You killed our Duo... again :(

[Kwoung]

<DIV>Well, I could have sworn I read that you made mobs give more XP.. and it has been a while since I was able to get some, I I do remember destinctly that Zindi and I were getting .5% per group easily when we hit 50. Well, seems like the best it gets now with anything we are capable of killing is .1%.. and no offence guys, but that bites. Also, we can no longer duo CT killing yard trash trying to get a named to pop for her Screaming Mace quest, which was pretty much the final straw. It is absolutely NO FUN when we can not even do the only quest we have intrest in completing right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like many of my posts before plainly stated, you managed to suck the fun right out of the game for us during this wonderful "combat revamp" of yours. I just logged in frustration and am going to go play a game that is fun. It may not be as challanging, frustrating and require 4 more of my friends just to play, but it is fun for my wife and I and we can feel like we are powerful heros in a fantasy land, not a couple of noobs getting our azzes kicked by yard trash like you have done to us in EQ2. </DIV>

[Zindicatt]

<DIV>Yeah really, this is what you have done to our game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exp - .1% for a group of 46.  Wow, what a grind we will have.</DIV> <DIV>Loot - any named kick our behinds.  Even a DoF mob.  We tried 3 times tonight on a named in Sinking Sands tonight but gave up in the end</DIV> <DIV>Quest - The only quest I care about completing is not duo'able.  And I hate to drag a group for this long boring camp.</DIV> <DIV>Decorating my house - right for a while this is fun, until you break the T5 Rare Sconces. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not to mention Defiler is completely failure by implementation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really want to like EQII.  I don't know what to say now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Proudfoot]

<span><blockquote>Zindicatt wrote:<div></div>  <div>I really want to like EQII.  I don't know what to say now. </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>My wife and I are in that same boat. Casual duo's have been nuked. Not much else I can say about it.</span><div></div>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, I could have sworn I read that you made mobs give more XP.. and it has been a while since I was able to get some, I I do remember destinctly that Zindi and I were getting .5% per group easily when we hit 50. Well, seems like the best it gets now with anything we are capable of killing is .1%.. and no offence guys, but that bites. Also, we can no longer duo CT killing yard trash trying to get a named to pop for her Screaming Mace quest, which was pretty much the final straw. It is absolutely NO FUN when we can not even do the only quest we have intrest in completing right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like many of my posts before plainly stated, you managed to suck the fun right out of the game for us during this wonderful "combat revamp" of yours. I just logged in frustration and am going to go play a game that is fun. It may not be as challanging, frustrating and require 4 more of my friends just to play, but it is fun for my wife and I and we can feel like we are powerful heros in a fantasy land, not a couple of noobs getting our azzes kicked by yard trash like you have done to us in EQ2. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'll respond here, though it could just as easily be in the thread you started on the public board.</P> <P>I guess it's a matter of expectations. CT is a group zone. The mobs at the entrance are heroic, many of them being multi-mob encounters. Yes, they are level 40 and above, but that no longer makes them trivial for a level 50. I don't recall the particulars of your gear or abilities, so I have no idea whether you are well geared or modestly geared. There may well be tactics that allow you to succeed in such a situation, but I'm not familiar enough with your class to say that for sure.</P> <P>What I did do was create a level 50 human wizard and try it myself. I was in handcrafted level 40 gear with Apprentice IV spells. Now I should say I have never played a wizard before, so my attempts to organize my hotbars were a bit sketchy. I took on the roaming lizard in CT a few times and ended up dying to him each time.</P> <P>Then I went to Sinking Sands and practiced a while on the level 46-47 crocs and dervs. I was very successful there, and once I figured out my spells a bit better I was often killing them before they could lay a finger on me.</P> <P>Next I went to Pillars of Flame and took on level 50 no-arrow singles (goblins and scorpions). Sometimes they could get to me, but mostly I could burn them down before that. And I could do it a lot faster than I could kill one on my bruiser.</P> <P>To me, that felt pretty cool. I felt like a badass, because I could kill some stuff without getting a scratch on me (not at all what I'm used to). But if that doesn't make you feel like a hero because there is no "heroic" tag on them, then that is absolutely a matter of perception which I can't argue with.</P> <P>Sure, we could artificially change the con system to anything we wanted. We could mark all solo mobs as heroic, and heroic as epic, and turn the green cons to orange if that was our desire. But while that might satisfy perception, it wouldn't change the reality of the numbers.</P> <P>I regret if this is a shift in gameplay that you can't tolerate. These are big changes, no question about it. But I assure you there is no shortage of content for a soloer or duo in the game at level 50. Mage/priest is not the typical combo and may not fare well against green heroics; I haven't played such a duo myself to say for certain, nor do I know what tactics you typically use. But I wouldn't be surprised if there are places and situations where it could be done.</P>

[Kwoung]

<P>Ok, Zin and I have adapted yet again (sheesh we have been having to do that a lot lately) anyways, we are able to kill triple up heroic mobs up to level 47 with realative ease again when we choose the right ones. I guess my big gripe is, there is no room for error, which is what allowed us to duo CT previously. We tried many areas the other day and adds would kill us, and doing solo mobs as a dou, well the XP gain is terrible, to put it nicely.</P> <P>Anyhow, sorry for the mostly rant thread, I was pretty upset the other day after numerous deaths.. but my other (less ranty) thread in the public board stands, I do like to feel heroic and you are correct, it is 100% psychological and it is all about perceptions. I think you guys could do a lot better in the making players feel powerful and heroic area without compromising the game. Some of it is mob cons (leave the mob level off and just mark them easy med, hard, etc), some is the naming your choose "Heroic" for mobs and for stuff that is really green / almost grey... that should be a breeze to kill regardless of heroic or not. How can anyone finish most quests now if even when green mobs are meant to trash you?</P> <P>Anyways, appologies again, but it has been a long time since I experienced that level of frustration in a "game" and it got to me.</P> <P>Edit: BTW, hunting now is still considerably less fun than before, as we have a lot less options available on how we can kill.</P> <p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:02 PM</span>

[Zindicatt]

<P>Thanks for the reply, Moorgard.  Today I took the time to read almost all the dev's responses to combat changes, and now I read yours (and thank you so much for taking the time to play the game) and my conclusion is: Our experience is intended.  We are not supposed to be able to kill ^^^ without careful planning and luck (in the sense that no roaming mobs are allowed), regardless of cons.  I think that's fine.  However, since no more rewards have come from the game which has become harder and riskier, then apparently it is a nerf (I hate to use this term).  What I don't recall or understand is why?  From all that I read, you guys had problems with raid groups killing orange and red epics without breaking a sweat.  You never had problems with soloers and duo'ers who are out there trying to get some experience, do some quests, get some coins.  We were pretty happy doing that.  After the change, the fun factor for us definite has gone down.  ...</P> <P>   </P>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zindicatt wrote:<BR> <P>However, since no more rewards have come from the game which has become harder and riskier, then apparently it is a nerf (I hate to use this term).  What I don't recall or understand is why?  <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We did increase experience at all levels by a sizeable amount. I will double check to make sure the bonus was applied to Test as well. The double XP is only applied below level 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm pleased to hear you folks are adapting. Please tell a friend. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>We did increase experience at all levels by a sizeable amount. I will double check to make sure the bonus was applied to Test as well. The double XP is only applied below level 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm pleased to hear you folks are adapting. Please tell a friend. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Well we are 50, so no bonus I guess, but here is how we do: Pre-Changes as I noted above we got .5% per blue con heroic encounter whether that was a 1x ^^^, 2x ^^ or 3x ^. Post patch we get .4 - .5% from 1x ^^^, both the other two only give .1% XP, which is a 4-5x drop in XP for those mobs. I will double check it tonight to make sure, but that is one of the things that prompted my original post, was the severe drop in XP gain off the con of mobs we normally hunt.</DIV>

[Proudfoot]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote: <p>Then I went to Sinking Sands and practiced a while on the level 46-47 crocs and dervs. I was very successful there, and once I figured out my spells a bit better I was often killing them before they could lay a finger on me.</p> <p>Next I went to Pillars of Flame and took on level 50 no-arrow singles (goblins and scorpions). Sometimes they could get to me, but mostly I could burn them down before that. And I could do it a lot faster than I could kill one on my bruiser.</p><hr></blockquote>I'd like to point out some observations from those playing Desert of Flames, those mobs are not as difficult as the old world mobs. People can solo the 48++ Heroics where they cannot take on a 45++ Heroic in the old world. Thought I'd point this out, as you seem to have had the same issue (CT being old world).</span><div></div>

[Edowen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zindicatt wrote:<BR> <P>However, since no more rewards have come from the game which has become harder and riskier, then apparently it is a nerf (I hate to use this term).  What I don't recall or understand is why?  <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We did increase experience at all levels by a sizeable amount. I will double check to make sure the bonus was applied to Test as well. The double XP is only applied below level 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm pleased to hear you folks are adapting. Please tell a friend. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>When you are checking the DoF bonus, could you please take a look at the normal experience bonus for Test?  This is the bonus that went into effect back in May or so.  We lost it a few weeks ago due to changes you folks were making in the underlying code, and while the /toggle_bonus_exp command is back, there are some folks who believe the across-the-board 50% bonus is not.  Given the variations in mobs and zones and all the changes that have been going on, I don't think there is any way for any of us players on Test to get a definitive answer short of asking SoE.</P> <P>Thanks in advance,</P> <P>Edowen</P> <P>P.S. My monk can solo pretty well now.  Unfortunately she seems to have morphed into a dps machine, more like a scout class than what she was pre-revamp.  She is beating mobs by doing more damage faster instead of not getting hit.  In fact, I ran some parses in a group the other day and she was usually the highest dps in the group, even better than our scout (a troubadour, I'll admit).  I won't say that she is not fun to play, but the successful play style is nothing like I ever imagined a monk would be.  Oh and yes, part of the dps output is by my design, when I saw how avoidance and mitigation had been slashed, and the damage she was taking, in the forced respec I went with damage-dealing Master IIs and that has been serving me well.<BR></P>

[Kwoung]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edowen wrote:<BR> <P>P.S. My monk can solo pretty well now.  Unfortunately she seems to have morphed into a dps machine, more like a scout class than what she was pre-revamp.  She is beating mobs by doing more damage faster instead of not getting hit.  In fact, I ran some parses in a group the other day and she was usually the highest dps in the group, even better than our scout (a troubadour, I'll admit). <BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><A href="http://www.eq2test.com/download.php?id=68" target=_blank>http://www.eq2test.com/download.php?id=68</A></P> <P>Is the link to our Epic encounter last night, take a look at Kylie, who out DPSed everyone by a ton.</P></DIV>

[Edowen]

<P>The parses to which I referred were for a single group, not the raid.  Irgul's dps is much higher in a short fight, where she can run through her CAs one right after the other and the mob is dead before she is done or shortly thereafter.  In a long battle I use a different style, in which I conserve power to make it last the entire battle.</P> <P>Edowen</P>

[goboy]

<P>Moorgard,</P> <P>I know I have said this before, but let me restate it.  SOE should stop and look at what people claim is fun vs. how SOE wants the game to play.  Fun is not defined by what you cannot do, it is defined by what you can do.  Forcing people to xp on white/blue mobs is not fun.  There is a simple explanation for this - most people want to play a character that is heroic.  Killing mobs your level does not feel heroic.  </P> <P>Now, I understand the power and hp of a mob are relative to whatever they are programmed for.  Saying that, people have an expectation of what they can or think they should be able to do.  Making content impossible to solo or group only adds frustration if the player base feels it is content they should be able to handle.  </P> <P>EQ2 is not new, most of the established players have an idea of what they like.  Please don't ignore them for the sake of some vision of how the game should be played.  Soloing heroic mobs with little risk of dying was plain broken - however, most of us feel that we should have better then an even chance against green to low blue heroic mobs.  Are we wrong?  Only time will tell. </P>

[Zindicatt]

<P>Thanks for the reply again, Moorgard.  Apparently we are not in the position to enjoy this bonus since we are lvl 50.</P> <P>There is one thing though I'd like you to still look into.  While the combat changes have made group hunting more fun, Solo'ers and Duo'ers in general experience the most traumatic disruptions to their gameplay.  Whenever we added a tank-type to our group, our hunting becomes fun again.  In fact, comparing to what it used to be, it is indeed more fun.  This is why: Before the combat revamp, whenever I had a tank in the group, I did not have to heal or ward much at all.  It was indeed too much of a breeze for us, especially for me, the healer.  After the revamp, I actually have to pay attention and spend most of my time healing the tank.  Sometimes we can even have accidents where the mob hit too hard and got the tank down to orange and red.  It is more challenging now in a positive way.</P> <P>The problem comes when we duo, or solo.   Killing mobs that were rewarding to kill (again by that I mean one of the following: Decent experience, loots that are possible upgrades, or killings that advance us in a quest that is not grey) was challenging but fun.  Kwoung and I had to test things out, come up with tactics that work with our duo.  An occasional death actually increaded the excitement of the hunt.  And mind you too: We already had to pick our targets very carefully.</P> <P>After the revamp, most of what we used to be able to do became impossible.  We are back to square one trying to figure out what we can actually do.  Our target range has vastly shrunk.  Well, honestly, we do find grouping with other poeple a lot  more rewarding now.  But to my memory, that was not what EQII's direction.  EQII was claimed to be less group dependent on grouping than EQ.  I liked it the way before really.  I will adept.  But I would appreciate if you guys actually look into this issue.</P> <P>And by the way I am definitely not a lone voice about this.   </P> <P> </P>

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zindicatt wrote:<p>Thanks for the reply again, Moorgard.  Apparently we are not in the position to enjoy this bonus since we are lvl 50.</p> <p>There is one thing though I'd like you to still look into.  While the combat changes have made group hunting more fun, Solo'ers and Duo'ers in general experience the most traumatic disruptions to their gameplay.  Whenever we added a tank-type to our group, our hunting becomes fun again.  In fact, comparing to what it used to be, it is indeed more fun.  This is why: Before the combat revamp, whenever I had a tank in the group, I did not have to heal or ward much at all.  It was indeed too much of a breeze for us, especially for me, the healer.  After the revamp, I actually have to pay attention and spend most of my time healing the tank.  Sometimes we can even have accidents where the mob hit too hard and got the tank down to orange and red.  It is more challenging now in a positive way.</p> <p>The problem comes when we duo, or solo.   Killing mobs that were rewarding to kill (again by that I mean one of the following: Decent experience, loots that are possible upgrades, or killings that advance us in a quest that is not grey) was challenging but fun.  Kwoung and I had to test things out, come up with tactics that work with our duo.  An occasional death actually increaded the excitement of the hunt.  And mind you too: We already had to pick our targets very carefully.</p> <p>After the revamp, most of what we used to be able to do became impossible.  We are back to square one trying to figure out what we can actually do.  Our target range has vastly shrunk.  Well, honestly, we do find grouping with other poeple a lot  more rewarding now.  But to my memory, that was not what EQII's direction.  EQII was claimed to be less group dependent on grouping than EQ.  I liked it the way before really.  I will adept.  But I would appreciate if you guys actually look into this issue.</p> <p>And by the way I am definitely not a lone voice about this.    </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> /agree.  Soloing is pretty stinky now.  I did have a good time by myself in the Clefts of Rujark with all those 50 - 52 solo mobs... until I discovered the hard way that they repop.  Oops, hehe.  I haven't played Kella since because she's got a shard somewhere that I can't remember and can't get back to, and I need the 72 hours to expire. Different creatures present different challenges, and I'm not sure I understand it.  Blue mobs in EF or on the beach of the Sinking Sands take me down to orange pretty consistently.  (I'm thinking of caimans here.)  White and yellow mobs in the Clefts of Rujark take me down to orange pretty consistently.  Named mobs of any level over 45 wipe the floor with me in seconds, even if they're solo-designated.  And sure, over time I'll develop a feel for what I can and can't do, and therefore what I should and shouldn't try, but so far it seems pretty patchy. And for what it's worth, I lost my duo. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  We can only really afford one MMORPG subscription per household member, and he was sick of everything going on here and enjoying the heck out of his City of Villains beta, so that's where that stands.  At least I can have his stuff... on a live server, I'd be able to sell it for Fabled stuff that might make me able to solo more mobs.</span><div></div>

[Grimsore]

Leave the game one way -groups are boring and soloing is fun. Change it -soloing is boring and groups are fun. The question becomes, how do you make it were both soloing and groups are fun? Not to mention balance it so two players grouped can kill heroic since they could have killed solo alone.I have no answer and clearly SOE doesn't either or they would do just that. I do believe this is the exact reason they created solo and heroic tabbed mobs. The idea was simply a solo mob would be challenging for solo and heroic for group. As stated many times, solo and groups do have tons of targets they can kill. Perhaps this theory simply does not work based sorely on peoples perceptions of fun.I can say that grouping still seems to easy and soloing to hard for SOME classes. Ie. Why are level 50 groups killing level 59 heroics...whats the next ten levels going to give them when they can pretty much already take the max mobs? Hey, I'm rambling now.