You are currently earning double XP

[Kwoung]

<DIV>I think this is a real bad move.. it is going to hammer people that are knocked down to regular XP. I was thinking XP was pretty slow tonight, then I find out that was double rate? Gah <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would leave that message out.. I don't think much good is going to come of it.</DIV>

[Jon]

Yes, yesterday when I was tracking numbers I noticed that any vitality gave me double experience. 1.4% on a white con mob, 1% on a blue con. After I ran out of vitality those numbers dropped to .7% for a white and .5% for a blue. Suddenly the game was a massive grind.<p>Message Edited by Jon on <span class=date_text>01-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:24 PM</span>

[Agathorn]

I like the vitality system. Why do people always look at things the wrong way? If you play more casually the vitality keeps you gaining extra exp so you can sorta keep pace with people who play more often but burn up thier vitality. This system lets casual players feel less penalized and I think its great.

[Jon]

<blockquote><hr>Agathorn wrote:I like the vitality system. Why do people always look at things the wrong way? <hr></blockquote>The system looks good as a system. I don't think anyone is arguing that it doesn't. However in any system exposed to people, you have to take into account the human reaction. Psychology is an important part of implementation.

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jon wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Agathorn wrote:<BR>I like the vitality system. Why do people always look at things the wrong way? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The system looks good as a system. I don't think anyone is arguing that it doesn't. However in any system exposed to people, you have to take into account the human reaction. Psychology is an important part of implementation.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Exacty...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just got another shipment of Inks today to work my sage skills with, then noticed that I am at 3.5% vitality for tradeskilling. That just hammered me, as last night it took quite a bit to get my level and the thought of it taking double that today (after a few combines to burn up that 3.5%) made me cringe. Not to mention me having to waste double the amount of these extremely hard to come by resources to achieve that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not a complete min/maxer, I generally put myself about halfway bettween casual and powergamer.... but this system has a huge negative effect on my gameplay. Not only do I have to generally wait to get components to do my tradeskills, but now I have to wait another 200 hours on top of that to get my Vitality back before I can skill up effectively again?!?</DIV>

[Kwoung]

<DIV>Ok.. first hand experience now.. I hit zero tradeskill vitality this morning and my new item experience dropped from 5.5% to 2.5% or so... I put my pens, inks and paper back in the bank and will not be crafting again until my vitality is recharged (200 hours is it?).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry, but I can not be burning 70 inks, papers and quills to make a single level in sage.. that is just way to much and definately way to much work to ask of my component suppliers, for who it takes days to make that many components for me. So now I am not only limited by component supply, but I have an additional stop gap in my rate of XP gain... bleh. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Agathorn]

<DIV>The system has always been there.  You just didn't see it before.  Its BONUS exp for crying out loud.  You aren't losing exp just because you're not getting bonus exp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS Not flaming anyone on this subject..sorry if my words sound harsh.  Just presenting my opinions.  I love the vitality system.</DIV>

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Agathorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>The system has always been there.  You just didn't see it before.  Its BONUS exp for crying out loud.  You aren't losing exp just because you're not getting bonus exp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS Not flaming anyone on this subject..sorry if my words sound harsh.  Just presenting my opinions.  I love the vitality system.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Hate to disagree.. but I have never before gotten as little as 2.5% for making a new item while crafting.. it has steadilly decreased from 9% at the lower levels down to 5% at the higher levels and I have done some serious crafting binges, so I can say without a doubt, I must have hit zero vitality before today on many occassions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly, I do not feel it is a bonus.. I feel like they took the previous normal XP and called it double.. them when you lose your vitality you drop to half rate. Once again.. I have never, ever only gotten 2.5% for an even level item I have never made before (and I watch my xp fairly closely)... this is a first.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>01-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:50 PM</span>

[Jon]

<blockquote><hr>Agathorn wrote:<DIV>The system has always been there. You just didn't see it before. </DIV><hr></blockquote>Actually this is a different system since first implementation. The old system was a three tiered thing that was so complicated it couldn't be explained easily. This is a simpler version.Exposing anything invites scrutiny and reaction. The exposure of something that changes your enjoyment of the game, moreso.Hence, scrutiny and reaction.

[Kwoung]

<DIV>If this is the way it ends up being, I roll with the punches pretty good.. but after experiencing both adventure and tradeskill XP gain rates at what appears to be 1/2 of what I have experienced every day I have played to date... all I can say is, that the general playerbase is most lkely going to look upon this change as the nerf of all nerfs. The system "appears" to not give any bonus at all and instead, cuts your XP in half when your vitality runs out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe my style of play in the past made it so I always had vitality, but I can definately say that XP gain (both tradeskill and adventure) has hit an all time low with this new system for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: BTW, I am not sure exactly how regen works, but I was told .5% per hour. If that is correct, 200 hours to regen what went away in an afternoon of play seems considerably off. Effectively, by doing any hunting whatsoever, I will always be at 0% vitality after having used up my original pool.. unless of course, I only log in once every 8-9 days or so.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>01-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:54 PM</span>

[Agathorn]

Well right now i'm hunting level 20 even (white) con solo crabs in Thundering Steppes. I'm currently getting the "Double exp bonus" and receiving 1.2% per kill using up 0.2% of Vitality per kill. I currently have 96.8% vitality.1.2% per kill with vitality bonus. That would be 0.6% without vitality bonus. So once I use up all my vitality i'll be receiving just about exactly what I was always used to getting per kill anyway. Granted this is a very narrow study, but from what i'm seeing right here it is indeed a bonus above what I always got before. 0.6% per white solo con kill is about what i'd always gotten before.

[Corlin]

<DIV><FONT size=2>Regen is actually 100 percent / 168 hours or ~0.6 % gained back per hour.  You have to stop using Vitality for several hours to get an accurate read, but I have confirmed the 0.6 number.  So if you eat/sleep/work 16 hours a day - you gain back nearly 10% before you log in again.  On the other hand, 10% goes quickly.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>When vitality was first explained to me (before we got the patch), I loved it... feeling exactly the way Agathorn does.  In fact Jon (no offense), I thought you were nuts.  But having played with it for a couple days now I admit I was nuts, and Jon had it nailed all along.  Human nature doesnt like good fun things going poof.  When my vitalilty drains to zero, I get depressed and have to go into rehab (log off till it rebuilds).  Folk on the server are already using "rehab" to mean logging off till vitality rebuilds.  Jokes about "needing a fix" and "being addicted" make vitality the new KEI.  I know it's supposed to be just a nice bonus for casual players, and does not change my exps gain except in a positive way (I think you are mistaken Kwoung, my exps checks show they did not lower anything, you just get double when you have any amount of vitality at all).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Still - if I can spend half the time (with vitality) to get the same exps, it makes me want to go read, play a different game, do anything but EQ2 when the bar runs out.  Just psychology, as Jon says, but powerful.</FONT></DIV>

[Evadne]

Yah know, I agree with the human nature thing, albeit reluctantly. I honestly, logically know that vitality is a bonus. Without it you have normal xp. When I deplete my bonus, I get the norm. When I log in after working for two hard days, oh look bonus xp. I get a fabulous burst of xp gain. But, if I play too long it goes away. Oh, hey I still have the next day off. Subconciously, I am looking for xp gain to remain constant...but it feels slow there. End of my weekend depression sets in and I think, oh, sigh, I didn't seem to get much done today. It felt like a grind.Grind.Oh, I hate that word. Because honestly, the game doesn't personify it. But, show me vitality and suddenly I have moments where I am feeling like it. The sensation of the bonus is horrid. The idea is genuinely appreciated for those who can't play as much as others. I barely ran out of vitality on adventure xp. I can imagine that for me I would never have Tradeskill Vitality and occaisonally run out of adventure vitality.I'd rather not see it. But, the games player base knows it is there....how do you unring the bell?

[Kwoung]

<DIV>Well I just read Modests reply to another thread on our community board where she mentioned XP at level 25 sage... and it seems pre-change she was getting 4% on new items at level 25, so I guess my 5.5% was better than that when I had vitality, however... my 2.5% per spell for new items after the VIT went away was considerably less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyhow, no idea how the numbers are working out.. and I will test this again very carefully tomorrow to see, but it would be helpful to know exactly how much XP am I supposed to be getting on a new combine at level 25 sage, so I have a baseline. So far my only baseline is Modest, who got 4% XP (unknown vitality)... I will see if I do in fact get 2%, 4% or 8%.. but my crafting today showed 5.5% and 2.5% (2.75% maybe?).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any other crafters at level 25 know what they are getting on a new combine with and without VIT?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(and I only want to check this to see if there is some bug involved BTW.. because something seems very off with my crafting)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>01-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:33 PM</span>

[C]

<DIV>Morning all!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the honest feedback, both on this topic and on others.  The presentation of Vitality has been an interesting issue for exactly the reasons you've mentioned.  Please keep the feedback coming as we tinker with the system.  Thanks.</DIV>

[Agathorn]

Perhaps an option to turn on or off the use of vitality? If you turn it off, you would still accumulate it (maybe even accumulate it faster as a bonus) but you would also not use it and therefore receive no bonus exp. Once you turned it back on you will start using it up.Just a thought but I could see myself using such a feature. If i'm out fooling around, or doing quests, or somethign else where the exp is fine without the bonus I would actually like to turn it off so that I don't use it up. I'd rather "save" my vitality for another time when I choose to use it to push me along.This MAY present an otion for the "Oh I have no vitality so I might as well log until I do" mentality? Having vitality accrue at a faster rate while turned off might be a good thing to go with this.Just some random thoughts that went through my head. Doesn't mean they're good or bad <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Melinda]

I very much like that Idea Agathorn.

[Jon]

Having spent a while with the gem and the right arrow, I found I didn't think so much about adventure vitality. The arrow was very much appreciated, telling me that I would have vitality through the rest of the level. It made me want to finish my level.The vitality was of biggest concern for me when I was soloing. Soloing is always the most grindlike for me. I don't really enjoy it. When I was in a good group I didn't give vitality any thought at all. It's also nice to know that on the hour I'm going to get a bit of an experience boost.

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jon wrote:<BR>Having spent a while with the gem and the right arrow, I found I didn't think so much about adventure vitality. The arrow was very much appreciated, telling me that I would have vitality through the rest of the level. It made me want to finish my level. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I have also found that vitality is not a 100% across the board issue for me either. Last night I was grinding up my craftsman making food, and I could care less if I had vitality or not (I didn't btw).. but I attributed that to my feeling that what I was doing was useful and all the components were effectively free anyways. Also, when adventuring, I do not think about it (or XP in general usually) and make my levels as they come.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With my sage however.. it is a huge deal for me, that is a slow and painful grind of items with limited usefulness that require a lot of work (and expense on live) to obtain the components to make. Having to use double the components to obtain the same results with sage is a major drag.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: Maybe I wouldn't feel that way with my sage if I was making "free" stuff from raw materials to skill up with.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>01-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:03 PM</span>

[Agathorn]

<blockquote><hr>Jon wrote:The vitality was of biggest concern for me when I was soloing. Soloing is always the most grindlike for me. I don't really enjoy it. When I was in a good group I didn't give vitality any thought at all. It's also nice to know that on the hour I'm going to get a bit of an experience boost.<hr></blockquote>This is one of the reasons that I had the idea about having the option to turn off the use of vitality. I'd love to be able to turn off the use of vitality when i'm grouping, and let my vitality build up. Then when i'm stuck soloing and griding I can turn vitality on and use it to cushion the grind so to speak.

[Jiggers]

<DIV>i love the idea of vitality and the overall effect it has on leveling of all player types.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>its interesting however. . .seeing my exp bar draw closer to the arrow indicating where my vitality will end gives me such mixed feelings . . .its almost as if i dont want to reach that arrow, but i want to continue progressing with quests, fighting, and progressing my character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what really doesnt work for me personally is that the change feels so dramatic. to use the 'rehab' metaphor - going from bonus exp to regular exp feels like such a crash.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>expanding on agathorn's idea, it would be nice to be able to exercise some control over how the vitality is used.  a lot of the concerns seem to be rooted in 'lack of control.'  so what about adding a simple slider of some sort?  from 0% (all vitality acrued is banked) to 100% (double exp).  i know this is asking a lot, implementation-wise, but i think it might address the concerns that have been brought up.  the nightly player can ration it out over his session.  eva's weekend player can adjust to have it last over their two free days.   the powergamer can 'bank 'n crank'(tm) for the last 5% push to level up.  kwoung can extend his tradeskill sessions without feeling that heavy dump at 0%, solo players like jon can save it while playing in groups, and the unlucky player (and other wisp-magnet-druid-halflings who shall remain anonymous) can use it to expitide debt recovery. :smileysurprised:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or is this too much control for a system that was not intended to be player managed? ill let you guys answer the question as i am too tired (and enchanted lands was too fun!) and feel i may not be thinking something though.  i may edit later, but i wanted to put something out there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(jigs)</DIV> <P>edit: corrected names</P><p>Message Edited by Jiggers on <span class=date_text>01-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:41 PM</span>

[CerraWhisperwind]

Perhaps they should wean you off slowly.... if you have 10% or more you get double exp, but as you go below 10% you only get 150% exp but you only loose vitality half as fast.

[gemic]

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet... is vitality used when you gain quest experience? I thought it was today, but I haven't used the gauge much and am still learning. If it is, it seems like a waste. I would much rather save it for melee experience only.

[Agathorn]

<blockquote><hr>gemic wrote:I haven't seen anyone mention this yet... is vitality used when you gain quest experience? I thought it was today, but I haven't used the gauge much and am still learning. If it is, it seems like a waste. I would much rather save it for melee experience only.<hr></blockquote>Yes it is used up ANYTIME you gain exp as far as i've seen. That includes quest exp, even PoI exp. Hence why control would be nice. Right now my newbie fighter is working on quests I know give good exp and his class quest. I'd much rather NOT use up my vitality doing these quests. I actually find myself hesitant to log him in and do those quests lol. If I could turn off the use of vitality I think that simple piece of control would make me feel better.

[CerraWhisperwind]

The sad thing is if you could turn it off it would only slow your advancement down. Your vitality is a pool of free experience that is released to you as you earn other experience, kind of like funds matching for a 401k by your employer. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Perhaps they should show it as a 2nd line of experience? Just like when you defeat a group mob, you could get a line that says "You recieve bonus experience from your vitality!" Remove the vitality parts from the exp bar (including the whole "double exp" wording) and add a 2nd exp bar just for vitality that shows how much you have banked.

[Agathorn]

<blockquote><hr>CerraWhisperwind wrote:The sad thing is if you could turn it off it would only slow your advancement down. Your vitality is a pool of free experience that is released to you as you earn other experience, kind of like funds matching for a 401k by your employer. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Perhaps they should show it as a 2nd line of experience? Just like when you defeat a group mob, you could get a line that says "You recieve bonus experience from your vitality!" Remove the vitality parts from the exp bar (including the whole "double exp" wording) and add a 2nd exp bar just for vitality that shows how much you have banked.<hr></blockquote>The point isn't whether it helps you or not, the point is that the control over it makes it psychologically (sp) different. Vitality is good all around IMHO but having control over it makes it better. I'd rather burn through my vitality during periods of my own choosing when i'm prone to be watching my exp rate more. When i'm grouping or questing I tend not to look at my exp so i'd actually rather save my vitality during those times.As for visually.. I actually have my exp bar setup like you describe. I have a 2nd bar under my exp bar that shows exactly how much vitality I have.

[Silverdrop]

The really sad part is that psychologicaly you worry about when your vitality hits 0 whereas realistically you should worry more about the point when vitality hits 100% (at which point you don't actually gain any "bonus xp" for your "bonus xp reserve"). Fortunately, however, this is more likely to happen to the casual player who is still too busy feeling happy about the fact he actaully gains double xp prett6y much all the time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kwoung]

<DIV>Maybe it is a good thing game design wise.. but I can say for sure now, that I will not craft without a vitality bonus... it is way to much of a waste of materials. So, I grind my sage all day Sunday, make a couple levels and shelf crafting until the next weekend. Maybe good in a way, but there are lots of between times I would like to craft, but doing so would mess up my next crafting day by bringing my Vit down.</DIV>

[Ce]

<DIV>I'm a big fan of the vitality system.  Since EQ2 pretty much eliminated powerleveling toons outside of the XP range for groups, its a huge problem if friends get too far apart in level due to amount of time played.  Vitality has been a good method to help the slower paced folks keep up.   But of couse, I am one of the folks who have yet to empty either vitality bucket.... :smileywink:</DIV>

[Mavios]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR> <DIV>Maybe it is a good thing game design wise.. but I can say for sure now, that I will not craft without a vitality bonus... it is way to much of a waste of materials. So, I grind my sage all day Sunday, make a couple levels and shelf crafting until the next weekend. Maybe good in a way, but there are lots of between times I would like to craft, but doing so would mess up my next crafting day by bringing my Vit down.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well if you think about it one way it seems like a bad thing.  But think about it this way.....  In one day you will gain x vitality.  Whether you gain normal exp or not you will still gain that vitality (potential exp).  If you play for 24 hours (caffene pills could work) without quiting and you gain 60% exp without vitality.  Now if you had 0 vitality at the begining of the day and played through the whole day, you still gain the x vitality.. You just lose it too.. But you gain extra exp by playing without vitality.  In all the time people wait for vitality to gain up they could be making lots more exp than vitality actually gives you.  Sure it will seem slower, but its actually alot faster.  Example:  Two people are the same level exactly and 100% vitality.  They both play untill 0% vitality.  One continues playing  while the other wait for vitality to raise to 100% again.  In the time it took the one who waited to get 100% vitality to get their.  The one who played still got 100% vitality, and used it AND got more exp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                   Poor illustation!   "--- is time spent exping"</DIV> <DIV>                                                                                       player1   100% vit------------------------------------0%vit----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------0%vit</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                       player2   100%vit------------------------------------0%vit *wait forever* 100%vit</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conclusion:  Dont pay attention to vitality at all, just go about playing the game.  The concept is the same as before, if you play more you get more exp than if you dont..  It only changes how fast everyone can gain exp (a good deal faster).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: why did they let us see it at all?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Mavios on <span class=date_text>02-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:12 PM</span>

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mavios wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>Conclusion:  Dont pay attention to vitality at all, just go about playing the game.  The concept is the same as before, if you play more you get more exp than if you dont..  It only changes how fast everyone can gain exp (a good deal faster).  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>With crafting, it is not a time thing, it is a resource / cash thing. If I can make 2x the XP off X amount of resources, then that is a huge deal. Before today it was about resource availability, after today it is about costs. With the new fuel costs, paying 2x a much for the same XP gain is nuts, especially at the higher tiers.</DIV>