Fear tainted island = bot paradise

[Maweg]

<div>Went to the fear tainted island today to update my HQ and there were more bots than mobs on the island, so i tried to find out why and killed some of the "a summoned frightling", out of 10 kills i got 6 abraded stomach stones which sell to the merchant for around 16 gold.</div><div>Check the islands on every server this is your chance to get rid of a lot of bots.</div>

[Morrgan_Soerenson]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Mawegda wrote:<div>Went to the fear tainted island today to update my HQ and there were more bots than mobs on the island, so i tried to find out why and killed some of the "a summoned frightling", out of 10 kills i got 6 abraded stomach stones which sell to the merchant for around 16 gold.</div><div>Check the islands on every server this is your chance to get rid of a lot of bots.</div><hr></blockquote>just out of curiosity... how can you ascertain that a named PC is a bot and not a played toon?thanksOlafedited for spelling... doh</span></div><p>Message Edited by Morrgan_Soerenson on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:36 AM</span></p>

[Iglind]

Agreed, this is the #1 IGE farmer spot for now. I read SOE lowered the payout for some sort of 'eye stalks' and these stones are similar. I actually followed an OLD farm group just to see where the plat is (the farmers always find out...) and sure enough. There were two groups on the island, one was really vicious training mobs on other players to keep their spot to themselves. I reported with a truly angry petition, and if SOE dont stomp these creeps out of the game i might just leave myself. I made around 3 plat per hour there while i was alone, think i bothered to gather about 6 plat in total then the training and crap made me leave to do other more fun things. It isnt fun to kill heaps of little green level meanies even for a few plat per hour, but SOE better use this 'farm spot' to trace IGE plat and DO SOMETHING... <span>:smileymad:In my opinion they should not only wait a while and ban the farm groups that try their best to be there 24/7... they should also trace the plat trail onwards to the IGE mules, and the cheating plat buyers. Time to wake up SOE, this farm spot isnt just great for the farmers, it causes some serious economy inflation aswell. Way too much plat entering the economy if they leave things like this. I mean... i could easily make 30+ plat per day there. Crazy! I wont bother though, because it isnt entertaining.It gets on my nerves every time i see these clowns Working the game, to facilitate Cheaters with credit cards... <span>:smileysad:Oh well, given the SOE record i dont expect much to be done. Much talk from their side and way too little action. I even read somewhere it is supposedly a 'top priority' to disable the black market... mmm, sure. <span>:smileytongue:</span></span></span><div></div>

[Maweg]

<div></div>5 character always following one, casters all casting at the same time, trying to attack mobs i have engaged, bad equipment , stupid names that were generated and more stuff.

[CrazedMut]

<div></div><p>Ways to tell a group is bots:</p><ul><li>Exotic names e.g Xhwahd</li><li>Guildless</li><li>All same level</li><li>Wearing dropped treasured gear</li><li>Don't reply to tells</li><li>Autofollow</li><li>Camp in same place continually</li></ul><p>I'm betting if SOE used this criteria to wipe out bots when players filed petitions, 99% of those banned WOULD be bots, and 80-90% of bot population would be gone.</p>

[Amphibia]

<div></div><p>It's the same on our server...</p><p>But to be honest, it doesn't bother me so much. I really HATE it when they camp nameds, but that island loot is just brilliant - keep it that way please! We're never gonna get rid of those bots anyway, so let them just have that little island to farm. That way they're not really bothering anyone. Far better than having them perma-camping named mobs people need for quests etc, like they did with the Overseer in Clefts of Rujark a while ago.</p><p> </p><p>- M.</p>

[AbsentmindedMage]

The beholder eyestalks were selling for 15g 30s or so.  They were dropping very frequently. I knew this would be nerfed and it was.  They are now at 30 something silver a piece.The stomach stones do not seem to drop as frequently.<div></div>

[Iglind]

"The stomach stones do not seem to drop as frequently."Unless SOE changed the drop rate since yesterday, that just sounds like someone who doesnt want 50 other players along with a bot team or 6 competing for the sone drops... <span>:smileyhappy: but anyway, SOE needs to wise up. That goes especially for the CS people handling petitions. I think some CS people are bribed by IGE to go 'investigate' a cup of coffee when they get certain serious reports related to certain characters. <span>:smileytongue:</span></span><div></div>

[Iglind]

<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/stones.jpg">drop off easy solo Summoned Frightlings. I bet the IGE farm teams sold a few hundred of those, minimum! <span>:smileymad:</span><div></div>

[Soveroo]

Wow that's some pricey vendor loot, unfortunately given the past track record we'll probably see no bannings and everyone else getting the shaft by the devs changing the sellback values to 1s like they did to the Clefts loot to discourage the farming there.<div></div>

[AbsentmindedMage]

<span><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:"The stomach stones do not seem to drop as frequently."Unless SOE changed the drop rate since yesterday, that just sounds like someone who doesnt want 50 other players along with a bot team or 6 competing for the sone drops... <span>:smileyhappy: but anyway, SOE needs to wise up. That goes especially for the CS people handling petitions. I think some CS people are bribed by IGE to go 'investigate' a cup of coffee when they get certain serious reports related to certain characters. <span>:smileytongue:</span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>lol, well, you have to take frequency in comparison.  I was saying not as frequently as the beholder eyestalks.  There were sometimes I was getting two eyestalks per kill.  As far as the bot teams, they are all over the isle now.  This post will just draw more and more there.  Could be a good thing or bad thing depending on how fast this is fixed.  Last night for example, there was a group of farmers.  They were upset that i was on the isle so they dragged heroics onto me and died.  Of course the heroics killed me also. </span><div></div>

[Iglind]

I got two of those stones on a kill or 3 too, so they are common. No other area in the game drops this much coin per hour. Expect chaos on that island over the weekend if the value or drop rate isnt adjusted in todays update... <span>:smileysurprised:</span><div></div>

[CrazyPaladin2]

<div></div><p>While exploring Gazer Island I got agro and accidentally discovered the eyestalks.  I harvested some food nodes and when I gated back I had 3 on me and was shocked to see they sold for 15g each.</p><p>The next morning I decided to see if it was real or not.  I went back and sure enough they seemed to drop at an extremely high rate.  All I could think was this is gonna get nerfed.  I decided to try and make a little bit off it before that happened.  I spent 3hrs and ended up with around 120 of the eyestalks.  Sick!  Not paying attention to what time it was, I was about to gate back into town when the server went down.  I logged back in with a feeling that my greed would not be rewarded.  Sure enough, I went to the vendor and found them changed and selling for silver.</p><p>While I was picking up the heritage quest on fear island I came across the frightling and found a loot item that had a similar "treasure" description as the eyestalks used to have.  Later at a vendor, sure enough they were worth a good chunk of gold.  I went back later and killed a few, then just gave up deciding my time was better spent elsewhere, and on something a little less shady.  I honestly felt a little dirty.</p><p>The stomach's are obviously supposed to be akin to a common drop vendor trash of that lvl.  Yes, Fear Island is a bots paradise, or anyone else that wants to make some quick cash.  I'm sure SOE logs the amount of money that goes into the economy from vendor trash.  Even if this thread was not started this would be nerfed.</p><p>IF it has not already been nerfed, you can expect that it will be soon.  If not a hotfix, at the latest with Monday's patch.</p>

[AbsentmindedMage]

<span><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:I got two of those stones on a kill or 3 too, so they are common. No other area in the game drops this much coin per hour. Expect chaos on that island over the weekend if the value or drop rate isnt adjusted in todays update... <span>:smileysurprised:</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I went back to the island and you are right.  They do drop frequently.  My experience before was only in passing through to get the hq.  I stayed around this time.  <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>   And I did get a few drops where multiple stomach stones were looted at a time.However, at least on Lucan d'Lere there are two groups of farmers on the island.  They are clearly not regular characters.  They are unguilded, lvl 60 characters, couple of them look exactly alike with just different names.  They are very territorial.  Twice now a group has deliberately pulled heroic encounters from further in the zone to where i was at and died so that i would get the aggro and die.  So, caution should be to any player moving through this isle.</span><div></div>

[Twofeets]

Bott groups have not only taken over this isle, they've taken over most other good spots as well.<p><a href="http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3141815" target="_blank">http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3141815</a></p><p> </p><p><a href="http://www.gameguidesonline.com/guides/articles/ggoarticleoctober05_01.asp" target="_blank">http://www.gameguidesonline.com/guides/articles/ggoarticleoctober05_01.asp</a></p><p> </p><p><a href="http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/12/08/business/gaming.php" target="_blank">http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/12/08/business/gaming.php</a></p><p>MMRPGs are big money, especially in lower income parts of the world.  SOE makes no effort to address these issues, and consequently are starting to lose 'normal players'.  These 'botts' play the game as a job, and in many cases have a quota to make.  In order to make it, they frequently resort to training and greifing to insure they hold their camps.   In addition to this isle, they also monopolize several other spots.</p><p>One method Ive seen recently is they will have a charmer bring Gylton to the zone in Sanctum, he's pathing is buggy, and frequently he will hang around the zone entrance for extended periods of time, killing all who zone in.  The rest of the bott group then farms the named in the area, and proceeds to train all those who are in their way.  Once trained, if you revive in zone, Gylton kills you again (and again and again) untill you are forced to leave.  This allows the 'botts' complete access to the camps of their choosing. </p><p>The situation will continue to grow worse untill SOE addresses it.  As much as I loved this game, myself, my wife, and a close friend of ours cancelled our accouts after several such episodes after the past few days.</p><p></p><p> </p><div></div>

[Iglind]

"The situation will continue to grow worse untill SOE addresses it.  As much as I loved this game, myself, my wife, and a close friend of ours cancelled our accouts after several such episodes after the past few days."Actually, i was thinking the same! <span>:smileysad:</span> After SOE's non-action against the most vicious player-killing farmers the past two days. Would you like two more canceled accounts SOE? <span>:smileywink:Good links, well worth reading. Certain SOE staff, the ones that make decisions, might need to read them too and get to work before the 'bots' take over the game.</span><div></div>

[Twofeets]

My account is active thruogh the end of the billing cycle, guess I was still hoping in vain that to receive a response on this.  It has now been 22 hours since my petition, the same bott group is still going strong in the same location, still training anyone who sets up nearby.  Still no reponse from a CSR.When running a business, the number one expense is usually manpower.  Apparently SOE doesnt feel that CSR's are necessary in game, and only a handfull per server can satisfy the consumer.   This way they can save money (and increase profits).  While Im not huge fan of over policing a game world, a certain amount is required to keep the peace (just as in real life).  Apparently this is lost on the management of SOE.<sigh><div></div>

[Skydrop]

<div>Checked out the fear tainted isle last night, as soon as I stepped off the cloud it was OBVIOUS that there where two groups of bots farming there.</div><div> </div><div>First group three chars with the names Lahe, Exidia, and Ache, camping the cloud platform and mass pulling summoned frightlings. Same again on the other side of the island a group made up of chars named Kenneth, Peahee, Timothy, Patrick, Williammm and Oaghoogoag, there was also another running around called Frogprince, he seemed to be pulling for both groups, either that or he was trying to train the other group.</div><div> </div><div>They matched CrazedMutha's criteria EXACTLY. Exotic names, ALL guildless, all about the same level, wearing armor that looked like it'd come from a charity shop (in comparison to any self respecting adventurer), didn't reply to a tell I sent, camped in the same place, as for auto follow I wasn't too sure of that cause they wern't moving around all that much.</div><div> </div><div>However, they did not train me, maybe because I was only there for about 15 minutes and not really doing much but watching.</div>

[markdevox]

<div>Why do SOE allow it to continue?  If its obvious to us why's it not obvious to them?</div>

[Soveroo]

Because for every one of our $15 accounts complaining there's 6 of their $15 accounts making SOE money and not complaining. <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div>

[markdevox]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Soveroo wrote:Because for every one of our $15 accounts complaining there's 6 of their $15 accounts making SOE money and not complaining. <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Naah it ain't that.  By that logic there's 6 times more botters than there are real players :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>Makes you wonder though what the relationship between SOE and IGE is.  GMs don't seem the least bit interested in trying to stop botting.</p>

[Iglind]

Being myself a succesful business owner, i can share this 'idea' and even if it might appear a bit like a conspiracy theory, it makes perfect business sense. I wouldnt be surprised if some 'clever' boss running EQ2 figured it out...SOE realises they cant (easily) completely remove all IGE farming. So they let them stay profitable, and only remove solo/group farmers and tradeskill bot crews after X amounts of complaints etc from Players. X is a rather high amount of complaints, obviously more than 10 petitions are required for each of the groups. Anyway, if the IGE farmers turn a $$$ profit on their accounts before they get banned, they will remain in business. Replacing banned accounts with new accounts = more profit, so they buy new accounts. SOE makes more money on that aswell ofcourse. It really is that simple. The farming companies that work for IGE, wouldnt continue if they made no profit, or a too small profit.I'm not claiming to know that is how things really work... <span>:smileytongue:</span> but it makes Business sense. Business is what this is all about in the end for SOE staff, at least the SOE people who make major decisions... <span>:smileywink:If SOE decided to kick the plat farmers quicker, IGE and their (mostly) Chinese/Indonesian etc farming companies would make less profit. So what happens then, thinking in Business terms here... well, they have to up the $ per Plat price to the <u>Cheaters</u> who buy the coinage. No biggie. Cheaters and unaware will still buy coin, just not as much, and so the Business keeps going anyway. Just a few less employed underpaid farmers.Oh and by the way... some clever programming (a good coder working a week or less) and then 1 (yes ONE!) person who works only with this issue, would hurt IGE and power-leveling services really badly. I know that much, i could deal with this myself very efficiently. But SOE wont bother, because there is the mutual understanding above, that they can both make money off the black market business. All they have to do to achieve that, is to leave things the way they are.But then again... i am seriously about to cancel my two accounts and find another game. The latest run-in i had with the plat farmers, and the ignorant CS person who answered my petition after 1.5 DAYS just made playing the game less fun. For me its not all about the farmers ofcourse, but that was sort of the final insult i took from SOE staff. Think they should seriously consider having one or two dedicated game players on each server, with characters entitled 'Enforcer of Law' who actually has <u>tools and authority to suspend suspected plat farmers</u> for later investigation and banning by paid SOE staff. Sort of a priority phone line, where the SOE staff handling suspended accounts can be sure 99% of the accounts delivered will be related to farming for $$$. I'll be first in line waiting to clean up Befallen, just as i helped clean up Faydark before the merge.If nothing is done i am 99% sure i wont be around come summer and sunshine.See you all in St Tropez, on the beach far away from all computers... <span>:smileyhappy:</span><span></span></span><div></div>

[electricninjasex]

To do nothing about the botters until a certain number of people complain is a stance of weakness and cowardice and will inevitably be met with an aggravated and ultimately diminished player community. If you keep a death grip on the revenues coming in from the botters like they're last revenue you got, then eventually the perception will be the reality, and then this game can fade into whatever decrepit state SWG is in.Yes we are angry and justly so.<div></div>

[KBern]

<div></div><p>I hate to say it but coming here and posting this will do nothing but make SOE hurt us all.</p><p>SOE does not give a crap about farmers.  I honestly believe that.</p><p>There are way too many obvious cases and way too many cases of blatant griefing (ala training) to clear their areas and SOE doing nothing.</p><p>They need a specific group of people looking for petitions for the same patterns and responding to them immediately.  Have some list like the guy above posted where if a certain number of details are reported, they go look RIGHT AWAY.</p><p>Until SOE takes a true stance against this, it will never end and we just have to live with it.</p><p>What SOE will do with this thread is simply NERF the sell back of those items and many others.</p><p>They love to fix leaky roofs by by blowing up the clouds.</p>

[Eisenfau]

I ran into bots last night on fear tainted isle. I spent about 20 minutes poking and proding them to see if I could get any sort of response.Again the profile here seems to be single randomish name no guild usually trade skill lvl 1.I've also seen a smart type of bot Gaprh for example on Lucan d'Lere. These bots are capable of grouping with real groups. I'm usually the only member that notices whats going on. The bot will follow the MT and perform is duty. Usually nuking or healing targeted to the MT. These bots are unguilded never speak and often jump around like a bunny following the MT. They go LFG and accept invite and start following members of the group. They often fall and die but will accept a rez. The bot will continue playing even once all of its equipment has fallen off due to wear.After grouping with Gaprh in PoF I looked him up on the broker and he had 12 vanadium clusters for sale (among other things).I had a repeat of this experience happen last night in TT with different player fitting the same profile.In each case i've reported the play and tried to petition. So far I've received nothing but the generic "We Care We Really Do" BS. Meanwhile these bots are dominating the economy.I'm a professional programmer. I have the skills and knowledge to create AI controlled bots, etc. I don't do this sort of crap because I think its wrong, not because I don't think I could get away with it.I also can think of MANY ways this type of behavior could be detected and corrected through software on SOE's side.If anyone at SOE cares I'd be happy for work with them to write software that would detected 98+ percent of these bots! I think its time that SOE hires developers dedicated to providing their customers with a quality gaming experience.If this continues I'm afraid I'll have to call it quits.Eisenfaust 60 BerserkerLucan d'Lere

[Stryyfe]

<div>Seen a few people Prox aggro some mobs and aimlessly wonder off ... passing the botters ...causing all the botters to die.</div><div> </div><div>A very good laugh, and nothing more illegal than the botters themselves.</div><div> </div><div>If the players want to stop it, we can <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and it's hilarious at the same time.</div>

[Fennir]

I am very bad at navigating the fear tainted isle, and keep aggroing the stupid fear knights.  Luckily a group with names I can't pronounce keeps taking the agro from me so I don't die.<div></div>

[FluffyGoat]

3 bot teams on the bazaar. 2 of the teams seem to be legitamate like someone 3 boxing. But theres one group that has 4 guys that just SIT there and cast spells at the exact same time.I really don't understand sony, if they were to hire just 2 people dedictated to bot investigations we could eliminate a huge amount.

[Xibi]

<div></div><div>Are the 4 guys on Bazaar named Themummy, Freemanx, Hellishdevil, and Lilcartlin (or something... can't remember the last name)</div><div> </div><div>They used to run around 24 hours a day on vultak scavenging isle monopolizing all the rocks and all the Car'rion spawns then they disappeared a couple days ago but are always still in the zone (i assume at this spot).  They are always the last 4 if you do /who in tenebrous tangle.  And they're always running around together autofollowing each other.  Not to mention they are always linking strange items in /ooc with no text (i'm guessing because they probably don't know english)</div><div> </div><div>I'm assuming they are chinese farmers.  Because obviously either a bot is running them or they have an army controlling them so while someone sleeps another person plays.  No one can stay awake 24 hours a day 7 days a week playing.</div><div> </div><div>Also they have had a ton of stone rares (moonstone / acrylia) up, which is ruining the selling economy there.  thanx guys!   and thanx SoE for allowing botters or people illegally playing like that (its only legal for 1 person to play per account) to ruin the economy even more than it already is there.  Not to mention they are probably selling for dirt cheap on some illegal website so those of us that sell on SE can't sell anything anymore (those of you who try to sell know what I'm talking about)</div>

[Faidheanta]

<div>one of our botter groups on Befallen are actually in a guild of thier own ("wolfs" of norrah) it is annoying - think i was trying to solo a writ and there they were 4 bot groups and a couple of plat farmers fighting to steal the mobs from under each other.</div><div> </div><div>Ban them! (oh and drop the resale value of those stones for gods sake)</div>

[KBern]

<div></div><p>Yeah the ones on Guk get into a guild.</p><p>Have like 5 people only and all fitting the above descriptions.</p><p>The funny thing is some got so much crap in SS they actually got some ettiquette at times and stopped node hopping....but the other group training in PoF was always there.</p>

[FluffyGoat]

Yes some of the teams names are "Themummy, Freemanx, Hellishdevil, and Lilcartlin" However they aren't bots, each one is controlled by someone.

[Xibi]

<div>How is it that they are playing 24 hours a day?   I wake up in the middle of the night sometimes, and log on to check something and there they are.  All times of the night and all day.   Must be some sort of everquest 2 sweatshop or something...   I mean how do you find 4 people to sit in 1 farming spot 24 hours a day?  LOL    I get a headache and have to stop after a couple hours of it.</div>

[Chog]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xibitt wrote:<div>How is it that they are playing 24 hours a day?   I wake up in the middle of the night sometimes, and log on to check something and there they are.  All times of the night and all day.   Must be some sort of everquest 2 sweatshop or something...   I mean how do you find 4 people to sit in 1 farming spot 24 hours a day?  LOL    I get a headache and have to stop after a couple hours of it.</div><hr></blockquote>It is called shift work.  Play for 8-12 hours a day then go home when you are relieved.

[galadizz]

i think it is all fixed more bots and sells for 4g.did they fix iT?<div></div>

[Sute]

<div></div><p>if i can run around and INSTATLY notice a set of players who are obviously "bots" "plat farmers" or whatever else you wish to name them....why the hell cant SOE with the amount of data they collect on these people?</p><p>Come on SOE..i know you ban accounts for these acts, but not fast enough. Its plain to see if you just visit that isle whats going on.</p>

[noetici]

<div></div><p>I agree that bots are very irritating.</p><p>The problem I hear in Fear Tainted Island is NOT people botting, it's people being rude and intentionally harming other players. Trying to figure out if someone is /actually/ and /verifiably/ a bot is much more difficult than determining if someone is being rude or not. Whether they are botters or not is pretty irrelevant. There are awful "botters" in Clefts still, on Crushbone, anyway. I've been trying to do a Blades quest for weeks and been unable because I'm not willing to try to steal name kills from them.</p><p>Also, just 'cause someone doesn't talk much, doesn't mean they're a bot. Maybe they don't speak English very well, and are just trying to make friends across the language barrier. I say that because I've met people in game that don't speak English very well, but are very nice people and are certainly /not/ botters. I often fight naked, too, if need be. Better than making the whole group wait for me (as a Fury, anyway... most groups can live without a brigand).</p><p>Shavaun, 57 FuryBalance, 54 BrigandLegends of Crushbone</p>

[Sheybe]

<div>Do you all realize that there are thousands of accounts and characters per server and proof that a particular group or person is indeed a bot is a difficult thing to to prove.</div><div> </div><div>You also may want to take into consideration that many of these toons that you are accusing of being bots may well be two boxed and there is nothing wrong with two boxing. Before you get your undies in a bunch let me explain what I mean by two boxing, using two computers (or more) to control two characters (or more) by having both keyboards close to you and using in game macros.</div><div> </div><div>This would mean that one (or more) toon would be on auto follow and not respond to tells.</div><div> </div><div>If you don't think that this is possible I can assure you that it is. I have watched my husband run three toons at the same time using three computers and I have seen pictures of computer rooms set up with multiple computers to allow for multi-boxing of toons.</div><div> </div><div>I do agree that Sony should ban accounts that use bots.</div><div> </div><div>However I also realize that the tracking down of bots and proving that they are bots is a large job for a limited staff. And quite frankly for the most part the accusations of bots that I have seen on the board come accross as the paranoid pouting of a players who are not as efficient as other players.</div><div> </div><div>Stamping your foot and demanding that SOE go and ban the accounts of the players you believe to be botters accomplishes nothing. Angry petitions telling Sony the way that you think things ought to be run won't accomplish much either.</div><div> </div><div>Try sending detailed petition, giving the names, locations and actions of the players and why you believe them to be bots. Then move on with your lives, because all this stress and drama really can't be very good for your health.</div>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sutexi wrote:<div></div><p>if i can run around and INSTATLY notice a set of players who are obviously "bots" "plat farmers" or whatever else you wish to name them....why the hell cant SOE with the amount of data they collect on these people?</p><hr></blockquote><p>Because SOE requires proof. They <strong>can not</strong> just take the word of another, or even a bunch of other, players.</p><p>My question is this. You say you can spot a group that is being run by bot INSTANTLY. Can you tell the difference between a group being botted and a group being two-boxed just as INSTANTLY? If so please tell us what the defining differences are.</p><p>By the way, "plat farming" may be frowned on by players, to my knowledge SOE doesn't have an opinion on it one way or the other. Selling plat for monetary gain outside of the Exchange servers IS against policy gathering plat, however,  is not.</p>

[Iglind]

"Because SOE requires proof."They dont really need proof. <span>:smileysurprised:</span> But ofcourse it is wise to have proof. And the 'needing proof' is anyhow a good excuse if they dont want to remove paying subscribers, even if the accounts are plat farmers. Its easier to just answer 'we will investigate' and go have another donut, then come back to handle a simple naming violation instead.And they could get proof, easily. Around one week of coding time, and one person who investigates IGE/other company plat farming as a priority before any other CS issues. Personally, i play two characters at once, i know how that works. I also know that i play a LOT of hours, most days. I am probably as hardcore as many people in the raid guilds, except i craft a lot, adventure on my own, and harvest a ton aswell. But one thing i can never do is play the game, with two characters (it does demand 100% brain focus to 'dual-box' or 'multi-box') for the continuous hours the farm groups do it. Because they do it as a Job, and paying 2-6 accounts even when played by one dirt cheap Worker, means they have to farm near 24/7 to make a profit.So one first and VERY EASY thing SOE could do, but have NOT done. Is to take the average played time, and i mean Active time. Check what accounts have more than 16-20 Active Hours Daily, for the past week. Active means: moving a character, typing anything, logging in/out, fighting, well anything that requires a person at the computer, or a bot. Activity can just be logged every hour, that can be as little data demand as 3 bytes per character per day. One harddrive will cover the entire game!And let me explain what a Bot really is to the unknowing. It is a piece of software that handles things automaticly. That term is indeed used for lots of things it doesnt mean. If i had a bot made for my second account, it would likely check my main adventure character for low health and heal when needed. Same goes for wizard bot software, it would just start nuking when the main character is engaged in combat. That is what bot software does, a bot can never be a person, or a group. It is a piece of software automating things. Most groups Working the game will use bot software for efficiency reasons. There are IRC bots etc etc.. enough about that.What SOE can also EASILY do to nail plat farming for $$$ is... figure out the accounts that Earn lots of plat weekly, and then just Sends it away. Some plat farmers do buy good items, mainly for the tank. But their main purpose is just to gather plat, and pass it onwards to their 'boss' or directly to IGE mules for online sales. So the obvious common thing they All have is just that. Make lots of money, hand it over. That is one thing the plat farmers will always be doing. They cant hide that. They can try to launder their plat, but it really doesnt matter how they pass the coin forward if combined with certain other simple criteria. It will take fine-tuning, the farmers arent stupid, but it can definitely be traced. Again comes the 'common sense' of the investigator to not bother established guild merchants etc...Combining that kind of simple database analyze, with the played Active hours, and some Player petitions, and common sense by the investigator when looking up fishy accounts... well those are just the Simple things i bother to try and type up here. Those criterias would easily throw many plat farmers out the game  And the 'common sense' part would obviously make sure to not ban a guild bank or merchant.<span></span>Oh, there are harvesters working the game too. <span>:smileytongue:</span> Same pattern for them. Same patterns for any possible crafting botters working the game too. See? Its all about  finding the simplest common behaviour among them all, and listening to Players who care.I really dont feel like helping SOE lately though. I know Devs and Mods and others read the forums. If you want me to have an employee of mine type up a proper report on ways to stomp IGE farming, send me a PM... <span>I dont work for free though, personally i am likely in the league of Smedley or any other big cheese at SOE. My success does come from having a clever brain. :smileywink:On another note...Oblivion is out March 20 it is a great single player game. No plat farming there! <span>:smileyhappy:</span>Vanguard is out when? Supposed to have interesting and complex crafting... <span>:smileyhappy:</span>EQ2? I dont know anymore... <span>i still play, but not sure how much longer. :smileysad:<span></span></span></span><div></div>

[Twofeets]

<div></div><p>Hey Shavaun!  You play nakid?  Do you have a web cam? (Sorry, couldnt resist };&gt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><span>Iglindor, I believe it was Gamespot or some such that listed Vanguards shipping date (to them) as July.  I believe the special version (whatever they're calling it) is like July 3, and the normal version comes out July 11.</span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff">Sorry to go off topic, but already spoken my mind on the OPs topic :smileywink: simply not worth it to me to continue anymore.</font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff"></font></span> </p><p><span></span> </p><p> </p>

[electricninjasex]

<span><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:Combining that kind of simple database analyze, with the played Active hours, and some Player petitions, and common sense by the investigator when looking up fishy accounts... well those are just the Simple things i bother to try and type up here. Those criterias would easily throw many plat farmers out the game  And the 'common sense' part would obviously make sure to not ban a guild bank or merchant.<span></span><hr></blockquote></span>Bingo.  It really is that easy.  Lack of will is the only thing making it hard.

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:"Because SOE requires proof."They dont really need proof. <span>:smileysurprised:</span> But ofcourse it is wise to have proof. And the 'needing proof' is anyhow a good excuse if they dont want to remove paying subscribers, even if the accounts are plat farmers. Its easier to just answer 'we will investigate' and go have another donut, then come back to handle a simple naming violation instead.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Your kidding right?</p><p>I really hope youre kidding, because otherwise I am really concerned about your ability to function in the real world.</p><p>"They really don't need proof. But of course it is wise to have proof."</p><p>I am glad that you are not running our justice system, because it the corruption that would result would be rampant. We don't require proof that you murdered your wife, but it would be nice. Someone reported that you were doing some suspicious activity last night, so it obviously must have been you.</p><p>Did it ever occur to you that the CS Reps are not required to tell you anything more then "we'll investigate"? Cause they sure as heck are not going to send you tell full of gratitude for your astute and clever deductions about your fellow players and inform you that they will of course immediatly be banning the players account on your word.</p><p>Your method of detecting bots would involve a lot of innocent people being banned and allowing a lot of bots to slip through the cracks.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Combining that kind of simple database analyze, with the played Active hours, and some Player petitions, and common sense by the investigator when looking up fishy accounts... well those are just the Simple things i bother to try and type up here. Those criterias would easily throw many plat farmers out the game  And the 'common sense' part would obviously make sure to not ban a guild bank or merchant.<span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>So you are unwilling to rely on the common sense of Sony and their methods of investigation unless of course they are following your data base method, then you trust them to guess whether it's a bot cleverly disguised as a a guild bank or merchant, or in fact a legitmate guild bank or merchant.</p><p> </p><p></p><hr>Iglindor wrote:<span>On another note...Oblivion is out March 20 it is a great single player game. No plat farming there! <span>:smileyhappy:</span>Vanguard is out when? Supposed to have interesting and complex crafting... <span>:smileyhappy:</span>EQ2? I dont know anymore... <span>i still play, but not sure how much longer. :smileysad:<span></span></span></span><div></div><hr><p>I'm sure that there will be great wailing and gnashing of teeth if that comes to pass.</p>

[Eet]

<div></div><div>SOE has the resources to hunt bots. Six months ago on Innothule over a hundred botter accounts were banned. The botters just made new accounts and rolled new characters. No large-scale action has been taken since. Why not?</div><div> </div><div>Lack of will.</div><div> </div><div>Philosophical arguments about proof or justice or whatever are irrelevant. SOE could keep the bot problem in check, but they don't.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><font size="2">(No Vanguard release date has been confirmed other than sometime in 2006, don't listen to the fansites.)</font></div>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:So one first and VERY EASY thing SOE could do, but have NOT done. Is to take the average played time, and i mean Active time. Check what accounts have more than 16-20 Active Hours Daily, for the past week. Active means: moving a character, typing anything, logging in/out, fighting, well anything that requires a person at the computer, or a bot. Activity can just be logged every hour, that can be as little data demand as 3 bytes per character per day. One harddrive will cover the entire game!Oh, there are harvesters working the game too. <span>:smileytongue:</span> Same pattern for them. Same patterns for any possible crafting botters working the game too. See? Its all about  finding the simplest common behaviour among them all, and listening to Players who care.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Your formula is flawed, or just not well thought out. A bot can fight. A bot can cast. A bot can log in or out. So eliminating those sections of your criteria the only way to tell if someone is an "insidious botter" is by the amount of time they remain logged on. Hhhmmm hope nobody likes to sell from their room.</p><p> To quote you "I am probably as hardcore as many people in the raid guilds, except i craft a lot, adventure on my own, and harvest a ton aswell." You would be caught in your own criteria. I hope nobody petitions you, because as far as you are concerned proof of wrongdoing isn't required.</p><p> </p><p>Eetum,</p><div>"SOE has the resources to hunt bots. Six months ago on Innothule over a hundred botter accounts were banned. The botters just made new accounts and rolled new characters. No large-scale action has been taken since. Why not?"</div><div> </div><div>Once again i give you a very simple answer. Because SOE requires proof. The game has been out for approximately a year and a half. It took a long time to <em>prove </em>that the accounts which were banned 6 months ago were botters. Proof takes time.</div>

[Iglind]

Sheybear... obviously a troll with no clues. <span>:smileytongue:</span>This is a Game not the real World. Big difference. The EULA for this game is not an actual law and SOE can do whatever they want to game accounts at any time. Has nothing at all to do with courts and things like that. I know because if i owned this game (perhaps i should buy it? what is the price on the sinking ship? <span>:smileywink:</span> ) , i wouldnt give a crap about IGE farmers being upset when their accounts flew out the window. I would even deliberately wait until the IGE/etc farmers buy DoF and/or KoS and then ban them a week after! Maximum profit for SOE, maximum damage to the farming businesses. Any clever boss at SOE even think about that? Nooo... lets just allow them to keep working the game even if they train and kill players that get too close. *boggle*I have seen first hand how CS staff handle farming and bot issues so far. And i actually have screenshots of all my petitions, scary huh... i have records of their inefficiency. I made a bunch of farmers dissapear myself by hitting my head on the brick wall of CS investigations. Not worth my time anymore, that much is for sure. The day i saw really OLD bot groups entering KoS i knew this was a lost Quest against the black market coinage. Well, unless they all dissapear this week or the next. But by then i might just have gotten another interest than this game.Oh well... this wasnt troll food really, but i bet some hungry trolls will jump all over it anyway. <span>:smileytongue:Off to watch TV instead of playing this game, for now anyway.<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/bots1.jpg">That is an old group that used to hunt spiders in Feerrott 24/7... they are gone now. And yes they really were online hunting spiders 24/7 for over a month! They were on the now merged Faydark server. Anyone care to guess how long i had to hassle with different CS people to get these farmers out of the game? Sheybear? Perhaps if SOE had just looked at this groups past 7 days of Activity (=22+ hours per day!), they would have been gone without me even taking up CS time. Because that simple database query can be automated weekly, to make a list of over-active accounts. Enough said, i know what can be done. But it isnt done, and that sucks. Even Smedley has publicly stated that they would be more vigilant against farming after the launch of Station Exchange... <span>Not happening.</span></span><div></div>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:Sheybear... obviously a troll with no clues. <span>:smileytongue:</span>This is a Game not the real World. Big difference. The EULA for this game is not an actual law and SOE can do whatever they want to game accounts at any time. Has nothing at all to do with courts and things like that. <span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Iglindor, well you certianly put me in place. I'm a Troll with no clues. Thank you for pegging me so spot on. After seeing the quality of points that you make on the boards I'm quite shocked that Sony has not brought you onto their staff so that you can go after all those nasty botters your self. Why with your astute observations and your clever business skills you'd have them wiped out in a week.</p><p> </p><p>I realize that this is a game and not the real world, however there are real people playing it. And while Sony is allowed to do what they like, it's bad business practice to just ban accounts solely on the word of a few busy bodies.</p>

[Iglind]

"Your formula is flawed, or just not well thought out. A bot can fight. A bot can cast. A bot can log in or out. So eliminating those sections of your criteria the only way to tell if someone is an "insidious botter" is by the amount of time they remain logged on."Wrong wrong wrong...Any Action taken within any hour of the day sets a flag, saying there was activicy on that account that hour. So it doesnt matter What caused the activity,  human A or B or C of a 24 hour sweatshop shift, or bot software. The bit gets set and logged. And selling online is not Active. You just leave the character online, no activity i sell online often while i dont actually play. Dont go assuming people on the forums are stupid thanks. And as stated i could put together a solid plan, both employee tasks and what software/routines would stomp this problem way out of this game. If i can, i am sure someone at SOE could too. But it isnt happening.And i would not be caught as over-active. Nobody who at least sleeps an average of 8 hours per Day would not be caughty by that criteria. In fact, anyone who sleeps normally, plays the game all day long for a week, but decides to have dinner away <span>:smileysurprised:</span> from the computer... maybe have a bath <span>:smileysurprised:</span> or shower once... and go outside for fresh air at least an hour one day... wouldnt get past 16+ hours of average <u>daily</u> game Activity. <span>:smileytongue:Oh this is fun, lets keep arguing maybe someone from SOE reads into this topic and start forming an anti-IGE plan...<span></span></span><div></div>

[Eet]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Meekerme wrote:<div></div><p>Eetum,</p><div>"SOE has the resources to hunt bots. Six months ago on Innothule over a hundred botter accounts were banned. The botters just made new accounts and rolled new characters. No large-scale action has been taken since. Why not?"</div><div> </div><div>Once again i give you a very simple answer. Because SOE requires proof. The game has been out for approximately a year and a half. It took a long time to <em>prove </em>that the accounts which were banned 6 months ago were botters. Proof takes time.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Are you familiar with the way SOE investigates botters or are you just speculating?</p><p>The 'proof' stuff is BS. The wave of bans on Innothule 6 months ago resulted from communication between the head SOE dev responsible for investigating botters and a certain player who dedicated most of his playtime to tracking the activity of suspected botters. The player provided the dev with a list of 100+ names, the dev followed up, bans took place. This was an excellent example of how the problem <em>could</em> and <em>should</em> be addressed: devs teamed up with the community to identify a problem then took concrete measures to address it.</p><p>Far as I can tell, that kind of interaction is the exception, not the rule. All we get now are promises that the issue is "being looked into". Meanwhile the botters continue to run rampant. The case I just referred to was resolved in weeks, not months or years. Who is slacking? What's not being done?</p><p>If the botting problem is to be addressed with any effectiveness, SOE needs to articulate exactly what their stance is, then back it up with firm action.</p>

[Meeker]

<div>I find the different ways in which people define terms fascinating. To some, pulling a contested mob before they do is kill stealing. To others it is winning the contest. To some plat farming, botting and plat selling are the same thing. Others realize that plat farming is one of the most effective ways to make money in this game and is perfectly within the rules while botting and <em>selling </em>plat is a violation and should be dealt with.</div><div> </div><div>Iglindor wrote "Sheybear....obviously a troll with no clues". Obviously to some a troll is a person who disagrees using logic which they can't refute. To others a troll is a person who resorts to name-calling when faced with said logic.<blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:Any Action taken within any hour of the day sets a flag, saying there was activicy on that account that hour.......... And i would not be caught as over-active. Nobody who at least sleeps an average of 8 hours per Day would not be caughty by that criteria. In fact, anyone who sleeps normally, plays the game all day long for a week, but decides to have dinner away <span>:smileysurprised:</span> from the computer... maybe have a bath <span>:smileysurprised:</span> or shower once... and go outside for fresh air at least an hour one day... wouldnt get past 16+ hours of average <u>daily</u> game Activity. <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div><hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>Your logic, while still flawed, is refining. You're correct in stating that every move a character makes is logged. By your refined logic SOE would take that information, determine which characters are on, say, 16+ hours a day, assume they are botters or plat sellers and ban them? You want SOE to punish people for playing too much?</p><p>Iglindor wrote "And as stated i could put together a solid plan, both employee tasks and what software/routines would stomp this problem way out of this game. If i can, i am sure someone at SOE could too." I have no doubt you could come up with such a plan. You haven't yet. If you do i would be more than happy to hear it.</p><p>The only fair way to fight botters is, unfortunately the slow way. Read petitions, check the boards, hope you can catch them red-handed. Anything else and you run the very strong risk of banning players who just want to make some money for themselves or kill some mobs for XP. Better to let the guilty run free than punish the innocent.</p><p> </p></blockquote></div>

[Meeker]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Eetum wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Are you familiar with the way SOE investigates botters or are you just speculating?</blockquote><p>The 'proof' stuff is BS. The wave of bans on Innothule 6 months ago resulted from communication between the head SOE dev responsible for investigating botters and a certain player who dedicated most of his playtime to tracking the activity of suspected botters. The player provided the dev with a list of 100+ names, the dev followed up, bans took place. This was an excellent example of how the problem <em>could</em> and <em>should</em> be addressed: devs teamed up with the community to identify a problem then took concrete measures to address it.......</p><p>Far as I can tell, that kind of interaction is the exception, not the rule........</p><hr></blockquote><p>I'm familiar with the way the system commonly works. The case you are speaking of is singular and my point still stands. It absolutely should work the way you've described. If it did work that way it would still take a long time. The dev on your server still had to investigate because he still required <em>proof. </em>Devs, GMs and Guides are a small group of people dealing with many problems, small and large.  Sadly botting and plat selling are but two of many problems with which they have to deal.</p><p>Edited for spelling</p><p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:51 AM</span></p>

[Eet]

<div></div><div>Regardless. There is (or was) at least one dev responsible for dealing solely with this kind of illicit activity.</div><div> </div><div>When they wanted to do something about it, they began and concluded an investigation in weeks. Tangible results followed. It didn't take a long time.</div><div> </div><div>Is the seeming lack of action since that wave of bannings six (actually more than eight) months ago because the SOE investigators have been busy diligently and efficiently sorting evidence? I don't believe it.</div>

[Iglind]

Meekerme"By your refined logic SOE would take that information, determine which characters are on, say, 16+ hours a day, assume they are botters or plat sellers and ban them? You want SOE to punish people for playing too much?"No, both the 16+ hours of daily game Activity (a NEW type of log SOE should implement) and the tracing of who makes tons of coin and never really uses it, are NOT for automatic bans from the game. <u>Didnt anyone get the one person that has to work on the issue and sort things out?</u> And i have nowhere forgotten the 'read player petitions' part either. The 16+ hours average per 7 days is just a <u>great</u> way to automaticly get a list of suspicious accounts, at almost 0 cost. Computers can be programmed to deliver that information weekly."I have no doubt you could come up with such a plan. You haven't yet. If you do i would be more than happy to hear it." Well, if SOE decides to PM me on the forums, or use my private phone number wich is information available (i think) on both my accounts, i will get the project started. That wont happen though, because SOE prefers the ROI on expansion 3 over the black market issue any day... that's business. Not 100% clever business though. Besides the simplest and easiest to get started ideas are right here. Its not about a detailed list of exact things to implement but this is all about Logic and any clever person at SOE could pick this up from what is here already. The 'project' stuff i wont bother with here involves the fine tuning of other things that will help automate the weeding between Players and Workers.<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/bots2.jpg">People from the Faydark server (now Befallen) might remember this friendly group of plat farmers. Dont see them now <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> but they were quite busy in Clefts. And apparently they invited unsuspecting people to raid the big meanie in EL just to take all the Fabled loot. Anyone think Icekiss the leader of the pack was a liked character? Not much. I saw this group show up around the same time i was working on removing another group in Feerrott. This bunch of clowns got near level 50 in 2 weeks, no joke... that is how fast some people who Work the game for $$$ level up. Those groups dont log out much for sure. The 16+ hour log would find them before they are in any position to start farming big amounts of coinage. Once they settle wherever they are headed to farm 24/7, someone could and should click the Ban button. This might take about 5 minutes of CS time, total. Low cost to SOE + several sold farmer accounts = Profit. That is after a proper Activity log is coded along with a few other required things.It isnt so hard to make a good plan that will fight IGE farmers very cost efficiently on the 'paid staff end' and also relying on player assistance. They have the Guide program, and as i shared earlier... a Police program would not be a bad idea at all. Ofcourse any Police abusing their privilieges should be banned from the game, and mistakes in police work should mean replacement. And the Police program should not give any Ban authority to a player, that really is for paid staff to decide. Just explaining that so nobody claims it being a bad idea to fight crime by enlisting a small dedicated police force... <span>:smileytongue: The police should have other special and very useful tools available though. It shouldnt be that hard to code a special client side tool with a few functions i wont bother sharing here.</span><div></div>

[Iglind]

And now... just to make this Topic end up in so many pages SOE staff cant avoid it.Its time for me to re-open my petition about getting trained by plat farmers. Sorry CS people you are not doing your jobs well enough. This group of 3 leaves the game, or I leave the game. Their 3 accounts against my 2 accounts, 3 plat farmer accounts against 2 dedicated gamer accounts.SOE, I give you the rest of this month to decide. Period.<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/befallenbots1.jpg">Closed? I dont think so... <span>:smileymad:Lets start... the Surprise I Didnt Ask For. <span>:smileysurprised:</span><img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/befallenbots2.jpg">Moudeboub is naked, i had no idea why he dropped his armor at this time. Me and Meemi were fightling those pesky Frightlings, killing as many as we could to get some of the pricey stones. In total i bothered to get about 30 or something. There was tons of plat waiting there, but it was boring. And then this IGE plat farmer decice we were taking too much of his income... ok, we were not prepared to get blue heroic adds, Meemi died bravely. We tried to handle the add, but the surprise made it to confusing. Normally a blue heroic is no problem for Meemi and Iglindor, we hunt yellow heroics for experience... <span>:smileyhappy:</span><img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/befallenbots3.jpg">There they are, the 3 plat farmers. And poor Meemi.<a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=370557201">Moudeboub</a>300.000+ kills, online near 24/7 as far as i have ever seen in my 'friends' list.<a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=370559201">Ahiogao</a>300.000+ kills, always with Moudeboub. Ofcourse.<a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=370561201">Aheshoup</a>300.000+ kills, always with Moudeboub. Ofcourse.<a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player_srankings_detailed.vm?serverId=201&action=CharacterAgg.getByRankSwide&rank=npcKillsRankServer&type=MostNPCKills">Just looking HERE</a> will give anyone a hint as far as the IGE farning on Befallen goes. Ofcourse, the farmers shouldnt even get past 100.000 kills. 300.000 means they have made tons of plat already, tons.There he is again... Moudeboub the friendly plat farmer.<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/befallenbots4.jpg">Oh no, he gets naked cover your eyes!! <span>:smileytongue:</span>This time we figure out what he is about to try... he is trying to kill us.I think he wanted those pricey stones all to himself. Oh well.<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/befallenbots5.jpg">Okey one heroic isnt a problem. But the naked jerk goes to bring us another heroic, and a few of the mean little plants too. It ended up too much too fast, and we escaped. But this is what this Moudeboub character was doing. Not just once, several times to me while i was there. And...<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/befallenbots6.jpg">you guessed it. After i petitioned and waited in stealth, warning others about this training dangerous plat farming group, it kept happening to others. I know Karae petitioned aswell about being trained. It really made me angry, these lowlife plat farmers who have NO place in this game messing with players? This cant go on. I waited and waited for a GM... i am actually used to getting prompt response when i petition. Not this time. I waited several hours, but finally had to get to bed. Next day i found the usual response about investigating and taking proper action. Well that group is still in the game, they left the island after the stones were bugfixed. But i know where they are... and so this story continues. I will not let you off the hook on this issue SOE... you better believe it, i will post absolute proof that this group is out there still, farming 24/7. I will do that because i dont feel like playing the game while these player-killers are in the same game i am.<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/befallenbots7.jpg">Stay tuned. <span>:smileywink:</span></span><div></div>

[anaugi]

I have to agree with the fact that SOE is totally dropping the ball on this issue.  In the previous expansion the most horendous spot for this was on the Goblin Plateau.  There was a bot group that 24 hours a day was up there, several run ins, they would train you if you got a named, they would pull as many as possible in your area hoping you'd let off an ae and gain agro, and simply monopolize the area.I personally petitioned them 6 times, with 3 form letter mail responses, and 3 interactions with GMs.  It was obvious what this group was doing... one leader, 4 on follow, I even pointed it out to a GM when the leader ran a corner and the 4 bots got stuck on a wall.. all of them.. for about 2 minutes.  No action taken.  I started speaking to other players who I saw were being effected by this bot-group.  They too petitioned, No action taken.  this went on literally for weeks... with at least 10 different people petitioning the situation... yet the bot group remained.The only minor victory in the whole situation was when the servers merged, and lo-and-behold, ANOTHER bot group from the merging server appeared, and went straight to the same spot.. so now you had 2 bot-groups pulling mobs out from each other.  While this further monopolized the area so that no one else could even think of trying to fight there, it was amusing in a minor sense to see these 2 bot groups competing for the same mobs.. (now you know how the rest of the server feels).This spot was easily the most lucrative spot in DoF... and it was obvious that it was being abused... and it was painfully obvious by plat farmers who would take hostile actions against other players.  What is even more amazing is that SOE representitives could plainly see it, even stood and watched the groups in question.. yet did nothing.. NOTHING.  This is just an example.. but it happens in many areas that are even slightly lucrative in named mobs, drops, or potential to make a little money (this is a game where you need to make money).It really makes you lose faith in this company... you play a game for fun, you put in your dime to make it run,.. and you play by the "rules".  You expect that if you mess up, or you cheat there will be reprocussions.  But when you see SOE turning a blind eye to this blatant type of abuse of the game, you just hang your head and say what chance do I have in a situation like this.. they just don't care.Yes you can move on.. yes there's other parts of the game to play.. but you shouldn't have to be denied something that you want to do in this game simply because of cheaters/abusers/farmers.Stand up SOE and show us you care... because all you've done recently is show us it's too much effort to give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn],.. and it's now spilling over to yet another expansion.Anaugi - Oasis.<div></div>

[Fennir]

I have pictures too!<img src="http://www.improvmasta.org/eq2/feartainted04.jpg"><div></div>

[Iglind]

<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/friends.gif">Watch out farmers on my new home Befallen... that is all i have to add for this post. And they really better watch out. But they dont know it. <span>:smileytongue:</span>Moudeboub is Group B and just so happened to log out. I am thinking i might actually put my worthless two accounts up against all these farmer accounts. If they dont wise up and ban these clowns, i dont want to play their game anyway. <span>:smileytongue:</span> And yes, i will put in the resources needed on my end to monitor one or two Groups or Duos 24/7. Because i can do that. Imagine what SOE could do if they bothered! It would be 923750937465 times better if SOE used the very easy to code Activity log thing... in fact, that basic idea can be used on any of these MMO games with rampant farming for $$$. The activity log thing would also catch certain crafting botters who try to level up near 24/7, or those who use crafting bots while they sleep, ending up having near 24 hours activity per day anyway.Back to my (possibly) last big Quest here. When or if Moudeboub is finally gone, i am going after the next group, and the next... i have the rest of this month to force feed SOE, if i have to. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div>

[Iglind]

I am serious... this is a Live Cam Log from a certain corner of the EQ2 world. Saving images every 60 seconds for a future time-compressed 24 hour clip. Enjoy the action. I would not be one bit surprised, if this specific group A will hang out right on this spot for quite a while. So all i have to do, is wait... and not play the game. Or do you get my point SOE people? <span>:smileywink: If this group moves, i might not follow right now. For now group B is my main target because that one attacked my characters. This group just looked like easy prey. <span>:smileyhappy: Some farmers are more clever than others.</span><img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/eq2live.jpg">Updated every 10 seconds on the webserver, local pictures every minute. Logging activity 24/7 from now on.</span><div></div>

[electricninjasex]

<span><blockquote><hr><div><blockquote><p>Better to let the guilty run free than punish the innocent.</p></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote></span>Letting the guilty free IS punishing the innocent, otherwise we wouldn't have rules and nobody would be guilty.

[electricninjasex]

And good god... every one of these screenshots you all have posted looks almost identical to what I'm seeing on my own server, not only with situational antics but pharmer naming conventions and sorceror class usage patterns and on and on.  It would be hilarious if not so pervasive and aggravating.<div></div>

[Jai1]

<div></div><p>The violation comes in when they are using software which enables them to run multiple accounts as effectively as one.   I've only actually seen a handful of bot groups on Najena.  I personally think I could spot them out just by what everyone is saying.  Stupid names, lame gear, run around following each other, don't speak english and aren't usually in guilds.  I imagine Sony is seeing this as racial profiling or they could easily wipe out the botters just from that profile.  It's would actually be good business for them.  6 less botter today at 60 and 6 new accounts tommorow at lvl 1. Give it a few months until it obvious what kind of account is is.. rinse.. repeat.  Sure, they won't stop because its a profit rich enviroment.  But Sony could make them buy new accounts every three months until they gave up.  When it becomes more of a cost(new accounts/subs) that a profit(selling lewt and plat) then it will loose it's appeal. This is simply how you end it.  You stay on top of them until they buckle.  I do have to question Sony's stance from the accounts in this and other posts.</p><p>It seems hypocritical.  Here we have so called bots, causing disruptive play and nothing seems to be done about it.  I guarentee you that if I was to train mobs on people so eloquently described in the above post.  It wouldn't take me long until I had to face a punishment.  Warning possible ban.  What exactly do the bots tell the GMs when addressed? They don't speak english and that really should be a requirement for the game.  These are US servers being invaded by poor chinese workers.  I DO feel sorry for them because the game is their job and they make [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for money compared to what those who write the code and manage the farms make.</p><p>If someone is charming Gylton and leaving him at the entrance, the issue is severe than I thought and needs to be addressed.  If Sony see bots as a evil neccessity, either to generate plat in the economy, harvest rares and sell them cheap or allow people with less time than money to be able to purchase plat, then nothing will be done but I wish they would quit acting as though it was something that they see as an issue.  It's simply [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to think that a toon should be played 24/7 have [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for gear and actually be a real player.  300,000 kills comeon.  Aren't we rational thinkers?  Do we feel overwhelm or helpless by the issue.  Are thy hands tied?  Ask the players here, they feel exactly that are trying to go through the known lines Sony established. I feel for you guys.  I just must not hang out in bot zones.</p>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:Back to my (possibly) last big Quest here. When or if Moudeboub is finally gone, i am going after the next group, and the next... i have the rest of this month to force feed SOE, if i have to. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Well it's nice to see that you got yourself a hobby.

[Meeker]

<div><blockquote><hr>electricninjasex wrote:<span></span>Letting the guilty free IS punishing the innocent, otherwise we wouldn't have rules and nobody would be guilty.<hr></blockquote>Punishing anyone based on hearsay without thorough investigation and <em>proof </em>means that no one is innocent either.</div>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eetum wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Are you familiar with the way SOE investigates botters or are you just speculating?</blockquote><p>The 'proof' stuff is BS. The wave of bans on Innothule 6 months ago resulted from communication between the head SOE dev responsible for investigating botters and a certain player who dedicated most of his playtime to tracking the activity of suspected botters. The player provided the dev with a list of 100+ names, the dev followed up, bans took place. This was an excellent example of how the problem <em>could</em> and <em>should</em> be addressed: devs teamed up with the community to identify a problem then took concrete measures to address it.</p><p>Far as I can tell, that kind of interaction is the exception, not the rule. All we get now are promises that the issue is "being looked into". Meanwhile the botters continue to run rampant. The case I just referred to was resolved in weeks, not months or years. Who is slacking? What's not being done?</p><p>If the botting problem is to be addressed with any effectiveness, SOE needs to articulate exactly what their stance is, then back it up with firm action.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I think there is a fair bit of speculation on your side as well.</p><p>"All we get now are promises that the issue is 'being looked into'. What do you want? A heartfelt note of gratitude and the promise of immediate banning?</p><p>The accusations of botting, plat farming and other insidiuos acitivies fly around so swiftly and feircly Sony's best policy is to take all of them with a grain of salt.  We have no way of knowing how many petitions Sony gets every day from people who have rooted out yet another botter.</p><p>I do know, however, if Sony acted immediatly and without further proof, on every accusation of botting, then we wouldn't have much of a population left. Because everytime someone had another player get a mob before them, or harvest something before them, or did anything to annoy them then the player who was so deeply offended would just have to report the other player as a bot.</p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><p>By the way. Let's get our terminology correct.</p><p>Plat Farmer- A person or persons who gather resources or kill mobs for the sole purpose of gaining in game monetary reward.</p><p>Plat farming is well within SOE's user agreement.</p><p>Plat Seller- A person or persons who sell in game plat for real money.</p><p>Outside of the Station Exchange servers this is a violation and should be dealt with.</p><p>Chinese Gold/Plat Farmer- A deeply offensive, <em>racist </em>and very often inaccurate term.</p><p>Stop it.</p>

[Krystalea]

<div></div><p>I have to add, as I found it rather funny/interesting at the time.  My husband and I took ourselves up to the top of sandscrawlers cliffs in PoF.  Sure enough, a group of five botters. Oh well, plenty of mobs there.  We start our little killing spree, and what should happen?  Those five bots, run around grabbing all the mobs and try to start killing them.  My husband and I just look at each other, and sigh, going, all right what do you want to do, thinking that they are going to be jerks about it.  As I am about to turn around, I see that the "Main" tank has bit the dust, and boom, they all fall down. </p><p>It was very peaceful after that, they came back about an hour or so later,  but was really funny to watch them lost at their own game =)</p>

[Sevm]

<div></div><div></div><div>1.  You need to be concerned with yourself and not everyone else.  <font color="#ffff00">Play YOUR game and be happy</font>.<font color="#ffff00">  Don't let someone across the world make your angry, unhappy, and bitter when you have your funtime 10+ hours of gaming each week.</font></div><div> </div><div>2.  There is nothing wrong with one person playing 6 toons at once.  Get over this.  Go buy 5 more accounts if you are jealous because they make more money or because they found a good spot to farm platinum.  Thats part of the game.</div><div> </div><div>3. <font color="#ffff00"> Who really cares if they sell plat for real life money.  How does that effect you???  It doesn't.</font>  If someone wants to sell plat that they spent hours and hours working for and someone else wants to buy it - well .. that seems like capitalism.  Only problem is SOE wants in the deal to get some of that money and thats why its prohibited.  But why do you care?</div><div> </div><div>4.  Stop being a hater.  <font color="#ffff00">Play your game and dont get caught up in how everyone else is doing and how much plat they have.</font>  People who farm don't want to bother you - why don't you leave them alone and stop causing problems.  Again, you need to think about the real issues you have with the game (i.e. someone stole your node once, stole your mob once, have more plat than you. trained you because you harasses them, wouldnt respond to you tell " are you an fn botter?", you cant level as fast, you hate your class, you hate your own life).</div><div> </div><div>Again, all 10 of you can post all day your pretty pics and threatening word ([Removed for Content]) but I dont care, 99 percent of the gamers dont care, 75 percent of those who actually view these forums dont care, and SOE shouldnt care.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">Heck, If i was SOE It would be MUCH EASIER to ban all of you who complain and send /reports to GMs every minute.</font>  Next time it takes 2 hours to get a GM response its because they are going through all the worthless spam all of you are sending the GMs and my serious request is denied.  <font color="#ff9933">Get a life and move on or please... /slash wrists or cancel your account.  You really wont be missed by any of your "e-friends."</font></div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Sevman on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:35 PM</span></p>

[Iglind]

<div></div>Sevman probably likes to be able to buy plat off IGE at the nice price of $22.99 per 5 plat, or the bargain $299.99 for 75 plat. Thats right, because unlike when people play Monopoly with others, in this game you can buy money. It is against the rules! But the people who are supposed to make sure the rules in this game are followed really dont do it well. Not at all. Not when it comes to this rule. No matter what some boneheads try to claim this issue doesnt affect Me, You, or the player beside us, it does affect the game. It affects the game and gameplay both in small ways that really annoy people, and on a large scale.<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/bots3.jpg">Back on Faydark: Thamup with Fraigoonk+Padof+Bigedath+Gikeec on auto follow enjoyed hunting lizards in the Feerrott a lot. This 'group' played by one person, enjoyed lizard camp hunting so much they did it very close to 24/7, every day, for weeks. They are gone now. One reason i post these old pictures is... do we see a pattern anywhere?!? Naah. <span>:smileytongue:The next post is about something else i find Interesting... namely the time SOE seems to need to investigate these obvious groups. Stay tuned. <span>:smileywink:</span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Iglindor on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:01 AM</span></p>

[Iglind]

<div></div>Now we come to Group F actually! <span>:smileysurprised: I made them Group F because they did not mysteriously dissapear in the server merge with Befallen, they are still out there. This group doesnt play 24/7, but it is played by one person, it has All the common behaviour of other banned plat farming groups etc etc. So this time its an active group, with character names and all. To forum moderators i have a few things to say: This topic is here to stay until the end of this month. I refer to the forum rule of posting about these issues, but not without proof. While i do not currently post 'proof' as much as a Player can even get proof, this is Not a vaild cause to lock or remove this forum topic. It is part of the topic, namely the bunch of IGE/other company farming for $$$ that is going on, right now, every day, every hour.The only missing here is the leader these 4 usually auto-follow, Ghafiuna. I saw the names while passing Steppes doing a /who and saw these 5 level 25 characters with random generated names. That is common with these farm groups that Work the game. They were all <b>level 25</b>, all had absolutely crap gear. Some were almost naked. <b>This was December 9 last year</b>. I did not report them at once because i was busy with Uhawkia.<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/bots4-25.jpg">First report about this group was when i watched them Bot to level up at the Centaur Camp in Thundering Steppes. In their 20-30 levels they had this habit of logging off as soon as Meemi showed up. I bet the one person controlling the group wanted to be alone doing his/her job.<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/bots4-25b.jpg">Anyone else being there to watch, would have noticed the seemingly machine-like way in wich the 4 characters behind Ghafiuna behaved. Anyhow... the first petition about this group was sent to SOE <b>December 15 last year</b>. And they are apparently still 'investigating' the group. Well i know this group is likely to dissapear just like the many others i have sent petitions about that are now gone. But the fact is, it is getting close to 3 MONTHS since SOE were told about this group.So umm... yes, helping SOE enforce the 'no black market allowed' issue is like hitting a brick wall. It is not really worth wasting time on for most people. But i feel like i have completed a huuuuge looooong Heritage Quest when these groups get banned. I dont get any reward for it though. And IGE still sells plenty of coin. And there will never be any shortage on groups like these, unless SOE does something Serious about it.3 months... are we done 'investigating' Group F soon? <span>:smileytongue:The Ghafiuna group on Befallen is now level 62. First reported at level 25. I just wonder how much plat this group has gathered from the game, so that Cheaters can end up buying it off IGE or other sources... and how much more will SOE let them farm while they 'investigate'...? <span>:smileymad:edit:The first petition mentioning Ghafiuna has Ticket ID 4563002, in case some CS person mistakenly forgot to take it seriously.</span></span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Iglindor on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:32 AM</span></p>

[Iglind]

<div></div>I am not one bit surprised to find this brand new 'guild' of forest creep hunters. And you know what SOE? This guild is probably only going to be doing just that, hunt spiders and stuff in Feerrott 24/7, feel free to start investigating right away so that you might draw some conclusions by summer. <span>:smileymad:</span><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=4322201">Fire Seed</a>  6 members, 4 hunting forest creeps and other jungle creatures. I have no idea what the other 2 are members for. Maybe its the forest creep hunter fan club! <span>:smileytongue:</span>All characters created February 14, guild created and joined by all members Feb 25.I dont even need to visit the jungle to see, just by the names, the creation date, the last death etc etc... what this 'guild' really is up to. That is why SOE 'investigations' really are mindbogglingly long!Now... if the proper logs were coded, the member in this new 'guild' would have been listed as fishy a week ago minimum. Because of the speed at wich the hunters have leveld up. The rest is just up to the 'earn lots of plat and never really use it' database analyze, and common sense. Wich will make an alarm go off, or should, and it wont take 3 MONTHS.edit:This is now Group E on my list. I have conluded that there is NO way i will hassle through multiple CS petitions and 3 month SOE investigations for all these IGE farmers. Instead, i will keep snooping around and send 1 petition to the people at SOE. It will be the list with the Groups and Duos and their names. These are all on Befallen, i bet things look similar on other servers. I am up to around 30 accounts so far, that are very likely associated with the gathering of black market coin. <span>:smileymad:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Iglindor on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:05 AM</span></p>

[Iglind]

<a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=664201">The hum</a>What can i say... yet another 'guild' of wich half is now known on my list as Group G.Group G hangs out in the icey parts of the EQ2 world.One 'guild' member is really really busy harvesting tier 6.<div></div>

[Iglind]

<div></div>Lets hope i dont run out of letters before some action is taken against this plague. <span>:smileymad:<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/friends2.gif">Now SOE has the info needed really, i sent it. If it takes too long to 'investigate' count me out of the game. And i wont leave because of the Game itself, but precisely because of this MMO curse, and that Group B killed my character and got away with it so far. As i have repeatedly told CS staff too, warnings will not do anything at all to the farmers. It is their Jobs to do what they do and they wont stop until they cant do their Jobs in the game anymore. Simple as that.Wow, my lousy two game accounts up against around 40 <strike>people</strike> accounts Working the game. The odds are not looking good. <span>:smileysad:</span>But then again, i bet Oblivion and Vanguard can entertain me the rest of this year if SOE doesnt want to. <span>:smileywink:</span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Iglindor on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:26 AM</span></p>

[Luna2]

<div></div><p>Im real curious what the agenda of the people running here defending these teams is ? Saying the usual nonsense with innocent until proven guilty is not valid, everyone know who these people are and what they are ingame for. Im utterly sick and tired of petitioning these each and every day, not only do we get stupid server mergers, but as extra bonus we now have twice the ign teams !! the joy !!</p><p>Iwe been in eq since first week it went live, im totally serious when i say that if no action is taken soon, im out. Right now theres not a zone in eq2 without a platteam in it, either the CS start acting up or this game can [Removed for Content] off.</p><p>/luna</p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:<div></div><span>This group doesnt play 24/7, but it is played by one person, it has All the common behaviour of other banned plat farming groups etc etc. So this time its an active group, with character names and all. </span><hr></blockquote><p>So this group doesn't play 24/7. They don't fit you previously posted criteria.They just act in a way that you don't feel is proper. Once again i will point out this simple fact 2 boxing ( or 4 boxing or 6 boxing) is well within the rules. Plat farming, also perfectly within the rules.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:<div></div><span>. To forum moderators i have a few things to say: This topic is here to stay until the end of this month. I refer to the forum rule of posting about these issues, but not without proof. While i do not currently post 'proof' as much as a Player can even get proof, this is Not a vaild cause to lock or remove this forum topic. It is part of the topic, namely the bunch of IGE/other company farming for $$$ that is going on, right now, every day, every hour.</span><hr></blockquote><p>So you admit that you have no proof. You, in fact, admit that it is very difficult for a player to gain proof. And yet you keep posting these accusations.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:<div></div><p><span>First report about this group was when i watched them Bot to level up at the Centaur Camp in Thundering Steppes. In their 20-30 levels they had this habit of logging off as soon as Meemi showed up. I bet the one person controlling the group wanted to be alone doing his/her job.</span></p><hr><p>Or they just wanted to get out of your way so that a group who isn't 2 boxing would have a chance at the loot. It seems even polite behavior is an offence now.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:<div></div><span>... the first petition about this group was sent to SOE <b>December 15 last year</b>. And they are apparently still 'investigating' the group. Well i know this group is likely to dissapear just like the many others i have sent petitions about that are now gone. But the fact is, it is getting close to 3 MONTHS since SOE were told about this group.</span><hr></blockquote><p> </p></blockquote><p>Or perhaps their investigation is over, SOE may have discovered that this group is one or two people 2 boxing, which is well within the rules, and SOE has begun to ignore the well meaning but uninformed players still crying for their ban.</p><p>Just because you disapprove of other players playstyles doesn't mean that SOE must ban them solely on your accusation.If they did so they would have in game witch hunts. Since, by your own admission, this group hasn't broken the rules SOE is acting correctly in ignoring you.</p><p>Has anyone else ever read The Crucible?</p>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:<div></div>Sevman probably likes to be able to buy plat off IGE at the nice price of $22.99 per 5 plat, or the bargain $299.99 for 75 plat. Thats right, because unlike when people play Monopoly with others, in this game you can buy money. It is against the rules! But the people who are supposed to make sure the rules in this game are followed really dont do it well. Not at all. Not when it comes to this rule. No matter what some boneheads try to claim this issue doesnt affect Me, You, or the player beside us, it does affect the game. It affects the game and gameplay both in small ways that really annoy people, and on a large scale.<p></p><hr></blockquote><p>This is the logic that I love on these boards.</p><p>It's pretty standard from what I've seen.</p><p>If someone disagrees with your post there are some cheap, but commonly used responses. </p><p>-They are a troll. If you accuse them of being a troll then any an all responses they make will only further prove the original troll accusation. If they respond with anger or frustration then obviously they are a troll look how inflamed their arguements are now. If they try to respond with logic and explain how they were not trolling, then clearly they are backpedaling.</p><p>-They are a lover of whatever group is being attacked on the boards. In this case plat farmers. Since Sevman does not agree with you in your all out war to stomp out plat farming in a game that you intend to quit, he must be profiting from it some how.  Just because Sev does not see the problem with the selling of plat, that does not mean he profits from it. However this is not the only place that I have seen this behaviour. Elsewhere I have seen anyone who does not agree with the current round of SOE bashing accused of being Sony Suck Ups.</p><p>-If all else fails, declare the other poster as unworthy of your time and announce what other activity you will go do. (generally playing the game, watching TV, or something else that is not important, however it proves the point that the other poster is worth even less then the mindless activity you are about to engage in. )</p><p> </p><p>"Im real curious what the agenda of the people running here defending these teams is ? Saying the usual nonsense with innocent until proven guilty is not valid, everyone know who these people are and what they are ingame for. "</p><p>If you have been paying attention we are not defending the teams per sey, we are defending Sony's position of waiting for proof. I have no idea whether Inglindor has in fact come accross a group of insidious third party users, or if they are simply multi boxing.</p><p>Which brings me to my final point. Inglindor, correct me if I'm wrong here. But from what you have posted up to now, and from your screen shots it appears that you yourself are two boxing. Is this true?</p>

[Meemi]

<span>:smileymad:</span><p>Message Edited by Meemi on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:01 AM</span></p>

[Iglind]

Time will tell  Mekerme. I know i am not wrong, and i will leave it at that. <span>:smileywink: I also know Why i am not wrong, but all information i have or can get hold of, isnt something that should be posted on the forums. But i will be adding things here until March 28, you can count on that. <span>:smileytongue:</span></span><b>The point is: I am taking a stand against the black market and SOE's inability to keep it in check, and i do that right now.</b> Both my accounts that i have been playing for 14 months, nearly every day, will expire March 28 and i will leave the game unless this issue is dealt with, this month.<div></div>

[Eet]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sheybear wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eetum wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Are you familiar with the way SOE investigates botters or are you just speculating?</blockquote><p>The 'proof' stuff is BS. The wave of bans on Innothule 6 months ago resulted from communication between the head SOE dev responsible for investigating botters and a certain player who dedicated most of his playtime to tracking the activity of suspected botters. The player provided the dev with a list of 100+ names, the dev followed up, bans took place. This was an excellent example of how the problem <em>could</em> and <em>should</em> be addressed: devs teamed up with the community to identify a problem then took concrete measures to address it.</p><p>Far as I can tell, that kind of interaction is the exception, not the rule. All we get now are promises that the issue is "being looked into". Meanwhile the botters continue to run rampant. The case I just referred to was resolved in weeks, not months or years. Who is slacking? What's not being done?</p><p>If the botting problem is to be addressed with any effectiveness, SOE needs to articulate exactly what their stance is, then back it up with firm action.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I think there is a fair bit of speculation on your side as well.</p><p>"All we get now are promises that the issue is 'being looked into'. What do you want? A heartfelt note of gratitude and the promise of immediate banning?</p><p>The accusations of botting, plat farming and other insidiuos acitivies fly around so swiftly and feircly Sony's best policy is to take all of them with a grain of salt.  We have no way of knowing how many petitions Sony gets every day from people who have rooted out yet another botter.</p><p>I do know, however, if Sony acted immediatly and without further proof, on every accusation of botting, then we wouldn't have much of a population left. Because everytime someone had another player get a mob before them, or harvest something before them, or did anything to annoy them then the player who was so deeply offended would just have to report the other player as a bot.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I never asked for immediate banning. I never asked for SOE to act solely on accusations.</p><p>I said that in the past there has been collaboration between SOE and the community, and that tangible results followed. It's not a lot to ask for.</p>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eetum wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>I never asked for immediate banning. I never asked for SOE to act solely on accusations.</p><p>I said that in the past there has been collaboration between SOE and the community, and that tangible results followed. It's not a lot to ask for.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Fair enough, those are both valid points.</p><p>I cannot say one way or the other how much Sony is working with players who have in fact found true Bots.</p><p>And asking for tangible results may not be a lot to ask for, some, like Inglindor seem to demand immediate results. There have been multiple referals to Sony's usual response of we'll investigate, and this response is generally regarded as insufficiant.</p><p>Sony is not required to do more.</p><p>Anything further is pointless and only encourages the witch hunt mentality.</p>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Meemi wrote:<span>:smileymad:</span><p>Message Edited by Meemi on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:01 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>What does that prove?</p><p>Inglindor you have said you have two accounts, your screen shots do not show any name over Meemi, which to me implies that they are screen shots from the computer using that account.</p><p>Frankly I don't care if you two box, any more then I care if half the game is two boxing. I have in the past grouped with someone who was two boxing, I have watched my husband do it.</p><p>I only brought the question up because you seem to refuse to allow for the possibility that some of these supposed botters are in fact two boxing using in game macros. Sony does not have any problem with that. It is the third party programs that is a violation of the user agreement.</p><p>And all the frowny, smily, or pouty faces you throw up there won't change that fact.</p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Luna242 wrote:<div></div><p>Im real curious what the agenda of the people running here defending these teams is ? Saying the usual nonsense with innocent until proven guilty is not valid, everyone know who these people are and what they are ingame for. Im utterly sick and tired of petitioning these each and every day, not only do we get stupid server mergers, but as extra bonus we now have twice the ign teams !! the joy !!</p><p>Iwe been in eq since first week it went live, im totally serious when i say that if no action is taken soon, im out. Right now theres not a zone in eq2 without a platteam in it, either the CS start acting up or this game can [Removed for Content] off.</p><p>/luna</p><p></p><hr><p> </p><p>Luna,</p><p>Your question is valid. I can only speak for myself. My agenda is this: I hope to be the voice of reason. I have seen far too many examples, in this thread and others, of people being accused of things that are A: unprovable in this arena and/or B: <em>Not against the rules</em>.</p><p>Innocent until proven guilty is <strong>not </strong>nonsense. It's good business. By your logic ( term used loosely) the following sentence would be enough to get a person banned. Luna is a botter and a plat farmer. Is this sentence true? I have no idea and i don't really care. The fact is that no logical person could possibly think that sentence is enough. Thus proof is required.  To treat people in a fashion other than innocent until proven guilty invites SOE to ban any account that has been accused. Again i ask...has anyone else ever read The Crucible?</p><p>So, if SOE were to adopt the plan that you seem to be advocating i very much hope that if you were to be accused you would have enough money to buy a new account and enough time and desire to level another character. </p></blockquote>

[Iglind]

"And asking for tangible results may not be a lot to ask for, some, like Inglindor seem to demand immediate results."Immediate results? Yes, sure... i demand results, and in decent time. That should not be more than a week. And not more than a Month. And not 3 months. I have heard about bot groups being left in game for more than that too... it is just pathetic.All groups i have ever reported have been banned, sooner or later. Lots of characters i had listed as fishy in my friends list were banned, even if i didnt bother to petition about them. So far i really have not made one misjudgement about plat farming for $$$ and/or account sharing and/or using bot software. That is just how it is.Yes i often play two characters at the same time. And that is exactly why i know Quite sure that the groups and duos in my list, are not normal Players... <span>:smileytongue: You see there are certain things nobody would spend 20+ hours per day doing for Fun and Entertainment while playing more than one character. Wich is what Players play games for.But i am asking for immediate results! <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> I am sooo demanding here! <span>:smileysurprised:</span> Yay me! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> I ask that SOE get their act together and they have about two weeks. If two weeks is demanding immediate results, ok, whatever. After that at least I wont care. I wont miss the game if the department that does the investigations cant do their jobs.But they are on this issue now. Finally. Until i see something (=anything) happening regarding all these groups, I will just use this forum topic for some entertainment. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:All groups i have ever reported have been banned, sooner or later. Lots of characters i had listed as fishy in my friends list were banned, even if i didnt bother to petition about them. So far i really have not made one misjudgement about plat farming for $$$ and/or account sharing and/or using bot software. That is just how it is.<hr></blockquote><p>How do you know they were banned?</p><p>How do you know that they didn't just stop playing.</p><p>. . . oh wait, stupid me I forgot. Proof is nice but not necessary.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:"Yes i often play two characters at the same time. And that is exactly why i know Quite sure that the groups and duos in my list, are not normal Players... <span>:smileytongue: You see there are certain things nobody would spend 20+ hours per day doing for Fun and Entertainment while playing more than one character. Wich is what Players play games for.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>In theory yes. However while playing EQ1 my husband camped the JBoots camp for 72 hours. He had company for times of it but he did do it mostly by himself. I have participated in camping J Boots, and other long camps that mostly involve standing around for long periods of time, with periodic bouts of fighting. I know that my toon has stood still for hours at a time while I used EQ as a rather elaborate chat program. You have no way of knowing what they are really doing, or why they are doing it.</p><p>woops, I forgot again.</p><p>Proof is nice, but not necessary.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr><span>But i am asking for immediate results! <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> I am sooo demanding here! <span>:smileysurprised:</span> Yay me! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> I ask that SOE get their act together and they have about two weeks. If two weeks is demanding immediate results, ok, whatever. After that at least I wont care. I wont miss the game if the department that does the investigations cant do their jobs.</span><hr></blockquote><p>Well they could always just TELL you that they've taken care of it. Cause after all . . .</p><p> </p><p>proof is nice, but not necessary.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:<span>But they are on this issue now. Finally. Until i see something (=anything) happening regarding all these groups, I will just use this forum topic for some entertainment. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>as opposed to the rest of us :smileyvery-happy: that are on this forum with some agenda :smileymad: like, for example . . . stomping out insidious third party users and plat farmers! :smileywink:</p><p> </p></blockquote>

[Iglind]

"Well they could always just TELL you that they've taken care of it."I will know if things have been taken care of properly, and so will a lot of people on Befallen. Because if they stomp the plat farming groups, they wont be in the game anymore. After that there might (probably...) be a wave of new groups with random-generated names leveling up wearing crap items in the Steppes etc. But if so, i will be there to pick up their names. Because if SOE deals with the situation now, i will keep playing their game. Its not a bad game, it has bugs and some changes made are not exactly what i prefer. But if this wasnt a good game worth playing, i wouldnt have been here over a year. So i hope the investigations lead somewhere, within around 2 weeks. <span>:smileyhappy:</span>You are correct, SOE does not really need any evidence to ban accounts.<div></div>

[Sheybe]

<div>Eliminating the use of Third Party programs is something that Sony has been fighting and dealing with for 7 years now.</div><div>Every MMO has to deal with it.</div><div> </div><div>You have absolutly no way of knowing what Sony is or is not doing about the third party program users.</div><div> </div><div>Farming, for plat, gear or harvest resources is an acceptable way to play the game. Farming, does not violate the user agreement, nor does playing for hours on end, nor does using more then one account.</div><div> </div><div>If Sony has good reason to believe the players are sharing their account information, using a third party program, or selling plat on a non exchange server then they will have reason to take action. But again, Sony is not required to inform you, or any other players of the status of their investigation. Nor should they.</div><div> </div><div>It is entirely possible that you are in fact wrong about how the farmers are accomplishing their tasks. They could be a group of friends or a single person using legitmate in game methods, for legitimate purposes.</div><div> </div><div>You have absolutly no way of KNOWING that they are using third party programs. You can conjecture, deduct, guess and (as is most likely the case) assume, then make announcements, take screen shots and make petitions. However again, you have no way of KNOWING. You can only Believe.</div><div> </div><div>But none of this matters, because you won't be here in two weeks.</div><div> </div><div>. . .</div><div> </div><div>Unless of course you decide to continue on and valiantly fight the good fight for the betterment of the rest of the server and players. Or, unless of course you have seen progress made in the elimnation of the insidious farmers and then of course you must continue on with your noble course.</div>

[Scathi]

<div></div><div></div><div><font size="1">Placing myself at risk of having something horrible happening to me (such as being called a troll omg!), I'll just take a minute to point out some glaring issues with some of the "logic" being used here.</font></div><blockquote dir="ltr"><div><font size="1"></font><hr></div><div><font size="1">Eetum wrote:</font></div><div><font size="1">When they wanted to do something about it, they began and concluded an investigation in weeks. Tangible results followed. It didn't take a long time.</font></div><div><font size="1"></font><hr></div></blockquote><div><font size="1">Sometimes (dare I say usually) the results are that the player is allowed to go his or her own way because they were doing nothing against the rules, and that the petitioner was *gasp* wrong?  Those are tangible results.</font></div><blockquote dir="ltr"><div><font size="1"></font><hr></div><div><font size="1">Iglindor wrote:</font></div><div><font size="1">Well, if SOE decides to PM me on the forums, or use my private phone number wich is information available (i think) on both my accounts, i will get the project started. That wont happen though, because SOE prefers the ROI on expansion 3 over the black market issue any day... that's business. Not 100% clever business though. Besides the simplest and easiest to get started ideas are right here. Its not about a detailed list of exact things to implement but this is all about Logic and any clever person at SOE could pick this up from what is here already. The 'project' stuff i wont bother with here involves the fine tuning of other things that will help automate the weeding between Players and Workers.</font></div><div><font size="1"></font><hr></div></blockquote><div><font size="1">I agree with that it won't happen, but it isn't because SOE doesn't care about the "black market".  You cannot just whip up a program that tracks that many variables and expect it to work the way it was intended without any serious complications.  Ask any professional programmer and they'll tell you the same unless they are trying to build their portfolio.  None of these ideas are new; and worse, none of these ideas are practical.</font></div><blockquote dir="ltr"><div><font size="1"></font><hr>anaugi wrote:</div><div><font size="1">I personally petitioned them 6 times, with 3 form letter mail responses, and 3 interactions with GMs.  It was obvious what this group was doing... one leader, 4 on follow, I even pointed it out to a GM when the leader ran a corner and the 4 bots got stuck on a wall.. all of them.. for about 2 minutes.  No action taken. </font><hr></div></blockquote><div><font size="1">This honestly isn't meant to be a flame to anaugi, so I will apologize in advance if it comes off that way.  There is only one way to determine for sure whether or not a character is actually a bot (do not mistake this with being boxed), and that is because a bot will <em>always</em> follow a pattern.  It may be a very complicated pattern, but it will be there.  Crappy bot programs written by either newbies or the unimaginative (which most are, typically) will follow the same pathing down to the last decimal of their location.  They will also typically cast the same spells in the same order.  Bots will only rarely if ever get caught on geometry (trees, walls, etc) because they have their pathing programmed into it, meaning that someone went to that zone and marked down every single step that the bot should make.  They can do this manually (unlikely because of how tedious it is) or they can basically hit a "record" button and run the character themselves the first time creating the path that the character will follow every time thereafter.</font></div><div><font size="1"></font> </div><div><font size="1">There are several kinds of bots though.  The completely automated bots require no interaction from you at all.  Then there are some that require commands.  The latter ones are typically used to box several characters while you play one.  If I were playing a tank, I would say in group chat "Heal me" and the healer bot would heal me.  If I say "nuke" the DPS caster would nuke, etc.  But it requires you to put in commands or to establish the rules beforehand ("heal me at 50%" for example).  This second class of bot is typically auto-following the real character making it almost impossible to distinguish from a person boxing legitimately.</font></div><div><font size="1"></font> </div><div><font size="1">In your situation, that group you petitioned could very well have been someone boxing four characters.  If so, it isn't unlikely that the person boxing them would not notice them getting stuck for a while (used to happen to me quite often).  This would explain why the GMs did not do anything to him when you petitioned because let's all be honest.  The GMs stand a far better chance at sifting the bots from the boxers than any of us do because of the tools they have at their disposal.</font></div><div><font size="1"></font> </div><div><font size="1">In closing, I'd let to say that I think you are all exploiters.  Obviously you are only complaining about bots so as to lessen the competition for the good spots.  Now that the accusation is out there, I expect SOE to turn their time and attention to this matter immediately.  Investigate and ban them all, but do it fast.</font></div><p>Message Edited by Scathian on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:33 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Scathian on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:34 AM</span></p>

[Eet]

<div></div><div>The absence of visible action against botters would be excusable if the community was given updates about what progress was being made behind the scenes.</div><div>The lack of either shows an unwillingness to see the problem through to an actual solution.</div>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eetum wrote:<div></div><div>The absence of visible action against botters would be excusable if the community was given updates about what progress was being made behind the scenes.</div><div>The lack of either shows an unwillingness to see the problem through to an actual solution.</div><hr></blockquote>I disagree. I feel that it shows they're working on the many problems that stem from running an MMO rather than replying to the inflammatory posts and petitions. Telling you what's going on with another person's account would be a violation of their own privacy agreement. Also, informing the general gaming public about the status of ongoing investigations would be deeply stupid.

[Eet]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scathian wrote:<blockquote dir="ltr"><div><font size="1"></font><hr></div><div><font size="1">Eetum wrote:</font></div><div><font size="1">When they wanted to do something about it, they began and concluded an investigation in weeks. Tangible results followed. It didn't take a long time.</font></div><div><font size="1"></font><hr></div></blockquote><div><font size="1">Sometimes (dare I say usually) the results are that the player is allowed to go his or her own way because they were doing nothing against the rules, and that the petitioner was *gasp* wrong?  Those are tangible results.</font><hr></div></blockquote><p>Don't mince words. Erroneous petitions are unavoidable and irrelevant. A true result (as in, a partial solution to the problem we are talking about) would be a petition that led to the punishment of botters. That is, SOE actually enforcing their rules.</p>

[Eet]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Meekerme wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eetum wrote:<div></div><div>The absence of visible action against botters would be excusable if the community was given updates about what progress was being made behind the scenes.</div><div>The lack of either shows an unwillingness to see the problem through to an actual solution.</div><hr></blockquote>I disagree. I feel that it shows they're working on the many problems that stem from running an MMO rather than replying to the inflammatory posts and petitions. Telling you what's going on with another person's account would be a violation of their own privacy agreement. Also, informing the general gaming public about the status of ongoing investigations would be deeply stupid.<hr></blockquote><p>You say "they" like the devs have one big ambiguous workload, and instead of cracking down on botters they choose instead to work on new content or whatever. But there <em>are</em> people responsible for this kind of stuff.</p><p>I didn't say they would have to reveal details about someone else's account. They could easily release a statement saying that they are aware of the problem and are working on it, and have made X bannings so far. They've done so (once?) before. Police stations do the same thing. They don't release individual case information but can still give the statistics so the public knows they are doing their job.</p><p>It's basic accountability, and here it's missing.</p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Eetum wrote:<div></div><blockquote>You say "they" like the devs have one big ambiguous workload, and instead of cracking down on botters they choose instead to work on new content or whatever. But there <em>are</em> people responsible for this kind of stuff.</blockquote><p>I didn't say they would have to reveal details about someone else's account. They could easily release a statement saying that they are aware of the problem and are working on it, and have made X bannings so far. They've done so (once?) before. Police stations do the same thing. They don't release individual case information but can still give the statistics so the public knows they are doing their job.</p><p>It's basic accountability, and here it's missing.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Let me restate. They ( Devs, GMs, Guides) have many issues to deal with. The original topic of this thread is one of those many problems. A realativly small group of people who must work on a large number of problems shouldn't take time out of that large body of work to inform us of their progress. As you stated "It's basic accountability, and here it's missing." The point that i was making is this: SOE isn't accountable to me or you for their actions against someone else's account. Answering your petition or post with "We got your petition/post and we're working on it." discharges any accountablity they may have. To do anything more could open up the previously stated privacy issues or could endanger ongoing investigations.</p><p>By the way, police forces give out information on crimes that were reported, making sure that it is clear that these are reports, thus not proven. They also give out information on crimes solved. Sovling crimes requires <em>proof.</em></p><p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:21 PM</span></p>

[Eet]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Meekerme wrote:Let me restate. They ( Devs, GMs, Guides) have many issues to deal with. The original topic of this thread is one of those many problems. A realativly small group of people who must work on a large number of problems shouldn't take time out of that large body of work to inform us of their progress.<hr></blockquote><p>Again. There are SOE employees who focus on illicit activity in-game. There are also PR people. PR person senses a desire in the community for info on a particular subject, they go to the person responsible for that topic, say hey what's up, then tell us. Really not difficult.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Meekerme wrote:<p>By the way, police forces give out information on crimes that were reported, making sure that it is clear that these are reports, thus not proven. They also give out information on crimes solved. Sovling crimes requires <em>proof.</em></p><hr></blockquote><p>They wouldn't have to report on on-going investigations. They could say generally that progress has been made (X accounts banned) and that they are continuing to investigate.</p><p>Say what you want about how much proof is required -- the fact is that when a serious investigation was opened on Innothule 8 months ago, <strong>hundreds of accounts were identified and banned within weeks.</strong> Obviously they had gotten enough 'proof' to satisfy them that those accounts needed banning.</p><p>We have seen no such similar action in 8+ months. People like Meekerme seem to think it's because SOE is amassing evidence and just doesn't have enough yet to take action. But if SOE can get 'proof' in weeks, there's no excuse for not doing the same over an 8 month period.</p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Eetum wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>Again. There are SOE employees who focus on illicit activity in-game.</p><p><font color="#ccffff">That's true there are. How many of them are there? One per zone? One per server? Big job small group of people. </font></p><p>We have seen no such similar action in 8+ months. People like Meekerme seem to think it's because SOE is amassing evidence and just doesn't have enough yet to take action. But if SOE can get 'proof' in weeks, there's no excuse for not doing the same over an 8 month period.</p><p><font color="#ccffff">Actually, what i think is, the fact that SOE hasn't informed us of any action taken doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't taking any. It just means they aren't sharing. That may not be their smartest plan. It may not be the way you would run things. It is, however, perfectly within their rights.</font></p><hr></blockquote><p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:47 PM</span></p>

[Iglind]

Interesting. I have visited that certain website that shouldnt be linked a few times, to see about availability of plat on Faydark/Befallen. Not that i want to sell any coin, or buy any, but i looked anyway. Mostly they are well stocked. <span>:smileymad:</span> Some few times they had no plat for sale. <span>:smileyhappy: </span>Some of those times i tested the 'sell your game currency' part, but they never wanted EQ2 gold.<span></span>Surprise... now they do!<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/platselling.gif">What i often felt like doing was to buy a few plat (not because i need any) and then just hand over the delivery character name to SOE for a really easy (and quick? or 3 months investigating it first?) account ban. The evidence would be obvious. Ofcourse that might cost me as a buyer a few dollars but i dont count my spends anyway... i have plenty of numbers at the bank. But this! I mean if i go there and sell 2-7 plat for the great price of 1.4$ per plat, someone has to pick it up. IGE might just reverse the payment I get, after their account gets banned, but i dont care about that either. The times they buy coin from anyone, is just a perfect opportunity to nail IGE pickup-accounts. If SOE bothers to listen to someone who wants to do just that.But given SOE and their <i>great</i> ability to handle these things, i probably wont do it. Because some wise CS person would likely ban my account(s) for the sale, even if i inform them in advance and specificly do it just to hurt IGE. For every banned account, they do need to buy another game copy. <span>:smileytongue:SOE cant do this kind of thing to IGE, at least that is what the 'terms' say. But i can do it, and i dont give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about IGE getting upset if i deliberately trick them into exposing one of their accounts. Hmm, maybe this will be my Saturday entertainment instead of actually playing the game.Oh and i read true and interesting forum posts about how MMO games can end up like if commercial plat farming is not stopped. Let's just say its a situation no real game player wants. It can end up just like having a mafia controlling and dominating the economy.</span>PST Shebyear: This topic is not about Players farming items or money in the game. That has never been anything wrong, unless they dominate an area too extensively. It never has been about Players. Its about the people who do it for income one way or another.<div></div>

[Iglind]

<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/4920664.gif">Hello.This is an important petition related to previous ID 4917444 and others i sent lately about IGE/other companies rampant Plat Farming on the Befallen server. They work the game 24/7 and you need to stop it. I file the petition as an Exploit, because it is sort of an exploit being able to buy plat for dollars. The information however, should likely be passed on to whatever 'department' is investigating the 24/7 farming on Befallen.Please read this very carefully. I noticed IGE wanted to buy plat on Befallen/Good today, that option on their website is usually not open as far as i have ever seen. Note this: I DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN BUYING OR SELLING OF IN-GAME ITEMS for my own gain in any way shape or form. I am TOTALLY against it. And that is what this petition is about. I knowingly violated a game rule to help you get some banning action going.Public Forum Reference:http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=zones&message.id=5878&page=4I will post a copy of this petition, minus certain details, in that forum topic.I just now violated a game rule by placing an order with IGE to sell them 500 gold, for 7$. I did this for the ONLY purpose of exposing an IGE owned account. So here is the important part for me: Do not punish one of MY accounts (XXXXXXXX+XXXXXXXX) for doing something that helps you fight IGE. I did this for SOE and i logged this whole setup to try and make sure you understand that.If you decide to ban the account associated with the IGE character i met, or investigate what connections that character has with other accounts/characters is ofcourse up to you. I have the pickup IGE character on my 'friends' list now, along with the farming groups. I will see when that IGE character logs in again, if it happens.I met with character XXXXXX, who wanted 500 gold. That is the order i placed on the IGE website to expose an account for your investigations.Server        : BefallenIGE character : XXXXXXBelow are the related parts of the /log from the time i started this trap, to the time it closed. Log times are CET (GMT+1) i think you will have to subtract 8-9 hours to get local US times.Regards,/ Iglindor & Meemi(114206944<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Sat Mar 11 10:30:48 2006] Logging to 'logs/Befallen/eq2log_Meemi.txt' is now *ON*(114206948<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Sat Mar 11 10:31:28 2006] You say to the guild,"for the record, i just place a plat sale order with IGE, 5 plat for 7 $.  The purpose is only to expose an IGE pickup account, nothing else."(1142069594)[Sat Mar 11 10:33:14 2006] You say to the guild,"i wonder who will come to pick up the 500 gold pieces for IGE."(1142070139)[Sat Mar 11 10:42:19 2006] You say to the guild,"hmm, no pickup so far, i did choose Now for this transaction."(114207018<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Sat Mar 11 10:43:08 2006] You say to the guild,"Come to think of it! I dont have to complete this transaction! I can just hope an IGE characters comes here and wants 5 plat, and then dont deliver. Hmm."(114207026<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Sat Mar 11 10:44:28 2006] You say to the guild,"But that doesnt really complete the violation of game rules, perhaps. Since SOE seems to need looooong investigations and proof, i cant just do this half way. I will do the sale if someone shows up."(1142070334)[Sat Mar 11 10:45:34 2006] It is 08:55 AM of Steelday, Grayeven 26, of the year 3749(1142070334)[Sat Mar 11 10:45:34 2006] Earth Time: 10:45 AM 03/11/2006(1142070890)[Sat Mar 11 10:54:50 2006] aPC -1 XXXXXX:XXXXXX/a tells you,"hi"(1142070903)[Sat Mar 11 10:55:03 2006] aPC -1 XXXXXX:XXXXXX/a tells you,"Can u meet me at the willow wood dock please?"(1142070920)[Sat Mar 11 10:55:20 2006] You tell XXXXXX,"hello. ok coming there."(1142070935)[Sat Mar 11 10:55:35 2006] You have entered The Willow Wood.(114207095<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Sat Mar 11 10:55:58 2006] aPC -1 XXXXXX:XXXXXX/a tells Meemi,"thanks 500g tiger"(114207098<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Sat Mar 11 10:56:28 2006] You say to the guild,"ok, contact. Remember for log reasons, i do this ONLY to expose an IGE account."(1142070994)[Sat Mar 11 10:56:34 2006] You start a trade with XXXXXX.(1142071002)[Sat Mar 11 10:56:42 2006] You add 5 plat to the trade window.(1142071007)[Sat Mar 11 10:56:47 2006] XXXXXX has accepted the trade.(114207100<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Sat Mar 11 10:56:48 2006] Saving screenshot.(1142071010)[Sat Mar 11 10:56:50 2006] You have accepted the trade.(1142071012)[Sat Mar 11 10:56:52 2006] Saving screenshot.(1142071013)[Sat Mar 11 10:56:53 2006] aPC -1 XXXXXX:XXXXXX/a tells you,"thanks and have a nice day."(1142071021)[Sat Mar 11 10:57:01 2006] You tell XXXXXX,"you too have nice day."(1142071023)[Sat Mar 11 10:57:03 2006] Saving screenshot.(1142071035)[Sat Mar 11 10:57:15 2006] You have entered Qeynos Harbor.(1142071117)[Sat Mar 11 10:58:37 2006] You say to the guild,"ok so now XXXXXX from IGE picked up 5 plat. I could have spent those 5 plat on MUCH better things than exposing an IGE account. But i do believe SOe needs a bit of help here."(1142071126)[Sat Mar 11 10:58:46 2006] Added friend: XXXXXX(1142071225)[Sat Mar 11 11:00:25 2006] You say to the guild,"now off to look at the Paypal for the measly 7$... and hey, i will donate those 7$ and more to some charity. This is definitely not done because i need IGE dollars."(1142071340)[Sat Mar 11 11:02:20 2006] You say to the guild,"what might be interesting to see is the logins of XXXXXX. Maybe i should just wait a bit and see who meets with that character. Hmm, no i will let SOE do that kind of snooping, if they want to."--------------------------------------------------Now if SOE truly wanted, they could investigate things from the IGE side of things too. They have info on most of the farm groups that gather the plat on my server. They have (when the petition is read anyway...) at least one account on Befallen that is 100% guaranteed to be owned by the big cheeze in this black market business.  <span>:smileywink:</span>

[Divine Pow]

<div></div><p>Just remember everyone, 2-boxing isn't a crime. Some people do this for the extra chanllenge and independence. I sometimes wish I had a system setup and 2 accounts to be able to 2-box. Camping an area with lots off plat is not a crime either. We all try to get lots of money in this game. Reselling plat online is a crime in my mind.</p><p>We often make it very hard for sony to take action when we petition people multi-boxing, or people camping an area with lots of plat. Their isn't much they can do about that - and it wastes their time from taking on the real abusers of the system.</p><p>BUT, I am not so sure if it is a problem for Sony as they facilitate the reselling of plat on their "exchange" servers.</p>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scathian wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><font size="1"></font> </div><div><font size="3">In closing, I'd let to say that I think you are all exploiters.  Obviously you are only complaining about bots so as to lessen the competition for the good spots.  Now that the accusation is out there, I expect SOE to turn their time and attention to this matter immediately.  Investigate and ban them all, but do it fast.</font></div><p></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote>:smileyvery-happy: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Iglindor wrote:</p><p>PST Shebyear: This topic is not about Players farming items or money in the game. That has never been anything wrong, unless they dominate an area too extensively. It never has been about Players. Its about the people who do it for income one way or another.</p><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Iglindor, this may be true, however up to this point you seem to have been unable to distinguish between the two.</p><p>Every post you make implies that you are able to tell whether or not they are farming for their own in game gain, or for out of game monetary gain.</p><p>You also presume to know whether or not they are using third party programs or legitimate in game methods.</p><p>And I wonder what you mean when you say "that has never been anything wrong, unless they dominate an area too extensively."</p><p>If you mean wrong, as in a violation of the game that is worthy of petitioning or some other recourse along that lines, then you are incorrect.</p><p>If you mean it's bad form and irritating to the other players, but still within their rights, then you are correct.</p><p>And if you really want to get down to the details, then the thread is in fact about Bots and how fear tainted island is an ideal place for them to be. At least that's where it started and that is what the subject is.</p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Divine Power wrote:<div></div><p>Just remember everyone, 2-boxing isn't a crime. Some people do this for the extra chanllenge and independence. I sometimes wish I had a system setup and 2 accounts to be able to 2-box. Camping an area with lots off plat is not a crime either. We all try to get lots of money in this game. Reselling plat online is a crime in my mind.</p><p>We often make it very hard for sony to take action when we petition people multi-boxing, or people camping an area with lots of plat. Their isn't much they can do about that - and it wastes their time from taking on the real abusers of the system.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Exactly Divine. Those are the points that i've been making for the past 3 days.</p><p> </p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:<img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/4920664.gif">Hello.This is an important petition related to previous ID 4917444 and others i sent lately about IGE/other companies rampant Plat Farming on the Befallen server. They work the game 24/7 and you need to stop it. I file the petition as an Exploit, because it is sort of an exploit being able to buy plat for dollars..... Note this: I DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN BUYING OR SELLING OF IN-GAME ITEMS for my own gain in any way shape or form. I am TOTALLY against it. And that is what this petition is about. I knowingly violated a game rule to help you get some banning action going.Do not punish one of MY accounts (XXXXXXXX+XXXXXXXX) for doing something that helps you fight IGE. I did this for SOE and i logged this whole setup to try and make sure you understand that.If you decide to ban the account associated with the IGE character i met, or investigate what connections that character has with other accounts/characters is ofcourse up to you. I have the pickup IGE character on my 'friends' list now, along with the farming groups. I will see when that IGE character logs in again, if it happens.Now if SOE truly wanted, they could investigate things from the IGE side of things too. They have info on most of the farm groups that gather the plat on my server. They have (when the petition is read anyway...) at least one account on Befallen that is 100% guaranteed to be owned by the big cheeze in this black market business.  <span>:smileywink:</span><hr></blockquote>It's probably a good thing you're planning to leave the game. Although from your petition it sounds like you've changed your mind about that. SOE should ban you. You knowingly broke the rules. While i agree that you did it for a good reason, you still broke the rules. Then you handed them that information on a silver platter. Both your account and the account you sold to should be banned. Interestingly, in the the talk flying around this board about this character or that character should be banned there are only two bannings i would agree with. The person who bought the plat and you.

[Iglind]

"It's probably a good thing you're planning to leave the game. Although from your petition it sounds like you've changed your mind about that. SOE should ban you."I think i made it clear i am letting SOE decide if they are worth trusting when it comes to this dark side of their game or not. So they decide by the end of this months pay cycle if both my accounts remain in the game or not.And guess what? A few months ago i would have said the exact same thing. Ban me too for doing what i did! Doesnt matter if it was to help nail the badguys! Ban me! <span>:smileytongue:</span> But if SOE reads the last petition and takes proper action, it ends up doing Everyone a favour except IGE. I wont explain why, feel free to speculate on that. If they ban me too that is within their rules, but it would be insanely stupid of them to do it actually. They should know that, and if they dont well... that would not be my problem, but their problem. And it would be their ongoing problem with one less person who cares.<span></span>...You know, i learned about someone in another guild on Faydark kind of long ago, who had bought plat. A guild leadership person actually posted about it on a forum topic similar to this one, as if it was the most common thing in the game world and not such a huge issue the rest in that topic thought it was. The thing was, by the name of the guild leader person and certain things he wrote, it was easy to figure out wich character in their guild of about 4 that did it. That person was level 20 and had bought 20 (!!) plat 'because he wanted a horse and didnt know better' 'he regrets it now but we wont kick him from the guild or petition'... and i wondered. What is UP with people who dont want to Play the game? I thought that person should be banned, right away.I told the guild leadership person in-game my thoughts. But i did not petition about it, i let it go and i think that buyer escaoed without harm. And so do many many unaware buyers of coinage who just buy 1-10 plat to get started in the game. I think its an Information issue, there is no <font color="#ff0000"><b>unavoidable bold text</b></font> anywhere that tells new or established players that buying in-game currency/accounts etc with a credit card is a bannable offense. There should be. I actually saw that when i tried Lineage 2 for about one week. That game is now dominated by farming companies. SOE could send that particular information to every characters mailbox montly.. i dont know... something... anything... to tell Everyone in a way they cant avoid buying gold is not allowed. The buyers feed the black market and that market in the long run really hurts these types of games. Hence this very topic!My last petition is a PR decision for SOE really. And i will leave it at that. <span>:smileyhappy: I wrote that petition the way i did it to make sure they dont make a mistake in either this or that direction. It should be clear, if they (for instance) ban my account(s) exactly why they do it. And it is right here.</span>...With better Information to ALL players, about the consequenses of doing this thing below, it might happen a lot less frequently. Sure its in the EULA and the Help section, but who reads the entire EULA? Why search for help if you already know where to shop for coinage and assume its ok to do because you havent read otherwise? Try and information campaign SOE... it might help more than you think.<span></span><img src="http://iglindor.com/eq2/ebay.gif"><div></div>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Iglindor wrote:"It's probably a good thing you're planning to leave the game. Although from your petition it sounds like you've changed your mind about that. SOE should ban you."I think i made it clear i am letting SOE decide if they are worth trusting when it comes to this dark side of their game or not. So they decide by the end of this months pay cycle if both my accounts remain in the game or not.</p><p><font color="#ccffff">You didn't make it clear. That's why i made that comment. </font>And guess what? A few months ago i would have said the exact same thing. Ban me too for doing what i did! Doesnt matter if it was to help nail the badguys! Ban me! <span>:smileytongue:</span> But if SOE reads the last petition and takes proper action, it ends up doing Everyone a favour except IGE. I wont explain why, feel free to speculate on that. If they ban me too that is within their rules, but it would be insanely stupid of them to do it actually..... My last petition is a PR decision for SOE really. And i will leave it at that. <span>:smileyhappy: I wrote that petition the way i did it to make sure they dont make a mistake in either this or that direction. It should be clear, if they (for instance) ban my account(s) exactly why they do it. And it is right here.</span></p><p><span><font color="#ccffff">It is a PR decision. I totally agree. It's a fairly simple decision.  Either the rules stand or they don't. If SOE catches someone, or in this case, has a person inform them that they are, buying plat both the buyer and the seller accounts should be banned. To do otherwise makes it clear to all players that buying and selling plat is perfectly allowed as long as one party turns in the other. It would, in fact be insanely stupid of the SOE Devs and Gms not to ban both the buying and selling accounts.  Accounts which have violated the EULA (which i have read in its entirety. More than once.) should be banned. Period. If your account is banned it will be clear to me why they did it. You broke the rules. </font></span></p><p></p><hr></blockquote>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><p>Iglindor, while you may believe that your inentions are noble and altruistic your actions belie your words.</p><p>On the surface it may appear that you are a concientioius player, taking the time to report groups or players who appear to violate the user agreement.</p><p>However, you go far beyond that, you have stalked these groups and made presumptions about their intentions and methods of play. You then went further to post screenshots on the boards and made sweeping accusations about these players. You presume that you are infalible in your deductions and refuse to acknowledge that any other viewpoint could be valid.</p><p>I will acknowledge that you have toned down your posts and are less inflamatory now then you were in the begining, but that does not change the fact that your actions are those of someone acting as a vigilante at best, and an obsessive stalker at worst.</p><p>Including comments to your guild, then posting them to your board, about donating the whole $7 to charity becuase you cannot stand to have this dirty money in your possesion does not make you more noble it  is self agrandizement.</p><p>When logic and reason fail you make grand announcements about your proof and deductions, but you declare that won't share these obscure findings on these boards, presumably because they are to controversial. This does not make you appear noble, it makes you appear cowardly.</p><p>If you are banned by Sony for the selling of plat, the only one who will view you as a martyr for the noble cause of stomping out the evil plat farmers is . . . you.</p>

[Iglind]

<div></div>I made it clear in this topic about my March 28 date. I think i also made it clear what will convince me to stay here playing the game, or leave and find other MMO entertainment. I am going to play Oblivion anyway, but SOE decides by actions taken or not, about my future MMO gaming, right this month.I did not buy plat, i sold 5 plat. And just so you know it, i value 5 plat in this game a lot higher than a measly 7 dollars. <span>:smileytongue:</span> I just checked, i havent even gotten the money yet oh nooo... <span>:smileysad:</span> poor me <span>:smileysad:</span> now how am i going to pay the rent. <span>:smileysad: Re-calculated to dollars, i am a dollar-millionaire. There are quite a few of us in Sweden, actually. So i honestly couldnt care less if i ever get the dollars or not. What i want, is some noticeable action against the black market. What sparked it was the killing of my character, and other Players around me, on Fear Tainted Island, with no suspending of the offending group(s). So much for the Rules humm... and the someone wise says:</span>"<span><font color="#ccffff">t is a PR decision. I totally agree. It's a fairly simple decision.  Either the rules stand or they don't"So far the rules <u>dont</u> stand! <span>:smileysurprised:</span> And that is also a point of this topic. But i guess that is hard to figure out.edit: Sheybear's posts arent even worth commenting on my end, sorry. <span>:smileywink:</span></font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Iglindor on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:45 AM</span></p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:<div></div><span>What i want, is some noticeable action against the black market. What sparked it was the killing of my character, and other Players around me, on Fear Tainted Island, with no suspending of the offending group(s). </span><span><font color="#ccffff"></font></span><div></div><p></p><hr></blockquote>Your charcter got killed. I understand how frustrating that can be. You assumed that the characters who trained you work for IGE and petitioned them. The GM got your petition, correct? The charcters who trained you are still there? So the GM got your petition, saw that the group who trained you were farming which <em>is not against the rules.</em> Maybe even warned them about the traning and moved on. That is noticeable action. It's just not the action you want.<hr>Iglindor wrote:<div></div><span>So much for the Rules humm... and the someone wise says:</span>"<span><font color="#ccffff">t is a PR decision. I totally agree. It's a fairly simple decision.  Either the rules stand or they don't"So far the rules <u>dont</u> stand! <span>:smileysurprised:</span> And that is also a point of this topic. But i guess that is hard to figure out.</font></span><hr></blockquote>Thank you for the compliment. So far the rules do stand. If SOE catches someone buying or selling plat they ban them. It's not at all hard to figure out. Only one of the many accusations you have made in this thread is provable. You sold plat in game. Both you and the person who bought from you should be banned. Wether SOE stands by their rules at this point is the only question.<blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:<div></div><span><font color="#ccffff">edit: Sheybear's posts arent even worth commenting on my end, sorry. <span>:smileywink:</span></font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>That was quite the flame, Shey. However, Iglindor, ignoring her  doesn't make her wrong..<p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:32 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:01 PM</span></p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:PST Shebyear: This topic is not about Players farming items or money in the game. That has never been anything wrong, unless they dominate an area too extensively. It never has been about Players. Its about the people who do it for income one way or another.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Thank you for finally coming around to the self evident point that i made 3 days ago.</p><p>The point, as i see it, is despite those who claim that "everyone knows" who the plat sellers are or that "bots are easy to spot. Here's a list of ways to spot them" unless you have GM tools at your disposal or are willing to break the rules to buy or sell from those farmers it is impossible to tell if they are farming for legit in game use or other uses that would violate the EULA. If you break the rules in order to catch plat sellers, no matter your motive you should be banned.</p><p>Also, it is nobody else's responsibility to ensure that you get the mobs that you want. So if you feel that someone is "dominating an area too extensively" it is your responsibility to win the contested mob from them by tagging the mob first with your encounters locked. If they commit an offence during the race for the mob then report them.  </p>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Sheybear wrote:<div></div><p>-If all else fails, declare the other poster as unworthy of your time and announce what other activity you will go do. (generally playing the game, watching TV, or something else that is not important, however it proves the point that the other poster is worth even less then the mindless activity you are about to engage in. )</p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ccffff">"edit: Sheybear's posts arent even worth commenting on my end, sorry. <span><img height="16" width="16" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0"></span></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Iglindor on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:45 AM"</span></p><p><span class="time_text">'Nuff said.</span></p><p>Message Edited by Sheybear on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:16 PM</span></p>

[Iglind]

Just some reading, that might enlighten some people about a possible EQ2 future. This is what the black market will do if they can. It's all about the $$$ for those bot groups etc etc and they are just as hungry for more income as SOE is. Its business, and left too much slack it will hurt any MMO game.--------------------------- partial quote from another forum.XXXXXXX, I dare you to try out Lineage 2 and say the game economy isn't harmed by farmers, it's controlled by them.The best example I can think of, aside from the day to day routine of them controlling almost all pricing, was a year or so ago when a new grade of equipment was added to the game. Legit players and farmers gathered the materials to craft the new gear, some legit players kept theirs for their own use or clan use, some put them on the market to sell at what they believed the going rate should be. The farmers, one specific farmer-boss in charge of a very large and powerful clan of farmers, bought every shred of these materials on the market, then sat on them awhile. Then his farmer clan locked players out of these areas where the mats dropped. When players were begging and desperate for these materials, then he sold them.. at 100x the price they should have been.Currently another new grade has just been introduced (the last month or so) into the game. You can only get these items from raid bosses. Raid bosses only spawn every 12-24 hours, depending on the boss (the unique super-bosses even slower respawn time). There's farmer clans on every server consisting of a tank, a few mana rechargers, and the rest nukers, that farm these raid bosses 24/7. They have the boss dead within a couple minutes of it spawning, and unless you bring an entire alliance worth of people (assembled in a couple minutes.. yeah right), fighting them off is not an option usually. <b>They control the new grade market. Not only do they set the prices too high for any legit player, no matter how resourceful or hardcore, to afford.. but they also sell the adena they make off this gear to IGE/Ebay/players to fund those players buying the gear in the first place.</b>--------------------------- end partial quote from another forum.Now off you go, any KoS gamer who doesnt have enough plat to buy those Rough Moonstones for 4+ plat each. Buy the coin from IGE (actually DONT!) and then buy the lowest priced Moonstones on the broker. Typically somenoe with a random generated name (and in one of my Groups) who has more than one rare up will end up the seller. Make a qualified guess where the plat goes then... through one of the low-cost companies that Work the game, then right back to IGE to be sold again. It's like printing money when it happens, and it does happen.Each week the black market does take over a little piece of what should be a Player driven Game economy. The stronger and more influencial the black market grows, the worse things get. If SOE cant keep the farmers out of at least the newest (and most 'profitable') expansion, it is a sign of defeat. It really is.If you dont believe it... well, try Lineage 2. I did, but only 1 week then i quit. <span>:smileywink:The next little reading related to this stuff is about EQ2 actually. Some people really should play on Station Exchange servers... <span>:smileysad:</span></span><div></div>

[Iglind]

--------------------------- partial quote from another forum.I agree about the person having advantage because they are rich... 2 examples...UO i sold 2 accounts for $3K dollars and I asked the guy on the phone what he was going to do with the accounts... He owned an engine building company and was going to use the accounts as rewards to his employees. If they got the engines done by Thursday, Friday would be a paid day at work, but they would come in and have beer and pizza and play UO. These guys would PK the hell out of people and have fun LOL releasing stress from the previous workweek... Not a bad stress reliever.Next in EQ2 we had a friend that was very wealthy--millions of dollars. He would buy the highest level character in each class and would buy tons of plat. This was nice when he was in the guild, but when he got [Removed for Content] and left he took all his toons and competed against our guild for mobs. Wasn't nice and because he had more money than us he could dominate the market--------------------------- end partial quote from another forum.I could buy <u>all</u> the plat off IGE they have available, but i dont plan to do it. Some other people with platinum cards dont care about game rules though. Nice to know isnt it, that the achievements some play a game for months to gain can be bought. If you have enough excess money lying around.<div></div>

[Meeker]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:Just some reading, that might enlighten some people about a possible EQ2 future. This is what the black market will do if they can. It's all about the $$$ for those bot groups etc etc and they are just as hungry for more income as SOE is. Its business, and left too much slack it will hurt any MMO game.Each week the black market does take over a little piece of what should be a Player driven Game economy. The stronger and more influencial the black market grows, the worse things get. If SOE cant keep the farmers out of at least the newest (and most 'profitable') expansion, it is a sign of defeat. It really is.If you dont believe it... well, try Lineage 2. I did, but only 1 week then i quit. <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ccffff">If these characters are killing mobs for these items then they are playing the game. Thus, they are players driving the economy. They may not be driving the economy in a direction any of us want but that is just too bad. The example (term used loosely) that you have given reflect bad game design. Nothing else. Logical game designers use an economic model based on the extreme high point and work from there, meaning, they assume that every mob is going to be killed as soon as it pops and adjust spawn rates and loot drops from there. Game farming is totally within the rules. Buying and selling plat, outside of Station servers,  is not. Posting another series of paragraphs full of groundless accusations doesn't make your point any more valid. It just adds more manure to the pile you've already made. </font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">Iglindor wrote:</font></p><p> "Next in EQ2 we had a friend that was very wealthy--millions of dollars. He would buy the highest level character in each class and would buy tons of plat. This was nice when he was in the guild, but when he got [Removed for Content] and left he took all his toons and competed against our guild for mobs. Wasn't nice and because he had more money than us he could dominate the market".... "I could buy <u>all</u> the plat off IGE they have available, but i dont plan to do it. Some other people with platinum cards dont care about game rules though. Nice to know isnt it, that the achievements some play a game for months to gain can be bought."</p><p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___</p><p><font color="#ccffff">It seems this person has the same fluctuating morals that you have. It's ok to buy and sell plat if it benefits you or your guild, or, in your case, if you can justify it in any way. It only becomes a problem when you stop benefiting from it. You could buy all the plat but you don't plan to do it. You'll just sell some, knowingly violating the rules, if you feel it's justified. </font></p><p></p><hr>Iglindor wrote:PST Shebyear: This topic is not about Players farming items or money in the game. That has never been anything wrong, unless they dominate an area too extensively. It never has been about Players.<hr><p><font color="#ccffff">You understood this yesterday. What happened?</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___</font></p><p><font color="#ccffff"><font color="#f0e1de">Iglindor wrote:</font></font></p><p><font color="#ccffff"><font color="#f0e1de">But then again... i am seriously about to cancel my two accounts and find another game.</font></font></p><p><font color="#ccffff"><font color="#f0e1de">Watch out farmers on my new home Befallen... that is all i have to add for this post. And they really better watch out. But they dont know it. </font><span><img height="16" width="16" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" border="0"> </span></font></p><p><font color="#ccffff"><span></span></font><font color="#ccffff"><font color="#ffffff"><span>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____</span></font></font></p><p><font color="#ccffff">In previous posts on this thread you have asked a number of questions directly to SOE and then been baffled as to why you haven't gotten an answer directly from SOE. As i have stated in the past i'm sure that SOE is far too busy seeking out actual proof of exploitation to answer you directly. However that doesn't seem to be enough for you so please allow me to speculate. Why doesn't SOE come find "your Groups"? After all you have them on webcam. You follow them and you take screenshots. Perhaps it is because SOE doesn't want to encourage stalking, which is what you're doing. Why doesn't SOE react to the news that you will leave after a certain time and take your two accounts with you? Perhaps because you have been threatening to leave for over a year now and yet you are still playing, still buying the expansions, still paying.    </font></p><p><font color="#ccffff">edited for spelling</font></p><p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:48 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:52 AM</span></p>

[Iglind]

Meekerme, sorry, but you arent worth discussing with much anymore. <span><span>Some people just dont get the <u>big</u> picture. :smileytongue:</span></span><span>I dont need posts from any SOE staff in this topic. I adress them as a company, because I know moderators scan most forum topics. Devs, GM's and others also read the forums at times, depending on the topics they might just follow them too. They dont post much though, and they dont have to. I myself normally read topics about 500 times more than i post. Except in this topic.Oh and skip the 'fluctuating moral' crap. FBI, DEA, CIA and other countries police type agencies pay informers to help them etc etc and on and on. So there you have Real World law enforcement agencies paying drug dealers etc to help them. Go choke on that for a comparison. They also make deals with criminals to nail bigger fish. Choke on that too. SOE doesnt pay anyone to help them, the only thing gotten is a thank you for the help. That is quite enough for me in a Game, if i see some results.<span></span>I choosed to finish one deal with IGE now because it is better if IGE pays me a measly 7$ than having My money going To them. That is the logic behind it, and its the only difference between a buying or selling transaction. The purpose is just to expose an account, SOE cant do it the way i did it. If this gives some more results than what i have seen so far i might Sell again, but then i <u>will not hand over any coin</u> just expose the character name and log it. That should be enough, and doesnt break any rules. Well, it is probably against IGE terms to tell SOE about their accounts but do i care? Nope, not one bit.Just saw IGE wants coinage on most EQ2 servers, perhaps it's time to create a bunch of temporary characters who dont really have any coin to sell anyway. But IGE wouldnt know that until it is too late. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>As for the rest, no need to discuss much anymore. I am going to keep gathering interesting related tidbits of information here.I have already noticed minor results from my reports to SOE.Next week might be more interesting, now it is weekend after all. <span>:smileyhappy:</span><span>Pst: the webcam was only for fun and in its own doesnt do much good.But, some people just dont get the big picture. <span>:smileytongue:Pst x 2 - The guild chat channel was at the time not heard by anyone but me, i used it instead of Say or <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> OOC chat only to get a decent log. But the same people who complain about me drawing imaginary conclusions, well they do the same to be critical. Without knowing anything about my guild chat, someone concluded i spoke there to guild members in all my glory to motivate a holy crusade or something... whatever. <span>:smileytongue:</span></span></span><span></span>Oh well. This topic just keeps growing doesnt it. Good.</span><div></div>

[Meeker]

<div></div><div><blockquote><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:Meekerme, sorry, but you arent worth discussing with much anymore. <span><span>Some people just dont get the <u>big</u> picture. :smileytongue:</span></span><span>As for the rest, no need to discuss much anymore. I am going to keep gathering interesting related tidbits of information here.<span><span></span></span><span></span>Oh well. This topic just keeps growing doesnt it. Good.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ccffff">I think Shey said it better than i ever could.</font><hr>Sheybear wrote:<div></div><p>-If all else fails, declare the other poster as unworthy of your time and announce what other activity you will go do. (generally playing the game, watching TV, or something else that is not important, however it proves the point that the other poster is worth even less then the mindless activity you are about to engage in. )</p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ccffff">"edit: Sheybear's posts arent even worth commenting on my end, sorry. <span><img height="16" width="16" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0"></span></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Iglindor on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:45 AM"</span></p><p><span class="time_text">'Nuff said.</span></p><p>Message Edited by Sheybear on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:16 PM</span></p><p><span class="time_text">__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____</span></p></div><p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:05 AM</span></p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:<span>Oh and skip the 'fluctuating moral' crap. FBI, DEA, CIA and other countries police type agencies pay informers to help them etc etc and on and on. So there you have Real World law enforcement agencies paying drug dealers etc to help them. Go choke on that for a comparison. They also make deals with criminals to nail bigger fish. Choke on that too. SOE doesnt pay anyone to help them, the only thing gotten is a thank you for the help. That is quite enough for me in a Game, if i see some results.<span></span>I choosed to finish one deal with IGE now because it is better if IGE pays me a measly 7$ than having My money going To them. That is the logic behind it, and its the only difference between a buying or selling transaction. The purpose is just to expose an account, SOE cant do it the way i did it. If this gives some more results than what i have seen so far i might Sell again, but then i <u>will not hand over any coin</u> just expose the character name and log it. That should be enough, and doesnt break any rules. Well, it is probably against IGE terms to tell SOE about their accounts but do i care? Nope, not one bit.Just saw IGE wants coinage on most EQ2 servers, perhaps it's time to create a bunch of temporary characters who dont really have any coin to sell anyway. But IGE wouldnt know that until it is too late. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ccffff">You are not on SOE's staff. You are not a paid informant. SOE is not the FBI, DEA, or CIA. YOu are not an EQ2 ploice officer not matter how badly you wish you are. Following groups in order to harry them...yeah that's vigilateism. Putting them on webcam, taking screenshots, continuing to follow them, that's stalking.  As i stated previously, you have seen results. You just haven't seen the results you want to see. You have made clear that you got a reply to your petition and a thank you for petitioning...obviously that isn't enough for you.</font></p><p><font color="#ccffff">You chose to complete a deal with a plat buyer. You comprimised your own morals in order to do something that you felt was justified. Fluctuation. </font></p><p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:17 AM</span></p>

[Iglind]

"<font color="#ccffff">YOu are not an EQ2 ploice officer not matter how badly you wish you are."You must be reading my mind.... <span>:smileyvery-happy: and yes, i am being sarcastic about that.Meekeerme, you are not the forum police. But i will do like you and claim you must be wishing you were. <span>:smileywink:I say:Plat Farmer = people who Work the game for business purposes, no matter what country they live in. Please dont arrest me! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span></span></font><div></div>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:"<font color="#ccffff">YOu are not an EQ2 ploice officer not matter how badly you wish you are."You must be reading my mind.... <span>:smileyvery-happy: and yes, i am being sarcastic about that.Meekeerme, you are not the forum police. But i will do like you and claim you must be wishing you were. <span>:smileywink:I say:Plat Farmer = people who Work the game for business purposes, no matter what country they live in. Please dont arrest me! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span></span></font><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Wow you really got me there. I'm the forum police. I'm impressed that you pegged me so exactly</p><p>Or from another point of view. I am doing my best to act as the voice of reason.</p><p>Your defenition is wrong. A plat farmer is a person who kills mobs over and over again to gain money or items. A plat farmer may well be a plat seller, however, without GM tools, or players breaking the rules, there is no way to prove that.</p><p>By the way, adding more groundless accusations to your pile doesn't hide the fact that you have failed to refute my points.</p>

[Eet]

<div></div><div>Regarding 'proof'. The botters are in business because of the plat seller companies. If investigating botters were too ambiguous or lengthy of a process (though the case I referenced in my previous posts suggests that it doesn't have to be), SOE could crack down on the botter problem by waging war on the plat sellers. There are a number of ways they could do this but the simplest would be to use Iglindor's method. Have an investigator pretend they want to buy plat then ban the merchant account when they come to make the exchange. That's about as solid any 'proof' is going to get. Yeah the plat seller companies would try to adapt but if SOE really wanted to they could follow their tactics, evolve with them, put them on the defensive. Send a message. If there are legal restraints they could get around them by networking with the community as they have done in isolated cases in the past. Lack of manpower or scarcity of development resources aren't excuses because they have a fair sized body of people who would be willing to help put a stop to this.</div><div> </div><div><div>I don't buy the "it's hard and takes a long time" or "they are trying, they just aren't telling us" lines. That's baseless speculation.</div></div><div> </div><div>No one knows what SOE is doing about the botter problem. They aren't telling us and we aren't seeing much in the way of results.</div><div> </div><div>I say they don't care like they used to say they do.</div>

[Iglind]

" No Sony employees are permitted to purchase from this website or from us by any method. Buyer wholly assumes all risks and agrees to defend, hold harmless, and indemnify the Company for any claims made by SOE and others in relation to this transaction and the use of SOE intellectual property." and more and more Terms & conditions written by IGE.Notice the part i bold here <b>No Sony employees are permitted to purchase from this website or from us by any method.</b>SOE cant do what i did, for legal reasons. If they could, the very likely would hit them regularly. It is a 100% sure way to identify black market accounts and force sales of new game accounts. They could create accounts for free ofcourse, creating email addresses to use is a piece of cake. But then again... Perhaps Meekeerme can explain how any paid type of SOE Police could do any harm to IGE without (as a paid SOE employee) breaking a contract. Enlighten us all with your wisdom.On another note, i didnt read the whole contract. But it doesnt say right there in their T&C that SOE employes cant Sell things using their website. Hmm. Interesting. Maybe time to read the entire T&C... <span>:smileytongue: sorry Meekeerme, no need to explain things, i will just go read the whole T&C myself. Maybe the SOE legal department should see if this really is a loophole in their contract. That would be something to laugh at... maybe IGE hired their lawyers from under a rock.</span><div></div>

[Meeker]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Eetum wrote:<div></div><div>Regarding 'proof'. The botters are in business because of the plat seller companies. If investigating botters were too ambiguous or lengthy of a process (though the case I referenced in my previous posts suggests that it doesn't have to be), SOE could crack down on the botter problem by waging war on the plat sellers. There are a number of ways they could do this but the simplest would be to use Iglindor's method.</div><div><div>I don't buy the "it's hard and takes a long time" or "they are trying, they just aren't telling us" lines. That's baseless speculation.</div></div><div> </div><div>No one knows what SOE is doing about the botter problem. They aren't telling us and we aren't seeing much in the way of results.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>Botters and plat farmers are not, necessarily the same. Two sperate terms. Two seperate definitions.</p><p>Them crackdown which you mentioned previously involed to very blatant problems. From the way you have described it, the player was stalking these groups. If, as you state, the player was working with a GM, and under a GM's direction, that player becomes an agent of SOE. As IGlindor stated above that could cause legal problems.</p><p>Iglindor's method involes violating the rules in the same way the person she bought from violated the rules. Both should be banned, in my opinion.</p><p>Speculation, yes. Baseless, no. If i petition and i get a response which states some thing like "Thank you for your petition. We are investigating." Then i believe SOE is investigating. I have no reason not to believe them.</p><p>Again, results have been seen. They are just not the results that you want to see. </p><p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:01 AM</span></p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:" No Sony employees are permitted to purchase from this website or from us by any method. Buyer wholly assumes all risks and agrees to defend, hold harmless, and indemnify the Company for any claims made by SOE and others in relation to this transaction and the use of SOE intellectual property." and more and more Terms & conditions written by IGE.Notice the part i bold here <b>No Sony employees are permitted to purchase from this website or from us by any method.</b>SOE cant do what i did, for legal reasons. If they could, the very likely would hit them regularly. It is a 100% sure way to identify black market accounts and force sales of new game accounts. They could create accounts for free ofcourse, creating email addresses to use is a piece of cake. But then again... Perhaps Meekeerme can explain how any paid type of SOE Police could do any harm to IGE without (as a paid SOE employee) breaking a contract. Enlighten us all with your wisdom.On another note, i didnt read the whole contract. But it doesnt say right there in their T&C that SOE employes cant Sell things using their website. Hmm. Interesting. Maybe time to read the entire T&C... <span>:smileytongue: sorry Meekeerme, no need to explain things, i will just go read the whole T&C myself. Maybe the SOE legal department should see if this really is a loophole in their contract. That would be something to laugh at... maybe IGE hired their lawyers from under a rock.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Thank you again for the compliment.</p><p>You've answered your own question. SOE can't, legally, act in the fashion you did. Since i don't have the UA in front of me i can't say for sure, however, i would speculate that allowing unpaid investigator to do the same would make said investigator an agent of SOE and thus any action taken would be eliminated from evidence in any prosecution.  What you did was in violation both the SOE UA and the IGE UA since you have stated you presumed to be acting on behalf of SOE. Thus the only way that SOE can eliminate plat sellers is the slow way. It may not be the way you want. But it is the best route they have.</p><p>You continue to add more to the pile and fail to refute my points.</p><p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:10 AM</span></p>

[Iglind]

"Again, results have been seen. They are just not the results that you want to see."Meekeerme is appearing to be in the Does Not Care about seeing results corner.Nice, then you can go right back to playing the game, cant you?"As IGlindor stated above that could cause legal problems."Nope, i didnt state that, not about in-game activities. Meekeerme, you appear to not  even know that IGE and the companies (and others) that are in the game doing the gathering of coin for $$$ are not the same yet? Oh... why am i not surprised. If you are just here to be a critic and talk Terms feel free to create a new forum topic about it. <span>You know, you could leave this topic to people who want Results and who have a clue about what is going on. :smileywink:</span>Hmm, no i did not 'assume' to be acting on behalf of SOE. And actually, i dont think i violated the IGE terms of service. If i did, i dont care at all. I acted on my own behalf, to do Something to help keep the game cleaner of cheaters, and a few less of the 2$ per day bot teams."You continue to add more to the pile and fail to refute my points."Not interested. You are just trying to stir up useless posts about non-relevant things here. So read the line above, and go back to playing the game. I dont play the game lately, and i stay on topic, so i have a good enough reason to post here.Ofcourse, Meekeerme, you are free to keep posting.Just dont be upset if i (really) ignore you from now on.<span></span><div></div>

[Eet]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Meekerme wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Eetum wrote:<div></div><div>Regarding 'proof'. The botters are in business because of the plat seller companies. If investigating botters were too ambiguous or lengthy of a process (though the case I referenced in my previous posts suggests that it doesn't have to be), SOE could crack down on the botter problem by waging war on the plat sellers. There are a number of ways they could do this but the simplest would be to use Iglindor's method.</div><div><div>I don't buy the "it's hard and takes a long time" or "they are trying, they just aren't telling us" lines. That's baseless speculation.</div></div><div> </div><div>No one knows what SOE is doing about the botter problem. They aren't telling us and we aren't seeing much in the way of results.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>Botters and plat farmers are not, necessarily the same. Two sperate terms. Two seperate definitions.</p><p>Them crackdown which you mentioned previously involed to very blatant problems. From the way you have described it, the player was stalking these groups. If, as you state, the player was working with a GM, and under a GM's direction, that player becomes an agent of SOE. As IGlindor stated above that could cause legal problems.</p><p>Iglindor's method involes violating the rules in the same way the person she bought from violated the rules. Both should be banned, in my opinion.</p><p>Speculation, yes. Baseless, no. If i petition and i get a response which states some thing like "Thank you for your petition. We are investigating." Then i believe SOE is investigating. I have no reason not to believe them.</p><p>Again, results have been seen. They are just not the results that you want to see. </p><p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:01 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Nowhere did I mention plat farmers. I said plat selling companies. Plat selling/buying and botting are different but are two sides of the same coin. Plat farming is not illicit and it's not what I'm talking about.</p><p>If you believe the response to your petition by an outsourced India-based CSR who has little idea of actual gameplay issues that's your prerogative. I'm sure there "is" an investigation, as in there are open cases, but I question what is actually being done.</p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:"Again, results have been seen. They are just not the results that you want to see."Meekeerme is appearing to be in the Does Not Care about seeing results corner.Nice, then you can go right back to playing the game, cant you?<div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ccffff">I have seen results. So have you. You just don't like them</font>.<blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:"As IGlindor stated above that could cause legal problems."Nope, i didnt state that, not about in-game activities.<p></p><hr><p><font color="#ccffff">Yes you did state it. Quite clearly.</font></p></blockquote><p>         _________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___</p><p>         Iglindor wrote:</p><p>         SOE cant do what i did, for legal reasons.</p><p>         _________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote: Meekeerme, you appear to not  even know that IGE and the companies (and others) that are in the game doing the gathering of coin for $$$ are not the same yet? Oh... why am i not surprised. If you are just here to be a critic and talk Terms feel free to create a new forum topic about it. <span>You know, you could leave this topic to people who want Results and who have a clue about what is going on. :smileywink:</span><div></div><p></p><hr><p><font color="#ccffff">I do not claim to know the inner workings of IGE, SOE or any other company. I only speculate and when i do so a make it clear that i am speculating. If that has somehow been unclear i apologize. I'll try to make it more clear from now on. </font></p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:Hmm, no i did not 'assume' to be acting on behalf of SOE. And actually, i dont think i violated the IGE terms of service. If i did, i dont care at all. I acted on my own behalf, to do Something to help keep the game cleaner of cheaters, and a few less of the 2$ per day bot teams.<hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ccffff">Yes, actually you did. </font> _________________________________________________ ___________________________________________</p></blockquote><p>          Iglindor wrote:</p><p>          I did this for SOE and i logged this whole setup to try and make sure you understand that.</p><p>        __________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __</p><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote: If you are just here to be a critic and talk Terms feel free to create a new forum topic about it. <span>You know, you could leave this topic to people who want Results and who have a clue about what is going on. :smileywink:</span>Not interested. You are just trying to stir up useless posts about non-relevant things here. So read the line above, and go back to playing the game. I dont play the game lately, and i stay on topic, so i have a good enough reason to post here.Ofcourse, Meekeerme, you are free to keep posting.Just dont be upset if i (really) ignore you from now on.<span></span></blockquote><div></div><hr><p><font color="#ccffff">BAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. Once again i look to Shey.</font></p><blockquote><font color="#ffffff"></font><hr>Sheybear wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#ffffff">-If all else fails, declare the other poster as unworthy of your time and announce what other activity you will go do. (generally playing the game, watching TV, or something else that is not important, however it proves the point that the other poster is worth even less then the mindless activity you are about to engage in. )</font></p><hr></blockquote><p> </p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eetum wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Nowhere did I mention plat farmers. I said plat selling companies. Plat selling/buying and botting are different but are two sides of the same coin. Plat farming is not illicit and it's not what I'm talking about.</blockquote><p>If you believe the response to your petition by an outsourced India-based CSR who has little idea of actual gameplay issues that's your prerogative. I'm sure there "is" an investigation, as in there are open cases, but I question what is actually being done.</p><hr></blockquote>You're right. You didn't. I misread what you wrote. I apologize.I do believe it. I'm perfectly happy to let SOE do their job on their schedule.

[Iglind]

<div></div>Exactly Eetum.Getting the 'we will investigate' generic response from a CS means just about nothing, not as far as results go anyway. However, when one finally talks to a CS/GM and they actually say they have investigated the issue and <u>sent it to the concerned department.</u> <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> That is when they are (hopefully!) looking at the information seriously. The GM's just sort certain things out and forward, at least that is what one said lately.Well, maybe most of the time they dont forward petitions about Group A-J etc... that would explain the slowness of things.Group B and F have not logged in at all over the weekend. Maybe they have a weekend job and play EQ2 24/7 all weekdays. Or maybe its their job to play all weekdays 24/7 and they get the weekends off? <span>:smileytongue:</span> I hope, at the very minimum, that Group B is gone and never comes back. They killed Meemi. <span>:smileysad:edit: Its difficult to ignore the flame-bait poster here,but i will just 'go do something else more important'... <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Iglindor on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:03 PM</span></p>

[Meeker]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:<div></div>Exactly Eetum.Getting the 'we will investigate' generic response from a CS means just about nothing, not as far as results go anyway. However, when one finally talks to a CS/GM and they actually say they have investigated the issue and <u>sent it to the concerned department.</u> <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> That is when they are (hopefully!) looking at the information seriously.<hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ccffff">So, "We are investigating." is insufficent unless you get a tell, a PM or are told so in chat? </font>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __</p><p>Sheybear wrote:</p><p>If someone disagrees with your post there are some cheap, but commonly used responses. </p><p>-They are a troll. If you accuse them of being a troll (<font color="#ccffff">or in this case a flame baiter) </font>then any an all responses they make will only further prove the original troll accusation. If they respond with anger or frustration then obviously they are a troll look how inflamed their arguements are now. If they try to respond with logic and explain how they were not trolling, then clearly they are backpedaling.</p><p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___</p><p><font color="#ccffff">BA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.</font></p><p><font color="#ccffff">As i stated previously, adding more to the pile doesn't refute my points. Neither does pretending to ignore me.</font></p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Meekerme on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:35 PM</span></p>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:<span>Oh and skip the 'fluctuating moral' crap. FBI, DEA, CIA and other countries police type agencies pay informers to help them etc etc and on and on. So there you have Real World law enforcement agencies paying drug dealers etc to help them. Go choke on that for a comparison. They also make deals with criminals to nail bigger fish. Choke on that too. SOE doesnt pay anyone to help them, the only thing gotten is a thank you for the help. That is quite enough for me in a Game, if i see some results.<span></span>I choosed to finish one deal with IGE now because it is better if IGE pays me a measly 7$ than having My money going To them. That is the logic behind it, and its the only difference between a buying or selling transaction. The purpose is just to expose an account, SOE cant do it the way i did it. If this gives some more results than what i have seen so far i might Sell again, but then i <u>will not hand over any coin</u> just expose the character name and log it. That should be enough, and doesnt break any rules. Well, it is probably against IGE terms to tell SOE about their accounts but do i care? Nope, not one bit.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>LOL so comparing in game issues and rules of conduct, like . . . innocent until proven guilty, is wrong and worthy of getting slammed on . . until you post it.</p><p>This, ladies and gentlemen, is a classic example of a double standard. :smileyvery-happy:</p>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:<span><span><span>Pst x 2 - The guild chat channel was at the time not heard by anyone but me, i used it instead of Say or <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> OOC chat only to get a decent log. But the same people who complain about me drawing imaginary conclusions, well they do the same to be critical. Without knowing anything about my guild chat, someone concluded i spoke there to guild members in all my glory to motivate a holy crusade or something... whatever. <span>:smileytongue:</span></span></span><span></span>Oh well. This topic just keeps growing doesnt it. Good.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I do not presume to know anything about your guild, guild chat, or anything involving your guild.</p><p>You have mentioned, your abililty to buy large amounts of plat, as well as your business skills, and other grand statement seemingly intended to impress the readers of the boards. Whether it is your intention or not, it comes accross as self agrandizing. Your posts in regards to your earnest effort to help Sony also appear to be attempts to do two things. 1) create the appearance of nobility and self sacrifice 2) create a situation where if you are forced to quit or are banned you are able to declare yourself a martyr to the cause of stomping out plat farming / selling.</p><p>I do not presume to know your intentions, if I did not make that clear before I do apologize. But rather I am pointing out the way in which you come accross. And attempting to do it without cheap methods such as calling you a troll, flame baiter, or declare you as un worthy of my time.</p><p>If I find your ranting, postulating and general antics boring and unworthy of my time I will simply stop reading them and responding.</p><p>However at this time I do find them amusing and find that it helps me to blow off a little bit of steam to come here and go back and forth with you.</p><p>But I suppose that makes me a troll. If so . . . so be it. I think I can live with that title.</p>

[Meeker]

<div></div>Too true Shey. Sadly, it's one of many

[Luna2]

<div></div><div>Going to write off Meekerme and Sheybear as IGE shills, nothing else makes sense.</div>

[Kyriel]

<div>guys can we please stop reorting the bots.. they have to put food on the table <em>somehow</em>.....:smileytongue:</div>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Luna242 wrote:<div></div><div>Going to write off Meekerme and Sheybear as IGE shills, nothing else makes sense.</div><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ccffff">To quote Shey once again;</font>This is the logic that I love on these boards.</p><p>It's pretty standard from what I've seen.</p><p>If someone disagrees with your post there are some cheap, but commonly used responses. </p><p>-They are a troll. <font color="#ccffff">(Or a shill in this case.)</font>If you accuse them of being a troll then any an all responses they make will only further prove the original troll accusation. If they respond with anger or frustration then obviously they are a troll look how inflamed their arguements are now. If they try to respond with logic and explain how they were not trolling, then clearly they are backpedaling.</p><p><font color="#ccffff">Feel free to consider me a shill. (points for word useage)  It may well be the only thing that makes sense to you. If so that's a shame. I'm still waiting for someone to <em>prove </em>that without GM tools you can accurately spot a botter and differentiate between them and a two-boxer. </font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">Luna242 Wrote:</font></p><p>Saying the usual nonsense with innocent until proven guilty is not valid, everyone know who these people are and what they are ingame for.</p><p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _</p><p><font color="#ccffff">This is what happens when you don't require proof. <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=gameplay&message.id=43412&page=1" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=gameplay&message.id=43412&page=1</a></font></p><p><font color="#ccffff"></font> </p>

[Iglind]

Meekerme..."This is what happens when you don't require proof."<b>Wrong.</b> That was SOE proof taking action, one way or another, something made them decide to ban some accounts but not others. No player 'speculations' involved anywhere there. That thing can happen, because all the 'proof' SOE needs to act is: exactly whatever proof they decide they need. Wich can be next to nothing, or a books worth of logs. They decide what is enough. Mistakes happen sometimes regardless of proof level required. For all we really know, the banned account might just have been banned for a good reason. We sure dont have Proof of anything else, do we? No. You sure choose when to pick a side based on <i>proof</i> or not, conveniently to try and support your own criticism of me. :smileywink:There might (really should be) be a forum rule against Copying several lines of off-topic text and Repeatingly post them in one topic to Dilute the On-Topic posts and discussion.Example:As for proof of training previously. Even if i had posted video clips of it happening, some people already claimed on these forums video can be faked. It can! Especially 3d computer cideo clips. Doesnt matter if 99.9% of people couldnt do it, it can be done so video isnt proof. Case closed, i guess. No training happened, it was all an illusion. :smileytongue:I could gather the much awaited proof of rule violation actually. But that requires 24/7 in-game 'stalking' of Group X or Y... and to do that, i have to break the rules myself. Because account sharing is not allowed. If i tell 2-3 employees of mine to switch job tasks and follow EQ2 groups around (using one of my 2 accounts) to log Activity around the clock, i would break the rules. Besides, i already canceled the 'required resources' to do something major. It shouldnt be needed.I have the next best thing though. Wait a few days and it will all add up.In the mean time, my efforts are adding to SOE results when it comes to keeping the game, as SOE puts it themselves 'clean and to the policy'... :smileytongue: I know what previous forum post someone probably wants to copy+paste below that last line from me. But that doesnt help keep the game 'clean and to the policy' at all.<div></div>

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Iglindor wrote:Meekerme..."This is what happens when you don't require proof."<b>Wrong.</b> That was SOE proof taking action, one way or another, something made them decide to ban some accounts but not others. No player 'speculations' involved anywhere there. That thing can happen, because all the 'proof' SOE needs to act is: exactly whatever proof they decide they need.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ccffff">That's true. It's proof of SOE taking action. They have been taking action all along. I've never required further proof of this. "Thank you for your petition we are investigating"...yeah that's action. I find it very interesting that you only feel the action is valid when it's the action you want. All the proof SOE needs is the amount they decide they need. They have obviously decided they need aome level of proof. The point that i've been arguing from the begining is that no player's word, not yours, not mine, not anyone's constitues proof. Thank you for finally coming around to the point that i made from the start. SOE obviously feels they need some form of proof. Your word? Not enough. </font></p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:There might (really should be) be a forum rule against Copying several lines of off-topic text and Repeatingly post them in one topic to Dilute the On-Topic posts and discussion.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ccffff">The hypocrisy of this statement boggles my mind. Please see posts 108 and 109 of this thread. So my question is this...does that particular statement bother you because it's cut and pasted, or because it is so very accurate?</font></p><p> </p><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Iglindor wrote:I could gather the much awaited proof of rule violation actually. But that requires 24/7 in-game 'stalking' of Group X or Y... and to do that, i have to break the rules myself. Because account sharing is not allowed. If i tell 2-3 employees of mine to switch job tasks and follow EQ2 groups around (using one of my 2 accounts) to log Activity around the clock, i would break the rules.</p><div></div><p></p><hr><p><font color="#ccffff">You've already gathered proof of rule violation. You, yourself violated the rules to do so.You've already stalked groups. You've already broken the rules. </font></p><p><font color="#ccffff">Assuming that the person who posted on the other thread is telling the truth. Her husband got caught in a mass banning. Did SOE have proof that that particular person had done anything wrong? Not from the information we are given. Does that mean they didn't have any? No, not at all. Again, assuming that the person who posted is innocent, it is a clear example of one of the many points that i made in my previous posts. Innocent people getting punished along with thte guilty.  </font></p></blockquote><p><font color="#ccffff"></font> </p>

[Iglind]

Meekerme quote "bla bla bla bla... bla bla..."in comes Sheybear the wife fan club,quote "bla bla bla... blabedibla... blablibla..."<span></span>In the meantime i will keep my ability to see the Big Picture. <span>:smileyhappy:</span><span><span></span></span><div></div>

[Zero]

<div></div>I usually don't post on this type of topic but after seeing so many posts like this I thought I would just throw my two cents it.  Yes I agree that plat farming is wrong blah blah blah and all the stuff that goes with it.  But I rarely see people talk about the other side of things.  Sure you say that these guys farm plat for money, but does anyone ever talk about the people who actually are in game and buy the plat from companies such as IGE?  Remember that plat farming isnt going to make companies money if nobody is buying their product.  People who buy plat to me are just as guilty as those who farm it.

[Melfius]

<div></div>And with all the toon names being bandied about in here, I foresee a lock in the near future...

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Melfius wrote:<div></div>And with all the toon names being bandied about in here, I foresee a lock in the near future...<hr></blockquote><font color="#ccffff">Probably but it'll remain fun while it lasts. lol</font>

[Kyriel]

<div>oh, in that case,</div><div>IBTL !</div>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Luna242 wrote:<div></div><div>Going to write off Meekerme and Sheybear as IGE shills, nothing else makes sense.</div><hr></blockquote><p>LOL if  you say so.</p><p>I'm not supporting Bots, I'm just trying to point out the other side of things. That perhaps Sony has investigated and perhaps . . . (dramatic pause for effect) Iglindor could be wrong!</p><p>GASP!</p>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zemfira wrote:<div>guys can we please stop reorting the bots.. they have to put food on the table <em>somehow</em>.....:smileytongue:</div><hr></blockquote>HA HA HA HA HA HA :smileyvery-happy:

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:in comes Sheybear the wife fan club,<div></div><hr></blockquote>*Snicker*

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:Meekerme quote "bla bla bla bla... bla bla..."in comes Sheybear the wife fan club,quote "bla bla bla... blabedibla... blablibla..."<span></span>In the meantime i will keep my ability to see the Big Picture. <span>:smileyhappy:</span><span><span></span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ccffff">Every time i read this i get the image of a small child looking at a large painting with their fingers in their ears yelling "LALALALA I CAN"T HEAR YOU! LALALALA I"M IGNORING YOU!" Thanks for the laugh. </font>

[Melfius]

<div></div>Well, the beholders on Fear Tainted Isle aren't dropping anything as far as I could tell last night (and believe me, I TRIED!), and while the beholders in Barren Sky are dropping eyestalks, they are only worth about 25s.  Bummer.