Gorenaire bugged ?

[theriatis]

<DIV>Hi,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>simple Question, is Gorenaire bugged ? Or was it just changed without notice ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We normally have no Problem with her (not that it's an easy kill, but we manage it) </DIV> <DIV>but yesterday Gorenaire completely wiped the floor with us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>She ported like hell (we had 5 Tanks) sometimes with less than 5 seconds between</DIV> <DIV>the ports, spawning Adds like there was no tomorrow (and no, we had no Pets), DPS</DIV> <DIV>did completely break down after 50% with no apparent reason (reading the Logs), she</DIV> <DIV>seemed to heal herself like crazy and the best try was down to 30% after the 6th.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, did anybody else notice that behavior ? Last week she was fine for us...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards, Theriatis.</DIV>

[Lint26]

My guild killed her for the first time last night (first attempt so no comparison available) but we didn't suffer from any of the above effects you described there.  This was on the Runnyeye server.

[MexStrat]

Interesting, very interesting.   Our guild also killed gorenaire, for the first time in a really long time.   We did not notice an extraordinary ammount of porting.  If you being ported that often.  There may have been issues, but i can honestly say it is not a world wide bug.<div></div>

[Feltrak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> theriatis wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hi,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>simple Question, is Gorenaire bugged ? Or was it just changed without notice ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We normally have no Problem with her (not that it's an easy kill, but we manage it) </DIV> <DIV>but yesterday Gorenaire completely wiped the floor with us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>She ported like hell (we had 5 Tanks) sometimes with less than 5 seconds between</DIV> <DIV>the ports, spawning Adds like there was no tomorrow (and no, we had no Pets), DPS</DIV> <DIV>did completely break down after 50% with no apparent reason (reading the Logs), she</DIV> <DIV>seemed to heal herself like crazy and the best try was down to 30% after the 6th.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, did anybody else notice that behavior ? Last week she was fine for us...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards, Theriatis.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sounds like you got a bugged version. Also keep in mind one of her dragon's breath aoe's is a 100% reduction in DPS.

[Kraven Coldblade]

<P>Oh come on. How would you like to be a Dragon and get pwned by petty humans and elves and naughty gnomes with small meaty bones ??? Heck I know I wouldn't. I'm glad she got some revenge finally!</P>

[Illustrious]

<DIV>well we did this last week for the first time in a month or 2 to try and get some new members and general quest slackers updates for DT access. I beleive it has been tweaked slightly because this used to be the easiest by far of the 4 needed for access to DT, well if not by far then at least on a par with Harla. But we noticed a lot more adds this time round and a lot more teleports also, may have just been a bad run of luck but it certainly seemed harder than it used to.</DIV>

[theriatis]

<DIV>Hi,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>she didn't really get owned, it was always a fair fight :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everytime we visited her it was a friendly match till we brought her down</DIV> <DIV>to 1%, then she would stop to fight, give us her sign and some treasure and</DIV> <DIV>we were leaving happily, no harm done :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards, theriatis. (Valor).</DIV>

[NoNameChosen]

Killed Gorenaire last night, wasn't changed at all. Still normal memwhipe on teleport which is still on a (around) 45 second timer. I was even tanking it in offensive stance :o

[mikemcmodmi]

We noticed she was porting more too when we did her 2 weeks ago.  Doing her again tonight so I'll let ya know.

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>We tried Gorenaire last night and she gave us problems.  Teleport was going off a lot more often, like every 20 secs and we only had 3 tanks with us so couldn't do it.  The other weird thing was how hard he was hitting for cold damage.  Our tank took a 10606, 9375, 8951 and 7919 damage Icy Breath attack with 6k cold resists.  This is the ability that she uses every 5-6 seconds too.  Usually it would hit for 1k but then a big shot would come out of nowhere.  Definitely harder then when we tried her 2 weeks ago.</P> <P>I believe they took out spell crits on mobs so I thought that was a little weird.  That and with 3 tanks we wiped because we had periods where all of the tanks were teleported so we had no one left to tank the mob.</P><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class=date_text>09-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 PM</span>

[YourPIMP]

Killed him again last night and didn't notice this. Only bug I noticed was one the first pull I hex and got teleported immediately to very very top of zone (so high that you can see all black around and the graphics stop). When I noticed I moved a little to drop down being I'm a bruiser and could take the fall I thought. Then all of the sudden I fell through the world and respawned in a zone called same thing however it was really the AOAx2 layout LOL.After that I got COH and pulled and killed him.-Powershot<div></div>

[FightGame]

<P>2 guardians tanking, and casting their "plant" spell as often as possible, to avoid porting, along with 1 other tank and about 1 or 2 other dps to keep the adds down should work good.  We had the same issues with goneaire for 4 weeks before we tried the plant spell often, and this worked like a charm.</P> <P>Also, we found that the adds spawn from the frontal aoe, so don't have all your tanks in front...only the one with aggro at that time.</P>

[ReviloTX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FightGame wrote: <P>Also, we found that the adds spawn from the frontal aoe, so don't have all your tanks in front...only the one with aggro at that time.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm going to disagree with this, either that or it's somewhat buggy.  Reason:  We had a pet pull to eat the first teleport, and most tries it was fine he would spawn maybe 1 add.  However, on one pull he spawned the entire room full of adds and the pet was the only thing that got hit with the AE (if he even did the AE that pull).  I don't know what exactly caused the entire room to pop full of adds, but it wasn't the frontal AE.. at least not 1 per person.  On the next pull, it went fine however somewhere during the fight the entire room spawned full of adds again, and typically no more than 1 or 2 people were eating the frontal AE.</P> <P>As for the cold DD, it is quite nasty, however he doesn't do it every 5-6 seconds.  Your probably thinking of the frontal AE that is a dot, it has a similar name.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by ReviloTX on <span class=date_text>09-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:51 AM</span>

[fIRE2k]

<div></div><div></div>i can confirm that...... last week we want to dance with her and She was not happy about that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Ports are hell fast and also our monks came back to late for the next port ....The best was, i was ported up in the middle of 5 Adds <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Spawns from adds are all in the Room (mostly in the Circles on the Floor under the Top Place.......I hope she is cheerful today <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by fIRE2k on <span class=date_text>09-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:22 PM</span>

[Ralyssand]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ReviloTX wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FightGame wrote: <P>Also, we found that the adds spawn from the frontal aoe, so don't have all your tanks in front...only the one with aggro at that time.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm going to disagree with this, either that or it's somewhat buggy.  Reason:  We had a pet pull to eat the first teleport, and most tries it was fine he would spawn maybe 1 add.  However, on one pull he spawned the entire room full of adds and the pet was the only thing that got hit with the AE (if he even did the AE that pull).  I don't know what exactly caused the entire room to pop full of adds, but it wasn't the frontal AE.. at least not 1 per person.  On the next pull, it went fine however somewhere during the fight the entire room spawned full of adds again, and typically no more than 1 or 2 people were eating the frontal AE.</P> <P>As for the cold DD, it is quite nasty, however he doesn't do it every 5-6 seconds.  Your probably thinking of the frontal AE that is a dot, it has a similar name.<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by ReviloTX on <SPAN class=date_text>09-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:51 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>We experienced the exact same thing on the adds with a couple odd anomolies...every time we tried with the raid, we pet pulled with the above results (whole room spawned). Afterwards, 3 people hung around in the room to test stuff. Had a guardian with autoparry on engage, and only some mobs on the bottom spawned...then a necro (same necro who was pet pulling) pet pulled with only 2 other people in the zone (both on 3rd floor watching the topp floor spawns on the glass). This time when the pet died and then the necro, the entire bottom floor AND top floor (6 mobs up top) spawned. So yeah, basically same thing you experienced except maybe the spawning was slightly staggered<BR>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>We killed her/him last night.  It was slightly changed and you'll only notice a difference if you tried to kill her certain ways.</P> <P>We needed 4 tanks.  3 to try to hold her during teleports and one MA for the ice dervishes.  The teleport we found managible with traumatic swipe and I think we were unsuccessful the week before because we didn't have a brigand in the raid.</P> <P>The deal with the huge mob of ice dervishes on pull is the glass on the 2nd floor.  If someone touches the glass then a group of 6 will spawn.  It's important to stay off the glass.  The glass is also one of the spots a tank can get teleported to, but if the tank runs directly to the wall when you get teleported on the glass you can avoid them all and not pull them to the raid.</P>

[ReviloTX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> <P>The deal with the huge mob of ice dervishes on pull is the glass on the <FONT color=#cc0000>2nd floor</FONT>.  If someone touches the glass then a group of 6 will spawn.  It's important to stay off the glass.  The glass is also one of the spots a tank can get teleported to, but if the tank runs directly to the wall when you get teleported on the glass you can avoid them all and not pull them to the raid.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#993300>I'm assuming you mean the top floor, above where he spawns, since I don't recall seeing any "glass" on the actual 2nd floor.</FONT></P> <P>Nope, keep trying.. that's not it (unless it's buggy).  We killed him on the second floor (level where he spawns), nobody was even on the 3rd floor (very top, partial floor), and at least on one occasion with a pet pull the entire 2nd floor and 3rd floor filled with adds instantly.</P> <P>He is still killable, as we managed to win even with the adds up all over the place (takes a little luck of not having your MT's teleported into them).<BR></P>

[Ralyssand]

<DIV>We had 3 people in the zone. 2 people on the 2nd floor. One was a necro who pulled with a pet and pet and necro both died. Healer was on 2nd floor to rez him for testing and I was on 3rd floor, not on the glass. Full set of adds spawned on the 2nd and the 6 blizzards spawned on the glass on 3rd floor as well...pretty sure being on the glass doesn't have anythign to do with it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Leawyn]

Gorenaire is a girl dragon. I peeked. Otherwise, carry on, carry on.

[dacat]

We had no problems, killed her the other night as well.

[CodeKill]

<P>The conjecture is nice about the adds, but what strats did you use. We tried last night with our MT a zerker who revivals any Guardian with gear and taunts, 2 Monks, and 2 pally's and we wiped til we were naked. Is it better to pull here with a pet first, or send a scout class out to pull to MT?</P> <P>Any info would be appreciated.</P><p>Message Edited by CodeKiller on <span class=date_text>09-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:40 PM</span>

[TanRaistlyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CodeKiller wrote:<BR> <P>The conjecture is nice about the adds, but what strats did you use. We tried last night with our MT a zerker who revivals any Guardian with gear and taunts, 2 Monks, and 2 pally's and we wiped til we were naked. Is it better to pull here with a pet first, or send a scout class out to pull to MT?</P> <P>Any info would be appreciated.</P> <P>Message Edited by CodeKiller on <SPAN class=date_text>09-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:40 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Really easy encounter - pet pull to take initial port - mezzer mez's any adds that pop - all your tanks in raid fight for agro and burn burn burn her down with dps.  If a tank gets ported next one takes over - if tank ports into the epic adds just let him die and hopefully no reactives go off to agro those epics onto the raid.  If they do agro just wipe and do it again - with decent dps (12-13k) at least, the fight is like 1.5minutes and youll giggle at how easy it is, assuming no agro from the epic adds upstairs.

[CodeKill]

<P>Excellent thanks, we were using a gnome to pull, same thing as a pet, I guess not...hahahha</P> <P>Well try that strat..</P> <P> </P> <P>Megerin</P>

[FightGame]

As a very well equipped zerker that has tanked this many times and failed, I'll tell you that this is better done with guardian (even much less equipped) because of their "plant" spell.  When they are "planted" they don't get teleported.  Zerkers used to have a spell that rooted us, but the dev's decides to take the root part of the spell away from us a few LU's back.  We went in with 2 guards, and which ever one had aggro, would use this ability as often as possible, since all prior attempts resulted in me and the other tanks getting ported every 20 seconds or so.  Me and a healer and one dps kept atleast one set of adds dead on the second floor, so that no adds would spawn on the third floor, so that if a guard got ported up there, he wouldn't die from the adds.  If atleast one set is dead from second floor, they'll never spawn on the third floor.  Towards the end of the fight, both guards had been ported to third floor, so I had to move over and finish em off.<p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class=date_text>09-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:03 PM</span>

[CodeKill]

Does Gorenaire have the ability to heal herself. We had her down to 33% and then her HP spiked to 44%.

[FlintAH]

yes, all of the dragons do.<div></div>

[CodeKill]

OK thanks very much for the info gang.

[Aaers]

<P>We tried Gorenaire today.She teleportet us like hell ( all 3 tanks got ported in arround 20 seconds). Was wondering what was going on....</P> <P> </P> <P>Splitpaw server</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Baretta</P>

[Triste-Lune]

Killed Gorenaire yesterday. Used a gnome to pull too he riposted to her and let me took aggro easely. Didnt get hit for more than 3,5K hit. No adds spawned no heal and only 1 port when she was at like 30%. Took us about 1~2 min to kill her and 15 min get to her (debating wich one to spawn, heqd or tail i tell you).Died digilently and droped a bag, gratz to our overburden coercer on a brand new bag. Yep, you too can kill a "more or less" challenging dragon and get a 20 slot bag.

[CodeKill]

<P>Yeah it's disappointing to make the attempt to clear her and then all you get is one bag, 20 slot. Armour or jewelry with nice stats would be more worthy.  Seems that different servers are having easy times, and others like us can't seem to keep our feet planted long enough to even hit her. 1.2 mil hit points with 15K dps is doable, but we are having a heck of a time. One hit from her on some of our plate wearers were 9k.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[mastergat]

<DIV>try debuffing the mob <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[CodeKill]

ure that goes without saying. It is a X2 raid, and we are not newbie's, so I'm guessing the debuffs are coming out.

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>CodeKiller wrote:ure that goes without saying. It is a X2 raid, and we are not newbie's, so I'm guessing the debuffs are coming out.<hr></blockquote>Gorenaire is a x4 mob, in an x4 instance.

[Gargamel]

Just wanted to confirm the massive cold dmg.Went in the other week with tank at ~ 5800 mitigation and 7500 cold resists, and Icy Breath still hits for 9600-9800.  (g'[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if 10k is 20% dmg, that means she is actually doing 50,000hp dmg in one hit.  For a lvl 74 mob, Naggy but be envious <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )Need to make sure all of your tanks are buffed to 10k hp or higher or she'll one shot him and screw up your tank/port rotation.Casting time on it was varried.. once the big 'icy breath' hit came at 20s in, another as late as 1min10s.The only place I've seen with such a slim margin for error is the MoA4 trail warden where it all had to click to win... has she always been this way?  I thought she was supposed to be the easier of the two...<div></div>

[Raolador]

<div></div>Gorenaire died the same as she did the last few times. One difference though was that either her health has been significantly increased, or her healing phase at 50% has been strengthened. I've parsed her usually at around 1,2 but we ended up tonight doing about 2,9 over 3 minutes.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Raolador on <span class=date_text>09-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:56 AM</span>

[CodeKill]

<P>Where should the rest of the raid be standing, we had our tank pull her into an alcove, and we got under her belly and let her have it, everytime we got her to 33% we would wipe and have to start all over again. We tried standing off tot he side, max range, had crappy tanks that were scared, or not mastered. A guard not mastered is a nasty thing. ( Dual guild Raid on that try.)</P> <P>Any info would be greatly appreciated.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks</P>

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>CodeKiller wrote:<div></div> <p>, and we got under her belly and let her have it, </p><hr></blockquote>BAD</div>

[CodeKill]

Gees Bad could mean so many things. How about some constructive help, really.  Bad is sorta like telling people not to chew their toenails off with their teeth, imagine the fungus mouth you'd get?? hmmm

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>CodeKiller wrote:<div></div>Gees Bad could mean so many things. How about some constructive help, really.  Bad is sorta like telling people not to chew their toenails off with their teeth, imagine the fungus mouth you'd get?? hmmm<hr></blockquote>Unfortunately I cant give you too much info.  Just think about how that could be bad.</div>

[CodeKill]

Ah then it is true what they say about Pallies. ....:smileyvery-happy:

[Raolador]

I'm guessing he is implying that it's bad because you are in front of the mob when you are under her belly. The mob has a frontal claw rake/ae cone. Stay at the sides.<div></div>

[CodeKill]

<P>OK we have tried this raid so many times now, using different strats, it's rediculous. Th eother nite we went in and it was teleporting or guardian and zerker and pally tanks every 4-10 secs, we tried to have bruiser take aggro and have him ports at 4o sec mark and that wouldn't work either.  We are using 8 healers, 4 tanks and 12 dps, with no pets. at one point we were getting teleported 4 secs a tank with the guardian using plant master. Like [Removed for Content] do we need to do, to get by this [Removed for Content] dragon.</P> <P> </P> <P>Any useful info would be appreciated.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Xiza]

Using Plant does not keep you from being teleported.  What it does do is make you panic as you try and look for the Plant icon buff to cancel it so you can run back to the raid.  I've tried this many times on our Gore raids only to find it to not work.  We've killed her once and out of the 4 dragons needed for DT access, I dread this one the most.It becomes a crap shoot for us.  Either she ports a lot, or she doesn't port for a long time.  Then she either spawns adds or she doesn't.  Then you get lucky with where the tanks get ported--if the tank gets lucky and gets ported up top without adds on the glass, or he can get ported up there with adds up there.  Or he can just get ported around the second level were Gore spawns.  It's all luck for us.  <div></div>

[CodeKill]

Thanks for the update. We seem to be getting Gor on the nights he like to port people, cause it's nasty everytime for us.

[FightGame]

ya plant used to work, but not any more.  Most important thing to do in this fight is have 1 tank, 1 healer, and 1 dps to keep atleast 1 set of adds on the floor where gorenaire spawns, dead.  If they can keep atleast 1 set dead, then the adds won't spawn on the top floor, in the event that a tank gets ported up there.  And the min. 1 dps that is in this small group, should be the pet class(es) and out of AE range of gorenaire.

[CodeKill]

<P>What about the adds that pop on the blue glass floor up top as soon as you engage Gorenaire, that is one of the teleport spots. That's where we are or have been putting the adds grp. Nasty little buggers too.</P> <P>We can do the same down stairs when they pop, but we found that as soon as Gorenaire is pulled a grp of adds are popped ont he glass floor up top and when the tanks pops int he middle of them and they smoke him, the adsds drop down to where Gorenaire is and lay waste to the rest if the adds grp try to engage.</P> <P>If you wish to have a private chat please post to  me your thoughts on this. Thanks </P>

[FightGame]

<DIV>We've never had adds spawn immediately onto the glass.  We've done this several times, most previous 2 weeks ago.  Every time, the inital adds will spawn on middle floor, where gorenaire spawns.  The adds only spawned onto the top, glass floor, IF the middle floor was already full of them.  If they are initially spawning on the glass, then that is different than any way I've ever seen it.  In that case, yea, I guess you should just have your adds-group working up there.  If the adds-group is working up there, like you say, then how is your ported tank getting aggro?</DIV>

[denboj]

<DIV>We did her 2 times since the OP was made. First time was np and like it allways is. However yesterday was exactly like in the OP. What ws especially anoying was that allmost all ports went to third floor. We had 3 tanks on the first few attempts but moved on to usuing 4 wich still wasnt enough. We had 5 healers in the raid wich maybe sound abit low i dunno, we did it before a couple of times with only 5 unproblematically. Our raid dps on the pre clearing was like 15k or something like that wich by far should be enough to kill gore but still the dps completely stopped when he was 50 % or so. </DIV>

[FightGame]

<P>I think this mob may have a couple small heals.  But by 50%, maybe the initial debuffs you've placed on the mob were gone.  Keep debuffing throughout the fight.  Did you have a few people dedicated to killing adds?</P>

[CodeKill]

<P>What surprises me about the whole thing is, last night we walked into TOS after another guild failed and wiped Harla Dar, no deads except a couple of squishes,  but on a weaker dragon like Gorenaire we wipe everytime, mostly due to the tanks getting ported as long as 40 secs to as short as 4 secs between ports. Still looking for any help as to raid make up or a hint as to the strat to wiping this bugger. Thanks.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by CodeKiller on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:08 AM</span>

[Domiuk]

<DIV>Tyring to think of any advice to give you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We dropped her last night with 3 groups and quite a low dps setup,  first try.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although we did probably have 6 tanks, 4 plate , 2 squishy , i think its fair to say our 2 main tanks had agro 80% + of the whole fight despite being ported.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you get ported you jump back down (yes plate tanks too) , dieing if neccasary, get rezzed, rebuff , get back in the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A ported tank really should be back in the fight again within 20 secs or so even if killed by the drop.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Same rules as any epic fight keep the mob debuffed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[FightGame]

<P>and Gorenaire is tough.   I've been killing these dragons for a few months, and Gorenaire is tougher than Vyemm, Harla Dar, and Talendor.  Always has been to my knowledge.</P> <P> </P> <P>I'm not sure what to tell you.  People have been posting their strats for months.  I think if you are filling the place up with adds, immediately on the pull, you are pulling wrong.  We've had problems with the porting, and problems with the adds on people, but never have we filled the place up with adds on the pull.</P>

[CodeKill]

<DIV>What is the link for the posted strats for Gorenaire</DIV>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>CodeKiller wrote:<DIV>What is the link for the posted strats for Gorenaire</DIV><hr></blockquote>We killed her last week, with a full raid party.We fought her on the top level pulling her back to the wall with everyone then at here sides along the edges. We had three tanks fighting for aggro which kinda worked though the assasin tanked the last 15/20%.Try and debuff the crap into her, attack speed/dps etc.We made two main tank groups basically, 1 group with the MT and the other with 2 other plate tanks. We had all healers heal through the mob.We didnt see one add either, which was strange.It wasnt pretty or easy in my opinion but it worked. Good luck.

[Langaan]

<P>.</P><p>Message Edited by Langaan on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:34 PM</span>

[Antipalad]

Took her weekend before EoF launch, wimpy as usual, 2 tank jobbie.