Warden Cure Line Duration Nerf

[civilgeek]

The following doesn't need to be tested to know it isn't going to work:- Warden:  Cure Enhancements will expire after 3 hits from that damage type.This change will instantly make all of our cure line AA's unbearable to play with.  Who wants to spam one buff in order to keep it on the group and MT.  Our trauma cure may stay up for a maximum of 6-10 seconds on a solo mob and possibly less than 2 seconds on a group encounter. SOE please rethink this! As of right now this is going to make pretty much every warden turn their backs on this line of AA's which was really the only line that gave us something worthwhile in groupraid. If this line truelly is in the eyes of the devs to nerf  I could maybe see this requirement on the Verdant spell line but not on the single target cures. I can't think of another method that could have been implemented to these spells that would make them uterly this useless.  This would put this spell in line with our group root agi debuff that gets knocked off when the root comes off from incoming damage (5% chance on any damage).  In a group setting with 6 people nuking a mob this spell might stay up for about 5 seconds out of the 40+ second root and thats only with a 5% chance to break.  3 hits is insanely too low. If this goes in please make it so Macros can loop... that way I can make my cure trauma hotkey... put the tank on autofollow... and go to dinner<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>Haldir - 70 Warden - OasisLeader of the Golden Rose of Qeynos<div></div>

[T'Pol]

This is an outrage as this nerf renders the only useful AA line useless.I have 42 AAs to go but i am sure ill let them unassigned as there is nothing useful to put them in now <span>:smileymad:</span> (well except spores or spirit of the bat)<div></div>

[Drizz]

<P>Yep, this is pretty much a slap in the face.  </P> <P>The cure line was the only thing Wardens had that could enhance group and raid play, and now that is pretty much gone, or the most useful parts of it, the Physical Mitigation.</P> <P>The Movement line is useless in PvE.</P> <P>The Combat Art Line lowers our DPS</P> <P>The renewal line has 2 useful things, Spores increased proc rate, and Spirit of the bat power regen increase.   If the DI' Enhancements were even half as good as that Tinkered DI item, they might be nice. (FYI, it has 25% Chance to heal the person its on by 40% HP/Power, this 25% chance Increases with Blessings and other  Proc enhancement AA)  But a 600-1200 Priest heal after a trigger isnt going to be good in situations when it will most likely be needed (Multi mobs) </P> <P>So after this nerf, Wardens will have 9 total AA that will directly enhance their character full time (Spores, and Bat) The rest are all temp, or requires someone to die.</P> <P> I tried for weeks in beta to present ideas and suggestions for all Warden AA Lines.</P> <P>But here you have Fury's with their Energy Vertex parsing 900-1700 DPS, but hey, thats perfectly balanced!</P><p>Message Edited by Drizzen on <span class=date_text>12-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 PM</span>

[Writer Cal]

<P>So now that we've lost most of the benefit on our best EoF AAs, may we please have 50% SoW like other classes who spend the same amount of AA as us, have Nature Walk actually work on most knockbacks like the description says, and have the recast times on our CAs reduced?</P> <P>Something to make up for it?</P> <P>Pretty please with whips and chains on top?</P>

[Lunaya]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I can't imagine the devs have even thought about this before hitting the big, red nerf-button.Did you hear that, SOE? I hate you for this! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I loved the Warden class since release, because I wanted to be the perfect Druid-Healer, completely group oriented, but now it's senseless. Fury heals are as good as ours, Fury buffs are as good as ours, Furies have roots and teleports as well but Furies do twice the damage we do. And if it wasn't enough, now you're nerfing our only useful, group-oriented EoF line. In my opinion Wardens should therefore get a significant improvement to heals, maybe with one of the Wardens-AA lines.@Writer Cal: AgreeBtw, what is this silly 3-seconds-reuse-speed-improvement on an every-15-minutes-emergency-heal crap about? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Sony, if it is your intention to entirely wipe out the Warden class, great work! =D<p>Nachricht bearbeitet von Lunaya am <span class=date_text>12-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:21 PM</span>

[Renpatsu]

<P>I agree, that there probably hasn't been put much thought into this change.</P> <P>With diminishing returns, the cure effect on live isn't overpowered right now, as the mitigation/resist type increase overall is marginal and you have to take care of recasting it every minute.</P> <P>Interpreting the change now, I suspect at least the trauma cure effect and perhaps verdant group cure effect being totally worthless - I am not sure if the verdant cure effect drops if only one damage type hits three times. The other cure effects will be worthless in certain situations. Spamming cures just isn't an option and Warden's don't see when the effect drops on others (beside the group cure one on live right now).</P> <P>Well, I am not really sure where to put any AAs in for my (raiding) Warden alt, if this goes live. The EoF Warden AAs will be even more disappointing. Please reconsider this change.</P><p>Message Edited by Renpatsu on <span class=date_text>12-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:11 AM</span>

[HVA]

<P>This sounds terrible. As a raiding warden, i now only have 2 things i want (spores and sprit of the bat), and one might even be capped anyway ? (oh well maybe the recast reducer on our tree too). All 3 is not anything fancy, in other words EoF dont provide anything very usefull for wardens.</P> <P>The cure line wasnt overpowered in my opinion, allthough it was usefull. Now its simply nothing. I really hope SOE will consider this again, or many wardens will take a big hit on their motivation.</P> <P>Oh, and btw, please fix the missing icon in the "maintained window". Now it will be more important than ever.</P> <P>Louiise, spiltpaw warden</P>

[Lunaya]

Please, devs, have mercy and do something <span>:smileysad:</span>-> <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=20971&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>Warden Forum Discussion</a><div></div>

[Bratface]

<div></div>Honestly I just don't get it, and I would love someone to explain it to me, I rolled a Warden at launch because I wanted to be a defensive druid, I want to heal and buff and keep my people alive, I did not roll a fury because I wasn't interested in DPS, I wanted to heal and between the two classes Warden came out ahead on healing/buffing.But now furies heal as well as a warden does, they out-DPS us on by an insane amount (my T4 Fury has better DPS than my 70 Warden), wardens were given CA's in the EoF tree which are useless for a defensive druid (and lower warden DPS anyway), I won't even consider wasting points on them and now we are getting hit with the nerf bat in one of the only useful places that we had.Our SoW upgrade gives us less point-for-point value than a Mystic gets for their same AA points, we get crappy melee CA's in our AA line, we don't have any Caster DPS increases, we don't get any heal boosts that I am aware of, what in the world is the message I am supposed to get from all this?I am obviously missing something, and I am NOT trying to be a smart-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but could someone who has knowledge of the reasons for these changes and differences between the classes? Where is the balance, the equality? What is the direction we are being led in?Oh and insult to injury is that with the new Agression skill being added, we don't have a debuff for it but furies do...From Test notes: * Fury: Irritating Swarm: Reduces Aggression skill.We only have ONE debuff, and its on our AoE root spell..... Why not give an Agression Debuff to Wardens as well as Furies?I just don't understand where SOE is taking the Warden, or if they are just sending us out to pasture because our days are over.....<div></div><p>Message Edited by Bratface on <span class=date_text>12-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:47 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR>welcome to the world of soes unloved classes they do it from time to time you know .... what a crap change , seriously devs did you think this through or /GASP even test it ?

[Lunaya]

<div><blockquote><hr>Bratface schrieb:<div></div>I am obviously missing something, and I am NOT trying to be a smart-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but could someone who has knowledge of the reasons for these changes and differences between the classes?<hr></blockquote>I know, I know! They must have thought "omfgz we gave Wardens a bunch of really useless aa's but yesterday I met one who still LIKED his class! oO We must do something! Quick! Nerf them!"I agree with you in every point, Bratface. I was never interested in DPS but to see that Furies do a LOT more damage AND can heal/buff as good as we can makes me really sad. There is simply no point in playing the Warden anymore.</div>

[Barand]

Do something about warden please !!If you have time to nerf something that was not overpowered at all and was maybe the first usefull skill we had in one year and 3 expansion, maybe you will have time to look at what warden are now and what their role in raid is !!<div></div>

[Bumpfuzz]

<P>I am shocked and a little appalled.</P> <P>The warden EoF tree needs <EM>massive</EM> amounts of work.  Sink 50 points into the tree and compare the effectiveness with a warden with 0 AAs - it's almost unnoticable.  Our CA tree doesn't increase our damage (in some cases, lowers it).  Our Rez line other than Bat and Spores offers little to no improvement.  Nature's Walk doesn't seem to function on anything in PVE (not to mention you're essentially spending 18 AAs to make sure your roots have a marginally better chance of landing...).  </P> <P>There was one line that people felt actually provided <EM>something</EM>.  Not a lot, mind you, but it was <EM>something</EM>.  Despite all the <STRONG>glaring</STRONG> problems with the entire tree, when you come to tweak it the only thing you do is <EM>nerf</EM> the one semi-decent tree?  We have no way to increase damage, no way to increase healing, and now no marginally useful buff.  What exactly is the EOF tree supposed to accomplish?!</P> <P>I have a total of 10 characters (yes, major alt-itis).  For 9 of those characters, I really like their trees.  They are so full of good abilities that I really have to sit down and think about how I want to spend my points, because there's so much I want.  How could you guys have so many great ideas for 23 classes in the game, yet so utterly drop the ball on one?  I don't get it.</P> <P>Rethink this nerf, and while you're at it, rethink the <EM>entire Warden EOF tree</EM>.  Give us ways to increase our damage.   Give us ways to increase our group support capabilities.  Give us a way, like every class receives, to improve our character with our next 50 AA points.</P>

[pkdri]

<DIV>Unbelievable. I thought it was apparent wardens needed help and was really expecting to see some improvement to get them in line this update.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was absolutely shocked to see this change. It makes the only useful line effectively useless. The change for the non-phys buffs is fine but those were fairly irrelevant anyway. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With Nature's Walk either broken (or if as intended worthless) I don't find I have anything I care to spend my points on. An utterly depressing situation...I love the excitement of working towards something to improve the Char and this is the nail in the coffin to that interest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although my perspective is from a raiding or challenging group content, even the other offerings do not provide any meaningful boost. While I have to admit the run speed is fun...if there were any decent options it would be my last choice as it is basically novelty which will wear off fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The sad part is even a reversal of this would not set things straight as we were in need of help as it was.</DIV>

[Goozman]

<DIV>The change is stupid. The cure lines for Mystics, Templars, and Wardens will all suck now. If they get around to fixing mitigation, I could understand a small nerf... like reduced duration; but this change makes em pretty lame. Rather than nerfing the warden cure lines, they should be beefing up the other 2 class's cure lines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>p.s. You don't have to exaggerate about other classes to get your point across. I don't think anyone in the game would be for this dumb nerf.</DIV>

[Lunaya]

Devs, are you even considering to improve the Warden class with the next few patches?If not, please post it, so we can finally give up and betray to Fury.<div></div>

[Xylass]

Could any one pls  Tell us Why the Cures where not over powered thay are nice how thay are now before live update 30Skywise70th Warden70th Tailor<div></div>

[Ahlspiess]

<P>I think this is a bad idea. The resistance buff will be gone in the first 5 seconds. With the diminishing returns the buff gave ~2%. So 2% for 5 seconds is a worthless line. </P> <P>The only AA's worth taking would be Spirit of the bat and Spores. And those aren't that great.</P> <P> </P>

[gita]

please reconsider the way changed this.There its other ways to nerf it without making the wardens cure line complete useless, reduce the duration from 1 minute to 36 secs or reduce the amount mitigation bufed from 525 to 400, 350.... but just 3 hits its way to much, on a raid mob 3 hits are done in no more then 4-5 secs. None warden gonna cast single cure trauma and group cure each 4-5 secs, we are healers not buff-bots.Please <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div>

[Naithik]

<P>Before you nerf the only desirable warden AA line, could you please take a look at other healers?</P> <P>shaman gets a safefall, and faster sow (for the same AA cost as wardens.</P> <P>fury overall vs warden, might be a good idea to look at those. From what i've heard, and seen, fury AAs can boost their dps a lot, they also got a root. Now take a look at wardens.. they had that nice AA line, which made them a defensive druid, and now it is all gone (let's be honest, nobody will keep those cures up).</P> <P>Fury seems to be right where it should be, a healer with nice offensive capacities, but wardens seem to be unbalanced now, since they don't add much more defensive capacity, and can't add damage as much as a fury can.</P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway, could a dev please explain the change? maybe we are all missing something that needs to be explained.</P>

[jka]

<P>I am disappointed that the change is coming to the cure line. It's not that the line defined a warden but the line helped to give a warden a definition or a direction for  other classes for group and raiding roles, for the frist time since t5. With this change being made, many wardens will now have to justify their spots on raids.</P> <P>Whereas in general gameplay, the change may not affected many, for a raiding warden changing the only true benefit outside of fluff to useless just makes many wardens feel as if their class is the one healer class which soe has decided to break. </P> <P>Now I shall go back online and have to say... omg.. I sorry I am only a warden to groups and raids. I can heal my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off... is that good enough? For many the answer will be no... you see in a game designed for grouping, buffs or lack of buffs and abilities to enhance other classes are important factors. Yes.. I confess in general groupings or casual groupings.. your class may not matter. Yet, even in these groups, how many healers do you usually bring? </P> <P>As for a response from anyone regarding the warden class... lol. </P>

[Aandien]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naithik wrote:<BR> <P>Anyway, could a dev please explain the change? maybe we are all missing something that needs to be explained.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You actually answered this question yourself.  Here it is:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naithik wrote:<BR> <P>Before you nerf <STRONG>the only desirable warden AA line</STRONG>, could you please take a look at other healers?<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>AA's are supposed to provide choices.  There should not be any one line that the majority feels is the most valuable.  It should be a heavily debated topic on which AA line is better than another.  If it isn't heavily debated, then it's out of balance.<BR>

[pkdri]

<DIV>The more I think of it the more I don't understand how this has come about. Even if they thought they had to change this for some reason that is not apparent to me, it certainly should come with a better explanation of how the Warden lines would be adjusted to usefulness. Classic case of kicking someone while they are down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree that SOTB and spores are the only useful items that remain but while nice they are hardly too much to be excited about from a wow factor standpoint. And sadly, they were my 3rd priority before reality has jumped up and given me a crack on the head. I had thought my path would be Cures/Natures Walk/ then SOTB-Spores... and I wasn't crazy about that as it was, now it has evaporated to SOTB/Spores then bleh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And in response to alternatives to nerfing this ... I personally would have not like any reduction in duration...didn't enjoy the spamming and the lack of an easy way to notice when it was down. And as far as amount of mit... with the current diminishing returns don't know that it was really enough from a MT perspective but it is nice for anyone not on the tough part of the curve.<BR></DIV>

[Lunaya]

<div><blockquote><hr>AncientElster schrieb:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Naithik wrote: <div></div> <p>Anyway, could a dev please explain the change? maybe we are all missing something that needs to be explained.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>You actually answered this question yourself.  Here it is:</p> <blockquote> <hr> Naithik wrote: <div></div> <p>Before you nerf <strong>the only desirable warden AA line</strong>, could you please take a look at other healers?</p> <hr> </blockquote>AA's are supposed to provide choices.  There should not be any one line that the majority feels is the most valuable.  It should be a heavily debated topic on which AA line is better than another.  If it isn't heavily debated, then it's out of balance.<hr></blockquote>Yes, but this is not because the cure line was so uber. It is because the other lines are so useless for a group-oriented warden.</div>

[MysidiaDrakkenbane]

<DIV>*big frowny face* Why do you hate us, Devs? Why? You've given us hope in actually providing a good utility for a raid and now... it's worthless. Three hits is too low! Seriously. Leave us alone! Pick on another class.</DIV>

[Lunaya]

We want an answer from the devs! <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div>

[civilgeek]

<DIV> <P><SPAN>It's not because one  line is uber... its because the majority of the warden AA's are PVP based. Those of us that are on PVE servers (what 90% of the total wardens out there) could care less about these lines. We want group buffs, heal enhancements, and raid usefulness.  This line was the only one that was adequate in doing any of these things other than the spores buff.  A raid could care less if they can run at 45% run speed as epics disregard run speed, I can't root epics, and a melee spec'ed warden would get a butt kickin trying to come toe to toe with an epic.  On PVE most the AA's are completely useless. No new functionality and no new tactics we can employ.  The cure line fell right in with a warden as we were to be the defensive druid! Now for 40 or so of the EOF AA's I truelly don't know where to put them for PVE.  It is depressing. I've played my warden since the inception of EQ2... been through the ups and downs.  But had to finally speak out because it is truelly getting rediculous.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>So before you mock us with the fact we shouldn't easily be able to choose... look at the lines first and those of us that are complaining (PVE).</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Haldir - 70 Warden - Oasis</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Leader of the Golden Rose of Qeynos</SPAN></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by civilgeek on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:45 AM</span>

[Fromingo]

No offense but what is the point of this change.  Dimishing returns already put a brake on this becoming some uber powerful ability.  After a certain amount of mitigation it's not really worth using.  

[Vellek]

<P>It is almost like the developers want us to quit. This is why I hate nerfs so bad. How many times have they given us something then said oh, wait thats not good enough so here <upgrade>? Even the few things they claimed as upgrades (DT loot) were actually huge nerfs to most of the items and small upgrades to some totally useless items.</P> <P>It is like giving candy to a baby then after he tastes it, taking it away from him. It totally sucks. The Warden AA lines were nice, but not broken. They werent game breaking. In an expansion where resists are so important it provided us with a little extra help getting there. </P> <P>Mayong and Wuoshi still havent been beaten. The Avatars are unbeatable. AEs are hitting raid members for 8-12k dmg. Obviously the new set armor and other EOF gear will help with resists on these mobs, but I still fail to see the urgency to implement this warden nerf. </P> <P>IMO nerfs should be avoided at all costs. It is very discouraging to have your class nerfed and causes many players to quit. If it is some game breaking item or ability that causes totally unfair game advantages for players, that is one thing, but this is a far cry from that. I think SOE devs have a bad habbit of nerfing everything they think gives one player or class even a slight advantage over another. The thing is it is impossible to balace out every class. Some will be better, some will not, but its all in the gamers choice and style of play as to what character he or she wants to play. Some players will play a class that isnt quite as good as another simply because they enjoy that class type better. That is acceptable and healthy for the game. Constantly nerfing classes is not. You nerf one class then another becomes more powerful. Then you nerf that and a 3rd class is now "overpowered". Eventually every class gets nerfed and the cycle continues. </P> <P>When does it stop? Unfortunately after 2 years it hasnt. </P>

[Lunaya]

I have no idea where I should spend my points now after the nerf. I don't need anything from the EoF Tree besides spores and bat, so... *shrug*<div></div>

[iceriven2]

this is among many reasons wardens are becomig more rare then shamans.  

[Isard]

<P>It would be easier to take this nerf if they gave us something back in return.  It always seems its take, take, take and never any actual fix.  Oh wait, they did reduce the reuse timer on Tranquility.  Too bad it still doesn't actually DO what its supposed to.</P> <P> </P> <P>Where is the love?  What did we do to make them hate us so?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Oldlore]

It's pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sad when after a few mediocre upgrades (SoW, spores, spirit of the bat), I can't think of anything else I'd want to spend my EoF AAs on.  I figured the cure AAs would help on the 1-2x a week I raid...they're certainly of limited use solo or in groups.  Now they're pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] useless in groups and mildly helpful on raids...for an investment of 25-ish points.I thought my berserker's EoF AA line sucked, but the warden one's just fallen below it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Nezumigami]

<P>                         :smileysad:      :smileysad:      :smileysad:      :smileysad:      :smileysad:      :smileysad:      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>  </P>

[Nezumigami]

<P>                         :smileysad:      :smileysad:      :smileysad:      :smileysad:      :smileysad:      :smileysad:      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>      :smileysad:</P> <P>                            </P>

[Shakko]

Honestly the nerf isn't as apocalyptic as it sounds, three procs per damage type will last at least a lil' while on everything other than trauma.  The thing I find most discouraging is the fact that the devs have repeatedly shown a lack of interest in tweaking and putting careful thought into wardens.  Rather than getting random boosts like our counterpart (not hating, just pulling up an example), we get completely random and out of the blue nerfs.  It would be nice to occasionally read something that excites me about a change with wardens, but the more we develop, the more vanilla it seems we turn.I need to update my signature...<div></div>

[Ahlspiess]

<P>I think the problem stems from a lack of being useful in raids. There isn't anything wardens can do that another class can't do better if this goes into effect. The reason why most wardens are angry is the new aa cure line addressed that issue and now it doesn't.</P> <P>As far as the AA's the melee line isn't good in PvE I have no idea how useful it is in PvP. Why would a warden joust a mob for less DPS then a ranged attack? Especially when they risk an AoE. Nature's walk doesn't appear to effect any epic mobs for the KB effect and who cares about roots? </P> <P>The Stun immunity can't be cast while stunned anymore. Tortoise Shell doesn't work. The agility debuff on the root doesn't land on epics and when the root breaks the debuff is over. The whole death prevention thing is useless (2 spells). Did I miss anything?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Amitee]

All my enjoyment of my Warden has practically gone out the window with the combat changes/EoF release.  I have enjoyed this game all the way up til then, and now I have my Warden in a semi-stasis of not knowing what to do with her.  I've put a ton of work into her, a ton of plat, a ton of hours, not to mention all the people who put in a ton of their time to help me out on quests and other things to get there.Like all the combat changes hit hard, but I figured I could deal with it when I got over a bit of temper.  I feel like alot of my hard work got set back.  But I did what I could do, and trudged forward.  The AA lines really disappointed me and I mirror what others have said before me.  I don't want to melee either.  I would love to have spell damage AA's, *better* cure AA's, buff AA's (especially group mitigation buff).  I really don't understand the SoW upgrades across the board.  I use a mount and never buff SoW in dungeons anyway, and no one but the puller has ever asked for it.   I would have loved AA's on healing....I feel like my ability to keep a group up has gone downhill with the release of all this stuff, and there's not alot helping us get back up to par.  Larger power pools are worthless IMO.  Wardens are not hurting in power management.  Alot of other things have been a letdown as well.  What is with +healing stuff?  That's not even worth going out of my way to get.  It's flubbed up with every Warden heal having a HoT attached to it since it works off 3 second casts and broken up per tick on HoT-type spells.  Or maybe it's working as intended?  I don't know.  +10 Ministration saves me 4-5 power on heals...wow...especially when spells cost over 300 power in some cases.  There doesn't seem to be a whole lot that has come into play with EoF/combat changes that is allowing me to progress my Warden.  Everything I loot is so minimal in upgrades, I'm already past the soft cap of wisdom....  I swear, the biggest upgrades I've gotten (it feels like - and yes I am being emotional) were the extra earring slot and the cloak slot.I'm getting disgruntled to the point I don't want to play anymore.   My character now does nothing but writs and farm shinies.  I haven't wanted to group over the last several days and at this point I will give it until after the holidays to see how things go.  I feel like my character has been knocked down a few notches in effectiveness and I can't for the life of me get back up.  <div></div>

[MysidiaDrakkenbane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amitee wrote:<BR>All my enjoyment of my Warden has practically gone out the window with the combat changes/EoF release.  I have enjoyed this game all the way up til then, and now I have my Warden in a semi-stasis of not knowing what to do with her.  I've put a ton of work into her, a ton of plat, a ton of hours, not to mention all the people who put in a ton of their time to help me out on quests and other things to get there.<BR><BR>Like all the combat changes hit hard, but I figured I could deal with it when I got over a bit of temper.  I feel like alot of my hard work got set back.  But I did what I could do, and trudged forward.  The AA lines really disappointed me and I mirror what others have said before me.  I don't want to melee either.  I would love to have spell damage AA's, *better* cure AA's, buff AA's (especially group mitigation buff).  I really don't understand the SoW upgrades across the board.  I use a mount and never buff SoW in dungeons anyway, and no one but the puller has ever asked for it.   I would have loved AA's on healing....<BR><BR>I feel like my ability to keep a group up has gone downhill with the release of all this stuff, and there's not alot helping us get back up to par.  Larger power pools are worthless IMO.  Wardens are not hurting in power management.  <BR><BR>Alot of other things have been a letdown as well.  What is with +healing stuff?  That's not even worth going out of my way to get.  It's flubbed up with every Warden heal having a HoT attached to it since it works off 3 second casts and broken up per tick on HoT-type spells.  Or maybe it's working as intended?  I don't know.  +10 Ministration saves me 4-5 power on heals...wow...especially when spells cost over 300 power in some cases.  There doesn't seem to be a whole lot that has come into play with EoF/combat changes that is allowing me to progress my Warden.  Everything I loot is so minimal in upgrades, I'm already past the soft cap of wisdom....  I swear, the biggest upgrades I've gotten (it feels like - and yes I am being emotional) were the extra earring slot and the cloak slot.<BR><BR>I'm getting disgruntled to the point I don't want to play anymore.   My character now does nothing but writs and farm shinies.  I haven't wanted to group over the last several days and at this point I will give it until after the holidays to see how things go.  I feel like my character has been knocked down a few notches in effectiveness and I can't for the life of me get back up.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I feel the same way you do. It's so disheartening to find this out, after I spent countless hours of my time (and guildies) to help get my cure line up and running. Now I'm looking at my other alts and wondering which one will take my warden's place as my main. They have literally taken a class that I love so dearly and turned it into something that is a fraction of what she used to be. It's sad...very sad.

[GinFan]

<DIV>I agree with the OP.  From what I can tell, this nerf has disheartened Wardens everywhere.  Not because it was by any means uber, but because it was something positve that added a little distinction. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this is a ploy to make Warden's happy by reversing the decision last moment, it is a lazy ineffective one.  It simply served to remind us that we were in need of improvement prior to all this hub-bub.</DIV>

[Azhure]

<DIV>IMHO if  <STRONG>Enhance: Ancient Sylph - improves reuse speed by 20s per rank up to rank 5</STRONG> seems to be for me one of the best of our AAs SOMETHING HAS TO BE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lyonesse 70 warden on Oasis</DIV>

[Lunaya]

<div></div>The biggest joke of all is that:<img src="http://www.mangalon.com/bilder/joke.jpg">3 secondsAt rank 5 it will be what? 15 seconds?15 seconds out of 15 minutes!woot!Another waste of 5 achievement points<div></div><p>Nachricht bearbeitet von Lunaya am <span class=date_text>12-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:53 PM</span>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div>uhhh it's a 1 minute and 30s recast normally and has a minute duration so that essentially cuts the time you can't have the spell up in half which is actually pretty good provided you can put up with the whining about the tree's graphic.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Dragonrealms on <span class=date_text>12-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:59 PM</span>

[Lunaya]

Hmm... okay! I don't have this spell yet but I was told it's reuse timer is about 15 minutes. So I was ill-informed. Thanks for correcting me.I thought it has to be a joke. 3 seconds! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[FuzzBall]

<div></div>This is a disgusting change.  So far, Im been far than impressed by the Warden AA lines.  Theyre weak and dont really add a single thing to healing abilities.  The ONLY thiing that I did like about them was the Verdant Gasp changes.  What SoE gave us was a nice bonus to the continual nerf-batting to death of the Warden.  As per usual, tahts now been taken away and were now offered this half-[Removed for Content] mostly-broken Stoneskin but with an awful mit, hit limit and HUGE power cost.Yet again, the SoE devs (Im guessing Lockeye) have taken a personal distaste to the Warden.  Its NOT on.  Youve taken the two classes I loved, the Brig/Warden and turned them into the laughing stock.  I have rangers laughing at my brig "HAHA, your AR still uber?" and now at my Warden "HAHA, your huge AA mit bonus does nothing for all that cost"Thanks SoE, Thanks for nothing.  Go pick on another class, youve picked on the Warden far too hard for far too long.<div></div><p>Message Edited by FuzzBall on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:52 AM</span>

[Roux]

<DIV>As a 70 Fury I look at this change a little differently.  The extra DPS Fury's have is not all that great considering that we are still wearing a potatoe sack for armor. Wardens have always out healed, out warded and out buffed Furys. I didn't hear any complaining when that was the case. Its about time Wardens got hit with the bat.</DIV> <DIV> Now Please don't take this post as a flame or an attack, its not. I do know how you feel...I felt the same way when they nerfed Fury dps. It blows to get nerfed, but I'm sure they will give a reason... or at least I hope they do. </DIV>

[Lunaya]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Roux11 schrieb:<div>As a 70 Fury I look at this change a little differently.  The extra DPS Fury's have is not all that great considering that we are still wearing a potatoe sack for armor. Wardens have always out healed, out warded and out buffed Furys. I didn't hear any complaining when that was the case. Its about time Wardens got hit with the bat.</div> <div> Now Please don't take this post as a flame or an attack, its not. I do know how you feel...I felt the same way when they nerfed Fury dps. It blows to get nerfed, but I'm sure they will give a reason... or at least I hope they do. </div><hr></blockquote>That has already changed a long time ago (about 1,5 years).We do not heal better than Furies. We have no better buffs. We don't even have wards. Oo Have you ever played a Warden?We have slightly more mitigation due to some buffs, that's right, and Furies do a LOT more dps in return.Why do you think there are at least twice the numbers of Fury players?We are still good healers, but we are not better than Furies. I already knew that when I rolled my second warden (I had one about 1,5 years ago before the combat changes, it was fun). But the worst thing is that our EoF tree has nothing to offer but crap now.We are not asking for Furies to get nerfed, but we seriously need an improvement. Give us some useful achievement abilities that help us to fulfill the role of the defensive healing-druid we once were and we will be happy. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />SOE gave us all that mitigation improvements, CAs and extra hit chance, but people, who played the Warden since release, don't want their class to be changed that way. There are a lot of Wardens who don't want to melee. Me included.And look: So many crying people can't be wrong <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p>Nachricht bearbeitet von Lunaya am <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:00 PM</span>

[Roux]

In all fairness I have to say your right.. I have not played a Warden so the info I am going by is what I read and have seen in Raids. Don't most the Heals in a Wardens have a HoT element? I know that there is always a Warden in the main tank group in our raids due to buffs. And looking at the parse of fights Our Wardens have always way out healed the Furies.. ( granted, alot of that has to do with being in the MT group.heheh ).

[Oakum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lunaya wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Roux11 schrieb:<BR> <DIV>As a 70 Fury I look at this change a little differently.  The extra DPS Fury's have is not all that great considering that we are still wearing a potatoe sack for armor. Wardens have always out healed, out warded and out buffed Furys. I didn't hear any complaining when that was the case. Its about time Wardens got hit with the bat.</DIV> <DIV> Now Please don't take this post as a flame or an attack, its not. I do know how you feel...I felt the same way when they nerfed Fury dps. It blows to get nerfed, but I'm sure they will give a reason... or at least I hope they do. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That has already changed a long time ago (about 1,5 years).<BR>We do not heal better than Furies. We have no better buffs. We don't even have wards. Oo Have you ever played a Warden?<BR>We have slightly more mitigation due to some buffs, that's right, and Furies do a LOT more dps in return.<BR>Why do you think there are at least twice the numbers of Fury players?<BR><BR>We are still good healers, but we are not better than Furies. I already knew that when I rolled my second warden (I had one about 1,5 years ago before the combat changes, it was fun). But the worst thing is that our EoF tree has nothing to offer but crap now.<BR>We are not asking for Furies to get nerfed, but we seriously need an improvement. Give us some useful achievement abilities that help us to fulfill the role of the defensive healing-druid we once were and we will be happy. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>SOE gave us all that mitigation improvements, CAs and extra hit chance, but people, who played the Warden since release, don't want their class to be changed that way. There are a lot of Wardens who don't want to melee. Me included.<BR><BR>And look: So many crying people can't be wrong <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR><BR></DIV> <P>Nachricht bearbeitet von Lunaya am <SPAN class=date_text>12-15-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:00 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Have to agree that, with the nerf to the AA, wardens are definitely on the less needed catagory. Far as healing parses go, it all depends on who is in the MT group. If its our lvl 70 fury, they out heal me and vice versa. </P> <P>The CA's do not give as much DPS as nuking does from those who have tested it from the messages I have seen plus they are only adept 1 equivelant to the nuke version (most of mine being mastered)  but have longer recast timers unless they have been changed since beta. </P> <P>The Fury can heal just as well as a warden, can out dps a warden so contribute more that way when not healing, has a very big 36  sec mit buff AND can buff a DPS group better. The only difference is there is that the warden will be more power efficient and so heal slightly longer as long as we are not having to heal with group heals/regens as they are very draining. </P> <P>With the enhance cures now we are about equal in the buffing catagory since the enhance cures line gave less then half of the mit buff of urchin, we could still heal since we are not stunned. Granted, with the diminishing returns, the huge mit buff from urchin is less effective but so is the smaller warden aa mit so it balances out. After the nerf, it will be just a power waste if someone trys to keep it on the tank since it wont last but 3 hits which is what? 3 seconds?</P> <P>As far as dps groups, hands down the fury is a better choice since they give better dps buffs. </P> <P>So to sum it up.</P> <P> Now:</P> <P>Warden had a slight edge over Fury for MT group due to enhance cures and power efficency for healing.</P> <P>Fury is hands down better then warden in the DPS groups. </P> <P>After changes:</P> <P>Fury and warden interchangable for MT group with fury being prefered if damage avoidance before a mob is debuffed is more important then healing effiency over time. </P> <P>Fury best for dps groups and doing extra DPS while not healing to help kill mobs quicker. Warden may be put in a DPS group if the fury  is only temporarily in the MT group for certain mobs but, if the Fury is in the MT group permanently, the warden will be asked to sit the raids out if another healing class is available to take their place in the raid as the buffs they give can be more important for a DPS OR an off tank group. </P> <P>. </P> <P> </P>

[Oldlore]

Seriously, it's mindboggling.  A 2-3% resist boost for....3 hits?  For 25 AAs if you get them all?  It has almost no use whatsoever outside of raids and minimal benefit on those too now.  Let's say you save 2% of a 3k hit - 60 dmg? x3 for 180 dmg?  That's a tier2 heal or 1 spores proc....UBER!  What's even worse is that the rest of the line is pretty much garbage for most wardens.  I don't need melee CAs when I have 3 single target spells on short recasts.  I have 2 roots I can use to keep a mob immobilized for a reason.  1/3 of our line will be useless cures, 1/3 useless (to most) CAs, and 1/3 will have a few semi useful upgrades (spores, sotb, sow) and more garbage.<div></div>

[Lunaya]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Oldlore schrieb:Let's say you save 2% of a 3k hit - 60 dmg? x3 for 180 dmg?  That's a tier2 heal or 1 spores proc....<div></div><hr></blockquote>Be careful what you say,  otherwise they will nerf spores and tier2 heals!!!11 <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p>Nachricht bearbeitet von Lunaya am <span class=date_text>12-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:26 AM</span>

[Barand]

what makes me angry is the lack of answerover a year and no message from a dev about warden. <div></div>

[Prrasha]

AA points are supposed to improve your character. I can spend AA points across various trees on all my alts to *improve* them in some visible way. I can actually spend 1/5 of my total AA points on combat arts in the EoF warden tree, and wind up with LESS DPS than I started with, and three hotbar abilities made useless (a snare and two roots)? All to save a tiny bit of casting time? This is beyond ridicule. I can't believe any thought was put into this at all.Wardens have gotten the short end of the stick on DPS, on Ancient Teachings spells, and 3/4 of the EoF Achievements. Now they're finishing the job on those.I'm not betraying to Fury for roleplay reasons, but it sure is painful to play my warden now knowing what he _should_ be compared to what SoE has made him. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[MullenSkywatcher]

My warden is semi-retired until I can level up another healer to take his place (looking like my 30 defiler atm).  I'll come back if they decide to fix something, prolly in the next expansion a year from now.  If they decide to nerf defilers, I think I'll just cancel my two accounts and move on.  Left eq1 because it was too much of a time sink and starting to think that the devs cant figure out how to make wardens fun.<div></div>

[Lunaya]

I think it is a great sign of ignorance not getting an answer from the devs about this whole misery. Do they really care? It doesn't seem so.<div></div>

[Shakko]

Just a shot in the dark here, but uh, Mr. and Mrs. Developers, you realize that the 15% (8% for trauma) mitigation for each of the status buffs doesn't actually end up translating to that much?I'd understand the nerf IF the buffs increased the mitigation by that actual percentage rather than a static mitigation number.  But it dun'.  I guess I don't understand why it ends up being 1050 mitigation from a supposed 15% increase--if you punch in the numbers, it's basing all of the percentages off of 7000.  Again, not sure why that's such a magical number, but I'm sure someone will clear that up for me--either way, I still think it's beside the point.  Perhaps the -best- thing to do to rationalize this nerf is to 'fix' the buffs to increase the mitigation percentage by the actual listed percentage, even if that means a subsequent nerfing of that percentage (not below 10% though, please.  remember, it's christmas and we've been good boys and girls.  most of us.  also, we'll leave out milk and cookies.)I'm actually level 70.  It lies! <div></div>

[Xylass]

Pls Anyone Why is this needed ? It was a Good upgrade with how the cures worked. If it uped the mit of the MT in a group than Take that away. I want to have, to push the Crue's less and get back to the healing. More like what this class is for the best Heal over time. So in the long Run we have power to keep fighting not haveing used it all on cure's.If this is not the Warden Class pls Tell Me what Class is. I want to play the healing class that save's the groups Lives after the others are all used up.Upset WardenSkywise70th Warden70th Tailor

[TimidMou]

<P>Two comments. First, the devs spent so much effort making this nerf come about for the perceived overpower of the warden cure line, yet spent no time fixing the clear and obvious problem with the movement line. I can only assume that the devs are UNAWARE of the movement line bug, and so, I urge all wardens to /petition this so that at least it gets fixed. If they are going to nerf our overpowered AAs, they should fix our underpowered or totally non-functional ones!</P> <P>Second, I heard from a friend that the reason why the devs are giving wardens a hard time is a matter of revenge against wardens for whining and complaining all the time in eq1 and getting other healers nerfed. So they are paying back wardens in eq2 for the things that wardens did in eq1. This is just a rumor and I have no idea of the veracity of it since I didn't play eq1 very much.</P>

[Lunaya]

<div><blockquote><hr>TimidMouse schrieb:<div></div> <p>Two comments. First, the devs spent so much effort making this nerf come about for the perceived overpower of the warden cure line, yet spent no time fixing the clear and obvious problem with the movement line. I can only assume that the devs are UNAWARE of the movement line bug, and so, I urge all wardens to /petition this so that at least it gets fixed. If they are going to nerf our overpowered AAs, they should fix our underpowered or totally non-functional ones!</p> <p>Second, I heard from a friend that the reason why the devs are giving wardens a hard time is a matter of revenge against wardens for whining and complaining all the time in eq1 and getting other healers nerfed. So they are paying back wardens in eq2 for the things that wardens did in eq1. This is just a rumor and I have no idea of the veracity of it since I didn't play eq1 very much.</p><hr></blockquote>OoCan it be true?I played EQ1 for about a few weeks (although it was fun) and never posted in the forums. I dont want to be punished for something, Ive never done. Childish...</div>

[MysidiaDrakkenbane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TimidMouse wrote:<BR> <P>Two comments. First, the devs spent so much effort making this nerf come about for the perceived overpower of the warden cure line, yet spent no time fixing the clear and obvious problem with the movement line. I can only assume that the devs are UNAWARE of the movement line bug, and so, I urge all wardens to /petition this so that at least it gets fixed. If they are going to nerf our overpowered AAs, they should fix our underpowered or totally non-functional ones!</P> <P>Second, I heard from a friend that the reason why the devs are giving wardens a hard time is a matter of revenge against wardens for whining and complaining all the time in eq1 and getting other healers nerfed. So they are paying back wardens in eq2 for the things that wardens did in eq1. This is just a rumor and I have no idea of the veracity of it since I didn't play eq1 very much.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your second reason can't be true. There were no wardens in EQ1. We were Druids and we rocked. There was no need for complaints.

[TimidMou]

I meant druids. More than that I cannot say since I am getting second source info. Suffice it to say I know there are at least some ppl with a big grudge against druids.

[Bratface]

I played a raiding Druid (and an alt Cleric) in EQ1 until launch of EQ2 and the whole Druid thing in EQ1 was a tricky deal, but basically it came down to Clerics being burned out having to cast a CH over and over in raids, so SOE decided to attempt the "heal-balance" to get the load of clerics, but then clerics whined about giving others heals when Druids had ports and SoW..... Like that ever balanced out after PoP.... Clerics had modest utility compared to Druids and Shaman but they were unwilling to give better healing to other classes in exchange for more utility, they wanted to be the only healer AND have equal or near equal utility which didnt' set well with Druids or Shaman.But the healing never got balanced, they gave Shaman really nice heals compared to druids and  SOE tossed a few regens with long recasts and hardly any real heal value to Druids and called it done.Mind you I haven't been back since the launch of EQ2 but I do have friends and I try to keep up with some things in case I ever get tired of this game, I do remember the top Druid on my server (BB) once said that more than one Druid on a raid was a waste and it was true, I saw it every days when we raided (I was class leader) we just had nothign to do but debuff (didn't stack) and send in a Uni-Boo Boo (our bear with an AA damage shield on them) once in a while as an agro sacrafice.Anyway, Dev's never really loved Druids cause they had no idea what to do with them to give them a place in the game that wasn't a PL bot or forage bot...We did rock in a lot of ways, but it was true that more than one Druid on a raid was a waste, after buff;s were MGB'd there wasnt' much left for a Druid to do back then... But I still love my EQ1 druid above all other toons I have ever had <3ymmv<div></div>

[Sylphier]

Add me to the number of disgrunteled wardens that will betray when this goes live, or maybe sooner b/c imo the warden class was broken before this. EQ2 is run by lab monkeys, can't wait 'til Vangaurd!<div></div>

[Cherena]

Just adding my voice to the chorus of complaints about this.  blah<div></div>

[Ba]

<P>As a Fury, I feel opposed to this AA cure line change and I support my Warden brothers and sisters in their protest.</P> <P>However..</P> <P>Please, folks, enough with the wild and incorrect claims already. Furies <U>cannot</U> heal as well as Wardens. There is a difference of around 10-15% in favor of the Wardens in the overall healing arena (not necessarily in HPS, lots of things cannot be measured by that number).</P> <P>Most of the more experienced druids will know this already but don't confuse the newcomers.</P>

[civilgeek]

<P>I agree... I've never not been able to hold my own against a fury in dps if I gear for it. The difference comes with how we are usually geared.  Wardens are usually high wiz and furies high int (nature of our buffs).  If a warden wants to pump out some dps get your int up to around 500... spec out the int line in the kos tree and go to town. Don't forget them puppies either :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Haldir - 70 Warden - Oasis</P> <P>Leader of the Golden Rose of Qeynos</P><p>Message Edited by civilgeek on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:05 PM</span>

[MysidiaDrakkenbane]

<P>Still no word, yet? :smileymad: You pretty much have an entire class (gamewide) that would like to hear SOMETHING. I love my Warden. Don't ruin her further.</P> <P>*Looks at set of alts and considers another main*</P>

[Maledan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>sabutterworth wrote:<div></div><p>Please, folks, enough with the wild and incorrect claims already. Furies <u>cannot</u> heal as well as Wardens. There is a difference of around 10-15% in favor of the Wardens in the overall healing arena (not necessarily in HPS, lots of things cannot be measured by that number).</p><hr></blockquote>This is true when you compare the "standard" heals of both classes (small heal, large heal, group heal). Counting the up-front heal plus all HoT ticks, wardens indeed have the potential to heal 10-15% more than furies using the corresponding fury spells. Regarding the "special" heals, however, furies are on top with BitF and Hibernation, which are IMO significantly more useful than Spores and Tunare's Watch. Also with the proper AAs the furies' emergency heals are much better than the wardens'. All things considered, I think it balances out fairly well. Wardens have more potential overall healing in longer fights, while furies have better ways to react when things go wrong. Both classes have situations where one is clearly better than the other. So yes, I would say that furies heal as well as wardens.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Maledan on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 AM</span>

[Barand]

i think its time to call our great super heroe for a rescue mission !Come on Slayerwarrior !!! We need your help !!<div></div>

[Dragonreal]

omg no o_0 we're in trouble but not THAT bad =x<div></div>

[Goozman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maledan wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>This is true when you compare the "standard" heals of both classes (small heal, large heal, group heal). Counting the up-front heal plus all HoT ticks, wardens indeed have the potential to heal 10-15% more than furies using the corresponding fury spells.<BR><BR>Regarding the "special" heals, however, furies are on top with BitF and Hibernation, which are IMO significantly more useful than Spores and Tunare's Watch. Also with the proper AAs the furies' emergency heals are much better than the wardens'.<BR><BR>All things considered, I think it balances out fairly well. Wardens have more potential overall healing in longer fights, while furies have better ways to react when things go wrong. Both classes have situations where one is clearly better than the other. So yes, I would say that furies heal as well as wardens.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wardens actually heal roughly 40% more hp in the same time than Furies until level 52 through their primary heals, not a mere 10-15%. With the addition of back into the fray, Furies pull ahead. The final tally for spam healing shows Furies ahead of Wardens by 5% with the 3 spells vs 2; and the power cost is significantly more for a Fury.</P> <P>One of the boons a warden gets, I guess, is that a critical regen for them is a lot better than a critical regen for a Fury, because Furies' are fixed and Wardens' have a range. They also get a larger boost in their heals with a crit than a Fury does.</P> <P>I think there are definitely some improvements needed for Wardens, but as someone in another thread said, Wardens are wildly powerful in PvP and group play, so it's probably hard to give them some good abilities or aa's that will enhance their abilities or make them better in raids without making group content and pvp more trivial. (I personally think sandstorm should work in raids, with a reduced duration on the stuns or something)</P> <P>Poop</P><p>Message Edited by Goozman on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:13 PM</span>

[Maledan]

<div><blockquote><hr>Goozman wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Maledan wrote: <div></div> <blockquote>This is true when you compare the "standard" heals of both classes (small heal, large heal, group heal). Counting the up-front heal plus all HoT ticks, wardens indeed have the potential to heal 10-15% more than furies using the corresponding fury spells.Regarding the "special" heals, however, furies are on top with BitF and Hibernation, which are IMO significantly more useful than Spores and Tunare's Watch. Also with the proper AAs the furies' emergency heals are much better than the wardens'.All things considered, I think it balances out fairly well. Wardens have more potential overall healing in longer fights, while furies have better ways to react when things go wrong. Both classes have situations where one is clearly better than the other. So yes, I would say that furies heal as well as wardens.</blockquote> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Wardens actually heal roughly 40% more hp in the same time than Furies until level 52 through their primary heals, not a mere 10-15%. With the addition of back into the fray, Furies pull ahead. The final tally for spam healing shows Furies ahead of Wardens by 5% with the 3 spells vs 2; and the power cost is significantly more for a Fury.</p> <p>One of the boons a warden gets, I guess, is that a critical regen for them is a lot better than a critical regen for a Fury, because Furies' are fixed and Wardens' have a range. They also get a larger boost in their heals with a crit than a Fury does.</p> <p>I think there are definitely some improvements needed for Wardens, but as someone in another thread said, Wardens are wildly powerful in PvP and group play, so it's probably hard to give them some good abilities or aa's that will enhance their abilities or make them better in raids without making group content and pvp more trivial. (I personally think sandstorm should work in raids, with a reduced duration on the stuns or something)</p> <p>Poop</p><p>Message Edited by Goozman on <span class="date_text">12-19-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:13 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You're right there, a fury below 52 isn't quite up to par with other healers. I was assuming maxed characters when I posted the above. I hadn't thought about the warden's advantage when it comes to criticals... thanks for pointing that out.Regarding possible improvements, I think that two big areas need to be looked after: ancient/signature spells and EoF AAs. There are just too many spells in the book which are only marginally useful / highly situational, and thus get used very rarely, if at all.</div>

[denmom]

<div></div><div></div>Speaking up on the Fury vs Warden debate...I have a Fury, L56.  I fell in love with the debuffs and general fighting they can do. I tried a Warden but just didn't like that I couldn't debuff or hit as hard with attacks.But I chain heal like mad and do wind up low on power more times than I like.  Between casting attacks and heals in the duo with my spouse's Paladin I can drop to a quarter bar in a big fight (I love my Manastone).  I've learned to be fast on the heals and have been the single healer in a full group.  I know it's that I tend to play the caster role a lot in the duo and trio with tanks I've grouped with.  If I'm with one of my caster friends I take the role of healer and leave the casting to them.I tried a Warden again when my spouse made a Bruiser.  I'll admit to being very biased towards Fury then, but wanted a different healer type.  Then came fights...and omg...I could keep him healed and have more than enough left over to cast with.  Something I had huge issues with on my Fury.  I was honestly amazed and have developed a lot of respect for the Warden class.My Warden is now 34 and I've kept groups alive thru packs of yellows, whites, blues.  I've nearly lost a few, mostly due to when a door would shut or they were out of my range, but I don't have to do the chain healing that I do on my Fury.<div></div>Is one better than the other?   In the end, each has their own strengths and it depends on what you want.  I'll admit this, if going into a dungeon, I'd rather have my Warden than my Fury.  It's the HoTs.  Warden is a better healer but the Fury is the better caster.I just had to say something about the whole debate/arguement about Warden vs Fury.  I see this all the time on the chat channels on Unrest, someone asking which is better.  I tell them this: depends on what you want.  Healing over casting?  Warden.  Casting over healing? Fury.  But I tell them that ultimately it's what THEY want out of it, roll one of each and test drive.  That's the only way they will know which they like the best.I agree that the Warden nerf to AAs isn't good.  I look at what my Warden has and know that I won't open many of them.  The only ones I did open was the rez to get to Spirit of the Bat and Spores.  I duo with a Bruiser and that will help him more than me.  Her int and wis are already AA maxed but not sure what line I'll go down, if any.  But, this doesn't affect me as much as it appears to affect many others.  I don't raid and don't plan to.  Despite that, it's still a bleh move.Talked this over with a friend of mine and he suggested something: tanks have been aiming at mitigation for ages.  Now they have to aim at resists and many of them are building up their resists like mad.  What if the nerf to Warden cure AAs was because mixed with the tank and the rest in the party who have high resists the cures made it unbalanced?  This is just a theory, just an attempt to figure out why.Either way, I agree that a dev should say SOMETHING.  The silence is deafening.<p>Message Edited by denmom on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:35 AM</span>

[Barand]

i even pm lockeye with no answer ....<div></div>

[Elephanton]

<P>Very disappointed with this possible change</P> <P>I will just retire my warden if this change goes live</P>

[EasternKing]

<P>i<EM> can tell you now why there removing the aa line in its current form, its beacsue there mitigation curves are broken, but rather than fix them, they will remove your aa line</EM></P> <P><EM>As it currently stands the warden aa cure line is allowing cloth leather and chain to reach plate level mitigation absorbtion on the new curve system ...this and this alone is the reason there changing it.</EM></P> <P><EM>so lets be realistic here ...soe admit they messed up and fix a major game mechanic they just shunted onto live ..or to remove one of the things that shows how bad there brand new mitigation curves is borked ? i mean come on its a no brainer ...the change to avoidence should have spelt this change out as incoming in mile high letters to the warden community.</EM></P>

[MysidiaDrakkenbane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <P>i<EM> can tell you now why there removing the aa line in its current form, its beacsue there mitigation curves are broken, but rather than fix them, they will remove your aa line</EM></P> <P><EM>As it currently stands the warden aa cure line is allowing cloth leather and chain to reach plate level mitigation absorbtion on the new curve system ...this and this alone is the reason there changing it.</EM></P> <P><EM>so lets be realistic here ...soe admit they messed up and fix a major game mechanic they just shunted onto live ..or to remove one of the things that shows how bad there brand new mitigation curves is borked ? i mean come on its a no brainer ...the change to avoidence should have spelt this change out as incoming in mile high letters to the warden community.</EM></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have a much better idea. How about fixing the mitigation problem so that our cure line doesn't get a nerf at all? Nah...that'd make too much sense.</P> <P>Or...why not nerf all of the buffs that add mitigation? Why single us out? </P>

[civilgeek]

<P>Well folks they put it in today.  I find it very sad that an issue the entire warden community and even those outside the community don't want to see in the game makes it in regardless of what we've commented on (the people that play warden's day in and day out - your source of income).  We didn't say don't nerf it somehow... but more don't put this mechanic in game as specified in the update notes. Add hits to the trauma buff... make it a percentage... etc.  It truelly shows the lack of respect for the warden community. SOE at some point you need to give us a bone and let us know there is hope... we want to be defensive! We want defensive buffs and healing power. I could care less about dps or about going toe to toe with anything.  It would be nice if our root agi debuff stayed up regardless of the root component or we had a single buffdebuff that was worth something in raid. It shows that PVP should have never been implemented into this game as it is directing the choices we have in PVE (which player base is larger!). You may have it where you can tweak each of our spells to make it so you don't need to ballance individual spells based on PVP but you havn't worked out the problem of giving people the right choices for the server they play on.  I truelly wish PVE AA choices were entirely different from those on PVP as about 2/3's of the AA's in our warden tree simply don't make sense for a PVE warden. I wish all who choose to betray or reroll the best /boggle</P> <P> </P> <P>Haldir - 70 Warden - Oasis</P> <P>Leader of the Golden Rose of Qeynos</P>

[Obsydian]

Thank you SOE for completely screwing up the 1 decent thing we had with EoF.  This change has now made the cure line completely and utterly useless.  In order to even make this useable I will have to continuously spam any cure spells which is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]! Please make this line more useful!!!

[Iglind]

Yup this isnt cool devs. To me it is just another reason to not stay around. Bye game. After the nice spores and bat-spirit achievements, i thought the cures were the only ones left worth slowly gathering points for. Those, and maybe possibly the better run speed... oh well. SOE screws up the game, and tries to patch it up by fiddling with more things that arent really part of the problem in the first place. I see a pattern, but then i have seen the pattern for quite some time. Its just that now i had enough... <span>:smileymad:</span><div></div>

[Barand]

Warden community is too nice and calm. We should start making post entitled OMG [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] LOL !!!!!!! NERF UBER withj big capital letter so that maybe we get a reply<div></div>

[MysidiaDrakkenbane]

<P>Did this hit live or just test?</P> <P> </P> <P>/WTB Utility, PST!</P>

[pkdri]

<DIV>Not that it isn't useless anyway but... this change may be causing aggro as well. Didn't really test it out much but it seemed I was getting aggro on pull and didnt notice spores proc'ing so was thinking that the mechanism change may be causing aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any case don't think it matters but it would just be a further kick in the **** if it is true.</DIV>

[pkdri]

<DIV> <P>i<EM> can tell you now why there removing the aa line in its current form, its beacsue there mitigation curves are broken, but rather than fix them, they will remove your aa line</EM></P> <P><EM>As it currently stands the warden aa cure line is allowing cloth leather and chain to reach plate level mitigation absorbtion on the new curve system ...this and this alone is the reason there changing it.</EM></P> <P><EM>so lets be realistic here ...soe admit they messed up and fix a major game mechanic they just shunted onto live ..or to remove one of the things that shows how bad there brand new mitigation curves is borked ? i mean come on its a no brainer ...the change to avoidence should have spelt this change out as incoming in mile high letters to the warden community.</EM></P> <P><EM>****************************</EM></P> <P>I agree this was likely the main reason as opposed to a direct attack on Warden's. Unfortunately, as has been well voiced this leaves Warden's with a big bag of nothing when the bag was quite sparse to begin with.</P> <P>I understand needing to address a perceived problem but would appreciate some response regarding any plans (or lack of) to clean up the collateral damage. </P> <P>As a side note I would emphasize I thought raiding Warden's were already in need of some help prior to this change and agree with others' comments that PVP and Group play may be significantly affecting the raiding warden's options.</P></DIV>

[MysidiaDrakkenbane]

It would have been nice if we were given something in exchange for the nerf. We weren't given anything. Not even a free respec.

[netman]

<P>I've just cancel my account. </P> <P>30AA points useless is too much for me.</P> <P>I'm a raiding warden, in a PVE Game, not a soloer player in a PvP game. </P> <P> </P>

[pkdri]

<DIV>Was about to respec and thought I would just do some testing before I dumped the cures and found something else that adds to the uselessness. Perhaps it was already known by most but i didn't know that the buff still expires after 1 min. Takes away any creative uses for popping these on squishies before pull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Truly as I sit here it is really depressing to have no place to put my AA that is interesting (after spores and bat, which although nice I would expect to be my last 12 AA) ...this has taken the wind out of enjoyment for gaining AA xp. Got a lvl a bit ago and the situation just really hit me.</DIV>

[Dragonreal]

heh situation really hit me when I was sitting in antechamber of fate having a bid war with the other warden in guild over a 1hd sword and all the melees in guild going "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].." and the ranger going "uhh.. I just got that sword 2 weeks ago for min bid.. why are you fighting over it..?" At least it makes a raid leader happy when I break 1k dps lol<div></div>

[ThE_GuN]

Here's something they atleast could have given us in return...<blockquote><hr> Augmentation cast by the warden that greatly increases all offensive skills of an ally.<div></div><hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>Yep that's our "Primitive Instinct" spell, have you knowticed that it doesnt actualy buff aggression? Wouldnt that be an offensive skill?<div></div>

[Dragonreal]

I think aggression is more considered a spell-casting skill and therefore really wouldn't fit in with our buff unless you also want them to add ordination/disruption/subjugation as well and that's asking a bit much imo (not that we don't need something more though...). <div></div>

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <P><EM>As it currently stands the warden aa cure line is <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>allowing cloth leather and chain to reach plate level mitigation absorbtion</FONT> </STRONG>on the new curve system ...this and this alone is the reason there changing it.</EM><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What are you talking about again EK?</P> <P>At 50% level absorbation level by nature in a group reaches to 52%, <STRONG>show me single 52% plate mitigation in a group.</STRONG> For your info, it is also included in curve... So it is not broken, it is just you could not adapt yet.</P> <P>You are really ill informed at all your posts, but what you are saying in this thread is not different than I say "they should remove Dirge Parry buffs, Druid AGI buffs for not to allow Plates reaching chain / leather / cloth avoidance"</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>And btw, "a Cloth wearer, leather wearer can NEVER EVER reach to any plate mitigation, and BUG was about PLATE WEARERS that wears cloth reaching Plate values with their self-buffs, not cloth wearers that wear cloth, which is fixed" and has nothing to do with Warden AA line nerf.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>12-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:24 AM</span>