I'm now against Relic farming Labs, but not because I'm elitist

[whytakemine]

<DIV>We've got an alliance of smaller guilds together, and just starting to have some success at raiding.  Most the people have limited play times, so we end up raiding once a week consistently (on Sunday) and almost never farm relic.  I've never really cared that other people do, though, until yesterday.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We don't have a set raid schedule, but roughly it's Labs one week, Lyceum the next.  Yesterday it was Labs, and the lag was so bad it caused us to wipe at least twice and made all the encounters more difficult.  We wiped at the doom triad once because of the lag, and when we tried to revive about half the raid force locked up trying to reload the zone and had to /quit and relog.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There were also relic raids going on at the same time, and that I assume is why the lag was so bad.  I did notice the later in the evening it got, the more the lag cleared up.  We had lag problems last time we were in Labs as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand that SOE wants to make low end fabled gear available to everyone.  This post is not about changing that.  I just would like the lag problem addressed.  I can think of two possible solutions:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Adjust the server load so it can handle multiple raids going on at the same time</DIV> <DIV>2. Have a seperate relic farming instance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note that it's not an option for us to raid on a different day.  Sunday is the one day everyone can consistently attend.</DIV>

[Ratty31]

Why don't you take some time and think about how hard it is to distribute all that relic before the chest poofs with all that lag. Some people are so selfish I swear. Yeah you may have wiped but they may have have lost thier 237th medium hat.

[Ishbu]

<blockquote><hr>Ratty31 wrote:Why don't you take some time and think about how hard it is to distribute all that relic before the chest poofs with all that lag. Some people are so selfish I swear. Yeah you may have wiped but they may have have lost thier 237th medium hat.<hr></blockquote>QFE

[Riversideblues]

if you kill the names you could just call yourself raiders for real<div></div>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Riversideblues wrote:<BR>if you kill the names you could just call yourself raiders for real<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's the point, they were trying to.

[AegisCrown]

<div><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Riversideblues wrote:if you kill the names you could just call yourself raiders for real <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>That's the point, they were trying to.<hr></blockquote>/agreei think the relic drop should only have a chance to drop in named chests, would really cut down lag.  and make raiding the named even more appealing<b></b></div>

[Shizzirri]

I just wish sometimes it was tradeable so I could throw it up on the exchange and see if I could get five bucks for a piece.

[Killerbee3000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote:<BR> I just wish sometimes it was tradeable so I could throw it up on the exchange and see if I could get five bucks for a piece.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>i woudnt give you money for it, but i might be willing to hand you relic plate leg number 200 over in return for chain boots lol. </P> <P>but yes, relic should only drop off named mobs, not only to reduce the lag, but also to reduce the madness about the fabled tag on items in general.</P>

[Snarks]

<blockquote><hr>whytakemine wrote: <div> </div> <div>I understand that SOE wants to make low end fabled gear available to everyone.  </div><hr></blockquote>This single line makes me want to punch a hole through my monitor. But it cost me over a thousand dollars, so I will instead pretend I never saw this thread.<div></div>

[electricninjasex]

<blockquote><hr>snarkteeth wrote:<blockquote><hr>whytakemine wrote: <div> </div> <div>I understand that SOE wants to make low end fabled gear available to everyone.  </div><hr></blockquote>This single line makes me want to punch a hole through my monitor. But it cost me over a thousand dollars, so I will instead pretend I never saw this thread.<div></div><hr></blockquote>You were pretty calm when the OP proposed SOE give him a separate relic farming instance to solve his dilemma.

[Kaiser Sigma]

From what I understand the guy is just complaining about the lag other people cause because of the mass euphoria for farming relic, they were just trying to do Labs with nameds. But I guess most people see the word "relic" and automatically cry foul..like a reflex act.

[Ralyssand]

<DIV>Yeah some people didn't read two sentences (or maybe one in some cases) before hitting the reply button! Woot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The lag was really bad. Several times, the fights with named just "froze" and when it unfroze, half the raid was dead. On top of it, there's a problem in there where if you die and revive, you get stuck on the zone loading screen. At this point, the problem is raid-wide. We had 50% of our raid go LD and waited 15 mins for people to revive. It was ridiculous. Half the raid got stuck over and over at the zone loading screen and had to restart. This has happened 2/2 times now when we were fighting the Doom Triad. Its a logistical mess at this point. Maybe the latter problem is specifically related to the doom triad, i don't know. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Usually lag problems are a resource issue. It's a zone designed for x4 raids that can be brought up and run every 6 hours by 2 groups of people. And those groups of x2 people are not utilizing half the resources in the zone, so there should be no point in instantiating those resources if there is no intention to use them. It's a huge resource drain, and every time there are massive lag spikes like we encoutered, you have to wonder if those other instances which are holding x4 named scripts in memory in massive quantity but have no intention of ever being used, and are being brought up as frequently as every 6 hours by the same group, possibly more - are necessary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What Carbajal is saying has nothing to do with the casual players/small groups "farm rights". It has everything to do with making a less memory intensive instance for those 2 group farm raids if SOE really thinks it's appropriate to allow relic farming. Despite the big debate on whether it's intended that way or not (SOE's decision),  at least shift the resources so that people who are doing the named can DO the named in peace (as opposed to pieces). And if that isn't the problem -then please look into what IS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted, we may only be experiencing this during "peak hours" and one could argue that it's an acceptable consequence, but it's factual that loading an x4 raid zone with a dozen x4 raid encounters and scripts into memory at a high frequency (it will still be a high frequency when it's changed to 12 hr lockout), when there's no intention of utilizing those resources, is horribly inefficient.</DIV>

[Jigokusens]

<P>Well the lag is mainly about server resource allocation I would presume.</P> <P>It's very obvious on some nights (particularly weekends / Fri) when the resources are being taken up by 3-5 raid guilds and 2-3 relic runs on one zone.</P> <P>The motif for "relic" armor is very similar to EQ1 with Kael / HoTesting / NToV but the issues never occured mainly due to the fact all of that was considered "contested" and there were only so many mobs to go around. </P> <P>With the instancing of games like EQ2 these resources are becoming used up at an excessive rate due to lvl cap increase halt and more subscribers getting to these raiding lvls.</P> <P>Honestly, relic farming has had it's day already but it will get more and more out of hand as time goes on.</P>

[FuRiouSQ]

Dont forget the 15 20 groups running HoF.. <div></div>

[khufure]

You guys are complaining but there is no facts.  But you can get facts.  Did you check how many people were in labs during your trouble times?  Why not keep an accurate count.  This way you have real numbers that you can use to fix the problem.<div></div>

[etaipo]

<blockquote><hr>whytakemine wrote:<div>We've got an alliance of smaller guilds together, and just starting to have some success at raiding.  Most the people have limited play times, so we end up raiding once a week consistently (on Sunday) and almost never farm relic.  I've never really cared that other people do, though, until yesterday.</div> <div> </div> <div>We don't have a set raid schedule, but roughly it's Labs one week, Lyceum the next.  Yesterday it was Labs, and the lag was so bad it caused us to wipe at least twice and made all the encounters more difficult.  We wiped at the doom triad once because of the lag, and when we tried to revive about half the raid force locked up trying to reload the zone and had to /quit and relog.  </div> <div> </div> <div>There were also relic raids going on at the same time, and that I assume is why the lag was so bad.  I did notice the later in the evening it got, the more the lag cleared up.  We had lag problems last time we were in Labs as well.</div> <div> </div> <div><b>I understand that SOE wants to make low end fabled gear available to everyone</b>. <font color="#ff3300">How on Earth did you come to that 'understanding'? Its a raid, the gear is not supposed to be had by everyone... /guntohead</font> This post is not about changing that.  I just would like the lag problem addressed.  I can think of two possible solutions:</div> <div> </div> <div>1. Adjust the server load so it can handle multiple raids going on at the same time</div> <div><b>2. Have a seperate relic farming instance  </b><font color="#ff3300">Thats the funniest thing I've ever heard/read..../pulltrigger</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>Note that it's not an option for us to raid on a different day.  Sunday is the one day everyone can consistently attend.</div><hr></blockquote>They could always make relic only drop from mobs behind The Slavering Alzid. That would surely reduce the lag.  <div></div>

[thorvang]

they also could turn lab and all other zones into static dungeons, so the relic farmers need to compete.

[whytakemine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> etaipo wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> whytakemine wrote:<BR> <DIV> we end up raiding once a week...almost <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>never farm relic</FONT></STRONG>.  I've never really cared that <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>other</FONT></STRONG> people do, though, until yesterday.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There were also relic raids going on at the same time, and that I assume is why the lag was so bad.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just would like the lag problem addressed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow, zero reading comprehension by half the posters.  I've reduced my post to four sentences.  Maybe try reading them three or four times until you get what I'm saying.  You would think the title of the thread would at least be a clue.  </P> <P>I've personally farmed relic exactly twice that I can think of.  Once when people first started doing it as a novelty, and once with 9 other people just to see how few people we could do it with.  I'm sure we could do it with even less if we had a better geared tank.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> etaipo wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> whytakemine wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><B>I understand that SOE wants to make low end fabled gear available to everyone</B>. <FONT color=#ff3300>How on Earth did you come to that 'understanding'? Its a raid, the gear is not supposed to be had by everyone... /guntohead</FONT> <FONT color=#ffff00>Maybe I was misinformed, but I read in another post that the devs stated they had no intention of chaning how relic drops.  From this I inferred that SOE wants to allow everyone access to fabled. SOE's decision, not mine.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Adjust the server load so it can handle multiple raids going on at the same time</DIV> <DIV><B>2. Have a seperate relic farming instance  </B><FONT color=#ff3300>Thats the funniest thing I've ever heard/read..../pulltrigger</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00> How would it be different than now, except people killing the nameds wouldn't have to deal with lag induced by relic raids?</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Edited to make it even MORE clear.</P><p>Message Edited by whytakemine on <span class=date_text>08-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:36 PM</span>

[whytakemine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> khufure wrote:<BR>You guys are complaining but there is no facts.  But you can get facts.  Did you check how many people were in labs during your trouble times?  Why not keep an accurate count.  This way you have real numbers that you can use to fix the problem.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>SOE could track this better than we can.  All they need to do is look at server resource usage during peak times and see what is causing the lag.  It would take one person with access to the servers about 15 minutes to do.</P> <P>Good point though, it's entirely possible the lag is caused by something else.  I think overloading the zone is the most likely culprit, but it doesn't mean I'm right.</P>

[whytakemine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ralyssand wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What Carbajal is saying has nothing to do with the casual players/small groups "farm rights". It has everything to do with making a less memory intensive instance for those 2 group farm raids if SOE really thinks it's appropriate to allow relic farming. Despite the big debate on whether it's intended that way or not (SOE's decision),  at least shift the resources so that people who are doing the named can DO the named in peace (as opposed to pieces). And if that isn't the problem -then please look into what IS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank you Raly, for explaining it more succinctly than I did.<BR></P>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thorvang wrote:<BR>they also could turn lab and all other zones into static dungeons, so the relic farmers need to compete.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>lol that's a funny thought... contested trash mobs!

[etaipo]

<blockquote><hr>whytakemine wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Ralyssand wrote: <div> </div> <div>What Carbajal is saying has nothing to do with the casual players/small groups "farm rights". It has everything to do with making a less memory intensive instance for those 2 group farm raids if SOE really thinks it's appropriate to allow relic farming. Despite the big debate on whether it's intended that way or not (SOE's decision),  at least shift the resources so that people who are doing the named can DO the named in peace (as opposed to pieces). And if that isn't the problem -then please look into what IS.</div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Thank you Raly, for explaining it more succinctly than I did.</p><hr></blockquote>It has nothing to do with shifting resources or any of that stuff. It has to do with people exploiting the zone lockout timer.  Also, there is nothing wrong with my 'reading comprehension.'  You want changes made so you can clear a zone with greater ease.  However, you gave really bad examples, such as a farming instance.  Just because I shoot holes in your post doesn't mean I don't agree with you. And if you and your alliance are managing one raid per week, I doubt anyone is thinking you are an 'elitest.'  <div></div>

[MexStrat]

<div><blockquote><hr>thorvang wrote:they also could turn lab and all other zones into static dungeons, so the relic farmers need to compete.<hr></blockquote>And you think labs is a lagfest now.  imagine what it would be if they implemented this.   [Removed for Content]</div>

[whytakemine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> etaipo wrote:<BR><BR>It has nothing to do with shifting resources or any of that stuff. It has to do with people exploiting the zone lockout timer.  Also, there is nothing wrong with my 'reading comprehension.'  You want changes made so you can clear a zone with greater ease.  However, you gave really bad examples, such as a farming instance.  Just because I shoot holes in your post doesn't mean I don't agree with you. And if you and your alliance are managing one raid per week, I doubt anyone is thinking you are an 'elitest.'  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I do get the feeling we are mostly in agreement, just not communicating here.  I'll try once more.</P> <P>1.  Dev's apparently don't consider relic farming an exploit.  It's obviously a mechanic they intend to keep.</P> <P>2.  I don't want mobs made easier, I don't want anything about the zone changed EXCEPT the lag problem due to too many people in there at once.  </P> <P>3.  If SOE intends to keep relic farming, why not put it in a seperate instance so people trying to actually clear Labs aren't affected?  Or devote more server resources or something.  I don't care what they do to fix it, I would just like it if our wipes are caused because our strategy is bad or because we aren't executing it properly, not because of something beyond our control.  </P> <P><BR>4.  My point was that we are NOT elite, and I still would like something done about relic farming.  Most of the relic farming posts on the board are the hard core elite "Stop relic farming!" and the super casual pickup group "I want my fabled too!".  The reason I titled it the way I did was to make it clear that this wasn't another such post.</P> <P>I also fail to see why everyone is so against a relic farming instance.  That is exactly what we have right now, except the relic farming "instance" happens to be called the Labs, and they share it with people trying to raid for real.  </P>

[terahak]

haha I agree with thorvang <div></div>

[Ralyssand]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>etaipo wrote:<BR></P> <P>It has nothing to do with shifting resources or any of that stuff. It has to do with people exploiting the zone lockout timer.  Also, there is nothing wrong with my 'reading comprehension.'  You want changes made so you can clear a zone with greater ease. </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT face="Tms Rmn" size=2> <P>No, he wants the lag problem addressed. I believe he used the words:</P> <P align=justify>"I just would like the lag problem addressed"</P></FONT><FONT face=Helv size=2> <P align=justify>It's a comprehension issue.</P> <P>Assumption: Sony does not want to change the relic farm rate and the lockout game mechanics are intended as is (minus the 12 hr lockout change coming in the next update).</P> <P>This assumption may or may not be true. Only SOE knows that. For purposes of relevant and useful discussion, we are assuming that this IS true and WILL CONTINUE holding true. This is what delineates THIS thread from the OTHER thread for which there are 3 hundred replies.</P> <P>What Carb is saying is:</P> <P>Given that this assumption is true and Sony does not want to change game mechanics/relic farming rate,, there is very valid playability issue: Lag (possibly caused by too many instances that may be memory intensive).</P> <P>WITHOUT breaking the existing game mechanics or relic farming rate, how do we fix the lag issue?</P> <P>It has nothing to do with whether he agrees or disagrees with the game mechanics and relic farming rate, for which you are trying to snuff him for. Your response, "stop the lockout timer exploitation" goes completely against the assumption we're trying to work with here (that it is a valid game mechanic).</P> <P>You both want the same thing: to reduce the lag in Labs to a playable level.</P> <P>You're saying "change the lockout timer and where the relic drops so it can't be farmed as much, to fix the lag"</P> <P>He's saying "Well, if we can't change lockout timers or the relic farm rate, we can do X, Y, Z to fix the lag problem."</P></FONT>