Broken Record: Kill the Bots

[EvilIguana9]

When the exchange servers came out, there was a lot of hullabaloo over what would come of the really annoying plat farmers.  We were reassured that SOE was still committed to removing bots from the game.  Months have passed, and from the point of view of this player that looks to be a broken promise. Let me be perfectrly clear: the bots are still here, they are still glaringly obvious and they still ruin the play experience for others.  I have petitioned about this and promptly gotten a canned response (the wrong canned response actually) and a closed ticket.  Please guys.  Something has to be done.  It was said in the past that the folks at SOE want to make the gameplay experience better for the honest customers by removing the dishonest ones.  I don't know where the disconnect is but that is apparently not getting done.  The worst part is the lack of communication on the subject.  Posts like this one get locked with haste with the assurance that the situation is being handled internally, but when nothing at all changes in game you'll have to forgive us for thinking that the problem simply isn't being handled.  The only way the bot problem will be solved is with the active effort of the CS team.  No amount of coding changes will deter these people completely.  Not that the signs are hard to read exactly.  Casual play in the bot infested zones will reveal the perpetrators quite quickly.  From there proving the wrongful intent is rather easy, after all the servers generate logs and tracking the loot should be simple.  Please fix the problem. Oh. And... In Before Lock *sigh* <div></div>

[ZachBos]

<P>I'm not in these high level zones where plat farming is taking place but I certainly remember how it ruined Lineage II and I don't want that to happen here.  I hope SOE doesn't try to fix the problem with code changes as it would probably impact honest players more so than the botters, as they would simply make a smarter bot.</P> <P>I think the only way to stop them is to actively seek them out in-game and ban them when they're caught.  I read that plat/loot farming is a 100,000 person industry in asian countries (across all MMPOG's).  That being said, stopping farmers will be a daunting task.</P> <P>What about the approach of going after places like EBAY and other sites that sell this stuff?  Has that approach already been shot down or deemed that it's not a legal matter?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[zit]

<DIV>i am dissappointed as well. </DIV> <DIV>as long as botters dont interfere with my game play i usually dont care so much about them, but it happened quite often recently that they ruined the fun of my play experience by perma camping and dominating some very interesting spots 24/7. </DIV> <DIV>actually this has become one of the most annoying issues in the game for me, only beaten by the fact that SOE seems to absolutely not care about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[roarfrost]

<div></div> Step 1:    Block all non U.S. IP ranges from U.S. servers and merge some low population U.S. servers. Step 2:    Require the use of a U.S. issued credit card with a U.S. cardholder's address. Step 3:    Actually pay attention to players who have been reporting the same bots for weeks or months. Step 4:    Periodically pose as customers and attempt to buy plat from online companies. Step 5:    Use a heavy hand and start banning. Done. 99% bot problems gone. Can't play with friends from Europe and Australia? Bummer, but I'd take that over bot infested servers any day. Would be nice if there was at least one U.S.-only server that required a U.S. credit card to play on.

[Ashtu]

Actually, all they'd have to do is move all characters from accounts consistantly coming from east asia IPs or billing addresses to the SOGA servers, then prevent creation on non-soga servers and block them.  Heck, just the chinese ones would probably cut down 95% of em.  Almost all the 24/7 plat farmers are asian.  Thats not racist, thats a fact.

[Iglind]

After actively reporting about a few easily noticed group adventuring farmers, i can say without a doubt that SOE Customer Service will most times return a quick cut & paste response. The well known 'thank you bla bla we will investigate bla bla' response. After that one, typically absolutely nothing happens. There are other responses too though, typically a CS person saying hello in chat if you stay online a couple hours after sending a petition. Talking to them seems to make them investigate at once, sometimes they go in game visibly too. However... there are are several big issues. <span>:smileymad:</span> Different CS person every petition about plat farmers (i mean groups, solo farmers, harvesters & crafting botters), even the 5th about the same group ends up with new staff. Only way to reference to previous petitions is to keep the old ID. I have started screen shotting all my petitions about this problem, keeping a clear record of when things were reported, and who handled (or not) the issue. I also noticed with the last group that was removed, after lots and lots of work on my side... too much actually, that CS people give warnings to even the most obvious 24/7 bot-groups farming Feerrott. That is just a waste of time!! The people who Work the game will not care about warnings, they will keep doing what they do as long as they dont get permanently banned. Give warnings to Players who cheat by buying plat (and take their plat!). Make note of warned players, if they buy plat again move them to an SE server where they belong. Plat farmers who Work the game for a living or extra income should not be warned, they should get banned. And they should also in many quite clear cases just be <u>suspended while investigated.</u> I just started bothering CS staff about a new bot group leveling up on Faydark. 1 leader + 4 bots. They were level 25 when i first happened to notice them in Steppes. They are now level 35 and spent hours lately farming poor Scorpupine (or whatever) in EL. So umm... i read other posts on the forums about trying to get rid of new bot groups before they get to start farming bigger coins, not much luck. But i wont quit. And when the easy to spot groups are history, SOE will get a list of solo farmers, and the rest of the bunch. I play almost every day, and i know pretty well which characters are the fishy ones. The ones whos only interest ever in the game is selling things, but never buying, never grouping with others, and where on earth does all their plat go... <span>:smileytongue:</span> well SOE: Your CS peoples so called investigations should figure that out quite easily. Then track sources and destinations from the mules. Then hit the Ban button and send plat buyers a serious warning. There is one word for what one faces when trying to help SOE clean up the black market: Resistance They wont do anything unless one gets Really Annoying about it repeatedly, for weeks on end. Sad but true. Perhaps it really is time to start posting things on the forums. And perhaps talk to Smedley... after all, he has make a public statement against farming. Much talk and very little action i say. <span>:smileysad:</span> <div></div>

[Iglind]

roarfrost... " Step 2:    Require the use of a U.S. issued credit card with a U.S. cardholder's address." How about: Require the use of a European issued credit card with a European cardholder's address... *boggle* That was the most stupid step to stop plat farming i ever read. Seriously. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> Starting to actively ban IP blocks owned by the bigger asian plat farming companies, now that might work. <div></div>

[Ashtu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iglindor wrote:<BR><BR>Give warnings to Players who cheat by buying plat (and take their plat!). Make note of warned players, if they buy plat again move them to an SE server where they belong. Plat farmers who Work the game for a living or extra income should not be warned, they should get banned. And they should also in many quite clear cases just be <U>suspended while investigated.</U><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Give them a warning?  No, send them to the exchange servers on the first offense.  I'd ban them on the spot of I were running things.  As much as I dislike farmers, its the ***hole buyers that are the root of the problem.  Farmers wouldn't be here if there wasn't a market for their services.<BR>

[Coastwatcher]

<DIV>WoW just nixed 18,000+ accounts of bot farmers (and other undesirables). I don't know how to link it yet, but it's on their main site. SOE should get cracking on this problem as or even more aggressively than Blizzard does.</DIV>

[Iglind]

That is what i want too actually, banning of plat buyers. It would make it a dangerous gamble to buy coin instead of earning it. What i ment was, if CS staff wants to warn some people for breaking rules, its better to warn real players than the business accounts. Real players after all might take ntoe on a warning and some other punishment than instant bans. Some players actually (and honestly) dont even know buying plat is against game rules. The unaware plat buyers i can almost see how it happens. There sure isnt any warnings on the seller websites that plat buyers are breaking the game EULA. However, IGE does say it is not allowed for SOE employees to buy coin from them... wonder why they dont want that. <span>:smileytongue: Reason i read their terms of service, is i might just get myself a third account and nail some delivery mules every month. Requires 0 investigations, 1 account down every time, plus likely another account (whoever sent the delivery character its coin...). But the problem there is i would have to pay for hurting the plat businesses... not worth it to me, but i could do it. </span><div></div>

[Iglind]

Link... <a href="http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/" target=_blank>we have permanently closed more than 18,000 accounts over the past three months</a> "In keeping with Blizzard's aggressive stance against cheating in World of Warcraft, we have permanently closed more than 18,000 accounts over the past three months for participating in activities that violate the game's Terms of Use. <p> A majority of these accounts were found to be using third-party programs to farm gold and items. Such actions can severely impact the economy of a realm and the overall game enjoyment for all players. </p> <p> We will continue to actively monitor all World of Warcraft realms in order to protect the service and its players from the negative effects of cheating. Please note that selling World of Warcraft content, such as gold, items, and characters, can result in the permanent removal of the involved accounts from World of Warcraft." </p> <p>Wowie!... almost makes me want to go try that game. <span>:smileyvery-happy: </span></p> <p><span>I went to buy and try Lineage 2 this month, wasnt fun so i am still here most of the time. <span>:smileyhappy:</span> </span></p> <div></div>

[Zebsen]

<DIV>I had another post about griefing by plat farmers but in my case there was a person at the keys, not a bot.  Either way it's frustrating.  My point is that killing bot programs will be a great start, but will not eliminate plat/item farming.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point is: why do named mobs have a higher % chance to drop master chests?  They drop their own treasured loot as their reward.  Why should they have an increased chance at fabled loot?  At best the chance of a master chest from a named heroic should be very slightly above the non-named heroics for the added difficulty, but anything more than about 5% is going to encourage farming.  Master chests off of named solo mobs should occur at no greater frequency than a non-named heroic group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the average heroic group has a 0.1% chance of a master chest, up it to 0.3% and decrease the named master chest rate to about 1%.  Remove it entirely for solo named mobs that are just asking to be farmed (see my post on the CoR).  Make masters something that general groups rarely get from random heroic mobs rather than specific mobs that have specific timers that can be farmed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My thoughts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zebsen</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[roarfrost]

<div></div><span></span><span><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote: " Step 2:    Require the use of a U.S. issued credit card with a U.S. cardholder's address." That was the most stupid step to stop plat farming i ever read. Seriously.<span></span> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span> Sorry you don't agree. Seems to make sense to me though. Most EQ2 customers are in the U.S. Most servers are in the U.S. The Devs are in the U.S. SOE is probably incorporated in the U.S.  (The CSRs, well who knows where they are, likely Aisa). But the biggest reason is that there is much more control over credit card fraud in the U.S. than in say...a few former soviet bloc Eurpoean countries. SOE would be in better position to prosecute credit card fraudsters (who are often associted with online buying and selling) if they only had to deal with U.S. companies. Just eliminating gaming cards would be a great step. I'm not saying this step alone will stop farmers, I'm saying its one part in a plan that would reduce them considerably. I do commend you on being so dedicated to eliminating botters though. I must admit, after being ignored for so long, I'm not as persistant reporting them anymore.

[Iglind]

I guarantee there are tons of legitimate European customers playing this game. <span>:smileyhappy:</span> There might be some plat farmers active from certain 'eastern european' countries though. That would not surprise me, anywhere where one can hire people to work for very little pay those farms can be run from.  But even then... an asian company can easily get hold of US issued credit cards. So it just isnt a part of a solution. Anyways... i wish the black market didnt exist. Wonder if Mr Santa is listening or not. <span>:smileywink:</span> <div></div>

[Yask]

<DIV>Never cease's to amaze me how so many Americans think any place outside their own borders is akin to a third world country.</DIV> <DIV>Gotta love that education system....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But apart from that?  Yeah get rid of the bots!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Drift3r]

<div></div>A IP ban is a joke especially if they are using a ISP that uses DHCP or they know how to mask their ip address which any one with half a brain and time to search the web on how to do this can do. Also the whole credit card thing is a joke as well. A lot of people use game cards to pay for their online game time because they don't have a credit card and so do farmers. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Drift3r on <span class=date_text>12-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:57 PM</span>

[Drift3r]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Coastwatcher wrote:<div>WoW just nixed 18,000+ accounts of bot farmers (and other undesirables). I don't know how to link it yet, but it's on their main site. SOE should get cracking on this problem as or even more aggressively than Blizzard does.</div><hr></blockquote>They banned bots but a lot of gold farmers aren't using bots to farm in WoW.<div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Drift3r on <span class=date_text>12-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 PM</span>

[wullailhuit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Iglindor wrote:Link... <a href="http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/" target="_blank">we have permanently closed more than 18,000 accounts over the past three months</a> "In keeping with Blizzard's aggressive stance against cheating in World of Warcraft, we have permanently closed more than 18,000 accounts over the past three months for participating in activities that violate the game's Terms of Use. <p> A majority of these accounts were found to be using third-party programs to farm gold and items. Such actions can severely impact the economy of a realm and the overall game enjoyment for all players. </p> <p> We will continue to actively monitor all World of Warcraft realms in order to protect the service and its players from the negative effects of cheating. Please note that selling World of Warcraft content, such as gold, items, and characters, can result in the permanent removal of the involved accounts from World of Warcraft." </p> <p>Wowie!... almost makes me want to go try that game. <span>:smileyvery-happy: </span></p> <p><span>I went to buy and try Lineage 2 this month, wasnt fun so i am still here most of the time. <span>:smileyhappy:</span> </span></p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>This was possible because WoW includes a 'watcher' program that scans for known bot script programs in the game itself...that info is then passed onto Blizzard along with the account ID , minus any personal identifiable information. SoE decided to try this route once and the American 'we don't want you spying on our machine' lobby made such a stink they had to remove it. </span><div></div>

[Daeanor]

EQ2 has similar "watcher" programs, they have been mentioned by the devs. The problem is most farmers and resalers on EQ2 aren't bots at all, they are live players multi-boxing. There is a big difference, and they can only ban them for other types of violations (like monopolizing an area, or a spawn) which are harder to prove.

[Vorlak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> roarfrost wrote:<BR> <P><BR>Step 1:    Block all non U.S. IP ranges from U.S. servers and merge some low population U.S. servers.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Yes... because the united states citizens would never farm plat for money... My friend dosnt own a Corvett because of selling items from EQ1, honest.<BR></FONT><BR>Step 2:    Require the use of a U.S. issued credit card with a U.S. cardholder's address.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>This accomplishes what, immaigration control on a mmorpg or something? Does it really matter where you play from a person in New York or a person in Russia has access to the same resources to do the same thing.</FONT><BR><BR>Step 3:    Actually pay attention to players who have been reporting the same bots for weeks or months.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Do you relize if they put more resources to this you would have to pay more? either that or things would get tested, fixed, and less content would be added at a slower rate or same rate with more problems.. causing more people to leave...</FONT><BR><BR>Step 4:    Periodically pose as customers and attempt to buy plat from online companies.<BR><FONT color=#ffcc00>Now this acctully makes sence, setup a sting operation find out excatly who they are and band the account and anything associaded with the mac/ip address that came over the wire (this would kill all the accounts from that machine or router). This would cost the company money though and they wouldnt be making any money off it unless they sued the people for damages.<BR></FONT><BR>Step 5:    Use a heavy hand and start banning.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>This wont work unless you can prove without reasonable doubt that they are breaking any of the EULA, camping a mob over and over for items dosnt break the game rules but selling the item for actual money if not on the correct server is so see step4 for the only legal way to remove the account. That again would cost us players more money monthly.</FONT><BR><BR>Done. 99% bot problems gone.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>people are smart they will always figure away around the rules and game mechanics.</FONT></P> <P><BR>Can't play with friends from Europe and Australia? Bummer, but I'd take that over bot infested servers any day. Would be nice if there was at least one U.S.-only server that required a U.S. credit card to play on.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>are you really this ignorant?</FONT><BR><BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Would people be willing to pay $5 more a month to have this police service? Then what if the service becomes corrupt and there are scandels of people selling because they have immunities from the law...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont think anything can stop plat farmers without hurting the current players who dont plat farm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Vorlak on <SPAN class=date_text>12-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:36 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Vorlak on <span class=date_text>12-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:36 AM</span>

[roarfrost]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Vorlak wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> roarfrost wrote: <div></div> <p>Step 1:    Block all non U.S. IP ranges from U.S. servers and merge some low population U.S. servers.<font color="#ff0000">Yes... because the united states citizens would never farm plat for money... My friend dosnt own a Corvett because of selling items from EQ1, honest.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffffcc">Doesn't matter, the vast majority are from Aisa. They ruin things for everyone else. Put them in their own sandbox that they can foul, and leave ours alone. And the idea that I don't think you grasp here is that the plan is to drastically reduce the number of botters/farmers, and their impact on the game, not to eliminate them altogether, which would likely be impossible.</font> </p> <p> Step 2:    Require the use of a U.S. issued credit card with a U.S. cardholder's address.<font color="#ff0000">This accomplishes what, immaigration control on a mmorpg or something? Does it really matter where you play from a person in New York or a person in Russia has access to the same resources to do the same thing. </font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffcc">It accomplishes the reduction of credit card fraud. Credit card fraud often goes hand in hand with online buying and selling, and farmers playing the shell game with different accounts to stay in business. Do some research. Credit card fraud in some European countries is outrageous. Not to mention the rest of the world. Not to mention fraud in general. There are some Asian countries where 95% of the proprietary software in use is stolen. </font></font>Step 3:    Actually pay attention to players who have been reporting the same bots for weeks or months.<font color="#ff0000">Do you relize if they put more resources to this you would have to pay more? either that or things would get tested, fixed, and less content would be added at a slower rate or same rate with more problems.. causing more people to leave... </font></p> <p> <font color="#ffffcc">Yeah, I'm sure all the new 'Grump That Stole Christmas' and bugged pots will come to a screeching halt just because they have to hire a few more CSRs in Bangalore.</font> </p> Can't play with friends from Europe and Australia? Bummer, but I'd take that over bot infested servers any day. Would be nice if there was at least one U.S.-only server that required a U.S. credit card to play on. <p><font color="#ff0000">are you really this ignorant?</font><font color="#ffffcc">Why do you care? Why do any of you non-North Americans care if we had our own server. Make it voluntary of course. Implement the things I suggested, and it would have the least bot/farmer problems of any server. Probably the least of any popular online game period.</font></p> <p></p></blockquote><div> </div> <div>I dont think anything can stop plat farmers without hurting the current players who dont plat farm. <font color="#ffffcc">This weak, defeatist attitude of yours is why they continue to thrive.</font> </div> <hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[gita]

the problem is not the software to catch botters, SOE know wath ones are boting. The problem is SOE is not baning them. Why dont wanna ban ? i have no idea. I have a screenshot from Splitpaw server at the tradeskill instance in Temple Street on a GM watching for HOURS a know botter (i talked on the GM a little), well only a idiot c'ant see is a botter, is there more then 1 month, 24 hours per day, and placed at half distance from NPC to buy/sell stuff and at half from the chem table. Is easy to buy that macros at EBAY, u know, i know and SOE KNOW. Only need ONE thing.....   BAN BAN BAN BAN yes.. that "know" botter is still at that tradeskill instance "cheating" the game 24 hours per day, is allready "catched" by a GM but..... why not BAN ? That is a dead horse, SOE dont wanna ban the cheaters... period. <div></div>

[Firam]

Roarfrost wrote:<i>"Step 1:    Block all non U.S. IP ranges from U.S. servers and merge some low population U.S. servers."</i> As an American currently living in Japan (military) and an EQ player since release in 1999, I would find this solution to be about the most offensive thing Sony could do to me as a customer.  Not only would I cancel my subscription immediately, I would seek out as many public forums as I could in which to voice my displeasure at the level of customer service I had received.  Any other person in my situation, any European, ANY legitimate non-US-resident English speaking person would scream bloody murder at this.  Before making suggestions on how to fix a problem, <b>think about what you are saying.</b><div></div>

[Enigm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iglindor wrote:<BR>roarfrost...<BR><BR>" Step 2:    Require the use of a U.S. issued credit card with a U.S. cardholder's address."<BR><BR>How about: Require the use of a European issued credit card with a European cardholder's address... *boggle*<BR><BR>That was the most stupid step to stop plat farming i ever read. Seriously. <SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:</SPAN><BR><BR>Starting to actively ban IP blocks owned by the bigger asian plat farming companies, now that might work.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>He ment on the US servers. Here is an idea read and understand what you are reading? Its a good idea on the <FONT color=#ff0000 size=7>US Servers <FONT color=#ffffff size=3>to require a <FONT color=#ff0000 size=7>US backed CC. <FONT color=#ffffff size=3>And then on the euro server you can require a <FONT color=#ff3300 size=7>Euro <FONT color=#ffffff size=3>what ever you guys use over there.</FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3> Btw if you start baning ips why don't we just ban any non US ip that way we can keep all of em out?</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Baning ips wil work for a bit but an ip can be spoofed. The best idea would be not allow mony trades between toons problem solved.  Sure would suck for bit but then I never did like twinkies anyhow .</FONT></P>

[roarfrost]

<span><blockquote><hr>Firamas wrote:Roarfrost wrote:<i>"Step 1:    Block all non U.S. IP ranges from U.S. servers and merge some low population U.S. servers."</i> As an American currently living in Japan (military) and an EQ player since release in 1999, I would find this solution to be about the most offensive thing Sony could do to me as a customer.  Not only would I cancel my subscription immediately, I would seek out as many public forums as I could in which to voice my displeasure at the level of customer service I had received.  Any other person in my situation, any European, ANY legitimate non-US-resident English speaking person would scream bloody murder at this.  Before making suggestions on how to fix a problem, <b>think about what you are saying.</b><div></div><hr></blockquote> I know exactly what I'm saying. Yes, it may be an inconvenience for you, but better for many others and for the overall game. Even having a handfull of U.S.-only servers would be a great step forward. You could still have your bot-infested "anything goes" servers too. On another note, why do people get all defensive at this suggestion? I'm not demeaning any other country or region, I'm just dealing with reality and facts. If all the steps I suggested were done, the bot/farmer problem would be almost completely eliminated. </span><div></div>

[Krooner]

<P>Both solutions you pupose could be side stepped with a few moments thought.</P> <P>IP's can be spoofed...YEP</P> <P>No trading money between toons... Blah.  Money can still be mailed... or items placed on the broker with the other box immediatly purchasing the item for the cash transfer. </P> <P>Result..... NO FIX </P>

[Hollywood]

<DIV>So... when can I expect the Canadian server to open since we don't use American credit cards?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by HollywoodCJH on <span class=date_text>12-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:15 PM</span>

[Tib]

<DIV>Do we even allow Canadians to have opinions?  Ban all Canadians..... for no reason other than the fact they are from Canada.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the immortal words of "Kyles Mom"  -  BLAME CANADA!</DIV>

[Tarmagin]

<DIV>The bot/farming problem really got bad again with the release of DOF and has been getting worse since.  Every zone has at least one group of farmers.  They are pathetically easy to spot.  My son is 12 and only plays about 10 to 15 hours a week and he is always pointing them out to me.  I play a bit more often and have lists of them that are pages long.  </DIV> <DIV>I can't count how many posts and reports I have made to SOE,  ALL TO NO AVAIL.  It is so discouraging to see the same groups day after day farming the same stuff day after day and nothing is done to them no matter how many people report them.  All I have to ask is,  WHY?  Why won't you ban them like you emphatically stated you would.  I could list dozens of ways to catch them but it is pointless because SOE knows who they are.  They are just refusing to take action against them.  All we can ask is,  WHY?</DIV>

[MaxOverload]

They don't ban them because they don't want to ban them.SOE is selling them platinum, plain and simple. Ever think about the number of servers and the amount of platinum they must have stored to run a business? How many accounts involved to run even a single Bot group on each server? And then think of the number of plat selling services out there. That's a load of cash going into SOE's coffers. They are selling platinum. Then you also need to consider the number of players who can't handle the inflated economy, who hang out because Platinum is less than $4 each now and they can compete.That's a load of cash going into SOE's coffers. They are selling platinum.Then consider the Skript Kiddies, who make up for the lack of cheat codes by buying massive stacks of plat to pay "whatever it takes" to get the "elite gear" to make them be "uber".That's a load of cash going into SOE's coffers. They are selling platinum.In Before Lock.

[Modesto]

<P>You sir, I believe, are onto something. I am in total agreement.</P> <P>On the Blackburrow server, I'm sick and freaking SICK of seeing the same bot groups over and over in Feerrott. One in particular is named "Crape" with his 2 randomly-named bots following him around in tow. He does the same quest - kill spiders - over and over and over. You know the type. Silent, unguilded. Crappy gear. Randomly named bots. Kills the same creature 24/7.  I've had time off this week, so I've been playing at odd hours. 6am. Noon. 9pm. 3am. I play a LOT. No matter when I'm on, he's on, with his bots - killing spiders....I assume doing the repeatable "kill creepers" spider quest for 3 gold.  Why? Because obviously multiple people play the account. To farm. Over and over, the same stuff. I've also seen this jerk in Zek doing the same thing. He'll walk right up in front of you and kill the mob you were about to attack.</P> <P>I opened a CS ticket, and got the "usual" reply from a GM about how they frown on botting and they'd look into it. Do I believe they'll look into it? No, I don't. Why? Because cutting off these botters would be taking money directly out of their pocket. And what business is going to willingly take money out of their own pocket?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Besual]

Guys, as already said there are 2 problems: the ones selling plat / items and the ones buying the stuff. Most farmers are in asisa = block all asian IPs. Most buyers are in the USA = block all U.S. IPs. Now we have much less sellers <b>and</b> buyers. PS: /irony off <div></div>

[firza]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> roarfrost wrote:<BR> <SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iglindor wrote:<BR>" Step 2:    Require the use of a U.S. issued credit card with a U.S. cardholder's address."<BR>That was the most stupid step to stop plat farming i ever read. Seriously.<SPAN></SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P></SPAN><BR>Sorry you don't agree. Seems to make sense to me though. Most EQ2 customers are in the U.S. Most servers are in the U.S. The Devs are in the U.S. SOE is probably incorporated in the U.S.  (The CSRs, well who knows where they are, likely Aisa).<BR><BR>But the biggest reason is that there is much more control over credit card fraud in the U.S. than in say...a few former soviet bloc Eurpoean countries. SOE would be in better position to prosecute credit card fraudsters (who are often associted with online buying and selling) if they only had to deal with U.S. companies. Just eliminating gaming cards would be a great step. I'm not saying this step alone will stop farmers, I'm saying its one part in a plan that would reduce them considerably.<BR><BR>I do commend you on being so dedicated to eliminating botters though. I must admit, after being ignored for so long, I'm not as persistant reporting them anymore.<BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> Hehe, guess what they say about amaricans is true...anything outside of America does not count. <P>(there is no reason to prosecute anyone...they only need to stop selling<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</P> <P>Ever seen a map of the world and thought...Geee, there is more then only America<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by firza on <SPAN class=date_text>12-29-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:08 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by firza on <span class=date_text>12-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:08 AM</span>

[Jgok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> roarfrost wrote:<BR> <P>Step 1:    Block all non U.S. IP ranges from U.S. servers and merge some low population U.S. servers.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Spoof a US IP address, or route through a US-based IP masker</FONT><BR><BR>Step 2:    Require the use of a U.S. issued credit card with a U.S. cardholder's address.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Pay with a Gamecard (cause you know they won't stop selling those), or open an account online with a US bank after renting a post office box (which ain't expensive, lemme tell ya).<BR></FONT><BR>Step 3:    Actually pay attention to players who have been reporting the same bots for weeks or months.<BR>Step 4:    Periodically pose as customers and attempt to buy plat from online companies.<BR>Step 5:    Use a heavy hand and start banning.<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>These are the steps they actually need to do.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The botter I have the biggest problem with on Permafrost? Yeah, he's from the US, or at least someone who has learned how to type in regular English speech, AND uses U.S. idiomatic phrases AND U.S. slang. (BTW, that's a lot harder than most think it is... it's usually pretty obvious when someone from another country is trying to 'sound American,' much like it would be if I were to try to 'sound French').</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The first two things you posted are typical statements from many U.S players. They won't stop the problem, all they'll do is cost SOE money and force a lot of legally playing customers to quit, whether that be by excluding them through the new rules, or making the game economically undesireable through forced exclusion of friends or certain playing areas.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: Just in case it was in doubt, I am, in fact, from the United States.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jgok on <span class=date_text>12-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:14 PM</span>

[Tseri]

<P>Blocking non U.S. people from the U.S. servers is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  I happen to enjoy the diversity of having people from different countries on one server.  Bots aren't such a big problem that I would want to see my Brit friends banned from the server I played on.</P> <P> </P> <P>Nice way to make the rest of us U.S. folks look bad, though, thanks for that.</P>

[dom4]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tseri wrote:<div></div> <p>Blocking non U.S. people from the U.S. servers is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  I happen to enjoy the diversity of having people from different countries on one server.  Bots aren't such a big problem that I would want to see my Brit friends banned from the server I played on.</p> <p>Nice way to make the rest of us U.S. folks look bad, though, thanks for that.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Agree 100%.  I mostly play late night, and the aussies are always there to keep me company.  I'd hate to lose them.  Plus there's the fact that I've run into quite a few plat farmers and so far not a single one has been from anywhere other than america.  I'm sure there's some farmers out there from other countries, but america is by far the worst.</span><div></div>

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>roarfrost wrote:<div></div> Step 1: Block all non U.S. IP ranges from U.S. servers and merge some low population U.S. servers. Step 2: Require the use of a U.S. issued credit card with a U.S. cardholder's address. Step 3: Actually pay attention to players who have been reporting the same bots for weeks or months. Step 4: Periodically pose as customers and attempt to buy plat from online companies. Step 5: Use a heavy hand and start banning. Done. 99% bot problems gone. Can't play with friends from Europe and Australia? Bummer, but I'd take that over bot infested servers any day. Would be nice if there was at least one U.S.-only server that required a U.S. credit card to play on. <hr></blockquote>Hmf, ah yes...this game is for U.S citizens only....Some people in the U.S. just can't seem to think outside of their borders.Farming is a problem, but your solutions will accomplish very little to stop farming from happening, it will only hurt the legitimate non-us players. Currently the U.S servers have many players from outside of the U.S. more than 99% of those are not farmers.

[Supernova17]

Please don't generalize Americans, some people over here are just in fact plain ignorant of the rest of the world. I blame this on poor teaching in the early years, lack of travel around the US and into other countries, having friends in other countries and watching other news networks outside of the US etc. (I sometimes watch the BBC News to see what's up in Europe and I have a massive ammount of friends or people I've played with and still stay in touch with from Canada, Austrailia, Russia, England, Germany and even the occassional gamer I meet from the Middle East has the most interesting stories to tell on what actually is happening over in that corner of our world) Anyway, by inaction Sony, you're showing to the rest of the gaming world that you tolerate botters, macro users, plat farmers and multi-boxing / botter-macro combos in your game which draws more of them in. The best way to stop this is to get these mythicial GMs into the game and keep tabs on heavily reported groups doing suspicious activities. I am a paying customer with 2 accounts, I box a Fury for those times when finding a healer is impossible, and I am sick and tired of putting up with these suspicious players. Currently, I am working on completing the Ashen Order SOLO quests which take alot of repeatable killing quests to gain enough faction to continue the quest line for my Jade Tiger title reward. The kill quests always involve killing 2 sets 5 Sandscrawler goblins (Miners, Sorcerors, Raiders, Defenders, Soliders, Diabolist etc) which are all found in the Sandscrawler area. These mobs are SOLO and yet 2 suspicious GROUPS of players are chain pulling them non-stop. What makes them suspicious? Group 1 * 3 Players, Paladin, Templar, Coercer * Always these 3 in the group * As well as other players and I can tell, they are on nearly 24/7 in PoF * Templar and Coercer are ALWAYS on Auto Follow and stand on top of each other while not moving. * Templar and Coercer are ALWAYS casting spells even if the aren't doing anything. Templar will be casting his Intercession group reactives and the Coercer will be casting Health to Mana conversion. When they are fighting, the Templar and Coercer use the exact same set of nukes precisely timed inbetween the Heals and Mana to Health. * All characters are first name only, and look to be randomly generated. * If the Templar and Coercer get an add on them, the Paladin will never pull it if his back is to the them (this is how they wipe alot) and the Templar will do NOTHING to save himself or the Coercer, and the Coercer does nothing to crowd control the add. It just slowly beats both down and dead until the Paladin gets a clue. * The group of 3 is always running the same circut, chain pulling solo mobs and fighting up to 20 at one time (also how they wipe by taking on more than they can handle) * Any attempts at communication or asking them to please leave certian Goblins up so I can work on my long quest series result in failure or a broken English response. * If you dog them long enough, the Paladin might decide to start training you by pulling his mass of Solo mobs and fighting them on top of you with un-engeged social aggro goblins in the mix. Guy doesn't realize I'm a Monk and can FD or outrun his [Removed for Content] on my Carpet. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> Group 2 * Similar to Group 1 * Made up of the same 6 players: Guardian, Templar, Swashbuckler, Warlock, Illusionist and I know I'm missing one. This group likes to be more elusive and fight up on top of the Sandscrawler cliffs chain pulling the solo mobs you need for the 2nd part of the Ashen Order faction quests (20k-30k status part) * This group actually seems to be run by two players, the Guardian and the Illusionist are usually moving independant of each other. * The bots, Templar, Warlock, Swashy and the one I can't recall atm, are all Auto Follow on different bots or masters so you never see them all standing on top of one another. Usually the Guard has one AF on him, and another AF bot on the one behind the Guard and the same deal with the Illusionist. Looks like a really long strung out line. * The bots get adds like the first group, and they get beat down and do nothing to save themselves. This is more rare in this group as the Guard and Illusionist are seemingly more aware of what is going on and respond quicker. * All have seemingly randomly generated names, and they actually have last names that crack me up. One is XXXXX Eqiiplayer, another is XXXXX Honesteqiiplayer, another is along the lines of XXXXX Ghseqii. I get a kick out of that. * I forgot to mention, both groups are in the same lowbie 3 and 6 man guilds that are bottom of the barrel level and status wise. * This group is actually equipped with some player made gear, looking like they're a bit smarter than your average botter (Guard has Cobalt BP and Ironwood Towershield) but the rest for the most part on all toons is treasured junk drops that are overly common and probably didnt' sell too well. They also are always advertising the sale of Masters and whatever rares they find every 10 seconds in OOC chat. * Any attempts at communication result in broken english again (not necessarily something to judge them by) but in the end they wind up telling me to stay away from them and sometimes train me, which again I have FD or just outrun them <span>:smileytongue:</span> * The bots do not cast except when engaged unlike the other group, but when they do cast, it is the same sets of spells timed exactly the same each time. I'm sure someone will pick apart the above, but frankly these groups DO exist on ALL Live servers. Whether they are multi-boxers using some macro-automated botting scripts, one man botting groups, plat farmers of one type or another, they all ruin the game for us on one level or another. Currently the ones on my server are interfering with every honest player doing the Ashen Order quests (I've talked to other Monks or players in the area doing the same quests as me, they are not very happy either) I play on Kithicor, so if you are on Kithicor as well and are high level, you will know exactly who I'm talking about. I won't name names, but it's glaringly obvious to see them if a GM goes out and spends 30 mins in the Sandscrawler area. <div></div>

[Serindyl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> roarfrost wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>Sorry you don't agree. Seems to make sense to me though. Most EQ2 customers are in the U.S. Most servers are in the U.S. The Devs are in the U.S. SOE is probably incorporated in the U.S.  (The CSRs, well who knows where they are, likely Aisa).<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Perhaps its just a Jack Handy moment for me, but wouldn't it be real funny if the CSRs <EM>were</EM> the botters?  You would say, hey, I want to report a botter.  They would say, sorry for bothering you.  You would say, that's alright, I am asking you the question.  They would say, oh, okay, but be fast, I have some names to kill.

[Attrael]

The best way to deal with the plat farmers would be to have them executed, not just banned.  Most of them are in poverty stricken areas where it is relatively easy and cheap to hire someone to hunt someone down and kill them.  Eventually word will get around that plat farming would be a fatal enterprise and it will cease either through 'attrition' or farmers giving up before they are next to get 'dealt' with.  <span>><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It could work! </span><div></div>

[carlspackler]

<DIV>Haha, Supernova, I knew exactly who you were talking about once I saw those last names. I didn't even need to know you were on Kithicor. I think everyone that plays in T6 knows these guys. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and, not name names, but provide a link in case anyone wants to know about these guys - <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=106&message.id=2777" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=106&message.id=2777</A>. He is refering to the second group that is listed. I don't what happened to the first group. I haven't seen them around in a long time and looks like they have moved down in the list of Top 10 kills on our server. They were replaced by a couple of other plat farming groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kithicor now officially has plat farmers as the top 25 players with the most NPC kills. I see a few others on the list as well and looks like they are moving up on that list. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I going to turn on a little sarcasm here, but I am going to jump in the same boat as the people that always say "the good loot hasn't been found yet" and change it around. "These guys haven't been banned yet, because SOE is tracking every sale they make to ban everyone that has purchased plat from them".  Yeah, right. Okay, sarcasm off. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love what the guys on Innothule did. They had a guild called Oriental Farmers for the Win. Not sure what happened to it, because I no longer see it listed. Maybe they were banned? lol. They would invite all the known plat farmers to the guild for tracking purposes. <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=207&message.id=4113&query.id=0#M4113" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=207&message.id=4113&query.id=0#M4113</A></DIV>

[roarfrost]

<div></div> Its interesting how many people in this thread decided to insult me and call me ignorant, suggest that I am stupid, have never travelled internationally, etc. These forums do have ettiqute rules you know. There is the "I hate the arrogant, ignorant American" foriegn contigent here (they never miss an opportunity to insult), as well as the "Dont judge us all by him, we love you" apolegetic American camp. <b>Yet no one has refuted my arguments</b>. I offer arguments. You can only offer insults. I'll recap: 1. Most botting/farming/selling occurs in Aisa. 2. Credit card fraud is often associated with illegal online buying and selling. 3. Credit Card fraud (and fraud/piracy in general) is more rampent outside the U.S., paritcularly in Aisa and Eastern Europe. 4. It is much easier for U.S. based companies to investigate and prosecute CC fraud in the U.S. than elsewhere. 5. Game cards are the devil. Requiring a major U.S. credit card where the cardholder must have a U.S. address will make it considerably more difficult for the same old group of botters to continue to exist. A few U.S.-only servers would solve most of the botting problems that are <b>primarily </b>caused by foriegners. No one would force you to play on these servers. Will some enterprising botters use U.S. proxies and fraudulent CCs and other sneaky, illegal tactics in order to get on these servers? Sure, I never said it was 100%. But it will cut it down considerably; it will almost eliminate it. Right now, any yahoo in a quansit hut or coffehouse can easily log on and /startbotting. Make it hard for the botters, and most will give up. You people who just throw up your hands and say "Oh well, nothing can be done, they're too smart for us, lets not even try" really make me sick.

[-Arctura-]

<div></div>heres some funny links of bot guilds rosters, and this is just after looking on the Kills list for a good 15 minutes<a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=740103">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=740103</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=454112"></a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=454112">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=454112</a><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=844109" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=844109</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=678103">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=678103</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=1188104"></a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=1014303">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=1014303</a><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=1188104" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=1188104</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=864102"></a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=864102">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=864102</a><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=1449104" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=1449104</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=529207"></a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=529207">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=529207</a><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=996104" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=996104</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=813205"></a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=813205">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=813205</a><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=1084104" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=1084104</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=895109">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=895109</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=889104">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=889104</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=548106">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=548106</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=595106">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=595106</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=517106">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=517106</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=597106">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=597106</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=792202">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=792202</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=858102">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=858102</a><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=418402">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=418402</a><b><font color="#ffffff">Tips on spotting botters using only EQ2players.com data.</font></b><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">What to look for:</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">- No guild website made</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">- Unguilded characters over level 60</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">- level 50+ characters with level 3-4 Artisan</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">- random sounding names, eg. Onaiahoo, Jienoahog, Keroafioeh, Ysiroajaha</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">- guilds have one leader, rest are recruits</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">- guild composed entirely of leaders</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">- guild members have zero status</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">- guild members have identical status, near identical quests completed</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">- guild members have extremely high KVD ratios</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">- guilds have 4-8 members</font><font color="#ccff99"></font><font color="#ccff99">- players with kill-counts all within a good 100 or so, all unguilded and appearing sequentially in the 'Top Kills' list</font><font color="#ff9933"></font><font color="#ffffff"><b>Bot Player Naming</b></font><font color="#ff9933"></font><font color="#ff9933"></font><font color="#ff9933">To help spot a botter, I'll outline here the 3 basic nomenclature traits</font><font color="#ff9933"></font><font color="#ff9933"></font><font color="#ff9933">1. Randomly generated names. Be it, Ducaliaree, Oanohejoo, Kollouers, or whatever</font><font color="#ff9933"></font><font color="#ff9933">2. The NOUN name.  Rushingbrook,  Riversoles, Godsilker, Wellplace... etc. Take any two unrelated nouns, and PRESTO! You have a name =)</font><font color="#ff9933"></font><font color="#ff9933">3. Asian-sounding names.  NOT BEING RACIST HERE, but Ive noticed a large trend that if the botters arent randomly generated names, or nouns, they sound asian.</font><font color="#ff9933"></font><font color="#ff9933"></font><font color="#ff9933">I fully respect the asian countries and peoples of the world, the have amazing and unique cultures and i wish I lived in Tokyo! It just seems so vibrant and happening =) (before anyone starts slinging racist accusations)</font><font color="#ffffff"><b>Bot Guild Naming</b></font><font color="#ffffff"></font><font color="#ff00cc"></font><font color="#ff00cc">Apparently the seem to follow a few basic patterns.</font><font color="#ff00cc"></font><font color="#ff00cc"></font><font color="#ff00cc">1. The multi-word guild name. Be it, Dark rose, Blue moon, Heaven fire, etc., A dragon race of  <-- something like that, was hilarious when i found it lol</font><font color="#ff00cc"></font><font color="#ff00cc">   (NOTE: Usually, (9/10 times, the second word will be uncapitalized)</font><font color="#ff00cc"></font><font color="#ff00cc">2. The gibberish guild name (random letters!)</font><font color="#ff00cc"></font><font color="#ff00cc">3. The mis-spelled guild name (bad typos, blatantly obvious mistakes, poor attempts at english perhaps?)</font><font color="#ff00cc"></font><font color="#ff00cc">4. The nospacesguildname.  Beautifulking , nuff said.</font>In conclusion, Id like to say im NOT being paid to compile all this data and do this simple write-up. I wish either A. people who were paid noticed the things that all of us customers do, or B. Someone gets paid to notice these things and do something about it! =)-Arctura<div></div>

[Lutefisk]

<DIV> <P>Botters DO ruin the purity of the game for everyone.  BUT, you have to remember that the game is NOT produced for our (gamers) benefit. It is produced for the benefit of SOE.  Their benefit is the subscription revenue.  That's all they care about, or should (it is, after all, a business).  SOE's responsibility is to its shareholders, NOT to the gamers who play the game.</P> <P>In simple, straightforward business terms, SOE derives MORE revenue from botters than it loses from frustrated gamers who continue to play the game <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <P>Our frustration and complaints have no negative impact on SOE's business. Banning botters or canceling their accounts would have a much bigger negative impact on their business.  So, since it is not in SOE's interest to actually DO anything to limit botting or farming, if you like EQ2 just go ahead and play as well as you can.  Regard the botters and farmers as part of the opposition terrain. Kinda like an annoying non-lethal mob. And go ahead and post a few things in your store at wildly inflated prices -- chances are one of those plat buyers will come along and pay you 90 gold for something worth 2.  </P> <P>Iglindor, you and your friends are probably, in Jim Croce's terms, "spitting into the wind", with your efforts to document botters and farmers. It's a noble attempt, and I admire your resolve and intent, but I think you are wasting your time.  Let's be brutally honest -- any players who complain about this (or any other) situation and continue to play are essentially saying that even though the problems continue, EQ2 is a better value than anything else they can find.  SOE understands this, and acts accordingly. I'd suspect that botters pay a year at a time, just to make it painful (from a revenue loss standpoint) for SOE to cancel their accounts.  I suppose if a lot of gamers started cancelling accounts for a couple months then came back, then cancelled again or something like that, then SOE might take notice -- but that would mean not playing EQ2 during that time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  So it's kind of an empty threat.</P> <P>EQ2 is a nice game, a reasonable value as entertainment, and full of bugs (as any complex interactive program will be). I know from experience that it takes a LOT of effort to accurately identify, analyze, and fix seemingly "simple" bugs. Few people (if any) quit because a minor bug isn't fixed -- we simply adapt to the problem and continue. Marketing requires that to keep uber players and to be able to attract new players, there be a contuous stream of new content, however buggy.  </P> <P>I am sure that SOE does appreciate all the players who take the time to write serious comments and analysis of the game -- it makes it a lot easier for the developers to make some changes, and guides their research into new techniques and concepts.  Without those players who make committed and detailed comments about the game, many more staff would have to be hired to do the same work.  So while many specific problems and comments will never be addressed directly, I think they will eventually find their way into the hopper for consideration (but remember that even if something is considered, that doesn't mean it will be done).  Sometimes, the answer to a prayer is "no".  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Lutefisk on <span class=date_text>01-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:58 AM</span>

[steelbadger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> roarfrost wrote:<BR> <BR>Its interesting how many people in this thread decided to insult me and call me ignorant, suggest that I am stupid, have never travelled internationally, etc. These forums do have ettiqute rules you know.<BR><BR>There is the "I hate the arrogant, ignorant American" foriegn contigent here (they never miss an opportunity to insult), as well as the "Dont judge us all by him, we love you" apolegetic American camp.<BR><BR><B>Yet no one has refuted my arguments</B>. I offer arguments. You can only offer insults.<BR><BR>I'll recap:<BR><BR>1. Most botting/farming/selling occurs in Aisa.<BR>2. Credit card fraud is often associated with illegal online buying and selling.<BR>3. Credit Card fraud (and fraud/piracy in general) is more rampent outside the U.S., paritcularly in Aisa and Eastern Europe.<BR>4. It is much easier for U.S. based companies to investigate and prosecute CC fraud in the U.S. than elsewhere.<BR>5. Game cards are the devil. Requiring a major U.S. credit card where the cardholder must have a U.S. address will make it considerably more difficult for the same old group of botters to continue to exist.<BR><BR>A few U.S.-only servers would solve most of the botting problems that are <B>primarily </B>caused by foriegners. No one would force you to play on these servers.<BR><BR>Will some enterprising botters use U.S. proxies and fraudulent CCs and other sneaky, illegal tactics in order to get on these servers? Sure, I never said it was 100%. But it will cut it down considerably; it will almost eliminate it. Right now, any yahoo in a quansit hut or coffehouse can easily log on and /startbotting. Make it hard for the botters, and most will give up.<BR><BR>You people who just throw up your hands and say "Oh well, nothing can be done, they're too smart for us, lets not even try" really make me sick.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm not entirely sure that only insults were offered.  However, yes they were a significant congingent of the replies. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1)  correct, however it is very very easy to rout any computer's internet connection through another computer anywhere in the world, as many university students have discovered in their fight against the firewall.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)  not entirely sure of this one.  could you provide a source?  i was under the impression that most people who buy plat are lazy, credit card fraud takes time and effort to be done well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3)  once again i am not entirely sure of your source for this.  The U.S has a <EM>very</EM> large problem with credit card fraud when compared to nations like britain, france and other rich european countries.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4)  forgive me for this misgiving but is not Sony a japanese company?  America has (not so many now) laws that actually make it quite hard to investigate private matters like the credit cards of citizens.  The richer (as compared to eastern bloc) european countries have laws that allow for most things to be carried out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5)  i humbly request that you read your posts again.  They are impressively insular in their thinking.  You give the impression that america is the only civilised country on the planet.  Sorry but yesterday i met a hungarian who speaks better english than most english and american people i have met.  How is that possible by your reasoning?  aren't all europeans still poking each other with spears?  You must open your mind.  The difference between poland and england is almost non existant now.  These "less developed" countries had to achieve a certain level of human and civil rights to be accepted into the EU.  They are, in many cases, safer places to live than america.  A country with quatre of a million gun deaths every year.  The northern hemisphere is made up of a lot of countries.  In all of those countries you can live off McDonalds, if you so wish.  All those books you read that tells you that every single illegitimate bank account in the world is is Switzerland?  Take them with, at least, a pinch of salt. eh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Problems are primarily caused by foreigners?  hardly.  The sellers are there because there are buyers.  Those buyers are primarily in america.  Fact.  eastern europe are well off enough to refrain from farming and selling but poor enough to refrain from buying.  America has a higher population than the rest of europe.  Implying that plat buyers will mostly be in america.  One of the richest countries in the world.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Making it hard for gold sellers will not change things.  They make a tidy profit from their ventures.  Make the act of buying gold risky.  personally i'd not ban the sellers.  i'd find out what acounts do it then follow them, watch for large transfers of funds between them and accounts ith which they were not previously affiliated and then ban the buyer.  Make the news get around.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its like drugs.  The cause of the drug problem is the demand.  removing suppy does not help this, it provides only a very brief respite, soon a new company will notice the gap and try to take advantage of it.  for the botters it is business.  if that business is not making money then they will not do it.  If you work to discourage buyers of gold then the supply will diminish with it.  and with it, the botters and farmers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was a bit longer than i'd thought...  please read it all. :smileywink:</DIV>

[electricninjasex]

<span><blockquote><hr>roarfrost wrote:<div></div> <b>Yet no one has refuted my arguments</b>. I offer arguments. You can only offer insults. I'll recap: 1. Most botting/farming/selling occurs in Aisa. 2. Credit card fraud is often associated with illegal online buying and selling. 3. Credit Card fraud (and fraud/piracy in general) is more rampent outside the U.S., paritcularly in Aisa and Eastern Europe. 4. It is much easier for U.S. based companies to investigate and prosecute CC fraud in the U.S. than elsewhere. 5. Game cards are the devil. Requiring a major U.S. credit card where the cardholder must have a U.S. address will make it considerably more difficult for the same old group of botters to continue to exist. A few U.S.-only servers would solve most of the botting problems that are <b>primarily </b>caused by foriegners. No one would force you to play on these servers. Will some enterprising botters use U.S. proxies and fraudulent CCs and other sneaky, illegal tactics in order to get on these servers? Sure, I never said it was 100%. But it will cut it down considerably; it will almost eliminate it. Right now, any yahoo in a quansit hut or coffehouse can easily log on and /startbotting. Make it hard for the botters, and most will give up.<hr></blockquote></span>I second this in its entirety. Roarfrost is right on the money.

[Pucswift]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Firamas wrote:<BR>Roarfrost wrote:<BR><I><BR>"Step 1:    Block all non U.S. IP ranges from U.S. servers and merge some low population U.S. servers."</I><BR><BR>As an American currently living in Japan (military) and an EQ player since release in 1999, I would find this solution to be about the most offensive thing Sony could do to me as a customer.  Not only would I cancel my subscription immediately, I would seek out as many public forums as I could in which to voice my displeasure at the level of customer service I had received.  Any other person in my situation, any European, ANY legitimate non-US-resident English speaking person would scream bloody murder at this.  Before making suggestions on how to fix a problem, <B>think about what you are saying.</B><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I dont like that solution either.  My fiancee's dad (which got me playing eq2) is on a air force base in korea and we play together alot and if that happened.. well that would all end.... <BR>

[ginfress]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> electricninjasex wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> roarfrost wrote:<BR> <BR><B>Yet no one has refuted my arguments</B>. I offer arguments. You can only offer insults.<BR><BR>I'll recap:<BR><BR>1. Most botting/farming/selling occurs in Aisa.<BR>2. Credit card fraud is often associated with illegal online buying and selling.<BR>3. Credit Card fraud (and fraud/piracy in general) is more rampent outside the U.S., paritcularly in Aisa and Eastern Europe.<BR>4. It is much easier for U.S. based companies to investigate and prosecute CC fraud in the U.S. than elsewhere.<BR>5. Game cards are the devil. Requiring a major U.S. credit card where the cardholder must have a U.S. address will make it considerably more difficult for the same old group of botters to continue to exist.<BR><BR>A few U.S.-only servers would solve most of the botting problems that are <B>primarily </B>caused by foriegners. No one would force you to play on these servers.<BR><BR>Will some enterprising botters use U.S. proxies and fraudulent CCs and other sneaky, illegal tactics in order to get on these servers? Sure, I never said it was 100%. But it will cut it down considerably; it will almost eliminate it. Right now, any yahoo in a quansit hut or coffehouse can easily log on and /startbotting. Make it hard for the botters, and most will give up.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN>I second this in its entirety. Roarfrost is right on the money.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Build a wall around your country, that would make it for the better for the rest of the world <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />