>I'm just talking straight dps number, not opinion.  Swashies in a zone like Lycaeum outdps brigands by a lot.  As a brigand I hit 1500 dps zonewide as a high.  Swashies can hit 1900 dps.  400 dps is too much considering swashies are supposed to be our sister class.  We need balance between the 2 classes dpswise.  How about raising the dps of brigands back to before it got nurfed, or nurf swashbucklers because there shouldn't be a dps difference between the 2 classes.<hr></blockquote>Youre complaining because a swash can out zone parse you in ONE zone? Big deal, a swashbuckler will out dps me as an assassin in lyceum - simply because he has the better aoe's. A warlock will utterly destroy a wizard in this zone but I dont see them saying wizards need a dps boost to be on par with warlocks or warlocks need to be nerfed to be on par with they 'sister' class. A ranger can out parse my assassin in this zone, you dont see us complaining they need to be nerfed or we need boost. All the damage is situational.A brigand and a swashbuckler are on par dps, try merging a parse of 5-6 zones and see how close you are then. Just because they can out dps you in one zone doesnt make them overpowered and need nerfing.</div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>That's not true at all.  Wizards and warlocks are about even in Lycaeum.  I don't know what you're talking about.</P> <P>Plus assassins can hit 1900 dps in lycaeum.  Swashies almost as much.</P> <P>Brigands for the most part parse even or lower through all zones.  Name me a zone where a brigand outdpses a swashbuckler.... just one.  Labs, nope.  Lycaeum, nope.  DT, nope.  Hos, nope.  Cheldrak, not anymore.  Contesteds, not anymore.  It's unbalanced.</P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> <P>That's not true at all.  Wizards and warlocks are about even in Lycaeum.  I don't know what you're talking about.</P> <P>Plus assassins can hit 1900 dps in lycaeum.  Swashies almost as much.</P> <P>Brigands for the most part parse even or lower through all zones.  Name me a zone where a brigand outdpses a swashbuckler.... just one.  Labs, nope.  Lycaeum, nope.  DT, nope.  Hos, nope.  Cheldrak, not anymore.  Contesteds, not anymore.  It's unbalanced.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yup and now this is where the swashies start to worry ... clever isnt it how it works you cry to get ar nurfed but now when its a swashies dps that will be nurfed to balance the 2 classes you start crying ? oh the irony of it all huh ?</P> <P>i look forward to swashie getting a dps nurf i really do cos then i can really sit back an laugh at them crying over somthing THEY caused by getting AR [Removed for Content]'d  ..</P> <P> </P>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well it would be sort of funny.  They wanted AR nurfed because they didn't have it.  Now the only thing that separates us is the kind of our debuffs and dps.  Swashies have more dps and aoe attacks and they debuff defensively.  We debuff offensively and do less damage.  </P> <P>If swashies want us to be the same class and have us not have something they don't have, it should work both ways.  Even out dps.</P>

[Scort]

No, people wanted AR changed because it was a god skill. It would be like giving Assassins an assassinate skill that could take out named in one shot.