can we have our pets back please?

[armus5]

<DIV>Summoners received a stealth nerf to our pet's hitpoints recently and we're not happy about it. Haven't you guys done enough to make us reroll our classes? I want some dev love and that means I want to be able to raid and not recast my pet three times in a fight. You lengthened the recast on our dumbfires, decreased their attacks, made them affected by AE. Geez, why not just take the stupid spells away from us next. A summoner was meant to rely on their pets for damage and you've made us into gimped wizards. </DIV> <DIV>You know how we solo heroics? Here's a hint, the pet isn't involved. It's root and nuke just like the wizards only it takes 10 times as long cause we only have one root and a weak nuke. So why are we summoners when pets are so easily killed and do such little damage? The essence of this class is lost.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>___________</DIV> <DIV>There is hope</DIV> <DIV>and its name is</DIV> <DIV>Vanguard</DIV>

[Melchiah]

Summoners still top the parse and provide a lot of utility.

[Ebjelen]

<DIV>roflmao. I really think the guy is joking. Soloing heroics without the pet so you shouldn't be nerfed anymore? :smileyvery-happy: :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Sarkoris]

<P>Nope - I don't think he is joking. Summoners have always had to play poor mans Sorcerors to kill heroics solo reliably. Any experience giving heroic (named usually) that we want to have a chance of loot off, has to be root/nuked. Notice I say root/nuked, not root/rotted. With the way roots are given a percentage chance to break with each damage, and not each round/tick we can't pile on our dots. We have to nuke with our 1.2k lifetap, trigger our lich proc (about 400). We then have to hope that if root breaks it triggers the fear/snare component so we get a chance to reroot. To say this method is painfully slow is an understatement. I have no problem with this, as has been stated most heroics are intended for group kills, and if try to solo them you take your chances.</P> <P>What summoners are objecting to is a reduction in hp that greatly affects solo/group/raid play yet was not listed in patch notes. I have the Master tank pet, which used to previously show with my Master defensive pet buff as 14k hp. The hp were so high as the Necromancer class can't buff mitigation for their pet (they have very little). I will let a Conjuror say what their pets hp/mit showed as. Pets now show as 7.5-8khp (about a 45 per cent reduction). Seeing no Necromancer I know of attempts to solo heroics using their pets (it just doesn't work, they get owned), all this does is affect soloing Summoners, grouped Summoners who fight mobs with AOE CA's and of course raiders who now have the joy of micromanaging a pet rather than dpsing, or letting it die several times a fight.</P> <P>Now some of you might say melee classes have had to deal with jousting for max dps, so why shouldn't Summoners. This makes sense on the surface (and I have a 70 Assassin as well so know a little about what I am talking about here). But investigated further there are holes in the logic. Pets aren't players, they are basically an AI driven dot wrapped in pet clothing. If a melee hears an AOE call, or times it themselves, they can joust out as desired. The Summoner issues a back off command to their pet to achieve the same goal. The pet can either obey immediately, obey eventually (the more likely scenario),  or obey but path back to you so badly they get caught in the AOE anyway. Try that as a melee sometime. </P> <P>Don't get me wrong. I don't mind having to look after my pet to achieve my best dps. But give us the tools to do so before applying changes. Pets at present don't follow correctly (fall far behind the caster when following, no update on this change as yet). The caster versions have a tendancy to charge into melee range while their ca's cycle (rather than acting as a player caster would and staying at range). They also are intimidated by stairs, flowers, rocks or anything else that can change the height of a mob in relation to the caster so that something 10 feet away gives you the can't attack that message.</P> <P>Fix our pets so we can  play them the way you want us to before making changes that presume we can play them that way. Basically you have made some changes in how we used to play, no problem there. But you don't allow to play the new way effectively. And also, the always present gripe that these changes were brought in with no mention in the patch notes (stealth nerf). Don't treat as fools, we will notice when gameplay changes. Be upfront about what you changed and why you changed it so wee know where we stand. Some will whinge, but most will just adjust and move on. We enjoy playing you game else we wouldn't be here. Help us to make it stay that way.</P> <P>Sark.</P>

[Jelrak]

<P>Well said sark !</P> <P> </P>

[Melchiah]

I can solo heroics up to about 65^^^ with my master tank pet with the defensive stance mastered, and I can tear apart up to a 74^^.That seems more than reasonable given the fact that they're not meant to be solo mobs.

[nadym]

<P>This is very sad, im spending lot of time and 8 achievement points just to get 14.7 defense on my pet and they nerf the HPs</P> <P>By the way change the dreadnought model, I liked much more the skelly model, specially the master I</P>

[Wrytched]

<DIV>I don't play a summoner, I'll admit that from the start.  I'm sure most people will find that reason enough to ignore what I say but here goes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a shadowknight, a tank class, or at least a class that's supposed to be able to tank.  The problem I've seen with a few of the pet classes, is that their pets are better than real tanks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't like to see any class get nerfed.  If a nerf does take place, people should be made aware of it at least. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can see the need for balancing, and I think it's the classes bragging about being able to solo yellow ^^^ heroics that leads to them being nerfed.  Somethings shouldn't happen, but people find creative ways of playing their class, and the developers have to compensate for it somehow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:  sorry, re-read the detailed post (Pets now show as 7.5-8khp (about a 45 per cent reduction)  Your pet had 4000 points more than me buffed ROFL, and my gear is from labs, dare I ask what his mitigation and avoidance are... I don't even want to think about dps/atk since I watch pets steal agro often</DIV><p>Message Edited by Wrytched on <span class=date_text>09-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:39 AM</span>

[Fael]

Well I havent gotten too far into my necromancers or conjurers to be honest. I dont like seeing our pets nerfed, as I solo, and l like my current ability to do so.But if Wrytceds comments are valid, and I personally cant compare SKs to summoner pets, then it sounds like some balancing needed to be done.  <div></div>Im am actually fine with my pets abilities.  And anyone that talks about soloing yellow ^^^ heroics, and then complains about nerfs is just being selfish in not considering other classes.Mal

[JamesRay]

Pets have no mitigation, that's why they used to have more hit points to make up for it.

[Uanelven]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Wrytched wrote:<div></div><div></div><div> dare I ask what his mitigation and avoidance are... I don't even want to think about dps/atk since I</div><p>Message Edited by Wrytched on <span class="date_text">09-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:39 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Don't worry, pets don't tank.   They are just a lump of un-armoured 'pet-stuff' which gets hp's torn from it <u>very</u> quickly in very large chunks.<span></span></p></div>

[Sekkong]

<P>Well for starters</P> <P>You gotta look at it this way.  They have continued to silent nerf the pets without telling the community.   What will continue to happen is they will continue to silent nerf are pets until its about as useful as the dumbfire pets.</P> <P>We invest alot of money into are pets as summoner classes.  Then to top it off.  Are AA's are desgiend around are pets.   But what good is the aa's if are pets will continue to become more and more useless.  They ninja nerf pets becuase they know they cant justify the change in the open.  Also.  Alot of these nerfs dont come from what the summoner classes are doing.  It comes what other classes cant.   We are a utility class.  We are designed to be able to utilitze all the abilities given to us to obtain the goal.   Pet heal, pet stone skin, Pet on death blow heal, We can kill are pet to heal our groups - both mana, hp.  </P> <P>As a soloing Conjuror there are serveral mobs/named that i watch other classses solo that I continue to have problems with.   Root parking a mob isnt always the answer.  Some Nuke to hard, Hit to hard and what not.  Alot of these issues come from gear.   Changing your gear to add gear with procing damage can change soloing a ton for a conjuror becuase it adds how fast we can burn down a mob before the pet dies.</P> <P>I am an Air pet conjuror.  I am AA spec with a Master 1 air pet with master 1 pet haste buff.  My Air pet pretty much dies to every type of Aoe on a raid now.  Its like the pet has no resists and no way of Mitting the damage.  and typically my stoneskin / on death health are both down when the pet finally dies on every raid mob.   </P> <P>My Tank pet is Master 1 with Adept 3 defensive stance.   Pretty much any 64+ ^^^ becomes a change at this point where for other classes IE wizards burn thru those mobs like candy.  Where now that are Tank pet is taking huge amounts of damage now since they took away the mitgation and hp comes down to the point where id almost rather use my air pet and just root/park the mobs until the air pet is back up.</P> <P>Toss up Frigid winds/Kite with air pet taking agro every now and then.</P> <P>I would really just like to see some devs justify to us why the changes to the pets.  Dont tell us AA's.   Dont tell us becuase we solo to well.  Also why they ninja nerf it without telling the community leaving us to find out on are own.  Yes it makes s difference when your pet loses mitgation/hp all of a sudden mobs you been soloing for 6 months start destorying your pet.</P> <P>And surely dont tell us becuase wizards are complaining about are solo abilities. </P>

[Goresling]

Just a note...they are heroic mob encounters.  They aren't SUPPOSED to be solo'd.  The fact that you can still solo one, even with some difficulties is telling me that there is nothing wrong with your class.  On a raid, if a wizard gets to close to a mob, he dies from AoEs...sometimes.  Would you like for SOE to put wizards in plate armor?  geez

[Lilj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goreslinger wrote:<BR> Just a note...they are heroic mob encounters.  They aren't SUPPOSED to be solo'd.  The fact that you can still solo one, even with some difficulties is telling me that there is nothing wrong with your class.  On a raid, if a wizard gets to close to a mob, he dies from AoEs...sometimes.  Would you like for SOE to put wizards in plate armor?  geez<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wasn't it more like, they can be soloed by a good player with good gear and upgraded spells, but can't be soloed by a player with only app 4 spells?</P> <P>I have this memory in the back of my head that a dev said something like that, perhaps around GU13. That the well-equipped, upgraded player that knew his class could do things above the base line the con system was made for and could therefore pull off cool things. Of course, my memory can be playing tricks on me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Liljna on <span class=date_text>09-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:13 PM</span>

[Lydiae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sekkong wrote: <P>You gotta look at it this way.  They have continued to silent nerf the pets without telling the community.   What will continue to happen is they will continue to silent nerf are pets until its about as useful as the dumbfire pets.</P> <P>We invest alot of money into are pets as summoner classes.  Then to top it off.  Are AA's are desgiend around are pets.   But what good is the aa's if are pets will continue to become more and more useless.  They ninja nerf pets becuase they know they cant justify the change in the open.   </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have a mid-level necro.  So, you see it as the sky is falling and it's only going to get worse.  Just for argument's sake, why would the devs do that?  They don't want anyone to play a summoner?  They have a personal dislike for summoners?  They think it's funny?</P>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Liljna wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Wasn't it more like, they can be soloed by a good player with good gear and upgraded spells, but can't be soloed by a player with only app 4 spells?</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have this memory in the back of my head that a dev said something like that, perhaps around GU13. That the well-equipped, upgraded player that knew his class could do things above the base line the con system was made for and could therefore pull off cool things. Of course, my memory can be playing tricks on me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes, that got said... I swear people don't look to see what gear/spells a person has, they just look at the class and go OMG that [enter class here] just took out that mob. I could never do that. NERF THEM!!!!!!</P> <P>It also makes a huge difference if you've been playing your class since the beginning of the game.. you've had a lot of opportunity to learn what you can/can't do as opposed to someone who just powerleveled their toon to  70 last week.</P> <P>I have to agree with the OP... what they did to my conj's pets is a lot more frustrating than even what they did to my Troub with LU24.  I admit however, that I don't have nearly as much experience with my conj as with my troub, so maybe the changes weren't bad, just tougher for me to adapt... but my pets do go down way too fast ... I mean, there's only so fast I can heal them... if you must reduce their HPs please triple our heal or something...</P> <P>and seriously, wizards complaining about conj's... hi pot, meet kettle.</P>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goreslinger wrote:<BR> Just a note...they are heroic mob encounters.  They aren't SUPPOSED to be solo'd.  The fact that you can still solo one, even with some difficulties is telling me that there is nothing wrong with your class.  On a raid, if a wizard gets to close to a mob, he dies from AoEs...sometimes.  Would you like for SOE to put wizards in plate armor?  geez<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>A necro/conj cannot stand any farther back than a wizard/warlock in a raid so I have no clue what that babble quoted above is supposed to mean.</P> <P>We all range our casts unless you feel the need to run up and uselessly melee as a wizard.</P> <P>And I hope you also realize wizards can solo heroics just as easily as any necro or conj.</P>

[Fayline Fyrecat]

When was this "stealth nerf" supposedly put in?  I've played a couple times since LU27 and haven't really noticed any difference in my tank pet's survivability when soloing.  If I get time tonight I'll check it out again in case it was added after LU27.  Has anyone actually possessed their pet yet to prove it one way the another?

[pebyr]

<div></div>gotta love the perennial comment of "some summoners are still topping the parse".  well i got news for you.  if their pet dies, they're not topping the parse.  In some zones like Halls of Seeing, i'm recasting my pet a couple of times per fight, on occasion.I dont see the wizzies running into melee range and swinging at the mob, so i'm not sure comparing them to my pet is very relevant.  Nine times out of ten, my pet dies to an ae that no human dies to.  I am getting better, but now your ability to parse depends very much on your ability to keep your pet alive in a raid.  So anything that drops hp, hurts us immensely, unless of course the developers are looking to change us into a non dps class.  lol.  if they are going to drop the hp, then make the recast timers on vehement gem and intervention lower, so that they can be used when needed to keep the stupid pet alive or fix it so that the silly mage pet doesn't insist on working his crushing skills. <div></div><p>Message Edited by pebyr on <span class=date_text>09-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:16 PM</span>

[Sarkoris]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fayline Fyrecat wrote:<BR> When was this "stealth nerf" supposedly put in?  I've played a couple times since LU27 and haven't really noticed any difference in my tank pet's survivability when soloing.  If I get time tonight I'll check it out again in case it was added after LU27.  Has anyone actually possessed their pet yet to prove it one way the another?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes Fay - that is where I got the hp figures I quoted. I am not exactly sure when the stealth adjustment (I dislike the word nerf) came into effect. But I had previously possessed my Master I Undying Dreadnaugh and he had approx 14k hp. Mitigation is non existant and avoidance is in the order of 20 something per cent. The new "improved" pet has 7.5 ish (maybe 7.<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> hp and the same mit/avoidance. </P> <P>To the Sk who was concerned about the pets previous hp total of 14k - trust me when I say your mitigation more than made you = our tank pets tanking ability. But also remember I am talking the Master I pet here - so all his CA's are master level as well which helps him tank. I would be curious as to how many hp the adept I/III pet has. I also have the Master defensive stance to help out (16 per cent more hp rather than 12/14 at adept I/III).</P> <P>This is on top of a previous stealth adjusment that gave the tank pet in defensive a -25 per cent dps mod. Not just the standard lowering of offensive skills (slash/pierce/crush etc) but a direct reduction of his DPS. So not only do we have to keep the pet up longer now (due to his lowered dps) we have less pet hp to do it with.</P> <P>Again, let me reinterate my original post. Please advise us of these changes, we spot them eventually anyway. If our dps needs to be rebalanced also fix the problems mentioned in my original post so that we can achieve the dps level you have desired. If we can't because of bugs/poor design then we are being overbalanced.</P> <P>This is by no means a "sky is falling" post. I am merely offering up some facts to support the OP's claims in light of the "he must be joking" replies. Yes I can still do very good dps, yes I can still solo mobs, group effectively, and raid well. But I also know my class very well having been a necro since original beta, and probably have better geasr/master levels than the average player.</P> <P>Please don't just reply with Summoners still top parsers. Some do, some don't. That is very subjective.  </P> <P>Sark. </P> <P>   </P>

[baddog]

<DIV>SOB I wish they'd get rid of raids, or move them to their own servers so the majority of the players wouldn't have their classes ' balanced ' for the sniveling few</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>soloing summoners are gutted , either we spike dps for the 30s our tanks live, or root nuke with the mage till it breaks an we both get one shotted </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>complaining about the abilitys of another class may get it nurfed , but what comes around goes around , and I'm SURE I'd rather have my Wizzys root durations back, than snivel about summoner dps</DIV>

[swedago]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JamesRay wrote:<BR> Pets have no mitigation, that's why they used to have more hit points to make up for it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly

[Melchiah]

<blockquote><hr>pebyr wrote:<div></div>gotta love the perennial comment of "some summoners are still topping the parse".  well i got news for you.  if their pet dies, they're not topping the parse.  In some zones like Halls of Seeing, i'm recasting my pet a couple of times per fight, on occasion.I dont see the wizzies running into melee range and swinging at the mob, so i'm not sure comparing them to my pet is very relevant.  Nine times out of ten, my pet dies to an ae that no human dies to.  I am getting better, but now your ability to parse depends very much on your ability to keep your pet alive in a raid.  So anything that drops hp, hurts us immensely, unless of course the developers are looking to change us into a non dps class.  lol.  if they are going to drop the hp, then make the recast timers on vehement gem and intervention lower, so that they can be used when needed to keep the stupid pet alive or fix it so that the silly mage pet doesn't insist on working his crushing skills. <div></div><p>Message Edited by pebyr on <span class=date_text>09-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:16 PM</span><hr></blockquote>In HoS, I call my caster pet back as soon as he moves, then put him right back into attack mode. It can be done in the middle of a spell, and doesn't take much effort to keep the pets alive. There are also abilities to compensate for the pet being hurt (final int AA ability, consumption, pet heals, direct heals). You can even do less work by just moving the pet when the AoE is about to fire (and that allows for the scout pet to sit in as well).

[nadym]

<P>Why did soe do a stealth nerf without any explanation?</P> <P>I am expending several AA points just to increase the defense of my pet, just to have its hitpoints severly (45%!!!!) nerfed??</P>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> baddog wrote:<BR> <DIV>SOB I wish they'd get rid of raids, or move them to their own servers so the majority of the players wouldn't have their classes ' balanced ' for the sniveling few</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>soloing summoners are gutted , either we spike dps for the 30s our tanks live, or root nuke with the mage till it breaks an we both get one shotted</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>complaining about the abilitys of another class may get it nurfed , but what comes around goes around , and I'm SURE I'd rather have my Wizzys root durations back, than snivel about summoner dps</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Someone call the wambulance...we have a wizard in need of some TLC!

[Renpatsu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melchiah wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pebyr wrote:<BR> gotta love the perennial comment of "some summoners are still topping the parse".  well i got news for you.  if their pet dies, they're not topping the parse.  In some zones like Halls of Seeing, i'm recasting my pet a couple of times per fight, on occasion.<BR><BR>I dont see the wizzies running into melee range and swinging at the mob, so i'm not sure comparing them to my pet is very relevant.  Nine times out of ten, my pet dies to an ae that no human dies to.  I am getting better, but now your ability to parse depends very much on your ability to keep your pet alive in a raid.  So anything that drops hp, hurts us immensely, unless of course the developers are looking to change us into a non dps class.  lol.  if they are going to drop the hp, then make the recast timers on vehement gem and intervention lower, so that they can be used when needed to keep the stupid pet alive or fix it so that the silly mage pet doesn't insist on working his crushing skills. <BR> <P>Message Edited by pebyr on <SPAN class=date_text>09-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:16 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>In HoS, I call my caster pet back as soon as he moves, then put him right back into attack mode. It can be done in the middle of a spell, and doesn't take much effort to keep the pets alive. There are also abilities to compensate for the pet being hurt (final int AA ability, consumption, pet heals, direct heals). You can even do less work by just moving the pet when the AoE is about to fire (and that allows for the scout pet to sit in as well).<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Totally agree here. Time the AEs to use intervention, vehement or 'pet back-off' efficiently. E.g. against the Corsolander in Labs, my mage pet stays alive the whole fight, through the crushing AE. In HoS it's the same. A reduction of recast timers for intervention and/or vehement would be too powerful. The mage pet is meant to be a bit difficult in handling, it got the highest damage potential. When you do have to recast a pet several times during a fight, you're doing something wrong.<p>Message Edited by Renpatsu on <span class=date_text>09-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:46 AM</span>

[baddog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> baddog wrote:<BR> <DIV>SOB I wish they'd get rid of raids, or move them to their own servers so the majority of the players wouldn't have their classes ' balanced ' for the sniveling few</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>soloing summoners are gutted , either we spike dps for the 30s our tanks live, or root nuke with the mage till it breaks an we both get one shotted</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>complaining about the abilitys of another class may get it nurfed , but what comes around goes around , and I'm SURE I'd rather have my Wizzys root durations back, than snivel about summoner dps</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Someone call the wambulance...we have a wizard in need of some TLC!<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>.... move along , these aren't the droids your looking for<p>Message Edited by baddog on <span class=date_text>09-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:13 AM</span>

[baddog]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> baddog wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> baddog wrote:<BR> <DIV>SOB I wish they'd get rid of raids, or move them to their own servers so the majority of the players wouldn't have their classes ' balanced ' for the sniveling few</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>soloing summoners are gutted , either we spike dps for the 30s our tanks live, or root nuke with the mage till it breaks an we both get one shotted</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>complaining about the abilitys of another class may get it nurfed , but what comes around goes around , and I'm SURE I'd rather have my Wizzys root durations back, than snivel about summoner dps</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Someone call the wambulance...we have a wizard in need of some TLC!<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> a retired 70 conj enjoying my plate tank , fury , swashie, monk , and sk , with a wizzy an coercer alt on my old sales horse, try sniffin my shorts again :smileyvery-happy:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>the nerve of some people :smileysurprised:<BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by baddog on <span class=date_text>09-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:13 AM</span>

[Shakir10]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wrytched wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a shadowknight, a tank class, or at least a class that's supposed to be able to tank.  The problem I've seen with a few of the pet classes, is that their pets are better than real tanks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Wrytched on <SPAN class=date_text>09-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:39 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is something I see from others who play a tank class as well. </P> <P>I will just be blunt here. I have a lvl 70 Guardian and a lvl 70 Conjuror on two different accounts, Yes I play them at the same time grouped together often. My guardian is pretty poorly geared. My Conj is in all T7 End game fabled gear pretty much whith the exception of 1 or 2 pieces. And end game geared as in gear from DT, Contested, Chel'Drak and so forth. I have Master of my fighter pet as well as all my other buffs. </P> <P>I can tell you flat out that a Conj Fighter pet can not tank nearly as well as any normal Player Character fighter. If you see the Conj or Nec fighter pets out performing the player character fighter then that person playing a fighter might want to switch to a different class. Sorry if that sounds harsh. </P> <P>I think the reason why some people say a Summoner fighter pet can do better at times is that people are not taking into account the summoner themselves. Or rather, the player behind the toon. So if the Fighter Pet is out doing the Player Fighter you should be looking at it as the Summoner is out performing the fighter in a role the fighter is designed for. </P> <P>I don't think this is a problem at all with the summoner, but rather with the person playing the fighter. Again, if a summoner fighter pet is out performing you, then you should really think about switching classes. </P> <P> </P>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shakir1065 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wrytched wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a shadowknight, a tank class, or at least a class that's supposed to be able to tank.  The problem I've seen with a few of the pet classes, is that their pets are better than real tanks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Wrytched on <SPAN class=date_text>09-13-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:39 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is something I see from others who play a tank class as well.</P> <P>I will just be blunt here. I have a lvl 70 Guardian and a lvl 70 Conjuror on two different accounts, Yes I play them at the same time grouped together often. My guardian is pretty poorly geared. My Conj is in all T7 End game fabled gear pretty much whith the exception of 1 or 2 pieces. And end game geared as in gear from DT, Contested, Chel'Drak and so forth. I have Master of my fighter pet as well as all my other buffs.</P> <P>I can tell you flat out that a Conj Fighter pet can not tank nearly as well as any normal Player Character fighter. If you see the Conj or Nec fighter pets out performing the player character fighter then that person playing a fighter might want to switch to a different class. Sorry if that sounds harsh.</P> <P>I think the reason why some people say a Summoner fighter pet can do better at times is that people are not taking into account the summoner themselves. Or rather, the player behind the toon. So if the Fighter Pet is out doing the Player Fighter you should be looking at it as the Summoner is out performing the fighter in a role the fighter is designed for.</P> <P>I don't think this is a problem at all with the summoner, but rather with the person playing the fighter. Again, if a summoner fighter pet is out performing you, then you should really think about switching classes.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Exactly.</P> <P>Whenever I see someone spout the urban legend of summoner pets tanking better than real players, it just makes me chuckle and realize either how pathetic some players play, or how bad some people lie to try to back up their misguided opinions.<BR></P>

[Wrytched]

<P>The pet's agro, haste, dps, and taunt better than most fighters...  not so much their defense, mitigation or avoidance.</P> <P>That's what I have a problem with... a guardian has superior taunting ability, so you may not notice it as much, but crusaders and other fighters have lesser taunt ability.</P> <P>So... rather than being harsh and saying the fighter isn't doing their job, maybe the problem is the conj who is buffing the hell out of their pet and causing it to get the agro.</P> <P>Pets aren't meant to tank... some classes hide behind their pets, and this is to give them the ability to solo.  If anything, a pet should have capped haste, taunt, dps, mitigation, avoidance and hit points significantly lower than any fighter, or at least equivalent to a fighter of equal level with no gear. </P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Pets must have some mitigation or there's no way in hell that they would survive 1 - 2 hits in places like HoF where mobs hit for 8000 points  (and yes, the unmitigated damage is that high because mitigated I still take almost 2000 points  from some mobs)  It would be really nice if SoE would actually post the true stats of pets.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Wrytched on <span class=date_text>09-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:08 AM</span>

[Melchiah]

A SK with Adept I taunts firing both the encounter and single target DoT taunts on pull has more agro built up than the Summoner tank pets can get over the entire fight.As far as dps, if it's beating you even as a Guardian or Paladin, you might want to equip a weapon and be at the keyboard for the fight.

[Shakir10]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wrytched wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The pet's agro, haste, dps, and taunt better than most fighters...  not so much their defense, mitigation or avoidance.</FONT></P> <P>That's what I have a problem with... a guardian has superior taunting ability, so you may not notice it as much, but crusaders and other fighters have lesser taunt ability.</P> <P>Message Edited by Wrytched on <SPAN class=date_text>09-14-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:08 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ok, I can understand where your problem is comming from I think. Let me give you a comparison. When I was playing my guardian as a main, I always lost agro to the monk in my group when grinding XP, I could not figure out why. It wasn't till later that I found out the monk was in his defensive stance giving him more Hate when he attacked. </P> <P>Simmilarly maybe you grouped with a Conj or Necro that had their pet in defensive stance, that would make the pet generate more hate which would cause a fighter to have to taunt a great deal more than they might normally. As for a fighter pets defense, I have parsed it many times. Even in offensive stance the fighter pet DPS is less than what I can spit on a mob for with my Guardian. </P> <P>If your talking about the scout pet or Mage pet DPS, then yeah, of course they can out DPS you <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And fighter pets are similar to regular fighters in that We can't have them in both stances at once. A Summoner has to put their pet in either defensive stance or offensive stance. </P> <P>If you notice a Summoners fighter pet excessively taking agro from you then you should ask that summoner which stance their pet is in. Make sure it's in offensive stance if you don't want it making life more difficult to hold agro</P> <P> </P>