Contested perhaps not for the 24/7 raiders?

[Kaedion]

<DIV>I'm a member of a T7 raiding guild.  We're all having a wonderful time seeing our toons in new fantastic gear, and developing from struggling with raid encounters to dropping them faster each attempt.  I have assisted other high end guilds with some contested mobs, but would like to have a shot or two at some of these with my guild.  There are a few high end, much more hardcore, raiding guilds on the server that dominate the contested kills.  To compete with this we as a guild would have to either increase recuiting to unconfortably high numbers to ensure that enough people are on to scramble in the race to form up and attempt these mobs.  Or we would have to as all members to play more and wait around hoping for contested mobs to spawn.  Most of us do not wish to increase to these play hours, nor have our player base so high that many would miss our scheduled raiding.  Soooo...  one of our members had a nice idea, I'm sure there is good critisism to it, just want to put this out there.  What if the contested mobs, maybe not ALL, but a good sum of them respawned at the same time.  This would still be random, but would allow more guilds a shot at contested without having to race with all other high end guilds and most likely lose to the same old guilds time and time again.</DIV>

[Grrrrrrrrltwo]

<DIV>Yes somethign I notice is alot of the contested content seems to spawn 2 am cst.. 90% of the people i know on my server work daytimes and arent even logged in at this time.. meaning a few guilds have the opportunity to be logged on and ready at 2 am for these spawns... why have then on a schedual at all? Why not have it be a suprise? like randomly spawn once every 4-6 days or something to that extent. oh and as for the lag... hehe can they fix that too?</DIV>

[Dasein]

The purpose of contested mobs is not to provide content for even your average raid guild, it is to provide something for the 2-3 uber raid guilds on each server to argue about. For the rest of us, contested raid mobs might as well not exist.<div></div>

[Argyuile]

    Its not contested content its monopolized content.<div></div>

[Jida]

<div><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:The purpose of contested mobs is not to provide content for even your average raid guild, it is to provide something for the 2-3 uber raid guilds on each server to argue about. For the rest of us, contested raid mobs might as well not exist.<div></div><hr></blockquote>The problem I see with contested is the gear they drop is sometimes required for tanks to be the best they can be, therefore putting some raids completly outta reach for those who can not (or leadership doesnt want to fight the "uber" guilds for) contested.To reiteriate, loot progression should not require anything from contested raid mobs, to advance from one instanced raid mob to the next.</div>

[Xerxess]

I remember EQlive had this problem too atleast on my server where all the europeon guilds lock down the contested mobs at night. Though I forgot how they fixed the problem...but yeah maybe they respawn every so often at an odd hour instead of the same time day in and day out.<div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV>The best way to give many guilds a shot at contested is to create many contested. If EoF released 20 new contested. 10x4 and 10x2. It becomes quite impossibel w random timers for the top guild on your server to monopolize all 20. In T5 they had about 14 contested (but the timers were not random) and even then the lower tier guilds were able to lock down the x2 contested and had a few shots at the x4. Problem is KoS has a whooping 3 contested and no x2 contested (cept the cubes mobs, i know they are x4 but they should really be x2). You know whats great about those cube mobs everyone has a shot at them. Because they are relatively easy (should be x2) and there are a few of them that pop and at random timers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Increase the amount of contested by alot and many guilds will have a shot. By alot i mean 20. 10x4 (lvl74) and 10x2 (lvl72-74)T7 contested. Also add in at least 3 (preferably 4) more raid instances so there is at least 1 T7 raid instance a day. Every large zone should have 1 x2 and 1 x4 contested. </DIV>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jida wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR>The purpose of contested mobs is not to provide content for even your average raid guild, it is to provide something for the 2-3 uber raid guilds on each server to argue about. For the rest of us, contested raid mobs might as well not exist.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The problem I see with contested is the gear they drop is sometimes required for tanks to be the best they can be, therefore putting some raids completly outta reach for those who can not (or leadership doesnt want to fight the "uber" guilds for) contested.<BR><BR>To reiteriate, loot progression should not require anything from contested raid mobs, to advance from one instanced raid mob to the next.<BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thats not true, what tank item was ever required form a contested that is needed to raid. Tthere was only 3 contested princes drops nothing required, Mo drops nothign required, and hurricanus has a bp (thats not even considered the best), and bracer (ok its pretty leet, but we killed every mob in game before our MT had this item for a bit). Nothing from contested is required to beat an encounter.

[Jida]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Jida wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Caswydian wrote:The purpose of contested mobs is not to provide content for even your average raid guild, it is to provide something for the 2-3 uber raid guilds on each server to argue about. For the rest of us, contested raid mobs might as well not exist. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>The problem I see with contested is the gear they drop is sometimes required for tanks to be the best they can be, therefore putting some raids completly outta reach for those who can not (or leadership doesnt want to fight the "uber" guilds for) contested.To reiteriate, loot progression should not require anything from contested raid mobs, to advance from one instanced raid mob to the next.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Thats not true, what tank item was ever required form a contested that is needed to raid. Tthere was only 3 contested princes drops nothing required, Mo drops nothign required, and hurricanus has a bp (thats not even considered the best), and bracer (ok its pretty leet, but we killed every mob in game before our MT had this item for a bit). Nothing from contested is required to beat an encounter.<hr></blockquote>I thought there were more... guess i'm wrong.. no biggie.. (still a thought that should be in new expansion)</div>

[Budgiette]

I know there are numerous posts on the mobs ability to spawn in any time zone, however my own experience with t7 is that if the mob has been killed in one particular time zone then it seems to always respawn in that time zone.  We are always checking these mobs and are yet to see them spawn in our time zone compared to the other side of the world.  It would be nice to see at least one of them in our time zone when members are online or able to be scrambled together with a few phone calls.  I do like the idea of having a few days grace but perhaps with some more abilities to be spawned at other time of days or night to when they were killed.  I do believe I did read that this was intended but for our server at least it appears to be broken. <div></div>

[MexStrat]

I am pretty certain you can be an adequate tank in full relic.   Best tank? probably not.     It has been pointed out that, although there are some really nice items from the contesteds,  they are not the end all of equipment,  they are not needed to defeated anything.  Yes, some items make, some content easier, but certainly isn't required if you just put some time and thought into an encounter to figure out what it is doing.As far as timers.  Not sure how it works on other servers,  but on Befallen.  the contesteds spawn at different times of the day.  Occasionally several consecutive spawns will happen around the same time, but at some point it just changes.  (i.e. after 4 weeks of Hurricanus spawning between 3 - 6 am Central,  last week suddenly it spawned at 1 pm central)  the truly funny thing about that is, there were more people attempting to kill it at the early morning spawns then the mid day one.  All that being sad.  I do agree that you should not have to kill a contested to gear up to be able to clear an instance. That should work just the opposite.  I believe contesteds should be at the end of the progression.<div></div>

[Wrytched]

<P>Contested mobs are on a delayed repop, they are not fixed where they spawn at exactly 7 days.  Since the days of EQ 1, contested encounters were set to repop at x number of days +/- x number of hours.  This would allow some randomness.</P> <P>Regardless of what you do, the guild that can organize the quickest and get the right number of people together, they will always win.  That's why "uber guilds," always seem to beat out everyone else.</P> <P>Right now on my server, there were 3 competing guilds organized and ready to go for the last 3-Prince encounter.  They respected one another and took turns.  We see similiar things for Hurricanus and other mobs.</P> <P>If you give NPCs fixed spawn schedules, you're deluding yourself.   Guild A will simply plan to be at the NPCs spawn site at whatever time it's due up.  "Uber guilds," are usually able to get 20+ members together at any time of the day, they are comprised of hardcore powergamers in most cases.  That's how they do their recruiting.</P> <P>The "less uber guilds," are willing to invite public players to help on an encounter just so they have the numbers needed when a mob pops.  In many cases, they aren't organized, they fail, and then "uber guild A," will come in and snatch the mob anyway.</P> <P>Possible solution... All  contested mobs spawn at the exact same time forcing players to pick and choose which they want. Sadly what will end up happening is "uber guild A" will kill their 1st choice, and probably get their 2nd or 3rd choice because someone else failed.</P>

[JoarAddam]

<div><blockquote><hr>MexStrat wrote:I am pretty certain you can be an adequate tank in full relic.   Best tank? probably not.     It has been pointed out that, although there are some really nice items from the contesteds,  they are not the end all of equipment,  they are not needed to defeated anything.  Yes, some items make, some content easier, but certainly isn't required if you just put some time and thought into an encounter to figure out what it is doing.As far as timers.  Not sure how it works on other servers,  but on Befallen.  the contesteds spawn at different times of the day.  Occasionally several consecutive spawns will happen around the same time, but at some point it just changes.  (i.e. after 4 weeks of Hurricanus spawning between 3 - 6 am Central,  last week suddenly it spawned at 1 pm central)  the truly funny thing about that is, there were more people attempting to kill it at the early morning spawns then the mid day one.  All that being sad.  I do agree that you should not have to kill a contested to gear up to be able to clear an instance. That should work just the opposite.  I believe contesteds should be at the end of the progression.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Relic isn't the end all of raid zones, there is a lot better gear in *most* slots that you can get by completing those zones, and T7 Contested items, while some are nice, are definitely not all "superuber"....  honor of pantrilla is a nice one though.  For contesteds we HAD Gore, Talendor, Pantrilla, harla, MO, Hurricanus, princes, cubes...  of course, now, Gore, Talendor and Harla are all instanced...Some guilds have phone trees and alts at spawn points waiting to call the guild the moment it pops.You can go that route if you have copious amounts of free time, like that guy in southpark.</div>

[Caetrel]

You will never stop the guilds who dominate contesteds from doing so.  You won't even curb it.  They are completely oriented towards that goal, they recruit based on it.   The people who want to kill contesteds join those guilds and take the good with the bad and that's that. It would take a drastic reimagining to change this...something along the lines of failure lockouts on contesteds to really give anyone else a chance lol.   Something like that would probably involve pseudo-instancing.  <div></div>

[Caetrel]

<hr size="2" width="100%">You can go that route if you have copious amounts of free time, like that guy in southpark. <hr size="2" width="100%">LOL exactly. <div></div>

[psubull]

Get out there and do something about it if the same guild gets contesteds all the time.  It's up to YOU, its a challenge for YOU and YOUR GUILD.  It's a challenge just like AE knockback or Memory Wipes, only instead of pitting you against the challenges of the instanced boring stuff, where failure means revive and take your time before trying again, it puts pressure on you to not only think  quick and act quick, but be prepared to drop what you're doing in game to get to it.  If you're upset that your guild can't get them, find a new guild.  It's weight of priorities, that's all it is.<div></div>

[Magus_Bl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caetrel wrote:<BR>You will never stop the guilds who dominate contesteds from doing so.  You won't even curb it.  They are completely oriented towards that goal, they recruit based on it.   The people who want to kill contesteds join those guilds and take the good with the bad and that's that.<BR><BR>It would take a drastic reimagining to change this...something along the lines of failure lockouts on contesteds to really give anyone else a chance lol.   Something like that would probably involve pseudo-instancing.  <BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually all you would need is something along the lines of a lockout timer.  You killed it.. now you can't engage it for another week... or whatever.  Pretty simple.  </P> <P>If you did this, they would cease to become "contested" though.  It would basically be an instanced mob you could fight out in the open.</P> <P>I'm not saying that this is a good idea or a bad idea.  However...</P> <P>The guilds that do get these mobs are often camping them for hours before they spawn.  Is that something I'd want to do?  Mmmmmmmmm no.  Sometimes multiple guilds will camp them for hours.. and only one will get the pull.  Going through that kind of frustration and investing the large amounts of time into camping mobs is rewarded with contested loot.  Personally, I think if I were in a guild that put forth this kind of effort into getting contested mobs/loot, and then it were all of the sudden made so that anyone could get contested gear... I think I'd be more than a little annoyed.</P>

[Brizlyn]

<P>There is no real solution that will make everyone happy and allow all non 'uber' raiding guilds to take down high end contested.</P> <P>The 'uber guilds' are uber because they have 'uber' amounts of time and accessibility (receiving a phone call at 3am telling them to log on for contested / able to log on from work and play EQ2 etc) to dedicate to the game, that's just the way it is.  Anything you put increasingly more time into should typically provide greater rewards as you continue.  </P> <P>These guilds are not more skilled necessarily, their members just have the luxury of logging on anytime day or night while everyone else is either at work or at school or sleeping so that they can make it to work or school.  They get their initial pulls in early on after a new expansion/adventure pack etc releases, and they learn the encounters just like anyone else would have to.  <STRONG>They wipe several or many times usually just like any other non 'uber' guild would - eventually they master it early on and then monopolize the repops.</STRONG>  Any other guild that is not 'uber' may get a pull in once in a while if they are lucky, but 9 times out of 10 the 'uber' guild who has already mastered the strategy will pull and kill before any other guild has the opportunity to fully learn the encounter.</P> <P>What it boils down to is <STRONG>they deserve to get the kills if they are willing to put the time in</STRONG>.  Most of us prioritize EQ2 below things like school, work, partying, etc...those things get in the way of being able to monopolize things like contested mobs - hence we have instanced raid zones to satisfy the needs of the non 'uber' guild.</P> <P>It's a game, just play it, kill what you have time for, and move on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Brizlyn on <span class=date_text>10-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:17 PM</span>

[StevusX]

<P>hmm - just one point.</P> <P>I'm fairly sure it is against the EULA to monopolise/camp continously a mob etc - its considered disruptive play</P> <P>and if you do it continously to a named and get reported you can get kicked out....</P> <P>So how come the EULA doesnt seem to apply for "uber" guilds that dominate/ camp continously a contested mob ??</P> <P>It doesnt matter to me particularly, just a stray thought from seeing the many threads about the eula.</P> <P>Just dont see the difference in a farmer monopolising a named and a uber guild monopolising a contested  /shrug</P> <P>Both are not right imo and are supposedly against the rules.</P>

[tweety1972]

<P>Interesting point, tho I would guess the farmer does it for a completely different reason than the guilds do.</P> <P>Somehow I don't think it will be enforced on the raiding guilds.</P> <P>nothing wrong with that if SOE agrees it is fair just a statement.</P>

[Jal]

Raid guilds dont camp these mobs, they just arrive with a force when its up, if another guild is there the first to get it wins. Thats the whole point of contesteds.

[Shakir10]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jida wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR>The purpose of contested mobs is not to provide content for even your average raid guild, it is to provide something for the 2-3 uber raid guilds on each server to argue about. For the rest of us, contested raid mobs might as well not exist.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The problem I see with contested is the gear they drop is sometimes required for tanks to be the best they can be, therefore putting some raids completly outta reach for those who can not (or leadership doesnt want to fight the "uber" guilds for) contested.<BR><BR>To reiteriate, loot progression should not require anything from contested raid mobs, to advance from one instanced raid mob to the next.<BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And it doesn't. On the Befallen server, 2 guilds, Clan of Shadows and Fallen, beat Chel'Drak. They have never been able to get Hurricanus, 3 Princes, Mutagenic Outcast, or Matron, yet they still took down the hardest instanced raid mob in game. </P> <P>So it seems to me none of the gear from Contested mobs are needed to beat instanced encounters. I will say however that going from one Contested to another Contested may require your guild to have contested gear. But that depends on how your guild works I suppose. </P> <P>Oh, and I'm not counting Pantrilla or Vraksaken in this cause unlike other contested they are super easy to beat and their loot (with the exception maybe of pantrilla's honor) doesn't really make a huge difference. <BR></P>

[Killerbee3000]

<div><blockquote><hr>Shakir1065 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Jida wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Caswydian wrote:The purpose of contested mobs is not to provide content for even your average raid guild, it is to provide something for the 2-3 uber raid guilds on each server to argue about. For the rest of us, contested raid mobs might as well not exist. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>The problem I see with contested is the gear they drop is sometimes required for tanks to be the best they can be, therefore putting some raids completly outta reach for those who can not (or leadership doesnt want to fight the "uber" guilds for) contested.To reiteriate, loot progression should not require anything from contested raid mobs, to advance from one instanced raid mob to the next.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>And it doesn't. On the Befallen server, 2 guilds, Clan of Shadows and Fallen, beat Chel'Drak. They have never been able to get Hurricanus, 3 Princes, Mutagenic Outcast, or Matron, yet they still took down the hardest instanced raid mob in game. </p> <p>So it seems to me none of the gear from Contested mobs are needed to beat instanced encounters. I will say however that going from one Contested to another Contested may require your guild to have contested gear. But that depends on how your guild works I suppose. </p> <p>Oh, and I'm not counting Pantrilla or Vraksaken in this cause unlike other contested they are super easy to beat and their loot (with the exception maybe of pantrilla's honor) doesn't really make a huge difference. </p><hr></blockquote>in my opinion contested epics should be the top end content and be designed for the top shot raiding guilds that put in the most time and dedication and so on and the loot form them should be the absolute best out there you can get. contested trash like cube mobs not counting for that (anyone who ever killed one will know why), but if you look at the matron encounter, its [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard to kill, its contested and the loot of it is some of the very best gear you can get (pls lets not debate ft for now thx). i think that constested mobs should all be like matron (not copy paste encounters of him), they should be hard, obviously contested (so no guaranteed chance to get it) and as they pose the biggest challenge they should also drop the best loot. that way contested mobs would be more of a reward to the top shot raiding guilds that put all their love and blood and time and money in to the game rather than now being just some additional loot to vendor. and with it, they could also fix itemization, have instnaces like lyceum, labs, harla and the trash constested drop stuff where there is an upgrade for in harder instances likes hos or cheldrak. then as a "bonus" tier of itemization for only the very best have several encounters that are about as hard as matron that drop loot that is clearly better. </div>

[Talz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jalek wrote:Raid guilds dont camp these mobs, they just arrive with a force when its up, if another guild is there the first to get it wins. Thats the whole point of contesteds.<hr></blockquote>I suppose it depends on how the local 24/7 guilds on your server behave.  We raid three times a week and that is enough for us but everything contested in T7 is locked down.  We do very well and wouldn't have problems with these encounters but EQ2 isn't our full time job.  They are camped on mine.  When another force beats them to a spawn they make as many pets as they can and use as many large illusions as they can to try to block things you have to click while half a dozen of their members jump through your raid on horses.  They have gotten most casual raiding guilds to the point where all the BS isn't even worth trying.I have run hundreds of raids in EQ1 from when Naggy was the endgame up until GoD and briefly OoW.  I have nothing against contested content and fully understand what needs to be done to get it.  EQ2 though is one game where I will not stick up for it in any way.  It is more of a romper room for people that play way too much.  There isn't any loot I feel I need from them so I happily do instances three times a week.  In all honesty there isn't much they can do about it.  EQ2 is a game where you are never accountable for what you do.  Pulling half the nonsense I see and read about in EQ1 might have made it so your guild never got a shot at Emp or the EPs.I'm not saying all servers are like mine but guiding in EQ1 taught me that for the most part all of the servers are the same with different names.</div>

[Oakum]

<P>I, as a casual at best raider, see contested as just a different form of raid content, but not a better and probably a worse kind then the instanced when their is not enoug of them or they intefere or are part of solo, group, or any type of quest update. If their are so few that they can be monopolized by 2 or 3 guilds per server, then there are not enough.</P> <P>If their are so few that only certain guilds are getting them, then once again, that just causes players to get angry at the ones they see as monopolizing them. Everyones opionion of what constitutes a monopoly is not the same so while some may not agree that they (especially the guild's that are always getting them first) are being monopolized others will see it differently. </P> <P>As far as the loot goes, being contested should have nothing to do with the quality as the "prize" you get for getting one should be a positive recognition of a job well done from the other guilds. The loot quality should be set the same as instanced based on mob difficulty and availability timer meaning in this case the average respawn time, just like instanced epic named mobs. </P>

[AChampi]

Perhaps implementing a mechanic to effectively lock the raid out of the encouter for 1(?) hour on failure, "You pathetic adventurers, I will not waste my time with you..." would give perhaps more raids a chance to have a pop at it but still keep the contested aspect of the encounter? -Slic.

[MexStrat]

<div><blockquote><hr>Oakum wrote:<div></div> <p>I, as a casual at best raider, see contested as just a different form of raid content, but not a better and probably a worse kind then the instanced when their is not enoug of them or they intefere or are part of solo, group, or any type of quest update. If their are so few that they can be monopolized by 2 or 3 guilds per server, then there are not enough.</p> <p>If their are so few that only certain guilds are getting them, then once again, that just causes players to get angry at the ones they see as monopolizing them. Everyones opionion of what constitutes a monopoly is not the same so while some may not agree that they (especially the guild's that are always getting them first) are being monopolized others will see it differently. </p> <p>As far as the loot goes, being contested should have nothing to do with the quality as the "prize" you get for getting one should be a positive recognition of a job well done from the other guilds. The loot quality should be set the same as instanced based on mob difficulty and availability timer meaning in this case the average respawn time, just like instanced epic named mobs. </p><hr></blockquote>So according to your loot rules, being contested should have no bearing on the loot,  but the difficulty and availablity timer should.   Well from my research the hardest mobs in the game on average are contested mobs(harder encounter = better loot)  and Contested mobs will add loot to a server, once every 7 to 10 days, compare that to an instance zone where it is once every 6days per raiding guild (Less availablity = Better loot)  So for the most part Contested mobs should have better loot(even if you use your ideas).   The "Prize" as you say should be the actual killing of the mob,  I agree that killing a contested encounter(or any difficult encounter) is reward in and of itself,  but to make that the only real reward, would put the replay value of the game at a minimum(something I have seen, with the many people taking breaks from the game).   The Loot from these difficult and rare encounters needs to be the best in the game.</div>

[Shakir10]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AChampion wrote:<BR>Perhaps implementing a mechanic to effectively lock the raid out of the encouter for 1(?) hour on failure, "You pathetic adventurers, I will not waste my time with you..." would give perhaps more raids a chance to have a pop at it but still keep the contested aspect of the encounter?<BR><BR>-Slic.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>But what if your guild is the only guild there, then this would just be punishing that guild even more on top of them already losing once

[Neumann]

<DIV>this is the reason i love pvp servers...on venekor, we had 3 guilds vying for the hurricanus kill...it was a 3 day fight</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>first, a Fp guild called I like pie made an attempt at it, however my guild called <Exile>, a qeynos aligned guild stopped them until enough members had to log, the kill was no longer possible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There was another Freeport Guild there called pandemonium, who has been ahead of the curve for awhile...they watched us kill pie, then when pie was down to a x2, My guild, <Exile> tried em.  We had a diff guild in a x3 of qeynos trying to protect us, unfortunatly all it takes is 1 dispatch or decap to the MT to finish the fight =(.  We gave em bout 10 goes, pande was now helping pie clear us.  Same thing happened next day...there was a x6 pie (x2 for protection) vs a x4 exile...the mob never even got tried, in fact...they made us evac...we zoned down to ant and fought there for awhile but we had to evac again as a x2 pande raid also joined in (u think lags bad on blue servers....please, its a slide show in xtreme performance w/ a sweet comp....15 sec for a spell or CA to regiseter.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>they came to the NQ gates to meet us again where we zoned in NQ...they were now carnage flagged (they cant attk us inside our own city unless we engage combat)...couple mini fights there, then SQ...then QH....it was like x8vsx8....in an alrdy laggy zone, it was amzing...we did make them evac....but it was a VERY fun fight...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>next day, pie logged in during work hours and killed him uncontested =(</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: btw, im really a swash and a dreadnaught, lol...i like messing w/ server community w/ incorrect sigs</DIV><p>Message Edited by Neumann on <span class=date_text>10-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:11 PM</span>

[Noaani]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magus_Blue wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>Actually all you would need is something along the lines of a lockout timer.  You killed it.. now you can't engage it for another week... or whatever.  Pretty simple. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So, what you want is for SOE to make contested mobs instanced, but so that people can watch you kill them.</P> <P>Contested mobs are there for the people that want to kill them. You may need to work hard to kill them, but they are there. Making a lot of contested spawn at a time is a good idea, as the top guild on each server will then have to choose which contested mob they want the most, and leave the rest hoping that other guilds would not kill them till they get there. I can see it making for a very fun nights raiding for a few of teh guilds that are good at raiding, but not as dedicated to staying up all night camping a mob, and it will make contested mobs actually contested, instead of just camped, on a few servers.</P> <P>That said, they way contested mobs have been itemized in the last 2 tiers has made them a bonus, as opposed to being part of progression as they were in T5 (try doing brutal with a T5 guild without any contested loot). Altough, there is hardly anything on any contested mob in the game that can't be replaced in an instance, like less than 10 items all up, not counting what drops off of teh matron.</P>

[Oakum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MexStrat wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So according to your loot rules, being contested should have no bearing on the loot,  but the difficulty and availablity timer should.   Well from my research the hardest mobs in the game on average are contested mobs(harder encounter = better loot)  and Contested mobs will add loot to a server, once every 7 to 10 days, compare that to an instance zone where it is once every 6days per raiding guild (Less availablity = Better loot)  So for the most part Contested mobs should have better loot(even if you use your ideas).   The "Prize" as you say should be the actual killing of the mob,  I agree that killing a contested encounter(or any difficult encounter) is reward in and of itself,  but to make that the only real reward, would put the replay value of the game at a minimum(something I have seen, with the many people taking breaks from the game).   The Loot from these difficult and rare encounters needs to be the best in the game.<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, by "my rules" as you put it, they should be slightly better, but not to the extent that people think they have to be farmed in order to have the required gear to take on the hard raid content.

[Lairdragna]

My only problem with contesteds is they are predictable in their spawn times and places.  Put a few roving spawn spots in place, eliminate the pretty static timers... they will become more contested.  I see it like this, no guild should be able to Beta and learn the strats for the mobs, powerlevel to the new cap quickly, get to the mobs first, have a better chance of beating them because they helped test them, take them down and then have a spreadsheet telling them when and where (withing a few hour window) the mob will spawn.  I would make it so the mobs have a 4-7 day respawn timer and could spawn in up to four locations.  That seriously hampers the ability to camp the mob and be ready to roll.  I have a friend who leads a hard core raid guild that gets 80% of the contested on our server at least.  He told me a month or so ago that no other guild will get princes, matron or mutagenic outcast unless they decide to let them!  How can they do that, well, he told me what day the mob would spawn and between what hours.  This was three days later, and wouldn't you know it.... exactly as he told me.Now there is a huge difference between knowing 4-6 pm on Monday versus somtime between Tuesday and Friday morning...And yeah, folks need to Beta the raid content, can't begrudge SOE that.  The raiders who Beta provide a valuable service, so I hope they don't think I'm knocking them on this count.  But there is a huge advantage at least for the few uber guilds who make it in versus those that do not.  Does it effect the more casual raid guilds like mine?  No, because by the time we can take the encounter SOE has likely changed it several times since it went live.Make the spawns more random and more people can take a crack, most will fail in the process... but they can try.<div></div>

[StevusX]

<P>Lair,</P> <P>Absolutely spot on.</P> <P>Contested should be random pops - both in time and location.</P> <P>One or two guilds - however uber !  and dedicated should not be able to monopolise these.</P> <P>You cant really blame the guilds for doing so if they are able to within the game mechanics </P> <P>so its down to SOE to change things, just like they do to other areas of the game.</P> <P>PS if one guild is able to monopolise 80% of certain contested as stated by some one above then </P> <P>i personally would say that was against the EULA  - no different than constantly camping any named </P> <P>- for which you can get kicked for disruptive gameplay. Again though it is up to SOE to enforce its rules </P> <P>fairly across the board.</P>

[Magus_Bl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Noaani wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magus_Blue wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>Actually all you would need is something along the lines of a lockout timer.  You killed it.. now you can't engage it for another week... or whatever.  Pretty simple. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So, what you want is for SOE to make contested mobs instanced, but so that people can watch you kill them.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Way to read.  I never said that.  I said the mechanics are there.  If you read what I wrote below that, I indicated that this would probably not be the best idea... <BR>

[Lairdragna]

Hey, I think a raid guild should be allowed to get 100% of the contesteds if they are able to get to them... it just needs to be made harder to do it.  It needs to be more random... heck, maybe even make the raid mob's abilities random.  We all know dragons have a breath attack... usually it does a specific kind of damage, what if it could do a variety and you wouldn't know which it would use until you survived the first aoe?  Raid guilds that raid contested should be allowed to, that is as valid a playstyle as anybody else's.  What they shouldn't be able to do is automate the process by knowing when and where the best mobs in the game will spawn with such a high degree of success.The other thing that should never happen again is making zone access or quest completion include killing contested mobs.  That was idiotic and allowed raid guilds to [Removed for Content] the progression of others.  They might have only been after those mobs for the loot, but it had the effect of blocking game progression for others.<div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<P>Just an oddball idea but what if the contested came in two forms.  The true contested and a triggered version.  The true contested would drop 2-3 fable items like most do now while the triggered version is limited to only dropping 1 fable item.  Killing the triggered version would hit the people there with a 10 day lockout the high end of a true contested spawn window.  In this way the true contested retains its superior target value while opening up additional content to the raid guilds that can't raid 24/7.</P> <P> </P>

[Lairdragna]

Except the raid guilds will do the triggered spawn as well.  I don't want a triggered version of a contested.  Contested should be contested.  You should have to muster your force, ensure you have the right classes and get to it before anybody else does.  I LIKE that.  What I don't like are the mechanics that make scheduling it possible for raid guilds because there is no randomness as to when and where.  Unless you are there to see them kill the contested, and unless you know the respawn timer, you are left in the dark as to when it might respawn whereas they have a spreadsheet that will narrow it right down for them.  It perpetuates the cycle.I want them to have an equal shot at it as any other guild with the players to take it down have because it could pop in a 72 hour window.  Every hour in that window there is like a 1.5% change that it will spawn.  Hour one is 1.5%, hour two 3.0% and so on.  So yes, it is possible for it to spawn at the very beginning of the window, but it is remote.  As more time goes on it becomes more likely with each passing hour that there will be a spawn... but then it raises the question... WHERE?What should never be able to happen is a guild is able to schedule raids for contesteds much in the way you can schedule raids for instances.  OK everybody, we need you on between 7-9pm Tuesday in zone X for this mob, we will then go do Lyceum to kill an hour before we head over to Y zone to kill this contested...  And that is largely how it works now.Hell I was talking to a friend in tells who is in one of these guilds and he tells me he has to run to kill monolith.  Is it up I asked?  Knowing we had an alt there watching and knew [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well it wasn't up.  His response was it will be shortly.  They were all standing there when it popped 10 minutes later and killed it.  Nothing should be that predictable.  Anybody else remember camping the Ancient Cyclops in EQ Live for J boots?  I once held that camp for four days and didn't see the mob.  While not a contested raid mob, it sure was contested.  Nobody could pin down when that thng would spawn... it just spawned when it [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well felt like that, no matter how many placeholders you killed.<div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<DIV>Why would it matter if the top raid guild did both.  All they'd get is one extra piece of loot that I can't see people complaining over.  I can see the point of why top 24/7 raid guild would not like this as it would give other guilds the chance to learn an encounter and possibly become competition for the true contested.  But bottom line the 24/7 guild will still get the true contested because they have a membership that can and will login at anytime of the day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All my idea does it open up some of the more challenging and fun encounters to more people.  True contested would still be the most sought after as they'd drop three times as much loot.  This isn't alot different then what alot of people suggested back when KoS came out and Harla Dar, Gorenaire and Talendor were contested and people in non 24/7 guilds had no chance of completing DT access.  I thought it was a cool alternative idea back then and I still think it'd be a fun change to the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gungo]

They should just make many contested like 20 new T7 contested 10 x2 and 10 x4. Let them not be tied to any quest series unless they pop on that step. Like rehotep. No guild will be able to lock down 25ish contested mobs all the time. Especially x2 contested. Not to mention its more fun..

[Hajji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> They should just make many contested like 20 new T7 contested 10 x2 and 10 x4. Let them not be tied to any quest series unless they pop on that step. Like rehotep. No guild will be able to lock down 25ish contested mobs all the time. Especially x2 contested. Not to mention its more fun..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Best idea I've seen yet.  Only problem I could see would be creating a large enough number of items for each of the many encounters.  But conceptually I like this idea best.  But the spawn times would need to be randomized, as has been discussed in numerous related threads.<p>Message Edited by Hajji on <span class=date_text>10-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:04 AM</span>

[carlspackler]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaedion wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm a member of a T7 raiding guild.  We're all having a wonderful time seeing our toons in new fantastic gear, and developing from struggling with raid encounters to dropping them faster each attempt.  I have assisted other high end guilds with some contested mobs, but would like to have a shot or two at some of these with my guild.  There are a few high end, much more hardcore, raiding guilds on the server that dominate the contested kills.  To compete with this we as a guild would have to either increase recuiting to unconfortably high numbers to ensure that enough people are on to scramble in the race to form up and attempt these mobs.  Or we would have to as all members to play more and wait around hoping for contested mobs to spawn.  Most of us do not wish to increase to these play hours, nor have our player base so high that many would miss our scheduled raiding.  Soooo...  one of our members had a nice idea, I'm sure there is good critisism to it, just want to put this out there.  What if the contested mobs, maybe not ALL, but a good sum of them respawned at the same time.  This would still be random, but would allow more guilds a shot at contested without having to race with all other high end guilds and most likely lose to the same old guilds time and time again.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>All  contested mobs are on a respawn timer. They will always respawn within a certain time frame after they were last killed. However, the actual spawn time is random. The reason the top 2-3 guilds on each server are considered the best is because they can form up at almost any time to kill the contesteds, whenever they pop. By putting some contested mobs on a specific spawn time, then that just makes it easier for them to kill it. The other guilds still wouldn't have a chance at them because the top guilds already know the strats and can usually kill them on the first pull. The only thing that this would do is add more lag to the zone. Lag is bad enough at the MO as it is when you have 2-3 guilds there. Having 10 or more guilds there would be ridiculous.</P> <P>The top guilds camp these mobs for days, either on their mains or second account alts. They have the phone numbers for people in the guild and they will log in at any time. They also know the timers on these mobs, so they can figure out when they might spawn. If other guilds want to compete with them, then they will need to do the same things as them. If a guild cannot do this, then they won't really be able to compete. You might get lucky one day and catch a contested up when the other guilds aren't on or are doing something else. But if your guild can't do what they do, then you will probably not get to kill these mobs anytime soon. It's not really a matter of when the mobs spawns; it's all about your guild availability.</P>

[Hajji]

Yeah, Carlsp has pretty much summed it up I think.  Thinking a little more on the idea of increasing the number of contested, that would just make more mobs and more loot for the 24/7er guilds to get.

[tweety1972]

There should still be some change made to when the contested spawns so it is slightly more random just so the raiders have to scramble or do some camping of contested mobs instead of having them show up 2 minutes before it spawns kill it and run to the next one to kill it. Just doesn't seem fair personally.

[Erurat]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Budgiette wrote:<BR>I know there are numerous posts on the mobs ability to spawn in any time zone, however my own experience with t7 is that if the mob has been killed in one particular time zone then it seems to always respawn in that time zone.  We are always checking these mobs and are yet to see them spawn in our time zone compared to the other side of the world.  It would be nice to see at least one of them in our time zone when members are online or able to be scrambled together with a few phone calls.  I do like the idea of having a few days grace but perhaps with some more abilities to be spawned at other time of days or night to when they were killed.  I do believe I did read that this was intended but for our server at least it appears to be broken.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Maybe they should just create time zone specific servers so that the mobs spawn right when you log in.</P>

[911GT3]

I agree that they really need to make the respawns more random, since KoS came out I have only seen the Mutagenic Outcast up one time during my normal playing hours, I dont even know what the other 2 x4's look like and I think I play a good amount and often check to see if they are up. They should have roaming contested, that go around killing everyone in the zone till a guild can actually gather up and defeats it, that would be some cool [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] instead of it just being in a remote area where people rarely go, and that it is only there for the people who know when abouts it will spawn and that have been ready for it for a while.<div></div>

[thepriz]

<div><blockquote><hr>tweety1972 wrote:<div></div> <p>Interesting point, tho I would guess the farmer does it for a completely different reason than the guilds do.</p> <p>Somehow I don't think it will be enforced on the raiding guilds.</p> <p>nothing wrong with that if SOE agrees it is fair just a statement.</p><hr></blockquote>Actually, having been in a discussion with an "uber" guild member; it seems that they do try to monopolize the contested so as to keep everyone else from taking it down. I think contested raid mobs are bad ideas. It allows a small number of people to monopalize the content. You can see this with the Wizard Spires and how only a few guilds where able to get a title because they would run from Spire to Spire taking on the raid mob and not allowing others the chance at the title. It may be implied in the saying contested mob, but in all reallity SOE should put the content in for the majority of the people not the minority. And if you think camping a contested raid mob for hours just so you can say you took it down and then monopilize it so that no one else can have a chance makes you uber, I would say it is just selfish.</div>

[thepriz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Talzar wrote:<div>I suppose it depends on how the local 24/7 guilds on your server behave.  We raid three times a week and that is enough for us but everything contested in T7 is locked down.  We do very well and wouldn't have problems with these encounters but EQ2 isn't our full time job.  They are camped on mine.  <font color="#cc0000">When another force beats them to a spawn they make as many pets as they can and use as many large illusions as they can to try to block things you have to click while half a dozen of their members jump through your raid on horses.</font>  They have gotten most casual raiding guilds to the point where all the BS isn't even worth trying.</div><hr></blockquote>To me this is herasment and should be reported to CS. This is just downright rude and should not be tollerated from the so called uber guilds. This is the reason that the uber guilds are looked down upon by the majority of people.</div>

[Computer MAn]

<div><blockquote><hr>tweety1972 wrote:<div></div>There should still be some change made to when the contested spawns so it is slightly more random just so the raiders have to scramble or do some camping of contested mobs instead of having them show up 2 minutes before it spawns kill it and run to the next one to kill it. Just doesn't seem fair personally.<hr></blockquote>Being part of a "24/7" guild myself I can tell you all but one of the true contesteds is on a random spawn timer. They pop every 7-9 days so while not as large of a spread as some would like its still there. We can't just say tonight Hurricanus will pop at 6 pacific be on we just know it will pop from say Friday to Sunday be avalible. Personally I think contesteds are fine the way they are and making a triggered version or a contested lockout would be a horrible idea. The game already has enough loot coming into it the last thing we need is more loot. As for the raid lockout that defeats the whole purpose of a contested as its locking a guild from killing it just because they killed it the week before.And for those complaining that its not fair that contesteds are on lockdown if you want a contested do what the 24/7 guilds do stop doing instances on day 7 of a mobs window and have your raid camped at the mob ready to go until it pops. Maybe then you will have a chance at them. Until then you can't really complain that you never get a pull even the non 24/7 guilds have got pulls on contesteds while we were running there.</div>

[Quazaris]

<P>How about they have a NPC at the the spawn point ( Kinda like the ones at the instances) And Only allow the Guildlearders to be able to talk to them. That NPC can be in charge of a signup sheet. You talk to him and schedule the Time and date you would like the mob to pop. </P> <P>When the your turn comes , He spawns and you get 3 tries to kill him. If after 3 attempts you do not kill him He despawns and drops a Steel Chest just for the effort. But you will not be able to schedule another Pop for 7-9 days.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

<P>Here is an idea for a contested. </P> <P>A contested zone that you can only enter w a single tradeable KEY. The KEY is an artifact and is flagged as No Zone. It will drop as long as no other key exsists. So if that person logs. the key can have a 1% chance of dropping from any mob in zone. </P> <P>The contested zone activates (glows) once every 7-9 days has a chance to pop every 3 hours. Whichever guild has the key may enter.</P> <P>O wait that idea sucks.... NM</P> <P>They need several rare drop items that spawns a raid mob.. like the cubes. But make the item as rare as the spawnable DoF dragons scales and tradeable. Just for saftey measures put those 2-6 mobs on a 3 day repop timer. </P> <P>although thoe are not really contested that way and ruins what makes contested fun. Which is the run/rush to kill the mob. Although there is no reason why multiple forms of raids can not exsist.  true contested, instanced, and spawnable raid mobs. really though what T7 needs is 15+ contested mobs w at least 1 x2 and 1 x4 in every single T7 raid zone. </P>