Lab of Lord Vyemm empty

[Eet]

<div></div><div>Apparently GM's manually depopped the zone and booted out guilds that were in there. Was empty when we zoned in at midnight EST tonight.</div><div> </div><div>I suppose it's because of the relic armor farming. I wonder if they plan to radically change the drop rate or just add a guaranteed 6-day timer similar to T6 instances.</div><div> </div><div>I guess the real question is how big of an advantage will the guilds who got in there and farmed full sets have over those that weren't quick enough.</div><div> </div><div><font size="1">edited to fix typo</font></div><p>Message Edited by Eetum on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:32 AM</span></p>

[FlintAH]

Yes but now it is free xp and AA.  Went there and got 8% xp and 20% AA just exploring at lvl 69.<div></div>

[Eet]

<div></div><p>Sweet! When new expansions release, all the zones should be hollowed out so you can explore them. Then the zones can be populated one by one as the content is actually finished!</p>

[sorinev]

Zone randomly depoped on us too. Except we weren't booted or anything. So we were just left in there with our thumbs up our butts wondering double-you tee eff was going on. No GM/CS to pop in and say what's going on, no in-game message, nothing. Just depopped and left to figure out what was going on or wait for copy/paste replies from the cs bots that say "no more lab for a few days. go check forums."Nice.

[CrazedMut]

<div></div><p><strong>IF</strong> this was not a bug and was intended and SOE did purposefully  depop the entire zone without any warning or explanation, then this is absolutely disgusting behaviour. I feel for the all the guilds that were in there when the mobs depopped (the ones that were attempting the zone properly). This is a prime example of the lack of communication between the Customer Support/GMs and customers. Why not tell customers you are interrupting their game experience.</p>

[Siriel]

Obviously the relic armor farming is an <u><b>exploit</b></u>, and 3 weeks after KoS release some guilds are near full fabled with relic armors while the others cannot raid in Lord's Vyemm Laboratory...An now what ? Will the dev reset the relic armors so people who used this exploit no longer keep the fruit of this CHEAT ????A good idea in my opinion....<div></div>

[Kraks_Aforty]

Something Punitive, as it was obviously not intended.  Any guildleader of a raiding guild that says they thought otherwise is lying through their teeth.<div></div>

[thedu]

How do you get to this zone btw?<div></div>

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Siriel wrote:An now what ? Will the dev reset the relic armors so people who used this exploit no longer keep the fruit of this CHEAT ????A good idea in my opinion....<div></div><hr></blockquote>That's exactly what they need to do but don't hold your breath.

[bobbit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>thedump wrote:How do you get to this zone btw?<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>bonemire->drednever crash[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e->hall of fate:</p><p>go down bridge, then climb up wall... click orb on top.</p>

[pera]

I would almost bet, tthat they will not do anything about any of the relic loot that previously droped.  this is no differnt from DoF when loot was droping like mad out of Silent City and a level 57 master was the reward for completling a quest untill like a month after DoF was live that they decied it was a bad idea.no differnt ,nothing will change, the devs will do nothing as useal.<div></div>

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>perano wrote: a level 57 master was the reward for completling a quest<div></div><hr></blockquote>Lol....I knew someone would bring that up. A master spell as a quest reward is not even on the same planet as guilds farming 50 pieces of fabled armor in a matter of days.

[KBern]

<div></div><p>I would bet money that no fix will be coming in that is retroactive.</p><p>Oh noes they got a head start!</p><p>Who cares...the same raids will be there for everyone else, and contested's are not about who can kill it faster, but who can get to it first and this stuff does not help your guild mobilize any faster.</p><p>And no, I have not even set foot in the place yet let alone gotten any armor from there.</p><p>Big deal...now we can only go in once per week while others went in much more than that....I wont lose any sleep over it.</p>

[Vellek]

<div></div><div></div><p>I am not so sure this wasnt intended, or was an exploit. Call me a liar Cracatoa, but I really dont believe it. I mean what is the harm in farming some trash mobs for rare relic molds/patterns? It was done quite extensively in EQ1 in multiple zones. Kill a named and get a six day lockout. Doesnt seem that big a deal to me at all. We have an entire guild on our server with multiple devs and various other high profile players and they were also farming this zone trying to get their members equipped. How is it an exploit?</p><p>If it is, so be it, but if they instill a lockout timer now for killing trash mobs, the guilds who have farmed this zone extensively will be that much ahead of other guilds who havent gotten a chance yet. It isnt fair to them, and I just dont see why it is necessary to get a lockout of such a fun zone for killing some trash.</p><p>Message Edited by Vellek on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:14 PM</span></p>

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Vellek wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>I am not so sure this wasnt intended, or was an exploit.</p><hr></blockquote><p>The zones completely empty of mobs and your not sure it was an exploit or intended? I don't blame guilds for doing what they did but they need to either</p><p>A) Not change anything</p><p>B)Remove all the existing relic and add a lockout</p><p>C) A or B</p>

[imready2go]

<div></div><p>"We have an entire guild on our server with multiple devs and various other high profile players and they were also farming this zone trying to get their members equipped. "</p><p>So ... <u>after</u> these devs farmed the zone they depopped the zone to fix the "exploit".  Priceless.  They designed the zone so they could easily equip their friends, then realized their "mistake" and put a halt to the easy farming so others couldn't do the same thing they just did.  You have to give them credit for being clever enough to pull that one off.</p>

[Vellek]

<div></div><p>You are totally mistaken. They had only just gotten there. Hadnt really been there much before last night, if ever. I wouldnt start making inferences and accusations without knowing the story. You guys are priceless, lol.</p><p>And yes Koenig, the zone was brought down and depopped. Was it because people were farming for some mediocre and very rare mold drops? Seems odd if so. They never took down TOV or Kaels because people were farming mold drops. I realize Vyemms is supposed to be an instance, but I also know everyone was hoping for a zone like this where they could farm trash for rare mold, class specific armor drops.</p><p>The zone lags like crazy sometimes, especially when multiple guilds are in there. I am not so sure they didnt bring this zone down to fix some server/lag issues and not to stop people killing trash for rare mold drops. No one knows why they brought it down but the developers who did it.</p>

[Murchik]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Vellek wrote:<div></div><p>You are totally mistaken. They had only just gotten there. Hadnt really been there much before last night, if ever. I wouldnt start making inferences and accusations without knowing the story. You guys are priceless, lol.</p><p>And yes Koenig, the zone was brought down and depopped. Was it because people were farming for some mediocre and very rare mold drops? Seems odd if so. They never took down TOV or Kaels because people were farming mold drops. I realize Vyemms is supposed to be an instance, but I also know everyone was hoping for a zone like this where they could farm trash for rare mold, class specific armor drops.</p><p>The zone lags like crazy sometimes, especially when multiple guilds are in there. I am not so sure they didnt bring this zone down to fix some server/lag issues and not to stop people killing trash for rare mold drops. No one knows why they brought it down but the developers who did it.</p><hr></blockquote>this one word comes to mind reading this...<font color="#ffff00"><span>Naïve</span></font>

[Noah]

<div></div><p>A part of Velious that everyone loved was "farming molds".   People enjoyed raiding stuff nightly in hopes of getting some matching armor and gearing up for "the tuff stuff".   If guilds want to spend hours and hours gearing up, whats the issue with that?  ToV was a huge success....  and honestly, KoS/EQ2 needs something like that.   Perhaps Lab wasnt the best place for it but somewhere it is needed.  </p><p>The relic armor is not the "best of the best" items in KoS but it is matching, decent, and can feed 1000s of people.  About time there was a way to get a matching set of something imo.  I remember in EQ1 keeping my set from Fear, ToV, the Planes... all of it banked for years... why?  It was a set.  If this turns out to just drop in an instance zone with a 7 day lockout, that nostalgia will never be captured and once again people will be mismatched.</p><p>As far as "getting stuff taken away"...  talk about a CS nightmare not to mention the multiple times in the past where far more gross issues were never dealt with (not some Master 1 crap).  Personally, I think it was intentional but then after seeing what was happening - it was rethought and removed.  </p><p>I hope they put something similar back in.  Maybe a small lock out of a few hours for killing just trash.... Perhaps move the molds to a contested raid zone to farm... something that can fill in the gap of when guilds are fully locked out.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Keldo]

I pretty much agree with everything Noah said.  Armor drops or quests that produce a complete set of matching armor is something every person looks forward too, and I will be disappointed if we never complete any sets due to it only dropping in 1 instanced long lockout zone.<div></div>

[Ratty31]

<div></div><p> Wouldn't the mobs repop in the zone if this was intended to be "farmed"? You can try and rationalize this any way you'd like but the simple fact of the matter is you knew it wasn't intended but you continued to zone in and out in and out in and out without touching any of the named mobs.</p><p>How is this any different than tier 5 when guilds would leave 1 person inside for the kill shot then rinse and repeat untill they were out of tanks without lockouts? That was labeled an exploit can't imagine this won't be labeld the same.</p>

[Vellek]

<div></div><p>If it was an exploit to zone out and back in, that is fine. The reason guilds were doing it was to have something to farm for set armor. I dont think the reason was malicious or harmful to the game. I believe an exploit would have involved the named encounters in some shape or form.</p><p>A perfect solution to this would be what Noah has suggested. Maybe put molds on Ascent mobs, since they are more difficult and dont seem to have much of a loot table anyway.</p>

[KBern]

<div>All raid instances should have a lockout.</div><div> </div><div>It was a mistake on SOE's part, not an exploit on the players part.</div><div> </div><div>IF they are fixing it now, great, but no reason to call people cheaters who went in, beat the mobs, and got loot.</div><div> </div><div>The same [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] was going on with the PP access quest that gave masters.</div><div> </div><div>When it was changed and the master reward ended....sooo many people sat on here and called the people who had the masters exploiters...."Oh you should of known..."</div><div> </div><div>Well with SOE, and MMORPG's and the things they do, there is no "shoulda known..." with things like lockout timers.</div><div> </div><div>Shoulda suspected maybe, but known...no.</div>

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div> </div><div>It was a mistake on SOE's part, not an exploit on the players part.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>The same [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] was going on with the PP access quest that gave masters.</div><div> </div><div>When it was changed and the master reward ended....sooo many people sat on here and called the people who had the masters exploiters...."Oh you should of known..."</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>When sony makes a mistake and people take advantage of it it's called an exploit.</p><p>And noone called people that finished a quest and recieved a reward that wasn't intended exploiters. If we could have repeated the quest over and over each time receiveing a master then we would have been exploiting.</p>

[Murchik]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div>All raid instances should have a lockout.</div><div> </div><div>It was a mistake on SOE's part, not an exploit on the players part.</div><div> </div><div>IF they are fixing it now, great, but no reason to call people cheaters who went in, beat the mobs, and got loot.</div><div> </div><div>The same [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] was going on with the PP access quest that gave masters.</div><div> </div><div>When it was changed and the master reward ended....sooo many people sat on here and called the people who had the masters exploiters...."Oh you should of known..."</div><div> </div><div>Well with SOE, and MMORPG's and the things they do, there is no "shoulda known..." with things like lockout timers.</div><div> </div><div>Shoulda suspected maybe, but known...no.</div><hr></blockquote><p>see, if they went in and killed everything, then zoned out and went in again, then it would be soe fault.  People who farmed this, knew not to kill named to avoid lockout, which was the intended script for the zone.  It sure borders on being an exploit.  I think soe did their usual self, one person designed zone with its lockout rules, another one designed armor that would be recieved from dropped relic pieces, someone else designed other things... But noone actually talked to each other to see what the outcome would be, not even going into why this hasnt been tested!</p><p>The story with master 1 reward for access to PP was not exactly as you say.  Many people got upset because they changed the reward after some weeks of release, giving the people who did it sooner the far better reward then others.</p>

[espmrred]

<div>If people want a matching set of class specific armor, and they think relic will accomplish that, drop it down to Treasured or Legendary and adjust the stats then.</div><div> </div><div>While relic armor isn't the "end all" armor in KoS it's pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good and sadly, better than we've seen off Hurricanus or Harla Dar, etc</div>

[Sanju]

It's not an exploit any more than farming Admiral Marcus* was an exploit.Unintended, maybe, but certainly not an exploit or "cheating".No one that has farmed these is doing anything against the rules. It's not like the raid has to do anything special to get the zone to respawn ... if they had to do the hokey-pokey to somehow avoid a lockout timer I'd agree, but they don't. All you have to do is zone in, kill trash, zone out, repeat. There are many other zones in the game that work the same way -- no lockout timer untill or unless you kill a named.How is anyone to know that this one is "supposed" to be different? Because of the relic drops? Please. Relic gear is not all that great. Some of it's pure garbage. It's low-end fabled gear, that is time consuming to get, but attainable for most guilds. *shrug**(highlight for spoilers):<font color="#330000">Admiral Marcus was a mob in DoF that was extremely easy to kill, and he respawned every 5 minutes. He dropped a Master or Legendary chest every time he was killed, containing either Master I spells, T6 Legendary tradeskill components, or T6 Fabled tradeskill components (which were removed from the game, but once removed they sold for a great deal to an NPC merchant.) He also had a rather nice ring that he could drop, the Pearl Ring of Admiral Marcus. After this "unintended" mob was found and corrected, nothing was ever done to those who farmed him, despite all the spells, cobalts, ironwoods, etc. that they got.</font><div></div>

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sanju wrote:It's not an exploit any more than farming Admiral Marcus* was an exploit.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Ok so make the fabled items useless and you can vendor them.

[Ddrak]

Noah hit it on the head - people want to farm armor sets. It's a great game concept. Best solution would be to put a 20 hour lockout for killing trash and longer for killing named. That stops people farming it over and over (if that is what the problem was) and still allows a more moderate farm in line with every other instance in KoS.Personally I was disappointed to take our guild's first trip into the Lab and have the whole thing despawned about an hour later as we were making our way through exploring. Took us a while to figure we hadn't triggered some sort of event. Was it really that much of a problem to just make a global announcement that you were taking it down for whatever reason?Dd

[Scort]

<div></div><div></div><p>SOE has not come out and said this is an exploit and they are the ONLY people who's definition of an exploit means anything at all. You can cry and whine and say exploit all day long but, that doesn't make it one. Your definition means nothing, only SOE's does. Your idea of what is morally right or wrong means zilch also and you don't have a right to try and push your idea of morals on other people.</p><p>Just because they took down a zone, does not mean it was being exploited. They could have taken it down because stuff was dropping too often or something else. This is totally SOE's fault and not the fault of the players. It's not the fault of the players for taking advantage (IF that's what they were doing) of this. It's the fault of SOE for not properly testing this stuff before releasing it. The fault rest squarely on SOE's shoulders.</p><p>With that said, people are making Relic armor and how much was gotten out to be much more of a big deal than it is. Relic armor is about MATCHING CLASS specific gear. Sure, it's nice gear but, there are a LOT of legendary pieces that are dropping ALL OVER and can be FARMED just as easily, that are just as nice, if not nicer than Relic gear. The legendary stuff can be gotten very easily by single groups also.</p><p>So what if guild spent days on end in there using their game time to farm for MATCHING CLASS specific gear? It's no different than all the guilds and groups farming everything else in this xpak for just as good legendary/fabled gear.</p><p>Guess what? That Relic armor with crappy drop rates will be replaced in a month with dropped fabled gear from the end game zones that CAN be done in t6 fabled or t7 legendary gear that drops like candy. You don't HAVE TO HAVE Relic stuff. It will also be replaced in a about 5 months with t8 gear and guess what? With the changes, most people will STILL NOT HAVE a full set of relic gear. Heck, look how many people FINALLY got around to just starting to get nice t6 fabled gear from end game zones, only to have it replaced in a month by t7 legendary stuff that drops like candy.</p><p>People are making a mountain out of a mole hill here.</p><p>Relic isn't just about stats, you can get legendary t7 gear with stats just as good or better and it drops easily. It's more about having a decent set of MATCHED gear.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:27 PM</span></p>

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>SOE has not come out and said this is an exploit and they are the ONLY people who's definition of an exploit means anything at all. You can cry and whine and say exploit all day long but, that doesn't make it one. Your definition means nothing, only SOE's does. Your idea of what is morally right or wrong means zilch also and you don't have a right to try and push your idea of morals on other people.</p><p>Just because they took down a zone, does not mean it was being exploited. They could have taken it down because stuff was dropping too often or something else. This is totally SOE's fault and not the fault of the players. It's not the fault of the players for taking advantage (IF that's what they were doing) of this. It's the fault of SOE for not properly testing this stuff before releasing it. The fault rest squarely on SOE's shoulders.</p><p>With that said, people are making Relic armor and how much was gotten out to be much more of a big deal than it is. Relic armor is about MATCHING CLASS specific gear. Sure, it's nice gear but, there are a LOT of legendary pieces that are dropping ALL OVER and can be FARMED just as easily, that are just as nice, if not nicer than Relic gear. The legendary stuff can be gotten very easily by single groups also.</p><p>So what if guild spent days on end in there using their game time to farm for MATCHING CLASS specific gear? It's no different than all the guilds and groups farming everything else in this xpak for just as good legendary/fabled gear.</p><p>Guess what? That Relic armor with crappy drop rates will be replaced in a month with dropped fabled gear from the end game zones that CAN be done in t6 fabled or t7 legendary gear that drops like candy. You don't HAVE TO HAVE Relic stuff. It will also be replaced in a about 5 months with t8 gear and guess what? With the changes, most people will STILL NOT HAVE a full set of relic gear. Heck, look how many people FINALLY got around to just starting to get nice t6 fabled gear from end game zones, only to have it replaced in a month by t7 legendary stuff that drops like candy.</p><p>People are making a mountain out of a mole hill here.</p><p>Relic isn't just about stats, you can get legendary t7 gear with stats just as good or better and it drops easily. It's more about having a decent set of MATCHED gear.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Ohhhhh now I undertstand it's about matching gear...Okkkkk now I see.....there's plenty of legendary gear with  stats and resists, procs that lower recast timers, increase dmg and heals and have  high mitigation and flowing thought 8. Thank you for clearing this all up for us Scortch. And thanks for emphasizing all of your more rediclulas statements by useing your CAPSLOCK KEY.

[Scort]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>You are welcome. Glad I could clear this up for you. Have a nice day. It's obvious I need to be more simplistic for you though. You missed the part about decent matching armor, not just decent armor like any of the legendary stuff that's being farmed by groups and drops like candy and is just as good.</p><p>No more ridiculous than your statements.</p><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:43 PM</span></p>

[Balerius]

<div></div><p>Get real.  The guilds who farmed Vyemm's for relic drops didn't do it so that they could be fashion queens and parade around in matching armor.</p><p>These guilds made a hard-nosed calculation that the best use of their players' time at this stage of the expansion was to farm Vyemm's and equip their members with fabled gear.  They did this in the expectation that their players would be better able to take on the more challenging content based on this fable relic gear.  Don't pretend that these guilds were doing anything else.</p><p>As for me, I wouldn't call what these guilds an "exploit".  That's the wrong term.  However, what they did was clearly unintended by SoE.  The proof is in the fact that they emptied the zone.  Taking advantage of something unintended by SoE is not an exploit.</p><p>What should SoE do now?  /shrug.  Probably change the stuff that has dropped so far to treasured and reduce the stats accordingly.  Then change the recipes and make future relic drops only drop off of mobs that spawn after any named's spawn point.  Or perhaps, make multiple pieces drop off the named themselves in addition to outright fabled loot.  Or perhaps make the lockout timer 6 days after zone-in.</p>

[Keldo]

<div></div>I think you underestimate the vanity of most raiders.  The guild I run isn't even a hardcore raid guild and I am all for sets of armor.Give me treasured, legendary, fabled, I don't care - if the stats are T7 compareable and it matches and I dont look like a fruitcake, I'd have a lot of happy raiders.  Making the gems drop all over the world, giving it awesome stats and then making it drop in one singlular zone, rarely with a 6 day lockout is the dumbest thing I can think of.Just as a note I am not arguing for it to be like it was before - that was obviously not intended.  But the idea of armor sets being in the game is very welcome, and if it is eliminated because SOE cannot figure out how to balance it I would be very disappointed, especially after a precious few actually completed sets and for the rest it will be an unrealistic goal.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Keldoth on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:14 PM</span></p>

[Feltrak]

<div>I believe that it is intended to be able to farm this zone. I don't see why people are complaining. It's probably because you didn't know you could farm it, so you made a run at the zone, didn't do too well, and now you're locked out.</div><div> </div><div>Get real folks. Relic armor is meant to be farmed. Making an entire run through vyemm's lab and getting 5-6 pieces? Why bother putting the gems ALL OVER in the game, dropping from all types of mobs? They did it right in Velious, the gems dropped rare enough and held a market value. Right now there's so many gems floating around. A single XP group can easily get 6-7 gems an hour. A raiding guild would get a maximum of 10 relic pieces of armor a week. And that's a maximum.</div><div> </div><div>IMO the contesteds and other raid zones should nearly require you to be equipped in 3/4 relic gear. What? Progression!?</div><div> </div><div>My hope is that they allow this to happen the way they intended: a source of farmable relic. Perhaps they should add in mobs that repop, or perhaps a 20 hour lockout, or perhaps less chance of dropping. When DEVS take part in this behavior, I can't see how you can call it an exploit.</div>

[Scort]

<div></div>They could have just as easily spent their time farming mobs/zones that drop legendary and fabled that have stats just as nice, that drops like candy.I think ALL fabled dropped items should be molds, not just one zone.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:28 PM</span></p>

[Noah]

<div>There is little grounds to have items changed/ removed/ or anything.   It was intended then changed after seeing the affect. </div><div> </div><div>In the past, players never had items changed, banned or whatever when SoE "missed something".   Examples:  OW (best one), Darathar, Antonica Zalak adds, Shak and Mak, using raid mobs for huge exp gain... the list could keep going.</div><div> </div><div>People still spent hours and days doing this.  You didnt just walk into the zone and Poof... 150 relic pieces were there for you to collect.  Time and effort was still put in.  Just like OW... Just like Darathar....  Just like Shak and Mak... </div><div> </div><div>For those that chose not to do it... oh well.  </div>

[Kazora]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>ow was fixed far before nearly as many people took advantage of it as has happened with vyemm's lab. shak and mak diversity of loot wasnt mindblowing and zalaks adds  was master spells and the exploit was fixed far more quickly. Nothing i can think of has happened on a par to compare with the relic trash drop loots  even given their respective tier/encounter, with respect to how well konwn the exploit is and how many people took advantage of it. Even silent city had only specific small number of fabled loots, mostly with subpar stats (until they got buffed after being moved to raid encounters).</p><p> </p><p>With the relic scenario you are talkjing about multiple guilds on every server farming a huge diversity of items to gear potentially any and every toon in their guilds,  in what is the near-best gear available in the expansion or in many cases the very best. The gear needs to be nerfed in stats substantially, similar to how the fabled crafting rares from marcus were never alowed into items and just vendorable. It doesnt have to be made horrible, but should be made legendary and on par with awakened scalelord legendary items, with effects like reduced spell timers etc removed and added to other items off harder/named encounters. That way all that "effort" put in isnt lost.</p><p>Message Edited by rozakk on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:27 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by rozakk on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:28 PM</span></p>

[Kriddle Kraddle]

<div></div>Noah its not that people chose not to do it. People went in and killed the named mobs and got a 6 day lockout because either 1 they didnt know about the no lockout or 2 because they wanted to do the zone the way SOE intended. So dont use this you chose not to do it crap cause you got it and dont want it removed. Im happy you guys got your leet armor and are all matching and looking pretty but its going to give everyone that did it an unfair advantage over everyone else.

[zjusti]

People knowingly and willing bypassed a lockout to obtain raid level gear.... if thats not an exploit what is?  Step up sony and do something for once.  You'd have to be the most ignorant person in the world to think that was intended.  I bet when you first did it you thought to yourself I can't believe this works /gasp because it wasn't suppose to. As to you having to put hours and hours into farming relic,  i'm sure people had to put hours and hours into duping their plat,  good excuse.<div></div>

[Pouncer74]

<div>its not like this zone had new rules for an instanced zone</div><div> </div><div>there are many many instances u can zone in and out of if you don't kill the named . . . this is nothing new and very far from exploiting.</div><div> </div><div>I think the real problem are:</div><div> </div><div>1) the unique nature that the relic armor off common mobs is better than the named drops.</div><div> </div><div>I say beef up the named drops! </div><div> </div><div>2) Since people have the motive to zone in kill a few mobs, zone out, repeat....make a shorter lock out...20 hours is fine for any mob and 6 days for a named kill</div><div> </div><div>3) BY GOD get the zone back up.  Its really the one non contested area that most raiding guilds can enjoy....its very annoying that its down.  Gettint this zone back up and running in some form needs to be a top priority.</div>

[Scort]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>zjustin2 wrote:<font color="#ff3300">People knowingly and willing bypassed a lockout</font> to obtain raid level gear.... if thats not an exploit what is?  Step up sony and do something for once.  You'd have to be the most ignorant person in the world to think that was intended.  I bet when you first did it you thought to yourself I can't believe this works /gasp because it wasn't suppose to. As to you having to put hours and hours into farming relic,  i'm sure people had to put hours and hours into duping their plat,  good excuse.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Total 100% lie. They didn't bypass anything. There was no lockout if you didn't kill named. That's not bypassing it.  That's how the dev team designed it. Get your facts right. Bypassing a lockout would be if it had a 6 days lockout just entering it and you found a bug that would let you in before 6 days was up. That's not the case here. SOE has a LOT of zones that give no max lockout time if you don't kill the named. They made it like that. SOE just didn't set a min lockout time, which they haven't on many zones. No one bypassed [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. If good gear is dropping on trash, then it's thier fault for not setting a min lockout timer. There was no exploiting or bypassing any lockout and to say so is just plain stupid.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:51 AM</span></p>

[Gornd]

SoE has only one type of consistency: inconsistency.  Based every other instance in the game it is impossible to determine exactly what SoE had intented for a lockout timer.  Since there is definite basis or model to follow from doing something that is not an exploit (zoning out) then doing something else that isnt an exploit (zoning in) is not an exploit. I'm on Velleks server, and my guild didnt level as fast.  I hope to catch up shortly, but changing things now would not make that possible. <div></div>

[zjusti]

HAHAHAH If they wanted people to farm this anytime why would they put it in an instanced zone,  why not put it in a place like ascent or something?  If you can answer me that i'll shut up.  If only one guild did this you all would be screaming exploit but since so many did it your defending your actions in hopes that you will keep your gear.<div></div>

[Eris]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote>Total 100% lie. They didn't bypass anything. There was no lockout if you didn't kill named. That's not bypassing it.  That's how the dev team designed it. Get your facts right. Bypassing a lockout would be if it had a 6 days lockout just entering it and you found a bug that would let you in before 6 days was up. That's not the case here. SOE has a LOT of zones that give no max lockout time if you don't kill the named. They made it like that. SOE just didn't set a min lockout time, which they haven't on many zones. No one bypassed [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. If good gear is dropping on trash, then it's thier fault for not setting a min lockout timer. There was no exploiting or bypassing any lockout and to say so is just plain stupid.</span></blockquote></div><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:51 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Sshow me one raiding guild that given an opportunity at named(s) in an instance zone wont go for that (those) named(s)... Unless of course there is some tweak that would make it more profitable not to kill said named(s)..... The nameds in Lab are a joke and can be easily killed by any half descent raiding guild so the fact remains that not killing any named was purposefully done so no to trigger lockout and thus kinda bypassing it. Sure thats not breaking the rule per se but talk about bending them as far as they could be.

[Zyxlin]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>This is totally SOE's fault and not the fault of the players. It's not the fault of the players for taking advantage (IF that's what they were doing) of this. It's the fault of SOE for not properly testing this stuff before releasing it. The fault rest squarely on SOE's shoulders.</p><hr></blockquote><p>So by that logic, if a woman gets sexually assaulted while intoxicated, it is her fault for getting assaulted and not the person doing the assaulting?  Since it's the woman's fault for being intoxicated, even when the person doing the assaulting KNEW what they were doing.</p><p>Also, for those that are saying that this is how they feel the zone was intended to be, then what do you suggest was the reason of depopping the entire zone worldwide suddenly with no notice?  I doubt they're redecorating.</p><p>Message Edited by Zyxlin on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:22 AM</span></p>

[Kizee]

<div></div><div></div><p>Typical SOE.</p><p>People rush to level cap to reap the rewards then they change all the rules for the average people making it 10X harder. :smileyindifferent:</p><p>Message Edited by Kizee on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:10 AM</span></p>

[NogustaD]

<div></div><div></div><p>Folks what are you talking about, to every hornorable person THIS WAS AN EXPLOIT,</p><p>1. The Zone has a Lockout timer thus is an Instance and if a single Fabled Drops the timer has to start</p><p>2. If you were ment to be able to farm the Armor this Zone wouldnt have a lockout timer at all and repop!</p><p>   Its obvious that you are ent to clean it every 6 day and not each day.</p><p> </p><p>High end guilds that do these things lose every respect they earned through the hard work they did, Any worldfirst from these Guilds now counts less to me since their wasnt a fair contest and equal chances to do them after they got Relic Armor through this Exploit. Their was no HORNOR at all in their Actions in LoLV.</p><p>Please think about that, their is absolutly no discussion about the points i made</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Nogusta Battleshaman the Contenter Lev 70</p><p>Hornorable Member of Feral Fires, Valor</p><p>Message Edited by NogustaD on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:18 AM</span></p>

[Aven Elonis]

<div></div><div></div><p>As was passed on me (second hand info at best) - some people were informed of the "problem" before it was generally known.</p><p>That is to say - someone(s) associated with SoE passed on to non-SoE player(s) about the bug at the beginning of this scenario.</p><p>While this is not an exploit per se, if it went down this way it stinks to high heaven.</p><p>It is one thing to fall over a bug and realize that an advantage can be gained by it, it is another thing to be given inside info about it.</p><p>I don't begrudge the people who got the armor, I hope to see some at some point.  If the "top end" raid guilds are all decked out in relic armor, good for them. Not sure what they will be doing in a month or two, based on what I've seen in KoS so far.</p><p>Message Edited by Aven Elonis on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:37 AM</span></p>

[Kyriel]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Aven Elonis wrote:<p>That is to say - someone(s) associated with SoE passed on to non-SoE player(s) about the bug at the beginning of this scenario.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Or maybe someone zoned in... zoned back out, and tried to zone back in, there was no lockout timer, brought the guild, noticed every other mob dropped relic armor... thought, Hey... theres no lockout timer! lets zone out and do it all over... but lets not kill named cuz thats for sure a lockout.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Zemfira on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:28 AM</span></p>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zemfira wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Aven Elonis wrote:<p>That is to say - someone(s) associated with SoE passed on to non-SoE player(s) about the bug at the beginning of this scenario.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Or maybe someone zoned in... zoned back out, and tried to zone back in, there was no lockout timer, brought the guild, noticed every other mob dropped relic armor... thought, Hey... theres no lockout timer! lets zone out and do it all over... but lets not kill named cuz thats for sure a lockout.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Zemfira on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:28 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Exactly.</p><p>SOE made the zone.</p><p>SOE populated the loot tables for the trash mobs.</p><p>SOE made the lockout timer work if you kill a named mob, and not work if you dont kill a named.</p><p>If SOE was not aware of this, then that is their stupidity and why would someone think this wasnt intended at that point?</p><p>There are tons of nice armor dropping off of trash mobs in this expansion that replace some old fabled.</p><p>Why would this zone be percieved as any different?</p>

[judged_one]

<p>A part of Velious that everyone loved was "farming molds".   People enjoyed raiding stuff nightly in hopes of getting some matching armor and gearing up for "the tuff stuff".   If guilds want to spend hours and hours gearing up, whats the issue with that?  ToV was a huge success....  and honestly, KoS/EQ2 needs something like that.   Perhaps Lab wasnt the best place for it but somewhere it is needed.  </p><p>The relic armor is not the "best of the best" items in KoS but it is matching, decent, and can feed 1000s of people.  About time there was a way to get a matching set of something imo.  I remember in EQ1 keeping my set from Fear, ToV, the Planes... all of it banked for years... why?  It was a set.  If this turns out to just drop in an instance zone with a 7 day lockout, that nostalgia will never be captured and once again people will be mismatched.</p><p>As far as "getting stuff taken away"...  talk about a CS nightmare not to mention the multiple times in the past where far more gross issues were never dealt with (not some Master 1 crap).  Personally, I think it was intentional but then after seeing what was happening - it was rethought and removed.  </p><p>I hope they put something similar back in.  Maybe a small lock out of a few hours for killing just trash.... Perhaps move the molds to a contested raid zone to farm... something that can fill in the gap of when guilds are fully locked out.</p>1.) The issue here isn't farming Noah, the issue here is they depopped the zone and so all the people that were out doing other thing such as epic quest are screwed.2.) Sure they are not the best amour in KoS, but they are a step up from T6 fables and t7 legendary.3.) Is it the fact that FoH is totally geared in relic fable that you don't want then to take it away? And you comment about matching amour is irrelevant,any raid tank would choose +50 mit over the ability to have matching color gear. So please take you pretence elsewhere.Like many previous posts, they shoulda.) Leave it exactly the way it is, and slightly nerf the relic amour to t6ish qualityb) Take all relic amour away and put a 6 days lock out on the zoneUnlike SC where people are equiped with 1-2 fable gears, we are talking about certain toon are equipped with full relic fables.<div></div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><p>*** Zones and Population ***- Entering the Laboratory of Lord Vyemm now triggers a 6-hour zone reusetimer. The reuse timer after killing a named encounter remains the same.</p><p> </p><p>Case Closed. Minor Farming is probably intended but not to the extent that happened.</p>

[Kyriel]

<div>yey now everybody can shush! hehe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[KBern]

<div></div>Thats more than fine.  So guilds can go in there once per day if they really want to now, just not 24 hours a day bobbing in and out re-setting the zone.

[CallMeToyMan]

<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr><div>Get real folks. Relic armor is meant to be farmed. Making an entire run through vyemm's lab and getting 5-6 pieces? Why bother putting the gems ALL OVER in the game, dropping from all types of mobs?</div><hr></blockquote></span></div><p>Agreed.  And  today's fix confirms it was meant to be farmable.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by CallMeToyMan on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:15 AM</span></p>

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>CallMeToyMan wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr><div>Get real folks. Relic armor is meant to be farmed. Making an entire run through vyemm's lab and getting 5-6 pieces? Why bother putting the gems ALL OVER in the game, dropping from all types of mobs?</div><hr></blockquote></span></div><p>Agreed.  And  today's fix confirms it was meant to be farmable.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by CallMeToyMan on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:15 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Actually it confirms there was meant to be a lockout that was never implemented untill today so people took advantage(exploited) of a mistake made by sony.

[BadLieutenant]

<div>What I want to know is did they nerf the drops on the trash mobs? I went in there Sunday with my guild for a few hours (btw the lag was the worst lag I have ever played through) and we got 1 drop of legendary gear. No relic drops. Looking at other guilds that farmed this they have complete sets for almost everybody in their guild, so I know the drop rates had to have been farily good, or at least that is my assumption.</div><div> </div><div>Can anybody verify this or not? I know sometimes SOE likes to make ninja nerfs. Setting a lockout timer AND nerfing drops rates would suck horribly. It would be weeks for me to get a whole set of gear, unlike the days it took some guilds.</div>

[Gimmiso]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BadLieutenant wrote:<div>Can anybody verify this or not? I know sometimes SOE likes to make ninja nerfs. Setting a lockout timer AND nerfing drops rates would suck horribly. It would be weeks for me to get a whole set of gear, unlike the days it took some guilds.</div><hr></blockquote>people say that it is all a matter of luck and no post was made claiming to have nerfed the drop rate.... I wouldn't be suprised if they did though. As far as you getting your full set and it taking days... welcome to the way the zone was meant to be played. People that got full sets in days took advantage of the original zone problems.

[LexxerCoV]

<div></div>Zone is still empty on Everfrost.

[Ratty31]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>LexxerCoV wrote:<div></div>Zone is still empty on Everfrost.<hr></blockquote>Yes but the lockout is fully functional so now everythings fixed and back to normal, unless your one of the people that didn't zone in out in out in out in out for a week straight.<p>Message Edited by Ratty31 on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:34 AM</span></p>

[Vellek]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BadLieutenant wrote:<div>What I want to know is did they nerf the drops on the trash mobs? I went in there Sunday with my guild for a few hours (btw the lag was the worst lag I have ever played through) and we got 1 drop of legendary gear. No relic drops. Looking at other guilds that farmed this they have complete sets for almost everybody in their guild, so I know the drop rates had to have been farily good, or at least that is my assumption.</div><div> </div><div>Can anybody verify this or not? I know sometimes SOE likes to make ninja nerfs. Setting a lockout timer AND nerfing drops rates would suck horribly. It would be weeks for me to get a whole set of gear, unlike the days it took some guilds.</div><hr></blockquote><p>It wasnt nerfed. I probably farmed this zone as much as anyone (guessing 70+ trips). This weekend we got 5 molds/patterns in 9 hours on Saturday and I believe three more on Sunday in a few hours before they took it down. Early on we had about the same drop rate as this past weekend.</p><p>Even after so many trips I personally only have one relic piece. Maybe we were just unlucky, but it is not like guilds were going in there one night for four hours and decking out their entire guild. It was more like they farmed the heck out of this place every day for over a week to get what they needed in order to stay ahead of the competition. Dont think that one trip in the zone clearing the trash = guaranteed relic. It is more like 1 relic drop per 2-3 trips, each trip taking about ~30 min.</p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>espmrred wrote:<div>While relic armor isn't the "end all" armor in KoS it's pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good and sadly, better than we've seen off Hurricanus or Harla Dar, etc<hr></div></blockquote>It isn't even <em>close</em> to being as good as the stuff from Hurricanus.

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>espmrred wrote:<div>While relic armor isn't the "end all" armor in KoS it's pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good and sadly, better than we've seen off Hurricanus or Harla Dar, etc<hr></div></blockquote>It isn't even <em>close</em> to being as good as the stuff from Hurricanus.<hr></blockquote>We got a crap shield and a mage hat neither had effects. So maybe Hurricanus has some good stuff but we sure didn't see it.

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ratty31 wrote:<div></div>We got a crap shield and a mage hat neither had effects. So maybe Hurricanus has some good stuff but we sure didn't see it.<hr></blockquote>I saw the mage hat and it was nice.  I've seen some other stuff and it has more combined stats, resists and higher mitigation than relic.  An effect isn't always the end all, be all eh.

[Ratty31]

<div></div><div>Flowing thought VIII or some resists I think most mages would go with flowing thought.</div>

[Gaige]

<div></div>I do believe the hat you guys have has +7 focus on it also, correct?

[pera]

<div></div>+Focus imo is almost useless to a mage unless they are soloing.   Even dots +focus seems to make no differance at all, which is what a mage would be taking eithe that or dd in groups/raids.The only person i think that it even helps at all is a cursader when they are tanking.  and even with their base focus at the cap and giving them a buff, the benifit is almost non-existant.<div></div><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:42 PM</span></p>

[zjusti]

Most mages would take the FT8 over focus7 any day,  but why are we even comparing the two?  Farm labs get a piece every hour,  do hurricanus and get 2 pieces every week or whatever the respawn is.  Risk vs reward FTWThis leet "fix" only gives the guilds that did sploit the zone a 3-4 week start on everyone who did not.  As for everyone who says the 6 hour lockout now means that was intended for people to farm it... again ignorance is amazing,  who is going to wait 12 hours for a relic now with the standard drop rates.  Its time to clear like it was intended.<div></div>

[Gaige]

<div></div><p>I would assume most decently equipped mages are approaching the regen cap anyway, especially with KoS items.</p><p>As for Hurricanus, I think it can drop 3 or more fabled at a time.</p><p>/shrug</p>

[CallMeToyMan]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ratty31 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>CallMeToyMan wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr><div>Get real folks. Relic armor is meant to be farmed. Making an entire run through vyemm's lab and getting 5-6 pieces? Why bother putting the gems ALL OVER in the game, dropping from all types of mobs?</div><hr></blockquote></span></div><p>Agreed.  And  today's fix confirms it was meant to be farmable.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by CallMeToyMan on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:15 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Actually it confirms there was meant to be a lockout that was never implemented untill today so people took advantage(exploited) of a mistake made by sony.<hr></blockquote>Sony has made so many dramatic changes to classes, spells, quests, res penality, drops, and changes of policy (e.g., no PvP ever), swinging the nerf bat left then right,  it is really difficult to know if that was the intent all along, or they are over reacting against the original intent, etc.  The gear remains farmable, just now it is daily or 2x a day for some guilds vs multiple times a day.  I really don't know that it was a mistake that they forgot the lock out timer, or if the mistake was they over powered the relic armor, or if the mistake was they set the drop rate too high, or if the mistake was that the gem rate drops are too high, etc.  So no, I don't think todays lockout confirms that was there intent all along.</span></div>

[Scort]

<div></div><div></div><p>Well, that answers that. It WAS intended to be farmed. SOE just didn't set a MINIMUM lockout like they should so, all you people whinning exploit can now shove that somewhere as you were totally and 100% wrong. It was not exploiting. Exploiting would be finding a way around the 6 hour/day lockout and getting in before it was up. Zoning in is not an exploit, zoning out was not an exploit and you could do both freely as allowed by SOE with thier timers.</p><p>There are a LOT of zones where you can zone out and back in as long as you don't kill the named. It was no different than here. How is anyone supposed to know what SOE's intentions are on these timers? SOme zones you zone in and back out, there is a timer. Some zones there are no timers. Heck, Lich zone in Antonica went for a LONG time with no minimum lockout and dev team members play in guilds that did this zone. I know, I saw them zone in many times. Eventually, months down the road, they did finally change it. So if something drops that's decent, we automatically suposed to know that SOE intended a 6 hour lockout or whatever? Get real, no one knows all of SOE's true intentions.</p><p>The ONLY thing that was wrong here was the minimum lockout time. People are whining because they didn't get to go in and get some and just jealous of the people that did. If it was an exploit, SOE would have called it such and banned people for exploiting, like they have done before. They would have called it exploiting like they did with people duping using the mail system and banned peopel like they did those people.</p><p>To call it an exploit is just stupidity. It's STILL farmable. You just have to wait 6 hours before going back in now.</p><p>The people ended up with fairly decent stuff but, so has all the people farming all the other named and zones in this xpak constantly and getting really kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] legendary that's dropping a LOT more often than relic. Relic just happens to be a set.</p><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:43 PM</span></p>

[zjusti]

<div></div><div></div>Raid gear, no lockout,  zoning in 50 times a day.  Your just plain stupid if you think that was their intent.  You can make all the excuses you want but thats the bottom line.  I guantee you if only 1 guild did this they would be suspended or banned,  the problem is they let half the raiding population do it before action was taken,  do you really think they are going to call it an exploit and take proper action against that many people?Name this "kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] legendary" that is dropping more often then relic...<div></div><p>Message Edited by zjustin2 on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:50 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by zjustin2 on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:52 AM</span></p>

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Well, that answers that. It WAS intended to be farmed. SOE just didn't set a MINIMUM lockout like they should so, all you people whinning exploit can now shove that somewhere as you were totally and 100% wrong. It was not exploiting. Exploiting would be finding a way around the 6 hour/day lockout and getting in before it was up. Zoning in is not an exploit, zoning out was not an exploit and you could do both freely as allowed by SOE with thier timers.</p><p>There are a LOT of zones where you can zone out and back in as long as you don't kill the named. It was no different than here. How is anyone supposed to know what SOE's intentions are on these timers? SOme zones you zone in and back out, there is a timer. Some zones there are no timers. Heck, Lich zone in Antonica went for a LONG time with no minimum lockout and dev team members play in guilds that did this zone. I know, I saw them zone in many times. Eventually, months down the road, they did finally change it. So if something drops that's decent, we automatically suposed to know that SOE intended a 6 hour lockout or whatever? Get real, no one knows all of SOE's true intentions.</p><p>The ONLY thing that was wrong here was the minimum lockout time. People are whining because they didn't get to go in and get some and just jealous of the people that did. If it was an exploit, SOE would have called it such and banned people for exploiting, like they have done before. They would have called it exploiting like they did with people duping using the mail system and banned peopel like they did those people.</p><p>To call it an exploit is just stupidity. It's STILL farmable. You just have to wait 6 hours before going back in now.</p><p>The people ended up with fairly decent stuff but, so has all the people farming all the other named and zones in this xpak constantly and getting really kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] legendary that's dropping a LOT more often than relic. Relic just happens to be a set.</p><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:43 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Vellek said they went in 70+ times so take out your calculator and add 6 hours to each farm and see what you come up with. It's not farmable, 2/3 times you go in you'll get nothing they basically said "do the entire zone" and adding the 6 hour lockout was so people wouldn't feel like they exploited it and so sony wouldn't feel like they screwed up.

[Scort]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>It may not have been their intent to be able to zone back in immediately. Maybe they didn't set a minimum lockout timer, not knowing, so thus it was their intent. Maybe there is a person that sets lockout timers that's different from the people doing the zones. The timer person may not have realized relic stuff dropped off regular mobs. You don't know what their intentions were to begin with and neither do we.</p><p>We DO know it is intended to be farmed though as they didn't set a 6 day lockout just for going in, only a 6 hour. So, it is STILL farmable, just not as quickly. We didn't know because there have been in the past and still are zones you can farm to this day, with no minimum lockout timer.</p><p>So, there was no exloiting. SOE simply did not set the minimum time that they now think they should have set it for.</p><p><span class="time_text">If you haven't seen the kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] legendary gear, then obviously you haven't been playing KoS, or still not high enough or good enough to get into some of these group zones.</span></p><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:01 PM</span></p>

[zjusti]

Its like trying to explain 2+2 to a brick wall<div></div>

[Scort]

<div></div>Yes it is

[zjusti]

If your talking about the stuff off the PoA dragons then thats pretty lame stuff compared to relic and its only plate.  Other then that its all broker fodder.  Maybe its leet and kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to you...<div></div>

[Scort]

<div></div><div></div>When you can get to these zones and get this gear, you will see it. There are many pieces better than end game t6 fabled stuff<p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:04 PM</span></p>

[zjusti]

Heh I like the examples of these mysterious items,  oh wait they don't exist.  I've been to all the zones,  I've killed almost all the KoS named, there a very few pieces better then t6 raid loot,  maybe better then yours but not mine.<div></div>

[Scort]

<div></div><div></div><div>My gear comes from Inner temple, Court, Gates, PPtR, Djinn Master.</div><div> </div><div>The Hooloh and dropped hat from vaults alone is better than anything from any of those zones for my class. That's just 2 items I have seen. You must not bbe doing much stuff then to miss all this gear dropping like crazy. I don't have time to sit here and list hundreds of pieces. Look for yourself.</div><p><span class="time_text">Don't believe me? Then ask any of the top level guilds on your server or people able to do this stuff and getting this stuff.</span></p><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:16 PM</span></p>

[zjusti]

Again that may be an upgrade for you but not for me... that vault hat blows for rogues. Maybe next time you should list more then one instead of just saying hundreds of them.Oh well i'm done with this thread for now,  If you think full fabled was the intent by zoning in and out of a zone with a lockout then more power to ya.  Did soe screw this up?  yes,  but to say they screwed up so its ok to use it is just the most reverse thinking i've ever seen in my life.  The players manipulated the system and did this 20+ hours a day knowing it was going to be changed soon(I wonder why that might happen) This by definition is an exploit.   You can go back a year and blame the anto instance you can say they have changed stuff in the game you assumed lockouts could be bypassed for raid loot now too, you can say whatever you want.   Maybe you will one day convince yourself this was intended if you keep saying its true.<div></div>

[Scort]

<div></div><div>You really have no clue dude. One day when you are capable of doing the zones and getting the gear, you will see for yourself. Just ask, I am sure people will link you the stuff.</div><div> </div><div>You may define it as an exploit but that doesn't make it one. Your morallity has no weight. It means zilch, except to you. SOE is the only voice that matters and they haven't said jack, except to change the minimum lockout, to reduce the noise from the whiners.</div><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:34 PM</span></p>

[CallMeToyMan]

Well anyway, the discussion is pointless since it's not the player's jobs to second guess Sony's content intent.  The gear is clearly meant to be farmed, but okay, now it's not farmable as often. It's Sony's job to monitor these things, ideally in Beta before they go live.  Now nearly three weeks later after the game has gone live they fixed this.  Really who cares?  The take weeks and months sometimes to fix bugs that affect high end players (e.g., prismatic 2.0 weapons that still doesn't proc off heals; raid mobs bugging out and reseting every 2 minutes; no loot or useless loot dropping in raid zones for weeks and months after DoF was released; all raid mobs hosed on more than one occassion and hosed for weeks on end.)  The same slow process that hurts the high end plaeyrs occassionally favors them.  I guess it balances out in the end.

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>CallMeToyMan wrote:Well anyway, the discussion is pointless since it's not the player's jobs to second guess Sony's content intent.  The gear is clearly meant to be farmed, but okay, now it's not farmable as often. It's Sony's job to monitor these things, ideally in Beta before they go live.  Now nearly three weeks later after the game has gone live they fixed this.  Really who cares?  The take weeks and months sometimes to fix bugs that affect high end players (e.g., prismatic 2.0 weapons <font color="#ff0000">effected all players</font> that still doesn't proc off heals; raid mobs bugging out and reseting every 2 minutes <font color="#ff0000">effected all players</font>; no loot or useless loot dropping in raid zones for weeks and months after DoF was released; <font color="#ff0000">effected all players</font> all raid mobs hosed on more than one occassion and hosed for weeks on end.)  The same slow process that hurts the high end plaeyrs occassionally favors them.  I guess it balances out in the end. </p><p><font color="#ff0000">Letting some people farm then excluding everyone else while leaving the items in the game is completely different than all these [Removed for Content] poor examples you gave</font>.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ratty31 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>CallMeToyMan wrote:Well anyway, the discussion is pointless since it's not the player's jobs to second guess Sony's content intent.  The gear is clearly meant to be farmed, but okay, now it's not farmable as often. It's Sony's job to monitor these things, ideally in Beta before they go live.  Now nearly three weeks later after the game has gone live they fixed this.  Really who cares?  The take weeks and months sometimes to fix bugs that affect high end players (e.g., prismatic 2.0 weapons <font color="#ff0000">effected all players</font> that still doesn't proc off heals; raid mobs bugging out and reseting every 2 minutes <font color="#ff0000">effected all players</font>; no loot or useless loot dropping in raid zones for weeks and months after DoF was released; <font color="#ff0000">effected all players</font> all raid mobs hosed on more than one occassion and hosed for weeks on end.)  The same slow process that hurts the high end plaeyrs occassionally favors them.  I guess it balances out in the end. </p><p><font color="#ff0000">Letting some people farm then excluding everyone else while leaving the items in the game is completely different than all these [Removed for Content] poor examples you gave</font>.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>Ok let me list some examples for you:</p><p>Prismatic 2.0 Broken Stats and craptastic graphics : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who finished it.</p><p>Poet's Palace: Return, Mobs dropping no chests and treasured loot : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who got inside.</p><p>Silent city, non-existent loot off ring events and massive respawn times : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who started doing it.</p><p>Djinn Master's Prism, Bugged beyond belief in an impossible encounter : Only effected the top raiding guilds there.</p><p>Barakah and Siyamak in majdul, 15000 damage AE's : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who attempted them.</p><p>Non Attackable Black Queen in Court of Al'afaz : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who went in their.</p><p>Ascent of the Awakened, Impossible to spawn gorenaire to progress : Only effecting 1st raiding guilds in their.</p><p> </p><p>So yes, it is give or take, you gain just as much as you lose by being on the cutting edge.</p>

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr><p></p><hr><hr></blockquote><p>Ok let me list some examples for you:</p><p>Prismatic 2.0 Broken Stats and craptastic graphics : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who finished it.</p><p>Poet's Palace: Return, Mobs dropping no chests and treasured loot : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who got inside.</p><p>Silent city, non-existent loot off ring events and massive respawn times : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who started doing it.</p><p>Djinn Master's Prism, Bugged beyond belief in an impossible encounter : Only effected the top raiding guilds there.</p><p>Barakah and Siyamak in majdul, 15000 damage AE's : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who attempted them.</p><p>Non Attackable Black Queen in Court of Al'afaz : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who went in their.</p><p>Ascent of the Awakened, Impossible to spawn gorenaire to progress : Only effecting 1st raiding guilds in their.</p><p> </p><p>So yes, it is give or take, you gain just as much as you lose by being on the cutting edge.</p><hr></blockquote>The examples you gave in noway reflect what happened with Lab. Noone came out on the loseing end in your examples.

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ratty31 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr><p></p><hr><hr></blockquote><p>Ok let me list some examples for you:</p><p>Prismatic 2.0 Broken Stats and craptastic graphics : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who finished it.</p><p>Poet's Palace: Return, Mobs dropping no chests and treasured loot : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who got inside.</p><p>Silent city, non-existent loot off ring events and massive respawn times : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who started doing it.</p><p>Djinn Master's Prism, Bugged beyond belief in an impossible encounter : Only effected the top raiding guilds there.</p><p>Barakah and Siyamak in majdul, 15000 damage AE's : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who attempted them.</p><p>Non Attackable Black Queen in Court of Al'afaz : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who went in their.</p><p>Ascent of the Awakened, Impossible to spawn gorenaire to progress : Only effecting 1st raiding guilds in their.</p><p> </p><p>So yes, it is give or take, you gain just as much as you lose by being on the cutting edge.</p><hr></blockquote>The examples you gave in noway reflect what happened with Lab. Noone came out on the loseing end in your examples.<hr></blockquote><p>I'd say having your guild dissolve and goto WoW over game breaking [Removed for Content] bugs qualifies as losing out.</p><p>We did lose out because we had to suffer through it.</p>

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote>I'd say having your guild dissolve and goto WoW over game breaking [Removed for Content] bugs qualifies as losing out.</blockquote><p>        We did lose out because we had to suffer through it.</p><hr></blockquote>The only [Removed for Content] bug to date is this Relic [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Not sure what your referring to.

[ChaosUndivided]

<div>You don't need relic gear to succesfully raid t7.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>You don't need relic gear to succesfully raid t7.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>No [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]

[zjusti]

I'm still waiting for Scortch to give some more names of legendary items that drop like candy that is as good as relic.  Either you can own up and say your full of BS or you can keep on saying i'm a noob and haven't done the stuff.  I'm guessing your going to pick option number two since you can't think of anymore.  Either way I'll get a good laugh out of you.Kinda odd these mysterious items are never on the brokers and no other person in the game has heard of them /gasp<div></div>

[Scort]

<div></div>I am still waiting for you to get the capability to go into these zones and get the loot. I'm not doing the work for you. I and many others have already been there and done that and looted a lot of kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] legendary stuff.When you are high enough and capable enough, you will see it. Like I said, just ask some good groups or guilds that have been in these zones. It's all over.Just because you are not capable enough of getting it, doesn't mean it don't exist.Obviously you don't get to see much stuff. I have brokered several items that have dropped so many times that everyone in the guild that can use, has it.The laugh is on you, I go to these places and see this stuff. Just because you refuse to acknowledge it, doesn't mean it's not there.I could show you the biggest baddest end game item and you would say that's crap.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:23 PM</span></p>

[CallMeToyMan]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ratty31 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr><p></p><hr><hr></blockquote><p>Ok let me list some examples for you:</p><p>Prismatic 2.0 Broken Stats and craptastic graphics : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who finished it.</p><p>Poet's Palace: Return, Mobs dropping no chests and treasured loot : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who got inside.</p><p>Silent city, non-existent loot off ring events and massive respawn times : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who started doing it.</p><p>Djinn Master's Prism, Bugged beyond belief in an impossible encounter : Only effected the top raiding guilds there.</p><p>Barakah and Siyamak in majdul, 15000 damage AE's : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who attempted them.</p><p>Non Attackable Black Queen in Court of Al'afaz : Only effected the 1st raiding guilds who went in their.</p><p>Ascent of the Awakened, Impossible to spawn gorenaire to progress : Only effecting 1st raiding guilds in their.</p><p> </p><p>So yes, it is give or take, you gain just as much as you lose by being on the cutting edge.</p><hr></blockquote>The examples you gave in noway reflect what happened with Lab. Noone came out on the loseing end in your examples.<hr></blockquote>I don't think you can really appreciate how much time high end guilds have wasted on bugs, broken end content, broken end game items.  All because Sony is slower then dirt at addressing these things because it is high end content.  If a bunch of players leveled up fast and farmed this zone for a few weeks because Sony was slow to fix that, seems like justice to me at best, at worst I don't care.</span></div>

[Godzmodi]

It's just funny how you assume so much Scortch<div></div>

[Ratty31]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scortch wrote:<div></div>I am still waiting for you to get the capability to go into these zones and get the loot. I'm not doing the work for you.<hr></blockquote>What zones? We killed Hurricanus and got worse loot than Relic. Harla Dar dropped worse loot than Relic. What [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing zone are you talking about?

[Scort]

<div></div>No more than the assumptions of some others here.Ever single named I have ever seen has good and bad loot.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:35 PM</span></p>

[Zyxlin]

<div></div><p>I thought it was funny how Scortch thought the 2+2 comment was made about someone else, when in fact it was made about him and he agreed.  Definately made me chuckle a bit.</p><p>Anyway, maybe exploit is too harsh a word, but definately what those guilds did knew something was wrong and turned a blind eye in order to benefit.  They knew if their accounts would be jeopardized all they would have to say is "But I thought this was how it was intended."  It's no use trying to convince people that what they did was wrong, because they'll never admit it.  You can take either side of the argument and probably give enough good reasoning that either side could win.  It's like in court when there's not enough evidence to prove someone's guilty, even though it's pretty obvious they are.  The defendant is going to cling to what they can in order to avoid trouble.  Personally, I think if this zone was meant to be farmable, it wouldn't have been made as an instance but rather as contested, just like Silent City.  You could farm that place, anything dropped legendary chests and you could repeatedly do the ring events.  Instanced zone is synonymous with lockout in this game.</p>

[Scort]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Obviously my agreement was too much for you to see that I was speaking about the person making the comment.<div></div><p>I knew exactly who you were directing it at, more than i can say for you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Right over the top....</p><p>The zone is still farmable. They didn't change that.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Relic isn't all that, like some are making it out to be.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:43 PM</span></p>

[Kazora]

<div></div>god htis has nothign to do with being on the "cutting edge". if anything a guild that isnt on the cutting edge benefited more. Less likely to be able to kill named = more loot. Make sense of that for me thanks.

[zjusti]

<div></div>I see you took the "I'm a noob way" hahaha.  I've done these zones,  I've seen the loot.  I laugh at you for thinking its kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  Keep it coming I need something to laugh at during the slow days.  Obviously you think your leet and special,  I think your pathetic for needing to farm relic to raid.  You can call me a noob but the bottom line is you can't name any more legendary items that are kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] because almost all the legendary isn't even worth putting on the broker.  Just keep coming back with that noob thing,  maybe it will work next time.<div></div><p>Message Edited by zjustin2 on <span class="date_text">03-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:23 AM</span></p>

[Scort]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>LOL, whatever dude. You'll get there one day and learn to do your own work and not take the lazy way. I do feel for you though.</div><p>Message Edited by Scortch on <span class="date_text">03-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:31 PM</span></p>

[StrollingWolf]

<div></div><p>The problem with this zone has been addressed:</p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=274">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=274</a></p>