Suggestions from a Test Server Crafter: IMO the best option... [Archive]

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Aela@Test

09-26-2006, 08:22 PM

<DIV> Please read this carefully, and suggest based off my comments. This is, imo, the best option to get people outside, but still have people happy. Keep in mind, I’m fine with the changes as made, however I do understand people’s confusion and being upset. I think making these changes just because Sony wants the crafters to “be happier and a combined community” is risky, but can be successfully implemented, if done correctly. I know my suggestions below aren’t the ‘only’ way to fix it, but it is an option. Note: I’ll be posting this idea from the Qeynos side, because I haven’t played extensively evil. So just make equal comparisons to the Freeport areas. NQ, SQ, QH, and Eddar are all here by referred to as “city zones” Qeynos is a “main city” Castleview, Willowwood, and the like are “starting villages” First, crafting areas should be setup in all of the city zones. This includes the areas of Qeynos and Freeport that are not starting villages (see above). In order for people to actually happily go out into the “bigger cities” and leave the newbie areas this entire line of changes should be included in the change. Any partial implementation will likely cause frustration and upset players. · Each city zone should have a set of trade skill stations. · Each city zone should have at least one of each station. · Each station area should have a clipboard. · If possible, it would be interesting if each zone has a core “set” of skills where specific stations are near each other. This is critical for at least one zone, however, because carpenters use multiple benches and should have all their benches in one building in at least one of the city zones. · Each city zone needs merchants that sell all of the trade skill materials. This NPC can be a single NPC near the writ merchants and trainers. · Each city zone needs at least a writ giver. Trainers for each are optimal, but optional. · Each city zone NEEDS to be a complete city. If one city zone has “everything” then no one will want to craft in another city zone. This makes any additional work done to the other city zones a waste of resources, and will cause unnecessary lag. · This means each city zone should have: <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> Banker Broker Mender Mailbox Trade skill material merchant(s) Writ givers</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> In addition to this, one city zone from both FP and Qeynos needs to have an instanced crafting area. This area can be a slimmed down version of the old instances. No doors are preferred. This zone can be basic, and could have no NPCs in it if that is what Sony wants. (These people can always zone out into the city and buy materials, etc.) This zone MUST allow for “instancing” if the population gets over a specific number. I honestly believe this area won’t be overly used if the city zones are properly built, however should still be included for those people who run off “less then optimal machines.” It shouldn't be the best place to craft, but would allow lag-less crafting. The starting villages should be reworked. Each starting village is assigned 2 trade skills, depending on the race that lives there. For example, Castleview has elves and frogs. So there would be a jewelry bench and forge. (One of each) Additionally, there would be a single NPC that sells both necessary fuel types for those trade skills UPTO level 20. What this basically means is, if you an elf and you want to cook, you just go to Babbleshire till 20th, then you leave and go to one of the previously mentioned city zones. (there would also be no writ givers in the starting villages, b/c you don’t start writs till 20th) As it stood on the old system, there was never any reason for anyone to leave the newbie areas. Even if someone WANTED to, it wasn’t optimal. Unless you wanted more broker space, you wouldn’t leave the newbie areas because the city zones are not convenient. I, personally, would also like to see us able to buy those clipboards for our own houses, so we can build our own crafting areas that we can do writs in. If these changes are make, it would: Make the player base have a reason to leave the starter villages. Make the crafters part of the general community Make the city actually look played in Make the crafters happy b/c they have the convenience AND the ability to have an instanced crafting area if necessary. Anyhow, please give me any feedback or ideas. If you just want to flame me, please don’t do it here. Send me a PM telling me how much I suck or something. I’d rather the people at Sony actually see useful feedback and see us putting out options that work. Please keep in mind that I was listening to what the general expressions were yesterday during the play test, and this is—IMO—the solution that meets most concerns.</DIV>

Maroger

09-26-2006, 08:53 PM

<DIV>A lot of people voted for NO Changes -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafting is NOT a group occupation -- so why try and force it to be one. Why should a game indulge in social engineering when it is not its remit? Games and their designers who think that part of their job is social engineering are heading down the slippery slope of failure and high cancellataions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your concept will not make city zone more convenient, just more laggy and over crowded. The idea behind instancing is to reduce crowding -- why reintroduce crowding. Everytime it rains, it rains in ALL the buildings and rain increase lag without tradeskills going on -- it will be worse with people trying to craft.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The current implementation is just plain stupid -- I mean you have crafting stations stuck in buildings and you get a few crafters in their and they are standing on top of one another.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why should crafters be interrupted and miss counters just to be stuffed into a city zone? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem with the cities was in the initial design - that can't be changed. It was silly to make them so gigantic with multiple zones. The stores they put in them never sold anything worthwhile, so after you did your quest, why bother to go to the other zones. The zone of West Freeport ( I don't know Qeynos well) is very busy with players as is East Freeport because of the bells. North Freeport, except for housing is pretty empty of players -- and I don't think that sticking crafting stations there will make it fill up with players. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you play around with thew newbie zone by limiting the number of the type of crafting in the zone you will go a long way to killing crafting. It will be hell for a newbie from the starter island to find all these crafting stations. And if it gets too much of a pita, people will often cancel their account rather than struggle to jump over hurdles.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you really want the cities to be busy - sticking crafting stations in them won't do it. Nor will it make for one combined community. Crafting stations in and of themselves are NOT a reason to travel to a zone. You put in shopping centers -- and proceeded to fill the shops with stuff no one would buy -- why don't you try filling the shops with items players would want ( forget about guild status) like some of the stuff on City Merchants -- remove the guild status requirement and make them more expensive if you want, but make the stuff available in your stores FOR ALL PLAYERS. Some things like this would fill up your cities more than crafting stations. Change the merchandise with every patch so there is reason to go "shopping" -- currently your merchants only sell junk. </DIV>

Heattanu

09-26-2006, 08:56 PM

Generally, I think this is a good proposal with a couple of small changes. People prefer "carrots" as motivation rather than "sticks". "Sticks" such as taking away existing conveniences from the villages, are just going to [Removed for Content] people off and are even likely to make them dig in their heels against changing their behavior. <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kavoelker wrote: <DIV> Each city zone NEEDS to be a complete city. If one city zone has “everything” then no one will want to craft in another city zone. This makes any additional work done to the other city zones a waste of resources, and will cause unnecessary lag. I really LIKE this idea as a positive incentive that removes barriers to living in city zones. This means each city zone should have: <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> Banker Broker Mender Mailbox Trade skill material merchant(s) Writ givers</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> ... The starting villages should be reworked. Each starting village is assigned 2 trade skills, depending on the race that lives there. For example, Castleview has elves and frogs. So there would be a jewelry bench and forge. (One of each) Additionally, there would be a single NPC that sells both necessary fuel types for those trade skills UPTO level 20. What this basically means is, if you an elf and you want to cook, you just go to Babbleshire till 20th, then you leave and go to one of the previously mentioned city zones. (there would also be no writ givers in the starting villages, b/c you don’t start writs till 20th) This paragraph is where I start to have problems with this proposal. The villages should keep all of the services they have not, i.e. banker, broker, mender, at least one of each tradeskilling station, and NPC vendors for all tradeskilling and adventuring supplies. If someone does not care about housing decorations and has modest selling needs, they should have the option of staying in the village even at high levels. Some people prefer the cozier, more compact, more ethnic feel of a village. Let them stay and don't try to pry them out with "sticks". One of each TS station is necessary for each village because, as you pointed out, some TS professions (e.g. carpenter, weaponsmith) need multiple stations and the village set up should work for everyone. I, personally, would also like to see us able to buy those clipboards for our own houses, so we can build our own crafting areas that we can do writs in. </DIV>GREAT idea! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Please, please don't try to MAKE players do things. Give players incentives for certain choices, but avoid severe penalties as a motivator (like having to zone back and forth and back and forth to accomplish simple tasks). Remember that this is a game and that means developers should add more fun and less annoyance. Message Edited by Heattanu on 09-26-2006 09:57 AMMessage Edited by Heattanu on 09-26-2006 10:01 AM

SideshowBob

09-26-2006, 09:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kavoelker wrote: <DIV> Please read this carefully, and suggest based off my comments. This is, imo, the best option to get people outside, but still have people happy. <snip> The starting villages should be reworked. Each starting village is assigned 2 trade skills, depending on the race that lives there. For example, Castleview has elves and frogs. So there would be a jewelry bench and forge. (One of each) Additionally, there would be a single NPC that sells both necessary fuel types for those trade skills UPTO level 20. What this basically means is, if you an elf and you want to cook, you just go to Babbleshire till 20th, then you leave and go to one of the previously mentioned city zones. (there would also be no writ givers in the starting villages, b/c you don’t start writs till 20th) As it stood on the old system, there was never any reason for anyone to leave the newbie areas. Even if someone WANTED to, it wasn’t optimal. Unless you wanted more broker space, you wouldn’t leave the newbie areas because the city zones are not convenient. I, personally, would also like to see us able to buy those clipboards for our own houses, so we can build our own crafting areas that we can do writs in. If these changes are make, it would: Make the player base have a reason to leave the starter villages. Make the crafters part of the general community Make the city actually look played in Make the crafters happy b/c they have the convenience AND the ability to have an instanced crafting area if necessary. Anyhow, please give me any feedback or ideas. If you just want to flame me, please don’t do it here. Send me a PM telling me how much I suck or something. I’d rather the people at Sony actually see useful feedback and see us putting out options that work. Please keep in mind that I was listening to what the general expressions were yesterday during the play test, and this is—IMO—the solution that meets most concerns.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I like the ideas about the city zones. The issue I had with your post is in regard to the starter cities. Specifically, with having only a certain type of crafting station or two per starting city. When you arrive off the boat from the noob isle, you are told to see out the Tradeskill delegate who basically walks you through the different types of crafting in order to help new players get a feel for what each crafting class is all about. You are given quests to make all different kinds of products using every different type of crafting station. If you're a new player, and your starting city only has a stove and a forge, it may be extremely frustrating trying to find out where you need to go when the Tradeskill Delegate asks you to make a spell scroll. I do like the idea of the starting cities basically only providing services for crafters up to level 20, though. No writ givers, and fuel/book merchants that only sell items up to that level. It would definately encourage people to move on/move up. As it's been stated over and over since the release of this game, there really is very little reason for most people to EVER move out of the starting cities as EVERYTHING they need is located in those zones, unlike the major cities. The only exception has come with the recently revamped broker selling, and selling capacity now based directly off the size of the house vault. Before that change, there was NO reason to ever leave your 5 silver a week starter home unless you happened to be a decorator/book collector and hit the house capacity limit. Still, most people actually created alts and stored excess stuff in those houses, rather than move to the bigger houses in the major cities because they didn't want to give up the convenience of having EVERYTHING available in their starter city - mender, bank, broker, crafting zone, everything. IF they really are dead set on getting rid of the tradeskill instances and making crafters bear the brunt of inconvenience because both crafters AND adventurers have little reason to move/visit the large cities, then I just hope they deal with the emminent lag and other issues (crafting while staring at a horse's [Removed for Content], pets blocking stations, etc) that have been brought up which are going to affect crafters most negatively. People with older computers are going to need somewhere relatively lag-free to craft, there's no way around that one... I, for one, don't like staring at a horse's rump while I'm crafting. And it's bad enough on the live servers when jerks like to stand on top of the brokers (especially the one in QH) and grief other players in various ways. I can only imagine how that kind of thing is going to happen if you force crafting out of the instances. And blocking stations/vendors may even be completely unintentional due to the cramped conditions and everyone crowding just trying to access their target. I just don't see how getting rid of the crafting instances is going to solve more problems than it creates... All the negatives that come from this change pretty clearly outweigh the potential benefits, as I see it. But I do like your ideas with regard to limiting the services of the starter cities in order to encourage people to "leave the nest" so to speak. :smileyhappy: EDIT: One other thing I thought of... In any game with a virtual economy, developers have to come up with money-sinks in order to try and control inflation. One money-sink is housing. Without ANY reason to move out of starter cities and 5 silver a week houses, there is no logical incentive to trade a potential greater money-sink for convenience. In real life, the cost of hosusing is based on location, location, location. The more you pay, the more you're supposedly going to get for your money. It's the EXACT OPPOSITE here in EQ2. The cheapest housing is the most desireable because of the *location* to all conveniences. I don't care if the starter cities are the quaintest areas in all Norrath. There needs to be continuity between what you pay for, and what you get. It's one (of many, granted) hedges against rampant inflation. Yes, the starter cities need to be affordable and convenient for NEW PLAYERS. But once you reach a certain level in this game, whether it be from crafting or adventuring, there needs to be incentives to move out of Compton and into Beverly Hills. It should be a goal for new players... They should be able to see and hear of all the cool things awaiting them once they progress in the game. Hey, speaking of Compton... Maybe they could have "ride-by"s in the starter cities... Gang wars... Never know when you're gonna get caught in the crossfire of rival archers shooting at each other as they race through the zone on their ghetto mules... :smileytongue::smileysurprised::smileywink:Message Edited by SideshowBob on 09-26-2006 10:18 AM

Rastaah

09-26-2006, 09:52 PM

Whatever they do , this game better not lag for me anymore than it does now or I have to go elsewhere. I have a good machine too, and a superb connection.Whatever they do, they better make it feasible for people to run machines doing it./sigh.I like being in Willowwood too by the way, why do dev's want to force me into a city I don't like? I like the hippy feeling there and have friends who all hang out there....they are tearing down commmunity not building it up if that is their aim.Sheesh.And the one poster is right, if you want people to congregate somewhere you need to put in a reason to go there. ie broker, shops, gaming or even pub's with a reason to enter. Sorry, just my 2 cents.If they can do this with NO lag involved, I will keep an open mind. If not, forget it.

Aela@Test

09-26-2006, 10:25 PM

I hadn't thought about the starting crafting quest. And that does draw an issue. However, the starting quest can always point you in the correct direction for the stations needed for the quest. Since there are bells, it's not like it's a really long run to that city zone. The adventure classes have to run to other newbie zones for quests.. why can't the crafting players too? Additionally, I was there last night, and most people said yes to the changes if certain conditions were met. I believe the recommendations listed fulfill those conditions. Making the changes i listed would not only move crafters to the city zones (they could be in the instances to craft, if they so chose), but give a reason for ALL PLAYERS to move out of the starting city. As it stands right now,t he only city zone even close to filling my needs is NQ. And it doesn't have a mender! Why leave castleview, which has everything i need to move to NQ which means i have to run from the north side of WW to repair? My suggestions were not to just address crafters, but all players... You don't have to believe it, but when most people talk about eq2 they say something like: "That was a fun game.. why aren't we playing it?" "Because no one plays it" The game looks empty, not just on test..but in general. If Sony doesn't give the players a reason to be in the city zones, they should just get rid of them, because no one uses them currently... I'd rather run around and see other players.. I can understand their (SOE) intrest in having the community physticallly 'look' present.

Aela@Test

09-26-2006, 10:26 PM

<DIV>also, sorry the font size on the first post is so huge. I didnt' realize it did that when i pasted it from MSWORD.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Aela@Test

09-26-2006, 10:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Heattanu wrote: Generally, I think this is a good proposal with a couple of small changes. People prefer "carrots" as motivation rather than "sticks". "Sticks" such as taking away existing conveniences from the villages, are just going to [Removed for Content] people off and are even likely to make them dig in their heels against changing their behavior. <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kavoelker wrote: <DIV> [snip] The starting villages should be reworked. Each starting village is assigned 2 trade skills, depending on the race that lives there. For example, Castleview has elves and frogs. So there would be a jewelry bench and forge. (One of each) Additionally, there would be a single NPC that sells both necessary fuel types for those trade skills UPTO level 20. What this basically means is, if you an elf and you want to cook, you just go to Babbleshire till 20th, then you leave and go to one of the previously mentioned city zones. (there would also be no writ givers in the starting villages, b/c you don’t start writs till 20th) This paragraph is where I start to have problems with this proposal. The villages should keep all of the services they have not, i.e. banker, broker, mender, at least one of each tradeskilling station, and NPC vendors for all tradeskilling and adventuring supplies. If someone does not care about housing decorations and has modest selling needs, they should have the option of staying in the village even at high levels. Some people prefer the cozier, more compact, more ethnic feel of a village. Let them stay and don't try to pry them out with "sticks". One of each TS station is necessary for each village because, as you pointed out, some TS professions (e.g. carpenter, weaponsmith) need multiple stations and the village set up should work for everyone. I, personally, would also like to see us able to buy those clipboards for our own houses, so we can build our own crafting areas that we can do writs in. </DIV>GREAT idea! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Please, please don't try to MAKE players do things. Give players incentives for certain choices, but avoid severe penalties as a motivator (like having to zone back and forth and back and forth to accomplish simple tasks). Remember that this is a game and that means developers should add more fun and less annoyance. Message Edited by Heattanu on 09-26-200609:57 AM Message Edited by Heattanu on 09-26-200610:01 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> The problem with the way things currently are is that there is no reason to ever leave the starting citys. Even if they (i?) wanted to, it's just so much easier in the starting citys. There is no benifit to the larger citys, and there should be. That said, if you kept everythign there, but made the material/crafting cap on the station, I think that would help the issue a lot. People can stay in the starting citys if they want to craft outside,a nd run around to get their materials. There would be no writs there. If they wanted writs and convience of full npc merchants, then they move to the big city?

Igu

09-26-2006, 10:42 PM

<DIV>I cant for the life of me understand why they are changing the current setup.</DIV> <DIV>The only thing I would change is to add a banker (and maybe change the layout of the Freeport instances).</DIV>

Alaeth

09-26-2006, 11:01 PM

<blockquote><hr>kavoelker wrote: The problem with the way things currently are is that there is no reason to ever leave the starting citys. Even if they (i?) wanted to, it's just so much easier in the starting citys. There is no benifit to the larger citys, and there should be. That said, if you kept everythign there, but made the material/crafting cap on the station, I think that would help the issue a lot. People can stay in the starting citys if they want to craft outside,a nd run around to get their materials. There would be no writs there. If they wanted writs and convience of full npc merchants, then they move to the big city?<hr></blockquote>The problem with that, though, is that no matter what you take away from the starting villages, the city zones are significantly larger and--at least in the case of FP--have much more complicated travel paths. Even if all amenities were added to every city zone, why would I want to leave Beggar's Court for some place like West Freeport when I can go from bell to mender to bank to house in less than a minute right now? In any of the city zones, making a fairly routine circuit like that would take significantly longer, and three out of four zones don't even have bells in the first place.Just taking away tradeskill amenities from the starting villages won't make the city zones any more convenient or attractive. I agree that moving people out of the nearly-free starter housing is probably a worthwhile goal from an economic perspective, but it utterly fails ergonomically given the current zone layouts, and no amount of handicapping tradeskillers in starting villages will change that.

Aela@Test

09-26-2006, 11:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alaeth wrote: The problem with that, though, is that no matter what you take away from the starting villages, the city zones are significantly larger and--at least in the case of FP--have much more complicated travel paths. Even if all amenities were added to every city zone, why would I want to leave Beggar's Court for some place like West Freeport when I can go from bell to mender to bank to house in less than a minute right now? In any of the city zones, making a fairly routine circuit like that would take significantly longer, and three out of four zones don't even have bells in the first place. Just taking away tradeskill amenities from the starting villages won't make the city zones any more convenient or attractive. I agree that moving people out of the nearly-free starter housing is probably a worthwhile goal from an economic perspective, but it utterly fails ergonomically given the current zone layouts, and no amount of handicapping tradeskillers in starting villages will change that. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Keep in mind, they have already removed the brokers from the starting villages. This means you'll need to goto one of the city zones already. (keep in mind, that way effecting tradeskillers, the broker removal effects all players)Message Edited by kavoelker on 09-26-2006 12:44 PM

Maroger

09-27-2006, 12:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kavoelker wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alaeth wrote: The problem with that, though, is that no matter what you take away from the starting villages, the city zones are significantly larger and--at least in the case of FP--have much more complicated travel paths. Even if all amenities were added to every city zone, why would I want to leave Beggar's Court for some place like West Freeport when I can go from bell to mender to bank to house in less than a minute right now? In any of the city zones, making a fairly routine circuit like that would take significantly longer, and three out of four zones don't even have bells in the first place. Just taking away tradeskill amenities from the starting villages won't make the city zones any more convenient or attractive. I agree that moving people out of the nearly-free starter housing is probably a worthwhile goal from an economic perspective, but it utterly fails ergonomically given the current zone layouts, and no amount of handicapping tradeskillers in starting villages will change that. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Keep in mind, they have already removed the brokers from the starting villages. This means you'll need to goto one of the city zones already. (keep in mind, that way effecting tradeskillers, the broker removal effects all players) Message Edited by kavoelker on 09-26-2006 12:44 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I got the impression that broker will be put back because of the newbies although the crafting stations maybe outdoors.

Aela@Test

09-27-2006, 01:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kavoelker wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>Keep in mind, they have already removed the brokers from the starting villages. This means you'll need to goto one of the city zones already. (keep in mind, that way effecting tradeskillers, the broker removal effects all players) </BLOCKQUOTE> Message Edited by kavoelker on 09-26-2006 12:44 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I got the impression that broker will be put back because of the newbies although the crafting stations maybe outdoors. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> There wasn't any information on that prior to today. I'm at work and haven't had a chance to see if they have made any decisions on the topic. Has there been any posts on the topic? (guesses she should go read and see)

Maroger

09-27-2006, 01:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kavoelker wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kavoelker wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>Keep in mind, they have already removed the brokers from the starting villages. This means you'll need to goto one of the city zones already. (keep in mind, that way effecting tradeskillers, the broker removal effects all players) </BLOCKQUOTE> Message Edited by kavoelker on 09-26-2006 12:44 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I got the impression that broker will be put back because of the newbies although the crafting stations maybe outdoors. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> There wasn't any information on that prior to today. I'm at work and haven't had a chance to see if they have made any decisions on the topic. Has there been any posts on the topic? (guesses she should go read and see) <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I got this idea based on the chat last night -- Glen asked about having stations outdoors + broker in newbie zones.

Magic

09-27-2006, 09:29 PM

If crafting becomes too inconvenient or laggy, I'll either do much less of it or cancel for a few months until things change more to my liking. I vote from my wallet because it has the most effect.