Wizard/Warlock Aggro Transfer

[K'aldar]

Just what the title says pretty much.  I've looked everywhere here and can't find a post, so I was wondering if anyone on test could tell me what % of hate they transfer?  Thanks in advance. <div></div>

[Xede]

<DIV>its been stated by a few people that the transfer is 3% at M1 for the T7 version of the spell.</DIV>

[silentpsycho]

<blockquote><hr>Patrix513 wrote:<DIV>its been stated by a few people that the transfer is 3% at M1 for the T7 version of the spell.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Why not 30% to match scouts?

[Tirga]

<sigh> it's been brough up many times. It's not "scouts" as far as I know it's Swashies and maybe Brigands... <div></div>

[Gertack_v2]

<div><blockquote><hr>Tirga wrote:<sigh> it's been brough up many times. It's not "scouts" as far as I know it's Swashies and maybe Brigands... <div></div><hr></blockquote>Swashbucklers and Assassins.  Rangers have a passive hate reduction buff.</div>

[EvG]

With 30% hate reduction Warlocks would do the same damage assasins do now and that can not be <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div>

[Silphir]

Brigands dont get any hate reduction. They get a 12% hate increase (Ad3) and in return AoE immunity<div></div>

[Captain Apple Darkberry]

<div><blockquote><hr>Silphir wrote:Brigands dont get any hate reduction. They get a 12% hate increase (Ad3) and in return AoE immunity<div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff6600">You mean other than the Beffudle Adversaries...?</font></div>

[EtoilePirate]

<blockquote><hr>Tirga wrote:<sigh> it's been brough up many times. It's not "scouts" as far as I know it's Swashies and maybe Brigands... <div></div><hr></blockquote> At Adept III, Assassins get a transfer that takes 26% of the threat they generate and dumps it on the player on whom the buff is placed.  There are also two "de-taunts" that simply reduce the Assassin's threat.  With judicious use of those three CAs, it's true that a good assassin can <i>almost</i> always avoid stealing aggro.  Given how they're designed towards spike DPS though (thinking of Decapitate, for example), it'd be all aggro all the time without those. I will say that the biggest aggro magnets I've ever seen or played with are Warlocks, though.  And that's in the group of people I play with, all of whom are skilled players who know their classes and their duties.  It probably wouldn't go amiss for them to be able to siphon off a little more threat.<div></div>

[chOgg]

<div><blockquote><hr>EtoilePB wrote:<blockquote><hr>Tirga wrote:<sigh> it's been brough up many times. It's not "scouts" as far as I know it's Swashies and maybe Brigands... <div></div><hr></blockquote> At Adept III, Assassins get a transfer that takes 26% of the threat they generate and dumps it on the player on whom the buff is placed.  There are also two "de-taunts" that simply reduce the Assassin's threat.  With judicious use of those three CAs, it's true that a good assassin can <i>almost</i> always avoid stealing aggro.  Given how they're designed towards spike DPS though (thinking of Decapitate, for example), it'd be all aggro all the time without those. I will say that the biggest aggro magnets I've ever seen or played with are Warlocks, though.  And that's in the group of people I play with, all of whom are skilled players who know their classes and their duties.  It probably wouldn't go amiss for them to be able to siphon off a little more threat.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, my fiancee is a warlock and wants me to scrap my bruiser for a paladin just because of the Amends line.  I suggested she make a wizzie instead.  We compromised by me getting an AE weapon and a bunch of AE achievement abilities and her nuking just a little bit less than she could.Thoral, 53 Bruiser, Mistmoore</div>

[Iseabeil]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> silentpsycho wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Patrix513 wrote:<BR> <DIV>its been stated by a few people that the transfer is 3% at M1 for the T7 version of the spell.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Why not 30% to match scouts?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR><FONT size=3>Murderous Design at Master1 is</FONT> 29%, <SPAN><FONT size=3>Swarthy Disorder is at 27% at Master1 and both are group only, so suddenly wizard and warlock would go from having no hate transfer to having <EM>the</EM> best hate transfer in game <EM>and</EM> the ability to use it crossraid?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Dun get me wrong, both these classes and warlocks in particular need some hate controll of their own, those kind of numbers would unbalance the present mechanics of the game to huge proportions. It would make sorcerors so overpowered in damage potential that the current issue between casters/melee would look silly not to mention what it would do to tanking and holding agro. 3% might be on weak side, but better upping it later then having to lower it, right?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Iseabeil on <span class=date_text>08-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iseabeil wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> silentpsycho wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Patrix513 wrote:<BR> <DIV>its been stated by a few people that the transfer is 3% at M1 for the T7 version of the spell.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Why not 30% to match scouts?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR><FONT size=3>Murderous Design at Master1 is</FONT> 29%, <SPAN><FONT size=3>Swarthy Disorder is at 27% at Master1 and both are group only, so suddenly wizard and warlock would go from having no hate transfer to having <EM>the</EM> best hate transfer in game <EM>and</EM> the ability to use it crossraid?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Dun get me wrong, both these classes and warlocks in particular need some hate controll of their own, those kind of numbers would unbalance the present mechanics of the game to huge proportions. It would make sorcerors so overpowered in damage potential that the current issue between casters/melee would look silly not to mention what it would do to tanking and holding agro. 3% might be on weak side, but better upping it later then having to lower it, right?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Iseabeil on <SPAN class=date_text>08-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:21 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Might be on the weak side? are you kidding? They could have it at 12% right now and I would say it is on the weak side. 3% is a joke. This needs to be upped. Bad.

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV>T7 M1 version = 3% hate transfer is an insult. It's "hey now you sorc have a hate transfer spell, stop whining." It needs to scale up and be at least 15%+ to make a difference in raids.</DIV>

[Sacra Magice]

<DIV>3% completely sucks and is nearly useless. Compared to the 29% that assassins get 3% is insulting to sorcerers (that meaning you have the master I, adept III would be 2% haha).<BR><BR>I guess that SOE do not want to give sorcerers a too good aggro transfer because of raiding situations... a lot of sorcerers transfering aggro to the main tank would mean the main tank not lossing aggro at all...<BR><BR>But what about sorcerers that do not raid? 3% is useless to us... (it also is for raiding sorcerers, that for sure).<BR><BR>My idea would be: Make that spells to be around 20% aggro transfer at least when used in your group while being a lower % if used in another group of a raid situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the descripcion would be somethink like: </DIV> <DIV>- Trasnfer 2x% of your thread to target.</DIV> <DIV>     · If target is in your group.</DIV> <DIV>- Transfer x% of your thread to target.</DIV> <DIV>     · If used outside your group.</DIV>

[Silphir]

<div><blockquote><hr>AngryWhiteDog wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Silphir wrote:Brigands dont get any hate reduction. They get a 12% hate increase (Ad3) and in return AoE immunity<div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff6600">You mean other than the Beffudle Adversaries...?</font></div><hr></blockquote><img src="http://the.rogue.online.fr/images/befuddle_adversaries.png">My bad... </div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Patrix513 wrote:<BR> <DIV>its been stated by a few people that the transfer is 3% at M1 for the T7 version of the spell.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>it doesn't scale either, only the power proc portion </P> <P>even the lower level versions are only 3% hate trasfer at m1. and 2% at app4-adept 3.<BR></P>

[TheStateFish]

<DIV>The new warlock deaggro line doesn't stack with the wizard line from what i'm reading (the spell lines currently don't stack on live either), and with lets say an average of 6 sorcerors on a raid we would need 6 tanks to all benefit fully from the spell. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's a long night if there are 6 tanks doing their uber dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if it would dump hate on anyone you cast it on, then we could at least dump our hate on the assassin and/or swash that are dumping hate on the MT for a total of 6-9% more hate to the tank. Not great, but more noticable than 3%, and all the rest of the sorcerors can get rid of an aditional 3% using the other scouts that can deaggro easily anyway. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, master level should be at least 10%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited for clarity.</DIV><p>Message Edited by TheStateFish on <span class=date_text>08-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:55 PM</span>

[Dragonreal]

I have to agree that 3% is way weak.. I mean a lvl like 10 assassin (prolyl not even 10 I forget what lvl my assassin was when I got the spell) can transfer 5% at APP1.. 10% at m1.. soo a lvl 10 assassin can transfer more hate at app1 than a lvl 70 sorc can at m1? there's something really screwy there.. the sorcs should at the very very least get 10% imo

[KazzySoJaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonrealms wrote:<BR> I have to agree that 3% is way weak.. I mean a lvl like 10 assassin (prolyl not even 10 I forget what lvl my assassin was when I got the spell) can transfer 5% at APP1.. 10% at m1.. soo a lvl 10 assassin can transfer more hate at app1 than a lvl 70 sorc can at m1? there's something really screwy there.. the sorcs should at the very very least get 10% imo<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Be lucky you get a hate transfer at all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>I think they should let you people keep dying because you do not know what aggro control means.</P> <P> </P> <P>press press press fusion click click click, oh man my mommy just called dinner  <----- the life of a wizzy </P>

[CalypsoCGN]

10% - 15% agro transfer wouldn't be overpowered for us warlocks!!! I guess even with these numbers I could easily draw agro, if I would go all out...all the people that say that we should be happy to have 3% have never played a warlock or even a wizzie to it's full potential / power I guess...Warlocks are an AoE based class, Assasins (for example) on the other hand more single target based...now guess who needs a better agro control...YOU can de-agro a lot and tranfer lots of your hate to the tank, but we create more overall "AoE-hate" on the encounters and should be happy with 3% that only 1, I repeat <b><font size="6">ONE</font></b>, sorc can dump on the tank??? Hell no...face it...we need an agro control nearly as good as yours!!!! After all we should be in the T1 dps group as well...and it seems you only fear that we could get close to your parses, if we finally get a USEFULL de-agro tool!!10% -15% would be fine at T7 M1, otherwise the effect won't be noticable at all!!<div></div>

[KazzySoJaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CalypsoCGN wrote:<BR>10% - 15% agro transfer wouldn't be overpowered for us warlocks!!! I guess even with these numbers I could easily draw agro, if I would go all out...all the people that say that we should be happy to have 3% have never played a warlock or even a wizzie to it's full potential / power I guess...<BR><BR>Warlocks are an AoE based class, Assasins (for example) on the other hand more single target based...now guess who needs a better agro control...YOU can de-agro a lot and tranfer lots of your hate to the tank, but we create more overall "AoE-hate" on the encounters and should be happy with 3% that only 1, I repeat <B><FONT size=6>ONE</FONT></B>, sorc can dump on the tank??? Hell no...face it...we need an agro control nearly as good as yours!!!! After all we should be in the T1 dps group as well...and it seems you only fear that we could get close to your parses, if we finally get a USEFULL de-agro tool!!<BR><BR>10% -15% would be fine at T7 M1, otherwise the effect won't be noticable at all!!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You should re-read it, it can be done cross raid on any fighter type, doesn't have to be main tank.</P> <P> *EDIT*</P> <P>Here is the exact quote:  </P> <P>- Accord can be cast on a raid member. If they are a fighter, this transfers a <STRONG><EM><U><FONT size=5>small</FONT></U></EM></STRONG> amount of the wizard's hate toward the fighter.</P> <P>Notice the small, if people would have read this a long time ago they would not have been surprised by the 3% hate transfer, which IMO is more than you should be getting, as you already can stand outside of AoE radius, meaning if you learned how to control your aggro you wouldn't die.</P> <P>That means any fighter class is fair game, but I suggest not putting it on a brawler as we already have enough issues of stealing aggro.</P> <P> </P> <P>2nd Edit - changed aggro radius to AoE  sorry meant AoE was tryign to work and post =P  blah</P> <P>Message Edited by KazzySoJazzy on <SPAN class=date_text>09-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:55 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by KazzySoJazzy on <span class=date_text>09-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:20 AM</span>

[CalypsoCGN]

<div></div><div></div>Outside of agro radius...you must be kidding me...have you ever played a sorc class in the end-game and not just grouped with them?????????????????????I don't think so, if you say that it is more than we should be getting!!!!!It doesn't matter where we stand...we can draw agro from all positions...And 10% would still be a SMALL amount of agro tranfered, if you keep in mind how much agro we are actually creating and how much of this would still be on our side. This is especially hard for warlocks, as we are more of an AoE class...3% is just a punsch in the face of every sorc...And yes, I knew that it would be 3%, but I thought that it would be 3% at the lvl the spells get intoduced first to the classes as app 1 version and not the T7 M1 version...<div></div><p>Message Edited by CalypsoCGN on <span class="date_text">09-03-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:08 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by CalypsoCGN on <span class=date_text>09-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:11 AM</span>

[KazzySoJaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CalypsoCGN wrote:<BR> Outside of agro radius...you must be kidding me...have you ever played a sorc class in the end-game and not just grouped with them?????????????????????<BR>I don't think so, if you say that it is more than we should be getting!!!!!<BR><BR>It doesn't matter where we stand...we can draw agro from all positions...<BR><BR>And 10% would still be a SMALL amount of agro tranfered, if you keep in mind how much agro we are actually creating and how much of this would still be on our side. This is especially hard for warlocks, as we are more of an AoE class...<BR><BR>3% is just a punsch in the face of every sorc...<BR><BR>And yes, I knew that it would be 3%, but I thought that it would be 3% at the lvl the spells get intoduced first to the classes as app 1 version and not the T7 M1 version...<BR> <P>Message Edited by CalypsoCGN on <SPAN class=date_text>09-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:08 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by CalypsoCGN on <SPAN class=date_text>09-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:11 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>First sorry about aggro radius meant AoE, fixed that.</P> <P> </P> <P>Next, either tell your MT to spam aoe taunts so you can go all out (which I doubt he will), or you can monitor what you spam on multiple mobs.  I have been raiding for a bit now and usually every time a wizzy or warlock die it is because they 1) do not know what aggro control is 2) hit fusion ASAP 3) newb, see #1</P> <P> </P> <P>Here is something for you to look @:</P> <P><IMG src="http://www.cruisegazing.com/RPG_Motivational/agrocontrol.jpg"></P> <P> </P>

[TheStateFish]

<blockquote><hr>KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>CalypsoCGN wrote:<BR>Outside of agro radius...you must be kidding me...have you ever played a sorc class in the end-game and not just grouped with them?????????????????????<BR>I don't think so, if you say that it is more than we should be getting!!!!!<BR><BR>It doesn't matter where we stand...we can draw agro from all positions...<BR><BR>And 10% would still be a SMALL amount of agro tranfered, if you keep in mind how much agro we are actually creating and how much of this would still be on our side. This is especially hard for warlocks, as we are more of an AoE class...<BR><BR>3% is just a punsch in the face of every sorc...<BR><BR>And yes, I knew that it would be 3%, but I thought that it would be 3% at the lvl the spells get intoduced first to the classes as app 1 version and not the T7 M1 version...<BR><P>Message Edited by CalypsoCGN on <SPAN class=date_text>09-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:08 AM</SPAN></P><P>Message Edited by CalypsoCGN on <SPAN class=date_text>09-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:11 AM</SPAN><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>First sorry about aggro radius meant AoE, fixed that.</P><P> </P><P>Next, either tell your MT to spam aoe taunts so you can go all out (which I doubt he will), or you can monitor what you spam on multiple mobs.  I have been raiding for a bit now and usually every time a wizzy or warlock die it is because they 1) do not know what aggro control is 2) hit fusion ASAP 3) newb, see #1</P><P> </P><P>Here is something for you to look @:</P><P><IMG src="http://www.cruisegazing.com/RPG_Motivational/agrocontrol.jpg"></P><P> </P><hr></blockquote>First, the MT spams all taunts.. thats their job, but the timer on the aoe taunt is 30 seconds or so isnt it? you're a monk, you should know how much you suck at holding aggro.If you ahve been raiding for a little bit now and notice the wizard and warlock are dieing without being #1 on the parse, then you are already seeing our problem. Pet classes can out parse us without worrying about aggro because they split it with their pets. The scouts can go nuts because they either have major hate dumps or deaggro skills. The sorcerors are truely glass cannons. We can't even do moderate dps without pulling aggro unless we have 3-4 other classes helping us with aggro.I as a warlock am dead at aound 800dps without at least a troub with me and a dirge with the mt. add a swash to the mt, and a coercer's harmonious link on my end and i can maybe do 1200-1400, but only with a troub and coercer in my group, and a dirge, swash, and coercer/assassin in the MT group can i approach 2000dps. We are at the mercy of oter classes in ways a monk can't understand, and our potential is wasted because they haven't the skills to handle our dps. We need a tool to reduce the strain on the rest of the raid while increasing it's efficiency. We need 10% on the new spell lines, minimum, and we need the aggro transfer to work on whoever we cast it on so that all sorcerors on the raid can actually benefit from it. Or, make it 30% but group only so a warlock can jump into the MT group and all sorcerors will still feel the benefit.As for your fun picture, jack is a swash, he could just use his threat position decrease combined with his FD aa and not get a scratch. Then again, with his hate transfer, he wouldn't pull aggro in the first place.

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>TheStateFish wrote:<blockquote><hr>KazzySoJazzy wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>CalypsoCGN wrote:<div></div><div></div>Outside of agro radius...you must be kidding me...have you ever played a sorc class in the end-game and not just grouped with them?????????????????????I don't think so, if you say that it is more than we should be getting!!!!!It doesn't matter where we stand...we can draw agro from all positions...And 10% would still be a SMALL amount of agro tranfered, if you keep in mind how much agro we are actually creating and how much of this would still be on our side. This is especially hard for warlocks, as we are more of an AoE class...3% is just a punsch in the face of every sorc...And yes, I knew that it would be 3%, but I thought that it would be 3% at the lvl the spells get intoduced first to the classes as app 1 version and not the T7 M1 version...<div></div><p>Message Edited by CalypsoCGN on <span class="date_text">09-03-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:08 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by CalypsoCGN on <span class="date_text">09-03-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:11 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>First sorry about aggro radius meant AoE, fixed that.</p><p>Next, either tell your MT to spam aoe taunts so you can go all out (which I doubt he will), or you can monitor what you spam on multiple mobs.  I have been raiding for a bit now and usually every time a wizzy or warlock die it is because they 1) do not know what aggro control is 2) hit fusion ASAP 3) newb, see #1</p><p>Here is something for you to look @:</p><p><img src="http://www.cruisegazing.com/RPG_Motivational/agrocontrol.jpg"></p><hr></blockquote>First, the MT spams all taunts.. thats their job, but the timer on the aoe taunt is 30 seconds or so isnt it? you're a monk, you should know how much you suck at holding aggro.If you ahve been raiding for a little bit now and notice the wizard and warlock are dieing without being #1 on the parse, then you are already seeing our problem. Pet classes can out parse us without worrying about aggro because they split it with their pets. The scouts can go nuts because they either have major hate dumps or deaggro skills. The sorcerors are truely glass cannons. We can't even do moderate dps without pulling aggro unless we have 3-4 other classes helping us with aggro.I as a warlock am dead at aound 800dps without at least a troub with me and a dirge with the mt. add a swash to the mt, and a coercer's harmonious link on my end and i can maybe do 1200-1400, but only with a troub and coercer in my group, and a dirge, swash, and coercer/assassin in the MT group can i approach 2000dps. We are at the mercy of oter classes in ways a monk can't understand, and our potential is wasted because they haven't the skills to handle our dps. We need a tool to reduce the strain on the rest of the raid while increasing it's efficiency. We need 10% on the new spell lines, minimum, and we need the aggro transfer to work on whoever we cast it on so that all sorcerors on the raid can actually benefit from it. Or, make it 30% but group only so a warlock can jump into the MT group and all sorcerors will still feel the benefit.As for your fun picture, jack is a swash, he could just use his threat position decrease combined with his FD aa and not get a scratch. Then again, with his hate transfer, he wouldn't pull aggro in the first place.<hr></blockquote>Jack is a pirate, so according to the ongoing argument pirate = Brig.Next it has been proven that  1 point of dmg = 1 point of hate.  Now having said this, I still make the top of the dps parses and I do not die every other pull.  It is all about control, using debuffs etc at certain times.  Sure you have a lot of aoe spells, just use them wisely, the game isn't about who parses the best, raiding is about choosing the objective, pwning it and getting phat lewts.  You can do this better by controlling the situation through knowledge and proper spell usage, just as every other dps'er without aggro transfer/reduction does.</div>

[Groovyjive]

<P>My 2 cents.</P> <P>Even skilled warlocks are drawing too much aggro. They need a hate transfer. It does not have to be such that skill becomes mute, but clearly they need a little something. </P>

[BSbon]

my level 39 ranger passive deaggro is 39% at M1

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonrealms wrote:<BR> I have to agree that 3% is way weak.. I mean a lvl like 10 assassin (prolyl not even 10 I forget what lvl my assassin was when I got the spell) can transfer 5% at APP1.. 10% at m1.. soo a lvl 10 assassin can transfer more hate at app1 than a lvl 70 sorc can at m1? there's something really screwy there.. the sorcs should at the very very least get 10% imo<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Be lucky you get a hate transfer at all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>I think they should let you people keep dying because you do not know what aggro control means.</P> <P> </P> <P>press press press fusion click click click, oh man my mommy just called dinner  <----- the life of a wizzy </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>LOL<BR>you might wanna suggest soe take away scouts' passive aggro reduction / aggro trasnfer so they doont "press press press click click click" and do 1.5 times wizard's dps -_-

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>QQFatman wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> <hr> </blockquote>LOLyou might wanna suggest soe take away scouts' passive aggro reduction / aggro trasnfer so they doont "press press press click click click" and do 1.5 times wizard's dps -_-<hr></blockquote>Sounds like someone wished they rolled a scout class.</div>

[CalypsoCGN]

Kazzy, it seems to be totally useless to talk with you about this issue, as it seems you don't have any experience with the problem...it seems you haven't ever played a sorc class near the endgame or been raiding with one yourselfe. Therefore you don't have any clue what we are talking about...you just see sorcerers drawing agro and think that we just have to be more carefull...well...we are carefull, but one crit apocalypse can be enough to draw agro in an AoE encounter.Why shouldn't we get a usefull deagro-tool, if we are supposed to be be as high in the parses as asassins, brigs, conjurors necros and so on??? No raidleader wants a sorc that only does half the damage they can, just because they hold back in order not to draw agro...very useless point of yours...Since LU13 Warlocks have suffered from their heavy damage AoE spells and nothing has been done that would solve this issue. Now we get the change to get a usefull tool to de-agro ourselves a bit better and all of a sudden ppl that have never played a sorc class end-game wise come to the threads and complain about this...lol...get real!! If scouts are allowed to de-agro themselfes in such big ammounts then we should be able to do the same!!!! Afterall the scouts would have the same problem that we have, if they wouldn't have such de-agro potential!! And guess what they would cry for then... A tool like this with 10% - 15% de-agro wouldn't be overpowered!Bottom line is...don't bring anything to the boards, if you don't have a clue of what the toppic actually is about...you haven't experienced these things, so you can't say, what we need or should get.And just for the record, I am able not to draw agro and parse 2.5k in certain situations. I even out-dps our assasin from time to time...it all depends what you are fighting! But sorceres shouldn't be in the need of certain classes to get to their full potential!!! We should be able to handle these high numbers with our own agro tools, just as some scouts can!<div></div>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>CalypsoCGN wrote:Kazzy, it seems to be totally useless to talk with you about this issue, as it seems you don't have any experience with the problem...it seems you haven't ever played a sorc class near the endgame or been raiding with one yourselfe. Therefore you don't have any clue what we are talking about...you just see sorcerers drawing agro and think that we just have to be more carefull...well...we are carefull, but one crit apocalypse can be enough to draw agro in an AoE encounter.Why shouldn't we get a usefull deagro-tool, if we are supposed to be be as high in the parses as asassins, brigs, conjurors necros and so on??? No raidleader wants a sorc that only does half the damage they can, just because they hold back in order not to draw agro...very useless point of yours...Since LU13 Warlocks have suffered from their heavy damage AoE spells and nothing has been done that would solve this issue. Now we get the change to get a usefull tool to de-agro ourselves a bit better and all of a sudden ppl that have never played a sorc class end-game wise come to the threads and complain about this...lol...get real!! If scouts are allowed to de-agro themselfes in such big ammounts then we should be able to do the same!!!! Afterall the scouts would have the same problem that we have, if they wouldn't have such de-agro potential!! And guess what they would cry for then... A tool like this with 10% - 15% de-agro wouldn't be overpowered!Bottom line is...don't bring anything to the boards, if you don't have a clue of what the toppic actually is about...you haven't experienced these things, so you can't say, what we need or should get.And just for the record, I am able not to draw agro and parse 2.5k in certain situations. I even out-dps our assasin from time to time...it all depends what you are fighting! But sorceres shouldn't be in the need of certain classes to get to their full potential!!! We should be able to handle these high numbers with our own agro tools, just as some scouts can!<div></div><hr></blockquote>I deal with it all the time I deal dmg also.  You should read up on hate and why it increases.  I often see many sorcs making the top of the parse list consistantly without dying.  The fact is you need to time when you do attacks, and learn which button sequence is best, I know my sequence and the only time I grab aggro is when the tank slacks, or I pull a wizzy and go all out too fast.Oh yes, here read up on this so you can understand how hate generation works.  <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=33898" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=33898</a></div><p>Message Edited by KazzySoJazzy on <span class=date_text>09-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:11 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>LOL<BR>you might wanna suggest soe take away scouts' passive aggro reduction / aggro trasnfer so they doont "press press press click click click" and do 1.5 times wizard's dps -_-<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Sounds like someone wished they rolled a scout class.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>or maybe somebody wishes there was some balance to the agro management system. But of course by the tone of your posts you think everything is balanced, when scouts can have upwards of 150% of the DPS of sorcerors without agro really becoming an issue. </P> <P>What you are basically saying is, better armor, better agro control, better dps, better damage/power ratio = all balanced. Right.....</P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CalypsoCGN wrote:<BR>Kazzy, it seems to be totally useless to talk with you about this issue, as it seems you don't have any experience with the problem...it seems you haven't ever played a sorc class near the endgame or been raiding with one yourselfe. Therefore you don't have any clue what we are talking about...you just see sorcerers drawing agro and think that we just have to be more carefull...well...we are carefull, but one crit apocalypse can be enough to draw agro in an AoE encounter.<BR><BR>Why shouldn't we get a usefull deagro-tool, if we are supposed to be be as high in the parses as asassins, brigs, conjurors necros and so on??? No raidleader wants a sorc that only does half the damage they can, just because they hold back in order not to draw agro...very useless point of yours...<BR><BR>Since LU13 Warlocks have suffered from their heavy damage AoE spells and nothing has been done that would solve this issue. Now we get the change to get a usefull tool to de-agro ourselves a bit better and all of a sudden ppl that have never played a sorc class end-game wise come to the threads and complain about this...lol...get real!! If scouts are allowed to de-agro themselfes in such big ammounts then we should be able to do the same!!!! Afterall the scouts would have the same problem that we have, if they wouldn't have such de-agro potential!! And guess what they would cry for then... A tool like this with 10% - 15% de-agro wouldn't be overpowered!<BR><BR>Bottom line is...don't bring anything to the boards, if you don't have a clue of what the toppic actually is about...you haven't experienced these things, so you can't say, what we need or should get.<BR><BR>And just for the record, I am able not to draw agro and parse 2.5k in certain situations. I even out-dps our assasin from time to time...it all depends what you are fighting! But sorceres shouldn't be in the need of certain classes to get to their full potential!!! We should be able to handle these high numbers with our own agro tools, just as some scouts can!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I deal with it all the time I deal dmg also.  You should read up on hate and why it increases.  I often see many sorcs making the top of the parse list consistantly without dying.  The fact is you need to time when you do attacks, and learn which button sequence is best, I know my sequence and the only time I grab aggro is when the tank slacks, or I pull a wizzy and go all out too fast.<BR><BR><BR>Oh yes, here read up on this so you can understand how hate generation works.  <BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=33898" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=33898</A><BR><BR><BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by KazzySoJazzy on <SPAN class=date_text>09-04-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:11 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have pulled agro with my second spell 10 seconds into a fight. The first spell being the warlocks poison debuff. I find it dificult to believe you know what you are talking about so I assume you think you know what you are talking about. As a warlock, we do not have the tools to properly manage AE agro by ourselves. Infact most often from what I have seen for a warlock to do his optimal dps it takes no less than 3 other classes to give some type of agro management.</P> <P>Can you please point me in the direction of the scout class that requires 3 other classes to help them manage their agro?</P>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cowdenicus wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr> </blockquote> <p><font color="#6633ff" size="5"><u><b>I have pulled agro with my second spell 10 seconds into a fight. The first spell being the warlocks poison debuff.</b></u></font> I find it dificult to believe you know what you are talking about so I assume you think you know what you are talking about. As a warlock, we do not have the tools to properly manage AE agro by ourselves. Infact most often from what I have seen for a warlock to do his optimal dps it takes no less than 3 other classes to give some type of agro management.</p> <p>Can you please point me in the direction of the scout class that requires 3 other classes to help them manage their agro?</p><hr></blockquote>You just answered yourself as to why you took aggro...  I will highlight it for you...  If you read the thread I referenced the game designer answers a similar question <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> about debuffing then doing dmg...</div>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#6633ff size=5><U><B>I have pulled agro with my second spell 10 seconds into a fight. The first spell being the warlocks poison debuff.</B></U></FONT> I find it dificult to believe you know what you are talking about so I assume you think you know what you are talking about. As a warlock, we do not have the tools to properly manage AE agro by ourselves. Infact most often from what I have seen for a warlock to do his optimal dps it takes no less than 3 other classes to give some type of agro management.</P> <P>Can you please point me in the direction of the scout class that requires 3 other classes to help them manage their agro?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>You just answered yourself as to why you took aggro...  I will highlight it for you...  If you read the thread I referenced the game designer answers a similar question <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> about debuffing then doing dmg...<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So how long should all sorcerors wait to cast their 2nd spell? 10 seconds isnt enough, (note this was after the MA call so 20 seconds into the fight now) 15 seconds? 20 seconds? 30 seconds? How many combat arts did your scouts get off in that time? How much damage have your summoners done in this time? </P> <P>Wait, let me guess, this isnt about warlocks, and to a lesser degree wizards right? Looks at topic, oh maybe just maybe it is.</P>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cowdenicus wrote:<div></div> <blockquote></blockquote> <p>So how long should all sorcerors wait to cast their 2nd spell? 10 seconds isnt enough, (note this was after the MA call so 20 seconds into the fight now) 15 seconds? 20 seconds? 30 seconds? How many combat arts did your scouts get off in that time? How much damage have your summoners done in this time? </p> <p>Wait, let me guess, this isnt about warlocks, and to a lesser degree wizards right? Looks at topic, oh maybe just maybe it is.</p><hr></blockquote>Should have played a scout I geuss since you worried about what they do so much.</div>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So how long should all sorcerors wait to cast their 2nd spell? 10 seconds isnt enough, (note this was after the MA call so 20 seconds into the fight now) 15 seconds? 20 seconds? 30 seconds? How many combat arts did your scouts get off in that time? How much damage have your summoners done in this time? </P> <P>Wait, let me guess, this isnt about warlocks, and to a lesser degree wizards right? Looks at topic, oh maybe just maybe it is.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Should have played a scout I geuss since you worried about what they do so much.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Funny thing I have. The only reason I am arguing with you about this, is because you are so blatantly WRONG, and clueless.

[CalypsoCGN]

Kazzy, you are clueless about what the point of this discussion is...you realy don't know anything about this situation...All sorces can easily draw agro mid fight, if a high damage spell crits...NO MATTER WHAT...Warlocks have way bigger problems with this, as half of our high damage spells are AoE based...what the hell do you think we should cast??? Our little 1k single nuke?? You haven't brought up any valid point so far in this discussion and if you don't know what you should say you just reply "Uhhh, someone should have rolled a scout..." Thats basically all you do...a waste of time to try to discuss this whole hate x-fer thing with you!!!Bottomline still is that sorces have to be able to control their agro with their own de-agro tools, just as lots of other classes do...<div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So how long should all sorcerors wait to cast their 2nd spell? 10 seconds isnt enough, (note this was after the MA call so 20 seconds into the fight now) 15 seconds? 20 seconds? 30 seconds? How many combat arts did your scouts get off in that time? How much damage have your summoners done in this time? </P> <P>Wait, let me guess, this isnt about warlocks, and to a lesser degree wizards right? Looks at topic, oh maybe just maybe it is.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Should have played a scout I geuss since you worried about what they do so much.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>why have you started trolling the test forums?</P> <P>what the wizards give you a solid thrashing on the wizzie forums so you decided to pick on people posting about this change on test?</P> <P>The answer to any question about why sorceror agro control is borked is not simply roll another class or wait until the mob is dead before nuking, or have a troub and a coercer and a guardian or paly with agro reduction on you.</P> <P>NO no other class needs 3 forms of hate reduction to do clost to tier 1 dps.  let me say that again so it rings through to you.</P> <P>NO OTHER CLASS NEEDS 3 FORMS OF HATE REDUCTION TO DO CLOSE TO TIER 1 DPS!  </P> <P>dont give me this crappy tank bs either try raiding with a warlock or wizard your puny lvl 30 wizard doesn't even cut you having experience in this matter.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Splatterpunk28]

3% is very, very sad.  That means the the tank is sucking up the hate for 30 in 1000dmg, lol.And to those that do not understand <i>because they do not play higher level sorcerors </i>... think about this for a moment.  You're on a raid and a multiple encounter is pulled, let's say 8mobs.  Now, these mobs are going to be dead in about 15seconds, more than likely less than that.  How many dps classes can use their high damage AoE abilities/spells and not die within these 15seconds?  All of them EXCEPT sorcerors.  Hmph.  It's not about aggro management, it's about doing what your class is supposed to do.  If you have to wait 10sec to cast your spell, guess what?  The mobs are already dead and you just stood there 'managing aggro', I mean not doing anything, I mean ... huh?   Yeah.  I guess you can cast something mild and hope for the best like ... trailing behinds fighters, scouts and other mages on the parser.The fact is that while all the other dps classes (and non-alike!) can use their best abilities, regular and AA-wise, sorcerors cannot except in very special circumstances.  Sure IF we invest all our AA's into decreasing hate, equip ourselves with hate decreases proc gear, luck out and a troubadour, paladin and chanter is in group, then MAYBE, just maybe if we are well paced and have a great tank we can cast our spells, but most likely we can just watch everyone else spam their spells/abilities while we count to 5 between each nuke/dot and still cringe after hitting it.  Sorry, it isn't about skill.  It's about investing all your time into compensating for a serious issue that is out of our hands.  3% hate transfer is not the answer, not even close.<div></div>

[CalypsoCGN]

It isn't as bad as you just described it punk...normally I can go all out, if I have amends OR a Troub...thats enough de-agro on me to go all out and normally parse in the top 3...BUT if one of these classes can't make it to a raid because of RL stuff I'm screwed and will die on alomost every AoE spell that crits (sometimes it doesn't even have to be a crit)! Fact is that socerers have to rely on lots of things to be able to push their damage further. We need a good tank that knows that he has to taunt every mob in the encounter, agro tranfer from an assasin to the tank (assasin just as an example), and at lease a troub or amends on the sorc plus maybe synergism or a coercer in group (although that would be a waste, if you have a troub already)...Only if these things are set a sorc can go all out without the fear of drawing agro in just a few seconds...and this is not the way it is supposed to be...it just can't be true that we are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed, if there is no troub / amends (for just one sorc) in our group, but this is fact!!!! Other dps'ers can happily smash the mob with all they've got and deagro themselfes in a no-time...Now we finaly get an agro x-fer, BUT it doesn't stack (at least make the wizzard and warlock version stack!!!!!) and only transfers a not noticable amount of hate to the fighter...well, the idea behind this spell is great and I am very happy to see that the devs FINALY are trying to work on our classes, but these 3% aren't enough...<div></div>

[BlackAdderDr]

I just wanted to agree with illusive here.  I have a 60 Ranger and a raiding 70 Wizard.  He is absolutely correct, no other DPS class in this game needs 3 forms of agro reduction to do T1 DPS.  I have yet to this day been on a raid with 3 forms, only 2  (Coercer/Troub) or (Coercer/Swash).  Anytime I do above 1500dps, and sometimes less than that I draw agro.  It bothers me that I have to hold back, and 3% agro transfer is laughable as the 2.5% pet, combined they wont make a difference in spike damage that sorcerers do.  The fact is that Most wizard spells are spikey in nature, our ball of lava averages about 4.5 - 5k on raids... thats every 12 seconds (recovery/cast) folks.   I have managed to get above 2k DPS and yes I drew agro, I did it to see what I was capable of instead of plodding out ~1k  DPS constantly.  This needs to be raised to give us a useful tool on raids as it is now anomalism is about as useful on a raid as Corona is ( dont know any MT group wizards ).  -Acelia 70th Wizard of Nektulos<div></div>

[Pins]

The tank isn't just sucking up 3% aggro, you're now at 97% aggro, and the tank has that extra 3% aggro from you, which means you end up with a netgain of 6.1% more-aggro required for you to peel the mob.Which, considering(most often if you are in a properly optimized raid), you'll have a bit more de-aggro on you, and more aggro on the tank, which should help you out. Think of it this way, 3% is better than 0% isn't it? Not to mention, now you can use your spell cross-raid. Can anybody else increase the aggro of the MT cross-raid? Not to mention, now you can actually use your on-hit give power spell on the tank who's getting hit, and it costs 0 concentration slots. Yah, it's only 3%, but it's still another tool in your arsenal for hate(although the arsenal is fairly weak). But, hey, who knows what you'll get in EoF for AAs.

[HomeChicken]

<DIV>fact is they are seeing that sorcs need agro management, but instead of giving us somethign that is worth a @#)(!$#  they give us 3%? total 6% added? that is just a waste of my time, if it stacked with all other sorcs on the same target, that wouldnt be bad, 2-3 sorcs in a raid would make enough of a difference i think, or maybe up it to 5%+ (5% agro lost 5% agro gained for the tank, not great, but for the fact its cross raid i would deal with it), fact of the matter is 3% is just silly, its like them adding 3-5 points of damage to the total amount of damage an ice nova can do, neat so instead of doin 17871 with IN we would do 17874!!! sure 3% is an *upgrade* over what it currently was, but jeeze its really really really lame to have to stack groups with deagro on top of deagro just for the sorcs to not be suicide bombers in raids...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[CalypsoCGN]

Hmmm...as for my part we don't even have a weak arsenal of agro-tools...they are all worthless!!!! Name me one sorc that uses the pre-casted de-agro spell on raids...seriously, you loose 2 seconds everytime you pre-cast it, while everyone is auto attacking and using their 0.5 - 2 second CA's...And the other 2 de-agro spells are so useless they aren't even in my hotbar anymore for raiding...I mean com'on...M1 lvl of the 2 AoE de-agro spells is about 600 - 800 on very mob they hit...how should that ever take the agro off of us, if a critical apocalypse can hit for about 3k a tick on every mob??? These 2 spells are utterly useless...again it was a very nice idea to give us an AoE de-agro tool, but the numbers should be equal to the de-agro spells healers get in T7...I mean the devs could even raise the reuse timers of our two spells to be en-par with the de-agros of the healers...And I still think 3% is doing nothing...with our AA pet we get 2.5% de-agro and there is no sorc that would say that he / she feels a difference when the pet is summoned...combine the pet with the new spell and you get 5.5%, still not enough!!! And I know what i'm speaking about...when we started raiding T7 we had some problems getting an active raiding troub, so I had LOTS of problems with the agro...and as a result I respeccrd to the INT line (de-agro line) and maxed out the passive de-agro. It didn't help at all...still my AoE spells created way too much hate to be coutered by the passive de-agro!Now that we have a troub on almost every raid I'm safe (more or less<span>:smileytongue:</span>) because I gain ~40% less hate and this is noticable...<div></div>

[HomeChicken]

<DIV>seriously, who thought up 3%? may as well have been 1%, if your going to give us a hate transfer that is just short of worthless, might as well make it totally worthless</DIV> <DIV>i think this is just an insult to wizards / warlocks everywhere unless this is either beefed up a bit or make it so all the sorcs can stack it on the same tank to actually add up to a number that would effect ANYTHING</DIV>

[SalBlu]

<P>I'll be trying this out tonight after putting the spell on Yunke, or Guardian MT.  I can guarantee you that if and when I crit for 20k off of an Ice Nova mid-fight, i'm going to go down... hard.  Even when using our hate reducer, Concussive, I STILL draw aggro from our high hate gaining spells.  What's the use in having these high damage spells if we can never cast them unless we have a Pally casting Ammends, a Troub, and Coercer in the group just to maintain our threat level.</P> <P>3%, total 6% reduction is a slap in the face.  It's a punch in the face for Warlocks who already suffer from the problems associated to their AE damage.  I look at my Assassin who has hate transfer that totals over 25% and I have to wonder why it is that the Sorceror class is getting shafted in this manner.  First they hit us with a 3 second cast spell de-aggro, then we get this.  It really makes me happy that i'm going to be putting my Wizard aside soon.</P>

[HomeChicken]

<DIV>sat down and did some quick and sloppy math on different classes agro management compared to ours, we really are getting the shaft, before and after this update</DIV> <DIV>its on the spells / combat arts forums if anyone wants to look it over and see if i got anything wrong</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:The tank isn't just sucking up 3% aggro, you're now at 97% aggro, and the tank has that extra 3% aggro from you, which means you end up with a netgain of 6.1% more-aggro required for you to peel the mob.Which, considering(most often if you are in a properly optimized raid), you'll have a bit more de-aggro on you, and more aggro on the tank, which should help you out. Think of it this way, 3% is better than 0% isn't it? Not to mention, now you can use your spell cross-raid. Can anybody else increase the aggro of the MT cross-raid? Not to mention, now you can actually use your on-hit give power spell on the tank who's getting hit, and it costs 0 concentration slots. Yah, it's only 3%, but it's still another tool in your arsenal for hate(although the arsenal is fairly weak). But, hey, who knows what you'll get in EoF for AAs.<hr></blockquote>Amen someone with some sense has posted, thanks pinski, nice to see im not the only higher end raider thinking like this.EoF will change it all imo, and to show how much me and pinski think alike [Removed for Content]...  And just to show how much we think alike I posted this yesterday <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=24&message.id=20818#M20818" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=24&message.id=20818#M20818</a>Just about the same message has been passed along, anyways <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>HomeChicken wrote:<div>sat down and did some quick and sloppy math on different classes agro management compared to ours, we really are getting the shaft, before and after this update</div> <div>its on the spells / combat arts forums if anyone wants to look it over and see if i got anything wrong</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>You forget other things sorcs get over scouts, the ability to solo better, which you also have to keep in mind.  Sorcs may be tier 1 dps, but I do not think that is true for raids.  You guys will get the 6% effective hate reduction plus what your pet gives.</div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HomeChicken wrote:<BR> <DIV>sat down and did some quick and sloppy math on different classes agro management compared to ours, we really are getting the shaft, before and after this update</DIV> <DIV>its on the spells / combat arts forums if anyone wants to look it over and see if i got anything wrong</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>You forget other things sorcs get over scouts, the ability to solo better, which you also have to keep in mind.  Sorcs may be tier 1 dps, but I do not think that is true for raids.  You guys will get the 6% effective hate reduction plus what your pet gives.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>do you raid with only one sorceror?</P> <P>I dont think anyone does.</P> <P>since only ONE person gets to cast this on the MT only ONE person gets the pre-conconcted notion that its a 6% agro reduction (3% to mt 3% self total 6%)</P> <P>since they do not stack casting it on a non MT fighter will yeild the other sorcerors the appropriate 3% hate reduction.</P> <P>I suppose your someone who would try to argue that since rangers solo well and do well in groups they shouldn't be boosted in raiding.  </P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HomeChicken wrote:<BR> <DIV>sat down and did some quick and sloppy math on different classes agro management compared to ours, we really are getting the shaft, before and after this update</DIV> <DIV>its on the spells / combat arts forums if anyone wants to look it over and see if i got anything wrong</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>You forget other things sorcs get over scouts, the ability to solo better, which you also have to keep in mind.  Sorcs may be tier 1 dps, but I do not think that is true for raids.  You guys will get the 6% effective hate reduction plus what your pet gives.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So since monks get to solo so much better than any other tank class, they should be nerfed in dps and tanking abilities and any useful raiding abilities?

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> KazzySoJazzy wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> HomeChicken wrote: <div>sat down and did some quick and sloppy math on different classes agro management compared to ours, we really are getting the shaft, before and after this update</div> <div>its on the spells / combat arts forums if anyone wants to look it over and see if i got anything wrong</div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote>You forget other things sorcs get over scouts, the ability to solo better, which you also have to keep in mind.  Sorcs may be tier 1 dps, but I do not think that is true for raids.  You guys will get the 6% effective hate reduction plus what your pet gives.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>do you raid with only one sorceror?</p> <p>I dont think anyone does.</p> <p>since only ONE person gets to cast this on the MT only ONE person gets the pre-conconcted notion that its a 6% agro reduction (3% to mt 3% self total 6%)</p> <p>since they do not stack casting it on a non MT fighter will yeild the other sorcerors the appropriate 3% hate reduction.</p> <p>I suppose your someone who would try to argue that since rangers solo well and do well in groups they shouldn't be boosted in raiding.  </p><hr></blockquote>I raid usually with 2-3 sorcs, and only one of them dies often and it is usually because he cannot control his aggro.  Also the person who has it casted on the MT will help the entire raid not just the sorc who casted it.  The 3% on each dot tick, each dd, etc... will add up and I think the devs understand this, which is why the % is so low.</div>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cowdenicus wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> KazzySoJazzy wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> HomeChicken wrote: <div>sat down and did some quick and sloppy math on different classes agro management compared to ours, we really are getting the shaft, before and after this update</div> <div>its on the spells / combat arts forums if anyone wants to look it over and see if i got anything wrong</div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote>You forget other things sorcs get over scouts, the ability to solo better, which you also have to keep in mind.  Sorcs may be tier 1 dps, but I do not think that is true for raids.  You guys will get the 6% effective hate reduction plus what your pet gives.</div> <hr> </blockquote>So since monks get to solo so much better than any other tank class, they should be nerfed in dps and tanking abilities and any useful raiding abilities?<hr></blockquote>I believe you should take your own advice on this one, since you know so much about the game as you claim.  I believe you once told me to know what I am talking about before I speak, well I know a few guards and zerks who can equal a brawler in DPS yet they still have way more mit etc, but anyways please quit derailing the topic we are supposed to be talking about wiz/warlocks here.</div>

[TheStateFish]

<blockquote><hr>KazzySoJazzy wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KazzySoJazzy wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>HomeChicken wrote:<div>sat down and did some quick and sloppy math on different classes agro management compared to ours, we really are getting the shaft, before and after this update</div><div>its on the spells / combat arts forums if anyone wants to look it over and see if i got anything wrong</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>You forget other things sorcs get over scouts, the ability to solo better, which you also have to keep in mind.  Sorcs may be tier 1 dps, but I do not think that is true for raids.  You guys will get the 6% effective hate reduction plus what your pet gives.</div><hr></blockquote><p>do you raid with only one sorceror?</p><p>I dont think anyone does.</p><p>since only ONE person gets to cast this on the MT only ONE person gets the pre-conconcted notion that its a 6% agro reduction (3% to mt 3% self total 6%)</p><p>since they do not stack casting it on a non MT fighter will yeild the other sorcerors the appropriate 3% hate reduction.</p><p>I suppose your someone who would try to argue that since rangers solo well and do well in groups they shouldn't be boosted in raiding.  </p><hr></blockquote>I raid usually with 2-3 sorcs, and only one of them dies often and it is usually because he cannot control his aggro.  Also the person who has it casted on the MT will help the entire raid not just the sorc who casted it.  The 3% on each dot tick, each dd, etc... will add up and I think the devs understand this, which is why the % is so low.</div><hr></blockquote>You still don't get it. 3% of each dot tick and each dd is next to nothing. what is 3% hate of a 200dps dot that ticks every 3 seconds, or a 250dmg dot that ticks every 2 seconds. It's nothing. What is 3% of a 5k nuke, a 10k nuke, a 30k nuke. Nothing worth mentioning compared to the nuke itself. Monks are one of the best solo classes in the game, sorcerors have to pick their targets very carefully and can't solo every named in SoS as a monk can. We are meant to be tier 1 dps on raids, that is the only place the tier system matters. We can not use our spells because the hate system as it currently is does not allow us to do so under normal circumstances. Sorcerors are the only class that have this problem. This problem is bigger than 3%/6%. This problem is not that the sorcerors don't control their aggro, but that no matter how hard they try not to, they will pull aggro.A monk has no business in this thread, and your only usefulness here is keeping the thread bumped so that the devs might read the posts made by those of us with real insight into the class; those of us with experience that want to better our class/subclasses.My guild gets to try out the new spells tonight, and the only good thing that will happen tonight is that it will seem like we died less at the end of the night because our repair bills won't be as high.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HomeChicken wrote:<BR> <DIV>sat down and did some quick and sloppy math on different classes agro management compared to ours, we really are getting the shaft, before and after this update</DIV> <DIV>its on the spells / combat arts forums if anyone wants to look it over and see if i got anything wrong</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>You forget other things sorcs get over scouts, the ability to solo better, which you also have to keep in mind.  Sorcs may be tier 1 dps, but I do not think that is true for raids.  You guys will get the 6% effective hate reduction plus what your pet gives.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>do you raid with only one sorceror?</P> <P>I dont think anyone does.</P> <P>since only ONE person gets to cast this on the MT only ONE person gets the pre-conconcted notion that its a 6% agro reduction (3% to mt 3% self total 6%)</P> <P>since they do not stack casting it on a non MT fighter will yeild the other sorcerors the appropriate 3% hate reduction.</P> <P>I suppose your someone who would try to argue that since rangers solo well and do well in groups they shouldn't be boosted in raiding.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I raid usually with 2-3 sorcs, and only one of them dies often and it is usually because he cannot control his aggro.  Also the person who has it casted on the MT will help the entire raid not just the sorc who casted it.  The 3% on each dot tick, each dd, etc... will add up and I think the devs understand this, which is why the % is so low.<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>thanks for dodging my questions you seem to do that often, not just for me but for everyone(in this thread alone there are quite a few).  I'm guessing your a politician in training.</P> <P> </P> <P>the only GOOD thing that comes out of this is the MT will have a tougher time going oop with a + power proc on being hit.</P> <P>even a 1400 zone dps wizard (par for the course) 3% is transferring to the MT roughly 42 dps, which means the entire raid dps gets to go from 15k to 15042 dps.  wow thats a shocker I mean its so overpowered that it should just be removed.</P> <P>I mean who would of thought that 42 dps could save the raid.  I bet a [Removed for Content] damage sheild potion would transfer more hate than this 3% would.</P>

[HomeChicken]

<DIV>man i know 42 extra hate gain would make it so i would never die</DIV> <DIV>ever</DIV> <DIV>i always end up pulling agro casting fire chamber or scorch <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV> <DIV>kazzy, 3% is pathetic, if you dont have anything productive to say, dont say anything at all, we dont need a monk in this post saying how this is super balanced. you have been out tryin to get your post count up on these sorc agro transfer threads and you arent bringing anything to the table, so please shhhhh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this needs to be at LEAST doubled to make it ever add up to anything worth noticing, and make it so warlocks / wizards spell stacks on a target</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[KazzySoJaz]

<div><blockquote><hr>HomeChicken wrote:<div>man i know 42 extra hate gain would make it so i would never die</div> <div>ever</div> <div>i always end up pulling agro casting fire chamber or scorch <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div>kazzy, 3% is pathetic, if you dont have anything productive to say, dont say anything at all, we dont need a monk in this post saying how this is super balanced. you have been out tryin to get your post count up on these sorc agro transfer threads and you arent bringing anything to the table, so please shhhhh</div> <div> </div> <div>this needs to be at LEAST doubled to make it ever add up to anything worth noticing, and make it so warlocks / wizards spell stacks on a target</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Nothing to the table?  Only because I do not whine about it?  Discussion is healthy if you don't like what I have to say from my viewpoint you can go moan elsewhere or in pm's.  Anyways back on topic.  I am working on my alt sorc right now should have him to 70 pretty soon, just so I can be an expert @ whining.</div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HomeChicken wrote:<BR> <DIV>man i know 42 extra hate gain would make it so i would never die</DIV> <DIV>ever</DIV> <DIV>i always end up pulling agro casting fire chamber or scorch <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV> <DIV>kazzy, 3% is pathetic, if you dont have anything productive to say, dont say anything at all, we dont need a monk in this post saying how this is super balanced. you have been out tryin to get your post count up on these sorc agro transfer threads and you arent bringing anything to the table, so please shhhhh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this needs to be at LEAST doubled to make it ever add up to anything worth noticing, and make it so warlocks / wizards spell stacks on a target</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nothing to the table?  Only because I do not whine about it?  Discussion is healthy if you don't like what I have to say from my viewpoint you can go moan elsewhere or in pm's.  Anyways back on topic.  I am working on my alt sorc right now should have him to 70 pretty soon, just so I can be an expert @ <STRONG>Dieing</STRONG>.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>fixed it for you.<BR>

[CalypsoCGN]

<blockquote><div><blockquote><hr></blockquote>Nothing to the table?  Only because I do not whine about it?  Discussion is healthy if you don't like what I have to say from my viewpoint you can go moan elsewhere or in pm's.  Anyways back on topic.  I am working on my alt sorc right now should have him to 70 pretty soon, just so I can be an expert @ whining.</div><hr></blockquote>But to discuss with someone who has no insight into the whole topic is useless too... We raided yesterday and I had my master version on the MT. We tried the set-up with me in the MT group (Paly MT), I had his Amends and he had my hate x-fer. Guess what...I was still able to draw agro, if I used catalyst + freehand + apocalypse mid fight, athough I gave out MT a good chance to build up agro (I did hold back a bit and just used my DoT's and casted my 2 proc spells and started of with my AoE nuke to give the Paly some AoE-hate from me).A big cheers to our new agro x-fer <span>:smileyindifferent: seems to be as <strike>powerfull</strike> useless as out other de-agro tools...well...not THAT useless</span>.<div></div>

[SalBlu]

<P>Just so you all know, this spell is 2% transfer at Adept III, not 3%.  I also tested this out thoroughly last night in our Lyceum raid and the transfer is pathetic.</P> <P>1) It will not stack with other Sorceror transfer spells.  YES, this means that a Wizard and a Warlock cannot put the spell on the same person.</P> <P>2) I had a Troubador and Pally Ammends on me last night, parsing about 1200-1300 damage and was steal pulling aggro if I let loose.  I was only able to cast Fusion twice in the zone having allowed a good 30+ seconds of hate gain only to draw aggro on a 22k+ crit, and die in one swat.  After those deaths I gave up on the spell for the zone.  Yes i was using Concussive and Cease as well and it was not helping.</P> <P>3) Our Warlock had just as many deaths last night as any other night.  Her 2% transfer to the main tank didnt help worth beans.</P> <P>2% at Adept III is a frickin joke. </P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SalBluee wrote:<BR> <P>Just so you all know, this spell is 2% transfer at Adept III, not 3%.  I also tested this out thoroughly last night in our Lyceum raid and the transfer is pathetic.</P> <P>1) It will not stack with other Sorceror transfer spells.  YES, this means that a Wizard and a Warlock cannot put the spell on the same person.</P> <P>2) I had a Troubador and Pally Ammends on me last night, parsing about 1200-1300 damage and was steal pulling aggro if I let loose.  I was only able to cast Fusion twice in the zone having allowed a good 30+ seconds of hate gain only to draw aggro on a 22k+ crit, and die in one swat.  After those deaths I gave up on the spell for the zone.  Yes i was using Concussive and Cease as well and it was not helping.</P> <P>3) Our Warlock had just as many deaths last night as any other night.  Her 2% transfer to the main tank didnt help worth beans.</P> <P>2% at Adept III is a frickin joke. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>so far it seems this does not stack with amends, another wizard tested this in the forums and for what ever reason accord when placed on a fighter cancelles amends's hate siphon.</P> <P>also debuff's were ninja boosted wizards with m1 rending icicles got about a 18% boost in dps (previously buff gave 5.5% boost now it gives roughly 23% boost.)</P>

[Oakum]

<P>As I have read this thread and from observations of friends and guild wizards and talking to them, I believe sorcerers do have an aggro problem and 3 percent more may not do anything to fix it. </P> <P>From what I have seen though, the problem is that the big nukes/dots are too much at one time if cast too early. A 10 or 30 thousand point nuke or dot before the tank has built up that much hate doesn't work and the small nukes don't do enough damage by themselves unless very well played to place sorcerers above other raid T-1 DPS like assasins and summoners. Assassins have a good hate transfer which lets them use their bigger attacks as they come up and summoners damage is in  low enough increments that the tank can keep up with the hate if they hold back a little at the beginning normally.  </P> <P>Now IF sorcerors should be above all others in raid damage parses, and that is a really big if since rangers who are supposed to be T1 also and have to buy their dps with poisons and arrows are generally below them now, then I see two ways of fixing it. </P> <P>1) Bigger hate transfer.</P> <P>2) smaller big nukes and bigger small nukes so that they can just hold back some like summoners do in the start of a fight and not pull aggro with too much instant hate with their big nukes/dots. Bigger "small" nukes would up the over all damage.</P> <P>The problem with hate transfer has been listed as basically meaning the tank would never be in danger of lose aggro if its big enough to help with the perceived agro problem. That the dev's have long stated should never happen. All dps classes should have to watch their aggro to some extent. The assasin will not use their biggest attack as the first attack and expect the tank to keep aggro and the conjurer can plane shift at the start of a named fight. Sorcerers should not be able to fire off their big nuke/dot at the start of the fight or go all out the whole time and expect not to get aggro.</P> <P>With the last in mind, the best answer to your problem may be number two with a rescaling of the damaging in the nukes/dots. Then only two classes would have to be changed and not every class that has a hate tranfer/reducer ect. </P> <P>Of course some people like the "coolness factor" of a 10 or 30 thousand point and would rather lose some overall dps then have it reduced. Some do play sorcerers cause they consider them to be fun and not just to be the only number one on a raid parse. </P> <P>Not saying that is the case of all those who posted here so don't get me wrong. Wardens can be out DPS'ed by Defilers, Inquisitors and Fury's and according to the tier structure wardens are supposed to be equal to Fury's and above the other priest and needs to be adjusted too but I don't think it will ever be done. I like being a warden even with that imbalance and would like to see it fixed and I am sure most sorcerers are the same with the aggro problem. </P> <P> </P>

[wizard]

<div></div>just a side note: if a warlock/wizzy try to duo with a paladin, the new buff doesnt stack with amends, henceforth, you cant equip the buff anymore on the pally, since amends > 3% <div></div><p>Message Edited by wizardpc on <span class=date_text>09-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:47 PM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>wizardpc wrote:<div></div>just a side note: if a warlock/wizzy try to duo with a paladin, the new buff doesnt stack with amends, henceforth, you cant equip the buff anymore on the pally, since amends > 3% <div></div><p>Message Edited by wizardpc on <span class=date_text>09-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:47 PM</span><hr></blockquote> Welcome to stacking multiple hate transfers = broken since LU13.

[MilkToa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> wizardpc wrote:<BR> just a side note:<BR><BR>if a warlock/wizzy try to duo with a paladin, the new buff doesnt stack with amends, henceforth, you cant equip the buff anymore on the pally, since amends > 3%<BR> <P>Message Edited by wizardpc on <SPAN class=date_text>09-07-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:47 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Welcome to stacking multiple hate transfers = broken since LU13.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>SOE obviously knew this but still gave it to sorcerers just compounding the problem. This just seems like the wrong way to deal with the aggro problem.</P> <P> </P>

[Splatterpunk28]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Oakum wrote:<div></div>Now IF sorcerors should be above all others in raid damage parses, and that is a really big if since rangers who are supposed to be T1 also and have to buy their dps with poisons and arrows are generally below them now, then I see two ways of fixing it.  <font color="#ffff00">Ranger and Assassin imbalanced dps is a separate issue altogether.  Everyone knows the famous dps pyramid laid out by MG and it was Wizard/Warlock, Ranger/Assasin in T1.</font> <p>1) Bigger hate transfer.  </p><p><font color="#ffff00">-I'm not sure this is the ideal answer, but if this is their only solution or 'quick fix' -- it does need to be much more.</font></p> <p>2) smaller big nukes and bigger small nukes so that they can just hold back some like summoners do in the start of a fight and not pull aggro with too much instant hate with their big nukes/dots. Bigger "small" nukes would up the over all damage.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">-I don't think this is the answer.  We are burst dps, just as rangers/assassins are burst dps.  They have better hate transfers than we do so it isn't about changing up how we deal dps, the problem is how we can manage it.  I think #1 or #3 are the better choices.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">3)  Change up our concussive, vulian and boon lines so that it is in balance with other high dps classes as far as transferring and/or just evading hate.  There should be a buff that's useful for the tank (better version of boon), a buff maybe for us (make concussive a self buff or a longer duration spell similar to corrupt gift/netherous realm) and a short nuke type of de-aggro (better version of vulian).</font></p><p>Wardens can be out DPS'ed by Defilers, Inquisitors and Fury's and according to the tier structure wardens are supposed to be equal to Fury's and above the other priest and needs to be adjusted too but I don't think it will ever be done. I like being a warden even with that imbalance and would like to see it fixed and I am sure most sorcerers are the same with the aggro problem.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I understand that is imbalanced and unfair, but that isn't even comparable.  A Warden's main function is to heal, those are secondary imbalances.  Our main goal is to be dps, that's our primary reason to be invited to raids/groups.  A better comparison would be that without the proper classes to fix how broke you are, a Warden can be out healed by a Paladin.  So, yeah, that's a joke.</font></p></blockquote></div><p>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <span class=date_text>09-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:47 AM</span>

[Ri]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I haven't actually seen anyone do a side-by-side of who has what, so thought I'd put one together. . .unfortunatly I wanted to compare Master Is to Master Is, but was unable to find screenshots.  If someone could provide the numbers with the recast times, would help out.Wiz:Cease:Anomalism: 3% Aggro TransferConcussive: 1470 - 2450 every 25sWarlock:Vulian Nullification:Boon of the Damned: 3% Aggro TransferConcussive: 1470 - 2450 every 25sAssassin:Surveillance: 1776 - 1960 every 30sElude: 960 - 1600 every 20sMurderous Design: 29% Aggro TransferPoison deaggro (Ignorant Bliss line) : 15% chance to proc -1203 hate (Grandmasters Ignorant Bliss)Concealment :  -40% Hate Gain for 7s every 1 minRanger:Surveillance: 1776 - 1960 every 30sElude: 960 - 1600 every 20sPrimal Agility: Decreases Hate Gain by 41%Poison deaggro (Ignorant Bliss line): 15% chance to proc -1203 hate (Grandmasters Ignorant Bliss)These are all the spells that these classes have to directly lose aggro.  Spells are in order that correspond to their sister classes spell (eg: Anomalism/Boon of the Damned). In addition to these, Rangers have Confounding Arrow which increases the hate gain of the next person hit (+30% for 10seconds every 30s) as well as Hawk Dive which siphons hate from every non-fighter in the group (Hate increase not listed on the spell).Maybe this'll help put things a little better into order of where each class stands.Edit: Removed Mail of Frost and Nullmail from list as these no longer reduce aggro.  Added Concealment for assassins. Added numbers for scout spells and mage spells.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Rish on <span class=date_text>09-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:19 AM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Rish wrote:<BR>I haven't actually seen anyone do a side-by-side of who has what, so thought I'd put one together. . .unfortunatly I wanted to compare Master Is to Master Is, but was unable to find screenshots.  If someone could provide the numbers with the recast times, would help out.<BR><BR>Wiz:<BR>Cease<BR>Anomalism<BR>Concussive<BR><BR>Warlock:<BR>Vulian Nullification<BR>Boon of the Damned<BR>Concussive<BR><BR>Assassin:<BR>Surveillance<BR>Elude<BR>Murderous Design<BR>Poison deaggro (Ignorant Bliss line)</P> <P><STRONG><EM>concealment</EM></STRONG></P> <P><BR><BR>Ranger:<BR>Surveillance<BR>Elude<BR>Primal Agility<BR>Poison deaggro (Ignorant Bliss line)<BR><BR><BR>These are all the spells that these classes have to directly lose aggro.  Spells are in order that correspond to their sister classes spell (eg: Anomalism/Boon of the Damned).  In addition to these, Wizards have Mail of Frost and Warlocks have Nullmail.  According to the spell description, aggro is lost when hit.  Rangers have Confounding Arrow which increases the hate gain of the next person hit as well as Hawk Dive which siphons hate from every non-fighter in the group.<BR><BR>Maybe this'll help put things a little better into order of where each class stands.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>mail of frost no longer de-agro's.  that was changed a few lu's ago.<p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>09-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:14 PM</span>