Raiding and how it's Implamented in Future Expansions.

[espmrred]

<div></div><p>Well, at first I was going to post this as a reply in: "Re: - The reuse timer for Deathtoll now sets as soon as you enter." However, I got to thinking that, this really doesn't fit that topic of the OP, and besides I believe that this discussion warrents a thread of it's own. There seem to be quite a few of these posts recently, Elhron did a wonderful post about the lack of raid contest between T5, T6 and T7, however the last time I read through it, the debates seemed to be going every which direction. Isbhu and Kazora both made wonderful posts in the reuser timer for DT thread. Though, it was the quote below that got me to write this, I'm hoping we can actually have serious discussion, so that the devs can hopefully get a better understanding of what people in the raiding community actually want to see.</p><hr><p>Gaellen wrote:So what do I want to hear?  <u>Whether this is, or is not, a trend that will continue. </u> Will the amount of content available for raiders become more and more open-zone/contested based?  Will the number of instances decline further in the next expansion?  Is there any intention, at all, to return to more instanced raid content with lower timers?</p><hr><p>That's one of the things that most people are trying to figure out -- however I'll ask, what are the dev's supposed to do, when it doesn't matter what they do we'll still complain.</p><p>I think a vast majority of the raiders out there, will easily say there isnt enough content out there to satisfy raiders, if you take out the contested aspect. However truely think back towards the end of T5 how many people were bored with daily Ant/Cl/FR raids? Weren't most of us asking for more SotL type zones? (It was something knew, and for the most part we all liked it and wanted more). Isbhu brought up a very good point -- T5 was by far the longest time we've spent in a teir, and eventually things did get boring.</p><p>Still, that said in DoF we saw the devs give us something we'd be asking for -- More long instanced raid zones; it came at a price;that being lack of contested mobs , and a complete lack of 18-72 hour lockout zones (but at the end of T5 we were sick of those short zones anyway).</p><p>While in DoF the biggest gripe I heard, wasn't about lack of 18-72 hour raid zones, it was about the lack of contested mobs. We know that for a lot of people, they get the most enjoyment out of beating someone to a mob, they play for bragging rights. A lot of us, as raiders, have ego's and what better way to boost your ego, than to take that mob while others were too slow to get there, or had a bad pull, etc.</p><p>KoS address that issue with 2 Contested Zones (I don't think anyone at soe will say this worked like they'd hoped it would) and a plethera of Conteste Mobs (now granted some of these 'contested' mobs are relatively easy, but they're contested mobs nonetheless). We also have 1.5 Instanced Raid zones (I say 1.5 because it's Veymm's and Deathtoll currently, and was has been said before due to the access requirements (a good thing, IMO) it'll be a while before some people see that zone). There are also 2 unfinished Raid Zones that we'll see in LU22, LU23. Yes, it's going to be a while before we actually see these's zones but at least we know they're coming. We don't currently know the lockout, if Isbhu's info is correct and they're 72 hour lockouts that would be great.</p><p>So, now here we are a little over 6 weeks into KoS and we want more raid content; this time though we want those short quickie zones that we grew bored of in T5, so what's soe to do? We seem to change what we want depending on what we're lacking, is that a fair assumption?</p><p>Would people be happy with the following?</p><ul><li>2 Long Instanced Zones (toss in a 3rd, but have it require some sort of access to get into)</li><li>2 Short 1-2 Named Mob zones with 18 Hour Lockouts</li><li>1 Short 1-2 Named Mob zone with a 72 Hour Lockout</li><li>3-5 True Contested Mobs (ala Hurricanus, Princes, Mutagenic in KoS)</li><li>3-5 Semi Contested Mobs (ala Bonemire Crystals, etc)</li></ul><p>Would that work?</p><p>Sadly with the rate expansions are being produced we can't expect to get a raid environment like we had in T5, the teirs just aren't around long enough, nor do the developers have enough time to create that much raid content without skimping on the solo/group/tradeskill ascpets of this game.</p><p>All that said, I'm really curious, and anxious to see responses on what type of raid content you'd like to see in future expansions.</p><div></div>

[vinterskugge]

<div>My biggest problem with it is we have <em>nothing </em>to do.  Short instances, long instances, as long as it stops me sitting in my inn room in merchant mode during scheduled raid times, then it's got to be good.</div>

[MorgothTheTerrib]

<div></div>I'll pretty much take anything at this point. In T5 we had a ton of instances we could do each day. Not just that, but we had tons of contesteds to kill. T6 started slow, but we eventually had a nice variety. The Court, Gates, Lockjaw, Poets, Djinn Master, Maj'dul, Silent City, Fountain, etc. T7 we have nothing. Two instances? Two? And most guilds will never see Deathtoll, so that leaves them with one instance every 6 days. How the heck did we go from like 10 in DoF to 1 in KoS? Mindboggling. They either need to add like 3 more instanced raids zones to KoS now or shorten their reentry timer to 4 days. Who comes up with this stuff? Or should I ask, who doesn't?

[Mabes]

<div></div>Well, the new raid zone that is on test server, Lyceum of Abhorrance, is an instanced t7 raid zone, designed for full raid groups of level 70.  That's certainly good news, hopefully it's the first of several new t7 raid zones.

[HellRaiserXX]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I think the best options for SOE is to extend T7 out longer than T6.  Don't increase the level cap in the next expansion or don't add another actual expansion for a year or so. From a post in the Deathtoll lockout timer someone listed what content SOE added throughout the game.  Many of the T5 raid zones were not added at launch, they added progressively.  I think SOE has gone back to that somewhat with the release of 2 new raid zones in LU22 and 23. So I think what needs to be is to continue adding progressive content to T7, if Ishbu is correct we are getting at least 1 maybe 2 72hr zones. Add an 18hr zone in there.  If the two new ones coming don't involve the bugs than add either a 18hr or 24-36hr zone specifically for the bugs.</p><p>SOEs next goal should be to improve greatly upon KoS by adding new content to it, more raid zones with varied lockouts, additional instanced zones for groups, would be cool to have an instance at the bottom of Sanctum or top of Palace, a lot of zones in T5 had stuff like this. And while adding new content I doubt many people would complain at all if the current content was revised to make it less buggy and in many cases a bit more challenging.  The x2 contested in T5 from my experience were no pushover mobs, they were definately challenging for a x2 raid.  The monoliths in Bonemire seriously need their difficulty upped.</p><p>So what do I want to see?</p><p><font color="#ffcc33">1-2 3-day lockout raid zones (most likely we will be getting just that in the next couple live updates)</font></p><p><font color="#ffcc33">1-2 1 day lockout zones - something for guilds who are just coming into raiding to do.  Angler was an excellent raid primer.  You cut your teeth for the first time raiding on Angler and it would be cool to see some more of this for the more casual raiding guilds. Maybe one "primer" zone and one considerably more difficult zone.</font></p><p><font color="#ffcc33">1 additional 6 day lockout zone, could either be something like Lockjaw and I enjoyed that encounter immensely, wasn't extremely difficult, but it was a fun encounter and had some nostagia to it cause we all remember Lockjaw from EQ1.</font></p><p><font color="#ffcc33">Increase the difficulty and like the x2 contested and the monoliths.  I think any of the dragons needed for Deathtoll should be left as is or only give a slight increase in power since we want them to be killable by even casual raiding guilds whether or not they will be able to survive in Deathtoll or not. </font>Getting PP:R access was pretty easy for anyone wanting it, but actually doing well in PP:R was another story and I think Deathtoll is meant to be similar.</p><p><font color="#ffcc33">I would like to see more quest lines like the ones in DoF.  Ones that gave very decent rewards and could be mostly soloed or small grouped, like that Flowing Thought necklace in DoF.</font> I know that isn't totally raid oriented, but currently all the major quest lines I have found end in raiding content which is fine for the raiders, but what about the casual base.  Claymore quest line gives excellent rewards, but the average player is never going to see the end result for themselves.  Peacock quest line is similar, but the end zone was attainable by most casual raid guilds, whether or not they could actually defeat Godking was up to them.  With Claymore, few players and fewer guilds are going to realize Deathtoll until the next expansion comes out because the mobs are so hard to get a hold of. This may have to be solved by the player base on each server. Those of us in top guilds should maybe step back and allow other guilds their shot.  You all say that the loot from these encounters is generally pitiful so why control them so forcefully? Yes they are contested, but are also required for quest updates and I think it would go a long way to improve the rep of raiding guilds in the eyes of the rest of the community, but that is another topic for another day.</p><p>I think if SOE continues to crank out expansions every 6months their content is going to become more and more lacking because they have to cut out stuff or cut corners to make their deadlines. If your players are happy with their current content then they will buy the expansions when they are released regardless because the previous product is of good quality and they expect that from the new content.  DoF was pretty bug free at launch, all the zones worked pretty much to specification even if there was quite a bit cut out from what I understand, what was there worked very well.  KoS is not the case, so much has been exploited early on in KoS because the expansion wasn't ready IMO. Bugs abound and with the server mergers stuff was so crowded it was almost unplayable in the first couple weeks. I am a little mystified that SOE did not see that one coming and had the zones instanced at launch, but oh well, at least most are now. If you are able to add a little bit of content here and there throughout you can prolong the necessity of releasing a new expansion and make it that much better at launch.</p><p><font color="#ffcc33">And most importantly, expecially with KoS.  I would like to see more dev communication with the players on upcoming additions.</font>  If we had known earlier that we were getting more raid content in future LUs I dont think there would have been this much talk.  Im sure there would have beeen some, but nothing compared to what is currently on the boards right now. All those posts and not one dev response until the Deathtoll timer one.  If you had responded and said "Planning is underway to introduce additional raid/group/solo (mainly raid) in the next live update" a long time ago I think people would have been more interested in the details of the zone than the lack of content.</p><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:09 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:12 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:20 AM</span></p>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div>Im posting this here since I got the other topic locked as it wasn't even about raid content.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><div>In T5 Raid content was added after launch, in t6 more content opened up after launch (wether due to bugs or cockblocks), why do you think T7 will be any different?</div><div> </div><div>Do I wish there was more raid Content? Of course</div><div> </div><div>Do I wish that it was there since launch? Absolutely.</div><div> </div><div>Do I blame the Developers? Not at all. If anyone is to blame it is John Smedly and His bean counters for trying to push an expansion out every 6months and not giving his development team enough time to polish it and finish adding enough content for everybody. ( In this regard I DO wish EQ2 took a lesson from WoW and extended their development cycles for expansions to 9 months)</div><div> </div><div>More raid content will come, at least 2 more raid zones are on the horizion.</div><div> </div><div>I'm not going to throw a hissy fit over it.</div></div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><div></div><div>With all that said, I'd like to post something from the FoH Boards (Non Eq2), that Smed wrote, and the repsonse from one of the board posters which was spot on imho, this was in regards to an interview he did with CBS News:</div><div> </div><div><hr></div><div><div><div>Quote:</div><div>Originally Posted by <strong>Gnome Eater</strong></div><div>No real outrageous answers there from Smed, he did take the easy way out on answering why WoW beat the everliving [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] out of EQ2 though.Smed, one question I am very curious about which you may or may not be able to answer. WoW was in semi-public Beta for well over 9 months, with a very intense number of testers, and it contributed in large part to making the game very polished and virtually bug free at launch.Do you feel that this has changed the attitude of the MMORPG industry towards the publish or die mentality? The non-hardcore MMORPG player quite simply won't put up at all with gamecrashing bugs/non polished UI, and quite often in the past, products that were not tested nearly enough were thrown out early, with the idea of 'we will patch it later'.You already answered that you several times asked to hold back a title to polish it even further, but never EVER to nearly the extent that Blizzard has. I was in the StarCraft original beta, and that game took [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing FOREVER to come out, it was delayed over a year I think, and spent that entire time in beta tweaking unit balance, but look at how well it is doing now.What I am saying in conclusion in - Do you feel that any other game will follow in the footsteps and have a 9+ months beta with loads of testers, or publishers still won't let you do this even after seeing the economical benefits?</div></div></div><div> </div><div><hr></div><div><div>I think it's going to be game-by-game. Blizzard's beta was great.. it helped them polish the game and it also helped them on the technical side (remember this was their first MMO). For us 9 months is probably too long.. I think the ideal # is closer to 3 months of closed beta and 3 months of open beta. We would likely go longer on a Playstation 3 MMO (if such a beast was in fact in development <img border="0" src="http://www.fohguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif" alt="">)It can really help to build awareness of a game and get polish ready. One thing I will say about Blizzard's beta is that they got WoW very well balanced day one which is something I really respect them for. I think we managed that with EQ2 as well.Smed</div><div>__________________John SmedleyPresident, Sony Online Entertainment</div><div> </div><div><hr></div></div><p> </p><p>And then the most excellent reply by Sylas, one of the board posters:</p><p></p><hr><div>riiiight sure you did buddy, suuuuure you did.edit: to elaborate before I get banned or something, let me just say that, yeah, I know you can't say what we all know. You've gotta remain strong and in defense of the work you did, gotta keep up the PR fluff and I understand all of that. But honestly here, you know (atleast you better) that we're not sheep, we don't have the memories of gold fish here, you can't go back and revise history to suit your particular spin of the day.To clarify something, WoW was in F&F alpha for 4-6 months or, went into a small beta around december and then opened up from their to the large public beta that it was in. The beta period itself was closer to 11 months including the open beta and stress test, not 9. The fact is, WoW was in beta being tested and polished for longer than SWG was in development from start to launch, and the difference between them is clear, its night and day man.You're the president of SOE and you just said publically that 9 months was too long for you guys. You're the decision maker here and its evident that you really just don't get it. 9 months is too long? Wrong answer pal. 9 months of a non-NDA beta? Sure, I see where you are coming from here. 9 months of a beta of that size? alright, sure. But 9 months is too long, period? This is exactly what your customers have been complaining about for all of these years. You didn't manage to accomplish the polish or balance that WoW did in your 3 month F&F alpha (being generous here) and your 6 week closed NDA extremely limited beta. Not even close, by a few orders of magnitude.Now i'm not knocking your game. I DL'd the trial of the isle the other week to test out the new player experience and I have to say that its really starting to shape up. I've said it before but Gallenite is truly a miracle worker and I for one am surprised that he doesn't have your job yet. But please, don't insult us with your rose colored glasses of the state of play you launched in. You should be looking at the launch of WoW and making 9 months the minimum you spend polishing your games, not the other way around.</div><div><hr></div><p> </p><p>What's my point in all this? If Soe Spent more time developing and polishing their games as opposed to trying to meet a self imposed deadline every 6 months to push out rushed and unfinished products, their sales and reputation would only benefit.</p><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:31 AM</span></p>

[Elro]

<div>With t</div>

[Elro]

<div></div><div><p><span>Sorry for the duplicate post.  With the content in its current shape I can agree that this isn’t the devs fault... completely.  What I ascertain out of this is that people were whining for more in-depth content.  So they got it.  They didn’t get quantity, just a few quests that are of quality.  What totally miffs me is that with projects and launches of products they have to ascertain a “life-span “ of said product so they can keep up with their customers demand.  That right there is the general marketing 101, and IMO you failed.  What I can’t seem to grasp is regardless of any model projecting how you figured this would keep your player base content.  As I stated on many other post, you’re not getting the big picture.  Your seasoned guilds are out of content, your casual gamers have even posted that they are out of content. <span> </span>People are playing alts, because of lack of content so utilizing logs to get your level base / play times is far from accurate.<span>  </span>Unless a zone is available or a contested is up people aernt on.<span>  </span>Pull my character up and check my log times since Ive hit 70 and killed deathtoll.<span>  </span>Jack squat.<span>  </span>Pull my hours.<span>  </span>I’m just one example.<span>  </span></span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>So, here is the brass tacts of it.  Right now from what I can gather is that development isn’t given enough time to properly develop the next expansion.  That right there falls back on to you Mr Smedly.  You either have to do 1 of 2 things.  Either find a way to make assets available to develop products that are of quality and keep your customer base intrigued or they will find another product.  Or choice # 2, which Imo would be better.  Utilize your assets and ask people in your little stupid pop up questionnaires how we are doing with our content, and then re-evaluate your position. <span> </span>You have the audacity to ask for us to vote for your company as game of the year ( Last years constant reminder for DoF for nomination ), But right now, you have people lighting up your boards asking for improvements and not one dam response.<span>  </span>Do you see where Im going?  This isn’t Moorguards problem, this is your problem.  If you need more assets to give your customers what they want, find em and delegate.  If your continued stance is going to be good enough for today good enough for tomorrow then you by simple definition have zero credibility with your customer base and should do us all a favor and resign.</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Elrohn</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>70 Templar of Dissolution.</span></p><p><span><font color="#000000"></font></span> </p></div><p>Message Edited by Elrohn on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:05 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Elrohn on <span class="date_text">04-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:06 PM</span></p>

[Kraks_Aforty]

I hate the 1 day lockout stuff for raid zones.  It has no epic feel to it and jack squat for Lore.  I enjoy the raiding game even more when it has an actual meaning to it other than just fishing for loot.  LVL, Godking, Pedestal were some of my favorites.  Even though I hate the DMP fight, I love the lore leading up to it and the meaning of everything.Please please please, do not put in pointless loot farms.<div></div>

[vinterskugge]

<div>I know they're both new zone, but Temple of Scale and Ascent of the Awakened both need serious revamps.  Instead of just adding new zones, changing these two would dramatically increase the content available.</div><div> </div><div>Temple of Scale offers about 30 minutes to an hour of content each week.  And that's to the entire server, not to each guild.  Something needs to be done to make this a viable zone to raid whether Harla is up or not.  Right now it's only use is to house Harla, and I don't see the point in having a whole zone of this size, just for one mob a week.</div><div> </div><div>And the Ascent....I've not seen any posts from or spoken to anyone who likes this zone.  It's horrible.  Make the encounters a bit more challenging and fun.  Make the loot a bit better.  Anything!  Just make it worthwhile.  Now we have Deathtoll access, we really have no reason to come back here, ever.</div>

[Benboe]

Since the fanfaire already started - any news on this topic? I would really love to know whyt direction this game is taking, more into Competition or "back to the roots" with loads of instnaced content and some contestables?Oovaan, 70 Necromancer, Runnyeye<div></div>

[Duhulk]

<div></div>From a personal life style point of view, it doesn't bother me to have nights off. However, having more nights off than raid nights does suggest a serious lack of content. But they're fixing it.

[selch]

<div></div><div></div><p>One thing:</p><p>I'm a duo player (not two box, real duo) and able to have fun a lot with our set up, till expansions. If next expansions are going to be based on raid, not just me, silent majority who does not come here and whine about contested raid zones will be "OUTTA HERE".</p><p>T7 was a disappointment so far for people like me. If they only target for raid players to have fun but only use other playstyles mentioning for marketing and seeing them "just grinders" (eg. no decent quest , story line but just "mobs to kill"-- ) will be end for most, even most raiding guilds to collapse due to lack of new bloods.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class="date_text">04-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:43 PM</span></p>

[vinterskugge]

<div>We're not saying "get rid of all the solo/group content and just focus on raids" though.  We just want the raid content to be implemented better than it is right now.</div>

[selch]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<div>We're not saying "get rid of all the solo/group content and just focus on raids" though.  We just want the raid content to be implemented better than it is right now.</div><hr></blockquote><p>I know but what I want to point is, they DID focused on "only" raid content in KoS and what others had is "here tons of solo mobs to kill for you and just shut up and grind"</p><p>Most quests ended with raid mobs and content. I wanted to point if next expansions will be like that also, it would be a bad move.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[StoneySilen]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<div>We're not saying "get rid of all the solo/group content and just focus on raids" though.  We just want the raid content to be implemented better than it is right now.</div><hr></blockquote><p>SOE has a bad reputation of doing that though.  They did it to us in EQL ruining that game, they tried fixing it but by then it was too late we all had moved on.  It's about time that SOE woke up and realized raider's are a small part of the population and to quit catering to them at the cost of their normal fanbase.</p><p>So in short, forget raids.</p>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>StoneySilence wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<div>We're not saying "get rid of all the solo/group content and just focus on raids" though.  We just want the raid content to be implemented better than it is right now.</div><hr></blockquote><p>SOE has a bad reputation of doing that though.  They did it to us in EQL ruining that game, they tried fixing it but by then it was too late we all had moved on.  It's about time that SOE woke up and realized raider's are a small part of the population and to quit catering to them at the cost of their normal fanbase.</p><p>So in short, forget raids.</p><hr></blockquote><p>The game is Designed for Group/Raid play and some solo play, we have just as much right as ever grouper, or soloer to ask our content be complete and finished. If soe doesn't have the resources to fulfill that, it's a SOE problem that they need to fix not ours.</p><p>Go start your own threads about solo and group content before coming here and flaming us just for wanting meaningfull and working content.</p>

[StoneySilen]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>StoneySilence wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>vinterskugge wrote:<div>We're not saying "get rid of all the solo/group content and just focus on raids" though.  We just want the raid content to be implemented better than it is right now.</div><hr></blockquote><p>SOE has a bad reputation of doing that though.  They did it to us in EQL ruining that game, they tried fixing it but by then it was too late we all had moved on.  It's about time that SOE woke up and realized raider's are a small part of the population and to quit catering to them at the cost of their normal fanbase.</p><p>So in short, forget raids.</p><hr></blockquote><p>The game is Designed for Group/Raid play and some solo play, we have just as much right as ever grouper, or soloer to ask our content be complete and finished. If soe doesn't have the resources to fulfill that, it's a SOE problem that they need to fix not ours.</p><p>Go start your own threads about solo and group content before coming here and flaming us just for wanting meaningfull and working content.</p><hr></blockquote>And I had the same right as a grouper in EQL but that didn't stop the raider's from getting on their high horses and telling me to lump it or leave it.  So basically I don't give a rats rear about raids and if they ever get done or are ever added.  If you don't like it tough, you can always go back to EQL.

[ChaosUndivided]

<div>This isn't Eq1.</div>

[espmrred]

<div></div>and like every other thread where Raiders try to speak about RAID issues, this thread has gotten completly off the original topic. HellRaiserXX was really the only poster so far who has posted what they'd like to see, and what type of instances, not just rambling off what they don't want to see.

[Caetrel]

Your list seems great, at least 2 big instanced zones for certain.  I'd also like to see at least one small 6-day lockout zone, with guaranteed steel, like K'Dal, Lockjaw, Angler.<div></div>

[StoneySilen]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>espmrred wrote:<div></div>and like every other thread where Raiders try to speak about RAID issues, this thread has gotten completly off the original topic. HellRaiserXX was really the only poster so far who has posted what they'd like to see, and what type of instances, not just rambling off what they don't want to see.<hr></blockquote><p>It's not our fault that raider's made such rear ends of themselves in EQL that all of us who escaped that game to come here are fighting tooth and nail not to turn EQ2 into EQL.</p>

[HellRaiserXX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StoneySilence wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> espmrred wrote:<BR> and like every other thread where Raiders try to speak about RAID issues, this thread has gotten completly off the original topic. HellRaiserXX was really the only poster so far who has posted what they'd like to see, and what type of instances, not just rambling off what they don't want to see.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's not our fault that raider's made such rear ends of themselves in EQL that all of us who escaped that game to come here are fighting tooth and nail not to turn EQ2 into EQL.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dude get off this thread.  If you aren't a raider don't talk here.  Its fine if you feel there is lacking in group/solo content in all, but this thread is about raiding and what the raiders want to see.  KoS is lacking in many many things and this thread is about how raiding is lacking and what we want to see happen.  Go start your own thread about what you want to see in group/solo content. Now to the non raiders who read this thread.  There will never be enough group content, its too easy and even easier in KoS. If you started EQ2 from the beginning like I did, you will have done pretty much everything there is to do that is worth doing and the only thing left is to raid. So, you can't blame us for wanting more content when it is seriously lacking.  Group and solo content goes by way to fast for there ever to be enough to satisfy anyone who doesn't raid, so my advice, if you want something else to do, join a casual raiding guild who does a few raids every now and then, but don't devote their lives to it. For me group and solo content is basically a means to level, once Im done leveling I rarely ever use it.<p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:52 AM</span>