Gear Check Raids.

[ChaosUndivided]

<DIV>EQ2 Has a distinct lack of gear progression in the High End Game. Generally most encounters can be defeated with Relic Armour farmed off trash mobs. Hopefully with EoF the Gap Between Relic and Top end Raid gear is increased to the point where Relic Armour doesn't cut it for the Harder Raid zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In WoW they have Tier'd Raid Zones. Each tier drops gear that is needed for the next zone. This progression is almost forced due to what I dub "Gear Check Mobs' and I think EQ2's raid game could benefit. Basically what I'm proposing is tier'd raid zones in difficulty.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Atm we have Labs, HoS, Lyceum and DT. And Except for a few mobs in some of the zones, if you can beat 1 zone you can clear the rest, in relatively the same gear. This kills progression.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I'm proposing is that for future raid zones to have mobs, that require a certain amount of DPS, Healing, Mitigation, HP's and Resists to beat. The Strats for these mobs do not have to be difficult they can be very simple in terms of strats but <EM>Mechanically </EM>these mobs should be incredibly hard requireing the top end gear from the previous tier to progress.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imagine something like PPR in Tier 6. Critinka was basically a gear check mob, Orange and Tough, If you didn't have the proper gear, healing etc you wouldn't really get far.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now let's take something like EoF which is coming up and Apply this concept to that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Let's assume 4 tier 7 Raid Zones in EoF.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our 1st Raid zone is The Easiest and Tuned in difficulty to the high end of KoS Gearing. That is, the mobs require basically the best gear obtainable from KoS (Contested notwithstanding, although contested gear is hardly the best). The 1st Mob in this zone could be orange and perhaps level 75 or 76, and hit incredibly hard, incredibly fast. Basically this mob has no tricks or gimmicks besides how mechanically hard the encounter is in terms of DPS output and Healing Required. They could also require this mob to be killed in a certain time limit to test a guilds DPS abilities. This mob would hit harder than anything found in KoS. This mob would be the guardian in the zone, at the entrance or perhaps a Mob needed for an access quest. Nonetheless the raid could not progress in this raid zone without killing this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next the rest of the zone is populated with similar mobs in ability, perhaps even slightly less, BUT the <EM>Complexity </EM>of these encounters would be along the likes of Chel'drak and 3 Princes, Basically Think Labs but with every mob requiring complex and technically demanding strats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fill this Zone with Tier 7.25 Raid Gear. Stuff Better than what can be found in KoS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Repeat this again for the Second Raid zone, however now tune the encounters to require gear from the Tier 1 EoF Raid zone. Again Complex and Technical Encounters are the key here with Gear Checking Mechanically Hard Encounters to ensure proper amounts of gearing have taken place. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Repeat Again for the Remaining Raid zones, with each one tuned harder and harder, requiring gear from the previous tier raid zone. Now Tune Contested mobs to require Gearing from the Top Tier Raid zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, their needs to be progression, and they need to introduce mobs that kick your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] so hard and basically tell you "Your not ready for this zone, keep gearing up and getting better"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Snarks]

<div></div>I completely agree there needs to be progression, and I really hope EoF addresses this issue. However, I disagree with how this must be obtained.The way 'orange' mobs work is in itself a roadblock to progression. If I understand the mechanics correctly, as soon as an epic mob goes from 74 to 75, linear difficulty be d<i>a</i>mned. Mitigation means much less, resists mean much less... to the point where the gap between relic mitigation and, well, higher mitigation is essentially meaningless. Where at level 74 mitigation can perhaps contribute more than debuffs, at 75 this drastically changes to where debuffs/hp buffs are paramount to mitigation. I truly feel that if the developers do not completely re-do current t7 fabled and reconstruct how mob scaling works (orange mobs = dumb), then tiered itemization and raids can be achieved. If the devs do not want to resort to this, which I <i>highly</i> doubt they will, I can only think of one other option. Item effects - Where a mob is infinitely harder without the assistance of some item-specific buff that drops off a lower tier raid zone. I think EoF could really take advantage of this with the planes, have each plane slightly harder than the other, and zone-specific drops allow you to access or beat content in the next plane. I'm far too tired to think of practical examples, but I hope you get the idea.I like your ideas and passion for the future of the game, but I just dont see level 67-68 mobs introducing the type of progression you want.<p>Message Edited by snarkteeth on <span class=date_text>08-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 PM</span>

[Wabit]

<P>i like alot of the things you say...  </P> <P>i just think t7 is too far gone unless they do a complete nerf of alot of gear...  our luck is horrid for good plate drops as it is...  i've tanked everything from KoS in basically complete relic (used CoP for tarinax)...  so far i've seen only 2 slots as an upgrade for relic (wrists and BP)...</P> <P>i don't like the PPR example, we got the juranata for months but couldn't beat her with out a random drop ([Removed for Content] ring)...</P> <P>but if this is what it takes for some sort of progression i'm for it...  just have to hope skill can compensate some for lack of gear...</P> <P>i'd also like to see these zones not be cleared the first time threw or even the second or fourth times...  and the end zone not being cleared till just about the time for the next expansion (like a month or 2 before)...</P>

[Thug]

<DIV>the issue i see with this is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in order for a guild like second dawn, disso. etc. to be challenged by a raiding zone it needs to be worthy of kicking everyone else for awhile. say zone 1 is challenging and takes sd 2-3 weeks to clear, then they need to farm in order to get ready for zone 2. how long should that take? a month? so a month later they are in zone 2. meanwhile maybe 1,2 guilds per server can match that sort of skill/challenge to be at their heels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>extrapoliate that out and most raiding guilds will have seen 1 new raid zone, maybe 2, 4 months in. that's alot of dev work for limited use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but i do think it's a good idea to have the progression. what about that concept combined with something like the Easy, Hard, Very Hard thing that was never actually done with PPR.</DIV> <DIV>something not so step but moves across the raid zones as such.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so that raid1 easy < raid 2 easy < raid 1 hard < raid 2 hard < raid 1 very hard < raid 3 easy  < raid 2 very hard < etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>gear and mob difficulty scales as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have no problem with the best gear coming from the highest zones, hardest levels, requiring farming from previous. i just don't want to spend 4 months in 1  new raid zone, cause we will never be as skilled as the top-end. gives us 4 new raid zone x3 scalings.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Devizi]

Thug I may have misinterpreted your post but, It seems to me like we'd be stepping backwards with the idea you presented.  For example, on any given raid day(mon-fri for SD) I'm running to whatever it is we may be raiding.  Now maybe its just me, but when I see 5 or 6 Shaman on the way in almost all Doomseer like myself....I tend to get really frustrated.  Why do I get frustrated? Because I know I spend more time/effort/dedication to this game and I have absolutely jack [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to show for it.  I'd like to have gear that says, "I'm number 1 and everyone knows it."  I may come off as one arrogant SOB but hey, so be it. Now obviously my rant is more along the lines of SOE allowing someone to do itemization that apparently knows [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  But, when you have these two major problems that coincide together, you're mixing a recipe for disaster.  Do you really think Sony can handle making three seperate difficulities for each specific zone and then on top of that properly itemize it?  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], they can't even do that with one difficulty per zone.  So pretty much I agree with Khalan on everything he's posted about.  If Guild A has to farm Zone 1 a month longer then Guild B, tough [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I'm not saying make it impossible for Guild A, just don't make it a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing cake walk like all of Tier 7 has been. p.s.  I'm writing this at 4 A.M. so its probably really scatter brained.  <span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

[HomeChicken]

<DIV>i personally would love to see a raid that cant be beaten for longer than like a week or two after it has been added</DIV> <DIV>and NOT just because its a broken encounter (see matron) or becuase it doesnt ever [Removed for Content] SPAWN (see dragons in PoF)</DIV> <DIV>the guilds that are out there destroying the content right as it comes up, thats awesome and takes serious dedication, but come on if this game is gonna last a long time it HAS to have something beyond,  New content added, kill it that night, farm for the next 4 months</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Miroh]

<b><i><font color="#ff0000">God how I wish that would happen.</font></i></b><div></div>

[Thug]

<DIV>of course t7 is a cakewalk to you guys, you're as skilled as them come. tarinax is still kicking our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] 8th time in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the problem is you guys want the best gear, and us casuals want to actually see new raid zones eventually without having to farm 1 zone for 3 months. we all want a challenge based on our abilities. if sony can't implement something that allows both, then only a subset will be happy. i'd like to see more happy. i'm not against only the best guilds getting the best gear. i'm against getting 0-1 new raid zones in the expansion because we aren't capable of farming Chel.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a perfect example of this would be a scaled tarinax-type dragon encounter. easy - everything but he doesn't have add spawn, and is lvl 74. hard - he is lvl 75, very hard - lvl 75 plus adds. that's not that hard to code. and you're asking for better itemization anyways, force them to do it right if they are going to do it at all.</DIV>

[Miroh]

<div><blockquote><hr>Thug wrote:<div>of course t7 is a cakewalk to you guys, you're as skilled as them come. tarinax is still kicking our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] 8th time in.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote> <b><i><font color="#ff0000"> That has nothing to do with it.  Did you have a chance to raid any in T5?  If not I can assure you that there was progression with gear depending on what you faught.  Contested mobs then held far more superior armor and weapons than really any of the zone instances could provide.  This gradually left in T6 and completely vanished in T7 save only a handful of items.  And instances, when SoTL came out that was the most difficult and therefore had the better loot and better drop rate than all the other Instances</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">   Some may be thinking, well with contested only one guild can get one per week thats not fair...of course it is,  it's difficult and it means you gotta be quick on your feet, not everyone has a choice on being able to go after them.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">   Now with the instances, when are we really going to get the true risk vs reward items back in the game as they were in T5?  All of these instances are just about alike, save for DT (Which I think is the 'new" SoTL) But still doesn't come to the amount of difficulty SoTL gave nor the rewards of it at it's time.....</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">   But back to that statement, alot of guilds that raided really had no experiance in T5.  Contested here and there as you leveled thru the tiers, very few "real" epic instances...I don't count epic Writs btw.  </font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">   Also, I only bring up T5 because that truely did have progression in it......</font></i></b></div>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thug wrote:<BR> <DIV>of course t7 is a cakewalk to you guys, you're as skilled as them come. tarinax is still kicking our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] 8th time in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the problem is you guys want the best gear, and us casuals want to actually see new raid zones eventually without having to farm 1 zone for 3 months. we all want a challenge based on our abilities. if sony can't implement something that allows both, then only a subset will be happy. i'd like to see more happy. i'm not against only the best guilds getting the best gear. i'm against getting 0-1 new raid zones in the expansion because we aren't capable of farming Chel.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a perfect example of this would be a scaled tarinax-type dragon encounter. easy - everything but he doesn't have add spawn, and is lvl 74. hard - he is lvl 75, very hard - lvl 75 plus adds. that's not that hard to code. and you're asking for better itemization anyways, force them to do it right if they are going to do it at all.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>the only hard thing about tarinax now is hes orange...  make him yellow and i'm solo tanking it with a raid of 6 healers...</P> <P>itemization is already so messed up right now, its basicly nerf all fabled not from named encounters...  relic become legandary along the lines of the PoA dragon drops...  the heroic instanced becomes treasued with a huge loss in stats...  and t6 raid fabled gear is better than or equal to all of these newly nerfed items...  also make the master1s stop being the norm off of heroic mobs, even named should be like a 1 in 100 chance...</P> <P>after thats done take the remaining fabled items remove all FT1-FT3 and all regen #...  look at the base stats of the armor and jewlery and the associted named they drop off of, compare that to the rest of the same type of item...  then look where each of these items drops and the difficulty of the mob (ie the best crusader shoulders drop off a 1 groupable spire mob)...  bump stats as needed or add a useful maintained effect (clicky effects are 95% pointless)... </P> <P>now take all the weapons take all the useless procs/effects off of them, and actully test them out in a 100%haste and 100% dps setting, then do the same with a 0 modifer to those stats...  also when a 1.0 delay has a a listed 5% chance to proc, change it to list what the actual chance the weapon has at its base delay...  after you're done doing that remove 66% of the 2H in T7, and the ones that remain should have equal stats to a 1H+shield or 2 DW, and add different procs to each of them (WTB t7 RGF)...  then take the now removed 2H from the loot tables and replace them with DW weapons, and some healer oriented 1H that are an upgrade to prizzy2...</P> <P>now that the start of itemization is done move on to the scaling encounters...  the con system needs to be changed before this is really a real option...  basicly everything except max HP and power are hardcapped at low numbers for yellow mobs so the only way to offset this is to make thier attacks hit for 30k before mitigation, or make mita mean nothing (see orange mobs)...</P> <P>now moving onto orange encounters...  there needs to be a better scaling of the lvl yellow to orange cons, its just like hitting a brick wall atm...  if its a more linear progression between them it might mean a little more, the hit, to-hit, and resists is night and day...  right now there is a luck factor involved on orange mobs (gotta love when AEs crit from orange mobs)...  i personally think orange mobs are a copout compared to the other interesting encounters that could be done...</P> <P>i also disagree with the scaling of mobs in zones like DT, Labs, AoA, and harla...  just for the simple fact that claymore runs threw there...  its the main questline of KoS, kinda like prizzy1 was in T5, not everyone finished it (many did but it was more towards the end of T5 than the start...</P>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>The armour sets could be a good idea.  Let's say, for example, the first raid zone in EoF is Crushbone Keep.  If this was itemised similarly to Labs you could have the named either drop molds/patterns or different armor sets for each class (I like the idea of relic style drops more tbh, stop people getting screwed if the same inquisitor hat drops every week).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you have your full Crushbone armour set, this would grant you a bonus, some sort of extra power which would make the next raid zone, let's say Felwithe, doable.  All the encounters in Felwithe would be tougher than Crushbone, so you'd need the majority of your guild in Crushbone gear to stand a chance here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then simply stick some different molds/patterns on the named in Felwithe, and make it so Felwithe armour is needed to start killing in Unrest or whatever the next zone is.</DIV>

[dparker7]

<P>So, you want to have to farm an instance once a week for a month to progress so that you can go farm the next instance once a week for a month, so that...</P> <P>No thanks.  Itemization in T7 needs work, but I like that organization and strategies are more important than obtaining the top end gear for the most part.  Farming to progress is the crappy part of raiding for me.  The fun part is experimenting with new encounters until you can finally beat them.  </P> <P>If you really have a burning need to farm, you can always farm plat on aversion, but thats more entertaining when you can kill the bots I guess.</P>

[HomeChicken]

<DIV>yah the fun part is learning the new mobs and experiencing new content, but while your doing that, the loot, the REWARD your workign towards should make sense</DIV> <DIV>and im sure this will go down as the most *elitest* thing to be said today, but fact of the matter is there should be something set in this game that says if you cant beat raid mob A and get yourself geared up from that mob (or zone, whatever) you shouldnt be able to kill raid mob B without a SERIOUS challenge or a bit of luck, and raid mob C should just be a complete pipe dream to think about killing it</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>no more of this *farm relic for a week* and be able to raid whatever you want</DIV> <DIV>or hell screw relic farming, *farm PoA for legendary gear for a week* and then raid whatever you want</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if not a gear setup of saying if your not this well equiped you cant beat this mob, if nothin else make it so you gotta just flag yourself by killing mob A before you can even enter the next zone</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im all about strats required to kill a raid, that is what makes it fun, no one wants vanilla mobs where tank taunts, healers heal, and dps, well they dps, raid mobs should always require that, but just a little sense of accomplishment would be nice, the access quest to DT was a nice idea before it got nerfed into instances, but meh.  Like it was brought up before, in T5, when my guild (well actually we were just a raid alliance then) started out, we realized hey guess what, Drayek and zalak were really all we could do, the rest of the mobs hit too hard, once we started getting a few key peices of gear and some masters / whatnot, we started moving up the ladder, and after a few months of doing that we started on the easy contested mobs, once we started getting gear from them we had the chance to go after basicly anything and we did, but now its nothing like that, the mobs require strats, thats awesome, but the gear that you can get off the broker is basicly good enough for raiding about 99% of the mobs out there, and that just makes no sense to me at all</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wtb raid progression, pst</DIV>

[Aandien]

<DIV>The main issue isn't item progression -- but rather the reliance on an extremely structured raid group based on class makeup.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason that many of the top-end guilds are top-end guilds has more to do with the fact that they understand roster management than it has to do with skill.  The vast majority of the encounters in the game are essentially all identical, but depending on the class makeup of the raid, the fight can be insanely difficult, or insanely easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The more casual guilds have difficulty on stuff because they bring 6 fighters, no scouts, 10 priests, and 8 wizards and other similarly horrible setups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they want item progression to be meaningful, they *have* to lessen the impact of the "perfect" raid force by a signficant amount.  If they don't -- and you end up with item progression *AND* the raid setup, then raids will be all but impossible for casual-raid guilds as they simply don't have the structure to maintain the required roster.</DIV><p>Message Edited by AncientElster on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:35 AM</span>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>dparker713 wrote:<div></div> <p>So, you want to have to farm an instance once a week for a month to progress so that you can go farm the next instance once a week for a month, so that...</p> <p>No thanks.  Itemization in T7 needs work, but I like that organization and strategies are more important than obtaining the top end gear for the most part.  Farming to progress is the crappy part of raiding for me.  The fun part is experimenting with new encounters until you can finally beat them.  </p> <p>If you really have a burning need to farm, you can always farm plat on aversion, but thats more entertaining when you can kill the bots I guess.</p><hr></blockquote>It's pretty simple,  if you don't like how it's setup don't raid.  Or raid older content (Labs, Loa, Hos, DT) when EoF comes out.  Every raid zone in T6/7 (With maybe the exception of PP:R) is doable by any guild with enough practice....so what if the 'elite' as you call them guilds had them figured out in 1-3 trips in.  There is more then enough [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] content for every other genre in this game right now, other then the top of the server raid guilds......and before people complain that it is 5% of the population, who cares....what makes your 5% better then ours?The OPs' idea I think would be a great idea, and in turn give EVERY guild who raids (or alliance raids) something to look forward to.....sure it might take some guilds 3x longer to get geared up, but who cares there isn't going to be more end game (and by end game I mean L70 atm, not just raiding) content after EoF for another 6 months, which is close to a year from now.</div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>AncientElster wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>The main issue isn't item progression -- but rather the reliance on an extremely structured raid group based on class makeup.</div> <div> </div> <div>The reason that many of the top-end guilds are top-end guilds has more to do with the fact that they understand roster management than it has to do with skill.  The vast majority of the encounters in the game are essentially all identical, but depending on the class makeup of the raid, the fight can be insanely difficult, or insanely easy.</div> <div> </div> <div>The more casual guilds have difficulty on stuff because they bring 6 fighters, no scouts, 10 priests, and 8 wizards and other similarly horrible setups.</div> <div> </div> <div>If they want item progression to be meaningful, they *have* to lessen the impact of the "perfect" raid force by a signficant amount.  If they don't -- and you end up with item progression *AND* the raid setup, then raids will be all but impossible for casual-raid guilds as they simply don't have the structure to maintain the required roster.</div><p>Message Edited by AncientElster on <span class="date_text">08-09-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:35 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>...and who cares?The content is available to everyone, yes....but what fun is an encounter that you can just throw random 24 people at, and beat?  If people are more casual and want to bring 6 fighters, 10 priests and 8 wizards....then that is there choice, and they might not be as successful as other guilds.....but why punish guilds who do care about roster management because some casual guild <Pretty Pink Bunnies> thinks' they should be able to beat every encounter with whoever the hell they want?</div>

[Slashflex]

I like the idea, but lets be honest, it will never be implemented for the same reasons we see people disliking it in this thread. They havent beat t7 content, its still "whipping their [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" but they want to go into EoF and walk around like they own the place all the same. It makes perfect sense that you fully gear up in KoS and then your ready to take on the easier raid zones in EoF, but is already too much whining against it.I think what may have a chance at happening is this:Say there are 5 raid zones. Each raid zone is of the same difficulty. The first named or 2 are the easy mobs. You need to be KoS raid geared to kill them still, but compared to the rest of the zone they are a cakewalk.The next couple of named in the zone are more middle of the road. Unless you are fully KoS geared with some gear you have gotten off the easier named prior to these you dont stand a chance. Even then, if you didnt pretty much breeze through the first couple of named, there is no chance of you winning against these next few. 99% of the guilds will need to spend at least a month farming the easier couple of named in each zone.The third couple of named are HARD. You need to have farmed all 5 raid instances for a little while up to the HARD mobs before your going to be able to take them down, no matter who you are. KoS gear will be as laughable as wearing t5 fabled is now when it comes to attempting these named. They simply will not be beatable by anyone for at least a couple months worth of gearing, and sorry, but you more casual guilds may have to spend the better part of a year working to kill these one or two named mobs. But that should be ok because you had the previous 4 or so in each zone at your disposal and your not asking for everything to be made easy and handed out to you on a silver platter right?Finally there is a boss of each raid zone. The boss should be badass contested difficult. Think of the boss of each raid zone as the Djinn Master. Only a handful of guilds worldwide are going to beat them in each zone before new content comes out. Their loot should reflect that. Put some sort of proc/effect on this gear that will be beneficial to have in some form in the next tier so that other guilds have a reason to go back and kill it once they receive some more levels later on.Of course there should be some easy contested to, but most of the contested mobs in EoF need to be badass because the Cube mobs on Isle of Ravasect have shown us what a waste of time it is to put in contested mobs that are a complete joke. Easy mobs shouldnt have good loot, if they dont have good loot people wont want to kill them as much and if anyone can kill them with one group, its a heroic mob, not an epic. READ - Easy contested = heroic that allow lesser guilds to bring x4 people with. Dont make that mistake again please.

[CrazedMut]

I agree with a lot of what has been said. Tier 7 was a real mess in terms of progression of both difficulty and item progression. Relic is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near close to most Fabled drops, and zones further up progression chain which drop nice stuff such as HoS and Deathtoll are not nearly as hard as they could be. I would have like to have seen tiers of zones drop tiers of gear such as..Tier 1. Trash - > Relic (Easy mobs with Entry Level gear not much better than T7 Legendary)Tier 2. AoAx4 and Lyceum - Tier 1 (Slightly Challenging mobs with Nice gear better than Relic)Tier 3. Halls of Seeing and Labs of Lord Vyemm - Tier 2 (Hard mobs with Very nice gear better than Tier 2)Tier 4. Deathtoll and Contesteds - Tier 3 (Extremely Tough mobs with Awesome gear better than Tier 3)This would "force" progression, and make people look forward to gearing up and making progress to reach the next level of advancement. At the moment all of those zones are more or less the same difficulty (give or take a hard mob) and they all seem to drop the same standard of gear. This means it's easier to pick a zone with far more drops say Labs and Halls of Seeing and ignore the rest entirely. I hope SOE can learn for subsequent Tiers.<div></div>

[Fistantantilus]

It will not happen for the simple reason... soe wants to sell the expansion to lots of ppl to make $$$if they say " hello, in order to progress to EoF you need to have been very well geared with the best KoS raid equipment"how many copies do you reckon they will sell ? I will tell you, not enough to cover the development cost. And why a company will  work on something that does not bring $$$ ?thx <div></div>

[Slashflex]

<blockquote><hr>Fistantantilus wrote:It will not happen for the simple reason... soe wants to sell the expansion to lots of ppl to make $$$if they say " hello, in order to progress to EoF you need to have been very well geared with the best KoS raid equipment"how many copies do you reckon they will sell ? I will tell you, not enough to cover the development cost. And why a company will  work on something that does not bring $$$ ?thx <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah because raiders would buy it, non raiders would still buy it, um....who wouldnt buy it if they said there was going to be raid progression?

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fistantantilus wrote:<BR>It will not happen for the simple reason... soe wants to sell the expansion to lots of ppl to make $$$<BR><BR>if they say " hello, in order to progress to EoF you need to have been very well geared with the best KoS raid equipment"<BR><BR>how many copies do you reckon they will sell ? I will tell you, not enough to cover the development cost. And why a company will  work on something that does not bring $$$ ?<BR><BR>thx <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is just about the High End Raid content. Not about anything else. The majority of the content will still be catered to Soloers and Groupers like it always is, and their is already a ton of casual and easy raid content in the game for the less skilled and less determined guilds (Even more with the new Guild Raids added today).

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thug wrote:<BR> <DIV>of course t7 is a cakewalk to you guys, you're as skilled as them come. tarinax is still kicking our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] 8th time in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the problem is you guys want the best gear, and us casuals want to actually see new raid zones eventually without having to farm 1 zone for 3 months. we all want a challenge based on our abilities. if sony can't implement something that allows both, then only a subset will be happy. i'd like to see more happy. i'm not against only the best guilds getting the best gear. i'm against getting 0-1 new raid zones in the expansion because we aren't capable of farming Chel.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As long as their is enough content their shouldn't be a problem, their is a plethora of starter and easy raid zones along with the new guild raids aimed at the less skilled and less determined guilds like yours. So it's not like you will get 1 raid zone only.</P> <P>and 3 Months for a Hardcore Player and 3 Months for a Casual player is vastly different. When I raid for 3 Months thats 3 months 5-6 days a week 3-4 hours a day. When Joe Casual Raids for 3 Months that 1-2 Times per week maybe 2-3 hours a day. The Time Invested will eventually be the same but joe casual just takes more real time to do it. But really, if your casual then you shouldn't be all that worried about getting it done asap right?<BR></P>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AncientElster wrote:<BR> <DIV>The main issue isn't item progression -- but rather the reliance on an extremely structured raid group based on class makeup.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason that many of the top-end guilds are top-end guilds has more to do with the fact that they understand roster management than it has to do with skill.  The vast majority of the encounters in the game are essentially all identical, but depending on the class makeup of the raid, the fight can be insanely difficult, or insanely easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The more casual guilds have difficulty on stuff because they bring 6 fighters, no scouts, 10 priests, and 8 wizards and other similarly horrible setups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they want item progression to be meaningful, they *have* to lessen the impact of the "perfect" raid force by a signficant amount.  If they don't -- and you end up with item progression *AND* the raid setup, then raids will be all but impossible for casual-raid guilds as they simply don't have the structure to maintain the required roster.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by AncientElster on <SPAN class=date_text>08-09-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:35 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ah but to counter act this most casual raiding guilds have 60+ people and are therefore better able to choose who they want. Most Top End raid guilds have between 24-36 people on the roster. So it ends up being the same.

[Aandien]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>...and who cares?<BR><BR>The content is available to everyone, yes....but what fun is an encounter that you can just throw random 24 people at, and beat?  If people are more casual and want to bring 6 fighters, 10 priests and 8 wizards....then that is there choice, and they might not be as successful as other guilds.....but why punish guilds who do care about roster management because some casual guild <Pretty Pink Bunnies> thinks' they should be able to beat every encounter with whoever the hell they want?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I care because the system is screwed up as it is.  On one night I can blow through every mob in any raid zone with 20k dps and not a single death.  On another night, if 3-4 people dont' show up and instead we get 3-4 different people, the raid dps drops to 10k or so and it takes a lot more effort to clear the exact same zone / contested / whatever.  In some cases (like the MO) its nearly impossible to do unless you have the right classes to keep your raid DPS around 13k or so.</P> <P>Its stupid how the difficulty of every raid in this game is based almost entirely on your raid makeup and has absolutely nothing to do with the skill of the players outside of healers ability of being able to cure quickly.</P>

[Krontak]

I'm sure its way way too late to implement anything like this unless its already been done.  I'm sure they are busy coding in thier current plans that have been layed out for the last 4 months.  Bring up your argument once EOF is released or near to it.   Maybe they would go as far as release an expansion pack focused solely on raiding in the future.  That would be interesting.  A zone or linked zone with only contested and instanced raid zones with progression built in.  Or maybe they'll just tell you all to go [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] yourself and stop whining. 

[Slashflex]

<blockquote><hr>AncientElster wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>MeridianR wrote:<BR><DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE>...and who cares?<BR><BR>The content is available to everyone, yes....but what fun is an encounter that you can just throw random 24 people at, and beat?  If people are more casual and want to bring 6 fighters, 10 priests and 8 wizards....then that is there choice, and they might not be as successful as other guilds.....but why punish guilds who do care about roster management because some casual guild <Pretty Pink Bunnies> thinks' they should be able to beat every encounter with whoever the hell they want?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I care because the system is screwed up as it is.  On one night I can blow through every mob in any raid zone with 20k dps and not a single death.  On another night, if 3-4 people dont' show up and instead we get 3-4 different people, the raid dps drops to 10k or so and it takes a lot more effort to clear the exact same zone / contested / whatever.  In some cases (like the MO) its nearly impossible to do unless you have the right classes to keep your raid DPS around 13k or so.</P><P>Its stupid how the difficulty of every raid in this game is based almost entirely on your raid makeup and has absolutely nothing to do with the skill of the players outside of healers ability of being able to cure quickly.</P><hr></blockquote>Then your players arent very good. If some guilds can kill the MO with 17 or 18 people, then raid make up isnt really the only factor because I am sure I could put the same groups together with the same classes and watch as most guilds would fail with only 3 groups.

[ChaosUndivided]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Slashflex wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AncientElster wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> <BR>MeridianR wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>...and who cares?<BR><BR>The content is available to everyone, yes....but what fun is an encounter that you can just throw random 24 people at, and beat?  If people are more casual and want to bring 6 fighters, 10 priests and 8 wizards....then that is there choice, and they might not be as successful as other guilds.....but why punish guilds who do care about roster management because some casual guild <Pretty Pink Bunnies> thinks' they should be able to beat every encounter with whoever the hell they want?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I care because the system is screwed up as it is.  On one night I can blow through every mob in any raid zone with 20k dps and not a single death.  On another night, if 3-4 people dont' show up and instead we get 3-4 different people, the raid dps drops to 10k or so and it takes a lot more effort to clear the exact same zone / contested / whatever.  In some cases (like the MO) its nearly impossible to do unless you have the right classes to keep your raid DPS around 13k or so.</P><BR> <P>Its stupid how the difficulty of every raid in this game is based almost entirely on your raid makeup and has absolutely nothing to do with the skill of the players outside of healers ability of being able to cure quickly.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Then your players arent very good. If some guilds can kill the MO with 17 or 18 people, then raid make up isnt really the only factor because I am sure I could put the same groups together with the same classes and watch as most guilds would fail with only 3 groups.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agreed.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

What is the perfect makeup?  Do you need an Assassin, do you need a Necro? Do you more then 1 Brig?So what might be your perfect setup, isn't everyone's perfect setup.<div></div>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>What is the perfect makeup?  Do you need an Assassin, do you need a Necro? Do you more then 1 Brig?<BR><BR>So what might be your perfect setup, isn't everyone's perfect setup.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>4 healers, MT, dirge, coercer, the rest are brigands...  or 24 monks chaining tsunami...

[Krontak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wabit wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>What is the perfect makeup?  Do you need an Assassin, do you need a Necro? Do you more then 1 Brig?<BR><BR>So what might be your perfect setup, isn't everyone's perfect setup.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>4 healers, MT, dirge, coercer, the rest are brigands...  or 24 monks chaining tsunami...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>:smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy:<BR>

[Copperhed]

<div></div><div><i>*edited becuase, as its been pointed out, i seem to have misunderstood the post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />-------</i>now, i do, in fact, agree with the Khalan, and i think that SOE needs to take a look at it and consider it. the ramifications being that there will ALWAYS be the guilds that sit back and say 'im PAYING for this zone, i am entitled to be IN it' like the antechamber of fate. if SOE would just bite the bullet and ignore such blatherings of entitlement, they could make some progress. i think progression is a great idea, but the bar would have to be set a little lower, and i think less linear. let beginner and light casuals do their thing and have a zone or two to play in, such as labs and lyceum. lets face it, there are a LOT of guilds that are still challenged by some of the KoS zones, and you cant start the EoF raid zones where the KoS ones left off. i, btw, disagree with the 'difficulties' subject. wheres the challenge if you can just select 'easy' tarinax and get claymore done. i dont want my stuff handed to me, the fun for me in raiding is working on strategy, and the sense of accomplishment when we finally do return the whuppins a mobs been giving us for weeks. on another note, why not just introduce a 'raiding expansion' complete with tiered raid zones? is there some reason that wouldnt work?</div><p>Message Edited by Copperhed on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:14 AM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Copperhed wrote:on another note, why not just introduce a 'raiding expansion' complete with tiered raid zones? is there some reason that wouldnt work?<hr></blockquote>How much money would that expansion cost, and would make? There would be no money made off it in EQ2.Now as for the rest of your post, Devizion obviously wants BETTER gear to be dropping so he doesn't have to use Doomseer and be able to show that he's got better gear than somebody can raid labs. This is the comments being made, it's not about how you shouldn't have doomseer if you can clear the zone, it's about the fact that there isn't anything better than Doomseer(well, mostly) that he can get.

[Slashflex]

Ok the post 2 up from this one is all over the place. I have no idea what the heck is going on there.I assume the person quoted was upset that they kill everything, like chel'drak, contesteds, etc, and this other person they run by is in full doomseer and the only zone they kill is labs. Its sad that some of, if not the best, gear comes from that one easy zone so despite killing any and everything including much harder encounters, this guy has worse gear simply because the doomseer hasnt dropped for them off the easier encounters.But then the second half the post above was all like, i agree and stuff. Thus my confusion.<p>Message Edited by Slashflex on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:19 AM</span>

[ChaosUndivided]

<P>They need to re-introduce Gear Sets off Contested like in t5.</P> <P>Venekor had Poison Etched</P> <P>Krathuk had Engimatic</P> <P>Vox had Illuminating (I think)</P> <P>Nagalik had the Brawler Set.</P> <P>Vazgok had the Fighter Set. (Vanguard Cuirass of Fury IIRC).</P> <P>Etc etc, they need more armour sets like the ones in Labs, but these need to drop off chel'drak difficulty encounters and contested raid zones.</P> <P> </P>

[Gaellen]

You know what would completely rock the boat?  One of those 7 dollar adventure packs... with raids.  Just raids.  x2, x3, x4, even just a handful, but completely raid-centric.  Nobody who didn't want to raid, would have to buy it.  People who wanted more raids each week, would.  Wishful thinking? And on topic, I really don't think Critknablahblah in PPR is a good example.  We beat her our first time in the zone, in t5 gear, on the 3rd pull.  Really really not a great example of teiring.  A better one would be the difference between the mobs required for Fountain access, vs the mobs inside the Fountain.  Or the comparisons between the Siyamek and Barakah in Maj'Dul, and the Siyamek and Barakah encounter in Pedestal of Sky.  That was some real advancement, at least in our experience.  When we first tried POS and saw how hard those guys hit, and the focus required to burn them at the same time, with two solid MT's, deal with positioning, and all that other fun stuff, it was pretty clear we needed not only to beat a ton of other zones for experience, but also seroiusly gear up our people.  And it made a difference. <div></div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<P>I know people hate orange mobs, but I love the difficulty associated with them. Jura'nata, DMP, PoS, Chel'drak are all really fun because their orange.</P> <P>Orange makes you sweat and work extra hard.</P> <P> </P> <P>I WOULD like more linear progression however, the difference between 74 and 75 is astronomical.</P> <P>I remember seeing Jura'nata for the 1st time at level 68, and us being 60, my jaw just dropped.</P>

[Aandien]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Slashflex wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Then your players arent very good. If some guilds can kill the MO with 17 or 18 people, then raid make up isnt really the only factor because I am sure I could put the same groups together with the same classes and watch as most guilds would fail with only 3 groups.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>MO is entirely about DPS and knowing a couple of minor details in regards to what mobs do what and are resistant to what.</P> <P>You cannot beat MO with 3 groups unless those 3 groups are capable of approx 14-15k DPS sustained.  You cannot achieve that DPS with 3 groups unless you have some very specific classes in those groups.  Give me your 3 groups and let me replace 4 of them with other classes of my choosing and I'll bet you all the PP in the world you can no longer beat it (and no, I wouldn't [Removed for Content] your # of healers..though I may replace your inqs).</P> <P>You cant honestly believe that raids in this game require very much tactics at all....its nearly all class makeup.<BR></P>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AncientElster wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Slashflex wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Then your players arent very good. If some guilds can kill the MO with 17 or 18 people, then raid make up isnt really the only factor because I am sure I could put the same groups together with the same classes and watch as most guilds would fail with only 3 groups.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>MO is entirely about DPS and knowing a couple of minor details in regards to what mobs do what and are resistant to what.</P> <P>You cannot beat MO with 3 groups unless those 3 groups are capable of approx 14-15k DPS sustained.  You cannot achieve that DPS with 3 groups unless you have some very specific classes in those groups.  Give me your 3 groups and let me replace 4 of them with other classes of my choosing and I'll bet you all the PP in the world you can no longer beat it (and no, I wouldn't [Removed for Content] your # of healers..though I may replace your inqs).</P> <P>You cant honestly believe that raids in this game require very much tactics at all....its nearly all class makeup.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The point is, it can be done with 18 very specific classes or 24 more general classes.

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>AncientElster wrote:MO is entirely about DPS and knowing a couple of minor details in regards to what mobs do what and are resistant to what.You cannot beat MO with 3 groups unless those 3 groups are capable of approx 14-15k DPS sustained.  You cannot achieve that DPS with 3 groups unless you have some very specific classes in those groups.  Give me your 3 groups and let me replace 4 of them with other classes of my choosing and I'll bet you all the PP in the world you can no longer beat it (and no, I wouldn't [Removed for Content] your # of healers..though I may replace your inqs).You cant honestly believe that raids in this game require very much tactics at all....its nearly all class makeup.<hr></blockquote>MO is balanced around having 4 groups. It can be beat with 3 groups specialized in DPS sure, but the fact is, changing 4 people in the 4-group raid will not make it unbeatable, if it can be beat with 3 groups.

[Devizi]

<blockquote><hr>Copperhed wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Devizion wrote:Thug I may have misinterpreted your post but, It seems to me like we'd be stepping backwards with the idea you presented.  For example, on any given raid day(mon-fri for SD) I'm running to whatever it is we may be raiding.  Now maybe its just me, but when I see 5 or 6 Shaman on the way in almost all Doomseer like myself....I tend to get really frustrated.  Why do I get frustrated? Because I know I spend more time/effort/dedication to this game and I have absolutely jack [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to show for it.  I'd like to have gear that says, "I'm number 1 and everyone knows it."  I may come off as one arrogant SOB but hey, so be it. <span></span> <div></div><hr></blockquote>explain to me why you think you should get extra recognition for killing the same exact mobs they do? why should your doomseer be called anything different or rated on a separate scale than anyone else's doomseer just cuz its SD that killed the slavering alzid, or whatever else mob? get over yourself. its not a hard zone, even less-than-casual raiders have been tagging some named. im wearing the gear that i wear because we, as a raid, earned it. some doomseer drops off trash, but not all of it. lets take the pants for example. they dont drop of trash, they drop off the alzid. what makes you so special that you feel that you get to be frustrated that other guilds earned it? we sure as hell didnt earn it by farming trash. we didnt earn it by getting lucky. we have been clearing labs for months now. not just trash but EVERYTHING. why is it that you should get more recognition for doing the exact same thing? does my account cost as much as anyone elses? yes. do i feel that entitles me to get into the antechamber of fate based upon that principle alone? NO. we are a casual guild, and by all means, not elitist, but i can tell you that i put forth a LOT of time, effort, debt, and repair kits towards gaining access to antechamber of fate. and in the long run, i have it cuz my group earned it. do i feel that having access makes me better than anyone else that has access? no. but it is good to know that no matter who links the stupid item, they were in a group that worked for it. which is why i dont care who is walking around in the doomseer leggings. good for them. *steps down off the soapbox* now, i do, in fact, agree with the Khalan, and i think that SOE needs to take a look at it and consider it. the ramifications being that there will ALWAYS be the guilds that sit back and say 'im PAYING for this zone, i am entitled to be IN it' like the antechamber of fate. if SOE would just bite the bullet and ignore such blatherings of entitlement, they could make some progress. i think progression is a great idea, but the bar would have to be set a little lower, and i think less linear. let beginner and light casuals do their thing and have a zone or two to play in, such as labs and lyceum. lets face it, there are a LOT of guilds that are still challenged by some of the KoS zones, and you cant start the EoF raid zones where the KoS ones left off. i, btw, disagree with the 'difficulties' subject. wheres the challenge if you can just select 'easy' tarinax and get claymore done. i dont want my stuff handed to me, the fun for me in raiding is working on strategy, and the sense of accomplishment when we finally do return the whuppins a mobs been giving us for weeks. on another note, why not just introduce a 'raiding expansion' complete with tiered raid zones? is there some reason that wouldnt work?</div><hr></blockquote>You missed the point of my post completly.  Congratulations you clear Labs but, you don't kill MO, Hurricanus, and 3 princes.  I do, every week in fact.  I wan't gear that shows I go above and beyond what you and your guild does.  I don't get this because Doomseer drops off the easiest [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing zone in the game so every noob and his brother has it.  The best players should be /inspected and most people should drool over what they have.  Right now that is completly not the case because of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] itemization.  So what it boils down too is I have to wear the same gear as you, even though I put more time/dedication/ and effort into the game.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr><blockquote><hr>AncientElster wrote:MO is entirely about DPS and knowing a couple of minor details in regards to what mobs do what and are resistant to what.You cannot beat MO with 3 groups unless those 3 groups are capable of approx 14-15k DPS sustained.  You cannot achieve that DPS with 3 groups unless you have some very specific classes in those groups.  Give me your 3 groups and let me replace 4 of them with other classes of my choosing and I'll bet you all the PP in the world you can no longer beat it (and no, I wouldn't [Removed for Content] your # of healers..though I may replace your inqs).You cant honestly believe that raids in this game require very much tactics at all....its nearly all class makeup.<hr></blockquote>..and again what class makeup?  Do you need an Assassin to beat everything?  Do you need a Necro?  Can it be done with just 1 Brig? You state over and over that it is specific class makeup, yet don't expand on that point.<hr></blockquote></div>

[Slashflex]

<blockquote><hr>AncientElster wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Slashflex wrote:<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Then your players arent very good. If some guilds can kill the MO with 17 or 18 people, then raid make up isnt really the only factor because I am sure I could put the same groups together with the same classes and watch as most guilds would fail with only 3 groups.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><P>MO is entirely about DPS and knowing a couple of minor details in regards to what mobs do what and are resistant to what.</P><P>You cannot beat MO with 3 groups unless those 3 groups are capable of approx 14-15k DPS sustained.  You cannot achieve that DPS with 3 groups unless you have some very specific classes in those groups.  Give me your 3 groups and let me replace 4 of them with other classes of my choosing and I'll bet you all the PP in the world you can no longer beat it (and no, I wouldn't [Removed for Content] your # of healers..though I may replace your inqs).</P><P>You cant honestly believe that raids in this game require very much tactics at all....its nearly all class makeup.<BR></P><hr></blockquote>Like the others said, it can be beaten with 18 people, so 18 of the right classes and then 6 of whatever class you want to throw in makes that less than ideal. Its not too much to say you need to have 3/4ths of the raid be setup for a raid where the last fourth can be whatever you want.BTW why would you need sustained DPS on the MO? The thing drops in like a minute and change.

[Copperhed]

<div><blockquote><hr>Devizion wrote:You missed the point of my post completly.  Congratulations you clear Labs but, you don't kill MO, Hurricanus, and 3 princes.  I do, every week in fact.  I wan't gear that shows I go above and beyond what you and your guild does.  I don't get this because Doomseer drops off the easiest [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing zone in the game so every noob and his brother has it.  The best players should be /inspected and most people should drool over what they have.  Right now that is completly not the case because of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] itemization.  So what it boils down too is I have to wear the same gear as you, even though I put more time/dedication/ and effort into the game.<div></div><hr></blockquote>            #1 i edited my post to reflect that i recognize that i missed what you were saying because it wasnt clear.#2 while i agree that you put in more time, i dont think you can judge how much effort i put in with the time i have. thats an unfair assessment. effort /= time.NOW, if you want gear that reflects your accomplishments, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about that. there should be some other tier of gear. relic being first, doomseer (class) being second, and then stuff off of the contesteds being 3rd. from what ive seen, there are several of really nice pieces that fall off epics. its not casual raiders's fault that youve yet to find something better. its sony's. if there isnt anything better than doomseer, then give SOE some feedback.as i stated, there should be some raid zones designed STRICTLY for the 'hardcore' raiders. that way we dont have to listen to the 'elitists' [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and whine just because they are LOWERED to wearing the good gear that some of us casuals are wearing*. (that attitude, btw, is what makes ppl think ill of hardcore raiders)  i dont, however, feel that casuals should be punished just because the hardcores are 'bored', either with the zones or their gear. i dont want to see the 'light raiding' guilds get stuck on tier 1 just because they have not been lucky enough to have the right armor pieces drop during the few times they can raid, however, i dont want to see them strutting through every single raid zone either. every decent raiding guild has been in their shoes, tho its been a long time for some of us. currently, theres a pretty decent setup, with labs, lyceum, halls, and dt, along with the 'small' ones like gorenair and talendor. i just think what is lacking is the 'UBER' zone for the hardcores. something like dt meets antechamber of fate. something that guilds like SD and NPU can hit for 5-8 hrs of their playtime and be challenged and kept busy, while the rest of us are still enjoying our clears through dt and halls. SOE has a major challenge on their hands. pleasing everyone isnt going to happen. its going to be interesting to see how they tackle the problem of pleasing the vast majority.*i feel obligated to say that, for the most part, our servers 'hardcore' raid guilds have handled it rather well, with a few exceptions, and arent generally wandering around yapping about who is better than whom. i talk to several members of almost every 'elite' guild and have found very few to be insufferably arrogant. however, most do agree that they are getting bored with the raids cuz they dont have much of a challenge anymore. <blockquote></blockquote></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Copperhed wrote:from what ive seen, there are several of really nice pieces that fall off epics.<hr></blockquote>Lets take a look at what a shaman wants off contesteds:The Mallet off the 3-princes.Hurricanas Forged Bracers off HurricanasUhm, that's all I can think of, maybe some can help me out here on what else a Shaman would want off the contesteds.

[Copperhed]

<div></div>for the record, since youve quoted me out of context, i was referring to raid zone epics, not contested, but i would like to see the stuff that falls off the contested, just so we know what it is that is being turned down in favor of the raid zone items. edit: i did some research, and yeah, some of the contested armor items really arent much better, if even comparative. maybe those ppl unsatisfied with it should petition it. however, it would seem that there are a lot of weapons and secondary that are insanely impressive compared to raid zone stuff, so no total pity from this corner.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Copperhed on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:50 AM</span>

[Thug]

<DIV>i should have known if i used the "tarinax-type" encounter as an example people would read it wrong and think i said easy version of tarinax for claymore. it was an example of a 'type' people, nothing to do with tarinax specifically.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so much for trying to actually discuss something. people twist what is said and make it like i'm just whining and want everything easy. done with this cause it's degenerating into a gear-[Removed for Content]-envy issue when it should be about challenge and fun at all levels. </DIV>

[Slashflex]

<blockquote><hr>Thug wrote:<DIV>i should have known if i used the "tarinax-type" encounter as an example people would read it wrong and think i said easy version of tarinax for claymore. it was an example of a 'type' people, nothing to do with tarinax specifically.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>so much for trying to actually discuss something. people twist what is said and make it like i'm just whining and want everything easy. done with this cause it's degenerating into a gear-[Removed for Content]-envy issue when it should be about challenge and fun at all levels. </DIV><hr></blockquote>You cant have challenge and fun at the top levels if everything is easy or the loot isnt noticeably better and more meaningful wich you in then turn call a gear-[Removed for Content]-envy issue.So what your really saying is that you want everyone but the high end raiders to have fun and a challenge.

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Copperhed wrote:<BR>for the record, since youve quoted me out of context, i was referring to raid zone epics, not contested, but i would like to see the stuff that falls off the contested, just so we know what it is that is being turned down in favor of the raid zone items. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Basically for 80% of your slots on the left, Labs Gear Set are the best, Nothing drops with as much consistency and quality as the gear sets from labs. Contested and harder mobs may drop 1 or 2 pieces per class that are an upgrade but the majority of raid gear is from labs. </P> <P>Ontop of all this the Lab Gear sets provide something that contested mobs and harder instances can't provide; Consistency in Appearance and Visual Appeal. You may laugh at me but character looks are pretty important to most players and owning a full set of matching gear is something many people (including myself) aspire to.</P> <P> </P>

[Slashflex]

I aspire to have a lot of procs.

[Copperhed]

<div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Copperhed wrote:for the record, since youve quoted me out of context, i was referring to raid zone epics, not contested, but i would like to see the stuff that falls off the contested, just so we know what it is that is being turned down in favor of the raid zone items. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Basically for 80% of your slots on the left, Labs Gear Set are the best, Nothing drops with as much consistency and quality as the gear sets from labs. Contested and harder mobs may drop 1 or 2 pieces per class that are an upgrade but the majority of raid gear is from labs. </p> <p>Ontop of all this the Lab Gear sets provide something that contested mobs and harder instances can't provide; Consistency in Appearance and Visual Appeal. You may laugh at me but character looks are pretty important to most players and owning a full set of matching gear is something many people (including myself) aspire to.</p> <hr></blockquote>lol, no i agree on the aesthetics. when im running around in a green and black chestpiece, red shoulders, and black/blue everything else, and yet im still more consistantly colored than many other defilers ive seen, both raiding and not, there is definitely a problem. i have absolutely no honorable reason for wanting the doomseer tunic over the relic other than the fact that i look like i went shopping in the ninja turtles dressing rooms. i dig the black chain, its way hot. the shoulders, however, (and this is my opinion) are inferior to the claymore ones power/wis wise. thats a whole other can of worms, the matching items. someday, i hope to see dyes, as many others.labs is still, by far, the best place to suit your raid up, i completely agree. its sortof a bummer that the drops are so random, but thats off the subject, as is the dyes.while i dont agree with the way he said it, your defiler is right in the point he was attempting to make. the best armor in the game shouldnt fall in a zone that simple and farmable. while i think great gear should drop from it, there needs to be another lvl. (a preferably matching one *snicker*)</div>

[dparker7]

<P>Devs have already said that you'll need KoS raid gear to do the EoF encounters, but after that, there will be a new level cap and your tanks are going to need to start over.  Once you factor in the 18% loss in mit when the level cap gets raised, their top tier fabled will again pale in comparision to t8 legendary and beginning fabled.  Then, when t8 starts out, you'll be left with 1 instance to get upgrades and you'll need to farm the crap out of it.  Thats just not something Im interested in.</P> <P>As for 5% of the population, thats a bit generous.  We're talking what, 20 guilds worldwide at 30ish members per?  Even if you double that its only 1200 players.  I havent looked at the subscription numbers recently, but if EQ2 only has 24k active subscribers, SOE has a big problem on its hands.  </P> <P>Frankly, this game never has been and never will be as raid-centric as EQ became.  Its not EQ with different graphics.  Truly hardcore raiding isnt supported by this game, and if thats the only thing that floats your boat, you should look for a new game.</P> <P>PS - I raid 6 nights a week too, but I do it cause I enjoy it.  I dont do it so that I have gear guy X doesnt have.</P>

[Slashflex]

Why would you bring t8 into this discussion? t8 is a completely different matter as it is a new tier.

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>dparker713 wrote:Devs have already said that you'll need KoS raid gear to do the EoF encounters, but after that, there will be a new level cap and your tanks are going to need to start over.  Once you factor in the 18% loss in mit when the level cap gets raised, their top tier fabled will again pale in comparision to t8 legendary and beginning fabled.  Then, when t8 starts out, you'll be left with 1 instance to get upgrades and you'll need to farm the crap out of it.  Thats just not something Im interested in.<hr></blockquote>What does T8 gear have to do with EoF though? We're talking EoF, not the expansion after EoF. We'll worry about that expansion once EoF is cleared, but until then, it isn't on anybody's view screen to really care about it.

[Dragonsviperz]

<DIV>EoF = Tier 7.5. Last time I checked 7.5 does not equal 8.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>Orange mobs are orange because the mechanics say they have to be.  With avoidance upwards of 70% and mitigation over 80% with a ton of HP they have to make them orange to make them challenging, or they have to make some crazy script.</P> <P>I'm impressed with how hard the KoS contested is considering they're yellow.</P> <P>Somehow I imagine that things will change in the future and we'll see less orange mobs, because they won't have to be orange anymore to hit the tank.</P>

[Noah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <DIV>EQ2 Has a distinct lack of gear progression in the High End Game. Generally most encounters can be defeated with Relic Armour farmed off trash mobs. Hopefully with EoF the Gap Between Relic and Top end Raid gear is increased to the point where Relic Armour doesn't cut it for the Harder Raid zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In WoW they have Tier'd Raid Zones. Each tier drops gear that is needed for the next zone. This progression is almost forced due to what I dub "Gear Check Mobs' and I think EQ2's raid game could benefit. Basically what I'm proposing is tier'd raid zones in difficulty.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Atm we have Labs, HoS, Lyceum and DT. And Except for a few mobs in some of the zones, if you can beat 1 zone you can clear the rest, in relatively the same gear. This kills progression.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I'm proposing is that for future raid zones to have mobs, that require a certain amount of DPS, Healing, Mitigation, HP's and Resists to beat. The Strats for these mobs do not have to be difficult they can be very simple in terms of strats but <EM>Mechanically </EM>these mobs should be incredibly hard requireing the top end gear from the previous tier to progress.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imagine something like PPR in Tier 6. Critinka was basically a gear check mob, Orange and Tough, If you didn't have the proper gear, healing etc you wouldn't really get far.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now let's take something like EoF which is coming up and Apply this concept to that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Let's assume 4 tier 7 Raid Zones in EoF.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our 1st Raid zone is The Easiest and Tuned in difficulty to the high end of KoS Gearing. That is, the mobs require basically the best gear obtainable from KoS (Contested notwithstanding, although contested gear is hardly the best). The 1st Mob in this zone could be orange and perhaps level 75 or 76, and hit incredibly hard, incredibly fast. Basically this mob has no tricks or gimmicks besides how mechanically hard the encounter is in terms of DPS output and Healing Required. They could also require this mob to be killed in a certain time limit to test a guilds DPS abilities. This mob would hit harder than anything found in KoS. This mob would be the guardian in the zone, at the entrance or perhaps a Mob needed for an access quest. Nonetheless the raid could not progress in this raid zone without killing this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next the rest of the zone is populated with similar mobs in ability, perhaps even slightly less, BUT the <EM>Complexity </EM>of these encounters would be along the likes of Chel'drak and 3 Princes, Basically Think Labs but with every mob requiring complex and technically demanding strats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fill this Zone with Tier 7.25 Raid Gear. Stuff Better than what can be found in KoS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Repeat this again for the Second Raid zone, however now tune the encounters to require gear from the Tier 1 EoF Raid zone. Again Complex and Technical Encounters are the key here with Gear Checking Mechanically Hard Encounters to ensure proper amounts of gearing have taken place. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Repeat Again for the Remaining Raid zones, with each one tuned harder and harder, requiring gear from the previous tier raid zone. Now Tune Contested mobs to require Gearing from the Top Tier Raid zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, their needs to be progression, and they need to introduce mobs that kick your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] so hard and basically tell you "Your not ready for this zone, keep gearing up and getting better"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>To make this happen, an entire revamp of how stats are used would have to come into play.   At the same time, the mechanic behind the mob con color rips apart the current system.</P> <P>Your idea, I believe, is what they have had in mind all along but due to the current combat system - it just is not possible.</P> <P>When / if the system is fix (again) - then more teiring like mentioned above can occur and the rewards will be able to be "on par" and useful.</P>

[Devizi]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>Copperhed wrote:from what ive seen, there are several of really nice pieces that fall off epics.<hr></blockquote>Lets take a look at what a shaman wants off contesteds:The Mallet off the 3-princes.Hurricanas Forged Bracers off HurricanasUhm, that's all I can think of, maybe some can help me out here on what else a Shaman would want off the contesteds.<hr></blockquote>Nope, you covered it!  I have the bracers and now the only thing that appeals to me is the mallet.  Sad isn't it?  <div></div>

[electricninjasex]

<blockquote><hr>AncientElster wrote:<div></div><p>Its stupid how the difficulty of every raid in this game is based almost entirely on your raid makeup and has absolutely nothing to do with the skill of the players outside of healers ability of being able to cure quickly.</p><hr></blockquote> You know what?  You're right.  Every mage should have giant heals and wear plate armor. Every templar should have giant nukes. Etc etc.  That way it's guaranteed that the same player count will always yield the same results.  That's what you want right?<div></div>

[dparker7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR>What does T8 gear have to do with EoF though? We're talking EoF, not the expansion after EoF. We'll worry about that expansion once EoF is cleared, but until then, it isn't on anybody's view screen to really care about it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, the proposal is for a new way of tiering raiding and raid gear.  If you believe the devs would put forth the effort to develop a new system for just one expansion, that seems rather naive to me.<BR>

[Ellestil]

<P>Bad idea. Although tiering raid zones with an expansion sounds like a raiders dream, it is a casuals nightmare. You used WoW as an example of how EQ2 should be raid/gear progression wise. I couldn't disagree more. In WoW, there is no way for a casual to compete with a HC raider. If they don't raid full time, they fall very far behind. There are many tiers of raids in WoW also, so when the expansion comes out, what do you think the new raids will be geared for? Those who did the old raids, hoop by hoop, and are ready for the next challenge. However, a casual raider or non-raider cannot even step into that zone. In fact, due to the raiders being so well equipped, most of the overland zones usually are geared to be more difficult as well, and in some cases even overland content becomes too difficult for the casuals ( I'm saying this can become the case as in EQ, WoW maybe not idk).</P> <P>The fact is, EQ2 is not a hard core MMORPG and doesn't want to be. It wants to be an everyman's game. Something for everyone and have a system that enables people with limited time to at least be able to hang with people that have tons of time. This is how it works now. A heavy raider can step into a raid zone like DT with fully fabled gear. At the same time, a casual raider in the same guild happens to have the time and shows up with either mastercrafted/legendary gear and AD3's. Is the casual player useless because he has no fabled/masters? No. Will he perform as well as a Fabled/Mastered player? No. But he can come, he's not useless, and can bring something to the raid. In WoW this is not the case. If you didn't jump through all the hoops you are SOL when it comes to raids or new raids. Totally new content in WoW is completely not experienced by their more casual players. And believe me, they gripe about it all the time. I think if EQ2 went down that path they would dwindle in active subscriptions to even less than what EQ has currently.</P> <P>People didn't buy this game to be hard core full time raiders that have to raid and jump through hoops all the time. The game was announced to be more of a middle ground game, less hard core, while still having some hard core activities if you wanted to pursue that. What your doing is asking them to totally change their original target audience (one which has grown, and grown with popularity as the game has aged).</P> <P>All that said I am not anti-hard core, or anti-raider. I am anti-extremism in this game. I like that they appeal to casual, solo, group, hard core, raiders, crafters, etc and strive to give each content while encouraging people to branch out and try new playstyles. So if a soloer came on here and posted that all the overland should be solo content, half the raid zones should be converted to solo zones, etc I would be opposed to that as well. Moderation in all things. If you want a hard core raid game that is designed to exclude all but the most time free players, you should realize that this game wasn't designed for that or that audience.</P> <P>Ellestil</P><p>Message Edited by Ellestil on <span class=date_text>08-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:11 PM</span>

[Fistantantilus]

well to my understanding so far (and yes I was lazy and skimmed through the posts) ppl want something like the planes of power progression in eq1.now do not get me wrong, PoP was one of my favorite expansions in all eq1 time but, that was the time when ppl started quitting eq1 as well. because after like 6 months in the expansion they could not progress anymore and because of the #$%$% backflagging.<div></div>

[Miroh]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gaellen wrote:You know what would completely rock the boat?  One of those 7 dollar adventure packs... with raids.  Just raids.  x2, x3, x4, even just a handful, but completely raid-centric.  Nobody who didn't want to raid, would have to buy it.  People who wanted more raids each week, would.  Wishful thinking? <div></div><hr></blockquote><b><i><font color="#ff0000">  I think I love you Feithen....Yeah a 7 dollar AP with aiming towards raiding would be awesome imo.  There is so much that wasn't added from Beta..All those giant doorways that take you no where, the Island in BM that you can see from DT etc etc, the outlining is there, just needs to be filled.  And people would buy it I am sure, alot of new guilds that are coming into the raiding scene, the ones that have been in it but not 100% there then the die hard raiders.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font></i></b> </div>

[Miroh]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>dparker713 wrote:<div></div> <p>Devs have already said that you'll need KoS raid gear to do the EoF encounters, but after that, there will be a new level cap and your tanks are going to need to start over.  Once you factor in the 18% loss in mit when the level cap gets raised, <font color="#ff0000"><b><i>their top tier fabled will again pale in comparision to t8 legendary and beginning fabled.</i></b></font>  Then, when t8 starts out, you'll be left with 1 instance to get upgrades and you'll need to farm the crap out of it.  Thats just not something Im interested in.</p><hr></blockquote>  <b><i><font color="#ff0000">Man we were replacing T6 top raiding gear with T7 treasured, what you talkin about.....Made you take a second look at things and wonder why you bothered towards the end.....</font></i></b></div><p>Message Edited by Miroh69 on <span class=date_text>08-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:36 AM</span>

[Slashflex]

<blockquote><hr>Ellestil wrote:<P>Bad idea. ><hr></blockquote>Bad reply.

[electricninjasex]

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><p>Somehow I imagine that things will change in the future and we'll see less orange mobs, because they won't have to be orange anymore to hit the tank.</p><hr></blockquote>Ah ah ah sounds like insider information lol

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ellestil wrote:<BR> <P>Stuff</P> <P> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Except because of the Tier System, everytime the level cap is raised everyone is put on equal footing again since Heroic legendendary is > Fabled from the Tier below it. So progression would only exist within a tier. New tiers wouldn't require Back Flagging or Re-gearing since everyone would start fresh again basically.<p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class=date_text>08-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:42 AM</span>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In WoW they have Tier'd Raid Zones. Each tier drops gear that is needed for the next zone. This progression is almost forced due to what I dub "Gear Check Mobs' and I think EQ2's raid game could benefit. Basically what I'm proposing is tier'd raid zones in difficulty.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, but will progression require the full set bonus?  =p<BR>