Lockouts on Relic dropping zones [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

TwistedFaith

07-26-2006, 02:59 PM

Why would anyone want to stop people farming relic, have you ANY idea how popular this is for casual players?I'm in a guild that is starting to raid t7, we are running trash runs all week and the turnout for these has been AMAZING! On Saturday we take out as many names as we can and have a week's break from raiding, so we can work on quests. Why the hell would SOE suddenly decide to impose a lockout, check your lvl 60-69 channel people want to farm the labs, it's a awesome zone for casual players who arnt in raiding guilds.As for the other guy complaining about the lag due to people being in the labs I have no idea how to respond to that.SOE arnt stupid they are not going to destroy one of the most succesful aspects of this expansion pack, damm if anything i'd be amazed if they didnt add more raid zones like the labs.I dont know it seems to me like people are desperate to feel superior to other players in this game, it's all too amusing.<p>Message Edited by valleyboy1 on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:03 AM</span><p>Message Edited by valleyboy1 on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:05 AM</span>

Miroh

07-26-2006, 03:07 PM

<b><i><font color="#ff0000">You can be a casual player and still do the zones as they were really intended. And if you don't want to then you are lazy and don't deserve the armo</font></i><i><font color="#ff0000">r. Watch, if they ever do make it drop off named I garuntee you most of these people will kill named.....they are just too lazy and they want an easy way to get the fabled tag....bottom line. And if you are casual and barely play....what good is fabled gear gonna do you anyways.....</font></i></b><div></div>

Keldo

07-26-2006, 03:17 PM

<div></div>cheldrak should require 100% rift complete to access as welledit: and make that retroactive just to be fair, maybe take the lewtz too<div></div><p>Message Edited by Keldoth on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:19 AM</span>

TwistedFaith

07-26-2006, 03:25 PM

<blockquote><hr>Miroh69 wrote: <b><i><font color="#ff0000">You can be a casual player and still do the zones as they were really intended. And if you don't want to then you are lazy and don't deserve the armo</font></i><i><font color="#ff0000">r. Watch, if they ever do make it drop off named I garuntee you most of these people will kill named.....they are just too lazy and they want an easy way to get the fabled tag....bottom line. And if you are casual and barely play....what good is fabled gear gonna do you anyways.....</font></i></b><div></div><hr></blockquote>Please, this is a game not a job, the lab is one zone in tier 7 there are PLENTY of other zones to run around in if you really want to feel special.Like I said the popularity of the lab trash runs show's exactly what type of zone suits the vast majority of players. I would love to see some stats on the lab zone, in terms of number of players who SOE wouldnt consider 'hardcore' entering etc.It's totaly nieve to expect SOE to change this, in doing so they take away what is one of the most popular things to do at 70 if your not in a raiding guild.

Yunga_511

07-26-2006, 03:54 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emerix wrote:<BR> Thats one of the crappiest attitudes . Go farm Chel' Drak if you oh so great and bored . Relic stuff sucks anyway but its the only stuff normal casual players can get . Just because you and your oh so great raid guild can get all they want quite easily it doesnt mean the casual gamers who dont have all time of the world shouldnt get some nice stuff .<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Define (Casual Time)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It takes us to Fully Clear Lab exactly 1.5 hours, I also know other guilds clear it in under that...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your definition of casual time is under 1.5 hours, then Deathtoll is a nogo...least 2.5+ hours</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So Whats Fabled Armour good for?.....you do Heroic stuff with Legendary which is Easier to Obtain...you don't wana raid tho you want to receive fabled armour...hmm...Does Not Compute...ERROR /blowup</DIV><SPAN class=time_text> <P></P> <HR> Please, this is a game not a job, the lab is one zone in tier 7 there are PLENTY of other zones to run around in if you really want to feel special.<BR> <HR> No One ever said its a job, Thats YOUR opinion....</SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <SPAN class=date_text>07-26-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>04:58 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:59 AM</span>

vinterskugge

07-26-2006, 04:13 PM

<DIV>If relic sucks so much how come some of it is the absolute best some classes can get for those slot?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you don't have all the time in the world, a lockout shouldn't bother you.</DIV>

Miroh

07-26-2006, 04:16 PM

<div> <font color="#ff0000"><b><i> Either way....please change it so you have a lockout and that it only drops of named mobs within the zone so people can actually do the whole zones the way they were intended instead of using the 6 hour failure timer as a means to get more loot. P.S. There are more zones that drop relic other than Labs...just thought I would let you know Valleyboy1</i></b></font></div>

TwistedFaith

07-26-2006, 04:18 PM

<blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<DIV>If relic sucks so much how come some of it is the absolute best some classes can get for those slot?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>And if you don't have all the time in the world, a lockout shouldn't bother you.</DIV><hr></blockquote>When did I say relic sucks? sorry dont remember writing that, wanna quote it?

TwistedFaith

07-26-2006, 04:20 PM

<blockquote><hr>Miroh69 wrote:<div> <font color="#ff0000"><b><i> Either way....please change it so you have a lockout and that it only drops of named mobs within the zone so people can actually do the whole zones the way they were intended instead of using the 6 hour failure timer as a means to get more loot. P.S. There are more zones that drop relic other than Labs...just thought I would let you know Valleyboy1</i></b></font></div><hr></blockquote>Most really annoy you huh, seeing 'noobs' running around in fabled lol.Still cant understand why this would bother anyone but each to their own I guess lol.

TwistedFaith

07-26-2006, 04:20 PM

<blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote:<DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Emerix wrote:<BR>Thats one of the crappiest attitudes . Go farm Chel' Drak if you oh so great and bored . Relic stuff sucks anyway but its the only stuff normal casual players can get . Just because you and your oh so great raid guild can get all they want quite easily it doesnt mean the casual gamers who dont have all time of the world shouldnt get some nice stuff .<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Define (Casual Time)...</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>It takes us to Fully Clear Lab exactly 1.5 hours, I also know other guilds clear it in under that...</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>If your definition of casual time is under 1.5 hours, then Deathtoll is a nogo...least 2.5+ hours</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>So Whats Fabled Armour good for?.....you do Heroic stuff with Legendary which is Easier to Obtain...you don't wana raid tho you want to receive fabled armour...hmm...Does Not Compute...ERROR /blowup</DIV><SPAN class=time_text><P></P><HR>Please, this is a game not a job, the lab is one zone in tier 7 there are PLENTY of other zones to run around in if you really want to feel special.<BR><HR>No One ever said its a job, Thats YOUR opinion....</SPAN><P>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <SPAN class=date_text>07-26-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>04:58 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:59 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Conviction have never done trash runs huh Quill lol, right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

vinterskugge

07-26-2006, 04:21 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> valleyboy1 wrote:<BR><BR><BR>When did I say relic sucks? sorry dont remember writing that, wanna quote it?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Shut up, I wasn't even talking to you.

TwistedFaith

07-26-2006, 04:25 PM

<blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE> <HR>valleyboy1 wrote:<BR><BR><BR>When did I say relic sucks? sorry dont remember writing that, wanna quote it?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Shut up, I wasn't even talking to you.<hr></blockquote>Easy there tiger

Yunga_511

07-26-2006, 04:43 PM

<DIV>What I'am getting at is why do you **NEED** to have *Relic* armour when you don't raid?</DIV>

MeridianR

07-26-2006, 05:19 PM

There is no way that you can change stats on relic now, just too far gone at this point. When I see Raider X from n00b guild Y have full left side fabled due to numerous relic runs, yet wiping to a field mob 15 times in a row, that at least makes me feel better somewhat.As for DT access being changed....I am all for 50%, but anything more and backflagging is a pain in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...not because it's hard, but mainly because you need to wait about a week to get that backflagging complete for every person (due to Ascent lockouts).Here is hoping that EoF Armor sets have a nice progression to them, so while everyone might be able to get Tier1 sets...Tier2+ sets (if this is even the way they are going) have a unique look, and are considerably tougher to get.<div></div>

TwistedFaith

07-26-2006, 05:19 PM

<blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote:<DIV>What I'am getting at is why do you **NEED** to have *Relic* armour when you don't raid?</DIV><hr></blockquote>what i'm getting at is why do you **NEED** to get the lab timer nerfed when your guild has finished taking advantage of it.

MeridianR

07-26-2006, 05:22 PM

<div></div>Simple solution though to relic farming....have the pieces drop off of trash, but then each named in a relic dropping zone drops a special componant that is needed to craft them. There farm trash all you want, but kill a named to complete the relic <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />...and before someone whines about "Yeah nerf it after you farmed it", take a look at my eq2players, there isnt a piece of relic on me....and I have had 1 piece (gloves) since I started raiding T7<p>Message Edited by MeridianR on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:23 AM</span>

Yunga_511

07-26-2006, 05:34 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> valleyboy1 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yunga_511 wrote:<BR> <DIV>What I'am getting at is why do you **NEED** to have *Relic* armour when you don't raid?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>what i'm getting at is why do you **NEED** to get the lab timer nerfed when your guild has finished taking advantage of it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Your trying to Cancel out my Question with another question....[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]......WANA TALK ABOUT TAKING ADVANTAGE?!?</P> <P> </P> <P>When this all Started THERE WAS NO LOCKOUT TIMER......You could zone in, get 5 relics, zone out then come back in.....then Devs Depoped the zone on EVERY server, Isnt that taking advantage? thats more than whats done today</P> <P> </P> <P>Reason i dont like this is cause there is already X amount of guilds doing the zone as intended, then another bunch of relic farmers....it LAGS like hell..what i dont get is why those people cant grp up into a full raid and do the zone As intended, IT TAKES 1.5 hours, if u dont have that long to play EQ2...then i dunno</P><p>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:37 AM</span>

TwistedFaith

07-26-2006, 05:37 PM

<blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>valleyboy1 wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Yunga_511 wrote:<DIV>What I'am getting at is why do you **NEED** to have *Relic* armour when you don't raid?</DIV><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>what i'm getting at is why do you **NEED** to get the lab timer nerfed when your guild has finished taking advantage of it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your trying to Cancel out my Question with another question....[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]......WANA TALK ABOUT TAKING ADVANTAGE?!?</P><P> </P><P>When this all Started THERE WAS NO LOCKOUT TIMER......You could zone in, get 5 relics, zone out then come back in.....then Devs Depoped the zone on EVERY server, Isnt that taking advantage? thats more than whats done today</P><hr></blockquote>So again if the developers put a stop to that, why are people like you still asking for the timer to be nerfed?Has conviction ever run trash runs in the labs? More than 1 a week? Ever been on a pickup raid for trash runs?And it may take you 1.5hrs to complete the whole zone, but did it take you 1.5hrs on your first try, or 2nd etc? Or did you wait till you had your MT and whoever else kitted out in relic before going all the way through?If it's lagging due to trash runs then the answer is to fix the lag problem, the solution isnt to increase the lockout timer.<p>Message Edited by valleyboy1 on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:40 AM</span>

Yunga_511

07-26-2006, 05:43 PM

scared of the 6day lockout?

Pins

07-26-2006, 05:44 PM

Here's an analogy why fabled drops need to be re-adjusted:In Final Fantasy 7 there's these hard monsters(Called Weapons) that you can't destroy without having the best stuff in the game. For example, Knights of the Round Summon Materia. This item was very difficult to obtain, and took a lot of time invested. Now, you could go and beat the Weapons without it, but it would be very very difficult, compared to if you have a Knights of the Round Summon Materia. Now, if you took the time and hard work to obtain this Materia, you could relatively easily beat the Weapons. Of course, you don't need this Materia to beat the game, since the Weapons were entirely optional, while still part of the storylin they just weren't the main thing.This is the start to my comparison, now let's apply this logic to Raiding in EQ2. In raiding you start off with legendary-heroic dopped gear to fight the named the first times, well either that or in last tier's Fabled(which you can do now, none of this T5 fabled is weak-crap bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]). So you get yourself a team together to go raid, but raiding is optional in this game, you don't need fabled to do it, nor do you need fabled to take on the group/solo stuff that is considered the "main" game. Now to beat the "main" game you don't need fabled, nor do you need it to beat most of raid encounters. However with fabled, the "main" game becomes a total joke, whereas raid encounters are still hard even with fabled gear, although they are not as hard as if you had legendary/last tier's fabled.Think about it, this is why relic is breaking progression. At least, we can hope that is, the Developers have learned from this mistake, and will fix it in Tier 8(70-80). If they do, this will be great for the game, if they don't. Well, I dunno then, but that's 2 expansions away(the one after EoF should be 70-80, otherwise you'd see a vast amount of people quitting).

TwistedFaith

07-26-2006, 05:44 PM

<blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote:scared of the 6day lockout?<hr></blockquote>lol just as I thought

Yunga_511

07-26-2006, 05:48 PM

<DIV>Just Mayaswell do the whole zone.....you would get more Loot Better than Relic anyway :smileywink:</DIV>

MeridianR

07-26-2006, 05:55 PM

Man I loved FF7.....easily one of the top 3 console RPG's ever.<div></div>

Pins

07-26-2006, 06:03 PM

<blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:Man I loved FF7.....easily one of the top 3 console RPG's ever.<div></div><hr></blockquote>That's why I use it. I'm sure a lot of people loved the game, or at least know of the game. Thus the concept is very easy to get across to people using the FF7-analogy.

Yunga_511

07-26-2006, 06:03 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>valleyboy1 wrote:</P> <P>Conviction have never done trash runs huh Quill lol, right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> When i was in Lords of Chaos thats almost all we did....another reason why i left them</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

Haapy

07-26-2006, 06:06 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Miroh69 wrote: <b><i><font color="#ff0000">You can be a casual player and still do the zones as they were really intended. And if you don't want to then you are lazy and don't deserve the armo</font></i><i><font color="#ff0000">r. Watch, if they ever do make it drop off named I garuntee you most of these people will kill named.....they are just too lazy and they want an easy way to get the fabled tag....bottom line. And if you are casual and barely play....what good is fabled gear gonna do you anyways.....</font></i></b><div></div><hr></blockquote>Not really. For casuals there are no set raid days, so if they cannot make it today, they can always try tomorrow on the trash run. With lockout timers in place that would not be possible, as most people would be too staggered to form a team that can do a farm run. Also lets face it, there are only 3 people that run those raids on our server, with about 8 or so core people attending, the rest are pickups. If that core is anavailable, no run would really be possible. The only casual people that could do it would be those in a large guild that runs a pre-set raid schedule.As far as laziness goes. I find it hard to believe that people running Labs in a pickup environment, spending 2-3 hrs a night for weeks before getting even one piece could be called lazy. A fresh recruit to a raiding guild would probably do FAR less to get a fabled piece than a lot of people that farm Labs. Putting in major time on boring fights against boring mobs, while trying to tune out some tools in a raid chat and wiping a few times to some fools that cannot pay attention hardly constitutes as "easy way" to get the fabled tag.And no, I dont think that SoE will change the drop on relic armor, it will continue to drop from trash, just like the armor quest pieces did in eq1. And just like here, people used to complain about casuals getting together to farm it. SoE already looked into this issue when relic farming was abused, and DID put in timers on zone-in. I very much doubt they will re-visit this again.People that "barely" play dont get relics, for that you need to invest some time in leveling and farming, and there are plenty of valid reasons to have relic gear even for a group content, like Nizara or solo monk trials.</div>

Pins

07-26-2006, 06:09 PM

But, then you're not casual if you're doing it daily for 2-3 hours a day. This is not casual, this is called non-raider syndrome. They want fabled-quality gear, but don't want to deal with raiding, so they kill trash(even though it's with a raid, it's not a real raid). I mean seriously, how can you call yourself casual if you're doing trash runs every day for 2-3 hours? I mean, that makes no sense at all. That's not casual anymore.As for the solution, setup a website, get peopel to sign up for a day to run through it! People sign up, you go and run through it and pickup people from 60-69 to fill in the last few slots that you have on that day. *gasp*

Yunga_511

07-26-2006, 06:13 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR>But, then you're not casual if you're doing it daily for 2-3 hours a day. This is not casual, this is called non-raider syndrome. They want fabled-quality gear, but don't want to deal with raiding, so they kill trash(even though it's with a raid, it's not a real raid). I mean seriously, how can you call yourself casual if you're doing trash runs every day for 2-3 hours? I mean, that makes no sense at all. That's not casual anymore.<BR><BR>As for the solution, setup a website, get peopel to sign up for a day to run through it! People sign up, you go and run through it and pickup people from 60-69 to fill in the last few slots that you have on that day. *gasp*<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>But that takes time and effort....how can they do it?

Noaani

07-26-2006, 06:20 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yunga_511 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Just Mayaswell do the whole zone.....you would get more Loot Better than Relic anyway :smileywink:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Have to agree here. I am in a guid that does a labs raid every week. If we have the numbers on to kill the first name (The Slavering Alzid), we do, then we kill the next two names (Doomwhatever and Pardus Predd), because, put simply, the loot off of those 3 mobs is better than a weeks worth of labs trash runs (most of the time). My inquisitor has a single piece of relic, the bracers, which are backup for him because the inquisitor/Shadowknight bracers i got for one of the names there (although they also drop off trash, unfortunatly) are better.</P> <P>Personally, instead of changing the lockout on labs (and all the other zones that drop relic, otherwise whats the point?) I think they should make the loot that drops off harder mobs (or mobs that shouyld be harder) better. As an example, add the effect from the class relic to all the chests and pants that drop in labs (kinda difficult to add class specific effects to gear that is not so class specific, but there are ways). Also, DT loot needs a HUGH boost, but thats the topic of many other threads. Basically, I think they should make it so those with relic still have there fabled tag, are still able to farm it twice a day, if they feel like wasting there time, but whenever they see a hardcore raider, and inspect them, they see gear with the same effects as what they are wearing, but with much better stats, and in some cases, other effects as well.<BR></P> <P>And before someone comes at me saying I am all elitist or whatever, my guild, as i said, does a labs raid weekly, we kill what we can, have made it up to Vyemm, but not yet killed him. We have kill the Essence of Fear in Lyceum, havn't ever been to HoS, our only 2 members with access to AoA x4 just left the guild, so we need to do that all again, and we are about 1000 dps short of being able to kill Harla Dar (may actually get it if we have 24 log on at the same time though...). We are by no means hard core raiders.</P> <P>Also, how long would it take a group of 24 players to get fully fabled doing just labs trash runs? if you only go up to the first names, i would say you would average maybe one relic a run, so with 24 people to get 7 armor slots filled, thats 168 runs through labs (I am aware that you can clear the entier zone except for the names, but from what i have heard its not always an easy thing to pull off). And after that you still have 9 slots on those 24 people to fill cause they have crap from group instances in them still... Oh god, i hope SoE dont add relic weapons and jewelery in EoF :smileysad:</P>

TwistedFaith

07-26-2006, 06:24 PM

<blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote:<DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE><P></P><HR><P>valleyboy1 wrote:</P><P>Conviction have never done trash runs huh Quill lol, right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P><P></P><HR>When i was in Lords of Chaos thats almost all we did....another reason why i left them</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><hr></blockquote>Which has nothing to do with the topic lol.

MeridianR

07-26-2006, 06:26 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>valleyboy1 wrote:</p><p>Conviction have never done trash runs huh Quill lol, right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p></p><hr>When i was in Lords of Chaos thats almost all we did....another reason why i left them</blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>Which has nothing to do with the topic lol.<hr></blockquote>I have never, ever done a trash run.....does that make me special?</div>

Haapy

07-26-2006, 06:30 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote:<div>What I'am getting at is why do you **NEED** to have *Relic* armour when you don't raid?</div><hr></blockquote>Well, lets see:1.Nizara, and hopefully more instances like that in the future. While not exactly a requirement by any means, having relic armor allowes for better flexibility with what classes you take there.2. Monk trials. Try doing 3rd+ floor solo run with defiler. Hell, even with conj it is very difficult. Having relic armor is most certanly a requirement for some classes.3. Solo farming SoS/PoA for plat and masters.4. Being in a casual guidl that raids on occasion, it might be difficult to fill slots, so with relic those guilds might be able to make an attempt with less people. If you check to see who is coming to these trash runs, you will notice that most of people are from guilds like these. Just because people are doing trash runs does not mean they dont want to raid, just means that their guilds do not have the resources to take on the full zone yet, and relic armor goes a long way to help those guilds.</div>

Pins

07-26-2006, 06:38 PM

<blockquote><hr>Haapy wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote:<div>What I'am getting at is why do you **NEED** to have *Relic* armour when you don't raid?</div><hr></blockquote>Well, lets see:1.Nizara, and hopefully more instances like that in the future. While not exactly a requirement by any means, having relic armor allowes for better flexibility with what classes you take there.2. Monk trials. Try doing 3rd+ floor solo run with defiler. Hell, even with conj it is very difficult. Having relic armor is most certanly a requirement for some classes.3. Solo farming SoS/PoA for plat and masters.4. Being in a casual guidl that raids on occasion, it might be difficult to fill slots, so with relic those guilds might be able to make an attempt with less people. If you check to see who is coming to these trash runs, you will notice that most of people are from guilds like these. Just because people are doing trash runs does not mean they dont want to raid, just means that their guilds do not have the resources to take on the full zone yet, and relic armor goes a long way to help those guilds.</div><hr></blockquote>1. Nizara can probably be done with a fully legendary equipped tank if you know what you're doing.2. Conjurors shouldn't be getting hit so why would they need relic? All they need is high quality gear that doens't suck balls. As for defilers, well you're not all supposed to be able to beat the trials, so if you fail, oh well then you should go and do real raids, not trash raids, and get better gear.3. Again, with the right class, you don't need relic to solo farm there, in fact you honestly shouldn't be solo farming there anyway. Get a healer friend, and duo everything.4. You have your old tier options which drop gear that is about the same as legendary but you get the excitement of a raid. Plus now they're adding more options for those less groups of people who can't field a full x4 raid. Then again, nothing(except for the Matron, and Chel'Drak), requires more than 3 groups to beat if you're the best you can be at your classes. And if people can come together to do a trash raid, why can't they come together some night once a week to do a real raid instead? Organize it, get a forum/website/etc. on it, and get people to go sign up. Advertise it a few days in advance. You'll get people to come to it. There are many pickup raids out there that do this already on most servers.Honestly, you act like it's impossible to get a full x4 raid together to kill stuff, yet you're raiding trash, when the named is right there waiting to be killed!

Ishbu

07-26-2006, 06:38 PM

This thread is funny for 2 reasons.The first is that some fool on the first page honestly thought that EC just finished farming relica and that NOW they want it nerfed. There person obviously needs to get a clue.The second reason is that person said go farm chel'drak. Do they realize chel'drak's whole zone takes like 15minutes and then your locked out for 5 days? How the hell are you supposed to farm that? Most of that loot isnt good enough to be worth the effort of farming anyways and that would turn the encounter from fun to boring real fast too. To both of those posters whomever they were....lol because your both dumb.

Shizzirri

07-26-2006, 06:48 PM

It probably should be nerfed especially with the changes coming in LU26 with those "practice raids" dropping "legendary" armor molds. Any casual guild with an ounce of common sense could go why kill the practice stuff for legendary when still we can get better drops farming trash mobs in lab. I've always had the view that it should only drop off named and trash in deathtoll but nonetheless that hasn't stopped me from farming it for a week 3x a day at the beginning of the expansion. But still there's better armor out there than relic, at least in my opinion, I still have my but I rarely use it other than the gloves/wrists.

Haapy

07-26-2006, 07:03 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:But, then you're not casual if you're doing it daily for 2-3 hours a day. This is not casual, this is called non-raider syndrome. They want fabled-quality gear, but don't want to deal with raiding, so they kill trash(even though it's with a raid, it's not a real raid). I mean seriously, how can you call yourself casual if you're doing trash runs every day for 2-3 hours? I mean, that makes no sense at all. That's not casual anymore.As for the solution, setup a website, get peopel to sign up for a day to run through it! People sign up, you go and run through it and pickup people from 60-69 to fill in the last few slots that you have on that day. *gasp*<hr></blockquote>I am sorry, I think I worded it wrong. I was just tryin to show amount of effort that some people have put in for their relic pieces. It has been made seem in this thread that all you have to do is to zone in and you get a piece. In actuality, the true casual players probably do at most 1-2 runs per week, and dont see a piece in months. Also, a "casual" playstyle that I refer to means that a person does not have a set schedule that he/she is online or amount of time set aside per session. Even at 3 hrs online every day a person would not be able to do much if those times vary greatly or fall mostly in 11pm pst -2 am pst time slot with +/- 2 hr variation (just an example).There are already schedules for pickups on some server boards, announcements, etc. They dont really help to those that cannot be sure they have the time to commit during that day. What you are proposing though is quite similar to all those trash runs, as the core 10 people are usually the same, with the rest being "filled up" with pickups from the 60-69 channel.</div>

Pins

07-26-2006, 07:10 PM

So, why do these people who don't invest in static times to playing the game need the loot if they don't play very much? I mean, I'm completely confused why you even need the loot if you don't play the game very much, if at all. It makes no sense. You don't "need" it, you want it. But in the end, you aren't willing to put forth the effort required to get it. This is why people are upset about relic. Become any person who can zone in with 2 or so groups can clear the trash and end up with some fabled gear. This destroyed item progression as has been stated on MANY MANY thread. Try reading a few of them.I just don't see why people should get fabled gear if they aren't willing to invest time to the game.

Haapy

07-26-2006, 07:16 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:But, then you're not casual if you're doing it daily for 2-3 hours a day. This is not casual, this is called non-raider syndrome. They want fabled-quality gear, but don't want to deal with raiding, so they kill trash(even though it's with a raid, it's not a real raid). I mean seriously, how can you call yourself casual if you're doing trash runs every day for 2-3 hours? I mean, that makes no sense at all. That's not casual anymore.As for the solution, setup a website, get peopel to sign up for a day to run through it! People sign up, you go and run through it and pickup people from 60-69 to fill in the last few slots that you have on that day. *gasp*<hr></blockquote>But that takes time and effort....how can they do it?<hr></blockquote>And a clear schedule of playtime more than 24 hrs in advance...</div>

07-26-2006, 07:20 PM

<DIV>Well, lets see:<BR><BR>1.Nizara, and hopefully more instances like that in the future. While not exactly a requirement by any means, having relic armor allowes for better flexibility with what classes you take there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nizara isn't truly meant for the casuals. It is the T7 version of the Icy Digs instance (T5), which contained multiple x2 mobs to be killed with one group. So does Nizara (not labeled x2 but multiple triple ups will pretty much account for a x2 mob).</DIV> <DIV><BR>2. Monk trials. Try doing 3rd+ floor solo run with defiler. Hell, even with conj it is very difficult. Having relic armor is most certanly a requirement for some classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As if one or two pieces of fabled suddenly makes a zone possible? Even if it does, for classes that can't do the solo trials, SoE implemented GROUP trials. They did not intend for you to farm relic to do the solo instance, they wanted you to do the group version (that gives more pebbles too btw).</DIV> <DIV><BR>3. Solo farming SoS/PoA for plat and masters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You need fabled to do that? Come on don't make me laugh. Those classes that can actually do this (and they are quite select) can do this just as well with treasured as with fabled gear. Those that can not do this, will not be able to do so with relic or any kind of fabled whatsoever, it's either because they suck, or they are one of the classes that just can't do this no matter what.</DIV> <DIV><BR>4. Being in a casual guild that raids on occasion, it might be difficult to fill slots, so with relic those guilds might be able to make an attempt with less people. If you check to see who is coming to these trash runs, you will notice that most of people are from guilds like these. Just because people are doing trash runs does not mean they dont want to raid, just means that their guilds do not have the resources to take on the full zone yet, and relic armor goes a long way to help those guilds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is why they designed x2 !! raid zones! Roost, the crab, AoA x2, half of temple of scale and without doubt, more to come with EoF. x4 zones are there to be completed with 24 (or close to 24). Farming just the easy stuff is no excuse, since there are PLENTY other raids you can do and that ARE intended for your group's size. Ever tried T6 zones? They might be intended for 24 lvl60 players, but since you are not it would be more then fair to say 12-18 people can do it no?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You seem to not be able to understand that you're doing something that the game didn't intend you to do. Even though the game allows you to do it on a frequent basis, doesn't mean it is right to do it. As someone said, last time this happened GM's on all servers depopped the entire zone for the exact same reason. If this doesn't tell you that it is wrong to farm relic like this I don't know what will.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know what I think, you're just scared as [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] as to lose your easy way to some of the best loot in game. That's why you're only doing labs, because it's a fast and easy way to good loot. You don't go to any x2 zone because hey, labs is much better loot, even though we're not doing the zone as intended - right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And before you people come up with this crap like 'oh you are done with it now why can't we do it anymore, elitist yada yada' again. I for one have never been and will never go on a relic farm run. It is wrong, period. Anyone that did do this, including those elitist raiders you people keep mentioning have been taking advantage of a flaw in the game mechanics.</DIV>

The-Fourm-Pirate

07-26-2006, 07:38 PM

<P>A simple solution would be to move Slavering Alzid to somewhere in the begening tunnel and have a door that is behind him that won't open until he is killed. You could have like 4 or 5 trash encounters before him because 4 or 5 chances at relic every 6hrs is pretty insignifigant imo. In Deathtoll they could just make the stupid gazers in the front not respawn, FIX THE GODDAMNED ZONE IN FINALLY and add a 6hr failure lockout. Lyceum would be a bit tougher, but you could do the same thing as labs, and have a door at the bottom of the tunnel, and add a new named at the door that has mediocre drops comparable to the essance of fear.</P> <P>HoS never drops relic (I've only seen it once, on pain in a chest with his brawler weapon) and has a lockout for killing trash so that one is fine as it is (except maybe look into no relic dropping considering you get locked out for trash mobs?).</P> <P>Also, 100% access for Deathtoll would be plain tedious with AoAx4 lockouts, maybe if they put tal and gore in different zones with seperate lockouts, but it takes about 2 weeks to do the quest otherwise. 50% would be good enough to keep a guild from getting in off of a few server transfers.</P><p>Message Edited by The-Fourm-Pirate on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:50 AM</span>

v1510n

07-26-2006, 07:39 PM

Honestly, farming relic should be considered an exploit. So labs was intended for people to zone in with one group, kill a bunch of junk pretty much heroic mobs and end up full fabled? And of course, there is going to be argument, "Its the only fabled I can get" etc. Fabled loot isnt meant for casual players, what do you need it for? To make farming more relic easier?<div></div>

Whitemane

07-26-2006, 07:51 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miroh69 wrote:<BR> <B><I><FONT color=#ff0000>Can we get a longer lockout on these zones. 6 hours just seems rediculous to me. There is hardly any raid progression what so ever now days and why need it when you can just farm relic 2 times a day till you get all fabled....Either up the lockout, nerf the items or make it only drop off named mobs please. You don't see legendary loot dropping from random trash in SoS and whatnot....drop off named, so why have possible fabled armor drop off trash? Same with the legendary that drops in these zones. Thinking...2 1/2 or 3 days lockout for zoning in. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000> And make DT 100% access needed please. Thanks.</FONT></I></B><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree with the lockout on Killing anything in Labs etc. as its pretty lame as it stands. For DT access I do agree Im pretty tired of doing the dragons now and would rather not being doing them for the rest of eternity. 50-75% would be fine. 1 person does seem kinda low. Maybe 1 person per group?</P> <P> </P> <P>Gemma(s) 70 Templar Exalted</P>

Haapy

07-26-2006, 08:06 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:So, why do these people who don't invest in static times to playing the game need the loot if they don't play very much? I mean, I'm completely confused why you even need the loot if you don't play the game very much, if at all. It makes no sense. You don't "need" it, you want it. But in the end, you aren't willing to put forth the effort required to get it. This is why people are upset about relic. Become any person who can zone in with 2 or so groups can clear the trash and end up with some fabled gear. This destroyed item progression as has been stated on MANY MANY thread. Try reading a few of them.I just don't see why people should get fabled gear if they aren't willing to invest time to the game.<hr></blockquote>Availability of static times does not equal playtime amount <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Also these trash runs allow froward progression for such people, that do put in the time. If you dont play the game much, there is no way you will ever see a relic piece. Right now it seems you are saying that anyone without static time does not deserve a "raider's" gear, no matter the effort they are willing to put in.People doing trash runs did not destroy the item progression. The item progression is what SoE put in the game, not what people do that does not involve exploiting, and as SoE themselves have reviewed Lab runs , and installed the timers they felt were appropriate, this will no doubt remain in game. You cannot destroy what was not there from the beginning. How is a pickup raid of non-raiders destroying progression for your guild? The only thing that can do that is SoE introducing zones with various difficulties and random quality of loot. They did that with Lyceum, according to some. Trash runs had nothing to do with it.It puzzles me what difference does it really make if a pickup runs full clear once a week or trash twice a day. There will still be complaints from hardcores about n00bs running around in raid gear (there were a few threads to that effect already when LoA came out).</div>

Gaige

07-26-2006, 08:12 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emerix wrote:<BR> Relic stuff sucks anyway but its the only stuff normal casual players can get . <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Relic is raid gear it shouldn't be for casual players, period.</P> <P>They messed up with raid itemization in this expansion, and that's why I imagine the EoF armor sets will only drop off named, and probably hard boss named at that.</P> <P>There is legendary dropped and mastercrafted gear for casual players, fabled is for raiders.<BR></P>

ChaosUndivided

07-26-2006, 08:29 PM

<P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">I think what I find funny about this whole thing is, that for ages Raiders ( I mean real raiders, you know the ones who kill Named Mobs) Have been accused of getting Fabled gear and then trivializing “group” and “solo” content, thus forcing SOE to make it harder and thus screwing “the Groupers and soloers” and catering the game to “raiders”.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">The irony is, that the real raiders who have relic, use it to kill more difficult encounters, named mobs and harder raid zones. Where as this new breed of Faux Raiders just farm the relic for the SOLE PURPOSE of trivializing Solo and Group content. I mean you guys just admitted that the only reason a non raider would want relic or fabled for that matter is so that Group and Solo content is easier for you.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">You see when raiders get relic during their normal runs, they use it to gear up to beat the harder stuff, and by the time they’re at the top a lot of people have replaced their relic with better raid gear from harder zones (read :progression). We don’t kill raid mobs or get raid loot to kill heroics faster, we do it to get better geared to kill the next most difficult thing.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Well guess what ladies, when the majority of non-raiders is decked out in Relic farmed Fabled from killing trash, SoE will go ahead and make the game harder for the majority since they seem to be beating it with so much ease now thanks to their newly farmed relic.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">In essence the very thing that you non-raiders have been fearing all this time and the very thing that you’ve been accusing us of doing, will be perpetrated not by us, but by you yourselves. That my friends is irony. </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">It’s like a self fulfilling prophecy. And I can’t wait for it to happen just so I know exactly who to lay the blame on.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>

MeridianR

07-26-2006, 08:45 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Emerix wrote: <div></div>Relic stuff sucks anyway but its the only stuff normal casual players can get . <hr> </blockquote> <p>They messed up with raid itemization in this expansion, and that's why I imagine the EoF armor sets will only drop off named, and probably hard boss named at that.</p> <hr></blockquote>Actually I believe it all started when Poets Palace was dropping fabled gear like candy, so the 'casual' people got accustomed to seeing it drop and it snowballed from there.</div><p>Message Edited by MeridianR on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:46 PM</span>

MystaSkrat

07-26-2006, 08:48 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">I think what I find funny about this whole thing is, that for ages Raiders ( I mean real raiders, you know the ones who kill Named Mobs) Have been accused of getting Fabled gear and then trivializing “group” and “solo” content, thus forcing SOE to make it harder and thus screwing “the Groupers and soloers” and catering the game to “raiders”.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">The irony is, that the real raiders who have relic, use it to kill more difficult encounters, named mobs and harder raid zones. Where as this new breed of Faux Raiders just farm the relic for the SOLE PURPOSE of trivializing Solo and Group content. I mean you guys just admitted that the only reason a non raider would want relic or fabled for that matter is so that Group and Solo content is easier for you.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">You see when raiders get relic during their normal runs, they use it to gear up to beat the harder stuff, and by the time they’re at the top a lot of people have replaced their relic with better raid gear from harder zones (read :progression). We don’t kill raid mobs or get raid loot to kill heroics faster, we do it to get better geared to kill the next most difficult thing.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Well guess what ladies, when the majority of non-raiders is decked out in Relic farmed Fabled from killing trash, SoE will go ahead and make the game harder for the majority since they seem to be beating it with so much ease now thanks to their newly farmed relic.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">In essence the very thing that you non-raiders have been fearing all this time and the very thing that you’ve been accusing us of doing, will be perpetrated not by us, but by you yourselves. That my friends is irony. </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">It’s like a self fulfilling prophecy. And I can’t wait for it to happen just so I know exactly who to lay the blame on.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok, this is a badass post!

Haapy

07-26-2006, 08:48 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>sro wrote:<div>Well, lets see:1.Nizara, and hopefully more instances like that in the future. While not exactly a requirement by any means, having relic armor allowes for better flexibility with what classes you take there.</div><div> </div><div>Nizara isn't truly meant for the casuals. It is the T7 version of the Icy Digs instance (T5), which contained multiple x2 mobs to be killed with one group. So does Nizara (not labeled x2 but multiple triple ups will pretty much account for a x2 mob).Since casuals are beating it, and as someone said, in legendary gear, it clearly has a wider audience than you think.</div><div>2. Monk trials. Try doing 3rd+ floor solo run with defiler. Hell, even with conj it is very difficult. Having relic armor is most certanly a requirement for some classes.</div><div> </div><div>As if one or two pieces of fabled suddenly makes a zone possible? Even if it does, for classes that can't do the solo trials, SoE implemented GROUP trials. They did not intend for you to farm relic to do the solo instance, they wanted you to do the group version (that gives more pebbles too btw).Neither did they inteded for you to farm raid instances for solo trial runs, whats your point?</div><div>3. Solo farming SoS/PoA for plat and masters.</div><div> </div><div>You need fabled to do that? Come on don't make me laugh. Those classes that can actually do this (and they are quite select) can do this just as well with treasured as with fabled gear. Those that can not do this, will not be able to do so with relic or any kind of fabled whatsoever, it's either because they suck, or they are one of the classes that just can't do this no matter what.I agree, proper classes can farm any named in zone solo if they dont suck without relic armor (except maybe for dragons in PoA and Nest boss), but with relic gear you can do 4+ spawn points circuit before repops <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div>4. Being in a casual guild that raids on occasion, it might be difficult to fill slots, so with relic those guilds might be able to make an attempt with less people. If you check to see who is coming to these trash runs, you will notice that most of people are from guilds like these. Just because people are doing trash runs does not mean they dont want to raid, just means that their guilds do not have the resources to take on the full zone yet, and relic armor goes a long way to help those guilds.</div><div> </div><div>This is why they designed x2 !! raid zones! Roost, the crab, AoA x2, half of temple of scale and without doubt, more to come with EoF. x4 zones are there to be completed with 24 (or close to 24). Farming just the easy stuff is no excuse, since there are PLENTY other raids you can do and that ARE intended for your group's size. Ever tried T6 zones? They might be intended for 24 lvl60 players, but since you are not it would be more then fair to say 12-18 people can do it no?</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>You seem to not be able to understand that you're doing something that the game didn't intend you to do. Even though the game allows you to do it on a frequent basis, doesn't mean it is right to do it. As someone said, last time this happened GM's on all servers depopped the entire zone for the exact same reason. If this doesn't tell you that it is wrong to farm relic like this I don't know what will.I do believe that happened when there was no lockout timer at all and a few guilds farmed them for days on. Yes, it was wrong and SoE corrected that oversight rather quickly. Since then it has been reviewed and a lockout timer has been established on zone-in. Yes, I do believe that the current situation is intentional and SoE knows whats going on, as most devs play the game at t7 level and trash runs are a daily occurence on every server. Do you really think that SoE is ignorant? Or do you think that it is that hard to change the lockout timer when people been farming labs for months, during which several LUs managed to be put together?</div><div> </div><div>You know what I think, you're just scared as [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] as to lose your easy way to some of the best loot in game. That's why you're only doing labs, because it's a fast and easy way to good loot. You don't go to any x2 zone because hey, labs is much better loot, even though we're not doing the zone as intended - right?Labs trash has better loot? Umm, I think there are quite a few people in this thread alone that would disagree with you on that. Personally, I dont care either way, have done 2 trash runs a couple of months ago because peeps needed a healer, but no way I would set a foot in there now. Too [Removed for Content] boring, kinda like killing trash mobs in SoS hoping for a master chest.</div><div> </div><div>And before you people come up with this crap like 'oh you are done with it now why can't we do it anymore, elitist yada yada' again. I for one have never been and will never go on a relic farm run. It is wrong, period. Anyone that did do this, including those elitist raiders you people keep mentioning have been taking advantage of a flaw in the game mechanics.Why would I want to say something like that? I cannot really use that as I dont do trash runs :pAs far as a flaw in game mechanic, yes, that was once. Long time ago. Been fixed to current state. There is no flaw as far as SoE sees it. Farm runs existed in eq since the beginning and will always be a part of the game. Anyone remembers old farm runs in PoFear/PoHate? Dont kill the gods, just the trash around for some armor drops. I believe that was EXACTLY and in every aspect the same as the current trash runs. So just think of it as PoFear + Kael.</div><hr></blockquote></div>

Pins

07-26-2006, 09:07 PM

<blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:A whole bunch of stuff that I agree with!<hr></blockquote>Exactly.

hellfire

07-26-2006, 09:16 PM

<DIV>know what the funny thing is....you dont even have to go into any dungeon for relic.the 2 mobs outside HoS have a chance to drop relic.</DIV>

vinterskugge

07-26-2006, 09:26 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hellfire wrote:<BR> <DIV>know what the funny thing is....you dont even have to go into any dungeon for relic.the 2 mobs outside HoS have a chance to drop relic.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Are you serious? We've never actually gotten relic inside except from nameds!

MystaSkrat

07-26-2006, 09:26 PM

Yea, one of our brigs got relic pants off of one of those golems lol

Pins

07-26-2006, 09:33 PM

<blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hellfire wrote:<BR> <DIV>know what the funny thing is....you dont even have to go into any dungeon for relic.the 2 mobs outside HoS have a chance to drop relic.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Are you serious? We've never actually gotten relic inside except from nameds!<hr></blockquote> Yah, those 2 mobs outside of HoS drop it. Either that or they drop like 4 plat total.

MeridianR

07-26-2006, 09:35 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> hellfire wrote: <div></div> <div>know what the funny thing is....you dont even have to go into any dungeon for relic.the 2 mobs outside HoS have a chance to drop relic.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Are you serious? We've never actually gotten relic inside except from nameds!<hr></blockquote> Yah, those 2 mobs outside of HoS drop it. Either that or they drop like 4 plat total.<hr></blockquote>We got a Dragonhide pelt last night : / - no cash</div>

Haapy

07-26-2006, 09:46 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">I think what I find funny about this whole thing is, that for ages Raiders ( I mean real raiders, you know the ones who kill Named Mobs) Have been accused of getting Fabled gear and then trivializing “group” and “solo” content, thus forcing SOE to make it harder and thus screwing “the Groupers and soloers” and catering the game to “raiders”.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font></span> </p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">The irony is, that the real raiders who have relic, use it to kill more difficult encounters, named mobs and harder raid zones. Where as this new breed of Faux Raiders just farm the relic for the SOLE PURPOSE of trivializing Solo and Group content. I mean you guys just admitted that the only reason a non raider would want relic or fabled for that matter is so that Group and Solo content is easier for you.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font></span> </p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">You see when raiders get relic during their normal runs, they use it to gear up to beat the harder stuff, and by the time they’re at the top a lot of people have replaced their relic with better raid gear from harder zones (read :progression). We don’t kill raid mobs or get raid loot to kill heroics faster, we do it to get better geared to kill the next most difficult thing.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font></span> </p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Well guess what ladies, when the majority of non-raiders is decked out in Relic farmed Fabled from killing trash, SoE will go ahead and make the game harder for the majority since they seem to be beating it with so much ease now thanks to their newly farmed relic.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font></span> </p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">In essence the very thing that you non-raiders have been fearing all this time and the very thing that you’ve been accusing us of doing, will be perpetrated not by us, but by you yourselves. That my friends is irony. </font></font></span></p><p><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font></span> </p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">It’s like a self fulfilling prophecy. And I can’t wait for it to happen just so I know exactly who to lay the blame on.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font></span> </p><p><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font></span> </p><p><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font></span> </p><hr></blockquote>Lol, I have personally have never belonged to camp of people that cried about the raiders or about raider's gear trivializing the content. Miroh asserted that people that farming trash are lazy and want an easy way out. I disagreed with that, since it is, in my opinion, it is too much work to do those trash runs compared to every other alternative. Someone asked why people need relic gear, and I tried to explain why people need better gear (nizara, monk trials, farming), and why some people are unable to raid in regular guilds (schedule conflicts). And yes, I do believe that relic gear not only makes farming easier and faster, but some nameds are even impossible without it. Surely you cannot say that anything a fully relic'ed monk can kill, he can kill in fully legendary gear as well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I think that this is just people that are not in raid guilds organizing together to experience the content that they could not do alone or in group. Lets think back to eq1. Remember when people started doing pickup raids for PoF and PoH? Kael? Kunark's dragons? When PoP came out at first pickups were limited to T1 planes, after a while, enough random people had T2 access completed to allow pickups to raid those, at the end whn eq2 came out there were pickups in elemental planes. In eq1 however, all content was contested and fo those pickups to happen raid guilds needed to move on to bigger and better things. In eq2 there is no such limiting factor as everything is instanced, so you are starting to see the same pattern emerge.Right now people are doing pickups for Lab trash runs, AoA, Crab, Lyceum. I am sure soon enough there will be pickups for full clears, it just takes some time and some gearing up, as it did before. But in this game, the masses are not limited by raid guilds killing the contesteds to block the path, so I am sure we will see non-guilded folk with DT access in a year or so. And thus people that are farming relic gear will be using it for bigger raids in the future. Afterall, farming is pretty darn boring when you are 70/50 with every slot upgraded to best non-raid gear and every spell at master.In the end, I do not see relic armor runs being anything more than a combination of PoF and Kael pickup runs that have existed for many years. And I really do not see solid enough reasons as to why people are so worked up about them.</div>

Gertack_v2

07-26-2006, 09:49 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:Yah, those 2 mobs outside of HoS drop it. Either that or they drop like 4 plat total.<hr></blockquote>If they drop cash, the chest will decay before looting permissions expire. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(Our raid zoned in too fast one night before looting the chest, so I camped the thing for free money, or so I thought...)</div>

Pins

07-26-2006, 09:50 PM

The fact is, a pickup raid could gear up with T6 raiding content just as easy to take on T7 raid content, rather than farming trash for relic. I know my old guild(who's not that great anymore, but they were decent at the start, we were 3rd or so to clear Labs WW) did it in T6 gear. We survived, I'm sure pickup raids/guild alliance raids could as well. They just have to have the drive/emotion to want to do it. If you get people in for the loot, that's a social problem, and you should kick them. You need to find people who want to have the drive to kill real raid mobs, not trash. Get them, and your problem is solved.

Tazr

07-26-2006, 09:51 PM

<P>My guild started off doing T6, then progressed to T7, we farmed relic in Lab and Lyceum for about 4 weeks until we were able to take on the named. We are a lot more successful with the few relic upgrades we have. From a casual guild standpoint (We are just a tad more than casual), relic helped us advance at a quicker pace, it gave us some slack when working on strats.</P> <P>After reading the entirety of this post, I was not annoyed that anyone wants an increased lockout or a nerf of the items. Obviously its a pretty contraversal subject, so the chances of it being changed one way or the other are slim. I just find it irritating that anyone really cares, especially given the reasons. </P> <P>You dont look unique anymore? <BR>Lab lags? (I have never experienced lag in lab) <BR>If you dont raid you dont need Relic?</P> <P>Are you guys serious? The entire point of an MMO is character advancement, getting Relic is a nice way of advancing your character and if your in a smaller family guild due to time constraints or friends or whatever, this is a nice way to advance your Character beyond regular grouping, but not enough to cause you to end up in Deathtoll.</P> <P>As for T5 seeing everyone in the raid gear giving it a unique look, I actually agree to a point, but not enough to completely remove any type of T7 raiding from smaller and more casual guilds, thats just selfish and unneccesary. If your in a very high end guild, take a step back, and really think about how this really effects you, or if your just complaining to complain.</P> <P> </P>

Wabit

07-26-2006, 09:54 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1>I think what I find funny about this whole thing is, that for ages Raiders ( I mean real raiders, you know the ones who kill Named Mobs) Have been accused of getting Fabled gear and then trivializing “group” and “solo” content, thus forcing SOE to make it harder and thus screwing “the Groupers and soloers” and catering the game to “raiders”.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1>The irony is, that the real raiders who have relic, use it to kill more difficult encounters, named mobs and harder raid zones. Where as this new breed of Faux Raiders just farm the relic for the SOLE PURPOSE of trivializing Solo and Group content. I mean you guys just admitted that the only reason a non raider would want relic or fabled for that matter is so that Group and Solo content is easier for you.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1>You see when raiders get relic during their normal runs, they use it to gear up to beat the harder stuff, and by the time they’re at the top a lot of people have replaced their relic with better raid gear from harder zones (read :progression). We don’t kill raid mobs or get raid loot to kill heroics faster, we do it to get better geared to kill the next most difficult thing.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1>Well guess what ladies, when the majority of non-raiders is decked out in Relic farmed Fabled from killing trash, SoE will go ahead and make the game harder for the majority since they seem to be beating it with so much ease now thanks to their newly farmed relic.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1>In essence the very thing that you non-raiders have been fearing all this time and the very thing that you’ve been accusing us of doing, will be perpetrated not by us, but by you yourselves. That my friends is irony. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1>It’s like a self fulfilling prophecy. And I can’t wait for it to happen just so I know exactly who to lay the blame on.</FONT></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/agree</P> <P>your MT doesn't need to be full t7 fabled to beat labs... i did it in mostly t6 armor the first time, and got my fell set of relic from actully clearing the zones on a weekly basis... </P>

vinterskugge

07-26-2006, 09:59 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR>The fact is, a pickup raid could gear up with T6 raiding content just as easy to take on T7 raid content, rather than farming trash for relic. I know my old guild(who's not that great anymore, but they were decent at the start, we were 3rd or so to clear Labs WW) did it in T6 gear. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You learned it all in Beta though. :p</P> <P>Exactly the same situation with my old guild though, and we beat it about an hour after Calaglin's guild did. Complete T6 gear because we'd not raided anything else.</P><p>Message Edited by vinterskugge on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:28 PM</span>

Pins

07-26-2006, 10:13 PM

<blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR>The fact is, a pickup raid could gear up with T6 raiding content just as easy to take on T7 raid content, rather than farming trash for relic. I know my old guild(who's not that great anymore, but they were decent at the start, we were 3rd or so to clear Labs WW) did it in T6 gear. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You learned all in Beta though. :p</P> <P>Exactly the same situation with my old guild though, and we beat about an hour after Calaglin's guild did. Complete T6 gear because we'd not raided anything else.</P><hr></blockquote> But as some people want to claim, beta doesn't help! *cough* *cough*

BooDon

07-26-2006, 10:14 PM

<P>I think relic is decent gear but I know for scouts that some of the nemesis stuff is better. Dracomancer gloves being better than relic and so forth. The only exception are the chest and legs which the focus effect makes these items desirable. It would be nice to see some hard to get fabled that blow these out of the water or make them only drop off nameds. I think the fabled tag should be removed and replaced with legendary (i'll except a 10% stat nerf if it reduces the repairs). I'd have to say I'm against getting rid of these items completely. There would just be too much outrage over it. Its also nice to get new recruits some raid gear yet not have them get something super rare that a longtime guildmember could of used.</P> <P>Here is a rundown of my solutions:</P> <P>1 day lockout timer when you enter the zone</P> <P>Relic doesn't start dropping till you kill at least one named. The legendary stuff would still drop but people can only farm for legendary bracers and gloves for so long.</P> <P>Relic chest and legs only drop off nameds. Maybe even make it so the first chest and legs wouldn't drop till you defeated teh Trio named in labs. I say this because the 3 nameds leading up to this encounter can be dropped by a good pickup raid whereas this fight has alot more difficulty.</P> <P>I'd be fine with DT acess 50% or so. 12 people isn't too harsh. The backflagging would suck due to AoA lockouts. Maybe there could be some quest you could grab outside DT zonein that would just let you kill the DT dragons (maybe 1 of the AoA dragons instead of two) and be able to come along. You wouldn't be able to zone in without someone who was really flagged but it would serve as a pass to tag along and count twoard the 50%.</P> <P>idk these are just suggestions, my biggest problem isn't with the loot dropping itself its the people lagging up the zone when im actually trying to clear it. Well that and some pickup relic run aggroing the young dragon who knocks me back off the island.</P>

Riversideblues

07-26-2006, 10:18 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:I'm just plain stupid<hr></blockquote>see vallyboy1, there's a thing called raid progression, it's something this expantion has lacked.see how it works, since you obviously are too stupid to know, or just don't like having anything long term to do in this game is:-you kill zone one, you get some items from zone one that help you kill-zone two, much harder than zone one, so we best go back and get more gear from zone one till we can do more of zone two and go after-zone three! very hard zone that slowly gets easier once we get some more loot from zones two and onesee how it works? but as of right now the best gear dropping is stuff off of two groupable content, does that fufill progression? nope (i had to answer that for you since i really don't think you could have on your own)</div>

TwistedFaith

07-26-2006, 10:38 PM

<blockquote><hr>Riversideblues wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:I'm just plain stupid<hr></blockquote>see vallyboy1, there's a thing called raid progression, it's something this expantion has lacked.see how it works, since you obviously are too stupid to know, or just don't like having anything long term to do in this game is:-you kill zone one, you get some items from zone one that help you kill-zone two, much harder than zone one, so we best go back and get more gear from zone one till we can do more of zone two and go after-zone three! very hard zone that slowly gets easier once we get some more loot from zones two and onesee how it works? but as of right now the best gear dropping is stuff off of two groupable content, does that fufill progression? nope (i had to answer that for you since i really don't think you could have on your own)</div><hr></blockquote>Wow angry raider alert, must have saw a noob running around in the same armor as him lol.

USAFJeeper

07-26-2006, 10:45 PM

<DIV>OMG. I find myself agreeing here with some people it has given me great pleasure to disagree with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Farming runs in lab just seem to tick me off. The thought never really crossed our mind, as far as I know, we wanted to kill the named mobs in Labs, not only for the fat loot although that is a great bonus, but to kill them as a guild. Put a 6 day lockout timer on any kill in Labs at a minimum to curb farming. (farming just seems to make me think of plat sales!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deathtoll should require 50-75% access. If Bane was able to do it, casual raiders can do it. And, yeah we are almost 100% DT flagged.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel so dirty now!</DIV>

Gaellen

07-26-2006, 10:54 PM

My guess is that 99% of the people posting here are NOT angry that casual raiders have something to do, they're angry that these casual raiders can very very very easily get what is effectively some of the best gear in the game, due to a lack of item progression. They don't want to strip fun from casual raiders. They don't want casual raiders not to have nice stuff with pretty tags and things. They want "real" raiders, who tackle much harder content, to get something worthwhile out of it. I firmly disagree with changing the drop rates or lockout in relation to relic. This puts any guilds new to the scene at a huge disadvantage, as the rest of us have had months and months of time to do whatever we want here - farm it or not. Suddenly they'll have less chance to try it, less chance of getting any, less chance to really break into the scene, and for what... because it took them a bit longer to level? It's extremely unfair and biased and they deserve the exact same opportunity everybody else has had for the last few months. However. I personally wouldn't object (and I doubt a lot of people would) to some slight nerfing to the relic gear. It should be the stepping stone, the extra "oomph" that gives less experienced groups the chance to try harder content. It shouldn't be the best in the game for any class, in any body slot, and guilds who have beaten every peice of content out there really shouldn't still be wearing full sets of relic. /endrant <div></div>

Pins

07-26-2006, 10:57 PM

Okay, here goes another post on this matter(I'm still not banned for my posts in another thread on soemthing else, I'm amazed I'm still able to post! but whatever).Obviously, there's nothing they can do to fix this tier. It will remain "broken" for item progression forever. EoF will hopefully try to solve the problem. And then the next expansion afterwards should fix it in the end, as it'll be a new tier. That'll be when things will be fine. Until then, item progression sucks for this tier, and there'll be nothing we can really do about it, nor can the developers.

IllusiveThoughts

07-26-2006, 11:23 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> valleyboy1 wrote:<BR><BR>Most really annoy you huh, seeing 'noobs' running around in fabled lol.<BR><BR>Still cant understand why this would bother anyone but each to their own I guess lol.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think it stems from animocity against players who have or may have more relic armor than someone who does the zone once a week to kill named with a full raid force.</P> <P>I know i've seen more relic armor on a casual gamer than i've gotten off labs raids. It doesn't bother me, good for them I think, but I can only imagine others may not feel the same way.<BR></P>

NaeenSpeedbringer

07-26-2006, 11:47 PM

<DIV>i have an idea... [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off and worry about your own gear. i'll worry about mine.</DIV>

Krontak

07-27-2006, 12:03 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> valleyboy1 wrote:<BR><BR>Most really annoy you huh, seeing 'noobs' running around in fabled lol.<BR><BR>Still cant understand why this would bother anyone but each to their own I guess lol.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think it stems from animocity against players who have or may have more relic armor than someone who does the zone once a week to kill named with a full raid force.</P> <P>I know i've seen more relic armor on a casual gamer than i've gotten off labs raids. It doesn't bother me, good for them I think, but I can only imagine others may not feel the same way.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>qfe for both of them. Why do you all really give a crap about other people? Is it the kill or is it the gear or is it the stats the gear gives that matters in the end? Is relic the top of the line for EVERY slot for each class? Don't think so. Quit yer whinin' and move along. Ya sound like babies fighting over toys or something. Someone mentioned in another post that this tiers itemization was kinda whacked which was kinda true. And, like they mentioned also that with EOF and the eventual t8 will hopefully fix the broken. We'll see. <BR>

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 12:06 AM

<blockquote><hr>Tazric wrote:<P>My guild started off doing T6, then progressed to T7, we farmed relic in Lab and Lyceum for about 4 weeks until we were able to take on the named. We are a lot more successful with the few relic upgrades we have. From a casual guild standpoint (We are just a tad more than casual), relic helped us advance at a quicker pace, it gave us some slack when working on strats.</P><P>After reading the entirety of this post, I was not annoyed that anyone wants an increased lockout or a nerf of the items. Obviously its a pretty contraversal subject, so the chances of it being changed one way or the other are slim. I just find it irritating that anyone really cares, especially given the reasons. </P><P>You dont look unique anymore? <BR>Lab lags? (I have never experienced lag in lab) <BR>If you dont raid you dont need Relic?</P><P>Are you guys serious? The entire point of an MMO is character advancement, getting Relic is a nice way of advancing your character and if your in a smaller family guild due to time constraints or friends or whatever, this is a nice way to advance your Character beyond regular grouping, but not enough to cause you to end up in Deathtoll.</P><P>As for T5 seeing everyone in the raid gear giving it a unique look, I actually agree to a point, but not enough to completely remove any type of T7 raiding from smaller and more casual guilds, thats just selfish and unneccesary. If your in a very high end guild, take a step back, and really think about how this really effects you, or if your just complaining to complain.</P><P> </P><hr></blockquote>Dont you realize what a problem this is? Because of relic farming runs wich should have never been a possibility in the first place, your guild was able to "advance at a quicker pace". Here's a shocker. Your guild should progress at the pace equal the raiding abilities of your guild. There should not be a poor design that allows you to advance quicker.This is a core problem and it roots itself in and weeds out any fun left for real raiders. Random guilds advance further/faster than it should have because of relic runs. Random guilds get to some new content and get owned, crying for nerfs in the process. SOE nerfs content to suit the random guilds. You think Im lieing? Everything in KoS is easier than it used to be. I PROMISE chel'drak will be nerfed in some way, shape, or form before EoF comes out to accomodate these random guilds that progressed too quickly all because of relic. The bottom line is, you should not be able to clear the instance right away. A guild should go in and maybe they only kill pardas pred. Ok next week better luck on the other named. The next week they go in and perhaps they can kill pardas and that one alzid, getting some more loot. Then after they do that for a couple weeks maybe they are able to take down the trio, and so on and so forth. Instead we have these random guilds thinking we should be able to go in and clear the zone! If not we need to farm relic till we can. That shouldnt be a possibility at all. The only possibility should be you go in week after week when your lockout is up and progress as far as you can and only gearing up on the named. Hell, the named should only drop fabled like 1/5 and the boss be the only guarenteed fabled in the zone. No trash mobs shoudl drop anything extremely worthwhile. I seriously hope whenever t8 comes out that fabled takes a major step backwards in frequency and the boards are filled with complaints from all these random guilds about how they killed 2 out of 10 named in the zone and never got anything more than 2 nice legendary pieces of gear meanwhile the local uber guild killed 10/10 and got 8 nice legendary and 2 pieces of fabled.

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 12:08 AM

Oh and for you people saying why do you worry about other people?I dont worry about other people, i worry about the health of the game. In your little self centric world maybe you think that everyone having equal gear and us all being communists is a good thing, but its not. It doesnt support longevity at all and even the designers know this (Moorgard has even written about it before, although not on these boards). I ask you, if you dont care about other people so much, why the hell are you posting here? The only reason to post a question like that is because you care about what people like me have to say or are concerned about what we are saying. Maybe you should be asking yourself your own question.

MystaSkrat

07-27-2006, 12:11 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR> meanwhile the local uber guild killed 10/10 and got 8 nice legendary and 2 pieces of fabled.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I would love that... As long as fabled was worth being fabled anyway<BR>

Tazr

07-27-2006, 12:15 AM

<DIV>Ish, you completely over-exagerated the issue and went off in a complete tandom at the same time. Look at <A href="http://www.firstprophecy.com" target=_blank>www.firstprophecy.com</A>, our progression is mapped out in our news sites. That will show you what relic did for our guild. We work hard, we work tirelessly, nothing was quick paced and blasting through content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I was trying to point out, was that Relic gave us the edge we needed to be able to work on strats. It still took us a lot of skill and work to get the stuff dead. To me, thats the exact reason Relic is in there. We are now clearing labs named except Vyemm every week and working on Vyemm now, 3 months after we started our progression drive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bringing up the nerfing of mobs, to me, has no relevance on the issue of whether relic dropping zones should have a larger lockout.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I did'nt explain myself enough to get my point across I apologize, I am trying to give you all an example of how Relic gear can be farmed for a period of time to help progress a guild, I think this is using the lockouts as intended, instead of just farming with no intention of progressing past this.</DIV>

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 12:36 AM

<blockquote><hr>Tazric wrote:<DIV>Ish, you completely over-exagerated the issue and went off in a complete tandom at the same time. Look at <A href="http://www.firstprophecy.com" target=_blank>www.firstprophecy.com</A>, our progression is mapped out in our news sites. That will show you what relic did for our guild. We work hard, we work tirelessly, nothing was quick paced and blasting through content.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>What I was trying to point out, was that Relic gave us the edge we needed to be able to work on strats. It still took us a lot of skill and work to get the stuff dead. To me, thats the exact reason Relic is in there. We are now clearing labs named except Vyemm every week and working on Vyemm now, 3 months after we started our progression drive.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Bringing up the nerfing of mobs, to me, has no relevance on the issue of whether relic dropping zones should have a larger lockout.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>If I did'nt explain myself enough to get my point across I apologize, I am trying to give you all an example of how Relic gear can be farmed for a period of time to help progress a guild, I think this is using the lockouts as intended, instead of just farming with no intention of progressing past this.</DIV><hr></blockquote>You see to have taken my post as if was all about you. I simply quoted you because you said that relic helped you advance quicker than normal. Again though you point it out, farming that NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN GAME gave you "the edge you needed". Do you not realize how that edge you needed should have come from weeks of trying the encounter, killing whatever named you could and using the gear obtained their to gear up. Again I will say it, RELIC FARMING NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN AN OPTION.And watcher nerfing of mobs as a result of it matters to you or not, it is an effect and has been proving to be true. Its all part of making the game for the worse for ANYONE who enjoys any form of progression and challenge.

Tazr

07-27-2006, 12:47 AM

<P>If thats the case, why dont we just do away with armor and weapons completely and just rely on strategy! It amazes me, you talk about no progression and bad itemization, yet Relic is the progression that you farm from to get to the next level. The lab named are not pushovers by any means even with a few peices of relic on selected people. I see relic is just part of progression, and its existance is not making the game that much easier for the casuals.</P> <P>Again I think your exagerating the issue at hand by using Relic as a transport to your overall issues, which I might add I entirely agree with. I just have to disagree on the relics.</P>

Tazr

07-27-2006, 12:53 AM

<P>Oh and BTW Ish..</P> <P>"Again though you point it out, farming that NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN GAME gave you "the edge you needed". Do you not realize how that edge you needed should have come from weeks of trying the encounter, killing whatever named you could and using the gear obtained their to gear up. Again I will say it, RELIC FARMING NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN AN OPTION."</P> <P>Did you get much relic during the weeks and weeks of trying the named? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 12:56 AM

<blockquote><hr>Tazric wrote:<P>If thats the case, why dont we just do away with armor and weapons completely and just rely on strategy! It amazes me, you talk about no progression and bad itemization, yet Relic is the progression that you farm from to get to the next level. The lab named are not pushovers by any means even with a few peices of relic on selected people. I see relic is just part of progression, and its existance is not making the game that much easier for the casuals.</P><P>Again I think your exagerating the issue at hand by using Relic as a transport to your overall issues, which I might add I entirely agree with. I just have to disagree on the relics.</P><hr></blockquote>Ok at least until this point you were just misinformed, now you are getting border line close to stupidity though.First off, the lab named are pushovers and to say they arent shows how little experience with high end raiding you have.Relic is the biggest cause of ruined progression there is. It does not support it. In fact, 9/10 relic is better than the drops we get off named mobs. It completely destroyed progression, period. Anyone with a clue can tell you that and it is the very reason why SOE has assured people that the "relic mistake" will not happen again with armor sets in EoF. There is nothing in KoS that can NOT be killed in relic. How is killing the lowest level trash mobs to get the gear you need to kill EVERYTHING else progression? Its not, end of discussion.In other words, everyone who knows much about the raid scene agree's that relic was a giant mistake. It was horribly implemented and it got out of control before it could be contained and therefore we were stuck with it. Relic farming was never intended, it was a mistake, and there are tons of people out there with relic that should have never seen it because thats just the way it is. Its not just my opinion, its everyone who cares about the game long term's opinion as well.

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 12:57 AM

<blockquote><hr>Tazric wrote:<P>Oh and BTW Ish..</P><P>"Again though you point it out, farming that NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN GAME gave you "the edge you needed". Do you not realize how that edge you needed should have come from weeks of trying the encounter, killing whatever named you could and using the gear obtained their to gear up. Again I will say it, RELIC FARMING NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN AN OPTION."</P><P>Did you get much relic during the weeks and weeks of trying the named? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><hr></blockquote>Real guilds didnt need weeks and weeks. Lab was a complete joke from the get go.EDIT - and besides, that wouldnt change the fact taht relic should have only dropped from named, and not every named but boss mobs at that. Relic as a whole was very poorly implemented.<p>Message Edited by Ishboozor on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:58 PM</span>

Gaellen

07-27-2006, 01:08 AM

Weeks and weeks of trying the named in labs.. hah! No, really, hah!! I'm not one to toot trumpets, but seriously.. weeks? Ishy's gang? On Labs named? And I'm the Queen of Sheba. Most raiding guilds who tried Labs "for real" beat the entire zone on their first attempt. Those who didn't beat it, at least got to Vyemn, then beat him the following week. As much as I like to disagree with Miroh he has one great point. Most of the casual guilds farming it could probably beat it with a little effort; they don't because it's worth more to farm it - easier, faster, and you get more of the gear which is just as good or better than beating contestables, doing epic quest lines, or taking down other high end targets. <div></div>

vinterskugge

07-27-2006, 01:12 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR> <P>Real guilds didnt need weeks and weeks. Lab was a complete joke from the get go.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My old guild killed it on our first try and got the 4th WW clearing, in full T6 fabled/T7 legendary and they're hardly a top guild. It was always easy.</P>

Tazr

07-27-2006, 01:17 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazric wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>If thats the case, why dont we just do away with armor and weapons completely and just rely on strategy! It amazes me, you talk about no progression and bad itemization, yet Relic is the progression that you farm from to get to the next level. The lab named are not pushovers by any means even with a few peices of relic on selected people. I see relic is just part of progression, and its existance is not making the game that much easier for the casuals.</P><BR> <P>Again I think your exagerating the issue at hand by using Relic as a transport to your overall issues, which I might add I entirely agree with. I just have to disagree on the relics.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Ok at least until this point you were just misinformed, now you are getting border line close to stupidity though.<BR><BR>First off, the lab named are pushovers and to say they arent shows how little experience with high end raiding you have.<BR><BR>Relic is the biggest cause of ruined progression there is. It does not support it. In fact, 9/10 relic is better than the drops we get off named mobs. It completely destroyed progression, period. Anyone with a clue can tell you that and it is the very reason why SOE has assured people that the "relic mistake" will not happen again with armor sets in EoF. There is nothing in KoS that can NOT be killed in relic. How is killing the lowest level trash mobs to get the gear you need to kill EVERYTHING else progression? Its not, end of discussion.<BR><BR>In other words, everyone who knows much about the raid scene agree's that relic was a giant mistake. It was horribly implemented and it got out of control before it could be contained and therefore we were stuck with it. Relic farming was never intended, it was a mistake, and there are tons of people out there with relic that should have never seen it because thats just the way it is. Its not just my opinion, its everyone who cares about the game long term's opinion as well.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I understand completely what you are saying Ish, don't get me wrong. I wonder if its being taken out of proportion thats all. Did relic ruin YOUR progression? Was YOUR progression through T7 killed because some of your guild members had relic? Or is it really that smaller guilds are getting raid loot easier than they should be?</P> <P>Think about this.. Every part of progression in T7, minus a few contested mobs are Instanced. For most of progression you never see another guild (I realize that the contested Dragons in the opening months of T7 this was not the case). So what part of relic in T7 ruined it? I wonder how much of this is just the carry over from seeing lesser guilds than your own getting raid gear (to a point) and seeing content. You have the same options as they do, you chose to do it differently and the more hardcore approach, which in the ends, gets you server firsts, world first, discoveries, bragging rights whatever. Guilds that need to farm relic are FAR behind the curve in that respect.</P> <P>I understand about Longevity and survival of the game, I played EQ1 for almost 7 years in high end raiding guilds. I also think its sad that guilds need to farm relic every 6 hours, its obviously not how it was intended to be done. I just wonder if the entire context of this thread is out of proportion? If dev's fixed itemization completely to a level where it actually made sense, and left relic in the game, I believe for the most part nobody would be unhappy.</P> <P>Sideline - And one more thing, if someones debating you, in a adult mature manner, please dont reply to them with remarks like "now you are getting border line close to stupidity though". Believe it or not, not everyone will agree to everything you say, your completely one sided biased on hardcore raiding, I am biased towards mid hardcore, semi-casual raiding. I enjoy posting on these topics for the debates, you chose to answer me, you could ignore it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

Caetrel

07-27-2006, 01:20 AM

<div></div>I wish the devs would just make the 6 day LO for the relic zones trigger upon entry or the first mob killed. Getting relic off of trash mobs is a problem I can live with. Relic being as good as it is I guess I can live with too. But allowing the continued daily farming of trash just panders to the lowest form of gameplay IMO. You can one group labs trash twice a day lol. It's really hard to believe this has been allowed to continue. The inception of relic at the release of KoS was a good thing. Having decent rewards for middling raiders is great IMO. The daily rinsing of trash mobs and lack of progression after relic is the problem. I expect the next xpac will make things better by introducing superior loot off harder mobs. But that is a long wait and alot of people are very bored. Changing the LO is at least a bandaid on the bullet wound. Better than nothing IMO. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Caetrel on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:22 PM</span>

Tazr

07-27-2006, 01:20 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaellen wrote:<BR>Weeks and weeks of trying the named in labs.. hah! No, really, hah!! I'm not one to toot trumpets, but seriously.. weeks? Ishy's gang? On Labs named? And I'm the Queen of Sheba. Most raiding guilds who tried Labs "for real" beat the entire zone on their first attempt. Those who didn't beat it, at least got to Vyemn, then beat him the following week. <BR><BR>As much as I like to disagree with Miroh he has one great point. Most of the casual guilds farming it could probably beat it with a little effort; they don't because it's worth more to farm it - easier, faster, and you get more of the gear which is just as good or better than beating contestables, doing epic quest lines, or taking down other high end targets.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ummm Ish said it not me. And I really dont keep a close eye on the competition of upper guilds. You have my respect for what you achieve, but I have my own guild to run <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Tazr

07-27-2006, 01:23 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caetrel wrote:<BR>I wish the devs would just make the 6 day LO for the relic zones trigger upon entry or the first mob killed. <BR><BR>Getting relic off of trash mobs is a problem I can live with. Relic being as good as it is I guess I can live with too. But allowing the continued daily farming of trash just panders to the lowest form of gameplay IMO. You can one group labs trash twice a day lol. It's really hard to believe this has been allowed to continue.<BR><BR>The inception of relic at the release of KoS was a good thing. Having decent rewards for middling raiders is great IMO. The daily rinsing of trash mobs and lack of progression after relic is the problem. I expect the next xpac will make things better by introducing superior loot off harder mobs. But that is a long wait and alot of people are very bored.<BR><BR>Changing the the LO is at least a bandaid on the bullet wound. Better than nothing IMO.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I still think a 6 day lockout is as ridiculous as a 6 hour lockout. 2 days tops I would say. You get on average 1 peice per fun? I have seen 4 dry runs in a row before, not to mention rotting relic because the wrong peices drop, it would take months to gear a raid force up in full relic. Even when in full relic, you dont learn anything from it. We clear lab named now, and I still dont want a 6 day lockout on entry.

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 01:23 AM

Saying relic is progression is beyond stupid. I was being nice with what I said. I think you will find a LOT of people agree with me on that. You should be happy I didnt say what I was really thinking.All itemization in this tier is screwed up. Relic is the single biggest problem though. It basically comes down that a guild can farm relic and get some items that are better than what I can get from killing the mutagenic outcast/princes/hurricanus. How does that make any sense? Contested, 1 kill a week for 1 guild. Relic, too many items to count coming in for everyone every day. And the relic is better? Seriously screwed up.I think your thinking that I care because I dont want other people having nice gear. That couldnt be further from the truth. If I didnt want people having nice gear, I wouldnt sell it to them. We regularily sell gear from contested mobs, instance mobs, you name it, we sell it. Its definitly not about what other people can get, its about how they get it. If they kill the named mob, they earned it. If they buy it from someone who kills the mob, they earned it. If some trash dropped it as they are avoiding lock out timers? They didnt earn it.If SOE gave every guild buy mine full relic to start the tier, we still would have beat them to all content. Its not about that either. It just about itemization and raid progression as a whole.

Tazr

07-27-2006, 01:26 AM

<P>"Saying relic is progression is beyond stupid. I was being nice with what I said. I think you will find a LOT of people agree with me on that. You should be happy I didnt say what I was really thinking."</P> <P>I'm honored.. no really...</P>

MystaSkrat

07-27-2006, 01:28 AM

I bet I know what he's really thinking!

Gaige

07-27-2006, 01:29 AM

<P>Killing a trash mob that is one groupable and blue shouldn't equate to even a chance at getting gear equal to or better than killing a yellow contested mob or an orange instanced mob.</P> <P>That is why relic ruined progression.</P>

IllusiveThoughts

07-27-2006, 01:37 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR>I seriously hope whenever t8 comes out that fabled takes a major step backwards in frequency and the boards are filled with complaints from all these random guilds about how they killed 2 out of 10 named in the zone and never got anything more than 2 nice legendary pieces of gear meanwhile the local uber guild killed 10/10 and got 8 nice legendary and 2 pieces of fabled.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That would only further separate content and make the game less healthy, especially when new encounters would have to be designed around having said gear.</P> <P>It would put eq2 into the same prediciment of eq1 and getting to POP / time then progressing to GOD, and so on.</P> <P>The big problem is that got out of hand and the hardcore began to separate itself further and further from the general populace, and you started to see expansions designed around the harder content (see GOD)</P> <P>Not to mention it turned off lots of new players because of the ginormous time sink required to progress up to just even POP raids.</P> <P>From what I gather EQ2 is trying to NOT do that.</P>

TwistedFaith

07-27-2006, 01:44 AM

Has a developer actually posted that the relic was a mistake, or is it just Ishbu's opinion?

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 01:44 AM

Not really, within one tier their would be progression which is fine, but do to the tier based level system, you could jump in at any level raise and using just group based gear start raiding.

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 01:46 AM

How would it seperate anything? Its a new tier. That means all gear from the last one (t7) was made obsolete. All players start off on a clean slate. If you clear the entire zone, you get a piece or 2 of fabaled and some legendary. If you dont clear the zone, you probably only get some legendary. I never said anything about making it so insanely hard that unless you had the fabled from the final mobs in the zone you could never beat them. Yes, I would expect it to be hard enough that you will need the legendary gear from the various raid zone named before being able to kill the bosses taht drop fabled. That goes for all guilds. Believe it or not, some guilds/players are just better. Its not the gear that makes them. The guilds that are better will always advance through the content faster. Just to clarify further, I would really like it if in t8 even the best guilds dont get to to the final boss of the zones for a month or so, progression each week to more nad more named all the while though. Then they finally beat the bosses of the zones after gearing up on the 8 named before hand. Meanwhile your less uber guilds maybe only get 1 or 2 named a week for the first month because they just arent as "hardcore" (for lack of a better term) than the other guilds. There is no way with the tier system that this game will ever have the gear progression bottlenecks eq1 did. Hopefully from KoS to EoF we will see some, because its ridiculous to think that the raiders havent geared up in KoS, but as soon as t8 comes out, all this gear is rendered obsolete.

MystaSkrat

07-27-2006, 01:46 AM

I dunno if any dev's ever posted it was a mistake, but I don't think ishbu's the only one with that opinion either :smileyhappy:

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 01:55 AM

<P>The ideal time frame me from Entry to Completion of a Large Raid zone like labs would be 2-3 Months.</P> <P>I would absolutely kill for raid zones so hard, complicated, scripted and engrossing that each mob was as difficult as a Chel'drak or 3 Princes type encounter. A raid zone where each mini boss took multiple attempts, wipes and weeks worth of strats and figuring out to defeat.</P> <P>Then create another raid zone, With better loot but Mechanically and technically harder encounters. Have the bosses hard enough that loot from the 1st zone is needed to defeat it.</P> <P>Repeat for 3-4 Zones.</P> <P>Bam Progression. Both in a loot sense and in a difficulty, and Zone sense.</P> <P> </P>

vinterskugge

07-27-2006, 02:07 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <P>The ideal time frame me from Entry to Completion of a Large Raid zone like labs would be 2-3 Months.</P> <P>I would absolutely kill for raid zones so hard, complicated, scripted and engrossing that each mob was as difficult as a Chel'drak or 3 Princes type encounter. A raid zone where each mini boss took multiple attempts, wipes and weeks worth of strats and figuring out to defeat.</P> <P>Then create another raid zone, With better loot but Mechanically and technically harder encounters. Have the bosses hard enough that loot from the 1st zone is needed to defeat it.</P> <P>Repeat for 3-4 Zones.</P> <P>Bam Progression. Both in a loot sense and in a difficulty, and Zone sense</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><3

Keldo

07-27-2006, 02:08 AM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Problem with roadblock style progression is you still need 'easy' or at least 'farmable' things to gear up on.EQ1 was all about progression but there was still 'easy money' mobs that you had to put the time in farming to gear up for the progression mobs. Temple of Veeshan -> Sleeper Key mobs -> Primals -> NToV, Elemental molds -> Elemental Gods -> Time, Ikkinz/Yxxta/Time -> Uqua -> Qvic farm fest -> Ink`tu/Txevu/Tacvi, etc. Sure the progression roadblocks are tough, but some of those things are easy, farmable things off trash / bosses that are pathetic. The difference is simply you can't skip them.This isn't a defense of relic, but a critique of the mentality that everything needs to be extremely difficult from the get go. After every tough area or roadblock mob, the reward was often an easy farm zone which allowed you to gear up your guild without dipping into content you had already progressed past (ie, progression works, faster guilds move on, away from competition with slower guilds).A good example of this in EQ2 would have been if they made relic drop from DT only, but drop as it does now - from trash. Relic in Lab was a mistake I'm sure they don't want to repeat, but at this point it is simply too late.<div></div><p>Also one other thing, then mentality that the hardest mobs should also drop the best gear is absent (generally speaking) in progression. Often times the hardest mobs are simply roadblocks, their loot is not good. Aaryonar was tougher than most of NToV, but his loot was terrible. The reward was you got into NToV, Vyemm's loot generally sucked, but it allowed you access to Vulak who was easy but loot owned. Theres tons of examples of this. Is this right just because EQ1 did it? No, not really, its just the experience most of us are basing our evaluation of EQ2 content on. These same arguments took place then.</p>One more edit! A good example of how EQ1 would have handled 'contested' content instead of instancing everything. They would have instanced only choke points. Deathtoll would still be instanced, but most other contested would simply be 'flags' that allowed you to kill them and move on. Killing 3 contested and updating your quest allows you to enter The Lair of Kerafyrm or something, which is like Plane of Time to Deathtoll's elemental planes. This style of contesting mobs allows them to be more accessable to the raiding population as a whole, because after the top guilds beat them and move on, they are doing bigger and better things with their time, instead of the same old every week. Just some ideas~<p>and noone likes my everyone needs Rift complete idea eh ;/</p><p>Message Edited by Keldoth on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:19 PM</span>

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 02:30 AM

I agree Keldoth, no body says their can't be a starter raid zone something like the guid raids would be perfect. Or Leave something like relic in, make it legendary and have it drop off trash off raid zone #1, this along with group attained legendary and quested stuff plus gear from the previous tier, should be enough to help you break into the 1st raid zone and start at least beating the 1st few encounters.

Keldo

07-27-2006, 02:36 AM

The biggest problem working against progression in EQ2 is the teir system. Making every teir's raids completely useless for the next teir destroys any raid progression theme. It also makes things extremely difficult to itemize, which is why they keep making so many mistakes and having to completely overhaul systems.<div></div>

auk

07-27-2006, 03:21 AM

Yeah, relic might be too good for what it is. I don't have any opinion on that... but I do not think changing lockouts is the answer. At least not setting a 6 day lock-out from the get-go. 18 hours, 36 hours ok, but locking out a guild who is trying to learn the first encounters for an entire week is excessive. Maybe your guilds have never had such problems where an entire session is spent on a single encounter, but there are those out there that do. An inexperienced raid force has only one way to get that experience - a lot of wipes. Eventually, they'll all learn how to work together, how to counter the typical epic tricks, clear all the way to vyemm without any wipes, and find themselves 3-grouping A Shadowy Presence in HoS on their first ever time in the zone. Thats probably not a big deal to you all, who knows, but for a bunch of people who never really raided EQ2 before, it is. I'm just trying to make the point that a 6 day lockout for failure *just because* of relic is overkill.The first step to progression is learning how to raid. If relic is too good of a bonus for those at that point, go ahead and nerf it.<div></div>

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 03:27 AM

<FONT color=#ff0000></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>auk wrote:<BR>Yeah, relic might be too good for what it is. I don't have any opinion on that... but I do not think changing lockouts is the answer. At least not setting a 6 day lock-out from the get-go. 18 hours, 36 hours ok, but locking out a guild who is trying to learn the first encounters for an entire week is excessive.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Why is it excessive? The Game shouldn't be ezmode with continues like a console game, their needs to be consequences to failure.</FONT></P> <P> Maybe your guilds have never had such problems where an entire session is spent on a single encounter, but there are those out there that do. An inexperienced raid force has only one way to get that experience - a lot of wipes.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Guess what, we all did go through exactly what you describe, we don't hit cap and automatically learn how to raid, the only difference is we went through that challenge, that adversity during T5 or T6, rather than T7. Why should it be any different now?</FONT></P> <P> Eventually, they'll all learn how to work together, how to counter the typical epic tricks, clear all the way to vyemm without any wipes, and find themselves 3-grouping A Shadowy Presence in HoS on their first ever time in the zone. Thats probably not a big deal to you all, who knows, but for a bunch of people who never really raided EQ2 before, it is.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Yup your right, they will eventually, but handing it to them isn't the solution. The learning is just as important as anything else.</FONT></P> <P><BR><BR>I'm just trying to make the point that a 6 day lockout for failure *just because* of relic is overkill.<BR><BR>The first step to progression is learning how to raid. If relic is too good of a bonus for those at that point, go ahead and nerf it.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>That's what easier and starter raids and guild raids are for. to Learn the basics.</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

vinterskugge

07-27-2006, 03:43 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> auk wrote:<BR>Yeah, relic might be too good for what it is. I don't have any opinion on that... but I do not think changing lockouts is the answer. At least not setting a 6 day lock-out from the get-go. 18 hours, 36 hours ok, but locking out a guild who is trying to learn the first encounters for an entire week is excessive. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This isn't really a good reason. If you can kill the trash leading up to him then you can kill the first named easily. Nobody is going to spent any amount of time learning this encounter because it's so easy.

auk

07-27-2006, 04:10 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><font color="#ff0000"></font> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>auk wrote:Yeah, relic might be too good for what it is. I don't have any opinion on that... but I do not think changing lockouts is the answer. At least not setting a 6 day lock-out from the get-go. 18 hours, 36 hours ok, but locking out a guild who is trying to learn the first encounters for an entire week is excessive.</p> <p><font color="#ff3300">Why is it excessive? The Game shouldn't be ezmode with continues like a console game, their needs to be consequences to failure.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff33">So a failure lockout of 18 or 36 hours (instead of the 6 it is now, or the 6 days you seem to want) is "ezmode"? I don't follow. So someone can try again in a day or two... instead of a week. I don't see how that makes it easier.</font></p> <p> Maybe your guilds have never had such problems where an entire session is spent on a single encounter, but there are those out there that do. An inexperienced raid force has only one way to get that experience - a lot of wipes.</p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Guess what, we all did go through exactly what you describe, we don't hit cap and automatically learn how to raid, the only difference is we went through that challenge, that adversity during T5 or T6, rather than T7. Why should it be any different now?</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffff00">I didn't say it should be any different now.. unless you expect everyone to go back to T5 when they're level 70 to learn how to raid gray mobs. I don't know how you could possibly take out of my post that I think it should be any different now.</font></font></p> <p> Eventually, they'll all learn how to work together, how to counter the typical epic tricks, clear all the way to vyemm without any wipes, and find themselves 3-grouping A Shadowy Presence in HoS on their first ever time in the zone. Thats probably not a big deal to you all, who knows, but for a bunch of people who never really raided EQ2 before, it is.</p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Yup your right, they will eventually, but handing it to them isn't the solution. The learning is just as important as anything else.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Who is saying to hand anyone anything?I think people should be able to go back and try again in a day or two instead of an entire week if they fail to kill any named... so I guess I just want to be handed everything. Yeah...</font>I'm just trying to make the point that a 6 day lockout for failure *just because* of relic is overkill.The first step to progression is learning how to raid. If relic is too good of a bonus for those at that point, go ahead and nerf it.<font color="#ff0000">That's what easier and starter raids and guild raids are for. to Learn the basics.</font></p> <div></div><font color="#ffff00">Easier than lab? I thought everyone was saying lab is the easiest. Yeah, people could go back and learn in T6, I don't have a problem with that. Probably a better way to do it anyway. The starter raids don't exist yet, I know they will soon, but aren't they only x2? In any case, I still don't agree with a one week failure lockout. Thats the ONLY THING I don't agree with.Let me stress that, so you don't continue to assume I'm some nub who wants everything handed to me.<b>THE ONLY THING I AM SAYING IS THERE SHOULD NOT BE A ONE WEEK FAILURE LOCKOUT ON LAB.</b>If that means nerfing relic instead I could care less.</font> <hr> </blockquote><hr></blockquote></div>

TwistedFaith

07-27-2006, 04:21 AM

<blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:Has a developer actually posted that the relic was a mistake, or is it just Ishbu's opinion?<hr></blockquote>Posted I dont know. But many differend developers have told many different players it was a mistake the way things have happened.I dont think its a big secret that i am NOT on good terms with the people at SOE but even I have been told that it was a mistake and will not happen again in EoF.Thanks for questioning my validity though you useless no name piece of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<hr></blockquote>wow, someone please give this kid back his toys before he explodes.dude if your going to start getting so excited and defensive about a silly game it's time to step away from the keyboard. [Removed for Content]!

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 04:23 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>valleyboy1 wrote:<BR><BR>Im a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] who comes on a message board about a game and likes to talk big about real life because im too useless to do anything in game and too stupid to realize nobody cares about my real life. I lose at eq2 and life.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah. Couldnt agree more.

TwistedFaith

07-27-2006, 04:34 AM

<blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><P></P><HR><P>valleyboy1 wrote:<BR><BR>Im a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] who comes on a message board about a game and likes to talk big about real life because im too useless to do anything in game and too stupid to realize nobody cares about my real life. I lose at eq2 and life.<BR></P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah. Couldnt agree more.<hr></blockquote>wow! maturity at it's best.

Yunga_511

07-27-2006, 04:38 AM

<DIV>Accept it, You Lose at Real Life when u Buy that copy of EQ2 and Pickup That Sword or Wand....</DIV>

MystaSkrat

07-27-2006, 04:54 AM

I think every single thread I've kept an eye on today has been derailed. And thoroughly too!

Miroh

07-27-2006, 05:38 AM

<b><i><font color="#ff0000"> Bottom line....This arguement has become stupid after the 1st couple of post...You can't expect people that don't raid or hardly do to agree with those that do raid. The raid progression has turned to crap after T5 same with the itemization. Now if the people that farm relic 24/7 could have actually seen how itemization has changed and gone down hill we wouldn't have this arguement.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> But in the end...most of the people have no idea and feel just to get over powered loot from trash mobs and trivialize the way the zones were intended by finding the loop hole SoE left open allowing them to zone in 2 times aday....3 times if they do a line.</font></i></b><div></div>

Miroh

07-27-2006, 06:58 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div>Actually you didnt say anything, <font color="#ff0000">you just questioned my integrity</font>. Thats all you did. </div> <div> </div> <div>Like I said, you brought nothing but usless crap to this thread.</div><hr></blockquote> <font color="#ff0000"><b><i>Thats not much.....just playin <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></i></b></font></div>

R2Chie

07-27-2006, 07:13 AM

We are a casual / family type raiders (that sounds so cheesy), we raid 3 times a week, we have a semi-large guild some of us love to raid, raid leaders especially love to raid and organise things for others and only few done the dt access quests, only now have we got people working on the dt access quests and most have 1-2 dragons missing. As it stands weve been in dt a few times, only 3 of us actually have access, one of which being myself as I knew what the reward was and the raid leaders worked towards getting our guild dt access by accumulating nearly 1000 individual deaths to lord vyemm alone never mind the rest of the dragons. We tried hard, we got there in the end and it was all a very fun learning experience full of repair bills and happy nights, we have ALWAYS been against relic farming of any kind what so ever, and said it would never happen and to look elsewhere if thats what ppl wanted as we done zones properly and always properly. We have killed all 4 dragons, why should we as an example you understand - then have our dt access taken away after as a raid force taking down everything that was required of us, you see we dont have the same 24 ppl raiding 3 times a week.. and it would take yet more and more time, we are good raiders and proud of it and we have a good fun time while doing so and we dont take ourselfs to seriously, but using us as an example - why would we then have our dt access removed after working so hard to actually get it? Luckily we have most working on the quest now they see the select few who ran around doing the quests wearing the rewards of it, but still.. And for dt being such an 'incredibly hard' place and hardest end game zone, our first run got us straight to tarinax, after reading the forums i expected it to be a wipe fest. We are good at what we do and have a giggle on voice comms and I see no reason as to why you would want to implement this, although I dont like the fact that one guild now has an ex-raid guild member zoning them into dt each week as I dont think they deserve it, I see this point.. But there is no point on the same hand punishing people like ourselfs who have all worked very hard towards acheiving this. God am i sick to the teeth of seeing "LAB RELIC RUN" advertised in 60-69 and it makes me sick really, sorry Im not sure why but its just incredibly lame. I am not elitist in any shape or form, but i believe in doing zones correctly and the way they were designed to be. I honestly believe that if trash can drop relic armour then killing said trash should get you a full lockout timer. You get the rewards means you should get the lockout and simply this is not the case. Relic, some parts of it atleast are actually ok, and i would not like to see it nerfed because of a minority of people who seem to be abusing what is fundamentally a silly lockout timer. Plate tank wise - you could theoretically tank the whole of t7 raids in relic mitigation wise and being able to do it on a 6 hour timer ?? makes no sense at all. Make the lockout timer upon killing the first mob in these zones a full lockout timer and thats the problem solved in my opinion, it would also mean that the people doing it the proper way it was intended to be done dont feel hard done by which is truly the case imo. As for people saying casual players should get nice stuff to - this would also sort that problem, you can still get nice stuff, but you wont be able to do it on a 6 hour timer, youll be getting fabled gear like the rest of us on a proper lockout timer. Unless ofcourse your just whining because you want it your way and fast illegitimate way, in which case I dont believe in it at all I am afraid. <div></div>

SourChikn

07-27-2006, 07:29 AM

im sure this has been established.. but relic farmers are lame... i hope come expansion there is nothing like it and you people wearing you 1 Fabled tag replace it with a treasured piece of crap that the raiding guilds can get a good giggle about.<div></div>

lemey

07-27-2006, 07:57 AM

<P>so what did we learn here,</P> <P> </P> <P>Miroh is soooo annoyed that his farmed loot isnt selling (because everyone and there chcken is wearing relic apparently) which imo is a good enough reason for it to stay exactly how it is <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>and ish is trying to get itsself a timeout for personal attacks</P> <P> </P> <P>oh and miroh, realy, EC never farmed relic even once huh? *cough*bs*cough* </P><p>Message Edited by lemey on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:58 PM</span>

Yunga_511

07-27-2006, 08:45 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lemey wrote:<BR> <P>oh and miroh, realy, EC never farmed relic even once huh? *cough*bs*cough* </P> <P>Message Edited by lemey on <SPAN class=date_text>07-26-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:58 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>See Problem with that is, The **Relic Farmers** farm relics, EVERY SINGLE [Removed for Content] RAIDING GUILD HAS FARMED RELIC AT LEAST ONCE, BUT THEY DONT GO OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again, they Move to Harder stuff.</P> <P> </P> <P>So Whats Planned for the people who dont raid but do relic runs after they have [Removed for Content] themselfs out? Well lets see....COMPLAIN THERE ISNT MORE TODO.</P> <P>Relic is only for Hard Encounters Like King Dreyek..../sarcasm off</P><p>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:47 PM</span>

Yunga_511

07-27-2006, 08:58 AM

<P>BTW, If Relic Runs aren't Considered a Exploit....Then Why The [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] did they Fix MO......Its the same Basic Idea...Maybe they should Instance MO /killself</P> <P>You Abusing the Lockout timer...Doesn't Matter if your casual, Doesnt Matter if you have a Job and can only play for 45 mins each day</P> <P>We all Pay the Same subscription, and in the Words of Dizzi himself, YOUR NOT SPECIAL!!</P>

StrollingWolf

07-27-2006, 09:00 AM

<DIV>What we are going to learn here is that fighting amongst eachother is bad, so let's cut it out and discuss the topic.</DIV>

Miroh

07-27-2006, 09:05 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>lemey wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>so what did we learn here,</p> <p>Miroh is soooo annoyed that his farmed loot isnt selling (because everyone and there chcken is wearing relic apparently) which imo is a good enough reason for it to stay exactly how it is <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>and ish is trying to get itsself a timeout for personal attacks</p> <p>oh and miroh, realy, EC never farmed relic even once huh? *cough*bs*cough* </p><p>Message Edited by lemey on <span class="date_text">07-26-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:58 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><b><i><font color="#ff0000"> My loot sells just fine. Why you think I'm on the top 10 server wealthiest lol and pretty high on the 100 WW.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> And no, EC never farmed relic. Honestly, why would we need to just like the rest of the "real" raiding guilds</font></i></b></div>

Haapy

07-27-2006, 11:12 AM

<div></div>Seems there is a misconception here as to what relic armor is between people. I dont think anyone will change their minds or their opinions on the issue, and aside from a couple of episodes, this thread has been civil and pretty much point for point. This is pretty rare for a hot topic to go like this and I would like to thank everyone for keeping discussion relatively flame-free <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />After getting some sleep (not enough), I think the best way I can state my opinion on relics is this: All the relic armor is really a Thurg armor 2.0, allow me to explain.1. Thurg armor was the "introduction" to mini-raiding in SoV, at the time the expansion came out, this was the easiest and earliest for most people. Home of many pickup raids that farmed place for hours each day.2. Some of the pieces forsome classes never really got replaced thus stopping progression at that level (Kael and SS armor was basically the same thing, dont count), almost every guild had members in some of this armor long after they started to clear NToV.3. All pieces dropped from trash mobs on a fast respawn timer, drops were about as frequent.4. At first those runs required at first mini-raids through zone, later farming became grouppable, and after another expansion, soloable.5. The quest was 1 no-drop piece + 3 gems.Now this is exactly the same as the current relic armor situation. In every respect. I dont think there is anyone that thinks now Kael farm runs were wrong, not at this time. Back when SoV came out though, there were exactly the same complains from exactly the same demographic, citing exactly the same reasons and solutions. Fast forward a few years and the point is moot. Same will happen to these relic runs. In 1 year no one will be doing them, except to 1-group a twink alt for some decent gear. It is unfortunate that KoS expansion is not even a half of what SoV was, perhaps when combined with the new one coming out it will be, and the point about progression will become moot as well (and we all know it will, 1 or 2 or even 3 expansions down the road). Increasing the timer to 18 hrs would not really hurt anything, but making it 6 days would be too much for what it really is. I do wish that SoE has changed the fabled tag to legendary on the pieces, but keep the stats and look the same, that would be in line with it's eq1's counterparts <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

Methesa

07-27-2006, 11:32 AM

Lets make the whole game just for Miroh and people like him (hardcore raiders). Forget about the other people who cant play 10+ hours per day, and want to feel as tho they are upgrading the equipment too.What i have never understood in MMO's is why people get so upset over other people getting loot. Im just not sure why that would upset them. If you play the game for you and your guild, i assure you, you will have a better time in game. Unless of course you get fun out of trying to belittle the people that cant or dont want to play as much as you. And i know that is the case with miroh <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Yunga_511

07-27-2006, 12:42 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Methesa wrote:<BR>Lets make the whole game just for Miroh and people like him (hardcore raiders). Forget about the other people who cant play 10+ hours per day, and want to feel as tho they are upgrading the equipment too.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P><BR>You Serious.....No one listens.../sigh</P> <P>Raiding does NOT take 10+ hours a day....thats Overkill...Please Unless you know what your talking about and how long things take don't post about something you..seem to not know about<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

EasternKing

07-27-2006, 01:08 PM

<P></P> <HR> Miroh wrote : <P><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG><EM>My loot sells just fine. Why you think I'm on the top 10 server wealthiest lol and pretty high on the 100 WW.<BR><BR> And no, EC never farmed relic. Honestly, why would we need to just like the rest of the "real" raiding guilds</EM></STRONG></FONT><BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>hahah so by meaning the " real " raiding guilds didnt farm relic , miroh was that before or after they all geared up killing the HEROIC downarrow mobs in the vestibule in labs when there was no lockout timer ?</P> <P>i call absolute BS that the " real " raid guilds didnt farm / or use relic for there progression in T7</P> <P>if id seen any of the " real " raid guilds here from week 3 of the expansion crying like i see them doing now that relic is going to ruin progression or has now ruined it and needs changing then you in the " real " guilds would have a leg to stand on</P> <P>however miroh non of the " real " giuilds said [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] till just recently when they themselves have TAKEN THE MAXIMUM BENEFIT from relic gear</P> <P>so why should the people who are 2-3months behind on the raid scene not have the oppertunity to enjoy the benefits of using relic gear miroh ?</P>

vinterskugge

07-27-2006, 02:08 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P>hahah so by meaning the " real " raiding guilds didnt farm relic , miroh was that before or after they all geared up killing the HEROIC downarrow mobs in the vestibule in labs when there was no lockout timer ?</P> <P>i call absolute BS that the " real " raid guilds didnt farm / or use relic for there progression in T7</P> <P>if id seen any of the " real " raid guilds here from week 3 of the expansion crying like i see them doing now that relic is going to ruin progression or has now ruined it and needs changing then you in the " real " guilds would have a leg to stand on</P> <P>however miroh non of the " real " giuilds said [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] till just recently when they themselves have TAKEN THE MAXIMUM BENEFIT from relic gear</P> <P>so why should the people who are 2-3months behind on the raid scene not have the oppertunity to enjoy the benefits of using relic gear miroh ?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>People have been complaining about this for months, it's not just started in this thread.</P> <P>It's not casual players actually owning the armour that's the problem. The problem is that they've basically been handed it on a plate. They've not done anything to deserve it. They've killed trash mobs that don't pose a challenge to anyone and can be single grouped, and they've got the best gear in the game. I'd be fine seeing casual players wearing relic, but only if they've done something to actually earn it.</P>

Yunga_511

07-27-2006, 02:16 PM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote: <P>People have been complaining about this for months, it's not just started in this thread.</P> <P>It's not casual players actually owning the armour that's the problem. The problem is that they've basically been handed it on a plate. They've not done anything to deserve it. They've killed trash mobs that don't pose a challenge to anyone and can be single grouped, and they've got the best gear in the game. I'd be fine seeing casual players wearing relic, but only if they've done something to actually earn it.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Exactly, Its Exploiting The Drop Rate and The Lockout Timer...</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

Emerix

07-27-2006, 02:36 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miroh69 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emerix wrote:<BR> Thats one of the crappiest attitudes . Go farm Chel' Drak if you oh so great and bored . Relic stuff sucks anyway but its the only stuff normal casual players can get . Just because you and your oh so great raid guild can get all they want quite easily it doesnt mean the casual gamers who dont have all time of the world shouldnt get some nice stuff .<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <FONT color=#ff0000><B><I>Aww, someone doesn't like raiders. Honestly, I was happy with how T5 was, the gear set you appart. Could tell who were raiding and who wasn't simply by what kind of fabled gear they had. But now? pfft lol, lame really.<BR><BR> And I am sure we would farm Chel'Drak if the lockout was 6 hours like some zones.....plus he's a named mob...not trash that takes 2 groups to kill....</I></B></FONT><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>*thud* im a raider myself . but i hate people who think they are something better . And now you can stilll see whos raiding and who isnt . since relic is trash from trashmobs .

vinterskugge

07-27-2006, 02:45 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Emerix wrote: <P>*thud* im a raider myself . but i hate people who think they are something better . And now you can stilll see whos raiding and who isnt . since relic is trash from trashmobs .<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You're a troub - if relic is such trash, can you tell me where I can get a better BP, legs and bracers?

EasternKing

07-27-2006, 03:02 PM

<DIV>vinterskugge you remember when they nerfed lycuem loot ? ....i distinctley remember makin a post stating that the loot in that zone from the named is now on par with relic and in many cases relic is equal or even better than the named loot tables ....and was told by all the real guilds that i should shut it cos lyceum is easy and that it has no access so the loot should not be any better than relic loot, </DIV> <DIV>yet in this post we have the very same raiders calling out and saying that relic '" now " is unbalanced and need to be looked at</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we all got to hear the same reasons for why lyceum loot should be nerfed .....its easy, its a push over, its got no access quest, its handing some of the best loot in the game to people who dont deserve it nor havent earned it......so /shrug to this now rising about relic</DIV> <DIV>well labs is easy a pushover and no access needed the mobs apart from vyemm are a joke and are all a ton easier than any of the named in lyceum</DIV> <DIV>HoS is a joke zone everything upto the bloodbeast / warder is a joke of an epic ...them 2 aint so much better these days the loot absolutley blows from the zone</DIV> <DIV>DT lolz the mighty DeathToll the first 3named are like cube mobs on ravasect isle, tarinax is still a minor challenge due to his blurs and frontal wiping a raid with a miss timed turn......i never beaten cruor yet, but there again i have only pulled it once in over 11 visits and again i heard its loot table sucks as well</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so all in all loot from T7 zones contested imo is weak and underpowered, relic is exactley where i belive soe wanted it to be, then they decided to have no lvl cap increase which seen a massive nerf to all fabled, apart from relic, so they wouldnt have massivly overpowered items appearing in T8, my guess is well see all the stuff we had in T7 before it got nerfed, just like soe always do before they realese new content then nerf [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] then give it us in the "new" content back what it was pre nerf ....</DIV>

Miroh

07-27-2006, 03:24 PM

<div></div> <b><i><font color="#ff0000">Yet again, no one listens. lol Why would we need to farm relic, in-between the named drops and the few pieces of relic we equiped ourselves rather easily. The few pieces everyone got were quickly put in as back-up gear due to the named dropped gear was far better. </font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> Before I joined EC, Shadowed Strife and EC just about went in at the same time, both killing named mobs, doing it the way it was intended, not this getting geared up from trash loot crap you see now.....Half the people on relic runs don't even raid....ANY. What relic we got was from doing the whole zone, not this 6 hour lockout relic raid.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> So please, actually pay attention instead of throwing this stupid crap out here "So you got your relic so now it's time to close the door on the rest huh?" Because it's stupid and ignorant....When it first was being raided some guilds went in non stop just killed trash for relic for 2-4 days straight, that right there is exploiting seeings that wasn't they way the zone was intended.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> You can ask anyone, Shadowed Strife and Eternal Chaos both took on these zones killing Named mobs while the rest obviously sucked too bad decided to farm it. We didn't have great gear...our T6 gear was worthless due to the huge change in gear in T7...treasured making T6 fabled look pathetic....what did we do? We struggled and we beat the zones. So don't give me this crap about OHHHH you're in a raiding guild, you have the leet loot to do it...We do now...we didn't then and we still did it the right way.</font></i></b><blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<hr>Miroh wrote :<p><font color="#ff0000"><strong><em>My loot sells just fine. Why you think I'm on the top 10 server wealthiest lol and pretty high on the 100 WW. And no, EC never farmed relic. Honestly, why would we need to just like the rest of the "real" raiding guilds</em></strong></font></p><hr><p><font color="#ffffff">hahah so by meaning the " real " raiding guilds didnt farm relic , miroh was that before or after they all geared up killing the HEROIC downarrow mobs in the vestibule in labs when there was no lockout timer ?</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">i call absolute BS that the " real " raid guilds didnt farm / or use relic for there progression in T7<font color="#ff0000"> (We did but what we got was from when we cleared the whole zone and not just the trash mobs)</font></font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">if id seen any of the " real " raid guilds here from week 3 of the expansion crying like i see them doing now that relic is going to ruin progression or has now ruined it and needs changing then you in the " real " guilds would have a leg to stand on <font color="#ff0000">(There is no progression to destroy in T7.....there hardly was in T6)</font></font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">however miroh non of the " real " giuilds said [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] till just recently when they themselves have TAKEN THE MAXIMUM BENEFIT from relic gear <font color="#ff0000">(No real raid guild, I am speaking of NPU, Dissolution, Second Dawn, EC etc etc has taken the "Maximum" benefit as you call it, if anything recruits get it.)</font></font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">so why should the people who are 2-3months behind on the raid scene not have the oppertunity to enjoy the benefits of using relic gear miroh ? <font color="#ff0000">(Because alot didn't 2-3 months ago, they did it with what they had and took on the named mobs and got the real rewards from it vs no skilled players who have their mind set on "Oh how can I take on epics if I am not full fabled or close" We sure did....you can too.)</font></font></p><font color="#ffffff"></font><hr></blockquote><i><font color="#ff0000"></font></i><b><i><font color="#ff0000"></font></i></b><div></div>

Miroh

07-27-2006, 03:31 PM

<b><i><font color="#ff0000">I think it's so funny that so many have their minds set to "You farmed it and got all you needed so now you are trying to stop it" It's funny, I have like 2 pieces of Relic in my bags for backup....why do I have just two? Because I got better items from killing named mobs. I was raiding with T6 fabled gear and T7 treasured as everyone did at one point.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> You can still get relic by getting a 6 day lockout or however long it is and get better gear to go along with it if most would man up and stop crying about their armor and do the zones the way they were intended...</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> This is technically an exploit but yet, I feel SoE doesn't care........Make the lock out longer, make it only drop off named and make the gems needed more rare</font></i></b><div></div>

Khurghan

07-27-2006, 03:44 PM

Actually it's not <i>technically</i> an exploit.<div></div>

Rinio

07-27-2006, 05:08 PM

<DIV>I dont wear any relic at all..do I win?</DIV>

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 05:57 PM

Ok, can anyone give me a good reason as to why someone should get very good, quality, fabled gear, some of it with effects for killing blue trash mobs? Just one good reason from anyone.It is safe to say already that killing blue trash is not conductive of risk vs reward. It certantly isnt a challenging feat at all. And there is no lockout for doing so. The game itself deems only killing trash and not killing named as a failure. Why should failure be rewarded so highly that people want to do it day after day after day because it yields the greatest rewards?Seriously, can anyone give a good reason why failure should be rewarded?

Krontak

07-27-2006, 06:23 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR>Ok, can anyone give me a good reason as to why someone should get very good, quality, fabled gear, some of it with effects for killing blue trash mobs? Just one good reason from anyone.<BR><BR>It is safe to say already that killing blue trash is not conductive of risk vs reward. It certantly isnt a challenging feat at all. And there is no lockout for doing so. The game itself deems only killing trash and not killing named as a failure. Why should failure be rewarded so highly that people want to do it day after day after day because it yields the greatest rewards?<BR><BR>Seriously, can anyone give a good reason why failure should be rewarded?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Cause it'll make your veins pop out of your forehead...*grabs* popcorn to watch the show.

Miroh

07-27-2006, 06:27 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:Ok, can anyone give me a good reason as to why someone should get very good, quality, fabled gear, some of it with effects for killing blue trash mobs? Just one good reason from anyone.It is safe to say already that killing blue trash is not conductive of risk vs reward. It certantly isnt a challenging feat at all. And there is no lockout for doing so. The game itself deems only killing trash and not killing named as a failure. Why should failure be rewarded so highly that people want to do it day after day after day because it yields the greatest rewards?Seriously, can anyone give a good reason why failure should be rewarded?<hr></blockquote><b><i><font color="#ff0000"> Good god man, you never made more perfect sense. That just sums it all up right there, wish I coulda said that instead of these long drawn out post. </font></i></b></div>

IllusiveThoughts

07-27-2006, 06:29 PM

from the test notes it appears the lockout timers were doubled on failure to 12 hours and the success lowered to 5days.

Yunga_511

07-27-2006, 06:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Lets put it this way, SoE Don't Revolve the Game Around Your Life....They Take the Majority of Players opinion and Decide...</P> <P>What I Don't get as a raider is they took Relic out of Halls of Seeing, CLEARLY the trash in HoS is Harder than LaB or LoA, You Would think Maybe Because its harder, They Would keep it in....but meh</P> <HR> Dear EQ2 Dev's <P>Instead of a Raid Zone (EG. Halls of Seeing) Dropping 0% Relic, You Put Relic Back in and Make the trash in Lab/Loa And any Other zone that drops relic As Hard as Halls of Seeing Trash....Especially those Mystbound Enforcers /wink</P> <P>Otherwise, Yea its a Slap in the face for People who put in more effort...</P> <P>Sencerly, Quill (Angry Necromancer Rat..err I Means Mouse)</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

Yunga_511

07-27-2006, 06:32 PM

Shizzirri

07-27-2006, 06:37 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yunga_511 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> from the test notes it appears the lockout timers were doubled on failure to 12 hours and the success lowered to 5days.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hmm...Thats a lil Improvement..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So you can farm relic two times a day instead of 4 times?</P> <P>Eitherway again I'll mention the whole the dev's are adding "practice raids" that drop legendary relic, now why the hell would a casual starting raid guild do these raids when they can do easier trash mobs in lab/lyceum and get better loot than the practice raid.../shrug</P>

Miroh

07-27-2006, 06:41 PM

<b><i><font color="#ff0000"> Wow....awhole 12 hour lockout. That'll slow it down...Still...risk vs reward....not reaping the rewards of failure.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> Also, we had maybe one or two pieces of relic drop from Halls of Seeing....just super rare....like it should be in every zone.</font></i></b><div></div>

Nebul

07-27-2006, 06:41 PM

What I don't understand is why some of you people keep referring to yourselfs as "Real Raiding Guilds"? Some of us have jobs and social lifes and can't dedicate 12 hours a day to a game. How does this make us fake and you "real"?

Yunga_511

07-27-2006, 06:44 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NebulaD wrote:<BR> What I don't understand is why some of you people keep referring to yourselfs as "Real Raiding Guilds"? Some of us have jobs and social lifes and can't dedicate 12 hours a day to a game. How does this make us fake and you "real"?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>FYI before i Blow my Mind.....Ive said it before, Ill say it again, <FONT size=7><FONT color=#ff0000>WE</FONT> <FONT color=#ff3300>SPEND LESS THAN 2 hours RAIDING to Clear LABS, NOT 10, Not 11, not 12 OMG!!!!!</FONT></FONT></P> <P><BR>Sigh, here we go again with the "I have a Job and a social Life!* Dude.......WE ALL DO..OMG</P> <P>It Doesnt Make you Fake, Fact is were all Equal...but making relic as easy as it is to get atm is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]slap in the face to the people who want to Spend 2 hours raiding..</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:49 AM</span>

Miroh

07-27-2006, 06:48 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>NebulaD wrote:<div></div>What I don't understand is why some of you people keep referring to yourselfs as "Real Raiding Guilds"? Some of us have jobs and social lifes and can't dedicate 12 hours a day to a game. How does this make us fake and you "real"?<hr></blockquote> <b><i><font color="#ff0000"> Ignorance is bliss....</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> Funny, most of the members of my guild have families, have jobs and/or going to college. Have 2 doctors in ours and one practicing. So much for your theory huh? Doesn't take 12 hours to do a raid, if it does maybe you should think about a different game or sticking to quest. Edit: Hell we did labs in 1 hour....so much for that needing to have no life to raid 12 hours huh?</font></i></b></div><p>Message Edited by Miroh69 on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:50 AM</span>

Tazr

07-27-2006, 06:58 PM

<P>If clearing trash results in a failure, then yeah it seems dumb to drop relic. If killing trash is not the risk vs reward, then yeah it seems dumb to drop relic. Those are good and valid points. It seems to me though, that after reading the posts for and against there is something in common. The high end guilds are saying, if you were in our shoes you would see what we mean, and the guilds that are farming are saying if you were in our shoes you would see what I mean.</P> <P>You are vastly different raid forces, come up with a solution that helps both instead of trying to alienate the other out. News flash ish and crew, casual raiders do not have the desire or time, to fail constantly over and over again on mobs, thats why they failed miserably in EQ1. So yes, relic gave casual guilds a way to cut down on the wiping and enjoy the game more. If you want to slap a 6 day lockout on it, then you just killed a great many guilds' fun, wtg.</P> <P>Do you guys remember Temple of Veeshan, I'm sure you do. Was there no risk vs reward on kiling the trash to get armor molds? Or did you just plough into north tov and clear it with your Kunark uber armor? Relic, does not kill progression. It may be wrong, it may be not risk vs reward, it may be disgusting that yellow and orange contested mobs drop worse armor. From everything I am seeing playing in T7, it looks just fine, we are having a blast and a ton of fun and the progression is as clear as day. </P> <P>My personal opinion, is that Lab should have 3 difficulties like poets. The higher the difficulty the harder the trash mobs, the harder the trash mobs the more chance of relic you get. Easy should be like 1 relic once in a blue moon, where as very difficult could be a chance at 4-6 relics but with majorly hard hitting maybe even *gasp* yellow trash like Lyceum. </P>

Nebul

07-27-2006, 06:59 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Miroh69 wrote:</P> <P><B><I><FONT color=#ff0000>Ignorance is bliss....</FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000> Funny, most of the members of my guild have families, have jobs and/or going to college. Have 2 doctors in ours and one practicing. So much for your theory huh? Doesn't take 12 hours to do a raid, if it does maybe you should think about a different game or sticking to quest.<BR><BR> Edit: Hell we did labs in 1 hour....so much for that needing to have no life to raid 12 hours huh?<BR></FONT></I></B></P> <P>Message Edited by Miroh69 on <SPAN class=date_text>07-27-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>07:50 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>All you have done so far is complain about how much better your guild is compared to everyone else. Are people farming relics at all effecting your guilds advancement or enjoyment of the game? Not at all end of discussion.<BR></DIV>

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 07:04 PM

Farming armor sets in eq1 was vastly different than in eq2. First off that armor set wasnt nice, not outstanding. If you killed real raid mobs you got superior gear. Thats just a fact.In this game there is no superior gear, its all more or less the same. Most importantly this game is not eq1 so saying mechanics that made sense there should apply here isnt going to work. The armor molds dropping off of trash there was a world of a difference than armor molds dropping off of trash in eq2. The level of difficulty and what you need to achieve it and how it progresses are as different as night and day.Oh and btw, Ive been a hardcore raider, Ive been a casual raider, and Ive been a non raider. I know very well what casual and non raiders should have for gear. Killing trash for gear comparable to anything else in game is not one of them. It was a mistake.

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 07:08 PM

<blockquote><hr>NebulaD wrote:What I don't understand is why some of you people keep referring to yourselfs as "Real Raiding Guilds"? Some of us have jobs and social lifes and can't dedicate 12 hours a day to a game. How does this make us fake and you "real"?<hr></blockquote>The newbie boards are under a different header. Since you have only posted 9 times I am sure you have failed to gain the understanding that most raiders in this game are not your stereotypical raiders from eq1. Reading comprehension and doing a little research on a subject before posting can go a long way.My guild cleared KoS of all raid content in under 8 hours this week. That is barely over an hour a day and not even 12 hours in total, in fact its only 66% of that. The real raiding guilds are the ones that kill the named, clear all zones, kill all mobs. You cant consider yourself a high end raid guild if you only clear 2 or 3 of the 5 zones and dont kill contested. No the arguement that we could kill contested but the good guild doesnt let us isnt a good excuse. Part of killing a contested is getting to it. There are real raiding guilds, those guilds that are trying to become real raiding guilds, and then casual raiding guilds as far as raiding and guilds are concerned. The big, core issues about raiding are better understood by the real raiding guilds because they have more hands on experience with it and see all of it, where as nobody else does.

Tazr

07-27-2006, 07:08 PM

<P>Mechanics has nothing to do with it. You could probably kill Aary with Kunark gear if you wiped enough, but having hte armor molds from trash mobs made it easier. I see no difference in the theory.</P> <P>Instead of preaching what a mistake it is, can you come up wtih something more constructive than 6 day lockout?</P>

Yunga_511

07-27-2006, 07:10 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> NebulaD wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>All you have done so far is complain about how much better your guild is compared to everyone else. Are people farming relics at all effecting your guilds advancement or enjoyment of the game? Not at all end of discussion.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And your better cause u have a social life and a job and can't Conceive of planning a FULL raid to Clear a Raid zone which takes at most 3 hours?<p>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:11 AM</span>

Nebul

07-27-2006, 07:12 PM

<DIV>Ish my post count is irrelevant here. Just because your guild can defeat the entire raid zone doesn't make you any more "real" than a guild that is trying but has not succeeded yet.</DIV>

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 07:16 PM

Ive said it a thousand times. NO RELIC DROPPING OFF OF TRASH. Period. Nothing fabled should come off trash mobs. Its bad enough that master spells do come off heroic trash mobs, we certantly dont need raid gear coming off them too.Having the armor molds helped to kill harder mobs wich got you better gear to kill even harder mobs in eq1. It was a continuous cycle that never got made obsolete because there were no tiers like we have in this game. Instead you kill trash and get the relic, grats you beat eq2 itemization! You dont need anything better than relic for anything (except maybe chel'drak and the derivine matron) but those arent even in KoS. Do you think you could kill the avatar of war in velious with nothing but armor mold gear or how about Vulak? Heck probably not even the 4th warder in sleepers tomb. Do you see the difference yet? There was a massive progression that made sense in eq1, there is not here. Relic is too good to drop off trash or should be made legendary, have the stats dropped by 10% and mitigation dropped by 20%. Lets see how many people do farming runs then. Oh wait, nobody would because that would only be gear to gear up a little more to kill the named, and you can get that done with t6 gear. Omg, it would actually be more beneficial to kill the named! What an insane idea! Making people actually want to kill the mobs instead of just the trash!Again though, relic dropping off trash is a horrible mistake and will be corrected in EoF to the best of my understanding. Eq1 raiding/progression/itemization is not even comparable to eq2 raiding/progression/itemization. Eq1 made sense but created problems. If they would just do eq2 exactly like eq1 only with the tiers so you could always start off fresh with the new tier things would be good. But of course you would still have tons of lesser raidrs whining, I need loot from deathtoll to beat chel'drak whose loot I need to beat EoF content! I paid for EoF so I should be able to walk into the first raid zone there and own it because it cost me 30bucks! What SOE needs to do is ignore all those people and realize how they are actualy ruining any chance this game has for some real progression.

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 07:17 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NebulaD wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ish my post count is irrelevant here. Just because your guild can defeat the entire raid zone doesn't make you any more "real" than a guild that is trying but has not succeeded yet.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The point is their, not trying. Not at all. Why would they? They can get better gear farming trash. Gear they will use primarily to trivialize the group and solo content they play in rather than use it to beat harder raid mobs.<BR>

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 07:18 PM

<blockquote><hr>NebulaD wrote:<DIV>Ish my post count is irrelevant here. Just because your guild can defeat the entire raid zone doesn't make you any more "real" than a guild that is trying but has not succeeded yet.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Actually its 100% relavent. This stupid discussion has gone on more times than anyone can count about life vs no life. Obviously your a newbie, as shown by your post count, and dont visit the boards enough to see one of the million threads where it has come up. And no, you are not a real raid guild if you are not a successful raid guild. You are a guild trying to become a successful raid guild but not there yet. That is exactly what is wrong with people in this game. They think because they want to try and raid that makes them raiders and that they should have everything other raiders have. Im not saying everyone is like this but a large majority of those players are and its quuite frankly, sickening to think that they honestly believe they hold a candle to a real raider.

Nebul

07-27-2006, 07:21 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR>Ive said it a thousand times. NO RELIC DROPPING OFF OF TRASH. Period. Nothing fabled should come off trash mobs. Its bad enough that master spells do come off heroic trash mobs, we certantly dont need raid gear coming off them too.<BR><BR>Having the armor molds helped to kill harder mobs wich got you better gear to kill even harder mobs in eq1. It was a continuous cycle that never got made obsolete because there were no tiers like we have in this game. Instead you kill trash and get the relic, grats you beat eq2 itemization! You dont need anything better than relic for anything (except maybe chel'drak and the derivine matron) but those arent even in KoS. Do you think you could kill the avatar of war in velious with nothing but armor mold gear or how about Vulak? Heck probably not even the 4th warder in sleepers tomb. Do you see the difference yet? There was a massive progression that made sense in eq1, there is not here. Relic is too good to drop off trash or should be made legendary, have the stats dropped by 10% and mitigation dropped by 20%. Lets see how many people do farming runs then. Oh wait, nobody would because that would only be gear to gear up a little more to kill the named, and you can get that done with t6 gear. <BR><BR>Omg, it would actually be more beneficial to kill the named! What an insane idea! Making people actually want to kill the mobs instead of just the trash!<BR><BR>Again though, relic dropping off trash is a horrible mistake and will be corrected in EoF to the best of my understanding. Eq1 raiding/progression/itemization is not even comparable to eq2 raiding/progression/itemization. Eq1 made sense but created problems. If they would just do eq2 exactly like eq1 only with the tiers so you could always start off fresh with the new tier things would be good. But of course you would still have tons of lesser raidrs whining, I need loot from deathtoll to beat chel'drak whose loot I need to beat EoF content! I paid for EoF so I should be able to walk into the first raid zone there and own it because it cost me 30bucks! What SOE needs to do is ignore all those people and realize how they are actualy ruining any chance this game has for some real progression.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You still have not given any valid reason as to how this is effecting you or your raid guild in any way shape or form.<BR><p>Message Edited by NebulaD on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 AM</span>

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 07:21 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazric wrote:<BR> <P> News flash ish and crew, casual raiders do not have the desire or time, to fail constantly over and over again on mobs, thats why they failed miserably in EQ1. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>and there you have it right their. Those guilds farming relic do not put in the effort, time or work needed to beat harder encounters. We've already proved time is a non -issue, raiding in EQ2 is nothing like EQ1. Raids at most take 2-3 hours each. It comes directly down to effort and desire.</P> <P>Newsflash, every single hardcore raid guild put in the wipes and lost money and time learning encounter. IT'S PART OF RAIDING. If you refuse to put in the effort required you have NO buisness wearing Raid Gear. You don't deserve it.<BR></P>

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 07:25 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NebulaD wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> You still have not given any valid reason as to how this is effecting you or your raid in any way shape or form.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe if you stopped being so selfish and took an objective view, you would realize the long term health of the game is at stake here. It's not about me or you.

Tazr

07-27-2006, 07:27 PM

<DIV>So then, in essense changing relic would only fix a small issue. Since the itemization never really gets a whole lot better. Wouldnt it be better to address itemization as a whole, instead of 1 area of it? Removing relic from the game, would be a mistake in itself, fixing itemization across the board would be the right thing to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And while we are hitting itemization, we should definetly nerf the HoF plate armor, claymore - nerf it, those dragonscale items are almost irreplacable for tanks and named dont drop much better! Oh the horror. Hey what about that feather charm from the T7 feather collection quest, nerf that too while we are at it.... Why dont we nerf ALL of the content that isnt raidable, just so the raiders can feel more happy about the itemization! Nobody really plays thats non raiding anyway right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggest ways to fix the raid itemization instead of coming up with nerf idea's to screw a fairly hefty population.</DIV>

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 07:29 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazric wrote:<BR> <DIV>So then, in essense changing relic would only fix a small issue. Since the itemization never really gets a whole lot better. Wouldnt it be better to address itemization as a whole, instead of 1 area of it? Removing relic from the game, would be a mistake in itself, fixing itemization across the board would be the right thing to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And while we are hitting itemization, we should definetly nerf the HoF plate armor, claymore - nerf it, those dragonscale items are almost irreplacable for tanks and named dont drop much better! Oh the horror. Hey what about that feather charm from the T7 feather collection quest, nerf that too while we are at it.... Why dont we nerf ALL of the content that isnt raidable, just so the raiders can feel more happy about the itemization! Nobody really plays thats non raiding anyway right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggest ways to fix the raid itemization instead of coming up with nerf idea's to screw a fairly hefty population.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This whole topic is about raid itemization, why are you brining heroic content into it?</P> <P> </P> <P>Strawman Argument at it's finest.</P><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:31 AM</span>

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 07:30 PM

Yeah I think Khalan did a good job of saying it. It doesnt affect me directly, it affects the game as a whole wich indirectly affects each and everyone of us.Would you play a game where you could log in, type /uber and suddently you were max level with max aa's and your pick of any gear/spells you want? Yeah people would play it for all of a day. The game would die if everything was like that and relic is just a step in handing everything out for free. Again Mr Ive been on the boards for all of a week, there have been numerous threads about how this affects the game as a whole and you have already shown you dont care about anything but just yourself and what is in your own little bubble. Some of us just want to see the game have some sort of longevity and arent just playing for ourselves and the hear and now. I pity people like you, I really do.

Tazr

07-27-2006, 07:31 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazric wrote:<BR> <P> News flash ish and crew, casual raiders do not have the desire or time, to fail constantly over and over again on mobs, thats why they failed miserably in EQ1. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>and there you have it right their. Those guilds farming relic do not put in the effort, time or work needed to beat harder encounters. We've already proved time is a non -issue, raiding in EQ2 is nothing like EQ1. Raids at most take 2-3 hours each. It comes directly down to effort and desire.</P> <P>Newsflash, every single hardcore raid guild put in the wipes and lost money and time learning encounter. IT'S PART OF RAIDING. If you refuse to put in the effort required you have NO buisness wearing Raid Gear. You don't deserve it.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is a bs statement, you should be ashamed of yourself, once again someone attacking a lesser raiding party because of the way they play again, disgusting. </DIV>

Nebul

07-27-2006, 07:33 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NebulaD wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>Ish my post count is irrelevant here. Just because your guild can defeat the entire raid zone doesn't make you any more "real" than a guild that is trying but has not succeeded yet.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Actually its 100% relavent. This stupid discussion has gone on more times than anyone can count about life vs no life. Obviously your a newbie, as shown by your post count, and dont visit the boards enough to see one of the million threads where it has come up.<BR><BR>And no, you are not a real raid guild if you are not a successful raid guild. You are a guild trying to become a successful raid guild but not there yet. That is exactly what is wrong with people in this game. They think because they want to try and raid that makes them raiders and that they should have everything other raiders have. Im not saying everyone is like this but a large majority of those players are and its quuite frankly, sickening to think that they honestly believe they hold a candle to a real raider.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>You apparently need to take a break from the forums and the game then if your getting this worked up and sick over a game. I am paying to have fun and enjoy the game any way I please. Why are you trying to ruin other peoples good times? Again its not effecting you in any way.</P>

Tazr

07-27-2006, 07:33 PM

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR>Yeah I think Khalan did a good job of saying it. It doesnt affect me directly, it affects the game as a whole wich indirectly affects each and everyone of us.<BR><BR>Would you play a game where you could log in, type /uber and suddently you were max level with max aa's and your pick of any gear/spells you want? Yeah people would play it for all of a day. The game would die if everything was like that and relic is just a step in handing everything out for free. <BR><BR>Again Mr Ive been on the boards for all of a week, there have been numerous threads about how this affects the game as a whole and you have already shown you dont care about anything but just yourself and what is in your own little bubble. Some of us just want to see the game have some sort of longevity and arent just playing for ourselves and the hear and now. I pity people like you, I really do.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Preach longevity, do it. I'm all for it. I don't think anyone is questioning that, just the way you are suggesting it be done, and the manner in which you are trying to get it done.</P>

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 07:34 PM

<P>Problem is Ish, Joe Casual wants to play the game for 6 months and if he doesn't have the best gear by the end of it, then their is a problem.</P> <P>I've been playing this game for 2 years almost and I still don't expect the best of anything without putting in the effort to obtain it. And I will probably play for another 2 years where as Joe Casual will have moved on to the next thing.</P> <P>I care about the long term health of the game because I will be here, why should Joe Casual, it's more fun for him to get instant gratification and then be done with it. </P>

Yunga_511

07-27-2006, 07:34 PM

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=zones&message.id=14561&view=by_date_ascending&page=2" target=_blank>I WIN EQ2 BUTTON!</A></DIV>

Tazr

07-27-2006, 07:35 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazric wrote:<BR> <DIV>So then, in essense changing relic would only fix a small issue. Since the itemization never really gets a whole lot better. Wouldnt it be better to address itemization as a whole, instead of 1 area of it? Removing relic from the game, would be a mistake in itself, fixing itemization across the board would be the right thing to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And while we are hitting itemization, we should definetly nerf the HoF plate armor, claymore - nerf it, those dragonscale items are almost irreplacable for tanks and named dont drop much better! Oh the horror. Hey what about that feather charm from the T7 feather collection quest, nerf that too while we are at it.... Why dont we nerf ALL of the content that isnt raidable, just so the raiders can feel more happy about the itemization! Nobody really plays thats non raiding anyway right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggest ways to fix the raid itemization instead of coming up with nerf idea's to screw a fairly hefty population.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This whole topic is about raid itemization, why are you brining heroic content into it?</P> <P> </P> <P>Strawman Argument at it's finest.</P> <P>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <SPAN class=date_text>07-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:31 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Because Chaos, whenever someone tries to ask why this effects progression, it seems to point to a bigger picture with itemization and progression. Heroic instances have progression. You cant get 70 without them, you need 70 to raid. That has an effect on your raiding and progression. It seems perfectly relevant to me if your talking about itemization progression.

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 07:35 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazric wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazric wrote:<BR> <P> News flash ish and crew, casual raiders do not have the desire or time, to fail constantly over and over again on mobs, thats why they failed miserably in EQ1. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>and there you have it right their. Those guilds farming relic do not put in the effort, time or work needed to beat harder encounters. We've already proved time is a non -issue, raiding in EQ2 is nothing like EQ1. Raids at most take 2-3 hours each. It comes directly down to effort and desire.</P> <P>Newsflash, every single hardcore raid guild put in the wipes and lost money and time learning encounter. IT'S PART OF RAIDING. If you refuse to put in the effort required you have NO buisness wearing Raid Gear. You don't deserve it.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is a bs statement, you should be ashamed of yourself, once again someone attacking a lesser raiding party because of the way they play again, disgusting. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Let me quote EXACTLY what you wrote again so you can read it:</P> <HR> <P>Tazric wrote:<BR></P> <P> News flash ish and crew, casual raiders do not have the <FONT color=#ff0000 size=5><STRONG>desire or time</STRONG></FONT>, to fail constantly over and over again on mobs, thats why they failed miserably in EQ1. </P> <HR> <HR> <P>Tazric wrote:<BR></P> <P> News flash ish and crew, casual raiders do not have the <FONT color=#ff0000 size=5><STRONG>desire or time</STRONG></FONT>, to fail constantly over and over again on mobs, thats why they failed miserably in EQ1. </P> <HR> <HR> <P>Tazric wrote:<BR></P> <P> News flash ish and crew, casual raiders do not have the <FONT color=#ff0000 size=5><STRONG>desire or time</STRONG></FONT>, to fail constantly over and over again on mobs, thats why they failed miserably in EQ1. </P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>You wrote it yourself, not sure why your calling me out on your own statements.</P>

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 07:36 PM

<blockquote><hr>Tazric wrote:<DIV>So then, in essense changing relic would only fix a small issue. Since the itemization never really gets a whole lot better. Wouldnt it be better to address itemization as a whole, instead of 1 area of it? Removing relic from the game, would be a mistake in itself, fixing itemization across the board would be the right thing to do.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>And while we are hitting itemization, we should definetly nerf the HoF plate armor, claymore - nerf it, those dragonscale items are almost irreplacable for tanks and named dont drop much better! Oh the horror. Hey what about that feather charm from the T7 feather collection quest, nerf that too while we are at it.... Why dont we nerf ALL of the content that isnt raidable, just so the raiders can feel more happy about the itemization! Nobody really plays thats non raiding anyway right?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Suggest ways to fix the raid itemization instead of coming up with nerf idea's to screw a fairly hefty population.</DIV><hr></blockquote>As said several times in other thread, it is far too late for KoS itemization, and we can only hope it is fixed/corrected in EoF and other future releases. While your whole post here missed out on what I said above, yes, claymore rewards were too good, the collection item was too good as was the earring collection quest item for mages. Its not about raiders wanting everyone to have worse gear though and you show some real ignorance on the whole issues saying that.If you would even pay attention to the big picture you will see I want a fair amount of MY OWN GEAR nerfed. It doesnt fall in line of progression, it should be worse than it is. Your post just shows your another one of those selfish people that think omg raiders just want to ruin the game for me and I should have uber cool leet gear just for playing! Its about progression and itemization as a whole. If you cant figure out why that is important by now, anything I say will just fall on deaf ears and an empty head.

Tazr

07-27-2006, 07:36 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <P>Problem is Ish, Joe Casual wants to play the game for 6 months and if he doesn't have the best gear by the end of it, then their is a problem.</P> <P>I've been playing this game for 2 years almost and I still don't expect the best of anything without putting in the effort to obtain it. And I will probably play for another 2 years where as Joe Casual will have moved on to the next thing.</P> <P>I care about the long term health of the game because I will be here, why should Joe Casual, it's more fun for him to get instant gratification and then be done with it. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your wrong.

Yunga_511

07-27-2006, 07:37 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NebulaD wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff3300>You apparently need to take a break from the forums and the game then if your getting this worked up and sick over a game.</FONT> I am paying to have fun and enjoy the game any way I please. Why are you trying to ruin other peoples good times? Again its not effecting you in any way.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Then Why are you still here?

Lint26

07-27-2006, 07:37 PM

<P>As a 'casual raider' we do the zone every week as its meant to be done and are slowly making more progression in the zone and getting further with each attempt, yes we've not beat Vyemm yet but we're not far off. Relic is helping us gear our raid force and get further but yet we don't farm for it because we want to beat the nameds, for my guild its all about progessing through the zones and improving on our last visit. </P> <P>However despite my guild doing things the way its supposed to be done, people want us penalised because we can get fabled items of any mob within an epic zone. Yes it doesn't take much to kill the trash in there, but then upto the 3 amigos it doesn't take much to kill anything in there, and this is from a noob guild that can't even clear a single T7 raid zone. </P> <P>Relic is helping us progress and we're happy at the pace we are going, taking that away from us is only going to lead to more frustration as we're stuck killing the same nameds within each instance until we get their loot to progress further in the zone.</P>

Tazr

07-27-2006, 07:37 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazric wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazric wrote:<BR> <P> News flash ish and crew, casual raiders do not have the desire or time, to fail constantly over and over again on mobs, thats why they failed miserably in EQ1. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>and there you have it right their. Those guilds farming relic do not put in the effort, time or work needed to beat harder encounters. We've already proved time is a non -issue, raiding in EQ2 is nothing like EQ1. Raids at most take 2-3 hours each. It comes directly down to effort and desire.</P> <P>Newsflash, every single hardcore raid guild put in the wipes and lost money and time learning encounter. IT'S PART OF RAIDING. If you refuse to put in the effort required you have NO buisness wearing Raid Gear. You don't deserve it.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is a bs statement, you should be ashamed of yourself, once again someone attacking a lesser raiding party because of the way they play again, disgusting. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Let me quote EXACTLY what you wrote again so you can read it:</P> <HR> <P>Tazric wrote:<BR></P> <P> News flash ish and crew, casual raiders do not have the <FONT color=#ff0000 size=5><STRONG>desire or time</STRONG></FONT>, to fail constantly over and over again on mobs, thats why they failed miserably in EQ1. </P> <HR> <HR> <P>Tazric wrote:<BR></P> <P> News flash ish and crew, casual raiders do not have the <FONT color=#ff0000 size=5><STRONG>desire or time</STRONG></FONT>, to fail constantly over and over again on mobs, thats why they failed miserably in EQ1. </P> <HR> <HR> <P>Tazric wrote:<BR></P> <P> News flash ish and crew, casual raiders do not have the <FONT color=#ff0000 size=5><STRONG>desire or time</STRONG></FONT>, to fail constantly over and over again on mobs, thats why they failed miserably in EQ1. </P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>You wrote it yourself, not sure why your calling me out on your own statements.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Put it in context.

Nebul

07-27-2006, 07:37 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR>Yeah I think Khalan did a good job of saying it. It doesnt affect me directly, it affects the game as a whole wich indirectly affects each and everyone of us.<BR><BR>Would you play a game where you could log in, type /uber and suddently you were max level with max aa's and your pick of any gear/spells you want? Yeah people would play it for all of a day. The game would die if everything was like that and relic is just a step in handing everything out for free. <BR><BR>Again Mr Ive been on the boards for all of a week, there have been numerous threads about how this affects the game as a whole and you have already shown you dont care about anything but just yourself and what is in your own little bubble. Some of us just want to see the game have some sort of longevity and arent just playing for ourselves and the hear and now. I pity people like you, I really do.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Mr Ive been on the boards for a week. Lets stop the childish name calling... I never once said I was apart of the people farming you just assumed that.</DIV>

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 07:38 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazric wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tazric wrote:<BR> <DIV>So then, in essense changing relic would only fix a small issue. Since the itemization never really gets a whole lot better. Wouldnt it be better to address itemization as a whole, instead of 1 area of it? Removing relic from the game, would be a mistake in itself, fixing itemization across the board would be the right thing to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And while we are hitting itemization, we should definetly nerf the HoF plate armor, claymore - nerf it, those dragonscale items are almost irreplacable for tanks and named dont drop much better! Oh the horror. Hey what about that feather charm from the T7 feather collection quest, nerf that too while we are at it.... Why dont we nerf ALL of the content that isnt raidable, just so the raiders can feel more happy about the itemization! Nobody really plays thats non raiding anyway right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Suggest ways to fix the raid itemization instead of coming up with nerf idea's to screw a fairly hefty population.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This whole topic is about raid itemization, why are you brining heroic content into it?</P> <P> </P> <P>Strawman Argument at it's finest.</P> <P>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <SPAN class=date_text>07-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:31 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Because Chaos, whenever someone tries to ask why this effects progression, it seems to point to a bigger picture with itemization and progression. Heroic instances have progression. You cant get 70 without them, you need 70 to raid. That has an effect on your raiding and progression. It seems perfectly relevant to me if your talking about itemization progression.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think the itemization of heroic content is spot on, it's only thrown out of whack when you start raiding.

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 07:38 PM

<blockquote><hr>NebulaD wrote:<DIV><P>You apparently need to take a break from the forums and the game then if your getting this worked up and sick over a game. I am paying to have fun and enjoy the game any way I please. Why are you trying to ruin other peoples good times? Again its not effecting you in any way.</P><hr></blockquote>Ah yes, the reply of the guy who realizes he has nothing to contribute to the discussion, is dead wrong, but too foolish to admit it.

Tazr

07-27-2006, 07:40 PM

Ish, I havent in any of my threads since I started posting said that the itemization is right. This entire thread is completely worthless, because changing relic is only changing a small part of the problem that as you so correctly put, is too late. So why bother even starting a thread like this? I hope the OP learned a valuable lesson. Think about the collateral damage and the timing before demanding the changes you asked.

Tazr

07-27-2006, 07:42 PM

I enjoyed the conversation, I have nothing to add anymore. Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 07:43 PM

Im pretty sure Miroh knows that relic will not be removed. Sometimes the real point isnt what is boldly stated. The underlieing concept behind this post is to show how relic as it was implemented was not beneficial to the game. If the people that matter hadnt already arrived at this conclusion, perhaps they would realize how many people feel about the whole situation. SOE employess very rarely tell us when they are working on something or realize that something is a mistake until they are ready to correct it. EoF is several months away still so they wont admit it publicly until raiders thank them for fixing it in EoF or non raiders complain about it in EoF. Only then we will get a post explaining why it had to be done. So until then, it makes sense for people to continue making posts until the issue is addressed.

Pins

07-27-2006, 07:44 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> from the test notes it appears the lockout timers were doubled on failure to 12 hours and the success lowered to 5days.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Failure lockout was doubled, though the success lockout is either increased by 20 hours on most raid zones, or lowered by 4 hours on others for the x4 raid zones.</P> <P> </P> <P>Nizara, Crab all got lockouts increased, and Roost(with far better loot) has access lowered.</P> <P> </P> <P>Though, what is Chel'Drak? Is that a Small Raid Zone, or a Large Raid Zone? I mean, I look at it, and it's a small raid zone, with 3 trash before, and 1 boss. So does that mean Chel'Drak have a 3 day 20 hour lockout on beating it? Or is it considered a Large Raid Zone?</P>

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 07:50 PM

I'd also like to add, when I say Hardcore or Casual, I'm not referring to how many hours someone plays a week, but rather their state of mind and attitude.

Gaige

07-27-2006, 08:01 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NebulaD wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ish my post count is irrelevant here. Just because your guild can defeat the entire raid zone doesn't make you any more "real" than a guild that is trying but has not succeeded yet.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes it does. How can you comment about appropriate rewards from Vyemm's lab if you've never killed Vyemm? You can't. How can you comment about proper raid item progression if you've never seen a majority of the items, or any at all from a contested? You can't.</P> <P>The fact is that you can go into lab with a pickup raid, kill trash that pose no threat, and get lucky with a relic silk robe... OR... you can wait a week for Mutagenic Outcast to spawn, make sure you're the only guild on your server that kills him that week and get a robe (or two!) that is worse than the relic one.</P> <P>That is <EM>broken.</EM> SOE is currently rewarding raiders who accomplish less with gear better or on par with raiders who accomplish more.</P> <P>That leaves people's ambitions to be lowered or removed totally. While you still have ambition because you can't kill Vyemm.. what ambition, what drive do we have? Why kill everything each week when we can get rewarded the same, as you do, with so much less effort.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:07 AM</span>

Miroh

07-27-2006, 08:06 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>NebulaD wrote:<div></div> <div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>Miroh69 wrote:</p> <p><b><i><font color="#ff0000">Ignorance is bliss....</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> Funny, most of the members of my guild have families, have jobs and/or going to college. Have 2 doctors in ours and one practicing. So much for your theory huh? Doesn't take 12 hours to do a raid, if it does maybe you should think about a different game or sticking to quest. Edit: Hell we did labs in 1 hour....so much for that needing to have no life to raid 12 hours huh?</font></i></b></p> <p>Message Edited by Miroh69 on <span class="date_text">07-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:50 AM</span></p> <hr> </blockquote>All you have done so far is complain about how much better your guild is compared to everyone else. Are people farming relics at all effecting your guilds advancement or enjoyment of the game? Not at all end of discussion.</div><hr></blockquote> <b><i><font color="#ff0000"> I think you should read more of these post before you say such things....People said I was trying to get it changed after we farmed all we needed. I was just in my responce. Don't be upset, not everyone reads every post so you're not alone.</font></i></b></div>

Keldo

07-27-2006, 08:09 PM

If I'm reading the lockout thing correctly I'm not seeing how Nizara would be increased in lockout unless its a special case. It would fall under heroic and go to a 18 hour lockout right? Would be lame if it was a 'small raid zone', if are trying to go uniform, and then create special cases, why bother?<div></div>

IllusiveThoughts

07-27-2006, 08:27 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ishboozor wrote:<BR></P> <P>with the tiers so you could always start off fresh with the new tier things would be good.</P> <P>But of course you would still have tons of lesser raidrs whining, I need loot from deathtoll to beat chel'drak whose loot I need to beat EoF content! I paid for EoF so I should be able to walk into the first raid zone there and own it because it cost me 30bucks! What SOE needs to do is ignore all those people and realize how they are actualy ruining any chance this game has for some real progression.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>your contradicting yourself there ish.</P> <P>If progression started over at each tier, why would you have to farm previous tiered content to start with new content in the next tier.</P> <P>The problem I see with adding another tier and content is that armor is a 15 level range, which means there will be armor sets from top boss mobs from t7 and kos dropping that are lvl 70 gear, which also means that those guilds that take those mobs out will cake walk through t8 raiding, while the rest and (larger) population will have to progress through in order to experience the harder content.</P> <P>What you represent and other hardcore raiding guilds is a minority. The problem with being a minority is that you get catored to much less than being with the general populace. </P> <P>I'm all for progression from inside each tier, such as we have now</P> <P>with aoa x2 > sanctum contested > labs > lyceum > hos > deathtoll ></P> <P>with overland zone contested and xpansion pack zones falling in between.</P> <P> </P>

Miroh

07-27-2006, 08:32 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:Im pretty sure Miroh knows that relic will not be removed. Sometimes the real point isnt what is boldly stated. The underlieing concept behind this post is to show how relic as it was implemented was not beneficial to the game. If the people that matter hadnt already arrived at this conclusion, perhaps they would realize how many people feel about the whole situation. SOE employess very rarely tell us when they are working on something or realize that something is a mistake until they are ready to correct it. EoF is several months away still so they wont admit it publicly until raiders thank them for fixing it in EoF or non raiders complain about it in EoF. Only then we will get a post explaining why it had to be done. So until then, it makes sense for people to continue making posts until the issue is addressed.<hr></blockquote> <b><i><font color="#ff0000">Pretty much Ishboo, I know SoE will barely touch this issue due to how long it's been around, and even when it was brought up early all they did was put a 6 hour lockout timer for failure. </font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> It's sad when people throw "having a real life" into the arguement because they disagree with something that is stated, it doesn't take your life to raid, it barely takes any time. If you are a casual raider that does the raid zones as intended whether you can beat the final boss or not, my hat goes off to you for trying over and over. But to those that don't because they want everything in the game without much work involved....thanks for making eq2 suck and all the work some people put into gearing themselves out seem pointless. Yes yes, go play another game, I hear it coming already....don't worry Vanguard is appealing to me. Least there it seems that your work put into your toon will show and not have someone hardly play get to the same lvl as you....and when I say lvl, I mean Level, Gear, spells etc etc....Because here??? You can be lvl 70 and still be clueless about your class as you were when you were lvl 2.</font></i></b> </div>

Nebul

07-27-2006, 08:32 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NebulaD wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ish my post count is irrelevant here. Just because your guild can defeat the entire raid zone doesn't make you any more "real" than a guild that is trying but has not succeeded yet.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes it does. How can you comment about appropriate rewards from Vyemm's lab if you've never killed Vyemm? You can't. How can you comment about proper raid item progression if you've never seen a majority of the items, or any at all from a contested? You can't.</P> <P>The fact is that you can go into lab with a pickup raid, kill trash that pose no threat, and get lucky with a relic silk robe... OR... you can wait a week for Mutagenic Outcast to spawn, make sure you're the only guild on your server that kills him that week and get a robe (or two!) that is worse than the relic one.</P> <P>That is <EM>broken.</EM> SOE is currently rewarding raiders who accomplish less with gear better or on par with raiders who accomplish more.</P> <P>That leaves people's ambitions to be lowered or removed totally. While you still have ambition because you can't kill Vyemm.. what ambition, what drive do we have? Why kill everything each week when we can get rewarded the same, as you do, with so much less effort.<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>07-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:07 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>more assumptions on things I never said. I never once said I did or did not kill Vyemm. I was just playing devils advocate. Apparently my post count isnt big enough for this discussion so I will bid the farewell and enjoy the ulcer.

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 08:34 PM

In response to Illusive:EoF is not a new tier, it is an extension of t7. Raiding earlier t7 content should be a prerequisite for raiding EoF.And please dont fool yourself, there is no progression in KoS raiding. Deathtoll is by no means harder than labs. The loot is by no means better. All in all its all kind of a bland landscape of the same thing.The tier system though is what SOE has implement and we are stuck with. Im not a huge fan of making everything obsolete but it is exactly what each tier does. On the plus side if your new to the raid game when t8 is released you can step right into with just heroic gear from t8 mobs because that will be as good as top end t7 raid gear.Just look at Dof and KoS. KoS has tons of heroic gear that owns the best fabled from DoF. I am sure whatever comes after EoF will do the same to Kos/EoF gear, so the key is to make gear within the tier follow a progression.Lets face it, right now all itemization is just screwed up. The way it shoudl work is deatholl chel'drak EoF. We all know it wont work that way because labs = deathtoll = chel'drak. All I can do is pray that what we currently have = begining EoF middle of the road EoF high end EoF. Furthermore each level should be significantly harder than the previous.<p>Message Edited by Ishboozor on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>

Gaige

07-27-2006, 08:35 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>If progression started over at each tier, why would you have to farm previous tiered content to start with new content in the next tier.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wrong. When they made T7 and corrected thier mistake from T6 the thing that devs said was:</P> <P>"Player crafted from the new tier is not better than previous tier fabled. Players with previous tier fabled will have a slight advantage, blah blah."</P> <P>Something like that.</P> <P>So you'd have T8 starting and the lvl to 80 grind and for that grind and the beginning mobs T7 fabled would be good enough and maybe even provide a slight advantage. The other guilds/players who didn't gear up in T7 can start with player crafted and mob dropped treasured to progress to heroic named legendary and then to T8 fabled. Whereas guilds like ours would skip and go straight to T8 fabled.</P> <P>Then if the actual tier had any progression you'd have various degress of fabled gear dropping according to challenge/lockout/contested or instanced with the best stuff coming from the hardest contested encounters and it getting progressively weaker (gear wise) as you go down to the newbie x2 and x4 instanced raids.</P> <P>However, obviously, that has yet to happen.<BR></P>

Miroh

07-27-2006, 08:37 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>Ishboozor wrote:</p> <p>with the tiers so you could always start off fresh with the new tier things would be good.</p> <p>But of course you would still have tons of lesser raidrs whining, I need loot from deathtoll to beat chel'drak whose loot I need to beat EoF content! I paid for EoF so I should be able to walk into the first raid zone there and own it because it cost me 30bucks! What SOE needs to do is ignore all those people and realize how they are actualy ruining any chance this game has for some real progression.</p> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>your contradicting yourself there ish.</p> <p><font color="#ffcc00">If progression started over at each tier, why would you have to farm previous tiered content to start with new content in the next tier.</font></p><hr></blockquote><b><i><font color="#ff0000"> Did you raid much in T6?? If you did you would have clearly seen that T6 fabled no matter how good it was then was basically crap with the, dare I say, TREASURED tag. If you farmed previous tiers so you could raid the next tier you obviously have no clue.</font></i></b></div>

StrollingWolf

07-27-2006, 08:40 PM

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 08:48 PM

<blockquote><hr>StrollingWolf wrote:<div></span>Actually post counts are completely irrelevant to the discussion, I suggest you discuss the topic. This thread is about 2 seconds away from getting locked if it continues in this direction.<hr></div></blockquote>In my defense, Im not the one who appointed less than 20 posts (or whatever it is) as a newbie, I simply refered to his appointed title.A recently activated posting account + lower number of posts + lack of depth in terms of knowledge and understanding of the issue = relavent to the topic.Just trying to clear that one up. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Miroh

07-27-2006, 08:49 PM

<b><i><font color="#ff0000"> May as well lock it....All we are doing now is going in circles and branching off. </font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> Also would like to point out that saying real life stopping you from raiding is irrelevant to the original post. If you are a casual player you can certainly spend a couple hours a week raiding and getting gear by clearing these zones instead of killing trash for a couple hours (Due to you having to train named away so you can get past is why it takes you so long) </font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> What I really want though, Mods...can you direct a Dev to this thread if possible, Is that relic drop off of named mobs only and a longer lockout....by longer I do not mean 12 hour lockout of failure becuase that is all most of these people are doing....taking advantage of the lock out so they can get relic off of something that takes no work to do.</font></i></b><div></div>

Lightomen

07-27-2006, 08:59 PM

<DIV>/agreed with one caveat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You complain about people getting uber gear for a 6 hour lockout, but for 30pp you will let someone come in and loot a fabled no-trade item and leave and get a 15-30 minute lockout, maybe a 6 hour if it is Labs they are zoning into?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If relic dropping on a 6 hour lockout is killing the game, then PLEASE oooooo "Keepers of the Longevity of EQ2" explain to me how selling loot rights to the boss mob of a zone for the entrance lockout of Labs/AoA/DT/Lyceum/Halls isn't?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Miroh

07-27-2006, 09:03 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lightomen wrote:<div></div> <div>/agreed with one caveat.</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ffcc00">You complain about people getting uber gear for a 6 hour lockout, but for 30pp you will let someone come in and loot a fabled no-trade item and leave and get a 15-30 minute lockout, maybe a 6 hour if it is Labs they are zoning into?</font></div> <div> </div> <div>If relic dropping on a 6 hour lockout is killing the game, then PLEASE oooooo "Keepers of the Longevity of EQ2" explain to me how selling loot rights to the boss mob of a zone for the entrance lockout of Labs/AoA/DT/Lyceum/Halls isn't?</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote> <b><i><font color="#ff0000">Please explain that one for me lol. NM, don't explain it, because it has nothing to do with this. You don't kill anything what so ever to zone in and loot something, but of course selling loot rights has been something done in eq1 all the time. That is irrelevent to this topic based on the things needed to achieve loot that is paid for and not having to kill it. But yeah, that is stupid too but we bring in alts if no one wants it with their mains, why? Because we worked hard to kill that mob and for his loot....no one outside the guild is gonna get their grubby lil hands on it simply because they did no work for it.</font></i></b></div><p>Message Edited by Miroh69 on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:08 AM</span>

Lightomen

07-27-2006, 09:03 PM

<DIV>To those of us in the know, raids are actually a very small portion of our online time. We made it to Vyemm in 2.5 hours and are getting better and faster. Is labs the longest raid T7-wise? I haven't been to many longer ones. Maybe Lyceum but I doubt it.</DIV>

Lightomen

07-27-2006, 09:04 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miroh69 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lightomen wrote:<BR> <DIV>/agreed with one caveat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>You complain about people getting uber gear for a 6 hour lockout, but for 30pp you will let someone come in and loot a fabled no-trade item and leave and get a 15-30 minute lockout, maybe a 6 hour if it is Labs they are zoning into?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <B><I><FONT color=#ff0000>Please explain that one for me lol.</FONT></I></B><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Loot rights? You zone in loot the chest and zone out. Nothing killed so you get the failure lock out.<BR>

Pins

07-27-2006, 09:09 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lightomen wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miroh69 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lightomen wrote:<BR> <DIV>/agreed with one caveat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>You complain about people getting uber gear for a 6 hour lockout, but for 30pp you will let someone come in and loot a fabled no-trade item and leave and get a 15-30 minute lockout, maybe a 6 hour if it is Labs they are zoning into?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <B><I><FONT color=#ff0000>Please explain that one for me lol.</FONT></I></B><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Loot rights? You zone in loot the chest and zone out. Nothing killed so you get the failure lock out.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And? You know this wouldn't be happening if proper itemization was in the game. In fact, why don't you go take your thoughts on selling loot rights to the approriate thread, where we've already explained our reasons on it.

Miroh

07-27-2006, 09:11 PM

<b><i><font color="#ff0000"> Read my edit please....</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"> And no, Labs isn't the longest raid zone.</font></i></b><div></div>

Riversideblues

07-27-2006, 09:11 PM

let's quickly clear up some raider generalizations!1) we don't spend all day on the game, i log on at around 4pm pst, play till around 8, sometimes 9, go to the gym, come back, maybe play an alt, and go out. we all have lives, we all have friends(except zaphear<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />), family but enjoy getting together and beating hard encounters.2) it's not that we're all "too involved", it's that we are just somewhat smart, it's not easy to see what's going to happen to this game in the longrun if things aren't cleaned up, relic is one of those things.well, that's good, but im hungover so that's all i think im gonna do for now <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

Riversideblues

07-27-2006, 09:14 PM

wait, second wind!okay casual players who disagree answer this:does it make sense for some of the best items in certain slots to be dropping off 2groupable(by anyone) trash mobs????riddle me that.....<div></div>

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 09:25 PM

<P>I play 15-20 hours a week at most. I log on at 4:30ish PST after I get home from work, play about 3 hours then log off and go do other things. </P> <P>Hell I have casual playtimes but I'm in one of the most hardcore guilds around.</P> <P>We also only raid Mon-Fri. And Even then usually one of those days is a day off or spent doing non raid stuff.</P> <P>/ponder.</P><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:26 AM</span>

Krontak

07-27-2006, 09:32 PM

<P>I swear I must be unlucky as heck with relic. I've done at least 100 raids I swear and haven't won a chain relic drop yet! Now, with that in mind, how much relic you think someone is actually gonna get on these pick-up relic raids? I see people posting for relic pick-up raids in the channels and I feel bad for people having to do this to get equipment. I guess some people aren't as organized or whatever to get into raiding the whole zone who knows. One thing though, its obvious that if these people are doing daily pick-up raids for relic then they aren't locked out of the zone meaning they probably aren't really raiding that much, which in tern means they won't be influencing the zone difficulty argument that some have put forth in the dumbing down of content.</P> <P>Some put forth the argument that many of these zones where completed with full t6 raid gear. Might I remind those that stated this that there was a cap and many guilds had the time to equip in great t6 fabled before this expansion to allow these zones to be easier. I'm not always good and getting my ideas out so someone rip my crap apart and maybe I can better explain what I'm getting at. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>So, did everyone that complained that relic drops from trash npcs delete from their guilds inventory the relic drops because it was poor design? </P> <P>Point I'm trying to get across is this I guess. Yeah, the relic thing was implemented porely. Some of the top or at least top three pieces for each slot are the relic drops. They probably shouldn't have made the relic gear so powerful. Maybe with EOF they'll change the relic and do what they did with many of the fabled items that dropped from DOF. It would probably be a good thing to let people get decked out in class specific relic armor with diminished stats. Bottum line though, I seriously doubt that people obtaining relic gear has influenced any of these higher end raiding guilds play. Would it make you all happier if the same people purchased all the left over fabled gear you don't need off the broker rather than obtained fabled gear on thier own? Woudn't everyone having all the same fabled gear be the same as everyone having all the same fabled gear, no matter how they obtained it?</P> <P>I gotta actually do some work now, will probably append to my thoughts later but wanted to get this out before my add goes off on another tangent.</P>

Shizzirri

07-27-2006, 09:44 PM

<DIV>I barely got full fabled in DOF maybe a month before the expansion came out, in T7 I have a full set of relic armor, a full set of animist armor, plus a ton of other fabled (about a bag and a half full), I raid every day but still that's probably way too much loot for the time I put in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Relic was initially a good idea, but it was poorly planned. They didn't have to put it in Lyceum, the didn't have to put it in Labs, they should of only put it on deathtoll named/vyemm/boss mobs/contested etc and not on every trash mob in every raid zone and even trash mobs outside a raid zone (which averages a relic 1-2 times for us).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Lightomen

07-27-2006, 09:53 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lightomen wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miroh69 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lightomen wrote:<BR> <DIV>/agreed with one caveat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>You complain about people getting uber gear for a 6 hour lockout, but for 30pp you will let someone come in and loot a fabled no-trade item and leave and get a 15-30 minute lockout, maybe a 6 hour if it is Labs they are zoning into?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <B><I><FONT color=#ff0000>Please explain that one for me lol.</FONT></I></B><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Loot rights? You zone in loot the chest and zone out. Nothing killed so you get the failure lock out.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And? You know this wouldn't be happening if proper itemization was in the game. In fact, why don't you go take your thoughts on selling loot rights to the approriate thread, where we've already explained our reasons on it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I was bringing it up because the thread has been about relic (supposedly game breaking gear) dropping for a silly 6 hour lockout, which I agree should not be. So if that is the case then loot rights are right there in the same boat, only someone is getting paid. If you are not selling loot rights, then I applaud your restraint and you should not take this to mean I am implying anybody is doing it. I am not.</P> <P>It has been brought up time and again how the lack of progression, and itemization, is killing the game, yet loot rights undermine that. So Joe Casual spends $250 real life on plat farmers, spends the plat on loot rights, and that is okay for the game, but farming relic on a 6 hour lockout isn't?</P> <P>The arguements you use here are the same ones people use against selling loot rights. You bypass the intended game progression by doing it. Now Guild X can finish Zone Y because Guardian Z is not in relic but fully T7 fabled. It only cost them 250-400pp, just don't farm Labs every 6 hours for the relic.</P> <P>Someone also suggested putting the relic in chests that drop from the names. That brings loot rights right to the forefront. Because if they drop in anything but trash chests you will now see "Sell Loot Right to [Insert relic armor peice here] PST to PlayerA, xx minutes on the clock" because the rot timer is now 5-10-15 minutes instead of whatever the trash chest timer is.</P> <P>Like I said, "/agreed". I never liked relic farming or loot rights as they give an unfair advantage to people willing to participate in the misuse of intended/unintended features of the game.</P>

IllusiveThoughts

07-27-2006, 10:21 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>If progression started over at each tier, why would you have to farm previous tiered content to start with new content in the next tier.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wrong. When they made T7 and corrected thier mistake from T6 the thing that devs said was:</P> <P>"Player crafted from the new tier is not better than previous tier fabled. Players with previous tier fabled will have a slight advantage, blah blah."</P> <P>Something like that.</P> <P>So you'd have T8 starting and the lvl to 80 grind and for that grind and the beginning mobs T7 fabled would be good enough and maybe even provide a slight advantage. The other guilds/players who didn't gear up in T7 can start with player crafted and mob dropped treasured to progress to heroic named legendary and then to T8 fabled. Whereas guilds like ours would skip and go straight to T8 fabled.</P> <P>Then if the actual tier had any progression you'd have various degress of fabled gear dropping according to challenge/lockout/contested or instanced with the best stuff coming from the hardest contested encounters and it getting progressively weaker (gear wise) as you go down to the newbie x2 and x4 instanced raids.</P> <P>However, obviously, that has yet to happen.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>you do realize that what your saying agrees with what i was pointing out with the flaw in ish's post that i quoted right?

IllusiveThoughts

07-27-2006, 10:22 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miroh69 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ishboozor wrote:<BR></P> <P>with the tiers so you could always start off fresh with the new tier things would be good.</P> <P>But of course you would still have tons of lesser raidrs whining, I need loot from deathtoll to beat chel'drak whose loot I need to beat EoF content! I paid for EoF so I should be able to walk into the first raid zone there and own it because it cost me 30bucks! What SOE needs to do is ignore all those people and realize how they are actualy ruining any chance this game has for some real progression.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>your contradicting yourself there ish.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>If progression started over at each tier, why would you have to farm previous tiered content to start with new content in the next tier.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><B><I><FONT color=#ff0000> Did you raid much in T6?? If you did you would have clearly seen that T6 fabled no matter how good it was then was basically crap with the, dare I say, TREASURED tag. If you farmed previous tiers so you could raid the next tier you obviously have no clue.</FONT></I></B><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>hello random post, good by intelligent response.

IllusiveThoughts

07-27-2006, 10:30 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P><STRONG>Ishboozor wrote:<BR>In response to Illusive:<BR><BR>EoF is not a new tier, it is an extension of t7. Raiding earlier t7 content should be a prerequisite for raiding EoF.<BR></STRONG>__________________________________________________ _______________</P> <P>I have no problems with making a few raids in EoF a progression from KOS raid gear, but to make them all that way would hurt the game more than you think it would.</P> <P>Again when you cator to the few the many get left out. 10 bucks says there will be an easy raid in EoF and a medium raid and a harder raid, balanced around the average player, and you will find that the hard raids will be easy for the hard core raiders, I dont think that will ever change.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ ________________</P><STRONG>Ishboozor wrote:<BR></STRONG> <P><BR><STRONG>And please dont fool yourself, there is no progression in KoS raiding. Deathtoll is by no means harder than labs. The loot is by no means better. All in all its all kind of a bland landscape of the same thing.<BR></STRONG>__________________________________________________ _________________</P> <P>Just because the loot from there was nerfed to kingdom come doesn't mean that every single piece isn't better than something from labs. you are in denial if you think that.</P> <P> </P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________</P> <P><STRONG>Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR>The way it shoudl work is deatholl chel'drak EoF. </STRONG></P> <P>__________________________________________________ ___________________</P> <P> </P> <P>That would make a bottle neck on killing one of the hardest encounters in the game, what do you think would happen when people start complaining about not being able to kill chel'drak? he's going to get nerfed till everyone can kill him. Do you really want that to happen?</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:33 AM</span>

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 10:30 PM

<blockquote><hr>Lightomen wrote:<DIV>/agreed with one caveat.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>You complain about people getting uber gear for a 6 hour lockout, but for 30pp you will let someone come in and loot a fabled no-trade item and leave and get a 15-30 minute lockout, maybe a 6 hour if it is Labs they are zoning into?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>If relic dropping on a 6 hour lockout is killing the game, then PLEASE oooooo "Keepers of the Longevity of EQ2" explain to me how selling loot rights to the boss mob of a zone for the entrance lockout of Labs/AoA/DT/Lyceum/Halls isn't?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Did a raid full of people get a 6 day lockout for killing a mob with that loot they are selling? Yes. Then the lockout system works fine. Someone else gets a 6hour lockout and loses a chunk of plat to loot the item, again not a problem because a full raid of people already bit the bullet on the week long lockout. Comparing relic dropping to selling loot is a pretty poor comparison. Mostly because the two arent even similar at all. Selling loot = success = full lockout, relic farm = failure = 6 hour lockout. One is a success and one is a failure.

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 10:47 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P><STRONG>Ishboozor wrote:<BR>In response to Illusive:<BR><BR>EoF is not a new tier, it is an extension of t7. Raiding earlier t7 content should be a prerequisite for raiding EoF.<BR></STRONG>__________________________________________________ _______________</P> <P>I have no problems with making a few raids in EoF a progression from KOS raid gear, but to make them all that way would hurt the game more than you think it would.</P> <P>Again when you cator to the few the many get left out. 10 bucks says there will be an easy raid in EoF and a medium raid and a harder raid, balanced around the average player, and you will find that the hard raids will be easy for the hard core raiders, I dont think that will ever change.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why is it a bad thing if KoS is required for EoF raiding? </P> <P><BR> </P>

Ishbu

07-27-2006, 10:51 PM

Wait a minute..If the hard raids of EoF are easy to the high end raiders, they might as well let us know now so we dont waste anymore time. I actually think you will be surprised at the overall raise in difficulty compared to KoS. I am sure there will be some middle of the road raids, and maybe even a starter raid or 2, but I would expect more of the higher end stuff and most of the contsted to be high end. Think 3princes/MO only a step harder. Probably a few x2 contested, but overall they are going to be the naggay/krathuk/vox of t7.....or so I hope because otherwise, grats me on beating EoF within a week.

Riversideblues

07-27-2006, 11:10 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:Wait a minute..If the hard raids of EoF are easy to the high end raiders, they might as well let us know now so we dont waste anymore time. I actually think you will be surprised at the overall raise in difficulty compared to KoS. I am sure there will be some middle of the road raids, and maybe even a starter raid or 2, but I would expect more of the higher end stuff and most of the contsted to be high end. Think 3princes/MO only a step harder. Probably a few x2 contested, but overall they are going to be the naggay/krathuk/vox of t7.....or so I hope because otherwise, grats me on beating EoF within a week.<hr></blockquote>which frankly, is a good thingall raid guilds will be level 70, so there wont be the level rush to put others ahead, so everyone's going to be able to try any mob out while everyone figures the contesteds out, should be fun <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

ChaosUndivided

07-27-2006, 11:59 PM

<DIV>More than likely though we will get cockblocked from doing the raids by some lame quest lines that require us to do heroic and solo content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid Quests for Raid Zones Plz! kthxbye.</DIV><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:00 PM</span>

SourChikn

07-28-2006, 02:55 AM

I know what they should do... lets say while in labs you kill all the trash, in that time 2-3 pieces of relic were SUPPOSE to drop instead of dropping off the trash the only way you can get it is by killing Vyemm... So instead of Relic dropping of trash it should drop off the boss mob with a chance to drop 1-4 pieces in your big shiny chest. Then they could add it to AoA back to HoS and not worry about lockouts and farmers. <div></div>

Miroh

07-28-2006, 03:15 AM

<b><i><font color="#ff0000">Nah, just having a chance to drop off the named is fine. Don't have to kill Vyemm because I know he's tough for some but would rather see people actually doing the zone the way it was intended.</font></i></b><div></div>

Methesa

07-28-2006, 09:11 AM

<blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><P></P><HR><P>Methesa wrote:<BR>Lets make the whole game just for Miroh and people like him (hardcore raiders). Forget about the other people who cant play 10+ hours per day, and want to feel as tho they are upgrading the equipment too.<BR></P><P></P><HR><P><BR>You Serious.....No one listens.../sigh</P><P>Raiding does NOT take 10+ hours a day....thats Overkill...Please Unless you know what your talking about and how long things take don't post about something you..seem to not know about<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE><hr></blockquote>Not once did i say it took 10 hours to RAID. but these hardcore people play ALOT more than a casual person. Be it in raids, groups, solo or just goofing off online waiting for mobs to spawn. I can log on at pretty much any time of the day and i will see the same people talking in various channles. They play ALOT..and i know you dont raid 10 hours per day...thats more than overkill.

Methesa

07-28-2006, 09:13 AM

<blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>TheEasternKing wrote:<BR><P></P><P>hahah so by meaning the " real " raiding guilds didnt farm relic , miroh was that before or after they all geared up killing the HEROIC downarrow mobs in the vestibule in labs when there was no lockout timer ?</P><P>i call absolute BS that the " real " raid guilds didnt farm / or use relic for there progression in T7</P><P>if id seen any of the " real " raid guilds here from week 3 of the expansion crying like i see them doing now that relic is going to ruin progression or has now ruined it and needs changing then you in the " real " guilds would have a leg to stand on</P><P>however miroh non of the " real " giuilds said [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] till just recently when they themselves have TAKEN THE MAXIMUM BENEFIT from relic gear</P><P>so why should the people who are 2-3months behind on the raid scene not have the oppertunity to enjoy the benefits of using relic gear miroh ?</P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><P> </P><P>People have been complaining about this for months, it's not just started in this thread.</P><P>It's not casual players actually owning the armour that's the problem. The problem is that they've basically been handed it on a plate. They've not done anything to deserve it. They've killed trash mobs that don't pose a challenge to anyone and can be single grouped, and they've got the best gear in the game. I'd be fine seeing casual players wearing relic, but only if they've done something to actually earn it.</P><hr></blockquote>They have logged into the game, paying $15 a month. They have got 2 or 3 or even 4 groups together to kill mobs in a raid zone...x3 x4. They deserve loot just as much as anyone else for the 15 bucks they pay, just like you and others.

Methesa

07-28-2006, 09:24 AM

I have seen various people in this thread state the following.Relic is trash and i dont want it and i only use the 2 peices i have for backup.Relic is uber stuff and no way it should drop for people who dont clear the whole zone.Which is it. Good stuff or Bad stuff. The same people are saying that its too good AND they are saying its not worth it to even wear it cos they have better from killing named mobs.Is that right there not risk vs reward? Is that right there maybe why its in game to begins with? To advance thru zones? Maybe its there like it is for those that are 70/70 to group up with a few friends each night and just kill some mobs in a raid setup with the SMALL chance of getting some semi-decent loot?Come on people, its either TRASH or its UBER or maybe its just somewhere in between. It cant be ALL of them at the same time.

SourChikn

07-28-2006, 11:25 AM

<div></div>The purpose of this thread was about the lockout of relic dropping zones not having a long enough lockout for those just killing trash, therefore they are explioting the failure timer on the zone and getting rewards for no risk. Hey i got an idea make the timer success or fail only 6 hours so us raiding guilds can farm labs twice a day. Relic is not trash that is why this is a big deal. Raid quality loot for single group content is always upsetting. Raid guilds dont care about the uberness of the groupable loot, its the fact the raiding quality loot isnt much better most of the time.... SoE just needs to put a no reuse timer for failure on just zoning in and the normal timers on killing anything. Casual players want risk vs. reward, take the risk of only getting 1 piece of relic every 5 days 20 hours. <div></div><p>Message Edited by SourChikn on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:27 AM</span>

pedigr

07-28-2006, 12:00 PM

<div></div>I wonder how many people here calling for a 3 day (or more) timer, are happy knowing that only others will suffer as theyre now fully geared out in relic? Talk about hypocrits !!!<div></div><p>Message Edited by pedigree on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:01 AM</span>

Renpatsu

07-28-2006, 12:40 PM

<DIV>Well, guilds farming Labs doesn't really affect my gameplay. I couldn't care less if someone got some nice relic pieces. I am still eager to clear the named encounters of a zone, as we do weekly right now. Trash mobs are just boring in my opinion. Some relic pieces are quite nice, others are not worth wearing. There are some legendary items (from epic and heroic zones) which exceed the quality of relic pieces. Don't get me wrong, of course I do think that a player in full relic is quite well equipped to be very successful in raiding / grouping. They should rethink itemization in general, as this topic is quite questionable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As some of you said, there are complains about relic pieces / lockout timers for some time now. Why do some talk about 'exploiting' the lockout timer of those relic run groups/raids ? Perhaps SoE didn't change anything because it's working as intended ? How is that an 'exploit' ? To change the failure lockout timer of Labs would probably be the easiest task for SoE. So far they didn't do it and even if they want to do it now, it's probably too late to change anything. I don't think EQ2 is doomed, if they leave it as it is right now. SoE should learn for the future though.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Renpatsu on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:44 AM</span>

Kessia189

07-28-2006, 12:52 PM

Relic drops do need to be looked into, either killing anything in Labs/Lyceum will give you a 3day lockout or move Relic patterns to named drops only because as it stands any Slack, Jack and Nancy can put together a group or two and kill trash, and then do the same 6 hours later. There is no risk vs reward when it comes to relic drops, the only risk is you might not get any from the entrance trash "Dear me what a shame, let's try again this afternoon".It is true that for some Relic armour is below a lot of the other raid loot, myself included, but as far as i'm concerned Fabled armour should not drop from anything less than a named let along trash, Legendary maybe but not Fabled.<div></div>

kenm

07-28-2006, 03:13 PM

<div></div>Maybe I'm weird, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with relic dropping off of trash with a six hour lockout.For me, it's impossible to get into a raid guild without paying for a server transfer. As in, no guilds on the server want another berserker.I've done pris1 and 2, the claymore line up until lab and deathtoll, and practically everything else in the game except for getting the last half of my adept IIIs up to master and getting better gear. (And tradeskill, but that sucks now.) I've already gotten darn near the best gear I can from group instances, but I also can't put together raids capable of killing nameds for the high end fabled gear.<div></div>At least being able to do trash runs with 2-3 groups of people every 6 hours gives me something to work for other than sitting in qeynos habor all day dueling people. Most runs even going behind the nameds yield zero relic, heck, I haven't even seen plate relic in over a month. And honestly, it's not really easy to do trash runs with pickup raids. (At least on my server...) You have necros who have no idea how to play their class and doing under 200 dps, brigands that don't even know what a debuff is let alone use them, and healers that never cure and go afk without warning. Dealing with this stupidity day after day should reward me with something, no?Take my ability to attempt to obtain relic away and there truly is nothing left for me to do in this game. >.<At any rate, guilds already farmed the heck out of the zones to get their people fully fabled. It doesn't really make it fair to let them keep their gear but make it harder for newer guilds to gear up. I mean, it's bad enough that you now get a failure lockout after people were able to farm it all day long.

Yunga_511

07-28-2006, 03:44 PM

<P>Well, This Is the Exact reason why relic runs are wrong...</P> <P>Why are Raid Guilds Raiding the whole zone When we could farm relic and get as good gear as the ones that drop from the nameds twice a day For less the risk?</P> <P> </P> <P>Its not that we've Finished Farming, Its the Risk Vs Reward Situation</P> <P> </P> <P>Its Destroying Heroic/Solo Content, Its Making People who Do Get a 6day lockout think twice about raiding at all...</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>A.) Its Destroying Solo Content as In SoE can't Pump out Enough Because People Will Finish Any Solo Content Faster and Complete it Before SoE can think of another Adventure Pack.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>B.) Its Destroying Heroic Content, Well Look at Nizara.....By the Looks of it, It's Same as AoA as its Main Purpose is around Deathtoll, And Nizara is Surrounded by a Quest to Get into a x4 Raid. That Zone isn't Meant For a Normal Group as u need Selective Classes (IE. Coercer, 2 Different Class of Healers) Much Like Raiding....But Much Like Raiding The Tank needs to Have high HP/Resists/Mit (As well As Healers/DPS that know what their doing), How to Solve this? Farm Relics with a 6 hour lockout or Kill Nameds with a 6 day lockout? Wonder what todo.....</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>C.) Being in a Raiding Guild, Feels like I'am Wasting my Time Doing a whole zone and Getting locked for 6 days when i can Get "As Good" Gear Farming and only Getting 6 hours locked out.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>If This is Hard to Understand, Then I Don't Know what to say other than SoE is Shooting themselfs in the foot with a 12 gauge Shotgun</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:57 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:03 AM</span>

Rinio

07-28-2006, 04:37 PM

<DIV>so um, we are aware relic is only 7 peices of gear out of how many? if your woried about your elite status being questioned because everyone andthere mother has relic show off your shinny jewlery.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Relic is so generic anyway. its nothing special its the Sunrider Ranger gear (EQlive OoW) of EQ2 Great stats and effects but nothing special its just there so that the average group has a chance against dificult group instances and small raid zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For those that whine about oh its fabled. WHO CARES labeling armor was about the stupidest thing sony did imo. I dont care if it says fabled or legendary as long as it does its job.</DIV> <DIV>(also i dont care if it says leather or chain but thats another story..l(eather boots from deathtoll got a kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] proc, go to the ranger forums if u even care i posted about it there.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW! i farmed 20 relic peices this week with my guild out of labs! So I, ME, and MYSELF! RUINED Progresion in this game I mean becaue there is sooooo much content in this game....oh wait.... when is vanguard out again? =/</DIV>

Rinio

07-28-2006, 04:41 PM

<P>just thought about my statement of sunrider gear, and remembered the Breastpalte and leggings only droped off dificult raid bosses.. there ya go solution the best peices only drop off bosses. kkthx</P> <P> </P> <P>I still ruined all 15mbs of content cause i got 20 peices of relic for peeps this week tho</P>

svek

07-28-2006, 04:49 PM

<P><FONT size=2>As many have said before me, though some people seems to have a hard time</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>getting it into their thick skulls.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Relic armor is some of the best armor in game and you can get this with little</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>or no effort. This throws the whole risk vs reward out of balance.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>And you certainly dont need relic armor to conquer heroic contents or easy raid mobs,</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>if you do need that then maybe you should start looking for other things that are wrong</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>with the people you bring or the tactics you use for these.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>And yes I agree with everyone that has said that relic pieces should only drop of nameds</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>in those zones and not the trash that you can farm without touching the nameds in</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>the zone.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Great gear for non raiders trivilaze the rest of the contents and thus ruins the game.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Can we let this thread die already and hope that SoE wont implement this kind of thing</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>again in the future.</FONT></P>

Yunga_511

07-28-2006, 04:51 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RinionX wrote:<BR> <DIV>so um, we are aware relic is only 7 peices of gear out of how many? if your woried about your elite status being questioned because everyone andthere mother has relic show off your shinny jewlery.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Relic is so generic anyway. its nothing special its the Sunrider Ranger gear (EQlive OoW) of EQ2 Great stats and effects but nothing special its just there so that the average group has a chance against dificult group instances and small raid zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For those that whine about oh its fabled. WHO CARES labeling armor was about the stupidest thing sony did imo. I dont care if it says fabled or legendary as long as it does its job.</DIV> <DIV>(also i dont care if it says leather or chain but thats another story..l(eather boots from deathtoll got a kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] proc, go to the ranger forums if u even care i posted about it there.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW! i farmed 20 relic peices this week with my guild out of labs! So I, ME, and MYSELF! RUINED Progresion in this game I mean becaue there is sooooo much content in this game....oh wait.... when is vanguard out again? =/</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you read my post carefully, You'll Understand why this isnt about my Status. Rather the Risk Vs Reward Diff</P> <P>Other than that, I Have no Idea what your talking about....But your Special</P><p>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:53 AM</span>

Yunga_511

07-28-2006, 04:52 PM

<P>Svek, They couldn't Care Less about the Progression of the Game, Rather themselfs.</P> <P>Its pointless to Share your Opinion Cause They will Not Accept the truth</P>

Rinio

07-28-2006, 04:56 PM

Its a long thread sir I was just makeing a general response, wasnt directed specificaly at you. but i am special thanks! mom says it happened when i was droped on my head at 6months.

Yunga_511

07-28-2006, 05:02 PM

<DIV>We're all Special in a Special Way I guess</DIV>

Ishbu

07-28-2006, 05:26 PM

<blockquote><hr>Methesa wrote:They have logged into the game, paying $15 a month. They have got 2 or 3 or even 4 groups together to kill mobs in a raid zone...x3 x4. They deserve loot just as much as anyone else for the 15 bucks they pay, just like you and others.<hr></blockquote>Thats a load of crap. They are entitled to NOTHING. If you want to raid you need to be able to log in after paying your 15bucks, get however many groups together and KILL the mobs that are supposed to drop the loot.By your logic I am entitled to EVERYTHING heroic mobs drop just for logging in and inviting a group. Let me say this again, NOBODY is entitled to ANYTHING for merely paying the fee, logging in, and putting a group/raid together. If you think that people are, your dead wrong.Relic dropping from a trash was a mistake. You will not be seeing the new raid armor sets drop from trash mobs in EoF. The developers understand that relic dropping off trash was a bad move and they are correcting it with the further progression in DoF. Nobody is entitled to wear relic for logging in.

Ishbu

07-28-2006, 05:27 PM

<blockquote><hr>RinionX wrote:<DIV>so um, we are aware relic is only 7 peices of gear out of how many? if your woried about your elite status being questioned because everyone andthere mother has relic show off your shinny jewlery.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Relic is so generic anyway. its nothing special its the Sunrider Ranger gear (EQlive OoW) of EQ2 Great stats and effects but nothing special its just there so that the average group has a chance against dificult group instances and small raid zones.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>For those that whine about oh its fabled. WHO CARES labeling armor was about the stupidest thing sony did imo. I dont care if it says fabled or legendary as long as it does its job.</DIV><DIV>(also i dont care if it says leather or chain but thats another story..l(eather boots from deathtoll got a kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] proc, go to the ranger forums if u even care i posted about it there.)</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>BTW! i farmed 20 relic peices this week with my guild out of labs! So I, ME, and MYSELF! RUINED Progresion in this game I mean becaue there is sooooo much content in this game....oh wait.... when is vanguard out again? =/</DIV><hr></blockquote>Grats on reading this whole therad and completely missing the point that has been stated several times. Or did you just not read it at all and post like you had a clue but actually didnt?

07-28-2006, 06:29 PM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Methesa wrote:<BR><BR>They have logged into the game, paying $15 a month. They have got 2 or 3 or even 4 groups together to kill mobs in a raid zone...x3 x4. They deserve loot just as much as anyone else for the 15 bucks they pay, just like you and others.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Paying your monthly fee is nothing more then SoE allowing you to play this game. It gives you the option to do as you please (within the rules of course) within the game. You have a certain amount of time you can or want to spend on the game you pay for. What you do with that time is up to you. This however does not mean that just because someone pays 10 bucks a month you are instantly entitled to anything the game has to offer. It means you are now allowed to go out and spend time and effort to get anything the game has to offer. In no way paying 10 bucks a month entitles you to own any kind of item, money or whatsoever in game, the only thing it serves for is basically your entry ticket to the world of Norrath. If you want to have certain items or money or a higher level character, you need to invest some of your time and effort into obtaining these goals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you want loot, fine, go invest time in either soloing your way around, grouping or raiding. This is where risk vs. reward kicks in. SoE themselves have often pointed out they wanted their game to offer the best rewards to those that are willing to take the biggest risks to obtain these rewards. In terms of loot this comes down to this:</DIV> <DIV>Those willing to try and kill mobs get rewards equal to the effort they put in (in a perfect situation). Killing the hardest solo boss should generally give you better loot then killing solo trash or the less difficult solo bosses. The same applies to group and raid mobs. Killing the hardest raid bosses should give better rewards because the risk involved is so much higher then the risk involved in killing lesser bosses or trash.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is just the way it is and it has nothing to do with being casual or hardcore, it has nothing to do with being in a (hardcore) raid guild or not and it most definately has nothing to do with how much anyone pays to play this game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now the ONLY problem pointed out here by those that have a clue, is that the risk vs. reward factor is royally scred up when it comes to relic armor. This, no matter how much you tell yourself it isn't, is some of the better - and for some classes/slots just the best - armor the entire game has to offer. ALL content, solo, group or raid, can be completed with just this armor. This armor drops off raid mobs that can be killed with one group and are no challenge at all to a full raid. This is why the risk vs. reward factor is so screwed up. You can beat the game with gear that drops off the easiest raid mobs there are, trash mobs and not even easy named mobs.</DIV> <DIV>It has nothing to do with the fact that 'we' are done benefitting from the relic armor dropping and are now asking for a nerf to keep us uber and you casuals all sucky noobs or whatever. </DIV> <DIV>It is a relatively new trend for non-raiders and casual raiders to organise pick-up raids for labs purely to farm relic day in day out. To say noone rang the bell earlier on is BS aswell because it has been done. It's just that with this new trend of relic farming that it is suddenly becoming a much bigger T7-wide problem. The possibility of farming relic has always existed, and we have pointed that out repeatedly. But be honest, how many people were doing this a month ago? I dare say only a handfull if any. Those people that did get relic obtained it from regularly doing the zones, including killing named mobs. Don't you adress a possible exploit when you are one of the few to know about it but keep it relatively quiet to avoid it becoming public knowledge? And don't you start shouting for a fix as soon as half the server does know about it and is abusing it? That is exactly what this thread is, no longer a 'please fix because it could become a problem later on' but a 'fix this now because it is getting out of hand!' thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now upping the lockout timers might or might not be the best solution to the problem there is, but something should be done to stop the flow of 'super-gear' to anyone with a couple spare hours at any given day. Sure, anyone can have relic or any kind of raid gear, but only as long as they put in the time and effort to live up to the risk vs. reward factor. Relic is among the better gear around (high reward) so shouldn't it then drop off the harder mobs (high risk)? I think so.</DIV>

Rinio

07-28-2006, 06:38 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RinionX wrote:<BR> <DIV>so um, we are aware relic is only 7 peices of gear out of how many? if your woried about your elite status being questioned because everyone andthere mother has relic show off your shinny jewlery.</DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <DIV>Relic is so generic anyway. its nothing special its the Sunrider Ranger gear (EQlive OoW) of EQ2 Great stats and effects but nothing special its just there so that the average group has a chance against dificult group instances and small raid zones.</DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <DIV>For those that whine about oh its fabled. WHO CARES labeling armor was about the stupidest thing sony did imo. I dont care if it says fabled or legendary as long as it does its job.</DIV><BR> <DIV>(also i dont care if it says leather or chain but thats another story..l(eather boots from deathtoll got a kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] proc, go to the ranger forums if u even care i posted about it there.)</DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <DIV>BTW! i farmed 20 relic peices this week with my guild out of labs! So I, ME, and MYSELF! RUINED Progresion in this game I mean becaue there is sooooo much content in this game....oh wait.... when is vanguard out again? =/</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Grats on reading this whole therad and completely missing the point that has been stated several times. Or did you just not read it at all and post like you had a clue but actually didnt?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually I just posted my opinion, err wait am I entitled to an opinion? Think I need to pay the subscription fees due on my god given rights... hmm. </P> <P>Well thank you for your kind words, your a very loving person as I can see Ishboozor. Would you like to go out on a date sometime? Because I think I love you</P>