Coercer combat change feedback

[WuphonsReach]

(posted here because I get too much static for posting stuff like this in the open forums)<b>Background</b>: (a.k.a. why I liked playing a coercer earlier in the week, prior to the changes)On Test, I play as a level 24/25 coercer (Snaxk). Handcrafted gear, app4s or adept1s for most spells. Pair of rare hex dolls, and an imbued wand. (Nothing really special about his gear other then the hex dolls.) This is my first enchanter character in EQ2, although I played frequently with enchanters in EQ1. So I understand the basic idea, but have developed my own play style over the past few weeks of soloing/grouping from 20-24.Soloing @ 24 (pre-change):- not the most exciting, a lot of root rotting (using DoTs) combined with stunning/stifling when root breaks- at 24, I had *2* mez lines, both of which lasted around 40-60 seconds, allowing me to take on multi-mob solo encounters- when it goes badly, I get beat to within an inch of my life- xp is slow, but steady, and pre-change coercers are definitley not DPS classesGrouping @ 24 (pre-change):- this is where the class shone- 2 mez lines, a short-duration stun, a long-duration stun, a stifle, plus 2 DoT lines, plus our reactive AoE that grants a thought stone, plus haste buff and mana regen- with those tools, I could either go defensive (mez/stun/stifle to reduce incoming damage) to help the healer stay ahead of burst damage, or go offensive (DoTs/nukes)- the challenge was in balancing offense/defense, killing the mobs quickly, but keeping everyone alive... and was a lot of fun- when things got messy, crazy, and ugly... that's when a coercer goes to work, turning chaos into order, and I had the most enjoyment from the class- so I place a very high value on being able to turn a losing battle into a winning one, including locking mobs down (had 3 mobs mezzed at one point on Monday) so that the healer could rez the tank and rebuffBasically, on Monday, in a trio with a 23 monk and a 23 warden (and my 24 coercer), I was feeling powerful but not overpowered. We were doing the heroic version of Hideout in Splitpaw. Some pulls we would get 2 heroic encounters (by accident), which would have been a wipe if I had not been able to mez/stun/stifle effectively. Turning chaos into order is what I enjoy doing as a coercer. Take a pull that is wild and uncontrolled and quickly/efficiently turn it into an ordered pull.Being able to quickly flow from offense to defense to help with the needs of the moment is also important to me. Too much incoming damage that the healer is having trouble healing? Stifle/stuns (or mez part of the encounter). Things going well? Switch back to nuking and DoTs.(more on this in another post, where I'll get into my reactions to the changes as they are on Test so far)

[WuphonsReach]

Yesterday was extremely frustrating trying to play a 25 coercer in a group.<b>Mez</b>:Instead of having 2 mez lines at 24, I now only have a single mez line. Worse, it's a 24s mez (way too short) with a recast of 10s. Which means that I can (barely) keep 2 mobs mezzed. This needs to be adjusted. The benchmark should be that I can lock down 3 mobs within the first 18 sec of a fight, and keep them all mezzed, while still having time to deal with other situations. (Basically, I'd mez the first, do something else quick, mez #2, do something else quick, mez #3, do 2 more things, then refresh the mez on #1.)In an ideal world, I'd have a short-cast, short-duration, short-recast mez on one timer and a long-cast, long-duration, moderate-recast mez on a 2nd timer. Basically, the short-duration mez for initial crowd control combined with the longer mez for parking mobs for longer. Give me the options and flexibility to choose how I want to mez. Remember, mezzing mobs = slower XP gain (in general) due to requring teamwork, can't use AoE, and the time between mob's dying where the tank has to pause and pick a new target.So, for a dual-timer pair of mezzes (unlikely that you'll give us this):- short: 1sec cast, 4sec recast, 20s duration (up to 36s at adept3)- long: 3sec cast, 8sec recast, 45s duration (up to 90s at adept3)Alternately, if we're going to be stuck with a single mez:- existing cast of 1sec is fine- recast of 10sec is way too high, this needs to be lowered to 5-6 seconds- duration needs to start at 36 sec for App1, growing to 72-90 sec for Adept3Trying to use the current version of Mez feels like I'm trying to build a house with warped/metal tools. Extremely frustrating compared to what I was able to accomplish earlier in the week. I felt very powerless last night to affect the outcome of a fight.<b>Encounter Mez</b>Thoughstones are broken, the spell that grants thoughtstones isn't working and the stones are flagged as TEMPORARY (unlike the reagents that SKs get for their pet spells). Can't test this spell (Terrible Awe) at all. But, my thoughts based on the spell details:- recast time of 1 minute is fine, IF, our single-target mez is lengthened (so that we can encounter mez, then proceed to lock mobs down 1 at a time)- duration is too short (12sec) and should be 18s at App1, give us long enough so that we can lock down at least 2 of the 4 mezzed mobs with a long-duration mez before it breaks- thoughstones need to be made permanent (even if left as NO-TRADE, NO-VALUE), otherwise I have to spend 30-60 minutes at the start of my play session trying to generate thoughtstones<b>Charm and Groups</b>Charm is currently semi-broken and suffers from a few issues that I'll discuss later. When used in a group situation (grouped with other players), it provides a very nice way to boost coercer DPS. The downside is that it's not always possible to find a mob that can be charmed. But when it works, it works well.

[WuphonsReach]

<b>Charm Issues</b>When you charm a mob, it locks you into combat mode for the duration. Workaround and side-effect issues:- charm the mob, then target yourself and /yell- removes you from combat mode- allows you to buff the pet- pet will not obey any commands other then attack and back off due to the combat lock- keeping your pet at your heels is tricky (I was sending it to attack a nearby target to bring it close, then telling it to back off before it engaged)- you cannot re-charm the mob (the second time, the /yell will not remove you from combat mode twice)- people cannot join the group while you have a charmed pet, even if you do the /yell- people cannot change mentoring options while you have a charmed pet- when the charm breaks, you end up with a mob that needs to be killed but that will not grant xp/loot<b>Questions and thought exercises</b>- what happens to loot when you charm a mob in a multi-mob encounter?- is it possible to charm multiple mobs in a multi-mob encounter and thus trivialize an encounter?- when does the chest drop when you charm part of a multi-mob encounter? (answer, it should happen when the last charmed mob is killed, but what if the last mob dies while in 'pet' mode?)<b>Thoughts on the spell</b>- 10 min duration is a good minimum (I'm hoping the Adept3 boosts it to 24-30 min)- cast time is okay, range is a bit short- charm does not work on the advanced solo mobs (one arrow up), and it should- charmed pets are not respecting the "mez" on other mobs on their hatelist (thus, breaking mez left and right)<b>Groups and Charm</b>- not sure how well this is going to work in a dungeon, with no solo-con mobs nearby to charm (unless I swipe part of an encounter)- worked well in TS where I could grab a nearby solo mob- the group has to be patient with the coercer currently due to the bugs (and allowing the coercer time to find and tame a mob)- buffwise, I don't bother to haste/buff the pet<b>Soloing with Charm</b>This is where charm starts to get enjoyable, but if charm breaks, things get really ugly really quickly. So, I'd say risk vs reward is about even at the moment.Since charmed pets do not taunt, I have to let the pet do all the work while I toss an occasional stifle/DoT. This is an issue while soloing, because once I pull aggro off the pet things get difficult. I'm still trying to work out tactics.One method:- pet tanks, I stifle and DoT, then nuke heavily towards the end (along with stuns)- when the pet is about 1min left on the timer, I try to get the pet killed and then I solo the mob the rest of the way- since I can't recharm without getting combat-lock, I may as well sacrifice the pet at the end of the timer- requires a bit of timing and tactics, killing your pet slowly enough that it remains useful for a few fights, but fast enough so that it dies before charm wears offOther method:- pet is just an animated DoT, while I root/stun/stifle and keep aggro- since you can't recharm currently, that leaves me with a full health, broken encounter mob once charm drops (no reward)Buffs when soloing:1 point for breeze3 points for the charm1 point for Recklessness (melee haste) placed on the charmed petAlso buff the charmed pet with the hate increase buffIt would be nice if the hate buff (Smirking Demeanor) would also proc a taunt. Then, I would have a pet that could hold aggro a bit more and allow me to dump mana into Nukes/DoTs.<b>Summary</b>Charm is definitely interesting. It's a nice way to add DPS to a coercer.

[WuphonsReach]

One final note on charm. More of a balancing feedback.The App1 should only allow you to charm mobs that are 2 levels below you. The App3 should allow even-con mobs to be charmed, the App4/Adept1 should allow for one level above you, and the Adept3 should allow for 3 levels above you.This may be unnecessary... after all, if I manage to charm something 3 levels above me, when that charm break, I'm going to be in a world of hurt unless I can get it locked back down. But I would rather see it balanced in the above manner, rather then seeing it limited to only working on mobs even-con or less.

[WuphonsReach]

Soloed for about 2 hours last night in Thundering Steppes (level 25/26 coercer), relying on Charm to solo. I got about 20-30% of a level in that 2 hours (which is slow, compared to what I could get in a group).- Each "pet" gave me enough time to kill about 4-6 solo mobs before I had to ditch my pet and find a new one (or re-charm). That's about 4% XP per 10 minute pet. You end up using the pet for 8 minutes, then have to spend 4 or 5 minutes getting a new one.- Most of the time, I was using a level 25 or level 27 mighty griffon from the Bloodtalon spawn area. Nice pet, chews through mobs that were green to me (21-23) quickly. Held aggro well enough that I could DoT constantly, and do HOs towards the end of the fight. Also a slightly dangerous pet if I were to lose control of it.- <b>If I get the killing blow... the fight ends in combat-lock. As long as the pet gets the killing blow, we don't get stuck-in-combat.</b>- Without the upgraded version of Coerce(20), with a longer duration, soloing with charm is a bit tedious. I have to first find a pet, then make sure there are enough encounters within range to kill before my charm breaks, then deal with various ways of dismissing the pet (and optionally recharming).<b>Solo Tactics</b>Tried a few new ways to get rid of my pet at the end:1) Suicide pet on a far away heroic encounter... while I run the other direction as fast as possible. Pet dies, encounter aggros on me, but hopefully breaks before it reaches me. Advantage is that I'm not dealing with trying to kill the pet myself. Downside is that I lose a perfectly good pet.2) Park pet at one end of the griffon fields (near the centaur camp), run to Thundermist Village area, then dismiss pet. The pet aggros on me, but breaks the encounter before it reaches me. Advantage is that I can go back and re-charm the pet as if it was the first time, but the downside is the time required to run away, then run back and charm it again. (About 8 minutes of killing, then 4 minutes of dismiss/recharm.)<b>Solo Thoughts (not just about Charm)</b>Granted, I only have 68 INT, but I feel like my DoTs and nukes are underpowered in the mid-20s. I'm curious to know what the devs think my INT should be at level 25. OTOH, my AGI is 86 and my STA is 58 (I'm an enchanter... I like to live through 2-3 hits). I think the devs should do a database query on players at the 20/25/30/35/40/45/50 range and see what the min/max/avg is for INT gear on mages.As an enchanter... I would love a de-aggro spell of some sort. The charmed pet doesn't taunt, and it would be nice to have a self-buff that I could place on myself to proc if I get hit. (Might be overpowered, so it's more of a wishful thinking item.) Right now, if I pull aggro off the charmed pet, I have to run around for a minute or so before the pet pulls it back off of me.

[WuphonsReach]

Ah wait... enchanters get the "Blink" spell, which I will have to look at again. (Supposedly a de-aggro spell of some sort, I'll have to try it tonight.)

[Grimsore]

Played 29 illusionist for the first time. I soloed in Varsoon and had a blast. Died 4 or so times but made good experience. I soloed green and a couple times blue heroic groups using the pet. Entrall worked well to keep on mob locked down in two mob encounters and the pet with haste, debuffs and nukes from me did very well. It wasn't easy by any means nd kept me very busy, which was fun. I noticed at 29 she can't charm mobs. She has one charm spell that will only charm up to level 24.

[WuphonsReach]

<b>Buffs at Coercer Level 26</b><b>Magi's Shielding(4)</b>- Enchanters never get an upgrade to this, so it's basically a dead spell line for us. It may take a while for that information to filter out to the playerbase.- But since we used to be able to use it... it might be seen as a nerf.- Unless it was dramatically upgraded, it's not something that I would spend 3 concentration points on past level 9.- Summoner's probably won't use this either... ever (since they need 3 points for their pets). Wizards might use it (dunno).<b>Power of Suggestion(21)</b>- 1 point group buff- App1: +49 power, +134 mitig against Divine/Magic, +168 mitig vs Mental- This is really only useful against mobs where you expect to see casters mixed in.- If it had the ward effect built-in (like Magi's Shielding) it would be a good upgrade to the Magi's shielding line.- I will probably not use this in a group, unless there are only 2 melee on which to place Recklessness<b>Signet of Insight(26)</b>- 1 point group buff- App1: +143 power- Not very useful. I would rather have an INT buff to help casters do more damage against mobs with their casted spells.- Signet of Insight has a bit of overlap with Power of Suggestion... I really can't figure out how the two spell lines are supposed to interact/overlap/complement each other.- In a melee heavy group, I'd be more likely to pass out Recklessness(20) to a 2nd melee rather then use this group buff.<b>Breeze(1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></b>- 1 point group buff- App4: +7.3 power/tick- I'm happy that this is now a group buff (I dreaded being the crack [Removed for Content] for a full raid of 24 people, spending half my time trying to keep 24 breezes up)- If it gave double the power out-of-combat per-tick, I'd be even happier (so 7.3 in-combat regen, 14.6 out-of-combat regen)<b>Recklessness</b>- 1 point single-target buff- App1: increases DPS of target by 19.3%- nice spell, moderately annoying that it uses conc points<b>Smirking Demeanor</b>- zero point single-target perma-buff- App1: increases hate gain of target by 19.2%- nice spell, surprised it doesn't cost a concentration point (I will now burn in hell for that...)...<b>Solo Play (Charm Soloing)</b>When soloing, using charmed pets. I'm using my 3 points for Coerce(20), 1 point for Breeze(1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and 1 point for Recklessness(20). I place Recklessness(20) and Smirking Demeanor(24) on the pet. <b>Group Play (no charm)</b>One point for Breeze(1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, one point for Recklessness(20) that gets placed on the melee DPS in the group. Smirking Demeanor(24) gets placed on the tank. I might place a 2nd Recklessness on a 2nd melee in the group. If we're fighting caster mobs, I'll put Power of Suggestion up.<b>Summary</b>Coercers don't seem to have an offense/defense set of buffs that require 3 points. Our only useful 3-point spell is the Coerce line. At times when we're not using charm, we'll be loading up on the other spells (giving out additional haste, or loading up Signet of Insight / Power of Suggestion).

[Grimsore]

I think it would just be nice if 2 mobs could be locked down with 80-90 percent success. Any less success rate and it causes more trouble then it helps. I’m talking single target long duration mez, not the aoe short duration type.If an enchanter can lock down 2 mobs 90 percent of the time then I want them in my group. If the chance is less and they keep getting resists and being hit or letting the healers be hit then he becomes more of a liability than asset. From a tank point of view. You either have to trust that the enchanter is going to save himself and the cleric or you have to ignore mez all together and do agro control yourself as if there was no enchanter.But, I do see the danger in effective mesmerize. It can create a lot of situations where encounters are trivial because of mesmerize or SOE starts to buff mobs up eventually leading to mesmerize being required. This was where eq 1 went. You have no enchanter then you where screwed on 80 percent of the content.

[WuphonsReach]

Unfortunately, Charm is now broken and unusable as of the Wed night patch. Which is a real pain, because with the nerfs to my crowd control abilities, my only option is to fight solo mobs that come in singles (can't do the multiple mob solos, where I used to mez 2, beat the 3rd down, then work on #2 while I kept one mezzed).The current bug with Charm is that any mob that you charm is unable to do any melee damage to another mob. All of their melee hits are 100% misses (with a bunch of "Immune" text floating over their targets head). Which also means that my charmed pet cannot hold aggro at all.