On the Scalability of Damage Mitigation (Crusader focused)

[Ceruline]

<DIV> <P>Thinking about the difference between the ability of a SK to mitigate damage and a Warrior subclass to mitigate damage I noticed that one of the problems we have is that our damage mitigation mechanism does not scale nearly as well as that of either the Warrior or the Brawler subclasses. </P> <P>Generally speaking, damage is mitigated by tank classes in the following ways: (Note: I'm using the verb mitigate to denote the total reduction in incoming damage that a class can cause through its skills - not specifically physical or other resists) </P> <P>Physical Mitigation </P> <P>Avoidance </P> <P>Self Healing </P> <P>Let's use an example based on a generic encounter to see how this works - this is a control case, so the mitigation and avoidance percentages are set to let each class mitigate the same overall amount of damage so we can see how it scales later. Note that these *aren't* real world numbers, but are intended purely to show what happens when that type of damage mitigation is scaled. </P> <P>Physical mitigation based: 70% physical mitigation, 50% avoidance. Out of 10,000 incoming damage within a minute's time, 50% will be avoided, leaving 5,000 points, and 70% of that will be mitigated, leaving 1,500 points of damage taken out of 10k. That's an overall mitigation of 85%</P> <P>Avoidance based: 80% avoidance, 25% mitigation. Out of 10,000 incoming damage within a minute's time, 80% will be avoided, leaving 2000 points, and 25% of that (500) will be mitigated, leaving 1500 points of damage taken. Again, an overall mitigation of 85%.</P> <P>Heal based: 40% avoidance, 60% mitigation. Out of 10,000 incoming damage within a minute's time, 40% will be avoided, leaving 6,000 damage. Of this, 3,600 points will be mitigated, leaving 2,400 points of damage. However, the Crusader also can heal himself for 900 points every minute, leaving the net impact on his health within that timeframe at 1,500 points of damage - or 85% overall mitigation.</P> <P>This looks good - the healing offsets the lesser mitigation and avoidance and lets the Crusader perform at the same level as an equivalent avoidance or mitigation based tank. </P> <P>So what happens in a situation where that damage is scaled sharply upwards - a raid type situation where instead of taking 10,000 damage in a minute, the mob is causing 100,000 damage in a minute: </P> <P>Physical Mitigation: 50% avoided, leaving 50k. 70% of that 50k is mitigated, leaving 15k. 85% mitigation.</P> <P>Avoidance Based: 80% avoided, leaving 20k. 25% of that 20k is mitigated, leaving 15k. Still 85% mitigation.</P> <P>Heal Based: 40% avoided, leaving 60k. 60% of that is mitigated, leaving 24k. However, the Crusader can still heal themself for 900 points each minute leavin 23.1k... or 76.9% mitigation.</P> <P>The % based methods of mitigating damage (physical mitigation and avoidance) easily outperform the fixed value heals as we increase the amount of damage that must be mitigated within a period.</P> <P>If we were to scale the damage down, we'd see things getting unbalanced again - this time with the fixed value heals coming out well ahead. </P> <P>So let's bring this into EQ2 terms, as the numbers above are genericized to the extreme to illustrate the concept. </P> <P>As shown above, a system which relies upon a fixed value heal to offset a discrepency in % based mitigation or avoidance is not going to scale well - and I think this is the root of many of our damage mitigation problems when compared to a similarly equipped Guardian or Berserker - we're balanced for single group content with our lifetaps and heals, to be more or less equivalent to either of the two other plate classes in terms of damage mitigation. Because of this, we don't scale up very well to raid content, as our lifetaps start contributing less and less to our ability to mitigate damage. Also because of this, we solo VERY well - as our lifetaps start contributing more and more to our ability to mitigate damage. </P> <P>This is a problem - because if we adjust either mitigation, avoidance, or healing capacity to bring us in line with the other plate tanks in raid situations, we're obviously going to be overpowered within group or solo contexts. </P> <P>So what's the solution? Well, we need a mechanic which will scale properly. Here's my proposal: </P> <P>If we look at encounters very generically, there are two things which will always scale as the difficulty of the encounter grows - incoming damage, and outgoing damage. Because of this, the SK's ability to mitigate incoming damage through healing needs to be tied either to the amount of incoming damage to the SK, or the amount of outgoing damage towards a target. Now, we could simply tie a reactive lifetap amount to the magnitude of the incoming damage stream, but I don't think that's very in character for a Shadowknight. </P> <P>This leaves outgoing damage. Tying the overall mitigation capacity of a Shadowknight to the damage output stream of the raid - or more specifically, the incoming damage stream of the target - makes a lot of sense from an RP perspective. What Shadowknight wouldn't draw additional strength from the enemy's pain? </P> <P>Consider the following proposed spell: </P> <P>Targeted enemy </P> <P>xxxx power </P> <P>2s cast </P> <P>10s recast </P> <P>1 concentration </P> <P>Lasts until cancelled.</P> <P>While this spell is maintained, xx% of the damage which the target receives is returned to the caster as health.</P> <P>If we had a lifetap structured in this manner (And I have no clue what the % would need to be to keep things balanced - not all that high), then we'd have a very scalable lifetap based mitigation mechanic - which is directly tied to the offensive output of the group or raid - a situation which well suits the style of a Shadowknight. (A Pally equivalent would logically scale based either on incoming damage or incoming heals - which would make sense for that class)</P> <P>An interesting consequence of the existence of such a skill would be that SK's could become exceptional tanks for very offensively oriented raids in which this sort of mitigation would become much more significant.</P> <P>If we were to be given such a skill, our existing lifetaps would likely need to take a hit for balance to be maintained - but we'd finally be able to scale well, instead of being much more effective solo than we are group tanking, and much more effective group tanking than we are raid tanking.</P></DIV>

[Joren_Wolfheart]

I enjoy the thought of a paladin's tanking being tied to the amount of damage that is incoming to the group.  As the battle starts to look dim, they look to the heavens and cry out for help from the Gods, who grant them the ability to hold on just a little while longer.  Great roleplaying value <span>:smileyhappy:</span>I love my paladin, but have just been resigned to never being able to tank a raid instance.  Maybe a few of the solo epics around, but never any of the big stuff.  I think a proposed change to the way we take/heal damage would be a big help in that regard.<div></div>

[Sunrayn]

<DIV>What you are asking for is to be equal to other fighters in regards to tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which is great but...If what you propose is instituted, you will, in effect, become the overall best tank in every circumstance; without giving up anything in return.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A guardian, the 'accepted' premier raid tank, has only tanking abilities.  No heals, no wards, dismal DPS, no real utility.</DIV> <DIV>What would the guardian, or any other fighter,  recieve in return for pally/SK aquiring 'equal mitigation'?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, you have less 'mitigation' but, you have wards and heals to *offset* that deficiency.  I dont think your wards and heals were ever meant to *equal* out the playing field between warriors and...hybrids...for lack of a better term.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A few months ago, monks and bruisers asked for the same thing, equal tanking but different.  They had their defenses boosted to bring them closer to plate wearer's ability to tank.  They lost nothing in DPS or Utility making them the premier 'group tank'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is a reason that guardians are the go-to tank for raids, we have nothing else to offer.</DIV>

[Ceruline]

<DIV>I think you're misconstruing it slightly - the overall balance effect - who is the 'best' tank - is a function of the actual %s fed into that skill.  I'm not interested in total equality - in fact, with the proposed skill, total equality is impossible, since the defensive capability of the tank would be based on such different things.  My goal with this suggestion is viability in a raid MT role for crusaders (A role which all fighter subs should be able to handle when configured properly), and for this to be achieved in a manner which is both unique to each crusader subclass and distinct from the other tanking classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How over/underpowered it would be is a function of the specific parameters of the skill, and I am not proposing any specific parameters - without a much larger data pool than I have access to, it's impossible to come up with realistic numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And why should other classes need to receive something in exchange for a tweak that would bring the Crusader subs to a balance point within raids that they were intended to be at all along?  Guardians would still be able to fill a traditional tank role better than a SK or Pally - but it wouldn't be the huge disparity in capability that it is today (At least when gear isn't pushing you against the stat, mit, and skill caps - which only happens when you're talking about Live type raid guilds where everyone is in full Fabled anyway)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The intent here is to make the Crusader skillsets scale more smoothly (Right now we run as phenomenal solo, as good a group MT as anyone else, and only good for mediocre DPS and buffs in a raid) because as my original post points out there are issues with the way that fixed value heals scale.  This is a fix for that, and would do absolutely nothing towards bringing Guardians out of the top spot as raid tanks, unless the skill itself were poorly balanced.  What it would do is provide more range for creativity in tactics, as there would then be 4 raid viable plate tank classes rather than just two.  (And depending on who you ask, 2 viable avoidance tanks - but I have roughly zero familiarity with brawler balance issues, so I'm avoiding using them as a comparison point)</DIV>

[Ceruline]

<DIV>I think you're misconstruing it slightly - the overall balance effect - who is the 'best' tank - is a function of the actual %s fed into that skill.  I'm not interested in total equality - in fact, with the proposed skill, total equality is impossible, since the defensive capability of the tank would be based on such different things.  My goal with this suggestion is viability in a raid MT role for crusaders (A role which all fighter subs should be able to handle when configured properly), and for this to be achieved in a manner which is both unique to each crusader subclass and distinct from the other tanking classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How over/underpowered it would be is a function of the specific parameters of the skill, and I am not proposing any specific parameters - without a much larger data pool than I have access to, it's impossible to come up with realistic numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And why should other classes need to receive something in exchange for a tweak that would bring the Crusader subs to a balance point within raids that they were intended to be at all along?  Guardians would still be able to fill a traditional tank role better than a SK or Pally - but it wouldn't be the huge disparity in capability that it is today (At least when gear isn't pushing you against the stat, mit, and skill caps - which only happens when you're talking about Live type raid guilds where everyone is in full Fabled anyway)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The intent here is to make the Crusader skillsets scale more smoothly (Right now we run as phenomenal solo, as good a group MT as anyone else, and only good for mediocre DPS and buffs in a raid) because as my original post points out there are issues with the way that fixed value heals scale.  This is a fix for that, and would do absolutely nothing towards bringing Guardians out of the top spot as raid tanks, unless the skill itself were poorly balanced.  What it would do is provide more range for creativity in tactics, as there would then be 4 raid viable plate tank classes rather than just two.  (And depending on who you ask, 2 viable avoidance tanks - but I have roughly zero familiarity with brawler balance issues, so I'm avoiding using them as a comparison point)</DIV>

[Sunrayn]

<DIV>The problem I see is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are too [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] many tank classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The tanks should be, guardian, pally, SK. Thats it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A beserker should be a light tank.  Chain or leather, dual wielding, charging down the gates of hell to kill the devil as fast as he can because a few hits and he drops.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Avoidance tanks? what the hell is an 'avoidance tank'?  If you wear pajamas, get yer butt behind the mob and ninja kick the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing.  You want to 'avoid' something, dodge Darathar's tail.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As long as there are 6 tank classes, only one is going to be happy.  Five of them are going to be doing a third rate job in a raid that can be better filled by the class they are trying to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Three tanks are far easier to balance against each other than six are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*edit* Gah, replace the haxx0red stuff with something that is used to stop water and create a lake, then put an 'n' after it  =D</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sunrayn on <span class=date_text>05-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:56 PM</span>

[Ceruline]

<DIV>Balancing all 6 fighter classes to be capable main tanks isn't that hard of a problem.  We're not talking here about making them all equal - just all able to manage the task at hand.  Right now, I'd say that all six are capable of MTing group content, but that breaks down when you move onto raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(And actually, if we're excluding classes from being primarily tanks, the first one I'd eliminate, even before Zerkers, is the Shadowknight.  We're the one that does the hitting, not the one that gets hit.  It's just not what we're into!)</DIV>

[Sunrayn]

<P>In regards to pally tanking raid mobs, check out this thread:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=24973" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=24973</A></P> <P>All fighter classes are currently tanking raid mobs, IF there isnt a guardian handy.  Its not that others *cant* tank.</P>

[Ceruline]

As with everything - it depends.  When the gear quality and buffs are such that the fighter subs are all running up against the stat and skill caps, then the difference between a guardian and a shadowknight is not nearly so great as when we're talking about a more middling level of gear where both are struggling to meet stat and skill caps - assuming equal gear, a guardian can come much closer to the mitigation cap and capped avoidance skills than a Shadowknight can.The thing is - Shadowknights and Paladins SHOULDN'T be trying to compete with guardians and zerkers in terms of mitigation and avoidance.  We should clearly trail in those respects, and make up the difference in a way that is consistant with the concepts of our classes.  The way that tanks should be played should not become *more generic* as we take on harder and harder encounters, but that is how it is currently structured.<div></div>

[Dyeana]

<P>With the last balancing shortly before KoS, it seemed pretty obvious that the goal was back to the "Holy" trinity of EQ1  - Guardian - Templar - Shaman.  It manifested itself in many other classes being dropped or no longer viable to play except for those who really wanted to play that particular class.  I honestly doubt SoE will rebalance to even it out a bit as it would run counter productive to their last balance.  Pity, as I would like to see a more balancing in raids vice the same old classes which are becoming more vital and necessary for the raid to susceed.</P> <P> </P> <P>Dye</P>