Playtesting feedback (25 Sept playtest, crafting station changes)

[Didi]

<DIV>Thread for opinions and thoughts from today's play test ... in hopes of keeping comments mostly in one place.  Post below! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After a lot of testing of actual lag and population issues, Glendral gathererd folks at the Claymore monument in NQ and asked a few questions: </DIV> <UL> <LI>Say in Elddar Grove, where there aren't really any buildings of any type of merchants, would you want to see a little tradeskill area set up, rather than trying to fit them into the buildings like they are now.  These would be in adddition to anything else, including instances or the like?</LI> <LI>Would you rather see 1 of each type of station in a village, or each village be a specific one (type of station) if we added them to the villages/hoods ?</LI> <LI>if we had one of each type (or more) of crafting station in villages/hoods (not in instances) plus banker/broker/etc., would just the main tradeskill instances (Ironforges/Coalition) be enough? </LI></UL> <DIV>When asked WHY all these proposed changes, Glendral's response was: <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG> "We really just want to try and make crafting more of the community, rather than the hidden thing in the basement" </STRONG></FONT>and<FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG> "The crafters are their own community, but separated from the adventurers.  We want to try and make it one big community."</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He also added, <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>"Thanks again for the feedback, we will be discussing this.  I'll try to post on the forums when we have reached a decision."</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>---</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Personal opinions:</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I think the testing proved pretty conclusively that outdoor crafting stations in only the main city zones is going to have serious performance issues.  Having the stations there in ADDITION to other stations elsewhere would be ok, but they can't be the only option as it is on test now.  Crafters were reporting they were unable to counter events, FRAPS showed my own framerate was dropping down to 1 fps in the worst areas and often around 12-15, whereas normal would be in the 30-40 area.  The buildings are too small and crowded for many crafters to fit into, and Sneed's was just a nightmare with the broker plus crafting stations together.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I think the main issue is the reduction in the number of available crafting areas, whether they're instanced or overland.  Currently if I want a loom in Qeynos, I have a choice of 3 looms in each of 6 newbie zone instances plus Ironforge Exchange.  That's 21 looms, in 7 locations, all of them close to fuel vendors, brokers, and writ givers.  If one area is crowded, it's easy to head to another.  The new layout provides far fewer stations and far fewer zones.  <EM><STRONG>Any good solution will need to provide as many different location options as we currently have, and they need to have the same easy accessibility to NPCs, broker, and bank.</STRONG></EM></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Regarding the point that crafters are isolated -- I strongly feel this is a false perception.  Physically, we may be sitting in crafting dungeons; but we aren't limited to speaking with people where we physically are.  Most conversation crafters have (indeed, most conversation anyone in this game has) is not affected by where they physically are, but takes place in channels, guild chat, group chat --- methods of communication not limited by physical location.  How often do you chat with someone next to you in /say, no matter whether you are a crafter or an adventurer?  Far more likely you're chatting in guild, and in channels.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>This is very true for crafters.  On most servers I've visited the crafting channels is viewed by many non-crafters as an excellent place to come to for friendly advice on all areas of the game, often quite unrelated to crafting.  People hang out in there who have no intention of ever crafting.  Crafters also lurk in the level channels and offer advice and opinions on all things crafting and non-crafting.  Personally, while I'm crafting I am normally chatting in the crafting channel, chatting in guild, and watching the newbie and level 1-9 channel for newbie questions I can help with.  I can't count the number of lost newbies I've helped with random questions, and then sent a couple of strong boxes to help them on their way.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text><STRONG><EM>Taking crafters out of the instances will not have any affect on how social they are or how they interact with the community.</EM></STRONG>  One's physical location has nothing at all to do with who one interacts with in this game.  Crafters are generally already very outgoing and social, regardless of where we are physically crafting.  I think the fundamental statement of intention (to make crafters a bigger part of the community by moving them out of the instances) is flawed.  Being in the basements is not stopping them from being that, and moving them out will not help make them more so.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>That said, I have no objection to moving out of the instances *<STRONG><EM>if it's no reduction in convenience</EM></STRONG>* and I expect that adding a full set of the crafting machines to newbie villages above ground instead of underground will work just fine.  Nicer view, and one less zone to reach the bank, that's got to be good.  But I truly don't think it will have any effect on the community interaction between crafters and non-crafters (which I think is already much higher than the devs apparently think it is).</SPAN></P> <P>One final, very essential note, however:  if crafting stations are going to go overland in villages, <STRONG><EM>mounts need to be disabled in the village zones once again</EM></STRONG>.  Ideally, mounts would be disabled in all city zones but we would keep the run speed buff.  If that's not possible however, disabling the mounts in newbie villages would be good enough.  But I really don't feel we can have crafting stations and brokers in the newbie zones and still have mounts visible -- the amount of lag, not to mention just the size of some of those ogre mounts, would make it horrible.</P> <P>Message Edited by Didi on <SPAN class=date_text>09-26-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:52 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Didi on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:57 AM</span>

[Goldenflig]

<DIV>First, thank you very much Glendral for taking the time to gather us around and ask how we felt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second: as suspected, it was very laggy. And crowded and cramped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third: I am probably  in a minority that enjoys crafting outdoors (has seen how good that can be in other games.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I must note:   I  agree with Neeta above. Community also occurs in chat channels, not just physically. As I said in NQ, the crafting community I am a part of takes place in the crafting chat channel. I have formed friendships with people I have never seen in game. The crafting chat channel on my server is also the place where a lot of players come looking for overall game advice. And where I, and many other crafters offer advice to all sorts of level of players (including new ones), via the other chat channels. Keeping an eye on chat, and being able to chat while crafting (in non-lag situations) is part of the joy of crafting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fourth: Keeping easy / quick access to crafting (all tables), mailboxes, broker, banker and apartments is important.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fifth:  An outdoor crafting area with access (see above) as long as it is not in a major city zone (please avoid NQ, SQ, QH) is acceptable.  Please disenable mounts in this zone!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sixth: As long as (for other crafters): there are additional crafting stations/broker available in the starting villages. I personally don't care if those are via an instance or outside (under awnings). I understand many crafters like the cozy, get-away-from-it-all feel of the TS. I support them. They are part of my community.  If, in order to save space, the instances need to be reduced to 1 station only each per craft,   I can support that as well. :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: one last comment:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to be to see/test whatever the new design is, if that is possible. Thank you.</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>- Summeraire</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Goldenflight on <SPAN class=date_text>09-25-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:50 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Goldenflight on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:56 PM</span>

[Pullo]

<P>Quite a few people showed up.  NQ was over 100 the entire time... at one point there were 140 people between levels 1 and 30 alone.</P> <P>The bad news, many reported long load times and crashes.  I can attest that it took well over 15 seconds for objects to load around the forge.  Also with as many as a dozen crowded around some craftng stations I'm certain finding the clibboards for invoices was challenging and possibly impossible depending on who parked near them.</P> <P>The good news.  Writs were doable.  I was four for four with the armorer and one for one with the carpenter through the event, with time to spare.  This was crafting on a flying carpet with a mushroom pet out and using the most shiny/glowy objects I could equip while others ran around on horses with numerous pets.  Stress is an understatement! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Time remaining was less than my normal timed writs, but within comfort zone.  That said, I'm not sure it would have worked with my alchemist as writs frequently have six unique combines.  I have no idea of 150-200 people in a zone is normal on live (I'm guessing not, but it is feasible it could happen).</P> <P>I appreciated the opportunity to provide feedback and discussion, the 'town hall' at the Claymore was nice.</P> <P>General thoughts:</P> <P>- At least one instance would be good</P> <P>- Balanced amenities per village are critical</P> <P>- The clipboards need to be bigger objects if the stations can get crowded</P> <P>- It's possible that all instances should be left in, at least for a time, and phased out (or reduced to the Ironforge only option) if usage shifts to outdoor zones.</P> <P>- We didn't have rain during the playtest, it's absolutely critical that load testing occurs in actual play conditions.  This concerns me.</P> <P>I can see some variant of this option working, but it needs to be phased in very slowly and deliberately.</P> <P>Interesting session though.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Piltow]

<P>I will post my general feedback when I calm down.</P> <P>2 things put me off the whole thing.</P> <P>1 - Devs forcing different playstyles to mix by taking away something that works from 1 of them.</P> <P>2 - The dev that oversaw the playtest used a character that was unskilled in tradeskills. I did an inspeck Lvl 33 adventure..unskilled tradeskill.</P> <P> </P>

[ZeyGnome]

<P>Well, as an Alchemist, I can tell you, it wasn't possible to do the writs.  I ended up with failures on each I tried, whereas I have never failed a writ prior to today except when I tried talking during writting.</P> <P>The conversation at the end was hopeful.</P> <P>If the only reason for doing this is to force people to socialize, then it's being done for the wrong reason.  No one likes being forced to do anything.  Look at the amount of angst you get when grouping was forced.</P> <P>Several options mentioned by Glendral's posts were interesting.  One of which was each village had a specific type of craft assigned to it (all open air, but with Ironforge and Coaltion as the only tradeskill instances as we knew it).  If that was the case, and the outside the city zones were added too (TS, CL, etc) then it could be workable.  Certainly more workable than the current fiasco.</P> <P>All in all though, the original set up was best, but adding the option to craft in the open air would have been a better choice.  As I said, if the only reason for doing away with these instances were to force a community atmosphere, then it will be doomed to failure.  </P> <P>As stated by many people, the instances themselves were a community in itself, and people did socialize within those instances, a lot more than they did in towns.</P> <P>If for some reason we are forced into this situation exactly as it is right now on test, then the guild requirements for the tradeskill benches need to be removed, and their cost substantially lowered.</P> <P>I liked crafting prior to this change, now I feel like I am enduring it.</P> <P> </P>

[SideshowBob]

<P>The Tradeskill changes idea sucks, and here's why:</P> <P>You say that you want to bring crafters out of their dungeons, and make crafting more a part of the community...</P> <P>Unfortunately, it's a little late for that and you might have wanted to consider the ramifications when you started making most dropped items in the game far more desireable than anything crafters could hope to make.</P> <P>Adventurers simply do NOT need crafters anymore, with the exception of possibly drinks and repair kits, and maybe a totem thrown in here and there.</P> <P>Even without the level cap, most players want THE BEST for their characters. Therefore, they are focused almost exclusively on raiding and "getting their toons relic'd, mastered, and fabled".  If you take two characters of the same level and class but one is decked out in Mastercrafted gear with Adept 3's, and the other is decked out in Masters and fabled gear, who do you think is going to get picked last for dodgeball? Even named mobs are farmed because they drop better items than crafters can make with high chances of masters dropping.</P> <P>If you are truly, seriously interested in making crafters a vital part of the community AS A WHOLE, then you need to focus on the real issue: <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>THE QUALITY OF THEIR PRODUCTS!</STRONG></FONT> Not the fact that they craft in instanced zones.</P> <P>And those instanced zones, as that LAGFEST we just went through known as the Playtest showed, are necessary not only to cut down on the lag which can cause crafters to miss reactives and lose pristine crafts on rare items (not to mention timed writs), but also can cause non-crafters just as much grief as they are lagged all to heck just trying to traverse those same zones.</P> <P>And please don't forget the crafters who happen to enjoy the relative peace and quiet of those crafting zones -- away from the duels, the NPC chat spam...  Just a place to go where they can focus on their work...</P> <P>Honestly, I applaud you for wanting to "help" crafters become a larger presence in the EQ2 community as a whole.  But this forcing them to craft out in the open like animals on display in a zoo, isn't the solution.</P> <P>It's the products they're making that is the issue...</P>

[Xalmat]

I posted this in the other thread, i'll CC it here (and I second <I>everything</I> Didi said) :Glendral,The changes suck. Here's why.First, the framerate lag in Qeynos and Freeport is higher than most every zone in the game. Especially on lower end machines that barely meet system requirements, traversing the city proper literally means taking 5 or 10 minutes to get from one end of the zone to the other. Moving your character in such an environment is very hit or miss, and NOT fun. Even higher end systems sometimes struggle to keep up. That's <i>before</i> you start gathering large amounts of people in one area.Second, it always seems that zones poorly handle a large number of people in them as far as network latency goes. This is always a reoccuring issue when zone populations reach near triple digits, and it starts to affect spell casts and combat arts. When tradeskill instances start to get laggy, the network latency is often large enough to make you miss your reaction arts to counter tradeskill events.Third, as for what's on Test right now, the placement of many stations is very poor and doesn't work well with the way the cities are designed. In order for it to work, MANY buildings would need to undergo major architectural revamps to avoid players getting stuck either by objects like tables and desks, pets, NPCs, or other players. Also, in the case of classes that use multiple stations (especially Carpenters), they are MUCH too spread far apart, and absolutely need to be closer.In the playtest you stated "The crafters are there own community, but separated from the adventurers. We want to try and make it one big community." I myself have several problems with that statement. First, crafting is, by definition, separate from adventuring. They help each other, but they are sometimes mutually exclusive goals. When an adventurer wants crafted gear he seeks a crafter because he wants to buy goods. However, a crafter will rarely seek an adventurer and try to <i>sell</i> goods to that adventurer, except maybe through the global chat channels. Part of the reason may be because Artisans are hiding in dungeons, but the biggest reason is because of the huge parity between crafted gear and very common mob dropped gear. Removing the instances may expose the artisan community more, but it won't help the underlying problem of crafted gear being undesirable compared to common mob drops.The crafting community on Test seems VERY united in what they want: Keep the status quo as it is, because it works and it works extremely well. Few are opposed to the idea of putting crafting stations in the city proper as a choice (along with other essentials such as bankers, brokers, fuel merchants, and the like), but almost all seem opposed to removing the instances completely.You said one possibility is to keep the Ironforge Exchange, and the Coalition of Tradefolk. However, if you keep those two instances only, and remove the rest (no matter how you decide to implement it), you <i>will</i> see the vast majority of crafters flocking to these instances to get away from the framerate lag fest in the city proper.Any zone that has crafting stations needs crafting stations in locations that make sense for them to be, are easy to get to without getting stuck, and need excellent proximity to a mailbox, fuel vendor, bank, broker, writ givers, <U><i>and</I></U> all other crafting stations that a player will likely use. Right now, none of the city zones meet all these requirements. If it were to go Live tomorrow, it would be a complete disaster for the Tradeskill community.I would also like to add that I would pay 100 plat and 50 million status points to have my own personal fuel merchant in my house, so I could craft there in peace!<p>Message Edited by Xalmat on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:56 PM</span>

[Maroger]

<P>1. Having crafting stations other than in instances will cause the zone to lag the population gets large.</P> <P>2. If you put just stations in the villages, it will be awful at night with people on horses, carpets, pets etc. --it will be impossible to craft and do writs. You saw that tonight in Qeynos.</P> <P>3. Also lag will increase when it rains if you put the stations outdoors.</P> <P>4. Instances are convenient as everything is neatly packaged in one zone which had one purpose -- CRAFTING.</P> <P>5. People will be running all over the zones if you make outdoor crafting stations and getting in each other ways during peak hours.</P> <P>6. I think you should leave everything the way it is. Put stations in the outdoor zones if you want but leave the newbie villages and main town instances as they are now. Don't try to fix what isn't broken!</P> <P>7. It is not the job of SOE to dictate how people socialize or if and when they socialize. I am not sure why you think crafting and adventuring must be forcibly co-mingled. Remember how well forced grouping went over? Well this smacks of the same thing. Forcing changes of behaviour on people is usually disastrous especially in a game where people go to have fun. Maybe they don't feel like socializing -- forcing radical changes on players will end up costing you customers. </P> <P>I am not even sure why you care, or if you should care whether adventuring and crafting are co-mingled? What is the purpose in that? Are you changing the direction of the game? Remember you have made it better for players who solo -- is some new grand social scheme going to make you change game play so people can no longer solo? </P> <P>Let me repeat:To me the reason you gave smacks too much of Socialism -- the USSR demonstrated it did not work, EQ1 showed you what a disaster "forced grouping" was.  Game designers have no business trying to create forced socializing environments -- players who want to socialize will, those who don't won't and if you try to make them they will cancel their account. Is that what you really want to have happen?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Mimosa]

<DIV>It was nice to see proof that the devs do listen, at least when a lot of players agree on something :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't mind the idea of having the stations outdoors in the villages, it always seemed odd to me that you can't use the forges outside the armor shop in NQ. Personally I've always found it annoying to have to zone back and forth to go to the bank or buy new books. That should probably be tested as this was tonight before going live. An announced playtest time like today would be nice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They need to be close together and close to the writ givers. The current setup on test I can't see how you could possibly complete a rush order, and it definately gives an advantage to those who can afford higher runspeed enhancements.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can understand the motivation for the changes, but given the way crafting works its important not to have lag. I'm always looking for the less crowded places to craft. Some instances already have too much lag, like Willow Wood. Maybe its me, but I find I miss more counters when its more crowded. A setup like Haven, where theres an area with all the crafting NPC's and stations seems ok to me. I'm not sure all the villages have an area that would work well for that though. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, it was really great to see the community jump in to test it, and provide feedback, and the devs listening and soliciting everyone's ideas. Nicely done, on both sides!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Animox]

<DIV>The test was a disaster in my opinion.  I will explain:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1)  The lag was the worst I have ever seen.  I bought my computer to play EQII.  I have the best hardware available in November 2004, so the game should at least be playable.  I play one step below balanced to remove the grass and weeds look from the outdoors.  From the time I zoned in to NQ and visited the trainer, the broker, the bank, and the fuel merchant and finally made it to the keg & stove 35 minutes had elapsed. It was an EQII slideshow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)  I crafted 2 items and crashed to the desktop.  My 3.4 ghz, 256 GT6800 SE, and 1 GB of ram could not handle the load of people, pets, horses, and spell effects, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3)  The crafting community is just fine.  No one wants this change.  We like our crafting instances.  Everything is perfectly organized and available.  As one astute player stated, perhaps there would be better community between crafter and adventurer if we had something to sell that an adventurer would want to buy.  Other than drinks, what does a crafter have to offer that cannot be easily obtained elsewhere, for free and at a higher quality?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4)  Forcing players to do anything is always a recipe for failure.  MMO's are about freedom of choice.  If I wanted a linear, structured game I would'nt be playing an MMO.</DIV>

[Kenrod]

<div></div>I would enjoy 'outdoor' crafting, but having everything in one spot would seem to be a little silly. There are a lot of different options in Freeport that could make it much more immersive imo. As a jeweler, I would LOVE to go to the jewelry store in NFP and theres a couple of tables, some writ guys and a wholesaler, and craft away. The same could be said about the Alchemy shop right down the road. Take out the npc merchants and throw in a wholesaler and some writ guys, and bam it's heaven. I'd like that much more than seeing a set of tables around the bend in WFP sticking out like a sore thumb. But..still leave the instances the way they are. That way if say I don't want to  be bothered, I can run down into the cave and hide away. But if i feel like peddling my wares on the street, everyone knows to go to the jewelry store and find something they're looking for. As it has been since launch, I can't see why anyone would ever set foot in there for any reason. Take advantage of what's already there instead of throwing in some new stuff.The only thing i'd like to comment on as far as jewelers go is this. Put some minor resists back on jewelry. Stats are all well and good, but when i changed over from my pre-update T6 rare gear to T7 new gear, my stats improved greatly but my resists are down the toilet. I know the lockets and studs and all that are solely for filling this gap, but of all of those i have made, selling 1g for T5 commons, i've sold maybe 2 on the broker. There's never another one up to compete with me, people just don't want it. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kenrod on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 PM</span>

[Xdatinelia]

<P>I for one am in a minority, playing on a less than stellar machine I expected crashes, ect.  What I got was long load and zoneing times, and a few fps issues here and there.  I like the new tradeskill out of the instance feel.   Leaveing in one instance (ironforge and coalition) would help I think alleviate some of the lag concerns, and let those with less then omg machines have a place to go.  I can honestly say atm if this went live tommorw, besides a few placement issues noted in other threads, I would be happy with it, and would craft outside rather than inside the hole.</P>

[tweety1972]

Make it like any other out of city zone (irongforge 1 or 2 or 3) and it MIGHT work, I say don't change it but if you must MAKE THEM INSTANCED. so we can avoid the lag that is coming

[SanDalghi]

Did anyone happen to ask if personal crafting stations were definitely staying in  the game?<div></div>

[Rijacki]

The concept of moving the tradeskillers "out of the dungeon" is not a bad one, but the execution of it has been exceptionally flawed.The bad:- Reducing the number of crafting stations overall and not having essential craft related services near the crafting stations (writ givers, tradeskill delegates/trainers, -proper- fuel merchants, bank, broker, etc) is nothing short of ludicrous.  It concentrates the tradeskillers nearer to the -few- places where they can find most (but never all, I noticed) services relatively close.- Putting the primary (most complete number of tradeskill stations and services) in the biggest city zones which have LONG been a source of lag complaints is a guarentee of disaster.- Having tradeskill stations with a crafting system relying on a small measure of player skill in timing events and counters and then putting those in places where mounts, rampent pets, duels, effects, etc are the norm means the skill of the player is negated by lag.- Having a tradeskill system reliant on being able to be within a close proximity of the tradeskill station and target it while other "distractions" are allowed creates even more problems.-Having -choices- of where to craft and having some of them include locations outside of "dungeons" is not a bad idea, it just should not be the only choice (only means no choice).The good:-Adding a -few- crafting stations to the main city zones (with at least one of each -and- services close by) to give it flavour is rather nice.  Having been in the Freeport zones before today's test (my not oft played Test character is Freeport based), I saw some rather nice placements of crafting stations that added to the ambiance and looked like they belonged (many though were horridly out of place and some had the wrong fuel or no fuel anywhere near).  -Having crafting stations out in the open might give the feel of more players since they won't be tucked away, hidden from view.The suggestions:-Have at least 1 crafting station per type outside of the instance in each of the villages/hoods, either inside -logical- buildings (either removing furniture already there and putting in the crafting stations.. like in some of the Freeport locations) or outside the building, and also have a delegate, trainer, writ givers, fuel seller, and broker.  Or if you want those to be 'starter' or convenience stations, have all the services except the writ givers (but still have the clipboards).-Have at least 1 of each crafting station type in each of the city zones, but only in -logical- locations, inside buildings or our, and with lots of room around them -and- mindful of the potential lag (in otherwords, not 3 or 4 different crafting stations in the same cramped building with the broker).  Also have all the services (delegate, trainer, writ givers, fuel sellers, clipboards, etc).-Retain an instance for the Tradeskill Coalition (kinda foolish to have -no- connection to tradeskills there as it is on Test currently) and the Ironforge estate.  That would be an available location for those people who have lag issues or who want a "quieter" atmosphere.  To keep it as an "option" but not the only choice, omit the broker there, but keep the rest, especially the writ givers, fuel merchant(s), and faction goods merchant.  That might make it a primary place for writs but not make it the only choice for tradeskilling.-Add tradeskill "nooks" in places like Windstalker village with or without the ability to easily do writs (but if no writ givers and the like, then their own crafting related quests or reasons to be chosen for crafting).But... note the number of tradeskill stations on Live now and don't have fewer than that even if they are in locations different than they are now.<div></div>

[Zaldor]

<P>I would be able to give constructive feedback about the playtest, however, it was not at a convenient time for people that have to work for a living.  </P> <P>But, from what I've read, there's probably no way that there could have been any good data because of outright lagging out and/or crashing that would have occured had they done a true playtest and not this one.</P> <P>Also, what does it matter how the performance was?  The simple fact it that people don't care how it runs, they just don't want instances taken away.  That's the bottom line.</P> <P>There is something about this idea that we have to come out and be a part of the "adventure" community that is really putting me out.  Do they have keggers in town that we are missing while we are down in the instances?  I don't get it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Zaldor - I bought two collector's editions when this game came out for the tradeskilling, man was that dumb</P>

[Kenikia]

<div></div><div></div>Crafting stations outdoor is a great idea   IN ADDITION to keeping the existing tradeskill instances.  Since most of my crafters ten tto be in teh mid 20s-mid 30s, I jump crafting stations a lot.  Sometimes my Sage goes back and makes fighter spells for friends, sometimes she makes jewelry...every once in awhile she skis down to the tier 1 stuff to make something for a brand new toon.  Making me run all over creation to get anything done does nothing for my immersion factor - in fact it takes away from it greatly.Getting people together into the tradeskill instances is nice.  ITs like going to work -- which a crafter would be doing.  I go to work , produce some goods.  I don't need to be out in the open, I don't need to be in the rain, I don't need those annoying people who think we are there just for them.  It makes it a bit easy for the adventuring type running by to be like "Make me this now".  I am an adventurer.  I am a crafter.  Let me keep my peaceful tradeskill instance for when i need to produce goods.  Make public outdoor stations for those that want them but don't take something we love away from the rest of us** oh and as a side note, since I play on a PvP server...I dont' really like the idea of my crafter being that out in the open - easy to attack.  Crafters are not front line kinda people....they are behind the scenes.  Yes there is a little danger in the instances but nothing like being out in the open of the city.  Please keep that in mind also<div></div><p><span class="time_text">~~~ <font color="#ff9900">Keone/Shalivix/Exacia</font> - Nagafen server (starting over from another server for a little excitement <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</span></p><p>Message Edited by Kenikia on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:18 PM</span>

[Kesah]

<DIV>Voting NO as play tested tonight and over the weekend. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In response to the social aspects of crafting:    There are so many ways of going about bringing the communities together that it is difficult to answer.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The short answer is of course Options.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Long answer full of personal opinions are: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Player made items that are desirable to purchase by adventurers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tradeskill instances in every zone along with the needed banks and brokers in each zone. This alone would get me to move into the city. If there were instances in every zone along with a bank and broker. Would not move for outside only crafting even with bankers and brokers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In <U>addition</U> to the instanced zones in every city and village zone, a bazaar or market with all the tables in <U>one</U> large building, under tent or whatever (no zone)  for crafters looking for work and adventurers looking for crafted goods. This needs to look like a bazaar or market not slinking into some business I do not own or have a relationship with to steal the use of their tools. This would NOT be a place you would do writs, just a place to act as a player based free market. You could do this in the villages or in any underutilized city zone. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, I kept it as short as possible. In summary Tradeskill Instance with bank and broker in every zone AND a outside bazaar or market for community crafting and trading. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Caethre]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>OOC.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff6600>The Playtest</FONT></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>I took part in this with my own test character, Cerianna, a level 23 templar / level 22 sage, whom I brought along to </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>Sneeds in North Qeynos, to work on a non-timed work order as part of this test.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>There were at the height of the test, over 100 people in the zone.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>The lag was very bad. Combines were taking a long time, and some counters were missed just due to the lag. It took me </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>almost an hour to complete the work order (although this included a long search for the clipboards amongst the crowd of </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>people (sigh) and several trips to the bank. The crowding around the workstation was incredibly bad, and the number of </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>people (and mounts!) and their movement was upsetting my PC at times, causing me to crash to desktop with an out of memory error on one occasion. (I have a decent PC, 4GB RAM, 1GB graphics card, not the top of the range but not too bad, and no, it is not on top settings, just middling ones, which are fine for me 99.9% of the time on Antonia Bayle).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Then Glendral called us all to the Claymore to chat. The resulting crowd caused me just to keep crashing with graphics </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>memory issues, so I gave up and logged back to Antonia Bayle to join the Test.test channel from there.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff6600>Comments on the Proposed Changes</FONT></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Now for my comments on these proposed changes. I refer in the entire post to Qeynos (all my characters are good), but I imagine the situation is similar in Freeport as well. I will take some quotes made by Glendral during the event, and </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>answer them (I missed most of his specific questions at the end due to the constant crashing). All times are in British Summer Time, if anyone wanted to know.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Two related comments (made seperately) :-</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>[Tue Sep 26 00:31:54 2006] Glendral says out of character, "im not saying that its exact, im just trying to explain </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>that we want to test stuff so we can get feedback"<BR>[Tue Sep 26 01:18:37 2006] Glendral BROADCASTS, "Posts such as "it sucks, here is why in a constructive manner, will be read."</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Thank you sir. To use Glendral's own phrase, the changes *as currently implemented on Test* do indeed "SUCK" *chuckle*,  and I explain why in the words that follow.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>[Tue Sep 26 00:52:20 2006] Glendral BROADCASTS, "We really do want people to get out of the tradeskill instances and </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>into the cities so that your not stuck inside an instance seperated from people."</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>I am a roleplayer, in some senses, a hardcore roleplayer. I do like immersion in the game, and I am not keen on the </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>idea of having things that dont make sense, like forges underwater or in a treetop or even sitting in the grass in </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>Eldarr Grove would be strange. However, craftsmen gathering in crafting halls does seem to "make sense" to me.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>So bearing this in mind, I have to ask, why exactly do you want people "out of the instances"? Personally, I love </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>instances, </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>and I think they fit the game. Furthermore, it seems </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>almost arbitrary to remove them now, two years after release. Am </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>I to assume there is another reason for wanting this change? Such as freeing up server-side resource for other things? </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>If so, why not just admit it, that would be a reason with merit.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>But if it is just a roleplay/community reason, I would have to say, my characters would actively prefer being with other crafters (especially other Koada`Dal crafters!) and not with non-crafters when they are crafting! Furthermore, for many crafters, being in a crafting zone is sending a message to other players, that they are crafting! Well, that is my opinion anyway, but when all is said and done, loss of crafting instances would not be the end of the world. As long as what replaced them was sufficient to meet the needs of the crafting community.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Regardless, if I let that go, then the next question is - why on Test is there such a massive decrease in the total number of crafting station per craft in the city? </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>Currently in Qeynos on Live, there are how many - is it 6 villages with a tradeskill instance? Then there is the one in Qeynos </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>Harbour, making seven. Each of these has 3 crafting stations for each trade, so we have is that 21 crafting stations </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>per tradeskill spread over 7 zones. These zones all contain brokers, fuel vendors and writ-givers, and most are just a </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>few steps to a zoneline (with a fast zone time) away from a bank and a recipe-book seller. The key word is - </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>convenient!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>However, on Test now, there are how many crafting stations per tradeskill? Down from 21 to 6 perhaps? So a huge reduction. </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>Furthermore, they are in the laggiest zones in the entire game (Qeynos Harbour, South Qeynos and North Qeynos), zones many of us avoid due to the lag to begin with! Add to this, the distances one has to run between </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>writ-givers, bank etc (if there is one - there is not one at all in South Qeynos, so thats a long run and slow zone to </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>another zone and back for a bank trip) are now longer. The key words here are - lag-infested, overcrowded and i</FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>nconvenient.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>And to add to this, we are being pushed out of the villages that some of us actually want to be part of, as members of </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>the community. Want a RP reaction? </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>Darn it, my characters are uncomfortable having to live in the human city, no matter how benevolent its leaders, because they let the evil filthy Teir`Dal and their subserviant evil races in. Qeynos is nothing like the majesty of Felwithe, where </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>such evil was kept OUT, but at least in Castleview it is *mostly* Koada`Dal and </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>Frogloks, so there is at least some sense of community!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>[Tue Sep 26 00:54:32 2006] Glendral BROADCASTS, "We will be adding crafting stations in the overland zones as well."</FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>There is nothing wrong with this, of course. But you should also realize, that if the resources that crafters crave (banker, broker, fuel-sellers, writ-givers) are not all close by, the out of city ones will be underused. I know if I am planning a normal crafting session, I am absolutely not going to travel out of the city to a crafting station where if I find I am missing one item or want to buy/sell or change coin, I just have to come back to the city again. It would be a waste of my most precious resource (as a player) - my time!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>[Tue Sep 26 01:02:24 2006]Glendral says out of character, "okay so say in Elddar Grove, where there arent really any </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>buildings or any type of merchants, would you want to see  a little tradeskill area set up."</FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>This is a valid point. A forge in Eldar Grove might look inconsistent. However, by the same argument, a forge in Castleview, in Willow Wood, in Nettleville, in Baubleshire, etc - would look perfectly reasonable. Each is a racial community, and would have its own crafting facilities. So ok, forget forges in Eldarr Grove, but put them everywhere else please.</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>[Tue Sep 26 01:10:26 2006] Glendral BROADCASTS, "If we had one of each type(or more) in villages/hoods, would just the main tradeskill instances be enough(coalition/ironforge)?"</FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>This was one of the last things I heard before my chain-crashing started. It sounded a lot better. The answer would </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>probably be yes - one or more of each type in each village and the main instance in QH (and freeport equivalent) would </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>likely work well.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>So, rather than just tell you a list of reasons why I dislike the Test changes, I will now come up with some constructive alternatives:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>1) Don't change anything at all. Yes, that is an option, unless there are other reasons for doing this that we are not </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>currently being informed of.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>2) Ok, remove the instances. However, put crafting stations in all the villages as well as in the city centres. This </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>might make the villages somewhat crowded, but it won't be anything like as bad as North Qeynos was tonight, because </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>people will be spread over all of them. It would also mean players like myself could choose remain in their communities </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>- in my case, Castleview Hamlet.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>3) Make sure there are lots of crafting stations overall, and that the resources that crafters actually want for </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>convenience are close by and clearly labelled with plenty of detaied quest help for finding brokers, bankers, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>writgivers, "clipboards" and crafting stations.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff6600>Summary</FONT></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>I had not posted on this issue til now, as I wanted to try the playtest before commenting. Now having taken part in the </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>playtest, my view is a big thumbs DOWN on these proposed changes. I won't mince my words, they are a disaster in terms of community reaction waiting to happen, and I suggest some significant changes are made in line with the comments of the Test community at large, and folks like Niami and Calthine and others, before any changes go to live.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Felishanna.</FONT></DIV></DIV>

[Kendricke]

<blockquote><hr>Didi wrote:<P><SPAN class=time_text>Regarding the point that crafters are isolated -- I strongly feel this is a false perception.  Physically, we may be sitting in crafting dungeons; but we aren't limited to speaking with people where we physically are.  Most conversation crafters have (indeed, most conversation anyone in this game has) is not affected by where they physically are, but takes place in channels, guild chat, group chat --- methods of communication not limited by physical location.  How often do you chat with someone next to you in /say, no matter whether you are a crafter or an adventurer?  Far more likely you're chatting in guild, and in channels.</SPAN> <hr></blockquote>There's an old saying I tend to repeat quite a bit within my guild that "nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd". I bring this up because one of the largest complaints I hear about Everquest 2 is that our cities don't feel "alive" like cities in other games...especially when compared to cities like World of Warcraft.Those players aren't complaining about a lack of chat. They're complaining about a lack of actual players running around. Just being in chat channels isn't enough. (It's a bit like saying you don't need to go out with your friends, because they can talk to you online anytime they want so what's the difference, right?)In a game like Everquest 2 with a large virtual world, that has quite a bit of instancing, it's hard enough to bump into other players. Just being able to hear the players in a chat channel simply isn't going to replace the actual sight of more PC's where it matters.

[Finora]

<P>Some somewhat disjointed observations, impressions and suggestions from the test.</P> <P>I only have a tailor on test so that is what I did. The NQ tailoring shop was so crowded at one point I could not get out. I was trapped back where the loom was. There simply was not room enough for all the people, mounts, pets and the sheer quantity of furniture shoved into such a tiny space. I'd say one loom in there would have to be enough, 2 is just too much. Either that or you'd have to remove so much of the nice 'atmospheric furniture' like the racks with bolts of cloth.</P> <P>The tailoring station I found in SQ wasn't as cramped, but felt like it was jammed up in the attic because people didn't know what to do with it. In that particular case I'd say actually to add more atmospheric items to make it feel more like a over the store tailoring workshop rather than just somewhere you threw the loom. </P> <P>I rather liked the forges outside in NQ, however the placement of those could be a bit better. They really look like they were just kinda of tossed over near the shop willy nilly with no thought to how pathways by them and around them to the building would be.</P> <P>The placement of the Tradeskill delegates/writgivers/etc was a bit absurd. There needs to be a better place to put them even if it is adding a little tent somewhere. It doesn't make much sense for people who are apparently somewhat well established in the tradeskill societies to stand around out in the rain twiddling their thumbs waiting for us to come.</P> <P>The amount of lag produced from having us crafting in SQ/NQ was terrible. Even after we split between zones I had enough lag that I was missing counters, failing combines, and botching writs (things that really just don't happen on live servers unless I'm distracted). Upon walking up to an area where either NPCs or crafting tables were it would take a bit for them to actually render. Not to mention the huge increase to zonetimes.</P> <P>Despite the fact that most of the areas for crafting areas being absolutely crammed and cramped with machines, npcs and random other bits of furniture, there simply would not be enough crafting stations as it was tonight for people to be comfortable. Definately if this plan goes forward, there need to be at least as many crafting stations as there are on live now readily available (as in not tucked away in some treestump halfling hidey hole in Rivervale or somesuch). While it'd be nice to have some there just because, the really out of the way ones really should be in addition to the current numbers. As for more 'out in the world' I can easily picture the building Matsy is in having a stove and keg. There is an ideal place right outside there for a forge by the dwarf. There are stacks of wood around back, toss up a lean-to or awning and you have a good spot to put a woodworking table.</P> <P>I'm not opposed to people being able to craft outside of the instances. But there should be instances left available for those who would choose to use them. They should remain just as convient as they are currently (as in having all the amenities we've become accustomed to). I'd say leave instances in the villages. Place any additional outdoor stations in sensible locations so they don't look like they just fell off a wagon and no one has gotten around to shifting them yet. It wouldn't be a bad thing to see all the tradeskill stations outdoors in the villages, however the villages are small. Their placement would have to be well thought out.</P> <P>What ever happens, villages need to have all crafting stations, bankers, brokers, writ givers, fuel/book merchants etc. The ones in the main city zones if they are going to stay, need to be placed more sensibly giving some thought to the ease of access. </P> <P> </P>

[Kordran]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR>In a game like Everquest 2 with a large virtual world, that has quite a bit of instancing, it's hard enough to bump into other players. Just being able to hear the players in a chat channel simply isn't going to replace the actual sight of more PC's where it matters.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Crafters are not organ grinder monkeys, there to entertain adventurers and make folks think that the would is more active with the "actual sight of more PC's". And the playability for crafters should not be compromised for your (or anyone else's) enjoyment or immersion in the game. And if you're just making the point of "crowds draw crowds", I say who the heck cares? All a crowd does is put our framerates in the toilet... wanting larger crowds of people in the city so it seems more "real" is like saying you want a frontal lobotomy so you'll never be sad again. It makes zero sense in any practical way.</P> <P>Fundamentally, it sounds like SoE is trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. At least not in the minds of the people for whom the changes affect the most. And as far as the community stuff is concerned, the thing that affects participation in the community the most is rush order writs, not where the crafting is done. No time for idle chit-chat when you're doing those.</P>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<P>My Humble Opinions:</P> <P>I am actually looking forward to getting out of the crafting dungeon. </P> <P>That said, I would very much like to see (1) dungeon in each in Qeynos & Freeport stay  ** but ** I would like a revamp of the lay-out of the dungeons .. make them 1 level and an open floorplan with only 1 each of the TS devices.   That way we have the option of doing the dungeon and additional TS devices but with potential for crowding in that (1) zone people will prefer to go outside. </P> <P>I would also like to see each Hamlet & Slum have their own set of Tradeskill Devices.  Or, at least "activate" the ones that are already in each of the zones .. </P> <P>I am very much looking forward to the day that the Devs add in MORE TS devices in OTHER areas.  ie: Windstalker Village, the Crossroads ...</P> <P>Wouldn't it be nice if you "dinged" T3 crafting and were able to go to The Thundermist Village and had access to your Tradeskill devices, fuel and <U>harvesting supplies</U>?   Or, anywhere else we have a sort of "village" mock up.  It only makes sense that they could add functioning Tradeskill devices to those areas ..</P> <P>That would ease off the pressure of the Lag for the Home Cities .. and .. don't forget that there is now going to be another "goodie" home and we'll have the same type of Open Tradeskill Devices there as well ..</P> <P>Before we know it we will have options for those TS Grind sessions coming out our ears! </P> <P>So, even though for the next few Game Updates we might be abit croweded .. I am of the opinion that the changes are towards a better crafting experience!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>---</P> <P>But, Horses and Carpets and "other mounts"; seriously need to remove Player Mounts in the City Zones again!   Even if it just hides the mount and the player still gets the run speed!  Something so that everyone isn't having to load up everyone's mount!  </P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<blockquote><hr>Kordran wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Kendricke wrote:In a game like Everquest 2 with a large virtual world, that has quite a bit of instancing, it's hard enough to bump into other players. Just being able to hear the players in a chat channel simply isn't going to replace the actual sight of more PC's where it matters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Crafters are not organ grinder monkeys, there to entertain adventurers and make folks think that the would is more active with the "actual sight of more PC's". And the playability for crafters should not be compromised for your (or anyone else's) enjoyment or immersion in the game. And if you're just making the point of "crowds draw crowds", I say who the heck cares? All a crowd does is put our framerates in the toilet... wanting larger crowds of people in the city so it seems more "real" is like saying you want a frontal lobotomy so you'll never be sad again. It makes zero sense in any practical way.</P><P>Fundamentally, it sounds like SoE is trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. At least not in the minds of the people for whom the changes affect the most. And as far as the community stuff is concerned, the thing that affects participation in the community the most is rush order writs, not where the crafting is done. No time for idle chit-chat when you're doing those.</P><hr></blockquote>Don't get upset with me for introducing a differing perspective. I'm simply pointing out that the idea that "crafters are social...in chat channels" isn't addressing the issue.Frankly, it affects me if server population is negatively impacted because players don't stick around in part because there aren't enough "warm bodies" around.In addition, this is another reason why introducing more tradeskill implements without removing the instances wouldn't work...because a number of players would simply continue to utilize the underground spaces they're already used to.That said, I also like the changes overall, minus the obvious bugs and lag issues, of course.<p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:09 PM</span>

[Goldenflig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Didi wrote:<BR> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Regarding the point that crafters are isolated -- I strongly feel this is a false perception.  Physically, we may be sitting in crafting dungeons; but we aren't limited to speaking with people where we physically are.  Most conversation crafters have (indeed, most conversation anyone in this game has) is not affected by where they physically are, but takes place in channels, guild chat, group chat --- methods of communication not limited by physical location.  How often do you chat with someone next to you in /say, no matter whether you are a crafter or an adventurer?  Far more likely you're chatting in guild, and in channels.</SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>There's an old saying I tend to repeat quite a bit within my guild that "nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd". <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>I bring this up because one of the largest complaints I hear about Everquest 2 is that our cities don't feel "alive" like cities in other games...especially when compared to cities like World of Warcraft.</FONT><BR><BR>Those players aren't complaining about a lack of chat. They're complaining about a lack of actual players running around. Just being in chat channels isn't enough. (It's a bit like saying you don't need to go out with your friends, because they can talk to you online anytime they want so what's the difference, right?)<BR><BR>In a game like Everquest 2 with a large virtual world, that has quite a bit of instancing, it's hard enough to bump into other players. Just being able to hear the players in a chat channel simply isn't going to replace the actual sight of more PC's where it matters.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I love the way EQ2 does not feel overridden, overcrowded, and "alive" with naked idiots dancing on mailboxes and having to wait 30 mins to <STRONG><U>retrieve </U></STRONG>mail from the mailbox. I like not being 20 players deep, shoulder to shoulder (watch those "birds" perched up there Mr. Druid, please) inside the bank, <U>behind </U>the teller window (not in front). I like not finding 30 people or more sitting in front of the gryphon. It was certainly alive there. FPS-stuttering so.</P> <P>There's space to breathe, to move, to not stutter every 2 steps on the way into the AH. <BR></P> <P>I realize all of the above are personal feelings, and I can certainly understand how someone would want more life around. Or how the game can feel empty sometimes. Too open. Too deserted.</P> <P> </P> <P>I can also understand how having trade centers, crafters all centered around an open area, busy with commerce and chat and selling can make a place feel bustling, and community oriented. I've played games where that existed. Where crafting was vital to the other players: required, respected, and all for the benefit of the entire realm. Good gear meant better rewards for everyone.</P> <P> </P> <P>The game dynamics are different here. It almost feels like crafting is a secondary game. It certainly can be played that way. I have 6 crafters and 4 main adventurers.</P> <P>I don't want to be forced to be outside as a visual sign that the game has life. I'm not a performing artist (unless I can get SP for that). I'm not window dressing.  I'm a fellow player.</P> <P>Bringing "life" to the game is a noble cause. Finding an alternative that doesn't require other people to become the backdrop for someone else's virtual pleasure is perhaps a better way build community.  Especially if you find a way that doesn't minimize <U>their </U>gaming pleasure as well.</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Goldenflight on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<blockquote><hr>Goldenflight wrote:<P>I love the way EQ2 does not feel overridden, overcrowded, and "alive"<hr></blockquote>Excellent for you. It's refreshing to find someone who enjoys the current game. Unfortunately, a great many players do not...and more's the pity for the rest of us.Obviously I'm fighting against the current here, and I respect that, but at the same time, I can completely see the benefits of this change, and feel such benefits outweigh the penalities quite a bit.I do hope something can be done to help optimize and alleviate the lag a bit, and I'm certainly hoping to see even more tradeskilling devices throughout the cities, but at the same time, I'm curious as to how often we'll really (truly and really) see 150+ crafters/adventurers within the same exact zone in either Qeynos or Freeport. It can't be THAT often...and if so, so much the better (again, lag issues aside).For so long, the cities in Everquest 2 have felt stale and almost lifeless to me...a place to rush through as quickly as possible on your way to the next quest, writ, or what have you....Then again..here's my idea to help with that. When a player engages a crafting device, have all other PC models disappear. *POOF* So long as you remain engaged to the device, no other PC's are drawn/rendered at all. You could even have a dark fog envelop the surrounding world for added dramatic effect (make sure sound is dampened appropriately as well).From a roleplaying perspective, consider this to be the effect of your character concentrating on his or her task.

[Blakeavon]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:In a game like Everquest 2 with a large virtual world, that has quite a bit of instancing, it's hard enough to bump into other players. Just being able to hear the players in a chat channel simply isn't going to replace the actual sight of more PC's where it matters.<hr></blockquote>the only problem is that eq2 requires a lot more hardware to pull this off, wow looks better  *giggles* and plays faster even when Ironforge is packed (most times)... we all want what you are talking about in Norrath (hence me playing this and not wow) but with the requirements this game needs to make these changes fun and interactive its just not to happen... it wont make the game better for most part it will just make it unplayable</div>

[xOnaton1]

<div></div>My feelings are that this is far too drastic a change. Your players like options and they don't like it when things are removed from the game or forced on them.I'd say go with a small change first. Keep all the crafting instances as they are and add some devices to the quieter zones like South Freeport and the Elddar Grove. If people like crafting there, they can go there. Any new crafting area has to have the same conveniences that crafters want, otherwise they won't use them. They need fuel, a broker, writ givers and recipe book merchants nearby. Banks have never been close to the crafting zone, but they shouldn't be too far away. Crafting on horseback is pretty silly, so you should be required to dismount to craft, like riding a griffon.That's my feedback from the testing today.Othesus - Dirge - Lucan DLereVaspar - Fury - Lucan DLere<div></div>

[Calie1]

<P><FONT face=Verdana size=4>The one thing that I really like about EQ2 is the fact that if I don't feel like hacking and slashing I have the option of crafting. It's the thing I want to do when I feel like I need to be really productive. Something I can do fast and get quick results at. The reason I can do this, convience. I have everything I need in one place. The problem with the new set up is there is no convience. A lot of running around and getting no where. The ts writs were not only good for players but for their guilds as well. The rush order writs you just put in, will be for naught. In NQ all the time will be wasted before you even get started. Trying to find a table, making sure you have all the necessary components, it will be like Santa (checking your list, then checking it twice just to make sure you have everything), what a waste of time. If I know that I only have s short amount of play time, I can get on and craft. If this change goes into effect as is, that is out of the window. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=4>You saw the results as to how laggy it will be, and that is only on test, can you imagine what will happen on live servers where you have thousands of players if you try to do that. No one will be able to move. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=4>So my suggestion is this, Stop, Take a deep Breath, and lets start over. Keep the ts instances, whittle them down abit,maybe one to two crafting tables for each station, move the other crafting tables to one area outside under a big top tent like building/ market type area, not inside of shops as it is too cramped, have all the conviences of the ts instances in that one place,  remove the npc's that are not needed in that city, they are taking up space and causing unnecessary lag. For example, in QH where the bank is you have all that space and you have merchants lining up along the side of the street, something along those lines would be great. That would give adventures the opportunity to interact with crafters but also allow the crafter some space to craft. But remember convience is the key here. Everything (meaning broker, fuel availability, bank and mail) have to be easily accessible and within close proximity to the ts area. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=4>If you want a good picture of what will happen to tradeskilling, watch the Everfrost ts area for awhile, it gets used, but very rarely. Of the many months that I have played in that zone, the ts area has always been empty with the exception of the one or two times that I have actually seen a player there using it. It is a rarity. Why? Because there are no conviences. </FONT></P>

[Goldenflig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goldenflight wrote: <P>I love the way EQ2 does not feel overridden, overcrowded, and "alive" <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Excellent for you. It's refreshing to find someone who enjoys the current game. Unfortunately, a great many players do not...and more's the pity for the rest of us.<BR></FONT><BR>Obviously I'm fighting against the current here, and I respect that, but at the same time, I can completely see the benefits of this change, and feel such benefits outweigh the penalities quite a bit.<BR><BR>I do hope something can be done to help optimize and alleviate the lag a bit, and I'm certainly hoping to see even more tradeskilling devices throughout the cities, but at the same time, I'm curious as to how often we'll really (truly and really) see 150+ crafters/adventurers within the same exact zone in either Qeynos or Freeport. It can't be THAT often...and if so, so much the better (again, lag issues aside).<BR><BR>For so long, the cities in Everquest 2 have felt stale and almost lifeless to me...a place to rush through as quickly as possible on your way to the next quest, writ, or what have you.<BR><BR>...<BR><BR>Then again..here's my idea to help with that. <BR><BR>When a player engages a crafting device, have all other PC models disappear. *POOF* So long as you remain engaged to the device, no other PC's are drawn/rendered at all. You could even have a dark fog envelop the surrounding world for added dramatic effect (make sure sound is dampened appropriately as well).<BR><BR>From a roleplaying perspective, consider this to be the effect of your character concentrating on his or her task.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I understand and empathize. </P> <P>I'm curious why this has to be fixed with changes to crafters.</P> <P>Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the few that actually enjoys crafting outside. I don't want others to disappear in a fog. That means I don't see life going on around me either. </P> <P>I believe the current implementation detracts rather than adds.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>And I'm trying to understand why, it feels to me, that  the solution to "lack of life in the city" (IF that the real issue being addressed) seems to be a "shoot from the hip" response (move crafters outdoors).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff>"Any intuitive change to a complex system will inevitably leave that system worse off." </FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P><p>Message Edited by Goldenflight on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:27 PM</span>

[ZeyGnome]

<P>So, Kendricke, how do you feel about them removing the guild requirements from the tradeskill stations and lowering their cost so that it is accessable to everyone?</P> <P>Surely you can't be again't that, because then the cities would still be 'alive' with people who want to be there, and those who don't will be crafting in their houses.</P> <P>BTW, didn't catch you during the test, did you happen to stop by to watch the fiasco?</P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<blockquote><hr>ZeyGnome wrote:<P>So, Kendricke, how do you feel about them removing the guild requirements from the tradeskill stations and lowering their cost so that it is accessable to everyone?</P><P>Surely you can't be again't that, because then the cities would still be 'alive' with people who want to be there, and those who don't will be crafting in their houses.</P><P>BTW, didn't catch you during the test, did you happen to stop by to watch the fiasco?</P><P> </P><hr></blockquote>I think you're trying to compare apples and wheelbarrows with the strawman you've built there, and I'm not taking the bait. Good try, though.BTW, I was there...but not on my primary ("Kendricke" was on Guk witnessing a guild event put on by one of our newer members, but I was on Test with a secondary account at the same time).

[Rijacki]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:Obviously I'm fighting against the current here, and I respect that, but at the same time, I can completely see the benefits of this change, and feel such benefits outweigh the penalities quite a bit.I do hope something can be done to help optimize and alleviate the lag a bit, and I'm certainly hoping to see even more tradeskilling devices throughout the cities, but at the same time, I'm curious as to how often we'll really (truly and really) see 150+ crafters/adventurers within the same exact zone in either Qeynos or Freeport. It can't be THAT often...and if so, so much the better (again, lag issues aside).For so long, the cities in Everquest 2 have felt stale and almost lifeless to me...a place to rush through as quickly as possible on your way to the next quest, writ, or what have you....Then again..here's my idea to help with that. When a player engages a crafting device, have all other PC models disappear. *POOF* So long as you remain engaged to the device, no other PC's are drawn/rendered at all. You could even have a dark fog envelop the surrounding world for added dramatic effect (make sure sound is dampened appropriately as well).From a roleplaying perspective, consider this to be the effect of your character concentrating on his or her task.<hr></blockquote>The penalties would only be felt by those who choose to make tradeskilling a significant part of their game play and thus.. since it has already been amply demonstated they dont matter to the devs, the "benefits" do outwiegh the penalties.  They'll eliminate the lag potential by more and more crafting oriented players either giving up crafting or leaving the game.  Again, "benefits" outwiegh the penalties since less and less of the very very meager development time now allotted to tradeskilling will be required since it will "service" fewer and fewer players. As for never having 150+ crafters at one time... I have been in crowded tradeskill instances recently, since writs were reimplemented.  Three or my four active crafting characters do not have access to in-home tradeskill stations.  Several times, especially in peak hours (when I chose to tradeskill instead of adventure), there were a dozen people in just the -room- of the tradeskill instance I was in.  There were over a couple dozen in the whole instance and I wasn't in the most active instance intentionally.. but.. 24x6 = 144.  So, it's entirely impossible to have over 100 crafters all crafting at the same time, per city?  No, it isn't.  Frankly, Guk isn't as crowded as Antonia Bayle (or even some of the other servers) where 24 in the crafting instance wasn't uncommon for off-peak playtime while there were no writs.  Plus, it won't be just and only crafters in the zone.  North Qeynos, for example, has a broker and bank and is also where you have to turn in collection quests.  It is not unusual to find that broker pretty crowded with overflow from other places (like the harbour) or people looking for items to fill out their collection quests. The cities have no draw for adventurers, but you're not advocating requiring them to spend time there in lagfest that inhibits gameplay in order to provide a show for those passing through. As for your idea of the cloud around the crafter.. isn't that 100% contra to the stated dev purpose of 'getting crafters out of the dungeons and into the community at large'?  Instead you'd like to isolate them even from other crafters as well but have them "on show" for passers by. How much is that doggie in the window.. arf arf arf. There are much better ways to accomplish the "community effect" and it has very little to do with putting crafters on display while they craft.. or attempt to craft. BTW, the final straw as the reason Rijacki moved from Baubleshire (where she had lived since she got to Qeynos on day of release) was when they closed the scholar instance and she was required to go craft on the hill above the halfling holes (where it was A LOT more crowded in the instance).  She bought her own chemistry table very soon after.. or rather Ohelia bought it for her.  It's not to be unsocial, it's to be able to craft without having to trip over anyone else or deal with a lot of really annoying spam from other people.  I craft to relax.  If the current situation was pushed to Live as is, it would not be relaxing in the slightest and I will likely not craft any more on my other characters unless I could manage to obtain crafting stations for them. One single solitary clarification.  "how much is that doggie" refers to how the crafter would be put on display, it is not a comment about the poster to whom I was responding.  Crafters on parade for the benefit of... like puppies in a window that people can stop and watch in the mall (but not interact with, mind you, just there for.. looks).<div></div><p>Message Edited by Rijacki on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:40 PM</span>

[bewhatev]

<P>A couple of observations and a suggestion based on what I observed during today's testing:</P> <P>The crafting aspect of this game has many aspects.  A change was prototyped and tried out today which made positive changes a couple of aspects, but accidentally changed several more in a very negative way.   Let me describe this concretely, then abstractly, and then some thoughts on how this kind of complexity has been managed by developers in other industries.</P> <P>Concretely:</P> <P>Crafting in this game, beyond basic leveling, hinges on a skilled crafter being able to deliver pristines at a consistent rate (we all strive for 100%, but it's more important that it be predictable and consistent) off of rare (expensive) components.  Delivering those pristines depends on consistently being able to not just react to events but also push progress or durability when events aren't going on.  This means an environment free of server lag, network lag, and client lag.</P> <P>Free of server lag means that the server isn't updating "n" people around me about the exact activites of all "n" of us, for n times n work, for nontrivial n.  </P> <P>Free of network lag ties not only to how much the server has to send (see n*n above), but also to avoiding packet drops that lock up the client for a whole TCP timeout before it starts responding again.</P> <P>Free of client lag means the client isn't having to render so many polygons -- regardless of whether the polygons are scenery, objects, NPCs, or players -- that FPS goes to or below 1 digit due to texture cache thrashing, CPU overload, graphics card overload, or just plain memory swapping to disk.</P> <P>The current crafting instances are very carefully designed to spread people out and minimize all of these forms of lag, but especially client lag for someone whose machine is closer to the minimum than mine is.</P> <P>I watched in DAoC as the devs dreamed of epic battles, and redesigned RvR to put 200 players together in a battle around a keep rather than spread out in the frontier as they had been before.  Good vision.  No reality.  The server couldn't handle 200*200, the server's network connection couldn't handle 200*200, a player's network connection couldn't handle the updates on 200 nearby players, and no one I knew had a computer that could actually render anything useful with that many polygons in sight.  Kind of like my initial experience walking into Queynos Harbor, or into the furniture store in NQ,  but at least for QH and NQ I could just buy a new graphics card and turn down my settings.</P> <P>Abstractly:</P> <P>Crafting has a design in this game that leads to a set of needs/expectations by the crafters.  They won't be things people complain about, or even mention, until some change breaks them.  In industry as a whole I've heard these called "unstated needs".  For example:</P> <P>Reasonably quick movement between broker, wholesaler, crafting table (ever hear of the "triangle" of sink, refrigerator, stove in kitchen design?).  Also reasonable access to trainer, writ giver, and bank as well.</P> <P>Space to get to all of the above.  Ever walk into a WoW auction house at peak hours, back when there was one per realm?  Doesn't matter if it's a short walk if you can't target the desired object/npc on the first try, or can't get through the door because it's blocked by a horse's hind end.</P> <P>Few enough polygons in sight that even a modest client doesn't lag during a crafting operation, wasting a rare.</P> <P>Proximity of different table types, for crafters who need to use more than one (a lot less of this since June).</P> <P>There are probably more, but you get the idea.  These are expectations, they're delivered by the game today, and no one will ask for them unless they threaten to go away.</P> <P>Moving to an even more abstract place:</P> <P>There are tools in the industry to manage complexity like this.  Particularly complexity where there are customer goals which are in direct conflict with each other and have to be traded off.  (Example: given the engine this game is built on, minimize both the frequency with which you have to zone and how long it takes.  The engine pre loads every last player/npc/object in the entire zone you're going to as part of zoning.  That means with fewer, larger zones, zoning will take forever, but chopping the map up into many small zones to minimize load time means, well, zoning more often.  A tradeoff for the devs results.  A mature team will understand that they are making such a tradeoff and make it deliberately, not as an accident while thinking of other aspects of the design.)</P> <P>Fifteen years ago I was trained in a methodology for keeping track of customer desires, technical aspects of a design in support of those features, and making tradeoffs where customer desires conflicted with each other.  Came out of the Japanese auto industry, of all places.  Roughly speaking, you make a pretty detailed (and hierarchical) list of customer desires, then a list of the technical solutions you propose with each tied to one or more customer desires, then identify all of the places where these technical solutions inherently trade off against each other (or in the case of a car, against cost) and explicitly noting those interactions, so you can sort them out one by one.  As a discipline, it forces you to start with a detailed understanding of the customer's stated (Kano model: must, want, delight) and unstated desires.</P> <P>What I saw today was a really good job of taking a new customer desire (get the crafters out of the basements and into the community) tinged with a little immersion (put the various tables in establishments where they logically fit), done without thinking about some other aspects (access, horses' rear ends in the way, number of crafters, distances both in the triangle and to the other three resources, server lag, network lag, client lag, and so on).  If the systematic understanding of needs were there, the solution we saw today would have been discarded in light of them and another approach more encompassing of a complete set of customer needs chosen before all the work of implementing (or at least prototyping) was done.  </P> <P>Just a suggestion...</P> <P> </P>

[Prrasha]

Don't feel like a giant copy-paste, so my thoughts are <a href=http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=64977#M64977 target=_blank>over here in the original Glendral thread.</a>As for straw men, Kendricke... making the game "look full" isn't the Dev's purpose in this change.If you want folks to see a lot of people standing around, get rid of the adventuring instances. All contested raids! Put the T7 raid content in Antonica, so the newbies can see how full EQ2 is! I mean, there's several times more adventurers than crafters, so think how much better this would be for your goal!Silly, no? It won't work for crafters, and it won't work for adventurers.

[Kendricke]

<blockquote><hr>Pelarski wrote:Don't feel like a giant copy-paste, so my thoughts are <a href=http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=64977#M64977 target=_blank>over here in the original Glendral thread.</a>As for straw men, Kendricke... making the game "look full" isn't the Dev's purpose in this change.If you want folks to see a lot of people standing around, get rid of the adventuring instances. All contested raids! Put the T7 raid content in Antonica, so the newbies can see how full EQ2 is! I mean, there's several times more adventurers than crafters, so think how much better this would be for your goal!Silly, no? It won't work for crafters, and it won't work for adventurers.<hr></blockquote>That's not what I said either. Again, I realize I'm swimming against the current here, but that's no reason to put words in my mouth.Removing adventuring instances wouldn't put players back in the cities...unless the cities themselves start harboring raid targets suddenly. Removing tradeskill instances and placing the tradeskill devices in the city does put players back in the cities.Again, I'm not saying this is or is not the developer intent - only that it's one possible intention. You can all make me a scapegoat on this if it makes you feel better. By all means, tell me how I want to remove guild rewards and adventuring instances and turn all tradeskillers into little trained organ grinding puppies in display windows if it makes you feel better. Wrap all the emotion into your arguments about developers hating tradeskillers and considering them second class citizens all you want, everyone.It doesn't mean that's anything close to what I actually said, though.I was there. I saw the lag. I saw placement problems. I saw the complaints. I saw the discussions. I also see promise with the idea. I see reasons for doing it. I see potential. I'm trying to get creative and come up with suggestions that work with the possibility, not work against it. Maybe it's how I was brought up, or perhaps what I do for a living, but I just don't see how an immediate negative outlook solves anything.I'm just trying to be part of the solution here, not the problem. That's all. You may not like my suggestions, but don't take it out on me in the process.<p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:43 PM</span>

[Goldenflig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pelarski wrote:<BR>Don't feel like a giant copy-paste, so my thoughts are <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=64977#M64977" target=_blank>over here in the original Glendral thread.</A><BR><BR>As for straw men, Kendricke... making the game "look full" isn't the Dev's purpose in this change.<BR><BR>If you want folks to see a lot of people standing around, get rid of the adventuring instances. All contested raids! Put the T7 raid content in Antonica, so the newbies can see how full EQ2 is! I mean, there's several times more adventurers than crafters, so think how much better this would be for your goal!<BR><BR>Silly, no? It won't work for crafters, and it won't work for adventurers.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>That's not what I said either. Again, I realize I'm swimming against the current here, but that's no reason to put words in my mouth.<BR><BR>Removing adventuring instances wouldn't put players back in the cities...unless the cities themselves start harboring raid targets suddenly. Removing tradeskill instances and placing the tradeskill devices in the city does put players back in the cities.<BR><BR>Again, I'm not saying this is or is not the developer intent - only that it's one possible intention. You can all make me a scapegoat on this if it makes you feel better. By all means, tell me how I want to remove guild rewards and adventuring instances and turn all tradeskillers into little trained organ grinding puppies in display windows if it makes you feel better. Wrap all the emotion into your arguments about developers hating tradeskillers and considering them second class citizens all you want, everyone.<BR><BR>It doesn't mean that's anything close to what I actually said, though.<BR><BR>I was there. I saw the lag. I saw placement problems. I saw the complaints. I saw the discussions. <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>I also see promise with the idea. I see reasons for doing it. I see potential. </FONT><BR><BR>I'm trying to get creative and come up with suggestions that work with the possibility, not work against it. Maybe it's how I was brought up, or perhaps what I do for a living, but I just don't see how an immediate negative outlook solves anything.<BR><BR>I'm just trying to be part of the solution here, not the problem. That's all. You may not like my suggestions, but don't take it out on me in the process. <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>09-25-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:43 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I think there is potential as well. See my previous post (this thread) and others on this forum.  </P> <P>From my perspective, there are 2 issues here: one is the implementation as it stood during stress test tonight. <FONT color=#33ccff>It was obvious there were problems and I certainly appreciate Glendral quickly sizing the situation and seizing the opportunity to ask about trade-offs. In any business, there are trade-off decisions to be made; seems that he was trying to get a feel from the testers where those boundaries were.</FONT></P> <P>The other issue, which cannot be addressed in this thread, nor should it, is the interdependency of adventurers and crafters (or lack thereof) and how that contributes/detracts to/from overall gameplay for both, including, but not limited to:</P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>"The crafters are their own community, but separated from the adventurers.  We want to try and make it one big community."</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></STRONG> </P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>In other words: simply put:  one big community has nothing to do with moving crafters out of instances for</FONT> appearance of a larger community </FONT></STRONG>and more to do with game design. </P> <P> </P> <P>That game design is a set of decisions that led to the current state "requiring" a perceived need to "try and make it one big community" (e.g. move crafters). Those design decisions  are complex.  Usually made one step at a time (via trade-offs, sometimes, without anticipating/understanding consequences).  Including the results from the last crafting overhaul in June. </P> <P>Again: simply put: moving crafters does not have anything to do making a big community. Designing crafting to be an inherent, required part of the game is.</P> <P>Either accept the fact that crafting needs to be better integrated (hence integrating crafters), or allow a subset of playstyle (crafting) without trying to force the community together. </P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>/returns thread to feedback on tonights playtest</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><BR> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Goldenflight on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:18 PM</span>

[Prrasha]

Aye, I did lay it on a bit thick.Still, "potential"? I think the greater potential was spelled out by Rijacki upthread... lag makes the city zones unusable until enough crafters quit using them (either by moving into their houses, stopping crafting, or quitting the game), then you have depopulated city zones and no crafters, rather than just depopulated city zones. The law of unintended consequences can be harsh.I kinda like the idea of city tradeskill stations, but only for "/tell prrasha can you make me an imbued vanadium band of strength?", since it'll save me zoning twice... it's a giant step backwards for actual level grinding (not an issue of mine since all my tradeskillers are 70th), and certainly not for writs. If there aren't enough low-lag places for serious crafting, crafting will die. Think anyone would be adventuring if 10-second lag spikes every minute or three were unavoidable in every zone with mobs to kill?

[Rijacki]

<div><blockquote><hr>Goldenflight wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div><p>Again: simply put: moving crafters does not have anything to do making a big community. Designing crafting to be an inherent, required part of the game is.</p> <p>Either accept the fact that crafting needs to be better integrated (hence integrating crafters), or allow a subset of playstyle (crafting) without trying to force the community together. </p><hr></blockquote>Crafting doesn't even need to be a "required" part of the game but simply an encouraged part.Having goods which adventurers want, is one part of that, yes.Having an HQ which requires high level crafting as well as high level adventuring doesn't because all it encourages is grinding (and often dumping) in order to get the goa, not any desire to be a part of the community with that craft (whether the crafting community or the wider encompassing community).  Moving the crafters to have them on display while adventurers pass through (name one reason adventurers would have to spend time in the cities with crafting there that isn't already a reason...) doesn't do it either.Having engaging things for crafters to do that use ONLY crafting skills (and actually use crafting and not just "get me these items to make into something") and not adventuring would encourage crafting and might even pull some adventurers into that community which would in turn bring the two halves of the community closer together.I realise the devs are going to do away with the village/hood instances no matter what.  It's a given, I accept that.  Wanting to have tradeskillers on display, though, to make things seem more populated in order to give adventurers (or maybe new players) a better impression is rather condescending to the tradeskillers and places them in a 2nd class or even pet category without actually doing anything positive for them.  There are no benefits to tradeskillers and many detriments (mostly in terms of lag and crowding crafting stations), but that doesn't matter since there would be a perceived benefit to adventurers and that's what matters. </div>

[Ronin SpoilSpot]

It seems the major problem with this change is that:<ul><li>1. The players don't want it, and</li><li>2. the players don't need it.</li></ul>I'm all for devs having visions, but this seems a somewhat ham-fisted way of enforcing a vision. There's the carrot approach and the stick approach, and this is definitly stick. People are reacting as could be expected.There appears to be no advantage for the crafters (ok, maybe getting a bank in the same zone as the crafting station), and there is no advantage to adventurers seeing crafters craft. Channels, tells and /who already covers all the needs.Attention from adventurers isn't really desired while you craft, and unless adventurers are also somehow forced to hang out in city zones, you'll see crafters in the least frequented zones.So, I dare you, devs, keep tradeskill instances in the game, and try to make outdoor crafting attractive enough that people will <b>choose</b> it. If you can't do that, I guess it's a given that the alterantive we are now left with is inferior. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />/RS<p>Message Edited by Ronin SpoilSpot on <span class=date_text>09-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:32 PM</span>

[Dessellion4]

<P>When asked WHY all these proposed changes, Glendral's response was: <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG> "We really just want to try and make crafting more of the community, rather than the hidden thing in the basement" </STRONG></FONT>and<FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG> "The crafters are their own community, but separated from the adventurers.  We want to try and make it one big community."</STRONG></FONT></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>OK lets take this to its logical conclusion.  You want everybody playing together like one big happy family?  Then take those raiders out of their raiding instances.  They spend far too much time separated from the rest of the adventuring community for their own good.  I want to be able to watch them in action, to see why they became such heroes.  They've become their own community separated from other adventurers and tradeskillers.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>In fact remove all instances from the game.  All they do is prevent the sense of community you so obviously value.</FONT></STRONG></P>

[Jackula]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><b>Where did all my elbow room go?</b>The forge area in NQ is the only work area I used where I felt like I had a comfortable working space.  If you want crafting stations in buildings to be used you need to reduce physical clutter, make sure all movement pathways can accomodate traffic flow and large character models, and utilize larger rooms instead of "walk in closets".<b>Amenities?</b>If they aren't equal in each zone, one will be more prone to being neglected and the other more prone to crowding.  A centralized hub of essential services (broker, banker, mailbox) and close by fuel vendors and writ givers  would make crafting out of instances more attractive.  You catch more flies with honey.  Crafting outside of the instances is much more inconvenient comparitively.<b>Lag</b> <b>& Distractions</b>I don't normally have lag issues while crafting.  I did tonight, both when we were all together in NQ and again when we split into two groups and I was in SQ.  That's not good. The crowding didn't help, or the mounts or pets or fireworks! (but they did help simulate lag on a busy day on a busy sever).  Along with all the other suggestions to this, please also consider adding in an /ignore NPCname option... or let me kill them.<b>Writs</b>I love doing timed writs currently.  They help me level, reduce the amount of unwanted goods flooding the market, I can earn status points and a small profit if I succeed, and I can contribute to my guild.  Doing these on test is alot unfriendlier.<b>Final thoughts</b>If only 1 Qeynos and 1 Freeport faction instance are kept, expect that place to be extremely crowded if it is easier to use than non-instanced areas.  Why is staring at a new wall in a more cramped location that is more inconvenient to me considered good for me and "getting me out of a dungeon"?  Would I like a change of scenery from time to time?  Yes.  Would I like not having to zone to get to a mailbox and banker?  Yes.  If the final result is more inconvenient to use than what I currently have access to will I be happy for the change?  No.Congrats on proposing changes drastic enough to actually get me to make a character on test.  Solveig Ulricsdottir enjoyed her time there in spite of issues.  Thanks to all who came to test, Dev(s?), crafters and lag simulators alike.  Special thanks to those that play on Test regularly.  I commend you for the extra effort involved, and thank you for bearing with our "invasion".<div></div><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by countjackula on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:23 AM</span>

[Kordran]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR>Don't get upset with me for introducing a differing perspective. I'm simply pointing out that the idea that "crafters are social...in chat channels" isn't addressing the issue.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What "issue" are you trying to address? Simply to make the cities look more active? I'll support that. As soon as they remove all of the dungeons in the game and scatter the mobs around the zones. No more Blackburrow, Stormhold, Ruins of Varsoon, Runny Eye... just jump 'em all in the overland zones. Oh, and get rid of all instanced content. It goes overland too. You see, I want to see the adventuring zones feel more "alive" to me, and to accomplish that, I need you all running around out in the open so I can see you. No being squirreled away crawling in some dungeon or running through instances. No, no. I need to see you, live and in person, fighting those mobs in order to validate my own personal idea of what my gaming experience should be.</P> <P>So, get out there and start promoting this wonderful idea. Force those adventurers out of the dungeons and instances, so that we can all have a more social gaming experience today!</P> <P>I mean, if it's good enough for the crafters, should be good enough for you, no?<BR></P>

[Dessellion4]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR>I'm trying to get creative and come up with suggestions that work with the possibility, not work against it. Maybe it's how I was brought up, or perhaps what I do for a living, but I just don't see how an immediate negative outlook solves anything.<BR><BR>I'm just trying to be part of the solution here, not the problem. That's all. You may not like my suggestions, but don't take it out on me in the process. <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>09-25-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:43 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Kendricke, what irritates here is your trusting faith in the idea that there was a problem that needs a solution.   You state that you want to be part of the solution not the problem.  What exactly is this problem that requires such a solution?  Unless I've been wandering around Norrath with my eyes shut I seem to have completely missed it.  Where on these forums has anyone ever called for the abolition of crafting in the villages?  Where are the threads bemoaning the lack of community caused specifically by crafters toiling away in their subterranean holes?  Where is the consultation with the expert crafting community?  It really makes me sick that more and more people come out with this claptrap of " don't criticise, let's be part of the solution, not the problem".  Wrong, if the proposal is as daft as this one is, then making any sort of compromise means giving some sort of credence to it.</P> <P>The first sniff regarding these changes was not a suggestion that devs were considering making changes.  It was the update note to Test saying these changes are coming, how wonderful for everybody, welcome them with open arms.  95% of the comments on these forums show  what the crafting community think of the changes.  But still the devs fail to say anything to address our fears and give their reasons (I don't count the playtest - as usual those of us in Europe were unable to take part).</P> <P>I too see some promise in <U>some</U> of the ideas.  But I don't appreciate the way they've been presented to us.  And those of us being "negative" as you put it are doing so because, even though SOE seem to have gone out of their way to make crafters second-class citizens, we've still been enjoying crafting. </P> <P> <BR></P>

[Writer Cal]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <UL> <LI>Say in Elddar Grove, where there aren't really any buildings of any type of merchants, would you want to see a little tradeskill area set up, rather than trying to fit them into the buildings like they are now.  These would be in adddition to anything else, including instances or the like?</LI></UL> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, I was thinking this could be cool for EG, NQ, and SQ.  I kind of mentioned something like it in one of the other threads, but I was looking at the area outside the Ironforge Exchange where the writ givers are now on Test and thought, "Hey, you know, this huge open area here would be a great spot for an open crafting market."  Set up some stations under canopies so it doesn't rain on our work, maybe give the writ givers, crafting trainer, and fuel vendors some counters to stand behind under their own tents so they don't look quite so much like they're standing around aimlessly, and it could work pretty well.  It would remove the issue of certain classes (*cough* carpenters *cough*) having to run all over hell and creation to do their writs, and it wouldn't have to look like a bunch of out of place crafting stations that don't fit in.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR>   <UL> <LI>Would you rather see 1 of each type of station in a village, or each village be a specific one (type of station) if we added them to the villages/hoods ?  </LI></UL> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd prefer one of each type in a village.  If only one kind of station was in each village, this would be very unfair for classes that use more than one kind of station.<BR><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <UL> <LI>if we had one of each type (or more) of crafting station in villages/hoods (not in instances) plus banker/broker/etc., would just the main tradeskill instances (Ironforges/Coalition) be enough? <BR></LI></UL> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not sure if this question meant that the ones in the city zones would go away.  If so, I'd be pretty bummed.  But as for the part about the two main instances being enough if these other things were added, then yes, I feel that would be enough.</P> <P>I actually very much like being able to craft in the city zones.  I just want multiple options available, mostly for the sake of all my guildies who love to craft but can't afford top end computers to combat the lag.  Giving us options seems to be key here.  If we have options, I don't see a problem with it at all.  I do like the concept of getting us out there.  I've been having a blast crafting in NQ on Test (excluding the lag when the population got over 50 people during the play test.)  I love the change of scenery, and as long as the version that goes live has various kinds of options for different people, I think this could be a very nice change.</P> <P>PS - If the city zone setup stays generally as is, please review which merchants sell which fuels and make sure people can find what they need near their crafting stations.  It's so not cool to finally find your station and then not find the fuel you need on any of the nearby merchants.</P>

[Cybrdroyd]

<DIV>Since my main is from Freeport, I made a toon in freeport and went and checked out crafting in freeport shortly before test time.  First, I did not know where the new crafting areas were.  After a half hour of walking around, I finally found someone to show me where everything was in east freeport.  Ok, so here I am, first I need to run around and make sure I know where everything is.  Writ givers, check, fuel suppliers, check, broker, check, banker, check, mailbox, check. OK.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First observation.  Less convenient than the TS instance in the village.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I decide to start the choosing a profession quest to really put the new TS stuff through the paces.  First thing to make, frog legs.  Ok, where is the stove?  Oh, its down the hill in the tavern by the docks, and the fuel supplier is the provisioner. Well, why is there a separate fuel supplier? Oh and I never did find the vendor that sells the recipe books. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2nd observation.  I had to go to a completely different vendor to buy fuels, and I did not locate the vendor that sells recipe books.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My first reaction to this new crafting situation.  What a pain in the [Removed for Content] this is gonna be.  Also, I didnt notice anyone walking by attempting to strike up a conversation with me as I crafted (what little time I actually spent crafting after running around trying to locate everything).  I also didn't notice anything particularly interesting about watching my toon or any other toon crafting.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didn't show up for the actual test because I knew it would be a lag-fest anyway.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like going to my TS instance in beggar's court.  It's home for me.  Its familiar to me.  I know where everything is, please don't screw it up.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imagine what it will be like when cloaks come out, and you have 40 or 50 or more cloaked individuals trying to craft in the lag infested city zones like queynos harbor or east freeport.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never heard a valid reason why SOE created the NGE and CU in SWG, and I have yet to hear or read a valid or satisfactory reason why SOE wants to do away with TS instances when it's obvious that is something crafters do like.  After months of NGE and CU we learn that it was a problem for the devs to balance out so many different classes.  It had nothing to do with what the players wanted, but it had everything to do with SOE being able to do their jobs as devs.  I believe this change has nothing at all to do with player enjoyment or player experience whatsoever, and it has everything to do with making SOE's workload lighter and more cost effective.  Am I right?  Why don't you guys just admit it.  It's all about the OT you are spending on your dev team that you wish to alleviate, isn't it?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, it would be a far better use of the devs time to improve the quality of the items we craft and make them as good or better than dropped items.  Also, if SOE really gave a crap about community, they would fix the chairs and make taverns a fun place to socialize in, and make bard-types able to perform in said establishments and provisioners could peddle their wares behind the bar.  Both of these activities are still happening in SWG, a much older and less popular game, yet it feels more alive because of their cantinas.  THAT is what you should be working on and stop trying to fix whats not broken.</DIV>

[Findara]

<div></div>I cant wait to gank people trying to craft if they put stations in TS and CL.But as a positive I really think the idea of outside crafting is a good one,  But put the crafting areas near the resources.  Horizons did this and I haev never loved a tradeskill game more than that.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Findarato on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:34 AM</span>

[MrWolfie]

<P>Attractive cities?<BR>Then why not fix the roaming guards who ALWAYS have their swords drawn.<BR>Why not remove the EPIC guards that no-one engages, and if anyone did, would only cause lag for the rest of us.</P> <P>Making crafters more a part of the community?<BR>Why don't mobs drop items that require crafting into the best equipment, rather than just dropping the equipment ready to use. As far as I can tell, removal of the TS instances is only going to drive a bigger wedge between adventurers and crafters, as all the crafters I know will retire to their homes and inn-rooms to craft in peace.</P> <P>Moving crafters out of the dungeons?<BR>And into tiny, cramped buildings in lag-infested zones. Everytime lag costs me a rare, I'll be petitioning for reimbursal.</P> <P>Many players complain the cities "aren't alive enough"?<BR>Not this player and, it seems, not any other poster on this forum.</P> <P>If improvement for crafters was the true intent of the devs, then why has it been executed in the manner of someone who doesn't want to make the changes. It seems like even the devs know this is a BAD idea and are desperately trying to find ways around removing the TS instances, and sugar-coating it with spin doctoring. </P> <P>Tell us the TRUTH, Glendral. Lay it on the line and let's move on constructively.</P> <P> </P> <P>For my part, constructively: the coalition (WF) and ironforge (NQ) must stay intact, if all other TS instances are to go then we all need to be able to purchase our own crafting stations (which I already have, but I'm aware that many do not), scrap the brokers and make buying and selling direct from our homes, and give everyone a writ-giver, a fuel merchant and recipe vendor to put in their homes (personally, I'd allow the purchase of a go-for, who would be some street urchin, to run errands for busy crafters. Which would give immediate access to writs, fuel and recipe books from the home).</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Seffrid]

<DIV> <DIV>I found the Playtest a lagfest, and all my worst fears proved well-founded (since Friday generally, in fact, not just during the Playtest) in that many crafters were on horseback or carpets, which only added to the overcrowding and loss of immersion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm thinking that the logic behind these changes is based around a few complaints in the past about the TS instances and the decision to make a different system of immersive crafting within the city itself under the expansion. The freeing up of servers for the expansion zones resulting from the closure of the TS instances is probably a fortunate by-product, and not in itself the reason behind the changes. The official explanation that the devs want the crafters and adventurers to be a single community sits oddly with the original decision in beta to lock TS instances to non-crafters. As a customer I used to enjoy visiting my crafter and chatting while he worked, but I wouldn't now run around a laggy city to do that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem with the reasoning behind the changes, if I'm correct, and apart from the lag that will assuredly affect the expansion city as it does Freeport and Qeynos, is that the Kelethin buildings will have been designed with the placing of tradeskill stations in mind, whereas in the existing cities it is transparently obvious that the stations have been crammed into buildings already full of furniture, paintings, and NPCs. Frankly the buildings now look a mess, and seeing a line of tradeskill NPCs standing by the side of the road in SQ with no obvious reason to be there ruins any sense of immersion for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The key to any problem is that the solution may involve compromise, and that is true here. If the existing village TS instances can be kept open for those who prefer them or want to craft in the villages, then that will  spread the load in the cities where less equipment will be needed. That means that fewer stations can be better placed with less lag resulting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thus the absolute key to all of this is retaining the village TS instances. Do that, and you buy yourself time to sort out the teething troubles with placing tradeskill stations in the city zones - although I'm not convinced personally that they will ever deal effectively enough with the lag problem for crafting in city zones to be remotely viable. If they haven't fixed the lag after 2 years without any reason for most people to visit cities, I don't see much chance of them suddenly producing a solution when more people are aggravating the problem by being drawn into the cities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In its present form, the overall TS change is a disaster which surely cannot be transferred to Live. Keep the village TS instances open (preferably with the Qeynos doors removed and all recipe merchants moved inside), and then take the necessary time to provide a limited tradeskill setup in the city zones but on a much neater and more rational basis than currently on Test. Only do that, however, if you are confident that the lag can be eliminated without everyone having to play in EGA graphics.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Seffrid on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:31 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

Problem: Lack of space.Suggested solution(s): Remove or rearrange some of the old items from buildings where tradeskill devices have been placed to free up space inside. Spread out devices to more areas. Problem: Not enough devices.Suggested solution(s): Create more devices in more areas throughout the cities and villages. Problem: Lag is caused by too many players in field of vision.Suggested solution(s): Have game engine alter client load when tradeskilling device is engaged. Cut the view down to X feet and darken/dampen surrounding area. X can be relatively small or large, or even adjusted in options by individual players for maximum choice/different PC systems.<p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:49 AM</span>

[Maroger]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Kendricke wrote:</P> <P>Problem: Lack of space. Suggested solution(s): Remove or rearrange some of the old items from buildings where tradeskill devices have been placed to free up space inside. Spread out devices to more areas. Problem: Not enough devices. Suggested solution(s): Create more devices in more areas throughout the cities and villages. Problem: Lag is caused by too many players in field of vision. Suggested solution(s): Have game engine alter client load when tradeskilling device is engaged. Cut the view down to X feet and darken/dampen surrounding area. X can be relatively small or large, or even adjusted in options by individual players for maximum choice/different PC systems.</P> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>09-26-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:49 AM</SPAN></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Kendricke -- you are not a designer or a developer. Why do you come to just shill for them. This is a problem for crafters -- it has nothing to do with adventurers so why do you insist on inserting yourself into the discussion.</P> <P>No matter what the developers propose I have never known you to think they have a bad idea. You weren't around BEFORE the test and only show up now when it looks like their idea will fail unless they just ram it through and to hell with player opinion. I realize that is how you operate.</P> <P>Did you attend the test last night?</P> <P>You wouldn't like it if there was proposal to remove things from guild and make more status items available to unguilded or reduce the price of status items. You would be out front loudly shouting and defending guilds and their importance and powers.</P> <P>Many crafter do not want to interact with adventurers when we are crafting, so we have expressed our opinion, and you want to point out flaws in our thought. How about WE LIKE INSTANCES!! You step all over us when we want a change to adventuring -- and heavens know it could stand changes and removal of power and influence from guilds.</P> <P>Why do crafter have to bear the bulk of changes -- how about some changes that adventuers don't like for  a change!!</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Kendricke wrote:</P> <P>I bring this up because one of the largest complaints I hear about Everquest 2 is that our cities don't feel "alive" like cities in other games...especially when compared to cities like World of Warcraft.</P> <P>Those players aren't complaining about a lack of chat. They're complaining about a lack of actual players running around. Just being in chat channels isn't enough. (It's a bit like saying you don't need to go out with your friends, because they can talk to you online anytime they want so what's the difference, right?)</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There are plenty of people running around in West Freeport and newbie zones. What do you want -- people standing on top of one another? Also in WoW there are a lot more players per server than in EQ2 so you get to queue up to log on -- is that what you want? Oh and yes and by the way -- a lot of the starter cities are empty on WoW to--I am not sure what you are judging  it by  - the 2 main cities where they have the auctions?</P> <P>There is no equivalent to PoK on EQ2 nor should there be -- unless they just rebuild it which I doubt. Pok was a dreadful zone, overcrowded and laggy. I hated it!</P> <P>Trying to artificially force players to go to zones they don't want to go to, or to force socialization on them is a good way to get them to quit the game. </P><p>Message Edited by Maroger on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:13 AM</span>

[msheaf]

Kendricke you are saying that by keeping the villiage TS no one will use the city stations. I have to disagree here. I think people that live in the cities will use these because then they will not have to zone to a villiage and then zone to a TS area (depeding on the computer that can be a lot of time saved). To make this work they need all services in each city (e.x. a bank in SQ). Though I still don't think people will really notice the crafters if they leave the stations where they are now as no one ever goes into those buildings unless they a quest there (except where the broker is and having a broker so close to TS stations may cause serious lag problems of their own). <div></div>

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> msheaf1 wrote:<BR>Kendricke you are saying that by keeping the villiage TS no one will use the city stations. I have to disagree here. I think people that live in the cities will use these because then they will not have to zone to a villiage and then zone to a TS area (depeding on the computer that can be a lot of time saved). To make this work they need all services in each city (e.x. a bank in SQ). Though I still don't think people will really notice the crafters if they leave the stations where they are now as no one ever goes into those buildings unless they a quest there (except where the broker is and having a broker so close to TS stations may cause serious lag problems of their own).<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Players will crowd into the one city instances to avoid the lag in the city zones caused by horses and pets etc.<BR>

[Rijacki]

After getting some sleep and being plagued with insomnia...For me it is -still- about choices but -encouraging- presence or participation in desired locations.  Some of this is a repeat to my first post in this thread, but clarified or expanded upon.<font color="#ffff00">If the intent is to get more players to mingle in the cities and overland zones:</font><font color="#009900">Tradeskillers:</font>- Have 1 of each crafting station in the villages/hoods (not instanced) with tradeskill delegate, trainer, fuel seller(s), and at least a regular (non-timed) writ giver in addition to the existing bank.  Don't have brokers in the villages/hoods to keep them from being the single place to go.  Even leave off having the rush orders writ giver to leave the village/hood tradeskilling on a more "basic" level.- Retain two instances, one at the Ironforge Estate and the other at the Coalition of Tradesfolk but have them only have delegate, trainer (inside, not outside), fuel seller(s), and both writ givers.  No bank, no mailbox, and, most importantly, no broker.  The two instances would primarily be for doing writs by those who have lag issues elsewhere.- Retain in-room crafting stations (no dev has said these were going away) but reduce the price on the status bought ones and have others (that can make pristines) available only for coin like horses.  You could even tie discounted ones (status+coin or coin only) to the city tradeskill faction, but do not add broker buying or writ givers to houses.  You could, though, make a writ clipboard one of the faction purchase items from the city tradeskill faction merchants.- Have tradeskill stations (not instanced) in each of the city zones, at least 2 of each station in each city zone with -convenient- fuel sellers (for example, make sure the fuel seller closest to engraved tables sells incense and not candles, that the fuel seller next to a sewing table and mannican sells filaments and not sandpaper, that the work tables for jewelry have a nearby coal seller and not a merchant with only candles, that no one needs to travel to an distant location in zone or even to the next zone in order to obtain fuel).  Have writ givers relatively close to the locations of the tradeskill stations (in Freeport, the stations were in building clusters, so one set of givers for a cluster isn't inordinate; in Qeynos, the stations were spread out across the whole zone, so more than one writ giver set would be needed).  Have a centralised broker, banker, and mailbox in each city zone.  Don't put any crafting stations in the bank or broker buildings/locations and be mindful of having space around the crafting stations instead of cramming as many as possible into a room with other "flavour" furniture, but keep placement somewhat logical.  Even use tents or other types of lean-tos outside of the crowded logical buildings. AND, give the crafting stations in the City zones a <font color="#ff00ff">bonus</font> to craft.  Make it a significant bonus (+10 to +15) and have the less populated (now) city zones give a higher bonus (in the same way the housing has increased vault and broker slots or lower price the more "inconvenient" they are).  - Have tradeskill clusters in overland locations (like the village in Antonica and Steppes, a camp in Commlands and Nek Forest, etc) with appropriate fuel sellers and trainers (no need for a delegate) along with one of each writ giver type, banker, broker, and mail box. It would be good even if the writ givers were not tied to the city faction but their own, but giving money payouts only (more than the city ones) and having things that can be bought at various faction levels (kinda like the Maj'dul factions, heck, that would be a perfect place to have faction related writ givers, heaps more attractive than obtaining coins for the more tradeskill inclined player).  AND, give the crafting stations in overland zones <font color="#ff00ff">a healthy bonus</font> (equal to or more than the highest city bonus, +15 to +20 or even more depending on the adventure level of the area).  To further encourage out of city crafting, out of instance crafting, and changing crafting locations with level (like adventurers are encouraged to move from one area to another), have the fuels for the levels below that area (i.e. T1 and T2 fuel in Thundering Steppes) be unavailable, but the fuel for the target tier (i.e. T3 in Thundering Steppes) be at a reduced cost and the higher tiers at normal cost.  ((Guarenteed, if I got a discount price on fuel and a bonus for crafting at that location, I would definately travel to a different place to craft at different levels)).  If there is the fear of having people buy the cheap fuel in one place to carry it to craft elsewhere, have the discount fuel marked clearly as (and require a pop-up box confirmation) no zone and have it poof if they leave the zone.- Have tradeskill only quests which require using crafting stations and using craftingh skills in adventure areas that are SAFE to a low level adventurer (i.e. someone who is more tradeskiller than adventurer).<font color="#009900">Adventurers:</font>- Bring in Guild Halls into the cities.  Have the guild halls offer amenities like guild broker vendors (any guild member can place items for sale either only to guild members (like for a discount) or to the public to fill the guild coffer, cheaper menders, portals, whatever (lots of listings in other places what people want in guild halls).  Just like with housing have the costs and benefits tied to location.  Guild halls would be an incentive for guilds and especially raid guilds to spend more time in the cities.- Add the long long ago vitality benefits to crafted furniture and even have the benefits increase depending on the type of housing.  This would give more adventurers (and even crafters) reasons to use housing and more reason to travel to and from their houses.- Add in special bells to the inner city zones (i.e. not the zones which already have travel bells and carpets).  Make those bells more direct routes to certain "hot spots".  Have -those- bells only be available after doing mimumum level required quests based 100% inside the same city zone.  have one quest be tradeskill related and the other adventure related and the minimum level be at least 5 levels below the recommended level range for the destination.  It would be possible to have more than one location tied to each bell.  That would also give adventurers reasons to do things in the cities and/or to use them more often as conduits to where they want to go.- Make sure there is at least 1 mender, 1 banker, and 1 broker in each city zone.  - Increase the cost of mending (again) outside the city.  Have the menders in the city zones the cheapest, followed by the ones in the villages/hoods, and then graduate up depending on the location of the mender (at one time, long long long ago, menders outside of the city areas -were- significantly more costly).- Have return bells on the docks in the same places the desination bells take you from the city.  For those desintation bells which are quest locked, likewise have the bells at the destination also locked to the same quest completion (i.e. a bell to EL from Eldaar Grove could be unlocked in both directions by doing a quest in Eldaar Grove).- Have spawned raid targets in the cities (connected to the city raids), such as a traitor that needs to be dealt with, an infestation that needs to be taken care of, etc.- Make sure the adventure-related amenities (city quest giver, guild starter, fence) are not in the same zone as the main travel hub.  All the "best" amenities concentrated in one zone not only provide for a higher lag rate in that zone, they also discourage doing anything in other city zones because the "hub" has it all.<font color="#009900">Interaction between:</font>- Have crafted goods that adventurers desire.  Have the common crafted on-par with solo quested gear and rare crafted on-par with heroic quested.- Have drop items that can be used as is or improved by a crafter (not really sure the adornments will fill that need).- Have legendary and fabled drop items that need a crafter to make them into something truly grand.- Add craftable vitality regen potions.  Add more effects for totems or consumable other items.  Have desired consumable crafted items for EACH of the current tradeskill classes (and not jsut added to the two new meta classes).I'm sure I have more to say but my alarm to wake up just went off and I have been writing about an hour *laugh*.  I need to go get ready to trudge off to work.<font color="#009900"></font><div></div>

[Kadurm]

<P>One way I see this from the play test that went on, Yes they are trying to make crafting a more visible part of the community, </P> <P>So in that regard, add some crafting stations within the city proper for those that want to be seen when crafting, or for those quick combines you need to make for someone or something.</P> <P>But I dont think that forcing ppl to be seen is a good thing, give them the choice to be seen, but dont force them.</P> <P>Even in todays world, there are manufacturing plants all over the country, but you dont see those as open areas that are part of the day to day activities for the general public. They dont have restaurants and public facilities that ppl visit for those power lunches or coffee stops. </P> <P>These manufacturing plants are within closed walls so that you see the building, you know its there, you know what they do inside, but you dont NEED to go in there unless you work there, or are visiting and buying something.</P> <P> </P> <P>Its a good idea for the outside stations, I support that. But I can't see the reason behind the complete removal of the instances.</P> <P>I would even support what has been mentioned as a single building set up as the crafters plant, with all the items and stations needed. Even make it a fan faire thing, dress the building up with vendors around the outside so it looks more like a festive place rather than a cold dark damp sweat shop. </P> <P>Make the crafting part of the community by making it appeaing, not by forcing it on everyone.</P> <P> </P>

[Oakum]

<P>I never got to craft when I logged on after work due to not having any raws but I did run around and located some stations, npc's and add my toon to the zones. I never really lagged and since I am on a 3 year old laptop, some of the complaints I heard sounded like people were running graphics on high quality. I normally run at a modified extreme performance due to not wanting to see a lot of the fluff that the higher quality settings have like bushes and grass that hides nodes. </P> <P>I think they realize that having all the crafting in the main city zones wont work, that they need to keep at least an instance or two. I think that the elder grove option along with keeping ironforge exchange open is a better way to go.  </P> <P>If they could add in waypoints for the crafting devices, broker, banker, writgivers, fuel merchants, ect that would alleviate a lot of the confusion about where things are. Hit alt w, have a tradeskill tab on waypoints and it will send a trail to whichever location/npc we click on. </P> <P>Even if not for the lag or not being able to find the machines and needed npc's, people in general dislike change to things they have learned unless it benefits them directly somehow. I have to agree that it wont work the way it was on test. Even without a lot of learning pain by the crafters used to doing things the old way more stations, waypoints, and more spreadout stations, and more available npc's (brokers, bankers, writgivers, fuel/book venders) closer to the TS devices. </P>

[StevusX]

<P>I second Rijacki's nice post !</P> <P>Not much there i disagree with at all.</P> <P>Can we have Rijacki as Soe's Tradeskill dev please - pretty please :smileytongue:</P>

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StevusX wrote:<BR> <P>I second Rijacki's nice post !</P> <P>Not much there i disagree with at all.</P> <P>Can we have Rijacki as Soe's Tradeskill dev please - pretty please :smileytongue:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I totally opposed guild halls. Guilds have too many special privileges as it is. They don't need anymore! They can always turn one of the 5 room houses into a guild hall if they want. This game is rapidly turning into a game of haves and have-nots because of guilds.<BR>

[SweetiePie]

<P>Well I was at the playtest for most of it until the Claymore and then I crashed out.</P> <P>I thought the indoor stations were too crowded with furniture.  I, as a dwarf couldn't even walk between some of the tables.  The lag was horrible.  When I ran out of supplies in Sneed's it took me minutes just to turn around and walk to the door.  And I turned down my comp for the test, but it still didn't help.  </P> <P>I like the old ts instances because they are convenient.  Being "in-town" would be nice if there was space to do something; if I didn't have to run all over the zone to make something or buy my books; and if I could craft or move normally-which I couldn't last night.</P> <P>I am wondering what is going to happen to instanced "fighting" since crafting will be out in the open.  Will the instanced zones be done away with also?  </P> <P>After all, we crafters would like to make pristines and that's our fight.  </P> <P>If we are just there for other people to look at and say, "wow, look at all the crafters"--  Well, that's kind of silly since it ruins my crafting.</P> <P>To keep our ts instances and some ts stations in the main parts of town for quick jobs or people that live there to craft sounds nice.</P> <P>When I'm crafting in my ts instance I don't feel apart from everyone else.  I'm busy making items for someone and I want it done right.</P> <P> </P> <P>Linnette</P>

[Rijacki]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: Problem: Lag is caused by too many players in field of vision.Suggested solution(s): Have game engine alter client load when tradeskilling device is engaged. Cut the view down to X feet and darken/dampen surrounding area. X can be relatively small or large, or even adjusted in options by individual players for maximum choice/different PC systems.<hr></blockquote>I had to leave earlier because I needed to get ready for and head to work or I would have replied sooner.Is the desire of the devs to have tradeskillers be more a part of the community or is it just to have more people on display in various not very populated zones?If it is the later, then yes, having a cone of isolation descend on the crafter while he or she is crafting in order to minimise lag in an otherwise laggy environment is a solution.  The crafter would still be on display in the desired location but there would be even less interaction with the community or the environment than there is currently (on Live) in a tradeskill instance where there are generally other crafters of multiple types also crafting.If, however, it is the former (which the publically stated reasons indicate) and the devs want crafters to be more integrated with the community as a whole and to be able interact with others in that community while they're crafting instead of being tucked away, hidden in a dungeon.  Then isolated crafters in a Cone of Silence isn't an answer even if it would possibly reduce lag (but it might actually increase it since it is an effect which would need to be rendered, might as well, instead, have a requirement for graphics settings turned to absolute minimal in order for the crafting window to open, or even opening that window automagically adjusts graphics to the absolute minimal).It is postulated and observed that crafters end up staring at a wall no matter if in an instance or in the attic of a city shop and that the crafting window takes up most of the screen anyway, so what would difference a darkened area of "concentration".. would the crafter even notice since their display would be obscured anyway with the crafting window.How about, then, to encourage more involvement with the community, in addition to also encouraging (see my rather long and compltely non-ranty post from this morning) crafters to craft in more "public" areas also allow the crafting window to be resized.  One of my pet-peeves of crafting, actually, is that the crafting interface can only be "resized" by adjusting the dimensions of your whole screen.  That's silly.  For adventurers, every single interface element can be resized smaller to allow for greater field of vision.  Why shouldn't the elements of the tradeskiller's sceen?  I am lucky to have a ghads-awful HUGE monitor (alright, only 22in) with a pretty good vid card that allows me to run at 1600x1280 (or something higher, I forget) which lets me see a lot around the crafting interface.  When I am forced to use my smaller (17") monitor and my computer with not as good a vid card, it drives me batty to have the crafting window take up nearly the whole screen because I -do- want to interact with others around me (and have been known to be chatty in /say in a crafting instance).So... how is isolating the crafter but putting them on display for the adventurer really helping the crafter at all or making them feel more a part of the whole community rather than tucked inside a dark dungeon of a crafting instance?</div>

[Maroger]

<DIV>Rijacki - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do crafters have to be on display in the first place??? What is this silly idea of ONE BIG community of crafters and adventurers? When you craft you craft -- you don't bother with adventurers. Crafting is NOT a group activity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do developers feel they have to indulge in socail engineering -- make the game fun, social engineering is not a game developer's remit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you do things that make the game less fun for people, eventually they leave and move on to another game. SOE is heading down the road, full steam ahead with all the nerfs to crafting. Non-craters should NOT participate in this dicussion!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they want to put them in the outdoors in other zones, I don't care, but leave the iinstance as they are now!! Nobody asked for this change -- and with so many things being asked for why pick on another nerf to crafting.</DIV>

[Rijacki]

<div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> StevusX wrote: <div></div> <p>I second Rijacki's nice post !</p> <p>Not much there i disagree with at all.</p> <p>Can we have Rijacki as Soe's Tradeskill dev please - pretty please :smileytongue:</p> <hr> </blockquote>I totally opposed guild halls. Guilds have too many special privileges as it is. They don't need anymore! They can always turn one of the 5 room houses into a guild hall if they want. This game is rapidly turning into a game of haves and have-nots because of guilds.<hr></blockquote>But, they would be a way to encourage members of guilds to be more visible as the traversed the roads to return to their guild hall.  And, they, too would need a carrot type encouragement to use it, which means "priviledges" or benefits collectively for having one.Heck, I'd also love to see the return of the FAMILY idea and to have Family halls as well to allow a smaller group (without having onerous guild level requirements) to have a collective benefit.Frankly, I also do agree that guilds seem to have more benefits not available to the "have-nots".  Most of the guild level-locked items bought with status should just be a -discount- for a guild at thus and so level but available to all at a certain cost or even cost+status/faction-level (like horses and stuff from the factions in Maj'dul).  I am not in favour of guilds having the ONLY access to certain items, especially some of the more common items.</div>

[Rijacki]

<div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div>Rijacki - </div> <div> </div><div>Non-craters should NOT participate in this dicussion!!</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Are you suggesting I am a non-crafter?  or were you meaning that in general?As for being on display, I think if you read other posts of mine in this thread, if the sole reason for this is to "put crafters on display" for the benefit of others, I find it degrading and ludicrous.  Connecting and involving the crafting community with the -whole- community isn't a bad thing.  Connecting and involving the adventurer, raid, and guild community with the -whole- community is also not a bad thing.  Creating a -whole- community instead of various (warring) sub communities is a good thing for the total health of the game.I jsut think they're going about it ALL wrong.  (and I think any and every suggestion that crafters should be on display for the benefit of making the cities look busier or the amusement of the adventurers is ludicrous, I am not a puppy or trained monkey to be put on display behind a window.)</div>

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rijacki wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Frankly, I also do agree that guilds seem to have more benefits not available to the "have-nots".  Most of the guild level-locked items bought with status should just be a -discount- for a guild at thus and so level but available to all at a certain cost or even cost+status/faction-level (like horses and stuff from the factions in Maj'dul).  I am not in favour of guilds having the ONLY access to certain items, especially some of the more common items.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Frankly making common items available to ALL players  -- all horses, crafting stations for homes etc a la Maj'Dul-  would do a lot more for this game than sticking crafing stations in already overcroweded buildings.</P> <P>Part of the lack of community in the game is the have vs have-not atmosphere that SOE has sponsored and allowed to get out of control.<BR></P>

[StevusX]

<DIV>Maroger wrote:</DIV> <DIV>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>I totally opposed guild halls. Guilds have too many special privileges as it is. They don't need anymore! They can always turn one of the 5 room houses into a guild hall if they want. This game is rapidly turning into a game of haves and have-nots because of guilds.</DIV> <DIV>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Disagree here - just join a casual guild - its not hard, there are no "conditions" unlike raid guilds - and then do your own thing.</DIV> <DIV>It doesnt cost you anything, it doesnt affect your own gameplay unless you want it to.</DIV> <DIV>You can partake of the guild as little or as much as you want.</DIV> <DIV>You can even turn the Guild name tag off. </DIV> <DIV>Thats how my own (large) guild has always operated and i am sure there are many similar guilds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So there really isnt a valid excuse tbh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its like saying why should i have to group to kill the heroics to get the better loot......i wanna do it all solo :smileysurprised:</DIV> <DIV>well guess what, there are tiers in this game and, generally, if you want better "loot" you have to group with more and more people.</DIV> <DIV>solo----> group------>x2raid--------->x4 raid  = average loot ----->good loot------>pretty good loot--------> excellent loot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats the nature of the game. And status loot has it own "tier" structure of sorts so if you want high level status items join a guild.</DIV> <DIV>Just like if you want Fabled gear you join a raid.......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to be a solo tradeskiller (or adventurer) then you have to accept the limitations that go with that decision.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS sorry to be off topic.</DIV>

[Braill]

<P>Well, everyone has pretty much said what I feel, but I will add my voice to the clamor.</P> <P>I think we can all agree - they way it is now is not going to work!  There are lots of possibilities, but here is what I would like to see, regardless of whether it is instanced or not.</P> <P>1.  We need as many crafting stations as we currently have.  I already think the instances are crowded because of the decrease in the number of societies available.</P> <P>2.  Horses and carpets have to go in the crafting area.  If I have to share a station, please dont mess up my new view by making me stare at a horse's butt!</P> <P>3.  Wherever you add the crafting stations, please include all stations and necessary npcs for crafters to do what they do.  It would be nice to have a broker in each zone or at least in each city zone to make him easier to find and to spread the lag around.  But if I can craft in my home zone then I can always list my stuff for sale through my apartment and thats good enough for me.  (Of course, it would be nice if I could also buy through my bulletin board in my house.)</P> <P>4.  Cover us up - dont bring us out of the basement just to make us stand in the rain.  I think there are lots of people who are really concerned about this effect.</P> <P>5.  Please dont think this will make us socialize - we are either social players or we arent.  Whatever your objective with this change - dont think it will make us do anything that doesnt already fit with our playstyle.</P> <P>And we need more testing.  I was not at all surprised by the test yesterday.  Lag, frustration and crowding - am I the only one who saw those things coming?</P> <P>Just my 2cp, I love to craft, but the changes as they are now just aint gonna fly!</P>

[Krontak]

<DIV>I got a solution to make the towns look more crowded.  How about Freeport and Qeynos burn to the ground in a live event and only cinders remain.  That will force everyone into the smaller towns and give them a more lively look!  There, problem solved.  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I'm a genious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's please not isolate the crafters here to make your perfect world.  If your going to try and create more of a community lets not isolate the crafters and have them on display.  Just destroy a few of the larger cities areas in a fire and leave the smaller communities, OR, remove elddar grove, GY, Baubbleshire, CH, NH and WW.  For God sakes, there's 10 qeynos side cities and 10 Freeport side cities.  No wonder they are [Removed for Content] empty!  All we really need is a NQ, SQ and Harbor.   If not remove the smaller city zones have them overrun by evil and make them all adventuring zones or something.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Krontak on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:36 AM</span>

[Lyriel]

<P>The problem with these changes is, if they are really for the benefit of crafters, they show a lack of understanding of what would actually benefit them.</P> <P>Crafters.... <STRONG>craft</STRONG>.</P> <P>It is what we choose to do, while we are doing it. Changes that render that choice wildly impractical, if not impossible, are not really beneficial. It would be ill-received if adventuring content suddenly received similar aggravating (if not nigh-insurmountable) barriers - imagine moving mobs to random city zones, placing them mostly inside terrain so they are not real visible and very hard to target, and then trying to fight them among the usual city lag and clutter/spam/etc. As unlockable encounters. During the Halloween event. </P> <P>I came to the test (as Aumari), and tried to run through the newbie Seeking a Profession quest. I ran at extreme performance settings. Aside from content-related issues (e.g., the note from the island still directs you to the non-existant village instances, the trainer who <EM>will</EM> ding you to 2 is not marked with the feather nor indicated to you in any way as someone to seek, etc.), it is very frustrating mechanically. In the instances, you could see where all the stations were with a minimum of exploration. In the city zones, there is no easy way to figure out where they are if you are unfamiliar with the zones (which a newbie may well be). There needs to be more instruction in the course of that quest about where you might find the stations and fuels listed. Proper fuel vendors need to be located near the stations and clearly marked as fuel vendors (several just look like random color NPCs or vendors of other goods). Waypoints would be useful too.</P> <P>On extreme performance, my computer did not crash. However, it took a long time (sometimes nearly a minute) for many objects and NPCs (including the trainers) to render. Zoning was literally minutes' worth of wait. I worked the first several parts of the Seeking a Profession quest in NQ. Since I had no durability counters, it's no surprise I didn't manage pristines... but I did miss several rounds due to lag, and thereby a number of counter opportunities (which, when failures catch up to you at once - OUCH, both to the product and the person). Many stations were very cramped and hard to target/see/get to. I moved to SQ when we were asked to also hit that zone. I was on the part of the quest that requires you to craft a spell. The placement of those stations in the Mage Tower has to be the most annoying choice ever, even if it seems a logical one. The trainers were at the far end near the NQ zone, but the tower is near the QH zone. And the chatter/clutter/distractions/hazards are worse. One false step to avoid a large mounted person and I found myself exploring a different area of the tower. I meant to go back and test what happened if I had been engaged in an actual crafting session and been jostled onto one, but forgot in the lag.</P> <P>The lag issue cannot be casually dismissed. The crafting system depends on being both proactive and reactive to events. <STRONG>The</STRONG> <STRONG>object of crafting is to create the items one intends to create.</STRONG> In pristine form.  If you add in the newly-implemented timed rush orders, then in pristine form <EM>and</EM> on a very tight deadline. The object of adventuring is generally to gain experience/quests/rewards, largely by killing mobs. Kill timers are rare. Mobs generally do not reach some lesser state of dead if you failed to use certain HOs/spells/CAs/etc., or if the fight took longer than usual, etc. (nor are there varying levels of loot from those mobs based on lesser states of dead). Players don't tend to give adventurers a rare item with the expection they will receive a certain level of quality item in return for the adventurer killing a mob (to the very dead state, to strain my analogy a bit more). I think you can see what I mean.</P> <P>The idea of leaving the instances is not what I find objectionable, per se. Sure, I like to tuck myself into a relaxing, familiar nook, and will resent you taking that nook away without explanation. But the real problem for me is that <STRONG>the alternative, in its current state, does not allow me to achieve my goal as a crafter at all</STRONG>. I literally cannot use the tools given to me to consistently craft a pristine item (never mind on a tight schedule) as it stands. Leaving aside the total inconvenience of the locations, brokers, banks, trainers, writ givers, fuel vendors, and bodies/pets/mounts in my way, when I finally get to my appointed station with all my supplies, I cannot consistently create the object that I set out to create. I cannot do so, not because I don't know how to use my skills, but because performance issues make them impossible to apply. On live, in my instances, I always achieve pristine and I can make rush order times.</P> <P>For me, that's what it comes down to. Don't break my content. Add options all you like - heck, if I could craft in this current situation I might like it. But I can't. That you want me out of the dungeon is undoubtedly nothing but well-intended on your part... but we all know where roads paved with good intentions lead. Intention is insufficient. Crafters need to be able to actually craft, or their game is broken. </P> <P>This is directed to SOE, who are the only ones who can tell us what they can and cannot do to fix the issue: <STRONG>Show us a solution that doesn't break us.</STRONG> Until I see a working, workable solution, I call this an utter failure. And please, do not make promises about later adding more TS instances to overland zones, etc. We have heard that one before, and are still waiting... Whatever you choose to implement has to be a complete solution in its present form, and not dependent on some nebulous future delivery.</P> <P>Lyriel</P>

[Kordran]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR>Problem: Lag is caused by too many players in field of vision.<BR><BR>Suggested solution(s): Have game engine alter client load when tradeskilling device is engaged. Cut the view down to X feet and darken/dampen surrounding area. X can be relatively small or large, or even adjusted in options by individual players for maximum choice/different PC systems. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Problem: Not thinking through the implications of a suggestion.</P> <P>Suggested Solution: Think. If your design goal is to bring crafters out of the "tradeskill dungeons" to make the cities look more active, then what are you accomplishing here? If you're reducing clip range to something immediately around the crafter, then who exactly are they going to see to interact with... and how exactly does this resolve the issue for non-crafters who have to endure the lag and/or crash to desktop whenever they need to move near an area that has a lot of crafters? If you reduce clip range for everyone inside a region where crafting stations are, then how are you making the cities look more active? Players will see less of each other, not more. So, unless your idea of making it more "alive" for players is just bumping the count from /who, I fail to see how your suggestion is any kind of solution whatsoever.</P>

[Maroger]

I hope this thread does not get ignored with so many people adding on the Glendral's original thread.

[Goldenflig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> I hope this thread does not get ignored with so many people adding on the Glendral's original thread.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I realize the thread got off-topic (takes responsibility for her part and hangs head.) Reading the other thread this morning, however,  I found the same issue being discussed. </P> <P>I have faith that the devs will see the several threads posted here. :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[BK613]

Part of what I posted on Grendal's original thread: <font color="#ffffcc"> Like many others, I rolled a toon for test in order to participate in last night's test.  Unfortunately, I did not make it off the island and to NQ in time to participate in anything but the laggy chat session at the end.  I did however, craft 1-10 afterwards and so the following impressions are based on that.</font><font color="#ffffcc"> </font> <font color="#ffffcc"> </font><font color="#ffffcc"> 1.  As everyone has said, way too laggy.  Missed several counters do to lag, and this was after everyone else had pretty much left.  Crafters depend on minimal lag like nobody else does, except for maybe raiders.  And the cost of lag to them can usually be measured in gold or plat.</font><font color="#ffffcc"> </font><font color="#ffffcc"> 2.  Very inconvenient to have the stations spread out, too much running from A to B, especially on the newbie quest. </font><font color="#ffffcc"> </font><font color="#ffffcc"> 3.  The cramp little buildings are horrible.  In the Clothspinner shop, you have to jump over the NPCs desk to reach one of the stations, it's so cramped.</font><font color="#ffffcc"> </font><font color="#ffffcc"> 4.  Pets and mounts take up too much space in these buildings. An hour after the test, I saw a crafter on a horse in the Jeweler shop.</font><font color="#ffffcc"> </font><font color="#ffffcc"> 5.  I missed the background music of the instances.</font><font color="#ffffcc"> </font><font color="#ffffcc"> 6.  As a 'newbie,' I would find the layout confusing at best and the whole NQ experience last night would have turned me off of TSing if that was how I was introduced to it.</font><font color="#ffffcc"> </font> <font color="#ffffcc"> </font><font color="#ffffcc"> In addition, I agree with those that have commented on the lack-of-quality aspects of crafted goods.  Crafters should be able to produce a sellable product.  IMO,  handcrafted should be just slight less better than treasured and mastercrafted slightly less better than legendary.    Fable and Mythical should be in their own categories.</font> <div></div>

[Sarkoris]

<DIV>I am by no means a dedicated crafter. Having said that I do have a 57 Sage and multiple 20-30 crafters. Adventuring is still my main passtime though. Now thats out the way I'd like to make some observations (and yes I play on test as well).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was unable to attend the test due to it being during the work day for my timezone. I run a mid specced machine and can play quite comfortably on balanced settings with the occassional stutter after long playing sessions with repeated zoning. I avoid most city zones not just due to the extra lag that comes with more players, but also due to the poor layout of most of these zones. I am from Freeport, with East Freeport and West Freeport not to badly designed, South Freeport not too flash due to so many stairs and the horror that is North Freeport (running from side to side due to high walls and curving stairs/paths).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do I want to be forced to these zones to craft. Not really.  Only West Freeport has a bank. As I said my lag increases the more I zone, I play the game to have fun, not to play fetch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now having said all of the above I like the idea of crafting outdoors. On occassion. When I want to. Not because I have been forced to. And don't even get me started on the new type of griefing this allows. Get 1/2 a dozen friends and go and dance and shoot of fireworks at the outdoor stations, extra lag, failed combine. Yes this could be done in an instance as well, but you would have a harder explaining to a GM saying you were just playing the game in a TS instance than in a normal city zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I originally played UO, and did not start playing EQ 1 until late 2000. Crafting in that game was well done. All shops of a tradeskill type had a relevant workstation. Go to the local blacksmiths and he had a forge out the front. If you were an armourer you could just grab some tongs and get to work. An adventurer wandering passed could ask for repairs, request a new item etc. If lead to interaction. I think this is sort of what SOE is aiming at with these changes but I don't think the nature of crafting lends itself as well to this type of collaboration. In UO was a simple select an item, make an item. No effects requiring counters. While working with someones rare to make an item close to your skill elvel do you really want to have to discuss how much you would charge and what you need to make another item. And from the adventurers point of view, how would you feel constantly be told, hang on a mnute Im working.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, if there is not an underlying reason to make this change, and by that I mean to free up server side resources etc and not the explained reason of getting craftsman out of the instances, leave the instances as is. Add new outdoor stations to all city zones, and thiose that want to get outside will. I think that is the catch cry  of what I am reading in these discussions, add to the game. Don't subtract features.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sark.</DIV>

[Myrcul]

<DIV>I'm opposed to these changes.  Crafting is already a real pain in the tuchuss but if you introduce more lag, more running around, and the end rewards are the same, there is no reason to want to continue crafting and if I do wish to continue it will be from my home with a purchased crafting station.  This excludes the ability to do writs, but really, who cares? If my choice is writs or having to deal with lag and unnecessary errand running because everything has been made more inconvenient for me... then a personal station in my house it is. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These changes are nonsensical.  There are multitudes of better ways to build community than to 'bring crafters out of the dungeons'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a bad Idea Devs and I hope you realise and rethink your decision.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>M</DIV>

[Calthine]

For the 95th time... Instances are not being removed.http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=65210

[StevusX]

YET................:smileysad:

[Rijacki]

<div><blockquote><hr>StevusX wrote:<div></div>YET................:smileysad:<hr></blockquote>"Yet" has been phrased by the devs as a "might" not a 100% definate thing and NOT going in with the next GU or probably not for several to come if it does.The -idea- has merit, but the execution needs work.  The devs, with the wealth of comments and the actual playtest, recognise it needs work and are withdrawing the drastic change to give it time to be worked on.  THAT is laudible.This, crafting instances being removed, is NOT something that is going to happen now.  It's not something that is definately going to happen in the foreseeable near future, either.</div>

[retro_guy]

I want nude crafting.That would certainly increase the social side of tradeskilling.<div></div>

[rszazix]

<div><blockquote><hr>retro_guy wrote:I want nude crafting.That would certainly increase the social side of tradeskilling.<div></div><hr></blockquote>i live in freeport,we have trolls in freeport,i'll have to vote no on that.<span> <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[BlackVelve]

<DIV>Feedback from me is:  please keep atleast some of the instances around for people who lag a lot.  Having them outside is nice too..but not everyone has a good pc and connection to be able to craft in the cities.</DIV>

[Fizzelopegu]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<blockquote><hr>Didi wrote:<div></div><p><span class="time_text">Regarding the point that crafters are isolated -- I strongly feel this is a false perception.  Physically, we may be sitting in crafting dungeons; but we aren't limited to speaking with people where we physically are.  Most conversation crafters have (indeed, most conversation anyone in this game has) is not affected by where they physically are, but takes place in channels, guild chat, group chat --- methods of communication not limited by physical location.  How often do you chat with someone next to you in /say, no matter whether you are a crafter or an adventurer?  Far more likely you're chatting in guild, and in channels.</span> </p><hr></blockquote>There's an old saying I tend to repeat quite a bit within my guild that "nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd". I bring this up because one of the largest complaints I hear about Everquest 2 is that our cities don't feel "alive" like cities in other games...especially when compared to cities like World of Warcraft.<hr></blockquote>With wow it comes down to 2 things really.1) Taverns, these are the only places in the game where you can gain rested xp, pretty much everyone who plays the game logs out here precisely for that reason, even after you reach level 60 i still logged out here because it pretty much became routine. You can also SIT in chairs and buy drinks in them, and this helps roleplaying quite a bit, when i played there was always a ton of roleplayers hanging out in the taverns (loads of idiots as well of course)And don't forget the hearthstone, many times i've used a hearthstone to just quickly stock up on my poisons and head out fighting again...only to join in whatever revelries were happening in the tavern at the time.2) One bank and auction house per city, these become focal points for obvious reasons.</div>

[Kenikia]

<div><blockquote><hr>Fizzelopeguss wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<blockquote><hr>Didi wrote:<div></div><p><span class="time_text">Regarding the point that crafters are isolated -- I strongly feel this is a false perception.  Physically, we may be sitting in crafting dungeons; but we aren't limited to speaking with people where we physically are.  Most conversation crafters have (indeed, most conversation anyone in this game has) is not affected by where they physically are, but takes place in channels, guild chat, group chat --- methods of communication not limited by physical location.  How often do you chat with someone next to you in /say, no matter whether you are a crafter or an adventurer?  Far more likely you're chatting in guild, and in channels.</span> </p><hr></blockquote>There's an old saying I tend to repeat quite a bit within my guild that "nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd". I bring this up because one of the largest complaints I hear about Everquest 2 is that our cities don't feel "alive" like cities in other games...especially when compared to cities like World of Warcraft.<hr></blockquote>With wow it comes down to 2 things really.1) Taverns, these are the only places in the game where you can gain rested xp, pretty much everyone who plays the game logs out here precisely for that reason, even after you reach level 60 i still logged out here because it pretty much became routine. You can also SIT in chairs and buy drinks in them, and this helps roleplaying quite a bit, when i played there was always a ton of roleplayers hanging out in the taverns (loads of idiots as well of course)And don't forget the hearthstone, many times i've used a hearthstone to just quickly stock up on my poisons and head out fighting again...only to join in whatever revelries were happening in the tavern at the time.2) <font color="#ffff00">One bank and auction house per city, these become focal points for obvious reasons.</font></div><hr></blockquote>Which was one of the things I despised about WoW.  I don't need the lag of a ton of people in the same place.  I don't need to fight to be able to click on whatever it is I want because there are a gazliion people there.  It is bad enough around the broker in EQ2 sometimes or the banker but it is nothing compared to the auction house.Heck in EQ2, the tradeskill instance is the one placce where there are actually people in one spot...but not like they are sitting around chatting.  That isn't going to change just by moving us out into the open.  When you have to use buffs and counter events, you don't have time to be trying to watch chat channels and spacial and tells....I hate when i lose a pristine because i took a couple seconds to type something in chat <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>