New Timed Tradeskill Writs (Rush Orders) on Test

[Dymus]

<DIV>With the update to test the new timed tradeskill writs should be in.  You can find the <Work Order Foreman> and the <City Record Keeper> within the tradeskill instances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Steps for the Rush Orders</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- You will need to be level 20 and have chosen your specialty before the work order foreman will give you one of the rush orders.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- After getting a work order from the foreman then you need to speak to the city record keeper (Often standing right next to, or very close to the foreman).  This will give the details on what the work order is asking you to make and will start the timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- If the timer runs out before all the items have been created it will revert the quest back to the step where you need to speak to the record keeper again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Finishing all items within the time limit will direct you to the foreman for your reward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- No matter where these are done they will award coin.  If you are a citizen of either city they reward status, and appropriate faction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Some known bugs</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- The Status these award are based off your adventure level, for now.  They will be based off your tradeskill level or be given a flat rate in the future.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- If the timer runs out on the item creation part, the quest does revert correctly, it just won't appear like it does in the quest journal.  You can zone to fix the display or rehail the city record keeper to start the timed step again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Not all of the icons for the items to be created are set correctly, by default they display a 'page' icon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Not all of the quest text or names are final.  They will get some additional text / flavor with the next major update to test or sooner.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Feedback / Bugs</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Keep it constructive and as specific as possible please.  I'll be adjusting the timers, rewards, number of items to be created, and various other aspects of the rush orders as necessary.  Any suggestions or bugs can be sent in via /bug or /feedback.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[valkyrja]

Any chance the timer can start once the first item is started?  I prefer to craft from my house, and if it's done this way I'll have to craft in the dungeon with all the Schempps.<div></div>

[EtoilePirate]

<div></div>Hooray! The tailor just hit 44 and has vitality again, I'll check 'em out when I'm home from work. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Also, I agree with the poster above that the timer should start from the time you begin the first combine, if it's short -- no knowing if it'll ask for something that needs the raw you have the fewest of on you, or something. Then again, if the timer is moderately long, I see no problem with the way it's described.  Having raws and fuel is just sensible preparation after all. <div></div><p>Message Edited by EtoilePB on <span class=date_text>08-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:14 PM</span>

[Saroc_Luclin]

Can anyone confirm/deny if Guild XP will be available with these too? Or is it just Status and Coin and Faction?Also is the stage before you hail the time starter detailed enough for you to tell how many resources you need? (ie does he tell you you need X item 1, Y Item 2, Z Item 3, etc...)? Or do you have to guess and hope?<div></div>

[Calthine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saroc_Luclin wrote:<BR>Can anyone confirm/deny if Guild XP will be available with these too? Or is it just Status and Coin and Faction?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Status *is* guild status if you are guilded. 

[Lornick]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saroc_Luclin wrote:<BR>Can anyone confirm/deny if Guild XP will be available with these too? Or is it just Status and Coin and Faction?<BR><BR>Also is the stage before you hail the time starter detailed enough for you to tell how many resources you need? (ie does he tell you you need X item 1, Y Item 2, Z Item 3, etc...)? Or do you have to guess and hope?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So far as I'm aware, ANY status you earn will give a small % to your guild.  I don't know why this would be any different.<BR>

[Eueadan]

<P>I am SO excited for these to be implemented!</P> <P>*rocks back and forth nervously*</P> <P> </P> <P>Good job on this devs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Ri]

When is Test supposed to be patched with the update?  I'm there on test now and according to the update notes it hasn't been patched yet, also the npcs named aren't in the tradeskill instances.<div></div>

[Thistleknot]

I'm confused... this seems like a bad implementation to me. I'm expected to do TS writs that are timed, where if I fail, I don't get anything, but my raws are used up from the items I did make? I'm all for not allowing "getting something for nothing" situations, but at the same time, "Getting nothing for something" doesn't seem exactly fair either. If I'm misunderstanding, or someone with more TS experience can explain (only a level 32 crafter) why this would be a good idea, Please do explain.<div></div>

[Lydiae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thistleknot wrote:<BR>I'm confused... this seems like a bad implementation to me. I'm expected to do TS writs that are timed, where if I fail, I don't get anything, but my raws are used up from the items I did make? I'm all for not allowing "getting something for nothing" situations, but at the same time, "Getting nothing for something" doesn't seem exactly fair either. If I'm misunderstanding, or someone with more TS experience can explain (only a level 32 crafter) why this would be a good idea, Please do explain.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The element of risk (or chance of failure) allows for better rewards.  </P> <P>You're not really risking much though, since I assume you can still vendor the items from an unsucessful writ for fuel cost.</P>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thistleknot wrote:<BR>I'm confused... this seems like a bad implementation to me. I'm expected to do TS writs that are timed, where if I fail, I don't get anything, but my raws are used up from the items I did make? I'm all for not allowing "getting something for nothing" situations, but at the same time, "Getting nothing for something" doesn't seem exactly fair either. If I'm misunderstanding, or someone with more TS experience can explain (only a level 32 crafter) why this would be a good idea, Please do explain.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>More than likely the recipes required will be of "color" to you. </P> <P>You will get EXP from Crafting and if you do fail the quest, you can still sell the items either to players or to the vendor for fuel. </P> <P>There has to be some risk involved somewhere .. these are 'supposed' to reward with MORE Status & Coin than the previous versions.</P> <P>---</P> <P>Woot! Dymus!  So if everything goes right .. maybe GU#27 for these?   *happy dance*</P> <P>But, I am with the others on this .. can we get the timer to start upon 1st item created?   Even if you have to shorten the overall timer to compensate.  </P>

[Laeal]

<DIV>Not trying to be pendatic about this, but if the timer does not start until one leisurely strolls through town, talks to a few friends and eventually arrives home to their crafting station to begin working on the order, it is not really a "rush order" at that point.</DIV>

[Delpha]

I would not be one to presume, but...If one were to assume timers are an attempt to thwart craft-bots, one would want the timer to start as soon as the 'dynamic' part of the quest starts, not allowing enough time for a botter to do the manual config required.This is just a guess of course... but if it approaches being correct, I think you can assume it would not be reasonable to defer starting the timer until after 1 item has been made/started.

[Knesh]

<DIV>I agree the timer should start once you start the first combine.</DIV>

[KniteShayd]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>With the update to test the new timed tradeskill writs should be in.  You can find the <Work Order Foreman> and the <City Record Keeper> within the tradeskill instances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Steps for the Rush Orders</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-<FONT color=#ff00cc> You will need to be level 20</FONT> and have chosen your specialty before the work order foreman will give you one of the rush orders.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>is this tradeskill 20? or adv lvl 20?

[Prrasha]

Nope, timers starting when you get the quest is the way to go.What's "rushed" about being able to stand on a teleporter for 5 minutes, take a cloud ride or two, gather up your components, Call back to town, zone a few times, craft stuff in your house, zone a few more times, and hand in the stuff? A whole in-game day could have gone by in that time!I hate standing amongst the grunting non-event-countering troglodyte bots in the crafting zones myself, but c'mon...

[Arkturis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Delphar7 wrote:<BR>I would not be one to presume, but...<BR><BR>If one were to assume timers are an attempt to thwart craft-bots, one would want the timer to start as soon as the 'dynamic' part of the quest starts, not allowing enough time for a botter to do the manual config required.<BR><BR>This is just a guess of course... but if it approaches being correct, I think you can assume it would not be reasonable to defer starting the timer until after 1 item has been made/started.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is why the timer should, and most likely will, start right away.  The old writs were pointless because someone could bot them in no time

[Fraenhawk]

<div><blockquote><hr>KniteShayd wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Dymus wrote: <div>With the update to test the new timed tradeskill writs should be in.  You can find the <Work Order Foreman> and the <City Record Keeper> within the tradeskill instances.</div> <div> </div> <div><strong>Steps for the Rush Orders</strong></div> <div> </div> <div>-<font color="#ff00cc"> You will need to be level 20</font><font color="#ccff33"> and have chosen your specialty</font> before the work order foreman will give you one of the rush orders.</div> <div> <hr> </div></blockquote>is this tradeskill 20? or adv lvl 20?<hr></blockquote>Choosing your specialty has nothing to do with adv level so I would think this is tradeskill level.</div>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>KerowynnKaotic wrote:<P>There has to be some risk involved somewhere .. these are 'supposed' to reward with MORE Status & Coin than the previous versions.</P><hr></blockquote>Yeah I just hope "more" is underlined here... And already looks promising...<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>08-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:36 PM</span>

[Ever-Befallen]

<DIV>Since it goes with this, Beghn posted this on the other thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beghn wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>The reason for the second person to start the Tradeskill Writ is that they are timed.  The second npc allows you to have time to get ready before you are running on a timer.</FONT><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[Seltha-Larren]

<P>I agree with Pelarski - the timer should start as soon as you get the quest.  These are rush orders after all.  Even having that second step where you can get prepared and then hail the second npc to start the timer I think defeats the whole purpose of it being a timed quest.  Sure I would prefer to craft from home, but in the spirit of a rush order I may not have the chance to go home to perform the work and return.</P> <P>It's a bit like being a contractor in real life, sometimes you have to do the work at the client's site because they need it immediately, sometimes you have enough time to go home and fedex them the finished work the next day.  Maybe for those of us who would like to TS writ from home there could be a special mail box that you get writs delivered to and can mail the finished goods back?</P> <P>Besides, what kinda crafter are you if you don't have several rosewood strongboxes full of components for your current tier anyway - you shouldn't be heading off to harvest after finding out what you need to make.</P> <P> </P>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seltha wrote:<BR> <P>I agree with Pelarski - the timer should start as soon as you get the quest.  These are rush orders after all.  Even having that second step where you can get prepared and then hail the second npc to start the timer I think defeats the whole purpose of it being a timed quest.  Sure I would prefer to craft from home, but in the spirit of a rush order I may not have the chance to go home to perform the work and return.</P> <P>It's a bit like being a contractor in real life, sometimes you have to do the work at the client's site because they need it immediately, sometimes you have enough time to go home and fedex them the finished work the next day.  Maybe for those of us who would like to TS writ from home there could be a special mail box that you get writs delivered to and can mail the finished goods back?</P> <P>Besides, what kinda crafter are you if you don't have several rosewood strongboxes full of components for your current tier anyway - you shouldn't be heading off to harvest after finding out what you need to make.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I personally was thinking more along the lag factor in most of the TS zones today .. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I don't know about everyone else but with the TS system change over from complex to simple the TS zones have been very full.  The change on top of the reduction of TS zone choices, mind you!  </P> <P>Oh .. and .. I have a few reservations about this 2nd NPC being involved .. I can hear the spam now .. "Why aren't my Writ items counting??!??  I have the quest!111!!"  *sigh*  </P> <P>Maybe have the 'Rush Order' in the forum of a scroll you have to examine in your inventory that gives you the quest & starts the timer?   LORE / NO TRADE / NO VALUE "Work Order" ... ?   That way people that would prefer to craft at home / friends house or those that decide at the last second there are too many people in the zone .. can go to "where-ever" and craft.  </P> <P>----</P> <P>I totally blow as a crafter I guess .. I don't even have Rosewood Boxes in my bank much less a box in my inventory.   I craft with backpacks.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P>

[Belce]

Interesting, if you don't complete in the time allowed does it reset the whole process or do the completed items count? I think it would completely reset to nothing done. What sort of time do we have to complete this for a given tier/item? Some of the items in each tier are faster to complete than other items. Just imagine what these would be like if you had to do sub combines as well /grin.

[Calthine]

I can't wait..  eagerly awaiting the Test patch.

[Barbai]

I am curious if the reward is going to stack with the raise in BOTH raws needed and amount of fuels used per combine as well . Not to mention what kind of cost to even start it would be in the higher levels? Using tier 5 as an example the cost to make 10 fulginate chainmail coats just in fuel is rougly 12 gold and 29 silver while the cost to make 10 carbonite chainmail coats is only 68 silver.Would we expect an increase how much of a reward we get cash wise  the higher you get or be the same profit regardless of level?<div></div>

[Calthine]

<P>Well, we could all wait for Test to patch and find out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Deson]

<div></div>I'd wager they are going to use the recoupment system from the old writs so they dont have to input individual reward amounts. Likely raws will be assigned some intrinsic value like they used to have as well to balance out high resource combine sets vs. low ones-like poisons vs. runes or sheilds vs. arrows.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Deson on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 PM</span>

[Barbai]

<div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div> <p>Well, we could all wait for Test to patch and find out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>I guess I just need to learn some patience.  :goes back to extreme gnome punting to pass the time</div>

[missionarymarr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calthine wrote:<BR> <P>Well, we could all wait for Test to patch and find out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Only problem I have with this comment is Dymus in his message gave the impression this should already have been on test. Therefore I can understand people wanting more specifics since players on test should have been able to give some specifics by now.

[Piltow]

<P>Just got booted from test for a PATCH.   YAAAAAA</P> <P> </P>

[Deson]

Wow, glad I dont work their hours.<div></div>

[Ryuugekitai]

<P>Would it be too much to ask for Tradeskill Xp as well as other rewards for theses rush orders?</P> <P>I understand you will get XP from the crafting as you get from any kind of crafting, but Xp from a quest doesn't eat up your vitality. </P> <P>The problem I currently have is I absolutely can't keep up with my adventure XP on my crafting one. The lack of Quest XP and the extremely slow vitality increase just slows my craft leveling down so much. So any solution enabling me to XP my crafting a bit faster would be welcome.</P> <P>Still, the challenge and reward thing is cool and I'll be looking forward for it.</P>

[Frens]

First, neither NPC exists in the Coalition tradeskill zone.Second, the time limit is TIGHT - if you forgot any materials you most likely won't get to the bank and back in time to finish.Third, power is your god while crafting on a timer - I ended up scarfing down some good food and using a totem.My experiment involved a level 26 Defiler/level 39 Sage. During the process I dinged 40 Sage.I picked the 'Advanced Journeyman Sage Work Order' and created 6 Spells from levels 34-37. Time given: 8.5 minutes. I failed the first attempt due to forgetting my velium. However, the second time I finished with 2.5 minutes remaining. Consumed 48 fuel at 3.84s apiece (total: 1g 84s 32c). All spells requested were at AppIV. I never find AppIV to be a challenge, so I was happy to rack up the extra exp in the process.My reward was 6g 63s 55c, 35 points with Coalition of Tradesfolke (!) and 2186 GSP. Not bad, but the 35 faction points will throw some people off. While the rate of chaining adventure/TS writs is the same if you have materials, if you figure in time to harvest the materials, you're gaining faction and status far slower than an adventurer could. If you factor in the fact that an adventurer can lock themselves at 14 if they want to max out their faction with one (or more) groups quickly* and tradeskillers have no such luxury, it starts to look pretty grim.*My highest adventurer is level 37. Maybe the T6+ writs can go faster, but I wouldn't know.Update: You can do writs below your level if you want. You can't delete writs. Should be deletable during testing: now I have to do T3 spells for no experience, low profit, and barely any status. Only 100 GSP for the begginner writ? 10 faction points? Is it because I outlevelled or because it's really set that low?I did all this from my laptop CraftBox at work, have to finish up my shift and I'll dabble some more later.JonaesSage, Magar Inc.Test ServerEdit: the quest consumed the spells as they were made. If you fail to beat the timer, POOF goes your work. Also, after letting the timer go and zoning, the very basic writ was reading correctly at 1166 GSP.<p>Message Edited by Frens on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:40 AM</span>

[Frens]

So, that only took me about 10 minutes (I love my job) so I decided to PREVIEW the range of tasks available with other characters. The main reason is that I want to know just what to expect from the different tradeskill writ levels. Therefore I'll have a list of the character levels, the type taken, and the rewards proposed in the window.20 Troubador/42 Woodworker, 'Woodworker Work Order' - 6 teak round shields (roughly 8g 29s 44c fuel), 6g 63s 55c, 2100 GSP, 40 faction37 Brigand/40 Alchemist, 'Alchemist Work Order' - 4x Level 40 Apprentice IV skills (roughly 5g 52s 24c), 6g 63s 55c, 4275 GSP, 40 faction(Conclusion 1: GSP rewards are tied to adventure level - nothing else is)21 Conjuror/38 Weaponsmith, 'Talented Journeyman Weaponsmith Work Order' - 2x feyiron crescent axe, 2x etched fistwraps, 2x feyiron executioner's axe (roughly 1g 84s 32c), 1g 10s 59c, 1920 GSP, 30 faction** GSP reward was bugged until I zoned32 Paladin/39 Armorer, 'Journeyman Armorer Work Order' - 6x Feyiron Melodic Coat (roughly 1g 84s 32c), 1g 10s 59c, 2400 GSP, 25 faction20 Fury/40 Tailor, 'Advanced Apprentice Tailor Work Order' - Tanquil Canvas Slippers, Bargainer's Bloomers, Woven Boiled Boots, Dexterous Boiled Gloves, Dexterous Boiled Vest (roughly 33s 60c), 1g 10s 59c, 1166 GSP, 20 faction26 Coercer/40 Jeweler, 'Talented Apprentice Jeweler Work Order' - 5 AppIV runes and Agate Noxious Locket (roughly 39s 36c), 20s 74c, 455 GSP 15 faction27 Wizard/40 Provisioner, 'Apprentice Provisioner Catering Order' - 12 cups Oolong Tea (roughly 1s 68c), 20s 75c, 1166 GSP, 10 factionConclusions:1. GSP rewards are tied to adventuring level.2. Coin rewards are tiered; however, the next tier's amount is available at the 'advanced' stage, resulting in the ability to make a good coin profit3. Talented Apprentice GSP reward has to be bugged.4. Adventurers will always earn faction at a faster rate (no harvest time). Seemingly balanced by 4 factions for them to cater to.5. In the live environment where materials are purchaseable, tradeskillers may have the advantage when it comes to earning GSP, if they're willing to give up cash (and as it stands now, it's possible for them to make money purchasing all materials from broker on some writs).Suggestions:1. Coin awards should be either exactly equal to fuel or equal to fuel plus a small surcharge for the value of materials.2. Fix the bugs on the Talented Apprentice Work Order and GSP tied to adventure level.3. Maybe add harvesting/raw material writ for anything but shrub/fish harvests. If it's selectable and big (1 stack+) could allow for faction advancement while harvesting and putting the sheerly annoying amount of loam and meat to good use.4. Since I didn't have the tea stuff handy and have no time to test now, can somebody see if pristine provisioning combines counts for 1 or 2 on the order? Produces 2 normally, so should either count for two or use 1 on the task and give you one.Regards,Magar Inc.Test Server

[Saroc_Luclin]

If you read the Original post:<blockquote><hr>Dymus wrote:<div><strong>Some known bugs</strong></div> <div> </div> <div>- The Status these award are based off your adventure level, for now.  They will be based off your tradeskill level or be given a flat rate in the future.</div> <div> </div> <div>- If the timer runs out on the item creation part, the quest does revert correctly, it just won't appear like it does in the quest journal.  You can zone to fix the display or rehail the city record keeper to start the timed step again.</div> <div> </div> <div>- Not all of the icons for the items to be created are set correctly, by default they display a 'page' icon.</div> <div> </div> <div>- Not all of the quest text or names are final.  They will get some additional text / flavor with the next major update to test or sooner.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote><div></div>

[ZeyGnome]

<P>Couple of things before I rush off to an appointment:</P> <P>Character 46 Monk - 45 Alchemist</P> <P>1. Doing the highest Writ, you lose money.  Typical writ used 48 Beeswax Candles @ 15s 36c Each (7g 37s 28c) and the reward was just over 6g.</P> <P>2. So far I have several bugs, one of which is stopping me from testing anymore.  The last Writ I received asked for 'Raging Blows' which is not in my books (I have them all), the writ actually needed 'Raging Press' so I was able to continue after that.  The stopper was 'Divine Judgement'.  It asks for it, but does not recognize that it is made so I cannot complete the writ, and I cannot continue because you can't delete the writ even if you fail.  I am assuming that it is a mislabel, so when I get back from my appointment, I will try the other items in the same range to see if one of them is what it really needs.  </P> <P>3. The quest should be deletable <STRONG>IF</STRONG> you fail.  Being stuck with a writ is a bad thing and I can see a whole bunch of /petitions on Live if it goes in this way.  Allowing to delete on failure (or receive a different one) would be a good idiea, and off the top of my head, I can't see an exploitable loophole.  You still have to wait out the whole timer to make it fail.</P> <P>4.  Man, are these tight!  I like that.  It is definitely challenging.  I play on Test though, and I am wondering how problematic it will be on Live with all the lag in the now-reduced number of tradeskill instances.</P> <P>5. IMHO, the status rewards should stay as a scaling of the level (Tradeskill level, when that is changed).  A flat status reward just seems a bit to meh to me.</P> <P>6. Originally I was thinking that covering 3 tiers for the writs was a bit excessive, especially getting gray recipes when choosing the lowest writs, but I have reconsidered.  I can understand the thought behind it now.  If someone wants to get rid of overflow harvestables, then this is a nice way to do it.  It also is great for learning how to do the new writ system.</P> <P>That's all off the top of my head at the moment, I need to get into traffic now :/</P> <P>I like where this is going, we just need to find all the bugs, inconsistences, and issues before sending it to Live.</P> <P> </P>

[Lilj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Frens wrote:<BR><BR>20 Troubador/42 Woodworker, 'Woodworker Work Order' - 6 teak round shields (roughly 8g 29s 44c fuel), 6g 63s 55c, 2100 GSP, 40 faction<BR>37 Brigand/40 Alchemist, 'Alchemist Work Order' - 4x Level 40 Apprentice IV skills (roughly 5g 52s 24c), 6g 63s 55c, 4275 GSP, 40 faction<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not sure I read this right, so I hope someone can clarify <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Did you use 8g29s44c in fuels to make the 6 teak shields and got 6g63s55c in reward? So you actually lost coin on this order?</P> <P>The same goes for the other order I quoted, a loss of approx. 1g if I read it correct.</P> <P>You mention later it is possible to earn coin, that is only through the 'Advanced orders' then?</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Sunrayn]

<P>Against my better judgement, I tried a 'rush order' on my 42 woodworker.</P> <P>First attempt---Took the Journeyman writ.  Didnt even find out what I would be making until I hailed the second guy to start the timer.  Oh, wow, I need to make 6 pristine briarwood bucklers...too bad I dont have any T4 materials with me...Failed.</P> <P>Second attempt---Got the stuff I would need out of the bank, hail the guy and start.  I have just over 8 minutes.  Recipe is lvl 30.  Get the first two cranked out....then....the RNG turns evil....Completed the 5th buckler just as time runs out.</P> <P>In short, my original impression of these writs was right on.  No thank you, I will stick with adventure writs for guild status and continue supplementing my crafters with adventuring, just like SOE intended.</P>

[Lilj]

<P>Feedback:</P> <P>1.As far as I can see orders have to be made pristine to count, just not for the provisioner. As a provisioner I can stop my creation process at the first lvl of quality and still get writ credit.</P> <P>So us provisioners have a very huge advantage compared to the other professions.</P> <P>Edit: Someone asked earlier if a pristine provisioner combine give 1 or 2 quest updates. It gives 2. But we also need to make more items per writ, so this probably evens out.</P> <P>2. The timer seems to be 8 minutes for all orders. The amount of items required differs. I have seen orders from 7-12 combines. This timer is rather harsh, and it leaves absolutely no room for lag or loosing link. This is imo a very bad move. </P> <P>Update on the number of combines: Most classes have approximately 7 combines per writ, provisioners have 12-14 combines. </P> <P>3. There is no product. When you create an item, you get a quest ding, but no product. This means if you loose link, you will get a rather huge loss because you will loose all you have made untill then. People can easily loose 20g for one failed writ.</P> <P>As the system stands now, I can see absolutely no reason to use it. I hope it will get tweaked, I seriously hope so.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Liljna on <SPAN class=date_text>08-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:59 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Liljna on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:52 PM</span>

[Prismata]

<P>I do like the new system overall. I think it is an improvement over the old writs. I do have one concern and that is that you do not get any finished items in your inventory. The reason this concerns me is that if you get disconnected for some reason while completing the work order you have nothing to sell back to recoup fuel costs. This could be pretty pricey at the higher tiers. If I'm a t7 carpenter and I've just completed my 5th item and the server goes down, or my ISP dies I'm out the price of fuels for the items I've already made. I'm assuming here that the timer would run out as I'm trying to get back into the game. </P> <P>I would like to emphasize though that I really like the new system in concept. Obviously it does need a bit of tweaking, but the OP did include that disclaimer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Tuvoccat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lydiaele wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The element of risk (or chance of failure) allows for better rewards. </P> <P>You're not really risking much though, since I assume you can still vendor the items from an unsucessful writ for fuel cost.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You end up with nothing if you fail, all the ingredients are gone, the items you made are not there.  There is nothing to sell if you fail!  FAIL means FAIL COMPLETELY!  I for one do not like it.</P> <P>I think we should have the items we made to sell back to merchant at least if not on the broker.</P> <P>The way it is now you get ABSOLUTLY NOTHING if you fail.  :smileymad:</P> <P>Also the rewards are not woth it right now if your adventure skill is low.  I am lvl 26 carpenter, lvl 14 Mystic.  It took me twice to succeed, on success I receive 20s 1000sp and 10 faction for making 6 items.  I have to find my records from the original type ts writs to see the difference. </P> <P>Timer is 8 min and you need pleanty of every ingredient  and fuel from every recipe in your ts tier.  For carpenter I had to have sandpaper, coal, and filiment beside the raw materials.   Also had to run from sawhorse, to loam, to forge, or work table. You have no idea what you will be making and the time starts the second you hail the npc that gives the writ.</P> <P>There are 2 types of writs, one you make 6 of same item the other you make one of 4 items then 2 of another item.</P> <P>I will have more details after I can go back and do some more writs.  Only had time to try a couple this morning.</P> <P> </P>

[Trillien]

This system is a total bore, a waste of time, and I could see developing carpal tunnel syndrome if one did more than a few at a time. It only took me one attempt with my provisioner on test to determine that this is not something, in its present form, that I would ever want to do.

[Finora]

<P>I actually really do like the fact that the writs are timed.</P> <P>I dislike the fact they are ding updates (for reasons people have already posted). I dislike the fact that at least some of the writs result in a loss of cash rather than a small profit or even fuel cost. You should NEVER have to end up paying for your status/faction.</P> <P>The faction rewards currently are tiny tiny. They should be equal to the faction rewards for the other 4 city factions. (unless where it was said status rewards were bugged and based on adventure level meant faction rewards were as well).</P> <P>We had been told that the effort was so that we could have a greater reward. The rewards are less impressive by far than the old system, and you can easily net better rewards doing adventure writs of a similar level.</P><p>Message Edited by Calendri on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:24 AM</span>

[Cebkix]

<DIV>I haven't had a chance to jump on test and work it out myself, but after reading some comments, it seems like there is some due feedback:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Provisioners should have their writs re-evaluated, or everyone will only do provisioner writs, since they will easily be the most profitable (double combines for pristine, yet no pristine requirement and low fuel costs)</LI></UL> <P> </P> <UL> <LI>Shouldn't the writs be done similarly to the way other writs and instances are done?  Have the players select their own type of tradeskill writ:  Easy, Medium, or Difficult.  Obviously the Easy, Medium will only provide a small and fair amount of profit (it should still be profit above fuel costs) while only having little or fair amount of risk, while the Difficult tradeskill writ has the tightest time constraints, but also provides the best rewards.</LI></UL> <P> </P> <UL> <LI>Rewards for tradeskill writs should <STRONG>absolutely</STRONG> leave the player with profit.  Even if it's a small percentage.  Losing money on a writ simply makes them a waste of time.  People will just do adventure writs instead.</LI></UL> <P> </P> <UL> <LI>I think the timer is a great idea and gives that sense of risk, but I think the timer should adjust based on the difficulty selected and variate from the reward.</LI></UL> <P> </P> <UL> <LI>Possibly put the second NPC inside the instance rather than next to the quest giver?  Or consider letting the player decide when they're ready to begin, only based on factors such as lag/disconnects/crashes/etc.  Them tradeskill zones are bound to get mighty crowded...</LI></UL> <P> </P> <UL> <LI>It would be exciting to see cool dialogue and story behind each writ, for example: <FONT color=#3333ff> </FONT><FONT color=#3399ff size=2>"Lately, the Queen's front line soldiers in a small battle outside Antonica, have been forced to retreat back to the city.  The work you do will reward them with new pieces of armor, to help protect them as they are lead into victory!"</FONT>  or <FONT color=#ff0000> <FONT size=2>"Rats have infested the Overlord's personal store of fine delectable foods.  You are assigned this writ to immediately take position in front of a stove and kettle and prepare some of the finest dishes for him."  </FONT></FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>I hope some of these suggestions make it over to live, or at least considered as improvements -- I am very excited for these tradeskill changes to take place. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Cebkix on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:36 AM</span>

[Saroc_Luclin]

The provisioners rush orders should have doubled amounts. With the time limits in place, that should be enough to force  them up to the pristine level most of the time. (They will have a small advantage still but not as big of an advantage as they do now apparantly).The rewards are still a bit of a WIP at the moment, so I'm not all that concerned that some orders aren't returning full profits. Feedback/bug those ones so they can find them and correct them; that's what Test is for after all.The 2-stage process was apparantly supposed to give people time to get their items  together before starting. But if we can't tell what we need to make before the timer starts, I don't see the point of the 2 stage process.<div></div>

[Lilj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saroc_Luclin wrote:<BR>The provisioners rush orders should have doubled amounts. With the time limits in place, that should be enough to force  them up to the pristine level most of the time. (They will have a small advantage still but not as big of an advantage as they do now apparantly).<BR><BR>The rewards are still a bit of a WIP at the moment, so I'm not all that concerned that some orders aren't returning full profits. Feedback/bug those ones so they can find them and correct them; that's what Test is for after all.<BR><BR>The 2-stage process was apparantly supposed to give people time to get their items  together before starting. But if we can't tell what we need to make before the timer starts, I don't see the point of the 2 stage process.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>As an update, I can say that provisioners does need to make more combines than other classes. We can get 12-14 combines, where I have seen other classes get around 7. So it does indeed seems provisioners have a double amount as you suggest <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I can see I wasn't clear in my original message, so therefore this update.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Liljna on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 PM</span>

[Tuvoccat]

<P>Just pull out my records from doing ts writs on old system.  As a provisioner at ts lvls 20-29 I was making between 2500 - 3000 sp per writ.  My LVL 26 carpenter on test just made 1000 sp. Hope that is because they have it set to adventure lvl not ts lvl right now and will be fixing that soon. My adventure lvl is 14.</P> <P>Have no idea the exact amount of faction we got with the old ts system but I know as a lvl 26 adventurer right now I get 150 faction points per city writ. 10 faction points per ts writ doesn't seem right.   When i count harvesting time it does not take less time to do 15 ts writs than to do one city writ.  And I cannot fail a city writ. I get those status points and faction points every time.</P> <P>And the newbee quest in The Caves, Oakmyst Forest, The Ruins ect. give over 100 faction points for simple easy no timer task. </P> <P>Sure we lvl faster at low ts lvls now but there is no faction included.</P> <P>I'm a disappointed by the numbers right now.  Hope there are changes before going live that change my mind. </P> <P>And I would like to see the timer more like 10 min. I enjoy the timing part but do see the lag in ts instances on live being a problem.</P> <P>Hoping for big improvements before the new ts system goes live.</P>

[Badtidings]

60 Sage, 64 Adventurer.I spent most of yesterday harvesting T7 materials in anticipation that the writs would require them. Logged in this morning with bags brimming with Hanging Roots, Gems, Minerals, and Rosewood. Ran anxiously to the quest starter.Figured I'll just pick the first in the list and work my way down...Went to person 2 and he said "Go!"Turns out the first in the list is for level 40 spells.Timer ticking. Not a single T5 harvest in my bags.I figure oh well, lesson learned. I'll delete this one and see what quest 2 is.Cannot delete.Well, maybe when the quest timer expires I can talk to person 1 again.Wait.Expires.Nope, person 2 only, and the timer's ticking again.Watch the timer tick down as I head for the bank, unload some of my T7 materials, and head for Lavastorm. Harvest what I need.Return, speak to person 2, jump over the rail at the top of the tradeskill instance to get to the scribing tables at the bottom of the evil tradeskill instances. Spam / Counter everything with progress until durability is in jeapordy the spam durability.Finish with seconds to spare. Didn't think to glance.Total time to complete the first experience. 61 minutes.I think it would be helpful to warn folks ahead of "Go!" that for this rush order they'll need plenty of... pick something to indicate what tier stuff they'll need... and ask them if they're ready. If they say no then drop the dialog and don't start the timer yet.Also, based on feedback in channel during my testing, I think that if the writ fails, the items created up to the failure should be returned to inventory so that crafters have a chance to recover the fuel cost of failure.All the feedback I have so far. I like the concept. Just haven't had much chance to exercise the practice.

[lilmohi]

<P>if there is going to be such a large risk of gold loss either due to the timer or LD etc on a failure, then the rewards need to be much more significant.  Personally i would rather there be product created after a failure that can be sold back to cover costs.  Either that or have the quest giver pay you for the amount you did complete.  if you fail to get pristine on just one item you're already out a gold or so, and if you run out of time at the final item you are out 6+gp.</P> <P> </P> <P>As it is now there is far too much risk and far too little reward for this to be more than a novelty.  I do however like the concept i just think it needs a lot of work still. :smileytongue:</P>

[missionarymarr]

<DIV>I really hope from what I am reading that they do adjust these especially in terms of the coin reward. I really believe that if they are going to put some risk in them with the time limit and as such if we fail we lose any of the items we created trying to do these. The coin reward has to be a profit and I would say a fairly nice one. I would like to see maybe getting your fuels costs recouped plus 25%-50% more. The status and faction I feel should be about the same as adventuring writs. What it sll depends upon though is how tight the time limit is going to be. If you only fail once every ten tries at one of these the coin reward wouldn't have to be as high. The more likley you are to fail though the bigger the reward needs to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also believe if it is going to be two NPCs you should definately find out exactly what you are going to have to make from the first NPC since that would seem to be the reason for having the two. To allow you time to get any extra supplies you might need before starting the timer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the end I will be waiting to see what happens from all of this over the next little while before I make a judgement. Although for now it does seem a little less then impressive. A nice idea with the time limit and such but with the rewards I am seeing not worth doing at all.</DIV>

[Tomanak]

<P>Perhaps the initial writ giver needs to let you know what item is required, that way when you go to the 2nd NPC and start the timer you will already have the raws you will need to fulfill the writ.</P> <P>Even if its a rush job, the contractor would already know what work needed to be done..you dont say I need some work done on my house today, but Im not going to tell you what it is till you get here.</P> <P>As mentioned, at the very least we need to know what tier is required. As a Level 70 Crafter I rarely keep anything but T7 raws on my person, anything from a lower tier is in the bank where it belongs..</P>

[menolly1]

There are several problems with the writs as they are now.You have no idea before hand what materials you will need for the writs.The timer starts as soon as you get the quest from the second npc.You have 8 min to finish the quest. the timer does not account for the time it takes to get to the appropriate station,lag or critical failures.You lose money when you do the highest lvl writ.If you complete the writ on time, the money rewarded is not enough to even cover fuel costs,much less be any type of reward.If you fail to complete the writ on time, you will lose all or most raws and fuels.The only item I made in my bag after a failed writ was the last one I was working on and finished after the timer ran out.As it stands now the writs are not worth doing.

[Kizee]

I think they need to add a time limit on the adventure writs now to balance them out. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Vodr]

An idea that would help aliviate the issue most are having, I know writs are timed to help prevent botters from pre-prepping everything. Most say they would love to know what they are making ahead of time to know what rares are needed.Could you just make it so the quest starter gives you a list of raws and fuels you will need before you go to the timer starter. This way you can make sure you have what you need to do the combines without knowlage of what the item is you are making. Would kill 2 birds with one stone by keeping botters from prepping, and allowing everyone to make sure they are fully ready to start the run.

[Steeler77]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> I think they need to add a time limit on the adventure writs now to balance them out. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Well said, my opinion too and I mean that serious. I dislike the new system like it is proposed and tested here. :smileymad: It is a peak of unfairness against crafting players which try with writs. I am sorry for the people who dont see that. Get me right, a challenge is good, a challenge is needed and I looked forward that challenge system in crafting. But I always thought the rush completion <STRONG>adds</STRONG> <STRONG>a reward</STRONG> to the normal reward which would be 150 faction points (why less then the adventure ones by more work?!) and the money. I thought into the direction they add some more money, maybe a nice item reward you only get when you complete a certain amount of rush quests. But that you come out with nothing even unable to delete the writ if you fail!? Come on, in the adventure writs you can also test as many strategies as you need to complete it without a reset. I am truely sorry, but for me that current system runs against any logic. What a big disappintment and I really looked forward that system. :smileysad: But I wont give up hope though, maybe some corrections are made and then it will be ultra cool. </FONT></P>

[Kordran]

<P>As it stands, it sounds like this system is fairly pointless. The only, minimal, value I could see for it is to those who only tradeskill and do no adventuring whatsoever. And the "anti-bot" provisions are silly; they have no more chance of stopping tradeskill bots than they do of stopping gold sellers. All they end up doing is ticking off real, live players.</P> <P>Fundamentally, it's all about time vs. reward. And the "rewards" are pathetic.</P> <P> </P>

[Kizee]

<P>IMO they should have 2 types of writs:</P> <P>Type one would be make more of x product for break even cost and some status for the people that don't want the risk of losing it all if they don't make the time limit.</P> <P> </P> <P>Type 2 would be make less of x product with a time limit for a nice chunk of change and a better status reward for people that like taking risks.</P> <P> </P> <P>I personally wouldn't do the timed ones if I had a choice since the RNG hates me. On some combines I could empty my power on + durabiltity and keep watching it go down. One of these times I am gonna break my mouse out of frustration. :smileyindifferent:</P><p>Message Edited by Kizee on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:35 AM</span>

[missionarymarr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kordran wrote:<BR> <P>As it stands, it sounds like this system is fairly pointless. The only, minimal, value I could see for it is to those who only tradeskill and do no adventuring whatsoever. And the "anti-bot" provisions are silly; they have no more chance of stopping tradeskill bots than they do of stopping gold sellers. All they end up doing is ticking off real, live players.</P> <P>Fundamentally, it's all about time vs. reward. And the "rewards" are pathetic.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What's really annoying is the DEVS have said the time limit is their to allow the rewards to be bigger. Yet the way it stands now it seems once again the DEVs have it in for Crafters and don't want to give them anything that adventurers might complain about. I really hope they are serious about these writs and listen to the Feedback and greatly increase the rewards on them. I like the sound of the system and I wouldn't even mind losing the items I make for the writ if I fail if the reward was a fairly decent amount. So far though the reward doesn't appear to be enough to justify anyone doing these.

[Lydiae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tuvoccat wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lydiaele wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The element of risk (or chance of failure) allows for better rewards. </P> <P>You're not really risking much though, since I assume you can still vendor the items from an unsucessful writ for fuel cost.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You end up with nothing if you fail, all the ingredients are gone, the items you made are not there.  There is nothing to sell if you fail!  FAIL means FAIL COMPLETELY!  I for one do not like it.</P> <P>I think we should have the items we made to sell back to merchant at least if not on the broker.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc3333>You lost the items when you turned in the old writ, I guess that's the idea here.  If you do get to keep them, it should oly be if you fail.  I <STRONG>do</STRONG> think we should get more money for succeeding.  As it stands I'm pretty sure it's less money, status and faction than we got with the old system, at least sometimes, and in the old system there was no chance of failure.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc3333>Is there going to be another type of writ for people who are just looking to make some money (i.e. no status given)?</FONT></P> <P>The way it is now you get ABSOLUTLY NOTHING if you fail.  :smileymad:</P> <P><FONT color=#cc3333>If you're not at the level cap you do get pristine experience; which was a big gripe under the old system.  On the other hand you can't fail an adventure writ and you also get drops you can sell.  The risk (money lost) seems higher with tradeskills. (dying to solo MoB's is pretty rare, and adventurers can and usually do group them.)  I would think the reward should be better.</FONT></P> <P>Also the rewards are not woth it <FONT color=#cc3333>right now</FONT> if your adventure skill is low.  I am lvl 26 carpenter, lvl 14 Mystic.  It took me twice to succeed, on success I receive 20s 1000sp and 10 faction for making 6 items.  I have to find my records from the original type ts writs to see the difference. </P> <P>Timer is 8 min and you need pleanty of every ingredient  and fuel from every recipe in your ts tier.  For carpenter I had to have sandpaper, coal, and filiment beside the raw materials.   Also had to run from sawhorse, to loam, to forge, or work table. You have no idea what you will be making and the time starts the second you hail the npc that gives the writ.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc3333>I keep boxes of every ingredient in all tiers in the bank and pull out the one I need when I craft.</FONT></P> <P>There are 2 types of writs, one you make 6 of same item the other you make one of 4 items then 2 of another item.</P> <P>I will have more details after I can go back and do some more writs.  Only had time to try a couple this morning.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Dymus]

<DIV>As a reminder:  Keep the feedback constructive.  I'll be more likely to make changes based on objective (and specific) feedback and commentary than long ranting posts.  The more specific the better.  Most people have been good about this and I'd like to keep the thread in that direction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To answer some of the questions that have come up in the thread:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why is the City Record Keeper there, why does the timer not start when I get the work order?</STRONG> - The work order needs an initial step to fall back on if the timer is failed.  The record keeper is the first step and gives that initial stage fallback.  There needs to be a single step before the timer starts in order for the work orders to function properly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why do the NPC's not exist in the Coalition or Ironforge crafting zones?</STRONG> - I negleged to remember to put them there.  Thanks for the reminder, they'll be added soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why is the timer so aggressive?</STRONG> - The baseline difficulty needs to be determined before the other options appear for the rush work orders.  The ones on test right now should be the most difficult ones.  After all the functionality and rewards are tuned for these then the others with longer timers and lesser rewards will be added.  The number of variables needs to be limited at first before the rest of the options can be built.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why are these work orders not able to be deleted?</STRONG> - An oversight, they share the same quest category as the old City Tradeskill Tasks.  That will change and they will be able to be deleted soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why does the status value for the work orders change?</STRONG> - They should be based on your crafter level in relation to the level of the work order.  Similar to how adventure writs work in their status reward calculations.  There is a base value for the work order and as you level beyond it the status will diminish.  At the moment they are using adventure level for the work orders, that will be fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why do I lose money on some writs instead of turn a profit?</STRONG> - The Calculations are off for some of them and need tuning.  However, if you burn more fuel than average you will stand a chance of cutting into your profit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why are the faction and status rewards lower than adventure writs?</STRONG> - These are able to be completed in less than 10 minutes each.  The adventure writs are typically assumed to take about 30 - 60 minutes depending on level and difficulty.  The faction reward does increase with the level of the work order, level 69 work orders award 80 faction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Specific Bugs Noted which should be fixed soon:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Divine Judgement should now correctly update the Talented Alchemist Work Order.</DIV> <DIV>- Raging Blows was changed to Raging Press in the Talented Alchemist Work Order.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ArdenFarmarin]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>As a level 54 armorsmith, I have zero market for non-rare T6 armor and the T7 market is also rare only.  After harvesting all over the Overrealm for about a month, I have a grand total of only 3 xegonite clusters which is hardly worth bothering with.  The final and only hope for having a profit making business as a armorsmith is this new writ system as a means of turning normal raw materials into cash and status.  And now I'm hearing that its an 8 minute rush job and if you fail its 100% loss of raw materials and fuels?  How do you think its possible to respond constructively?*Hands you a club*  Here ya go.  You might as well get started reducing Armorillo, the Armorsmith Mascot in the picture below, to a blood pulp:<img src="http://www.scsc.k12.ar.us/2002ArkNatHist/Projects/ArnoldL/Images/Armadillo_dead_a02.jpg"><div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by ArdenFarmariner on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 PM</span>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<DIV>Ok .. Just from reading the feedback on this I have a few thoughts ..</DIV> <DIV>(I don't play on test - I just don't have the time to balance btw test & live but I read your work religiously *g*)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI><STRONG>The actual Item that is required for the Writ NEEDS to be PHYSICALLY made so that the crafter can re-coup their loss in fuel if they fail a writ!</STRONG></LI> <LI>The Cash Reward needs to be looked at. </LI> <UL> <LI>These were 'supposed' to be "Rewarding" not @ 2cp more than what the Vendor would give you for the item!</LI> <LI>Or in some cases LESS than what the vendor would give!</LI> <UL> <LI>An Adventure may not be rewarded in Cash for their Writs but they are rewarded by the Item drops! </LI> <LI>Not only from the Mobs they have to kill for the Writ but also for the Mobs the player has to kill to get the correct mobs to pop!</LI> <LI>And An Adventure can work on all (4) Adv Factions at the same time in most tiers in the same area/zone!</LI> <LI>Plus, the chance at Treasured / Legendary and Fabled items in their Adv Writ Mob killing.</LI></UL> <LI>Check to make sure the Cash Rewards aren't tied to Adv Level as well, maybe?   </LI></UL> <LI>The Status rewards for the writs are already a Known bug (<EM>hopefully it gets fixed before live</EM>)</LI> <LI>The Faction needs to be bumped up!  Every Adv Writ gets 150 and they aren't timed and don't require supplies!</LI> <UL> <LI>If you are going to use a ladder based system for the faction</LI> <LI>Start at 20 for the lowest level writ and increase it by 5</LI> <UL> <LI>lvl 20-29 1st Writ = 20 Faction (apprentice)</LI> <LI>lvl 20-29 2nd Writ = 25 Faction (journeyman)</LI> <LI>lvl 20-29 3rd Writ = 30 Faction (Named Writ)</LI> <LI>lvl 20-29 4th Writ = 35 Faction (Advanced Writ)</LI> <LI>lvl 30-39 writs = 40 to 55 Faction</LI> <LI>lvl 40-49 writs = 60 to75 Faction</LI> <LI>lvl 50-59 writs = 80 to 95 Faction</LI> <LI>lvl 60-69 writs = 100 to 115 Faction</LI> <LI>lvl 70 -- Future ...</LI></UL> <LI><STRONG>The above suggestion for faction is only correct .... </STRONG></LI> <LI><STRONG>** if ** I understood correctly on how the writs are given/choosing so if I am incorrect .. correct me! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></STRONG></LI> <LI>Truthfully I would actually prefer an increase of faction but the above is much more favorable than your current scheme of faction ( T3 = @ 20 Faction / T4 = @30 Faction / etc.. )  but I *think* they want to space it out a bit more since there is only (1) Crafting Faction (city) and therefore less involved and quicker to cap out.</LI></UL> <LI>I still say get rid of the 2nd NPC and just make the 1st NPC give you a Scroll with your "Rush Order".</LI> <UL> <LI>NO TRADE / LORE / NO VALUE "Rush Order" Scroll</LI> <LI>Allow the scroll to be examined to show "Rush Order" - Requirements. (supplies)</LI></UL> <LI>Make the quest deletable</LI> <LI>Might want to consider Re-opening a few TS zones?  </LI> <UL> <LI>Timers suck when you are lagging on counters.  </LI></UL></UL> <P>Have they added in any Test Update Notes yet?  Or was the Crafting Writs the only thing added to Test last night?</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Dymus</STRONG></FONT>:</P> <DIV><STRONG>Why is the City Record Keeper there, why does the timer not start when I get the work order?</STRONG> - The work order needs an initial step to fall back on if the timer is failed.  The record keeper is the first step and gives that initial stage fallback.  There needs to be a single step before the timer starts in order for the work orders to function properly.</DIV> <DIV>----</DIV> <DIV><EM>Just get rid of him!  Turn the Writs into Scroll Form!  Yes, I know that would take a bit longer but the 2nd NPC is just asking for issues and problems with new players and people that pick up crafting writs later on.  1 out of 20 people actually read the NPC chatter.   It the Crafter receives the "Work Order" in a Reward Box they are more than likely to pay more attention to it .. Think of it as a "shiny" .. </EM></DIV> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by KerowynnKaotic on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:28 PM</span>

[Looker1010]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>As a reminder:  Keep the feedback constructive.  I'll be more likely to make changes based on objective (and specific) feedback and commentary than long ranting posts.  The more specific the better.  Most people have been good about this and I'd like to keep the thread in that direction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To answer some of the questions that have come up in the thread:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why are the faction and status rewards lower than adventure writs?</STRONG> - These are able to be completed in less than 10 minutes each.  The adventure writs are typically assumed to take about 30 - 60 minutes depending on level and difficulty.  The faction reward does increase with the level of the work order, level 69 work orders award 80 faction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>With the old crafting writs, we received 125 faction per writ and titles were based on reaching 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 and 40,000. With the amount of faction now given someone doing only level 69 writs, for the 80 faction, would have to complete 125 writs per title tier, and a total of 500 writs to reach 40,000. Someone receiving only 25 faction per writ would need to do 400 writs to get that first title. You really, really need to revisit the amount of faction these writs give. <BR>

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why are the faction and status rewards lower than adventure writs?</STRONG> - These are able to be completed in less than 10 minutes each.  The adventure writs are typically assumed to take about 30 - 60 minutes depending on level and difficulty.  The faction reward does increase with the level of the work order, level 69 work orders award 80 faction.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>While I do agree that this is a valid point, those who craft as well as adventure need some degree of motivation to do these vs adventure writs. As a level 70 Warlock, I can easily do 2 writs (65-70 writs at that) in 30 minutes. While I get no XP for these writs I do get 6788 status a piece for these. Thats 13576 status plus whatever I loot from the corpses, which in a typical 30 minute run in T7 can easily net at a minimum 30gp. While I know that the numbers are subject to change, a T7 TS writ needs to net at least 4500 status and 10gp to make them even worth doing in place of Adventure writs and unlike the TS writs I cant fail an adventurer writ. </P> <P>I also reiterate, the City Recorder should let you know either what you will be making or the tier you will be required to make in order to ensure you have the proper raws.</P>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>Dymus wrote:<DIV><STRONG>Why are the faction and status rewards lower than adventure writs?</STRONG> - These are able to be completed in less than 10 minutes each.  The adventure writs are typically assumed to take about 30 - 60 minutes depending on level and difficulty.  The faction reward does increase with the level of the work order, level 69 work orders award 80 faction.</DIV><hr></blockquote>I have a feeling something wrong here:a.) We spend time more than adventure writs and have to dodge or kill many mobs to harvest / travel etc.. If this is so, why would not that effect Status?b.) Let's assume we did not spend time with harvesting and bought that materials, then why would not that included in cash rewards?c.) Unlike any other "writ" mobs, harvesting spots are not just taken by harvesters, also plat farmers, adventurers with hope of selling them with L1 tradeskilling.d.) We can't fail a adventure writ. e.) We can't do 2 tradeskill writ at same time unlike adventure writs.Either way, it is not any different than adventure writs is all I can say.<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:31 PM</span>

[Kenazeer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>Why are the faction and status rewards lower than adventure writs?</STRONG> - These are able to be completed in less than 10 minutes each.  The adventure writs are typically assumed to take about 30 - 60 minutes depending on level and difficulty.  The faction reward does increase with the level of the work order, level 69 work orders award 80 faction.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>I have a feeling something wrong here:<BR><BR>a.) We spend time more than adventure writs and have to dodge or kill many mobs to harvest / travel etc.. If this is so, why would not that effect Status?<BR><BR>b.) Let's assume we did not spend time with harvesting and bought that materials, then why would not that included in cash rewards?<BR><BR>c.) Unlike any other "writ" mobs, harvesting spots are not just taken by harvesters, also plat farmers, adventurers with hope of selling them with L1 tradeskilling.<BR><BR>d.) We can't fail a adventure writ. <BR><BR>e.) We can't do 2 tradeskill writ at same time unlike adventure writs.<BR><BR>Either way, it is not any different than adventure writs is all I can say. <P>Message Edited by selch on <SPAN class=date_text>08-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:31 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes. To borrow an industry catchphrase, they have underestimated the "total cost of ownership" in completing these writs. Harvesting is an intrinsic part of doing these writs and require a time committment.<p>Message Edited by Kenazeer on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 PM</span>

[Saroc_Luclin]

The need for the intial stage/the 2 step process makes sense now that you explained it. Instead of eating the items as soon as you finish them during the process, you may want to add a final step to the rush order "Deliver the X items to Person_Y", and that would be the stage to remove the items from your inventory (like it used to be). That way there is a way to recoup costs on failure.<div></div>

[Vodr]

Dymus I have a few ideas that I would like everyone to consider. I see that currently on test are the hardest writs and that after the base is set for these you will be able to select easier longer timed writs for just status and faction. Perhaps a solution similar to EQ1's LDoN adventures could be the perfect middleman.You would select your writ difficulty which as I see there are 3 levels of difficulty. You get say the 8 minutes to complete the writ and if you do then you get some profit, status, and faction. In LDoN if you failed to meet the timer you would be awarded extra time to get the minor award. Say you go past the 8 minutes, now you have failed however get an additional say 4 minutes to get the minor award which is lesser status and faction than you got for the main timer, cash could equivilate to either cost of fuels if you don't waste any or a slight loss of money if you don't get the main prize.This would make it easier for people to select writs as there wouldn't be say 6 different ones to choose from (cash+status+faction)(status+faction with extended time) to 3 of just selecting the level to choose from (easy, medium, hard) Just something to consider as it may also be easier to tune in the long run as needed with less code to manage.

[Steeler77]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why is the timer so aggressive?</STRONG> - The baseline difficulty needs to be determined before the other options appear for the rush work orders.  The ones on test right now should be the most difficult ones.  After all the functionality and rewards are tuned for these then the others with longer timers and lesser rewards will be added.  The number of variables needs to be limited at first before the rest of the options can be built. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why are these work orders not able to be deleted?</STRONG> - An oversight, they share the same quest category as the old City Tradeskill Tasks.  That will change and they will be able to be deleted soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why does the status value for the work orders change?</STRONG> - They should be based on your crafter level in relation to the level of the work order.  Similar to how adventure writs work in their status reward calculations.  There is a base value for the work order and as you level beyond it the status will diminish.  At the moment they are using adventure level for the work orders, that will be fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Thank you for clarification those things, always nice to see a dev in dialog. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why are the faction and status rewards lower than adventure writs?</STRONG> - These are able to be completed in less than 10 minutes each.  The adventure writs are typically assumed to take about 30 - 60 minutes depending on level and difficulty.  The faction reward does increase with the level of the work order, level 69 work orders award 80 faction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Not acceptable dear Dymus and dear devs. You forget those raws dont fall out of the sky :smileyvery-happy: Either we have to harvest them ourself or we buy them from other players. If I may lead you attention to the tradeskilling board were the problems of harvesting are discribed and discussed in lenght. If we buy the raws, we crafters need money. Money we get either by adventuring ourself or by crafting for the customer market, which takes time. I would say... exactly so much time as an adventure writ. Please do consider that points and make the writ exactly so much worth then the adventuring ones.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Dymus]

<DIV>I agree on the time factor of harvesting not being taken into account.  I'll be re-tuning the rewards adding in harvest time as well, those will go up on test along with several bug fixes overall.</DIV>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vodroc wrote:<BR><BR><BR>cash could equivilate to either cost of fuels if you don't waste any or a slight loss of money if you don't get the main prize.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No, no, no.  How much money do you lose if you dont complete an adventure writ?  Why is it ok that crafters 'break even' or can suffer a slight loss of cash for not finishing a writ?  Give me one good reason this is acceptable.</P> <P>Put timers on the adventure writs, if you fail to complete them, all the drops and cash you earned while doing them is deleted and, a fee, commiserate with your tier is deducted from your cash.</P> <P>How well do you think that would go over and how long would it take for the devs to reverse it?</P>

[Saroc_Luclin]

What do you mean by harvest time? Will the writ require us to go out and harvest X nodes and then do the crafting? If that's the case, I can't see how the entire writ could be timed. (But maybe if the harvest stage was untimed....)Or are you just going to give more/less credit since we also had harvesting, though it won't actually require harvesting?<div></div>

[Oakum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>I agree on the time factor of harvesting not being taken into account.  I'll be re-tuning the rewards adding in harvest time as well, those will go up on test along with several bug fixes overall.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thanks, I dont like buying from people who sell the one raw thats not cheap for alchy's which is roots because true TS'ers wont sell them and which means that they are usually being sold by those who act like plat farmers and steal nodes that others are trying to  harvest to sell them at very high prices.</P> <P> Specially in  T7 since all TS'ers need them but their are limited amounts of nodes to actually get them without clearing mobs first and watching your nodes get stolen as yo do. Then when you check the broker the person that was stealing nodes is selling the raws for more then can be made by selling the items made with them. </P> <P>Looking forward to finally getting writs.  May have to update my test character just to get a fix in. lol</P>

[ShaadDeNoir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why do I lose money on some writs instead of turn a profit?</STRONG> - The Calculations are off for some of them and need tuning.  However, if you burn more fuel than average you will stand a chance of cutting into your profit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>OK, here's what I don't understand.  How do you "<STRONG><FONT color=#ffff33>burn more fuel than average</FONT></STRONG>"?? If you are given a writ and you complete it in the required time, how do you burn fuel above the average?

[Vodr]

Well one good acceptable reason would be if you really want to compare apples and oranges. Adventure writs do not pay cash (unless you count the loot you can get in kills) however the writs themselves pay no monetary sum whatsoever.Tradeskill writs will be able to be done for profit, which is oranges.

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vodroc wrote:<BR><BR><BR>cash could equivilate to either cost of fuels if you don't waste any or a slight loss of money if you don't get the main prize.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No, no, no.  How much money do you lose if you dont complete an adventure writ?  Why is it ok that crafters 'break even' or can suffer a slight loss of cash for not finishing a writ?  Give me one good reason this is acceptable.</P> <P>Put timers on the adventure writs, if you fail to complete them, all the drops and cash you earned while doing them is deleted and, a fee, commiserate with your tier is deducted from your cash.</P> <P>How well do you think that would go over and how long would it take for the devs to reverse it?</P><hr></blockquote>

[Vodr]

Shaad, the writs require pristine, goof it up and make non pristine and you burned off extra fuel. Course the item could be vendored for the fuel costs because it didn't get yanked as the quest item.2nd thought however, if a combine is going very bad due to the RNG hating you, and since you are timed you may choose to quit the combine before any item is made thus consuming fuel.<p>Message Edited by Vodroc on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:27 PM</span>

[ZeyGnome]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>I agree on the time factor of harvesting not being taken into account.  I'll be re-tuning the rewards adding in harvest time as well, those will go up on test along with several bug fixes overall.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thank you for this.</P> <P>A tip for those testing right now on Test.  If you end up with a bad writ (as I did, the Divine Judgement one), let the timer fail, then exit the tradeskill instance.  You can delete the writ then for some odd reason, but at least it keeps things moving along.</P> <P>On the ability to delete the work order, yay!  But make it only deletable after you fail the writ please, making it deletable on select seems to open the way for possible exploitation.  I won't say why I think that publically, but since I have done over 50 of these already, I definitely see how this would be a bad thing to allow deletion without failing first.</P> <P>On failing, there really should be some way to recoup something.  Losing 7g a pop (at my level - 48 beeswax) because I lagged out or because of a bug is not a good thing.</P> <P>Did I ready you correctly, these are the hardest to set a baseline?  Does this mean that on Live there might be writs with a longer timer and lesser reward?  If this is the case, good.  If not, I do see a problem with the length because of the lag issue on the Live servers when the tradeskill instances are packed.  Since you are not able to craft in your house, you are limited to only a few instances that must be shared with 1000+ possible crafters on each shard.  Doesn't seem to be an issue on Test.</P> <P>Overall, I do like this system.  With the changes you already mentioned, it is coming along nicely.  The aggressive timer is nice, I just want to make sure that it is taken into account for people on a more crowded shard.</P> <P> </P>

[zorkan]

> Instead of eating the items as soon as you finish them during the process, you may want to add a final step to the rush order "Deliver the X items to Person_Y", and that > would be the stage to remove the items from your inventory (like it used to be). That way there is a way to recoup costs on failure.<div></div>This suggestion can't be stressed enough. I am pretty sure that losing everything if you fail will be a deal breaker for most playersand it is completely unreasonable. I also think it's more realistic if you have to hand in the produce. You could add 30 sec to thetime limit for the time needed to get to the npc. How do you explain the loss of the combines if the time limit is not met? I seriouslydon't see a way how to explain that. Are we supposed to throw the stuff away after we missed the dead line? Who would do that?I was looking forward to tradeskill writs and I hope this gets changed. I will not be using the system if I can lose a whole lot of money.Again, this is not meant as a flame. But the devs have to realize that this will be a deal breaker for most players and all theirinvested time coding the system could be wasted. The least they should do is compensate for fuel cost if you fail. It wouldhave to be explained with something along the line: "Disappointed that you didn't make the wares in time, you sell them tothe vendor for <coin> without thinking twice."

[ZeyGnome]

<DIV>How about this on the failure thing.  When a Writ is completed, a certificate is spawned in the crafter's inventory that they then have to turn in to the Foreman for the reward.  If the Writ is completed successfully, then they get the full, normal reward for successfully completing the Writ.  If they failed, then they get back the fuel costs only for the failed Writ, along with an admonishment from the Foreman about 'Having pity on them, but they must do a better job in the future or else!'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This way it would be the same thing as vendoring the items on a failure (no loss, no gain) .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a thought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>ShaadDeNoir wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why do I lose money on some writs instead of turn a profit?</STRONG> - The Calculations are off for some of them and need tuning.  However, if you burn more fuel than average you will stand a chance of cutting into your profit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>OK, here's what I don't understand.  How do you "<STRONG><FONT color=#ffff33>burn more fuel than average</FONT></STRONG>"?? If you are given a writ and you complete it in the required time, how do you burn fuel above the average?<hr></blockquote> By failing to get them pristine in your first combine.

[Calthine]

I gotta admire a Dev working so actively with the testers and a) admitting when something was forgotten and b) telling us when a suggestion is being used. 

[zorkan]

>I gotta admire a Dev working so actively with the testers and a) admitting when something was forgotten and b) telling us when a suggestion is being used. You should envy Devs for having people compliment them when they admit an error. Not many workers have such a friendly working environment.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(I realize this is off-topic, but so was the message I replied to, hehe)<div></div>

[Calthine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zorkan wrote:<BR>>I gotta admire a Dev working so actively with the testers and a) admitting when something was forgotten and b) telling us when a suggestion is being used. <BR><BR>You should envy Devs for having people compliment them when they admit an error. Not many workers have such a friendly working environment.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>(I realize this is off-topic, but so was the message I replied to, hehe)<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I've been a worker who never heard anything good.  You could do 19 great things and you'd only hear about the 1 mediocre one.  Credit where credit is due!

[zorkan]

> I've been a worker who never heard anything good.  You could do 19 great things and you'd only hear about the 1 mediocre one.  Credit where credit is due!I agree and my point was to - impliedly - compliment you on pointing out the good things. However, considering that we are talking aboutchanges on test server, revealing that one might have forgotten something, isn't really a big relevation that needed a lot of guts to admit.But I understand your desire to feed the devs some motivational credit on a thread that is filled with critics.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>Dymus wrote:<DIV>I agree on the time factor of harvesting not being taken into account.  I'll be re-tuning the rewards adding in harvest time as well, those will go up on test along with several bug fixes overall.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Thank you dearly and kindly regards

[Silelwen]

<P>People really need to stepback and think about these cash rewards.</P> <P>Every step in upping the cash rewards will only fuel farners and incase your avg raw price. We need to focus on status rewards and not coin reward. You have no idea what might happen, shall I remind people of 30s ashen roots that once sellback was fixed dropped to 1s within 2 days on almost all servers.</P> <P>Writs should not be done for exp, you should want to recoup fuel cost, maybe 1-2s per raw, get some nice status, and get the exp for doing it to help you advance. </P> <P>I need to bold this and re-iterate this!</P> <P><FONT size=4>No matter what you may think will happen, any profit from these writs will bring the higher raw prices and diminish your profit lines on all forms of crafting, not just your writ exp crafting! Depending on the profit line for these writs, I would expect AT LEAST a 1 to 25 time jump in raw cost once implemented. The farmers are watching!</FONT></P>

[selch]

And how does possibly stop "status" farmers then? Man, I have to remind you, you can do much much much more money without a cost in just killing adventure writ mobs.I don't think there is any difference there... "Selling L30 guild for $5000" <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Anyway as back to topic, old "merchant sale value" x somepercentage + status was nice setup. I'm pretty sure, that might make crafting something useful also either for a living (compared to time spent on Adventure for more money) and also contribution to guild.<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:27 PM</span>

[ZeyGnome]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Silelwen wrote:<BR> <P>People really need to stepback and think about these cash rewards.</P> <P>Every step in upping the cash rewards will only fuel farners and incase your avg raw price. We need to focus on status rewards and not coin reward. You have no idea what might happen, shall I remind people of 30s ashen roots that once sellback was fixed dropped to 1s within 2 days on almost all servers.</P> <P>Writs should not be done for exp, you should want to recoup fuel cost, maybe 1-2s per raw, get some nice status, and get the exp for doing it to help you advance. </P> <P>I need to bold this and re-iterate this!</P> <P><FONT size=4>No matter what you may think will happen, any profit from these writs will bring the higher raw prices and diminish your profit lines on all forms of crafting, not just your writ exp crafting! Depending on the profit line for these writs, I would expect AT LEAST a 1 to 25 time jump in raw cost once implemented. The farmers are watching!</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I disagree whole-heartedly.</P> <P>If you can delete the quest only after you fail, then the farmers can't use this new system for anything.</P> <P>Since you don't get the list of materials until just when the timer starts, there is no time to rewrite their bot script to make their scripts work.  This is a very dynamic quest, it is not something a farmer could do.</P> <P>Unless you mean farmer and in a person who busts their butt to harvest all their bags full, then spends all their time grinding out these writs.  If that is your definition, then I am a farmer.  That's not farming by the way, that's still grinding.</P> <P>And as it is right now (And I know this will change), any of the top writs lose considerable money.  This last Alchemist one I just did (second from the top tier) required 8g 29s 44c worth of fuel, and returned 6g 63s, 55c.  Thats a substantial loss.  There most assuredly needs to be a profit from these in a monetary sense.</P> <P>Have you tried this system?  If you haven't then don't make assumptions.  If you have, then please explain to everyone how something this dynamic can be used for plat farming.  It requires your full attention, both before (making sure you have all the mats necessary before you start) and during.  The tight timer and the way it is given assures that.</P> <P> </P>

[Kenazeer]

<blockquote><hr>Dymus wrote:<div>I agree on the time factor of harvesting not being taken into account.  I'll be re-tuning the rewards adding in harvest time as well, those will go up on test along with several bug fixes overall.</div><hr></blockquote>I have to give you credit. You are seemingly working very hard to make this work. <Thumbs Up><div></div>

[Ranvarenaya]

Any level 70 adventurer of any class can easily make over 1 plat an hour every hour they feel like it, just by killing solo mobs for junk vendor loot (with about as much risk of death as someone in a crafting zone if they pick the right spot).  How do these new writs compare to that at level 70?  If they don't return 1 plat per hour, are they really gonna be a huge draw for someone just interested in farming large amounts of coin? <div></div>

[Steeler77]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>I agree on the time factor of harvesting not being taken into account.  I'll be re-tuning the rewards adding in harvest time as well, those will go up on test along with several bug fixes overall.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Respect and my thanks for that decision. :smileyhappy:  </FONT>

[Rhona]

<font size="2">I freely admit that I'm not a level 70 Sage making level 10 spells with capped flowing thought, but I have timed makiing a series of white pristines while level grinding, without the added pressure of risking the loss of all components by taking too long to complete a series of combines.  My average time for 18 sequential combines as a level 37 Sage was 2:14 per combine <span>:smileysad:</span>  The slowest was almost four minutes (3:52).  I guess that means that Rhonara is woefully unprepared for any tradeskill writs at this time.  Let's hope that optimal strategies can be developed without wasting too many raws.Two suggestions that might be worthwhile to reduce griefing of folks trying to do the writs in the tradeskill instances:</font><ol><li><font size="2">Make all pets act like character toons in tradeskill instances.  Having to try to squeeze around them or having to try to jump on the carpenter workstations on the way to the writing desks is frustrating when just doing normal tradeskilling, let alone when trying to rush to avoid running out of writ time.  Being able to run straight through the pets would help a lot.</font></li><li><font size="2">Make dueling impossible in the tradeskill instances.  Encountering duelers with swarm pets in the short hallway between the doors on the way to the writing desks would, by itself, prevent making the time required for just about anyone doing a writ.  Hmmmm... Maybe that would be an eventual advantage for a Fey Sage?</font><font size="2"> </font></li></ol><div></div><font size="2">Oh, and is there any way to make the doors automatic?  Normal lag, without anyone grinding writs, makes it hard to target and operate the doors.  Perhaps a new Gnome tinkering development that somehow turns out to be completely reliable? <span>:smileywink:</span>Sincerely,Rho</font>

[lilmohi]

<DIV>I actually think it is a good thing if raws go up in price.  I personally like to harvest everything in an area and then sell what i don't need.  However if raws are only selling for 1cp each i'd rather destroy the item than clutter up my merchant with worthles items.  The fact that some items like roots now are worth 30-300x's more than other raws such as soft metals is in my opinion a ballance issue, and the recipes across the board need to be tweaked so that raws are more or less in equal demand.</DIV>

[grymmstone]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Laeal wrote:<BR> <DIV>Not trying to be pendatic about this, but if the timer does not start until one leisurely strolls through town, talks to a few friends and eventually arrives home to their crafting station to begin working on the order, it is not really a "rush order" at that point.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>But as a slow zoner... I would hate to flush a lot of time in Loading UI settings either!!!!

[Lydiae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>I agree on the time factor of harvesting not being taken into account.  I'll be re-tuning the rewards adding in harvest time as well, those will go up on test along with several bug fixes overall.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Cool.  I trust things will even out as usual.  The portenders of doom always find something to worry about. :smileyhappy:</P> <P>I don't mind losing everything on failure if the reward is good enough.  Keeps things interesting.</P>

[ZeyGnome]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rhonara wrote:<BR><FONT size=2>I freely admit that I'm not a level 70 Sage making level 10 spells with capped flowing thought, but I have timed makiing a series of white pristines while level grinding, without the added pressure of risking the loss of all components by taking too long to complete a series of combines.  My average time for 18 sequential combines as a level 37 Sage was 2:14 per combine <SPAN>:smileysad:</SPAN>  The slowest was almost four minutes (3:52).  I guess that means that Rhonara is woefully unprepared for any tradeskill writs at this time.  Let's hope that optimal strategies can be developed without wasting too many raws.<BR><BR>Two suggestions that might be worthwhile to reduce griefing of folks trying to do the writs in the tradeskill instances:<BR></FONT> <OL> <LI><FONT size=2>Make all pets act like character toons in tradeskill instances.  Having to try to squeeze around them or having to try to jump on the carpenter workstations on the way to the writing desks is frustrating when just doing normal tradeskilling, let alone when trying to rush to avoid running out of writ time.  Being able to run straight through the pets would help a lot.<BR></FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=2>Make dueling impossible in the tradeskill instances.  Encountering duelers with swarm pets in the short hallway between the doors on the way to the writing desks would, by itself, prevent making the time required for just about anyone doing a writ.  Hmmmm... Maybe that would be an eventual advantage for a Fey Sage?</FONT><FONT size=2><BR></FONT></LI></OL> <FONT size=2>Oh, and is there any way to make the doors automatic?  Normal lag, without anyone grinding writs, makes it hard to target and operate the doors.  Perhaps a new Gnome tinkering development that somehow turns out to be completely reliable? <SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN><BR><BR>Sincerely,<BR><BR>Rho</FONT><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Rhonara,</P> <P>For the longest time (way too long) I truly didn't understand how the whole issue/counter system worked, and I just stood in front of my machine and only hit a button when something popped up (the ol' whack-a-mole).  This led to extremely long combine times (and deadly boring with subcombines).  Some crafter finally explained about how you don't have to wait for the issue to pop up, that you could hit it at any time, and even use multiple counters together. </P> <P>I'm not saying that you are doing the whack-a-mole method, but that's the only thing that comes to mind when I see long combine times like that, because that's how it worked for me.</P> <P>If that's not it, then  I honestly have no idea why it is taking so long for you do do a single combine like that.  Have you tried doing the lowest of the Writs to try to get the hang of it? <BR></P>

[ZeyGnome]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lydiaele wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>I agree on the time factor of harvesting not being taken into account.  I'll be re-tuning the rewards adding in harvest time as well, those will go up on test along with several bug fixes overall.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Cool.  I trust things will even out as usual.  The portenders of doom always find something to worry about. :smileyhappy:</P> <P>I don't mind losing everything on failure if the reward is good enough.  Keeps things interesting.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Losing the harvestables is more than enough loss, thank you.  At my level, 7g is a lot to lose for a failure.  I shudder to think what a failure would cost for someone in their 60s.  </P> <P>No, you should not lose coin and the harvestables on a failure.  The tight timer and dynamic nature of the quest keeps it interesting enough.  It's not interesting to harvest for hours to do these writs and then lose money on top of that.</P> <P> </P>

[Prrasha]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>ShaadDeNoir wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Dymus wrote:<DIV> </DIV><DIV><STRONG>Why do I lose money on some writs instead of turn a profit?</STRONG> - The Calculations are off for some of them and need tuning.  However, if you burn more fuel than average you will stand a chance of cutting into your profit.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><HR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>OK, here's what I don't understand.  How do you "<STRONG><FONT color=#ffff33>burn more fuel than average</FONT></STRONG>"?? If you are given a writ and you complete it in the required time, how do you burn fuel above the average?<hr></blockquote>By failing to get them pristine in your first combine.<hr></blockquote>That should actually leave you with the non-pristine item to sell back to recoup fuel costs.Provisioners, tho, are asked to make about twice as much stuff per writ since they get 2 items per pristine. If you make them 1 at a time (400 progress for 1 crude item, versus 1000 progress for 2 at pristine), you can use twice as much fuel to get done a bit faster.<p>Message Edited by Pelarski on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:05 PM</span>

[liquid8r]

<P>How about when you talk to the second person to start the timer. That person gives you "writ coal" or whatever fuel you require for the writ. Make it no trade and no value also have the person give the exact amount of fuel, if you make a non pristine then you pay the additional fuel costs. This way you lose no money on a writ failure. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[ZeyGnome]

<P>Dymus, add another one to the bug list. (also /bugged)</P> <P>Advanced Journeyman Alchemist - Diving Dragon - not being recognized for the quest.  Doesn't eat the item, can't complete the quest.</P> <P>Fail.  Pity it was in the middle of the work order.</P> <P> </P>

[Rhona]

<div><blockquote><hr>ZeyGnome wrote:<div></div>I'm not saying that you are doing the whack-a-mole method, but that's the only thing that comes to mind when I see long combine times like that, because that's how it worked for me. <p>If that's not it, then  I honestly have no idea why it is taking so long for you do do a single combine like that.  Have you tried doing the lowest of the Writs to try to get the hang of it? </p><hr></blockquote><font size="2">I'm not whacking the moles <span>:smileyhappy:</span>  I've been using Calthine's documented methods ever since making TS level 10.I always start with all three durabiluty counters.  If I don't get a critical failure on the first round, I then switch to all three progress counters.  When power is at 40% or less, I switch to just using the two "powerless" counters of whichever phase I'm in.  If durability gets below 50% of the pristine line, I switch to durability counters until it's over 75%.  I never do less than two counters per round, always doing a required counter first.Sometimes it seems like the RNG is using the same criteria for tradeskilling as it uses for interrupts when soloing as a Templar.  Seems like (without detailed documentation to back this up) I get critical failures at the writing desk at about the same rate as I get interrupts to nukes/heals when attacking a herd of green deer <span>:smileymad:</span>.I'd hate to have to use a half of a gold worth of "bat" totem every time I tried to do a TS writ, but that might be what it would take.  The totem combined with level-appropriate drink (maybe 25 silver per writ) could let me use a power-consuming counter just about every round, at least when I remembered to take off my fightin' clothes (which I normally do when planning to craft, anyway).Thanks for the suggestion, though, and if there's a failure in my strategy, please let me know.Rho</font></div>

[ZeyGnome]

<P>Yep, that's pretty much how I do it too.  I don't have timing issues like you though.  Weird. (Edit: Unless agility figures into it for some strange reason.  I am Monk, very high agility)</P> <P>I'm done working with these right now.  Other than one specific writ, I have lost money on every writ so far (on successful ones I mean, raning from loss of 25s to 2g a success) and down 2p now, I am close to broke.  Once the changes go in and I do some hunting to pay for today, I'll be back in testing again.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by ZeyGnome on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:32 PM</span>

[Calthine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rhonara wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT size=2>I'm not whacking the moles <SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN>  I've been using Calthine's documented methods ever since making TS level 10.<BR><BR>I always start with all three durabiluty counters.  If I don't get a critical failure on the first round, I then switch to all three progress counters.  When power is at 40% or less, I switch to just using the two "powerless" counters of whichever phase I'm in.  If durability gets below 50% of the pristine line, I switch to durability counters until it's over 75%.  I never do less than two counters per round, always doing a required counter first.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Rho, it might be time to start experimenting with your Arts again.  I rarely if ever use *all* durability or all progress.  I've found some spify results using, say, a +dur/-progress and a + prog/% chance of success together.  So I might mix T6 and T7 arts in the same round.  If you're finding your session being really slow, I'd maybe start playing around and looking for something that might work better.  </P> <P>Pounding progress forces you to fall back eventually and pound durability, which slows you down.</P> <P>Oh, and thanks for the compliment <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Gave me warm fuzzies!<BR></P>

[Silelwen]

FARMERS AREN'T TYPICALLY BOTTERS!Sorry for all caps, but I must say this out loud! I work with a ton of non-english speaking harvest farmers. They reply quicker to tells than probably you or me do. I'm telling you, you are going to get this stuff shutdown faster than a wholesale bargain bin selling moonpies!I was good friends with the worldwide richest person ingame. He was the richest person ingame from about 3 months into release until about a year into release. At this point, he grew tired and left for other games. He is almost guaranteed the reason why writs were never implemented in T6. In about 3 months of writ crafting with 3 crafters he generated over 500 plat pre-DOF! He pretty much left when it looked like they would never implement writs, but he had already stockpiled 1,000s of materials for writs if they were to ever go live. He level'd to 60 of just making the materials for future writs on all his tradeskillers. He had calculated that he would of made over 1000 platinum the first 4 weeks writs would of been implemented!*PS Please subsititute Tasks for writs. I realize I got the word messed up and don't want to play semantics and correct them all =)<div></div>

[Aela@Test]

<DIV> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>I made a set of detailed /bug feedback on this, however wanted to post it here as well.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>I did a set of combines and found the following.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>The writ is timed, and you have a short period of time to finish it.  It's pretty tight, and have failed them about 30% of the time while making items near my level (level 40,41 crafter.. making 38-39 items).  </FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>Did the following on my level 41 woodworker, level 10 Trob.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>1)  First, I did a Apprentice Woodworker Writ:  It was level 20.  was asked to make 6 buckers (level 20).  It cost me 40s 32c.  The combines were grey, and I had little trouble with the time limit.  As a reward i got 20s 75c.  A loss of about 50%.  I also got 100 status, with 10 guild status.  </FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>2)  I then did a Talented Apprentice Woodworker Writ.  It was level 24, and also grey combines.   It asked me to make some staffs (3) and some arrows (75).  This cost me 25s 92c.  I also got 20s 75c as well as 100 status for this combine.  </FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>3)  I then did a Journeyman Woodworker Writ.  It was level 30, and had green combines.  I was asked to make 6 briarwood bucklers...  fuel cost of 1g 84s 32c.  As a reward, I got 1g 10s 59c.  This also gave me a loss in coin.  Again, time was not really an issue, and other then the loss of coin, nothing interesting up to this point.  (I also got 1000 status)</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>4)  Then I made an Advanced Journeyman Woodworker writ.  This is where it got interesting.  The writ was level 39 (I was 40th), and I was asked to make 75 throwing dagger (3 combines) and 3 bat totems.  When I made one bat totem combine I got 3 totems as a reward which updated all three needed totems (<FONT color=#ff3300>all writs ask for 6-7 items, I imagine this really wanted 9 totems, NOT THREE!!  This is a bug</FONT>).. plus the combine took one of the totem (as expected), however dropped two totems in my inv.  (another bug).  Keep in mind this is after giving me all three updates for the totem.  Due to this, I didn't have to do the other two combines... this quest was very easy on time, and I had no problem finishing it.  The throwing daggers went as expected, and I made 3 combines for my 75 daggers.  The entire cost of this attempt was 53s 76c (less then half the level 30 one!) and I got a reward of 6g 63s 55c (6x the reward of the level 30 writ).   The lower cost is due to the fact that the ammo only take 2 fuel and the totems only 4.  This lower fuel cost makes them much nicer the writs that ask for buckers/staves/wands...</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>5) I then repeated the level 39 writ few times to see if I always got the totems/ammo.  I was basically given  a combination of ammo, totems, or bows.  When given the bows, the cost was a lot higher.. but the reward was always 6. 63s.  I only got bows twice out of 8 other attempts.  When I leveled I hit 41, and the writs they gave me started to be level 40 instead of 39.  The level 40 writs asked for 6 buckers (t5), and cost me ~8g, but still only gave me 6g 63s (same as level 39).  I'm not sure if the reward is based on the writ level (i.e., Advanced Journeyman is always 6g..) or if it is based off the tier of the combines.... but I do know it doesn't take into account the fueled costs of the items you are making.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>As is, it's only worthwhile to do writs at the level were you have a lot of items that are low costs for combines (i.e., woodworker’s level 38-39)..  level 30-32 or 40-42 writs are a  total loss of money it seems.  I don't know where they get the total reward for each tier.. is it a measure of the average cost of materials within that tier?  I have no idea.  But as it stands, it seems like it needs some work.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>Right now, my woodworker is stuck on a level 40 writ.  She tried it 2 times, but hasn't been able to get past it.  She needs to make 6 level 41 items, and she can't get the combines to go quick enough to get it done in the time allowed (high blue and white combines are harder to finish).  So I decided it was a good time to stop.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>That said, the faction reward seems screwy also.  doing the level 20 writ I got 100 status, 30 writ 1000 status, and 39 writ 1600 status most times..  Except for the time I was actually doing the writ when I leveled from 40 to 41.  That time I had a level 39 writ, and when I turned it in, it told me a I had a level 10 writ (I did not), and it gave me 1g for it and 100 status.  I think the fact I leveled confused it?  I'm not sure.  </FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>Anyhow, I hope this info is helpful.  I know it's not answering a lot, but it's the data I pulled.  I also did /bug most of it, but it took multiple /bug reports to get it all in.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99></FONT></FONT></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>Aela MacBannon -  Mystic and Sage of Test</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>Alat-Seldi,  a test server guild</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99>(Woodworker name:  Eriae)</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffff99></FONT></FONT></FONT> </P></DIV>

[Silelwen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ranvarenaya wrote:Any level 70 adventurer of any class can easily make over 1 plat an hour every hour they feel like it, just by killing solo mobs for junk vendor loot (with about as much risk of death as someone in a crafting zone if they pick the right spot).  How do these new writs compare to that at level 70?  If they don't return 1 plat per hour, are they really gonna be a huge draw for someone just interested in farming large amounts of coin? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Farmers do not always go for the biggest bang for the buck. It's all about repetitiveness, guaranteed money, and anybody off the street can do it.</div>

[Seltha-Larren]

<P>I don't know if this is possible using the current EQ2 quest engine, but why don't you implement writs in the following way:</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff33>Please create us X items.</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>If you complete this writ within 8 minutes, the reward is X * Fuel + 20%.</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>If you complete this writ within 12 minutes, the reward is X * Fuel + 10%.</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>If you complete this writ within 16 minutes, the reward is X * Fuel + 5%.</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>Otherwise the reward is X * Fuel.</FONT></EM></LI></UL> <P>This way you still get the biggest reward for completing it within the tight constraint, a lesser reward for creating it slower, and your fuel cost back if you don't manage to create it within the allotted time.  You can tier the status point reward in the same way, halve the amount for each bracket you miss by and get no faction increase if you don't beat one of the timers.</P> <P> </P>

[Finora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P><FONT size=4>No matter what you may think will happen, any profit from these writs will bring the higher raw prices and diminish your profit lines on all forms of crafting, not just your writ exp crafting! Depending on the profit line for these writs, I would expect AT LEAST a 1 to 25 time jump in raw cost once implemented. The farmers are watching!</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I personally don't care at all what price people try to sell their raws for, I've only bought maybe 10 raws TOTAL ever (not stacks actual items) from the broker and never for more than a couple of silver. I have zero concern about harvest farmers jacking up prices, they can only sell them if people are willing to buy and if people aren't willing to pay then they will have to lower prices or just destroy them like many people do these days.</P> <P>I want crafters to have ways to make cash to support their habit other than flooding the market with goods that don't sell well in the first place or some other method of farming cash (like my lvl 17 on test farming gnolls in blackburrow for cash to be able to continue to afford to do writ testing =p).</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seltha wrote:<BR> <P>I don't know if this is possible using the current EQ2 quest engine, but why don't you implement writs in the following way:</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff33>Please create us X items.</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>If you complete this writ within 8 minutes, the reward is X * Fuel + 20%.</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>If you complete this writ within 12 minutes, the reward is X * Fuel + 10%.</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>If you complete this writ within 16 minutes, the reward is X * Fuel + 5%.</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>Otherwise the reward is X * Fuel.</FONT></EM></LI></UL> <P>This way you still get the biggest reward for completing it within the tight constraint, a lesser reward for creating it slower, and your fuel cost back if you don't manage to create it within the allotted time.  You can tier the status point reward in the same way, halve the amount for each bracket you miss by and get no faction increase if you don't beat one of the timers.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not sure either if they could do the muliple tiered reward system either but it would be logical.</P> <P>If they can't do the actual tiered completions .. they could always just go with a modified version.</P> <P>Option # 1</P> <UL> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>If you complete this writ within 8 minutes, the reward is X * Fuel + 20%</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>Otherwise the reward is X * Fuel. (or equal to vendor $$)</FONT></EM></LI></UL> <P>Option #2</P> <UL> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>If you complete this writ within 12 minutes, the reward is X * Fuel + 10%.</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>Otherwise the reward is  X * Fuel. (or equal to vendor $$)</FONT></EM></LI></UL> <P>Option #3</P> <UL> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>If you complete this writ within 16 minutes, the reward is X * Fuel + 5%.</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><EM><FONT color=#33cc33>Otherwise the reward is  X *Fuel. (or equal to vendor $$)</FONT></EM></LI></UL> <P>Basically, you would have (3) different Timers for each of the (4) different Writs for each tier set / sub-class.   'Tis only a small difference.  COPY & PASTE with just different $$$ / SP / Faction Rewards.</P> <P> </P> <P>Edit:  <STRIKE>removed the X* for the fail.  If you fail you should just get the cost of fuel back.  Otherwise, there would be people that did them just for the difference in vendor cost. </STRIKE> </P> <P>Nevermind .. read the X wrong.  You were referring to X = No. of Fuel used * Fuel Price.  which would equal vendor sell back price.  </P> <P>Message Edited by KerowynnKaotic on <SPAN class=date_text>08-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:23 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by KerowynnKaotic on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:53 PM</span>

[HazlenutElf]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Silelwen wrote:<BR> <P>People really need to stepback and think about these cash rewards.</P> <P>Every step in upping the cash rewards will only fuel farners and incase your avg raw price. We need to focus on status rewards and not coin reward. You have no idea what might happen, shall I remind people of 30s ashen roots that once sellback was fixed dropped to 1s within 2 days on almost all servers.</P> <P>Writs should not be done for exp, you should want to recoup fuel cost, maybe 1-2s per raw, get some nice status, and get the exp for doing it to help you advance. </P> <P>I need to bold this and re-iterate this!</P> <P><FONT size=4>No matter what you may think will happen, any profit from these writs will bring the higher raw prices and diminish your profit lines on all forms of crafting, not just your writ exp crafting! Depending on the profit line for these writs, I would expect AT LEAST a 1 to 25 time jump in raw cost once implemented. The farmers are watching!</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>QFE!</P> <P>broker prices on hanging roots fell from 30s to 1-2s overnight when writs were taken out, similar trends with rosewood, soft metal and gems<BR></P>

[EtoilePirate]

Did Tailor Work Order a few times tonight with a 44 Tailor / 70 Assassin.I know it's a known issue, but the payout was 6g 63s 55c ; the fuel cost for 6 items was 8g 29s 44c.Each time I did it, I was asked to make the same item: level 40 Pristine Tailored Rough Linen Cap.  I would have thought the recipes would have varied.+40 faction rewarded (and I'm well into the negative thanks to the way writs used to work Back In The Day), so it's a long, slow slog I have ahead of me.No trouble finishing 6 items in 8 minutes; I averaged between 55s and 1m45s remaining on the timer when I finished.Real items need to be created, and then taken.  That way when you fail and have no rewards you still have 5 hats to sell for fuel costs!  Fuel's very, very pricey as you level, too.  I shouldn't make more off of Basilisk Spikes and Arachnid Fangs looted from corpses in the Bonemire than I should earn for something I paid to make.The way it stands now, rewards for succeeding at the upper level will need to be 2x - 3x fuel costs to make even one failure worth the time and money.<div></div>

[selch]

<blockquote><hr>HazlenutElf wrote:<P>QFE!</P><P>broker prices on hanging roots fell from 30s to 1-2s overnight when writs were taken out, similar trends with rosewood, soft metal and gems</P><hr></blockquote><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Another doomsayer <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sorry but made me laugh a lot, it is not because of writs, it is because new harvesting system implemented at same day allowing you to pull 3 to 10 at a time.<p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:46 PM</span>

[ke'la]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HazlenutElf wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Silelwen wrote:<BR> <P>People really need to stepback and think about these cash rewards.</P> <P>Every step in upping the cash rewards will only fuel farners and incase your avg raw price. We need to focus on status rewards and not coin reward. You have no idea what might happen, shall I remind people of 30s ashen roots that once sellback was fixed dropped to 1s within 2 days on almost all servers.</P> <P>Writs should not be done for exp, you should want to recoup fuel cost, maybe 1-2s per raw, get some nice status, and get the exp for doing it to help you advance. </P> <P>I need to bold this and re-iterate this!</P> <P><FONT size=4>No matter what you may think will happen, any profit from these writs will bring the higher raw prices and diminish your profit lines on all forms of crafting, not just your writ exp crafting! Depending on the profit line for these writs, I would expect AT LEAST a 1 to 25 time jump in raw cost once implemented. The farmers are watching!</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>QFE!</P> <P>broker prices on hanging roots fell from 30s to 1-2s overnight when writs were taken out, similar trends with rosewood, soft metal and gems<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Um, if the price of raws is too high for you there is an easy way to get around it...</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=5><STRONG>GO OUT AND HARVEST IT YOURSELF</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>then its FREE.</P>

[Dymus]

<div></div><div></div>Thanks for the feedback thus far.  I am making a few changes to the writs but they won't be up for a few days.  (I'd like the weekend to balance the numbers a bit before they go up to test.)1.  The faction I'm levelling at 100 points per work order completion.  The scaling faction reward was an idea that is not as good in practice as it is in theory.  They will not be 150 like the old writs but the old writs did not also give out coin and status at the same time.2. The payout on test for the work orders are currently incorrect.  The problem will be fixed by the next major update to test.  There is a point at which the multiplier shifts incorrectly and then breaks the values for everything which comes after it.  This is why some of the work orders appear to pay the correct amounts, some are way too high, and others are way too low.  I've fixed that along with another change I'm going to be making which brings me to ....3.  The failure penalty.  The suggestion of being able to keep the items if you fail and sell them to a vendor unfortunately will not work with how this new system is set up.  Part of the goal of this system is to keep from having to store information on the character and retrieve it at turn-in time.  Everything should be centralized on the quest itself.  Items cannot be left in your inventory then have them removed, the possibilities and variety of what items are required to be made are very large.So instead, it's going to follow a different approach.  Within each 'step' of a work order it asks to make anywhere from 1 to 6 items.  After each of those 'steps' are completed within the work order it is going to give out a completion reward which pays back the fuel cost of that part.  If the timer happens to run out in the middle of a part you'll lose only the cost of what you had left in that part at the time, but all previous parts will have paid for their completion.  For successful completion of the work order it will give a reward for the level of the work order, this will be the total actual coin reward.  This should also allow more fine tuning for each individual work order if bugs arise.4.  The status reward for these is going to mirror the values for an equivalent level adventure writ.  With harvesting time figured into the completion of these they are either costly enough (if raw materials are bought from the broker) or the time investment is enough (if you gather your own materials) to justify the status.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Dymus on <span class="date_text">08-17-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:45 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Dymus on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 PM</span>

[Kegerian]

<DIV>I can't believe anyone thinks this is a good idea.  Timed tradeskill writs?!?  It doesn't matter what you do, that fact alone makes it impossible to truly balance them against adventure writs.  I was so excited when I heard that tradeskill writs would involve selling your crafted items to a special vendor (like status loot).  It would have allowed me to actually get something useful out of the junk items that don't sell well.  I have to rush enough in real life, why should I have to in something that is supposed to be recreational.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2cp  </DIV>

[Deila]

<P> </P> <P>I've run 10 of the Advanced Master Sage writs tonight so far. Level 70 Sage / 70 Necromancer, so am unaffected by adventuring level being used to determine rewards.</P> <P>Each of my level 69 writs calls for 6 randomly selected app IV scrolls, so far, varying from level 65-67 recipes. I'm seeing a mix of blue and white cons. Specific mix of spells has been different each time.</P> <P>Fuel costs per writ are 20g 73s 60c (with no failures or aborted attempts).</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#33cc00>Rewards:</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Each writ is rewarding me with:</P> <P>24g 88s 32c in coin<BR>19,800 status<BR>+80 Coalition of Tradesfolke faction</P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00><STRONG>Rewards Comments:</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>Glad to see that at least in this level range, the coin is not showing a loss - though I agree I'd like to see a raws valuation consideration included.</P> <P>I'm impressed with the amount of status being awarded. I'll still need to do more overall time-spent comparisons between these writs and adventuring writs, but thusfar - even with harvesting time included - it feels like I'm gaining far more status by doing tradeskill writs than adventuring writs net me, since back and forth travel time to the Overrealm adds up quickly. Note that I probably spend significantly less time harvesting than players on live servers do - we just have less competition for nodes on Test, and it's easy enough to harvest in greyed areas to not worry about petty fights with mobs over nodes. That may tip the scales a bit in favor of crafting writs on a status : hour spent ratio here on Test which may not be present on live servers.</P> <P>The faction gains <EM>feel</EM> low - though it's hard to tell right now if they're in line with adventuring writs based on time spent - since I can do more of the crafting writs in less time than adventuring writs. Again, much is dependent I think on overall time spent comparisons - travel, harvesting, etc.</P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00><STRONG>Timers and Success:</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>I think the timers do give a good sense of these writs being rush orders, and for my writs I've had plenty of time to successfully complete all 10 thusfar attempted, with between 2 - 2 1/2 minutes left to spare on each. I like that to complete these with relative ease requires good knowledge of the crafting process and wise use of reactive arts - these writs are not a gimme, and simple buff-spamming may not work out so well. Skilled crafter players will likely find them easy - others, maybe not so easy. If the writs we're testing now are set to be the most difficult, in my opinion they're in a pretty good difficulty range, all told - might even try tweaking them a bit harder by a touch, if these are to be the most difficult ones.</P> <P>Side note: In Freeport, Alchemists and Jewelers have an advantage. Their crafting stations are <EM>right there</EM> where they give the writs, whereas poor Sages have to run down all those stairs with precious time ticking away.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Minor point, and I do not suggest changing the start of the timers at all. Having the timer activatable at some later time would, to me, remove the sense of <EM><STRONG>rush order</STRONG></EM> that is currently present - and I think it's fun.</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#33cc00>Failure:</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Haven't failed one of these yet (even the time when I forgot to restock my fuels, and had to run aaaallll the way back up to the merchant, then aaaallll the way back down to the scribing desk), so I haven't felt the sting of loss on these. When I first was reading the post here on the new writs, I'd assumed that physical items would be produced, just like any other crafting combine - previous forms of writs included. I was surprised to learn that the items were being taken as they updated the writ.</P> <P>If it is intended that failing to complete the writ successfully should risk the loss of all raws and fuels used thusfar in the process, coin rewards may want to increase, as a more significant payoff for that risk when successful. If it's intended to be a gamble - your skills against the clock, putting your money where your mouth is - cool. Just let that gamble really pay off well, and have other writ types that are forthcoming be the 'safer bets'.</P> <P><STRIKE>If not intended to be such a gamble, then I'd recommend having the physical item created as well as the update, so that if someone fails the writ for time, LD, etc., they at least can sell back the products to the vendor to soften the monetary blow. In this case, the 'price of failure' is losing out on the status, faction, and profit margin, as well as having used up the raws, rather than eating fuel costs in addition to all that.</STRIKE></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Edit: Dymus is working late tonight! Just saw his post regarding the items/failure stuff - that went up while I was posting. Interesting solution - look forward to seeing how it plays out in practice.</FONT></P> <P>Personally though - I think it'd be cool to have one style of writs be really hard. Let them pay off huge if you can do it, let them sting if you fail. So long as there's another more 'stable' alternative to such a style, for the bread and butter writ work, I think that'd be a great addition to the game.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Deila on <span class=date_text>08-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:24 AM</span>

[mutschml]

<P>First I must admit I don't play on test, and read only this thread for the new writs. However I want to add, that it is easier and faster to create items, in the higher tiers. Why? Because you get better buffs for tradeskilling. When you get your +20 duration buffs, tradeskilling is getting much less risky, and the big progress buffs, make things much faster.</P> <P>As the above poster said, he never failed the writs at level 70, but at level 20-40 people have much more problems with the timer.</P> <P>my suggestion would be to do it like this:</P> <P>20-30: 9min</P> <P>30-40: 8.5min</P> <P>40+: 8min</P> <P>I think that would make the challenge more balanced. Especially since crafters might still learn how to use their buffs correctly in the range from 20-40.</P>

[ke'la]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kegerian wrote:<BR> <DIV>I can't believe anyone thinks this is a good idea.  Timed tradeskill writs?!?  It doesn't matter what you do, that fact alone makes it impossible to truly balance them against adventure writs.  I was so excited when I heard that tradeskill writs would involve selling your crafted items to a special vendor (like status loot).  It would have allowed me to actually get something useful out of the junk items that don't sell well.  I have to rush enough in real life, why should I have to in something that is supposed to be recreational.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2cp  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The addtion of the timer allows for the chance at failure wich alows them to give coin as well as Status and Faction. While the adventure writs only give status and faction, as such the chance of failure in TS writs is balance by the small profit you are suposed to be able to make from them. So taking that out of the equation as its been balanced out now its just a matter of Time invested for TS writs vers time invested for Adv writs.</P> <P>BTW Travel time should not matter as harvesters have to travel to those zones as well to get thier harvests, and as far as the yeah but you can harvest for more then one writ goes... well you can also go to those zones with more then 1 writ.</P>

[missionarymarr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mutschml wrote:<BR> <P>First I must admit I don't play on test, and read only this thread for the new writs. However I want to add, that it is easier and faster to create items, in the higher tiers. Why? Because you get better buffs for tradeskilling. When you get your +20 duration buffs, tradeskilling is getting much less risky, and the big progress buffs, make things much faster.</P> <P>As the above poster said, he never failed the writs at level 70, but at level 20-40 people have much more problems with the timer.</P> <P>my suggestion would be to do it like this:</P> <P>20-30: 9min</P> <P>30-40: 8.5min</P> <P>40+: 8min</P> <P>I think that would make the challenge more balanced. Especially since crafters might still learn how to use their buffs correctly in the range from 20-40.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree it might be a good idea to lengthen the timer on the lower level writs.</P> <P>I must say I am glad to see the changes proposed in the last reply from Dymus it let's me know he is paying attention and really trying to make them useful. With the changes he proposes if they work correctly I think this system will be much more useful then originally put to test and I definately would be using it for when I need to grind through a level.<BR></P>

[gm9]

<blockquote><hr>mutschml wrote:...it is easier and faster to create items, in the higher tiers. Why? Because you get better buffs for tradeskilling.<hr></blockquote>Not on my tradeskillers, the best buffs are usually in the low to mid range. And writs are 20+, so durability buffs are available to everyone.

[Finora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mutschml wrote:<BR> <P>First I must admit I don't play on test, and read only this thread for the new writs. However I want to add, that it is easier and faster to create items, in the higher tiers. Why? Because you get better buffs for tradeskilling. When you get your +20 duration buffs, tradeskilling is getting much less risky, and the big progress buffs, make things much faster.</P> <P>As the above poster said, he never failed the writs at level 70, but at level 20-40 people have much more problems with the timer.</P> <P>my suggestion would be to do it like this:</P> <P>20-30: 9min</P> <P>30-40: 8.5min</P> <P>40+: 8min</P> <P>I think that would make the challenge more balanced. Especially since crafters might still learn how to use their buffs correctly in the range from 20-40.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm actually 17 adv/34 tailor on test and I also had zero issue finishing in the time allotted and actually had quiet a bit of time to spare. Honestly, people should learn to use their buffs correctly (which can be completely different between people) while you are leveling up. That shouldn't even be factored into the equation where writs are concerned. </P> <P>A side note about the better buffs at higher tiers, that doesn't hold true for all classes. I know at least some have t6/t7 buffs that are actually inferior to lower level buffs.</P> <P>Dymus, I'm really happy to see some of the changes you are intending to work in. I think that might possibly make them quite enjoyable, at least for people like me. =)<BR> </P><p>Message Edited by Calendri on <span class=date_text>08-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:55 AM</span>

[Aela@Test]

<P><EM>Quote:</EM></P> <P><EM>Glad to see that at least in this level range, the coin is not showing a loss - though I agree I'd like to see a raws valuation consideration included.</EM></P> <P><EM>I'm impressed with the amount of status being awarded. I'll still need to do more overall time-spent comparisons between these writs and adventuring writs, but thusfar - even with harvesting time included - it feels like I'm gaining far more status by doing tradeskill writs than adventuring writs net me, since back and forth travel time to the Overrealm adds up quickly. Note that I probably spend significantly less time harvesting than players on live servers do - we just have less competition for nodes on Test, and it's easy enough to harvest in greyed areas to not worry about petty fights with mobs over nodes. That may tip the scales a bit in favor of crafting writs on a status : hour spent ratio here on Test which may not be present on live servers.</EM></P> <P><EM></EM> </P> <P>As stated in my other post, I'm pretty sure that the coin is based off some calcualation of fuel costs at a level.  For sages, their costs on their combines are all the same, so the avg cost is always the same for you.  I imagine if you went back and did the level 30-40 writs (I haven't had a chance with my sage) you'd see you didn't loose money either.  The problem comes from classes that use varying fuels for different items (as a woodworker, some of my crafting uses 8 fuels, some uses 2!)  When I use 8 fuels, I lose a lot of coin (50% or so)...but when asked to make things with 2 fuels i make money.  This is where the problem is.</P>

[SeBazNitch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> Thanks for the feedback thus far.  I am making a few changes to the writs but they won't be up for a few days.  (I'd like the weekend to balance the numbers a bit before they go up to test.)<BR><BR>1.  The faction I'm levelling at 100 points per work order completion.  The scaling faction reward was an idea that is not as good in practice as it is in theory.  They will not be 150 like the old writs but the old writs did not also give out coin and status at the same time.<BR><BR>2. The payout on test for the work orders are currently incorrect.  The problem will be fixed by the next major update to test.  There is a point at which the multiplier shifts incorrectly and then breaks the values for everything which comes after it.  This is why some of the work orders appear to pay the correct amounts, some are way too high, and others are way too low.  I've fixed that along with another change I'm going to be making which brings me to ....<BR><BR>3.  The failure penalty.  The suggestion of being able to keep the items if you fail and sell them to a vendor unfortunately will not work with how this new system is set up.  Part of the goal of this system is to keep from having to store information on the character and retrieve it at turn-in time.  Everything should be centralized on the quest itself.  Items cannot be left in your inventory then have them removed, the possibilities and variety of what items are required to be made are very large.<BR><BR>So instead, it's going to follow a different approach.  Within each 'step' of a work order it asks to make anywhere from 1 to 6 items.  After each of those 'steps' are completed within the work order it is going to give out a completion reward which pays back the fuel cost of that part.  If the timer happens to run out in the middle of a part you'll lose only the cost of what you had left in that part at the time, but all previous parts will have paid for their completion.  For successful completion of the work order it will give a reward for the level of the work order, this will be the total actual coin reward.  This should also allow more fine tuning for each individual work order if bugs arise.<BR><BR>4.  The status reward for these is going to mirror the values for an equivalent level adventure writ.  With harvesting time figured into the completion of these they are either costly enough (if raw materials are bought from the broker) or the time investment is enough (if you gather your own materials) to justify the status.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Dymus on <SPAN class=date_text>08-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:45 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Dymus on <SPAN class=date_text>08-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:55 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1. The only reason that I and many others would even do these would be for faction.  The example of status that I saw someone post was like 19k+.  Seems a bit much, cut the status and increase the faction to at least 150.  There are plenty of ways for us to get status and only one way to get faction, and for those of us that are now 70 and could not grind faction while leveling since you guys took over a month to add a timer (yes you are making writs more dynamic and fun but seriously, people only complained when they were gone because they couldn't grind faction), this is quite disappointing.  If the lower faction is based on it takes less time to complete than adventure writs, then take into consideration the fact that we have to harvest and on pvp servers, that can be just as challenging as doing writs.  I see you are making this consideration for status, why not faction?</P> <P>Joshuar<BR></P>

[SeBazNitch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Delphar7 wrote:<BR>I would not be one to presume, but...<BR><BR>If one were to assume timers are an attempt to thwart craft-bots, one would want the timer to start as soon as the 'dynamic' part of the quest starts, not allowing enough time for a botter to do the manual config required.<BR><BR>This is just a guess of course... but if it approaches being correct, I think you can assume it would not be reasonable to defer starting the timer until after 1 item has been made/started.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I doubt botters even figured into this equation.  I have yet to see or even hear about any botters being banned, punished, talked to or anything.  Same with plat farmers/sellers and botters on the adventure side.  SOE doesn't have the resources to protect our gaming experience from these people.  If they really wanted to cut their income flow from these folks that violate the EULA all they would have to do is hire me or someone like me (average intelligence or better) and that person could identify and remove these people from all servers in like a month.  Nearly every level 70 on any server knows who these people are on their servers.

[EnchanterB]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Dymus wrote:<div></div><div></div>Thanks for the feedback thus far.  I am making a few changes to the writs but they won't be up for a few days.  (I'd like the weekend to balance the numbers a bit before they go up to test.)1.  The faction I'm levelling at 100 points per work order completion.  The scaling faction reward was an idea that is not as good in practice as it is in theory.  They will not be 150 like the old writs but the old writs did not also give out coin and status at the same time.<hr></blockquote><font color="#ccccff"></font><font color="#ccccff">A small point of contention, Dymus:</font><font color="#ccccff"></font><font color="#ccccff"></font><font color="#ccccff">The old city writs not only gave out more faction, but personal status (600+ @ T7) and coin (at a profit).</font></div><p>Message Edited by EnchanterB on <span class=date_text>08-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 AM</span>

[Silelwen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeBazNitch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Delphar7 wrote:<BR>I would not be one to presume, but...<BR><BR>If one were to assume timers are an attempt to thwart craft-bots, one would want the timer to start as soon as the 'dynamic' part of the quest starts, not allowing enough time for a botter to do the manual config required.<BR><BR>This is just a guess of course... but if it approaches being correct, I think you can assume it would not be reasonable to defer starting the timer until after 1 item has been made/started.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I doubt botters even figured into this equation.  I have yet to see or even hear about any botters being banned, punished, talked to or anything.  Same with plat farmers/sellers and botters on the adventure side.  SOE doesn't have the resources to protect our gaming experience from these people.  If they really wanted to cut their income flow from these folks that violate the EULA all they would have to do is hire me or someone like me (average intelligence or better) and that person could identify and remove these people from all servers in like a month.  Nearly every level 70 on any server knows who these people are on their servers.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm pretty sure you are talking about these bannings in reference to WoW and their like monthly banning announcements... However you need to put some things in perspective. It took me a while to realize this also... so here it goes:</P> <P>WoW bans 5400 accounts!!!!!</P> <P>But you need to realize that WoW has 6.6million accounts to ban from. So they banned 0.081% of their playerbase</P> <P>Now let's assume the 185,000 subscribers for EQ2 (based off mmorpgchart.com) is accurate:</P> <P>0.081% of 185,000 is only 150... Not really newsworthy when your competition gets to use numbers in the 1000s, and suspensions in the 10,000s.</P> <P>I'm sure their banning them, but it's not in their best interest to release such a small number because the average player will think they aren't really banning enough people because the discrepancy in population between the two reports is so disproportional.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[UniformMarsha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeBazNitch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Delphar7 wrote:<BR>I would not be one to presume, but...<BR><BR>If one were to assume timers are an attempt to thwart craft-bots, one would want the timer to start as soon as the 'dynamic' part of the quest starts, not allowing enough time for a botter to do the manual config required.<BR><BR>This is just a guess of course... but if it approaches being correct, I think you can assume it would not be reasonable to defer starting the timer until after 1 item has been made/started.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I doubt botters even figured into this equation.  I have yet to see or even hear about any botters being banned, punished, talked to or anything.  Same with plat farmers/sellers and botters on the adventure side.  SOE doesn't have the resources to protect our gaming experience from these people.  If they really wanted to cut their income flow from these folks that violate the EULA all they would have to do is hire me or someone like me (average intelligence or better) and that person could identify and remove these people from all servers in like a month.  Nearly every level 70 on any server knows who these people are on their servers.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually, I have seen a banning once.  Botting Alchemists in the Freeport tradeskiller, I reported them, got a CSR to look at em for an entire weekend.  They were gone Monday, havent seen em since.

[Bratface]

<div><blockquote><hr>SeBazNitch wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Dymus wrote: <div></div> <div></div>Thanks for the feedback thus far.  I am making a few changes to the writs but they won't be up for a few days.  (I'd like the weekend to balance the numbers a bit before they go up to test.)1.  The faction I'm levelling at 100 points per work order completion.  The scaling faction reward was an idea that is not as good in practice as it is in theory.  They will not be 150 like the old writs but the old writs did not also give out coin and status at the same time.2. The payout on test for the work orders are currently incorrect.  The problem will be fixed by the next major update to test.  There is a point at which the multiplier shifts incorrectly and then breaks the values for everything which comes after it.  This is why some of the work orders appear to pay the correct amounts, some are way too high, and others are way too low.  I've fixed that along with another change I'm going to be making which brings me to ....3.  The failure penalty.  The suggestion of being able to keep the items if you fail and sell them to a vendor unfortunately will not work with how this new system is set up.  Part of the goal of this system is to keep from having to store information on the character and retrieve it at turn-in time.  Everything should be centralized on the quest itself.  Items cannot be left in your inventory then have them removed, the possibilities and variety of what items are required to be made are very large.So instead, it's going to follow a different approach.  Within each 'step' of a work order it asks to make anywhere from 1 to 6 items.  After each of those 'steps' are completed within the work order it is going to give out a completion reward which pays back the fuel cost of that part.  If the timer happens to run out in the middle of a part you'll lose only the cost of what you had left in that part at the time, but all previous parts will have paid for their completion.  For successful completion of the work order it will give a reward for the level of the work order, this will be the total actual coin reward.  This should also allow more fine tuning for each individual work order if bugs arise.4.  The status reward for these is going to mirror the values for an equivalent level adventure writ.  With harvesting time figured into the completion of these they are either costly enough (if raw materials are bought from the broker) or the time investment is enough (if you gather your own materials) to justify the status. <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Dymus on <span class="date_text">08-17-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:45 PM</span></p> <p>Message Edited by Dymus on <span class="date_text">08-17-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:55 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>1. <u>The only reason that I and many others would even do these would be for faction</u>.  The example of status that I saw someone post was like 19k+.  Seems a bit much, cut the status and increase the faction to at least 150.  There are plenty of ways for us to get status and only one way to get faction, and for those of us that are now 70 and could not grind faction while leveling since you guys took over a month to add a timer (yes you are making writs more dynamic and fun but seriously, people only complained when they were gone because they couldn't grind faction), this is quite disappointing.  If the lower faction is based on it takes less time to complete than adventure writs, then take into consideration the fact that we have to harvest and on pvp servers, that can be just as challenging as doing writs.  I see you are making this consideration for status, why not faction?</p> <p>Joshuar</p><hr></blockquote>I have to agree with this, I don't need money or status, I have plenty of both, but faction is something I really want.But instead of shifting the amounts, can we have a choice of rewards? Like all faction, all coin, all status or the standard mix of all three? With the variable reason that people have for doint writs it seems more player-friendly to give them choices about the reward, because even in real life not everyone does the same thing for the same reason. Ideally one could receive their workorders based on what they want in return, you go to the NPC and the dialog asks you to choose what reward you are seeking to earn from your service and you get a workorder that rewards you appropriately.But I know I am dreaming.....</div>

[slyfer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deila wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>I've run 10 of the Advanced Master Sage writs tonight so far. Level 70 Sage / 70 Necromancer, so am unaffected by adventuring level being used to determine rewards.</P> <P>Each of my level 69 writs calls for 6 randomly selected app IV scrolls, so far, varying from level 65-67 recipes. I'm seeing a mix of blue and white cons. Specific mix of spells has been different each time.</P> <P>Fuel costs per writ are 20g 73s 60c (with no failures or aborted attempts).</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#33cc00>Rewards:</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Each writ is rewarding me with:</P> <P>24g 88s 32c in coin<BR>19,800 status<BR>+80 Coalition of Tradesfolke faction</P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00><STRONG>Rewards Comments:</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>Glad to see that at least in this level range, the coin is not showing a loss - though I agree I'd like to see a raws valuation consideration included.</P> <P>I'm impressed with the amount of status being awarded. I'll still need to do more overall time-spent comparisons between these writs and adventuring writs, but thusfar - even with harvesting time included - it feels like I'm gaining far more status by doing tradeskill writs than adventuring writs net me, since back and forth travel time to the Overrealm adds up quickly. Note that I probably spend significantly less time harvesting than players on live servers do - we just have less competition for nodes on Test, and it's easy enough to harvest in greyed areas to not worry about petty fights with mobs over nodes. That may tip the scales a bit in favor of crafting writs on a status : hour spent ratio here on Test which may not be present on live servers.</P> <P>The faction gains <EM>feel</EM> low - though it's hard to tell right now if they're in line with adventuring writs based on time spent - since I can do more of the crafting writs in less time than adventuring writs. Again, much is dependent I think on overall time spent comparisons - travel, harvesting, etc.</P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00><STRONG>Timers and Success:</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>I think the timers do give a good sense of these writs being rush orders, and for my writs I've had plenty of time to successfully complete all 10 thusfar attempted, with between 2 - 2 1/2 minutes left to spare on each. I like that to complete these with relative ease requires good knowledge of the crafting process and wise use of reactive arts - these writs are not a gimme, and simple buff-spamming may not work out so well. Skilled crafter players will likely find them easy - others, maybe not so easy. If the writs we're testing now are set to be the most difficult, in my opinion they're in a pretty good difficulty range, all told - might even try tweaking them a bit harder by a touch, if these are to be the most difficult ones.</P> <P>Side note: In Freeport, Alchemists and Jewelers have an advantage. Their crafting stations are <EM>right there</EM> where they give the writs, whereas poor Sages have to run down all those stairs with precious time ticking away.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Minor point, and I do not suggest changing the start of the timers at all. Having the timer activatable at some later time would, to me, remove the sense of <EM><STRONG>rush order</STRONG></EM> that is currently present - and I think it's fun.</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#33cc00>Failure:</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Haven't failed one of these yet (even the time when I forgot to restock my fuels, and had to run aaaallll the way back up to the merchant, then aaaallll the way back down to the scribing desk), so I haven't felt the sting of loss on these. When I first was reading the post here on the new writs, I'd assumed that physical items would be produced, just like any other crafting combine - previous forms of writs included. I was surprised to learn that the items were being taken as they updated the writ.</P> <P>If it is intended that failing to complete the writ successfully should risk the loss of all raws and fuels used thusfar in the process, coin rewards may want to increase, as a more significant payoff for that risk when successful. If it's intended to be a gamble - your skills against the clock, putting your money where your mouth is - cool. Just let that gamble really pay off well, and have other writ types that are forthcoming be the 'safer bets'.</P> <P><STRIKE>If not intended to be such a gamble, then I'd recommend having the physical item created as well as the update, so that if someone fails the writ for time, LD, etc., they at least can sell back the products to the vendor to soften the monetary blow. In this case, the 'price of failure' is losing out on the status, faction, and profit margin, as well as having used up the raws, rather than eating fuel costs in addition to all that.</STRIKE></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Edit: Dymus is working late tonight! Just saw his post regarding the items/failure stuff - that went up while I was posting. Interesting solution - look forward to seeing how it plays out in practice.</FONT></P> <P>Personally though - I think it'd be cool to have one style of writs be really hard. Let them pay off huge if you can do it, let them sting if you fail. So long as there's another more 'stable' alternative to such a style, for the bread and butter writ work, I think that'd be a great addition to the game.</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Deila on <SPAN class=date_text>08-18-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:24 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>+80 Coalition of Tradesfolke faction seems a bit low to get to 40,000 status that would take 500 writs.  That seems like a bit much.  How does this compaire to adventure writs.  How many writs for adventrue does it take to get to 40,000.  The only reason I would do the writs is to get to Max ally.

[Lydiae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ZeyGnome wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lydiaele wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>I agree on the time factor of harvesting not being taken into account.  I'll be re-tuning the rewards adding in harvest time as well, those will go up on test along with several bug fixes overall.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Cool.  I trust things will even out as usual.  The portenders of doom always find something to worry about. :smileyhappy:</P> <P>I don't mind losing everything on failure if the reward is good enough.  Keeps things interesting.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Losing the harvestables is more than enough loss, thank you.  At my level, 7g is a lot to lose for a failure.  I shudder to think what a failure would cost for someone in their 60s.  </P> <P>No, you should not lose coin and the harvestables on a failure.  The tight timer and dynamic nature of the quest keeps it interesting enough.  It's not interesting to harvest for hours to do these writs and then lose money on top of that.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm not a min/maxxer, I'm playing a game with play money, not running a business. As long as I can make money/status and faction in the long run I can put up with failures that sting.  </P> <P>This should be a bit of a gamble, however unlike at a casino it should be rigged such that the player makes money if they keep at it.</P>

[Bhagpuss]

Timers are idiotic.Nothing in EQ2 should have timers, period. I will be doing some writs for Testing purposes, but after that they will be consigned to the "content I have no interest in using" bin. No loss to me, as that's where the old, untimed writs also resided.

[Elorah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EnchanterB wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> Thanks for the feedback thus far.  I am making a few changes to the writs but they won't be up for a few days.  (I'd like the weekend to balance the numbers a bit before they go up to test.)<BR><BR>1.  The faction I'm levelling at 100 points per work order completion.  The scaling faction reward was an idea that is not as good in practice as it is in theory.  They will not be 150 like the old writs but the old writs did not also give out coin and status at the same time.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ccccff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccccff>A small point of contention, Dymus:</FONT><FONT color=#ccccff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccccff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccccff>The old city writs not only gave out more faction, but personal status (600+ @ T7) and coin (at a profit).<BR></FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by EnchanterB on <SPAN class=date_text>08-18-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:12 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I was about to post that myself.  On a T7 Carpenter writ, I gained 150 Faction, some status and 34 gp +some change...</P> <P>I miss my writs of old....  But at least these new ones will help level my WW and my Tailor <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Kenazeer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Elorah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EnchanterB wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> Thanks for the feedback thus far.  I am making a few changes to the writs but they won't be up for a few days.  (I'd like the weekend to balance the numbers a bit before they go up to test.)<BR><BR>1.  The faction I'm levelling at 100 points per work order completion.  The scaling faction reward was an idea that is not as good in practice as it is in theory.  They will not be 150 like the old writs but the old writs did not also give out coin and status at the same time.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ccccff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccccff>A small point of contention, Dymus:</FONT><FONT color=#ccccff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccccff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccccff>The old city writs not only gave out more faction, but personal status (600+ @ T7) and coin (at a profit).<BR></FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by EnchanterB on <SPAN class=date_text>08-18-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:12 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I was about to post that myself.<STRONG>  On a T7 Carpenter writ, I gained 150 Faction, some status and 34 gp +some change...</STRONG></P> <P>I miss my writs of old....  But at least these new ones will help level my WW and my Tailor <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>When it is all said and done it will interesting to do a point by point comparison (status, faction, coin, writs per unit time) of the old vs. the new systems given the emphasis they have placed on the timer allowing them to "increase" rewards. I am cautiously optimistic these are not empty promises.<BR><p>Message Edited by Kenazeer on <span class=date_text>08-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:53 AM</span>

[Looker1010]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <P>Thanks for the feedback thus far.  I am making a few changes to the writs but they won't be up for a few days.  (I'd like the weekend to balance the numbers a bit before they go up to test.)<BR><BR>1.  The faction I'm levelling at 100 points per work order completion.  The scaling faction reward was an idea that is not as good in practice as it is in theory.  They will not be 150 like the old writs but the old writs did not also give out coin and status at the same time.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Umm, wrong. The old writs gave 150 faction, guild status and a profit of as much as 50% above fuel costs. I got my guild from level 18 to level 20 solely on crafting writs.</FONT><BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>Message Edited by Looker1010 on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:05 AM</span>

[Silelwen]

The one thing I will comment on these writs is they do seem to be very nice for leveling. It looks like this is one more step in alleviating the need to sell to customers... (LOL isn't this the entire point of crafting? Gah SOE has lost their vision)... but anyways, the old writs had the repeat timers on them so it wasn't very easy to use them to grind your exp from. These 8 minute rush orders will probably be about right to continuously grind items. I guess this is one way to eliminate people from whining that handcrafted blows... lol now it will appear that it was never meant to be wore by anybody, just to fill writs =)<div></div>

[Bratface]

<div><blockquote><hr>Looker1010 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Dymus wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <p>Thanks for the feedback thus far.  I am making a few changes to the writs but they won't be up for a few days.  (I'd like the weekend to balance the numbers a bit before they go up to test.)1.  The faction I'm levelling at 100 points per work order completion.  The scaling faction reward was an idea that is not as good in practice as it is in theory.  They will not be 150 like the old writs but the old writs did not also give out coin and status at the same time.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Umm, wrong. The old writs gave 125 faction, guild status and a profit of as much as 50% above fuel costs. I got my guild from level 18 to level 20 solely on crafting writs.</font></p> <hr> </blockquote>I remember getting 150 for TS writs on my tailor, jeweler and sage, I dont remember getting 125 for any writ for any faction, and the priest/mage/scout/fights all give 150 faction as well.</blockquote></div>

[Obadiah]

<P>Course the old ones had the time restrictions. Once every what, half hour? Without those limits you can still do 3 or 4 of these tradeskill writs to every 1 adventuring one. So you're still gaining faction twice as fast while making comparable (it seems) coin and earning far more status points (if it's still 19.8K at the upper levels). The tradeskill faction titles will still be the easiest to gain.</P> <P>I did 6 adventuring writs the other night in Bonemire. Easiest writ in the world - 15 vornerous drones. Each one earned me from 1-6G total in drops. Some of the numbers posted earlier for adventuring writ earnings are a bit crazy.</P>

[Kegerian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ke'la wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kegerian wrote:<BR> <DIV>I can't believe anyone thinks this is a good idea.  Timed tradeskill writs?!?  It doesn't matter what you do, that fact alone makes it impossible to truly balance them against adventure writs.  I was so excited when I heard that tradeskill writs would involve selling your crafted items to a special vendor (like status loot).  It would have allowed me to actually get something useful out of the junk items that don't sell well.  I have to rush enough in real life, why should I have to in something that is supposed to be recreational.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2cp  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The addtion of the timer allows for the chance at failure wich alows them to give coin as well as Status and Faction. While the adventure writs only give status and faction, as such the chance of failure in TS writs is balance by the small profit you are suposed to be able to make from them. So taking that out of the equation as its been balanced out now its just a matter of Time invested for TS writs vers time invested for Adv writs.</P> <P>BTW Travel time should not matter as harvesters have to travel to those zones as well to get thier harvests, and as far as the yeah but you can harvest for more then one writ goes... well you can also go to those zones with more then 1 writ.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, I have read every post in this thread.  I've read the rationale for the timer and I still say that you can add whatever you want and it is still unbalanced.  There are alot of people like me that play casually and have constant interruptions while playing.  Anything timed is almost impossible for us to do.  What should happen is a system similar to the old one implemented along side the new one so people can do what works for them.

[Heattanu]

<P>I did some of the tradeskill writs last night as a 51 sage, 50 fury. I was given 6 choices of difficulty (from easiest to hardest):</P> <P>talented journeyman<BR>advanced journeyman<BR>sage<BR>talented sage<BR>advanced sage<BR>senior sage</P> <P>I find the difficulty levels a bit confusing as other people have also reported apprentice levels and master levels, which were not part of the choices offered to me.</P> <P>Items I used to supplement my tradeskilling power and skill (the limiting factor in completing the writs on time):</P> <P>the Fallen Dynasty tradeskill quest reward which boosted by scribing skill by +10<BR>level 50 drink (as a level 50 adventurer, I think I should have been using level 60 drink)<BR>manastone (power for health conversion between combines)<BR>I removed my equipment (armor, jewelry, weapons) after my 2nd writ to help improve power regen. This was improved the amount of power left after every combine from <5% (with equipment) to 40-50% (without equipment).</P> <P><BR>For the talented sage workorder (1 completed successfully):</P> <P>quest level 44<BR>crafted level 41-42 spells (T5 fuel)<BR>reward: 6g, 63s, 55c; 5850 status, +45 faction<BR>fuel cost: 8g, 29s, 44c<BR>net LOSS: 1g, 65s, 89c<BR>I had no problem finishing these within the time limit.</P> <P><BR>For advanced sage workorders (I did 3 writs at this level):</P> <P>level 49 quest<BR>crafted level 46 spells (T5 fuel)<BR>reward: 13g, 27s, 10c; 6610 status, +50 faction<BR>fuel cost: 8g, 29s, 44c<BR>net GAIN: 4g, 97s, 66c<BR>I finished these with <10 sec to 2 minutes left. The <10 sec try was my first writ with all my equipment on. I had 2 minutes lead once I took off all equipment to help power limitations.</P> <P><BR>For senior sage workorders (1 completed, hardest level offered to 51 sage):</P> <P>level 50 quest<BR>crafted level 50 spells (T6 fuel)<BR>reward: 13g, 27s, 10c; 8000 status; +55 faction<BR>fuel cost: 13g, 82s, 40c<BR>net LOSS: 55s, 30c<BR>About 1-2 minutes left on timer when done without equipment on.</P> <P>I did not ding during the writs. I started out 10% into level 51 sage and after 5 writs I was 1-2% from level 52 (dinged one combine after finishing the last writ).</P> <P>The gold payout calculation seems to be messed up (as Dymus admitted). The faction seems low, the status high, but it sounds like that will be addressed too. The timer seems about right. It made me dig into my bag of tricks to maximize my power regen while crafting, which I haven't had to do since the tradeskilling revamp. From the chat on the test channel, there was enough failures to consider it challenging, but without so many failures that people were too frustrated. All in all, a pretty good implementation of writs for tradeskills IMO, based on limited testing.<BR></P>

[Obadiah]

<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kegerian wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ke'la wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kegerian wrote:<BR> <DIV>I can't believe anyone thinks this is a good idea.  Timed tradeskill writs?!?  It doesn't matter what you do, that fact alone makes it impossible to truly balance them against adventure writs.  I was so excited when I heard that tradeskill writs would involve selling your crafted items to a special vendor (like status loot).  It would have allowed me to actually get something useful out of the junk items that don't sell well.  I have to rush enough in real life, why should I have to in something that is supposed to be recreational.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2cp  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The addtion of the timer allows for the chance at failure wich alows them to give coin as well as Status and Faction. While the adventure writs only give status and faction, as such the chance of failure in TS writs is balance by the small profit you are suposed to be able to make from them. So taking that out of the equation as its been balanced out now its just a matter of Time invested for TS writs vers time invested for Adv writs.</P> <P>BTW Travel time should not matter as harvesters have to travel to those zones as well to get thier harvests, and as far as the yeah but you can harvest for more then one writ goes... well you can also go to those zones with more then 1 writ.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, I have read every post in this thread.  I've read the rationale for the timer and I still say that you can add whatever you want and it is still unbalanced.  There are alot of people like me that play casually and have constant interruptions while playing.  Anything timed is almost impossible for us to do.  What should happen is a system similar to the old one implemented along side the new one so people can do what works for them.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So. . . you have never finished Journey Is Half the Fun then I assume. :smileywink:</P> <P>I have constant interruptions too. But ... it's <STRONG>8 minutes</STRONG>. </P>

[rosela]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Obadiah wrote:<BR> <P>Course the old ones had the time restrictions. Once every what, half hour? Without those limits you can still do 3 or 4 of these tradeskill writs to every 1 adventuring one. So you're still gaining faction twice as fast while making comparable (it seems) coin and earning far more status points (if it's still 19.8K at the upper levels). The tradeskill faction titles will still be the easiest to gain.</P> <P>I did 6 adventuring writs the other night in Bonemire. Easiest writ in the world - 15 vornerous drones. Each one earned me from 1-6G total in drops. Some of the numbers posted earlier for adventuring writ earnings are a bit crazy.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, with the old system you could complete one every 15 minutes, or 4 an hour. I can complete 4 upper T7 writs in about 45 minutes (and some of the lower tiers I could do 4 in 30 minutes). It looks like a well stocked person could complete 6 writs an hour with the new system...assuming all of them succeeded...</P> <P>I guess my point is that there really is not a huge difference between adventure and crafting writs with the new system, and there was not much of a difference really with the old one (for most tiers). I still see both adventure and crafting writs at a rate of 4 an hour for the average player.</P> <P> </P> <P>EDIT: Ok, it has been a while and now I am questioning my memory. I think it was 4 an hour, but maybe it was 3 and hour. There was a 15 min timer and a 20 min timer. One was to get a new writ of you did not complete the old one and one was for getting a new writ if you did complete the last one.... Oh well, it doesn't change my argument much...I don't think...</P> <P> </P> <P>Also, I want to confirm a comment made earlier. The old writs DID give money, faction, and status.</P><p>Message Edited by roselark on <span class=date_text>08-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:50 PM</span>

[Sunrayn]

<DIV>'RNG' and 'Timed Event' are like 'Oil and Water', they dont mix.  You cannot beat the RNG.  Sure, sometimes you will get a streak of 'critical success and success ticks' but, due to the RNG, you can also get a streak of 'critical failures and failures'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of us know, when the RNG turns evil, it turns *evil*.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On my 42 woodworker yesterday, I was flying through the combines, the RNG was in my favor...up until the 3rd buckler.  Halfway through that combine, the EvilRNG kicked in.  One streak of 4 or 5 negative ticks and I am done, washed up, out on the street looking in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can I get pristine back once I lose it? Yep, you bet your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I can.  Can I get it back and still beat the timer? Thats where luck comes in.  There is a reason I dont play the lottery, I have no control over the 'random factor'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can link to as many threads as you want on the topic of getting pristine.  Guess what? Not the same ballgame.  It is one thing to counter the 'bad runs' when time is on your side, quite a different game when time is against you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Frens]

After today's brief update on Test, the advanced journeyman woodworker work order yields nothing. Completed on time, NPC thanked me, but nothing. No status, faction, or coin. Took it again and quest journal lists NO reward. I have yet to check this with other tiers... same with Apprentice Woodworker. Quests still aren't reliably deletable (did it once, but not again). Can we please have this fixed before the weekend?Thanks,Opharia20 Troubador/43 WoodworkerMagar Inc (A small division of Fhir Rhuen)Test Server

[Obadiah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> roselark wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Obadiah wrote:<BR> <P>Course the old ones had the time restrictions. Once every what, half hour? Without those limits you can still do 3 or 4 of these tradeskill writs to every 1 adventuring one. So you're still gaining faction twice as fast while making comparable (it seems) coin and earning far more status points (if it's still 19.8K at the upper levels). The tradeskill faction titles will still be the easiest to gain.</P> <P>I did 6 adventuring writs the other night in Bonemire. Easiest writ in the world - 15 vornerous drones. Each one earned me from 1-6G total in drops. Some of the numbers posted earlier for adventuring writ earnings are a bit crazy.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, with the old system you could complete one every 15 minutes, or 4 an hour. I can complete 4 upper T7 writs in about 45 minutes (and some of the lower tiers I could do 4 in 30 minutes). It looks like a well stocked person could complete 6 writs an hour with the new system...assuming all of them succeeded...</P> <P>I guess my point is that there really is not a huge difference between adventure and crafting writs with the new system, and there was not much of a difference really with the old one (for most tiers). I still see both adventure and crafting writs at a rate of 4 an hour for the average player.</P> <P> </P> <P>EDIT: Ok, it has been a while and now I am questioning my memory. I think it was 4 an hour, but maybe it was 3 and hour. There was a 15 min timer and a 20 min timer. One was to get a new writ of you did not complete the old one and one was for getting a new writ if you did complete the last one.... Oh well, it doesn't change my argument much...I don't think...</P> <P> </P> <P>Also, I want to confirm a comment made earlier. The old writs DID give money, faction, and status.</P> <P>Message Edited by roselark on <SPAN class=date_text>08-18-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:50 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hmm. I could swear there was a 30 minute wait before you could pick up another tradeskill writ before. Not the wait for switching to a different task, but for picking up a new writ. Oh well, I didn't do that much for the Ironforge.</P> <P>Even so, <STRONG>I must have your secrets.</STRONG> :smileyhappy:  4 writs for one faction in 45 minutes I find amazing. I can't seem to squeeze out more than 3 writs in an hour for one. I suppose it helps that you have evac, but still. That travel back to Qeynos takes me a while.</P> <P>Don't get me wrong, I think the status/faction amount of 100 sounds fine. And faction-wise I think you're right. It's not a *huge* difference from one to the other, especially if you can crank out 4 per hour - which I can see at some tiers. If it's 19.8K status though, then there's a huge gap there. I believe I was getting 7400 per writ on the upper t7 ones, so 6 x 19.8K would give the crafter roughly 4x the status you gained from the 4 adventure writs.</P>

[Wikfizb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calendri wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I'm actually 17 adv/34 tailor on test and I also had zero issue finishing in the time allotted and actually had quiet a bit of time to spare. Honestly, people should learn to use their buffs correctly (which can be completely different between people) while you are leveling up. That shouldn't even be factored into the equation where writs are concerned.</P> <P>A side note about the better buffs at higher tiers, that doesn't hold true for all classes. I know at least some have t6/t7 buffs that are actually inferior to lower level buffs.</P> <P>Dymus, I'm really happy to see some of the changes you are intending to work in. I think that might possibly make them quite enjoyable, at least for people like me. =)<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>In my experience, I find lvl 30 to the be turning point for MOST proffessions.  This is when most classes (probably all) have the  strongest durability buffs available.  Because pristine is what is essential for these writs, the ability to quickly boost durability if you get a crit failure is very important here, and the difference between lvl 20-29 and 30+ could be an extra round or two of needing to use dur buffs, and of course thats time that you are not using prog buffs.  The extra buffs you get at 40 and beyond may help a little, but are negligable compared to the benefits of the lvl 30 counters.</P> <P>FWIW, I tried a writ last night as a lvl 21 sage and failed by about 45 seconds.  I have little doubt that if I had the 30+ counters, I would have succeeded, and I have little confidence that anythgin short of a burst of good luck would enable me to complete an apprentice sage writ before lvl 30.</P> <P>Wikfizbik</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wikfizbik wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>In my experience, I find lvl 30 to the be turning point for MOST proffessions.  This is when most classes (probably all) have the  strongest durability buffs available.  Because pristine is what is essential for these writs, the ability to quickly boost durability if you get a crit failure is very important here, and the difference between lvl 20-29 and 30+ could be an extra round or two of needing to use dur buffs, and of course thats time that you are not using prog buffs.  The extra buffs you get at 40 and beyond may help a little, but are negligable compared to the benefits of the lvl 30 counters.</P> <P>FWIW, I tried a writ last night as a lvl 21 sage and failed by about 45 seconds.  I have little doubt that if I had the 30+ counters, I would have succeeded, and I have little confidence that anythgin short of a burst of good luck would enable me to complete an apprentice sage writ before lvl 30.</P> <P>Wikfizbik</P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree about the Level 30 buffs -- until you hit level 30 where you get the big dur. boosts, you make a lot of less than pristine and it takes forever.  I would have perfectly ghastly "critical failures" just when I should have gotten a pristine - but had not durability to counter it.  Tradeskilling is hard till you hit level 30.<BR>

[Rijacki]

<blockquote><hr>Frens wrote:After today's brief update on Test, the advanced journeyman woodworker work order yields nothing. Completed on time, NPC thanked me, but nothing. No status, faction, or coin. Took it again and quest journal lists NO reward. I have yet to check this with other tiers... same with Apprentice Woodworker. Quests still aren't reliably deletable (did it once, but not again). Can we please have this fixed before the weekend?Thanks,Opharia20 Troubador/43 WoodworkerMagar Inc (A small division of Fhir Rhuen)Test Server<hr></blockquote>ALL quests (except collection turn-ins) are yielding zero reward.  A reward isn't even offered at the time you take the quest.  I was playing a new illusionist and thought I remembered the island quests giving armor and a tidy bit of money (which I was intending to use for tradeskill leveling) but I wasn't really needing the armor, so I didn't really think about it until I read in the GU thread that quests are giving rewards.<div></div>

[selch]

While at it, can we increase number of raws in stacks such as 100 or 200 ?

[EtoilePirate]

<div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Wikfizbik wrote: <div></div>In my experience, I find lvl 30 to the be turning point for MOST proffessions.  This is when most classes (probably all) have the  strongest durability buffs available.  Because pristine is what is essential for these writs, the ability to quickly boost durability if you get a crit failure is very important here, and the difference between lvl 20-29 and 30+ could be an extra round or two of needing to use dur buffs, and of course thats time that you are not using prog buffs.  The extra buffs you get at 40 and beyond may help a little, but are negligable compared to the benefits of the lvl 30 counters. <p>FWIW, I tried a writ last night as a lvl 21 sage and failed by about 45 seconds.  I have little doubt that if I had the 30+ counters, I would have succeeded, and I have little confidence that anythgin short of a burst of good luck would enable me to complete an apprentice sage writ before lvl 30.</p> <p>Wikfizbik </p><hr> </blockquote>I agree about the Level 30 buffs -- until you hit level 30 where you get the big dur. boosts, you make a lot of less than pristine and it takes forever.  I would have perfectly ghastly "critical failures" just when I should have gotten a pristine - but had not durability to counter it.  Tradeskilling is hard till you hit level 30.<hr></blockquote>Yup.  I quit the tailoring biz right after I dinged 29 because those last-minute critical failures were so horrible.  I botched some guy's rare armour because it dropped from perfectly fine to Piece of Crap right before the final tick that would have made it complete, and that was the final straw for me.Little did I know that the entire thing turned into a total cakewalk at 30, with the new buffs.  I haven't had trouble with a pristine since 31.  (45 and counting...)</div>

[Ebjelen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <DIV>'RNG' and 'Timed Event' are like 'Oil and Water', they dont mix.  You cannot beat the RNG.  Sure, sometimes you will get a streak of 'critical success and success ticks' but, due to the RNG, you can also get a streak of 'critical failures and failures'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of us know, when the RNG turns evil, it turns *evil*.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's the biggest problem I've seen with the timers. There is no room for the Random Number Generator (RNG) to turn evil. Now admittedly there are a few people that have plenty of time. I see those people as the elite of the crafters, albeit - the minority by far, they know how to use the counters well enough to almost negate the RNG.</P> <P>But, for the rest of us spinning out just one third bar combine means we just lost the timer race. There is no room for sub-elite performance.</P> <P>Also, you need to remember that not all crafting stations a equal distances from the quest givers. Some of us lose 5 seconds getting to the table, some of us lose 30 seconds running all the way down to a forge in the FP instances. Again, less room to beat the RNG.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[AinaFV]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Dymus wrote:</P> <DIV>As a reminder:  Keep the feedback constructive.  I'll be more likely to make changes based on objective (and specific) feedback and commentary than long ranting posts.  The more specific the better.  Most people have been good about this and I'd like to keep the thread in that direction.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Here's a suggestion to finishing or failing a tradeskill order:</P> <P>Finishing on time....The Freeport armory has six new recruits to outfit and equip with weapons.  The Captain of the Guard is inspecting these new recruits in XXX time.  Finish the rush order by the inspection time and receive city status from the Captain, Coalition status from the Commissioner, and enough gold to make it worth your while.</P> <P>Failing the timer....If you run out of time, you receive just enough coinage to cover fuels, nothing for raws and, of course, no status since you didn't impress either the Captain or the Commissioner.</P> <P>This suggestion addresses the concerns of losing your entire fuel investment over a bit of bad luck.</P><p>Message Edited by AinaFV on <span class=date_text>08-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:01 PM</span>

[Deson]

<div></div>I think Dymus said last post that fuel costs would be covered for every part of the writ completed with thye big reward coming at the end. I just want to warn againt being too generous with the reward when harvest time is accoutned for. Granted many people do currently harvest for themselves but, if you are part of a guild you can have a virtual harvest army out there grabbing you raws.If it's too generous, the problem of assembly line writting that showed when they first were introduced would most likely reappear causing more need for heavy nerfs. I'd rather the reward start off too low and be adjusted up than be too high and need to be constantly nerfed. Anyone can harvest for you, no one can kill for you. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Deson on <span class=date_text>08-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:40 AM</span>

[Ri]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ebjelen wrote:<div></div>Also, you need to remember that not all crafting stations a equal distances from the quest givers. Some of us lose 5 seconds getting to the table, some of us lose 30 seconds running all the way down to a forge in the FP instances. Again, less room to beat the RNG. <hr></blockquote>You should consider jumping down to the bottom instead of just running.</div>

[Piltow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deson wrote:<BR> I think Dymus said last post that fuel costs would be covered for every part of the writ completed with thye big reward coming at the end. I just want to warn againt being too generous with the reward when harvest time is accoutned for. Granted many people do currently harvest for themselves but, if you are part of a guild you can have a virtual harvest army out there grabbing you raws.If it's too generous, the problem of assembly line writting that showed when they first were introduced would most likely reappear causing more need for heavy nerfs. I'd rather the reward start off too low and be adjusted up than be too high and need to be constantly nerfed. Anyone can harvest for you, <FONT color=#ff33cc>no one can kill for you. <BR></FONT> <P>Message Edited by Deson on <SPAN class=date_text>08-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:40 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is not true. You can group with someone 6 levels higher than you. Both turn off adv exp. Turn out adventure writs fast and you never have to kill anything, just stand back and watch.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Deson]

Bad example, you still have to be there for the kill and you're only slowing yourself down if you arent helping. Nothing adventure side compares to crafting.<div></div>

[Oakum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deson wrote:<BR> I think Dymus said last post that fuel costs would be covered for every part of the writ completed with thye big reward coming at the end. I just want to warn againt being too generous with the reward when harvest time is accoutned for. Granted many people do currently harvest for themselves but, if you are part of a guild you can have a virtual harvest army out there grabbing you raws.If it's too generous, the problem of assembly line writting that showed when they first were introduced would most likely reappear causing more need for heavy nerfs. I'd rather the reward start off too low and be adjusted up than be too high and need to be constantly nerfed. Anyone can harvest for you, no one can kill for you. <BR> <P>Message Edited by Deson on <SPAN class=date_text>08-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:40 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>T5 and below possibly, T6 possible to some extent, T7 with nodes being area specific, NOT LIKELY.  At least not with enough quantity to make a dent in what would be needed. Only the "professional" harvesters or tradeskillers that do thier own harvesting will be able to produce the amount of raws needed for a specific class to do writs. Especially roots, the common denominator for raws needed. Guildies just dont give them away when they need them for themselves.

[Knesh]

I think if you are going to keep them timed make the Recipe book easier to read. Add better search functions and sort ability. Because right now it sucks....

[Calthine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Knesh wrote:<BR> I think if you are going to keep them timed make the Recipe book easier to read. Add better search functions and sort ability. Because right now it sucks....<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I was just doing writs and thinking that.

[Code2501]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deson wrote:<BR>Bad example, you still have to be there for the kill and you're only slowing yourself down if you arent helping. Nothing adventure side compares to crafting.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Whilst you may need to be physically present, you can sit 5 lvl 60-64 toons in a group with a higher lvl AE specialist (say a warlock) and the warlock can literay obliterate the writs in minutes. The Q writs which require you kill the same mob for 4 writs can be compleated, from a collection run throught Q to the time you gate back into Q (use call of Q or Ro alternately every 30 min) in 35 minutes easily. One AE dps needs no help from the other 5 in the group, they just need to auto follow, zone a few times every half hour and click through some quest dialoge. Often you will be left standing there waiting for another call to come up because level 57v droags can be wiped by a 65+ AE specialist 8 at a time in seconds. The other characters dont even have time to do any damage.</P> <P>My 64 Monk was clearing 8 adventurer writs per hour solo untill i dinged him 65. Now it takes 45-50 minutes to compleate 4 writs from Q dock to Q dock round trip.</P> <P> </P> <P>On the issue at hand, I think its fine to leave at least the hardest writs with a potential to loose you investment (fuel cost) but as has been stated the rewards need to match that risk... ie 100-200% profit from a compleated writ. (fuel cost = X,compleated writ reward = 2xX + status/faction) If this was the case then you should come out in front over the period of several writs even if you failed some. I agree with this aproach because tradeskills is more like running a business than anything and business risks are nearly always monetary in nature. </P><p>Message Edited by Code2501 on <span class=date_text>08-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:40 PM</span>

[Deson]

The 64 writs are an aberration. The rest of your post I agree with and also proves my point. If usuing my average crankout rate I can churn out writs at near twice the rate of adventurers, that's unbalanced and will certainly be taken advantage of by many. If they allow this, there has to be a greater risk of loss as stated. You want the biggest gain you should be prepared to lose money, there is no other way to truly hurt a crafter in this game.<div></div>

[Wikfizb]

<DIV>Got my prov on test leveld up to 20 this weekend and tried a few writs as him.  Did 4 writs, all succeeded easily.  The 4 I did were all to make 12 of the same item ( pristine as a prov yields 2 finished goods).  Not having to filter search between combines helps some, but I aslo had a racial trait for +5 artisan skill and got a provisioners insight early in the crafting too.  If a prov gets a string of crit failures, they can settle for a yield of 1 rather than all or nothing which also helps, but 2 of the 4 writs I did, were all pristine with time to spare, on the other 2 I had several strings of 3 or more crit failures in a row, so I opted to play it safe on those.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The first writ awarded me 1000 status, the following 3 writs awarded me 100 status.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wikfizbik</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ZeyGnome]

<P>As of Saturday's patch to fix the questing issues, there is absolutely no way to delete a tradeskill writ, regardless if you fail or not.  Before the patch (and before the broken quest bug) you could leave the tradeskill instance and delete the writ, usually if it failed first, though it seemed to work differently for different players.</P> <P>A lot of people are stuck on bugged writs right now (myself included on 2 chars) so we can't test them further. :smileysad:</P> <P>Hopefully, though, the fix for the deletion and the bad writ rewards will go in today and it will be a moot point.</P> <P> </P>

[Atrix Wolfe]

<DIV>Give us the option to do non timed writs.  The (rush order) writ system takes everything I enjoyed about the old tradeskill writs away.  I want  to be able to do tradeskill writs at my leisure.  I don't want to time attack sessions constantly.  </DIV>

[hoppopo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>As a reminder:  Keep the feedback constructive.  I'll be more likely to make changes based on objective (and specific) feedback and commentary than long ranting posts.  The more specific the better.  Most people have been good about this and I'd like to keep the thread in that direction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To answer some of the questions that have come up in the thread:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why is the City Record Keeper there, why does the timer not start when I get the work order?</STRONG> - The work order needs an initial step to fall back on if the timer is failed.  The record keeper is the first step and gives that initial stage fallback.  There needs to be a single step before the timer starts in order for the work orders to function properly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why do the NPC's not exist in the Coalition or Ironforge crafting zones?</STRONG> - I negleged to remember to put them there.  Thanks for the reminder, they'll be added soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why is the timer so aggressive?</STRONG> - The baseline difficulty needs to be determined before the other options appear for the rush work orders.  The ones on test right now should be the most difficult ones.  After all the functionality and rewards are tuned for these then the others with longer timers and lesser rewards will be added.  The number of variables needs to be limited at first before the rest of the options can be built.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why are these work orders not able to be deleted?</STRONG> - An oversight, they share the same quest category as the old City Tradeskill Tasks.  That will change and they will be able to be deleted soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why does the status value for the work orders change?</STRONG> - They should be based on your crafter level in relation to the level of the work order.  Similar to how adventure writs work in their status reward calculations.  There is a base value for the work order and as you level beyond it the status will diminish.  At the moment they are using adventure level for the work orders, that will be fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why do I lose money on some writs instead of turn a profit?</STRONG> - The Calculations are off for some of them and need tuning.  However, if you burn more fuel than average you will stand a chance of cutting into your profit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0033><FONT size=5><STRONG>Why are the faction and status rewards lower than adventure writs?</STRONG> - These are able to be completed in less than 10 minutes each.  The adventure writs are typically assumed to take about 30 - 60 minutes depending on level and difficulty.  The faction reward does increase with the level of the work order, level 69 work orders award 80 faction</FONT>.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Specific Bugs Noted which should be fixed soon:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Divine Judgement should now correctly update the Talented Alchemist Work Order.</DIV> <DIV>- Raging Blows was changed to Raging Press in the Talented Alchemist Work Order.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Referring to the post above. Not the case. I am sure people are faster then this but we were able between levels 60 and 64 to compelte 12 writs an hour doing TT sentries. I am sure some are faster. Here it is 7 an hour. Also coin reward for doing adventure writs is higher.   Please rethink status rewarded as I am sure there are people able to turn the sentries faster then we could.<BR>

[Looker1010]

<P>I've been reading this thread since it was started. Many comments, more negative than positive.</P> <P>The premis here is for new and "improved" crafting writs. What is actually being offered is less faction, less status and less coin than the old writs. Add to that the timer which makes me feel like a lab rat in a maze and the fact that adventurer writs start at level 10 but crafters must wait until level 20. Also, from level 10 adventurers get 150 faction per writ and we started with 10 faction at low end and 80 faction for level 69 crafting writs. Upping all to 100 is still only 2/3 of what any and all adventurers get.</P> <P>Just how are these new writs better than the old ones? Am I missing the point somewhere?</P>

[Dajuuk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeBazNitch wrote:<BR> <BR>I doubt botters even figured into this equation.  I have yet to see or even hear about any botters being banned, punished, talked to or anything.  Same with plat farmers/sellers and botters on the adventure side.  SOE doesn't have the resources to protect our gaming experience from these people.  If they really wanted to cut their income flow from these folks that violate the EULA all they would have to do is hire me or someone like me (average intelligence or better) and that person could identify and remove these people from all servers in like a month.  Nearly every level 70 on any server knows who these people are on their servers.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are incorrect.  SOE Bans Botters and plat farmers/sellers and others frequently.   The reason you don't hear about it is because its SOE policy to not discuss any bans, suspencions or other penalties with anybody except the effected party.  Just because they don't advertise the results, does not mean they don't take action.  I think that your overly simplifying the difficulty of determining whether somebody is a bot, or breaking the EULA.  </P> <P> </P>

[Calthine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ebjelen wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <DIV>'RNG' and 'Timed Event' are like 'Oil and Water', they dont mix.  You cannot beat the RNG.  Sure, sometimes you will get a streak of 'critical success and success ticks' but, due to the RNG, you can also get a streak of 'critical failures and failures'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of us know, when the RNG turns evil, it turns *evil*.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's the biggest problem I've seen with the timers. There is no room for the Random Number Generator (RNG) to turn evil. Now admittedly there are a few people that have plenty of time. I see those people as the elite of the crafters, albeit - the minority by far, they know how to use the counters well enough to almost negate the RNG.</P> <P>But, for the rest of us spinning out just one third bar combine means we just lost the timer race. There is no room for sub-elite performance.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I was worried about this myself - I failed my first writ.  But yesterday my lvl 21 Tailor was beat half to death by the RNG on the first item of a writ and I almost stopped there (to save fuel); she doesn't have the full compliment of Arts and the flexibility that might allow my 70 WW to surpass that setback.  I decided to bull it through - and completed the writ with about 30 seconds left.  Perhaps the RNG was nice to me a few times to make up for it, I dunno.  But it *is* possible to recover from RNG brutality and complete a writ.<BR>

[ZeyGnome]

<DIV>A Dev stated that the Writs on Test right now are the hardest of the lot in order to set a baseline.  Even with that, I have not had any problems completing a writ (the non-bugged ones) in the time allowed on any of the 4 craft chars I have. (Alchemist, Carpenter, Tailor, & Jeweler).  If these are the hardest, then one can assume that there will be writs with longer timers when the system is finished.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My only concern about the timers is for the Liver server folk who have to put up with lag and crowded instances.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The timers are a great feature, they make it a whole lot more dynamic.  You have to think and prepare before you go do the writs, and there is nothing wrong with that.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once we see what the new rewards will be, then we will see if the ROI is worth it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The majority of the people complaining about the timer haven't tried them on Test.  It's fun and challenging, which makes it involving, not a bad thing imho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Saroc_Luclin]

Sounds like a fun system. Wish I had time to test it. :< /auc WTB More hours in the day.Just keep in mind that the rewards are still up in the air (especially the status rewards which are an acknowledged bug).Also STOP COMPARING THEM TO THOSE 64-RANGE ADVENTURE WRITS. If you are going to give writs per hour comparisons, then use the other level ranges where the writs per hour rates are more realistic. SOE is not going to redesign the rewards around the outlier data point; they are going to balance it around the range (time and rewards) that most writs fall into. If you are giving suggestions for expected rewards, then base the suggestions off that, not the writ set people keep giving as an example.<div></div>

[Obadiah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saroc_Luclin wrote:<BR>Sounds like a fun system. Wish I had time to test it. :< /auc WTB More hours in the day.<BR><BR>Just keep in mind that the rewards are still up in the air (especially the status rewards which are an acknowledged bug).<BR><BR>Also STOP COMPARING THEM TO THOSE 64-RANGE ADVENTURE WRITS. If you are going to give writs per hour comparisons, then use the other level ranges where the writs per hour rates are more realistic. SOE is not going to redesign the rewards around the outlier data point; they are going to balance it around the range (time and rewards) that most writs fall into. If you are giving suggestions for expected rewards, then base the suggestions off that, not the writ set people keep giving as an example.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah, those Sentries are the absolute extreme in ease of mass-writ completion. I would go one step farther and say if you're going to compare them to adventuring writs you should compare them to doing writs for a single faction. Ironforge is one faction, not four. And only compare them to solo writs, not heroics.</P> <P>OK, that's two steps. Sue me.</P> <P>I'm at 37K faction or so with the Qeynos Guards and I've yet to see these "<STRONG>coin rewards</STRONG>" that people keep alluding to for adventuring writs. I'm sure people are talking about drops from the mobs, and not thinking that there is actually a reward at turn in. Nonetheless, I've done ~50 level 70 guard writs and the most coin I've made off a trip is 17G. That was an extreme as there was one piece of looted arcana or what not that was ~16G. Barring that the max off of one single trip was 8G. Most seem to be around 1.5-2G, spiking to 6ish if there's a crap chest. I've made as little as zero as well . . . a few trips yielded no drops whatsoever.</P> <P>Now that I think of it perhaps the coin rewards should be reduced to be more in line with adventuring writs. How about some more RNG determining the amount of profit you receive from 0 to 17G, leaning heavily on the low side and giving the max 17G about 1% of the time. ....... Yeah, I didn't think so. :smileywink:</P>

[Magic]

<P>I have an idea that would make these rush orders more enjoyable for me.</P> <P>1.  I would pay a fee to get the rush order.</P> <P>2.  The NPC gives me all of the needed items, including fuel.  These items are flagged as no-trade, no-value, and cannot be used in any other recipes.  I would be allowed to return for resupply if I run out of materials before the timer runs out.  All materials would disappear after the timer runs out.</P> <P>3.  The resulting crafted items would disappear rather than be put into inventory.  It would say "Quest Item Found" when I made a pristine or say "You Did Not Find Any Quest Items" if I fail.  If it does this already, then disregard this statement.</P> <P>This way I'm not wasting time harversting or risking my life in the higher zones while I'm less than level 10 in combat level to do these orders.  However, if I want to craft anything to sell or use, I would need to harvest or buy as usual.</P> <P>How does everyone feel about this idea?</P>

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aljola wrote:<BR> <P>I have an idea that would make these rush orders more enjoyable for me.</P> <P>1.  I would pay a fee to get the rush order.</P> <P>2.  The NPC gives me all of the needed items, including fuel.  These items are flagged as no-trade, no-value, and cannot be used in any other recipes.  I would be allowed to return for resupply if I run out of materials before the timer runs out.  All materials would disappear after the timer runs out.</P> <P>3.  The resulting crafted items would disappear rather than be put into inventory.  It would say "Quest Item Found" when I made a pristine or say "You Did Not Find Any Quest Items" if I fail.  If it does this already, then disregard this statement.</P> <P>This way I'm not wasting time harversting or risking my life in the higher zones while I'm less than level 10 in combat level to do these orders.  However, if I want to craft anything to sell or use, I would need to harvest or buy as usual.</P> <P>How does everyone feel about this idea?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>1) uh how about no. The whole point of writs is to MAKE money. Why would I pay them a fee AND do the work. Makes no sense.</P> <P>2) Uh how about no again, its all about economics the game allows you to harvest material to tradeskill. What good is it if its not gonna be needed to do writs...</P> <P>3) Thats how the system already is! Although you must make pristines. I really dont need a message saying I didn't get pristine im pretty sure I was aware of it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Good try but no...</P>

[Rijacki]

<div><blockquote><hr>Aljola wrote:<div></div> <p>I have an idea that would make these rush orders more enjoyable for me.</p> <p>1.  I would pay a fee to get the rush order.</p> <p>2.  The NPC gives me all of the needed items, including fuel.  These items are flagged as no-trade, no-value, and cannot be used in any other recipes.  I would be allowed to return for resupply if I run out of materials before the timer runs out.  All materials would disappear after the timer runs out.</p> <p>3.  The resulting crafted items would disappear rather than be put into inventory.  It would say "Quest Item Found" when I made a pristine or say "You Did Not Find Any Quest Items" if I fail.  If it does this already, then disregard this statement.</p> <p>This way I'm not wasting time harversting or risking my life in the higher zones while I'm less than level 10 in combat level to do these orders.  However, if I want to craft anything to sell or use, I would need to harvest or buy as usual.</p> <p>How does everyone feel about this idea?</p><hr></blockquote>Personally, I think that would be a great idea.  Perhaps even with special recipes (like the Live events of the griffon towers and spires) so there would be no need to have the writs match up to the current recipes many of which currently can have one name for the recipe and another for the finished product 'causing time wasting confusion.  I agree, too, it would be a great way to support the pure crafters and not have them reliant on a high level adventurer in order to obtain supplies.Currently, my highest Test character is a level 17 assassin, level 20 alchemist.  I have had to take a couple additional days to level in adventuring in order to make Nek Forest harvesting less risky (yes, I could go to the Steppes and compete with other harvesters as well as angry critters, but I do know a lot about harvest areas in Nek).  If the writs supplied materials, I would have been able to do them from the point they were patched in.  I finally have enough supplies I might be able to do one or two now.. before going back out to harvest.Nuit is my Teir'dal assassin/alchemist on Test.  Soir is my wood elf coercer/provisioner to be, but probably not to a point she can help this week since she's barely left the island and is still an illusionist who hasn't yet touched a crafting station *laugh*.</div>

[Obadiah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aljola wrote:<BR> <P>I have an idea that would make these rush orders more enjoyable for me.</P> <P>1.  I would pay a fee to get the rush order.</P> <P>2.  The NPC gives me all of the needed items, including fuel.  These items are flagged as no-trade, no-value, and cannot be used in any other recipes.  I would be allowed to return for resupply if I run out of materials before the timer runs out.  All materials would disappear after the timer runs out.</P> <P>3.  The resulting crafted items would disappear rather than be put into inventory.  It would say "Quest Item Found" when I made a pristine or say "You Did Not Find Any Quest Items" if I fail.  If it does this already, then disregard this statement.</P> <P>This way I'm not wasting time harversting or risking my life in the higher zones while I'm less than level 10 in combat level to do these orders.  However, if I want to craft anything to sell or use, I would need to harvest or buy as usual.</P> <P>How does everyone feel about this idea?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think it's safe to say my opinion is moot because it's not going to happen. They aren't going to make new versions of every raw and fuel used in every recipe to only function for these writs.</P> <P>Regardless, it sounds to me like a great way to level up a crafter from 20 to 70 without <STRONG>ever</STRONG> <STRONG>harvesting or buying anything.</STRONG> As if it's not easy enough! Yay for bots! I pick up a writ, I fail over and over and over and over and over again. Repeat every few levels to get higher level items.</P>

[Heattanu]

<P>I have 4 tradeskilling characters (provisioner,  weaponsmith, tailor, sage) levels 44-52 on Test that did about 30 of the new writs this weekend. After trying a couple different difficulties on my sage, I found that it was not that difficult to complete the highest difficulty level available for all 4 classes.  The only time I failed was when I was missing a couple recipe books and had to zone out twice to get the right recipes. I even managed to complete some buggy tailor writs (strengthened sack and backpack) that kicked me out to character select (but gave me credit for the combine).</P> <P>I still have complaints about how the rewards are calculated. The gold rewards are frequently not enough to cover fuel costs. The status awards are still tied to the adventure level (also the listed level of the quest) instead of the tradeskill level (as indicated in patch notes), although the recipes I was given were the appropriate tradeskill level. Some people, however, reported that were given the wrong level recipe for their tradeskill level.</P> <P>Sage level 52, fury level 50 - 8000 status reward</P> <P>Tailor level 50, swashbuckler level 32 - 3500 status reward</P> <P>Weaponsmith level 49, troubadour level 15 - 1800 status reward</P> <P>Provisioner level 44, mystic level 12 - 1800 status reward</P> <P>I am not all that skilled. I get some, but definitely not all reactions. I tend to spam all three top level progress buffs until the durability bar falls to half of pristine, then I spam the top durability buffs till it is past half pristine, then back to spamming progress. Hardly a complex strategy, but it works most of the time. I think I failed pristine twice in the 30 writs, but had enough time to make a replacement pristine item to make up for the failure.</P> <P>If the difficulty or playstyle of these writs does not suit you, keep in mind that you can simply grind up the levels without the writs and still recover your fuel costs. Although I like this new addition to the game, I do hope that the devs continue to develop new types of gameplay associated with tradeskills. More simple (or complex) tradeskill quests such as the one in Fallen Dynasty would be much appreciated. Alternate writ types not based on timers would also encourage growth of the tradeskilling community.</P><p>Message Edited by Heattanu on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:02 PM</span>

[Calthine]

Dymus said in his post that they were reading of Adv level, not TS level currently, and it was getting fixed.

[Heattanu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calthine wrote:<BR> Dymus said in his post that they were reading of Adv level, not TS level currently, and it was getting fixed.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The Test patch notes on Saturday seemed to indicate that it was fixed, but it wasn't. I just didn't want devs to be under the misimpression that that problem was solved.

[ZeyGnome]

<P>From what I understand, the adv/TS level thing has been fixed.</P> <P>But the reward thing has not been fixed.  Dymus specifically said he was going to look over the equations over the weekend and that the next big patch to Test would have new amounts.  That hasn't happened yet.</P> <P>The rewards are broken/miscalculating.  I just wish they'd put that in the MOTD on Test so people would stop arguing about the rewards when the subject comes up on the test channel (and also to stop people from wasting all their coin on successful writs)</P> <P> </P>

[HazlenutElf]

<DIV>The first time I logged into test server to try the new writs I was in NQ, so I went to the Ironforge Exchange and was told there were no work orders at this time. So if it hasnt already been fixed, add the forman and record keeper to the Ironforge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've tried one 'rush order so far with my jewler. I had aproximatly 8 minutes to make 2 different runes, 3 of each for a total of 6 runes. I dashed downstairs, bought some fuel and started up. After finishing 4 of the 6 runes my timer was at 20 seconds. This was the apprentice version.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Concerns:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1<STRIKE>) The 3 makeshift arrows runes I made were 'consumed' by the quest and since I failed the timer I lost my materials and my fuel. Unless the reward for success is really really good, this current set-up makes the new writs a losing proposition.</STRIKE></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) The timers are too short since pristine is required to update the task. I consider myself a seasoned crafter , I have two level 70 crafters and two 50+ crafters, and dont have a problem getting pristine unless I CTD or get too busy typing and laughing and 8 minutes wasnt enough time to complete. I newer crafter who is still learning the crafting system is really gonna have a hard time finishing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) <STRIKE>This is a bad combination IMO, the timer and the items being consumed by the task. If you fail you should at least have something to sell back for the fuel costs. Let the itmes stay in the inventory and and be 'handed in' with the completion of the quest</STRIKE>. What if the phone rings, the door bell goes off, the baby wakes up, kid spills juice and you have to clean it up so it doesn't stain, ect, ect, ect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRIKE>As it is now I don't see it being receive well, either remove the timers or leave the items in  your inventory to be sold for fuel costs if you fail the timer.</STRIKE> And if the timers do stay, make them longer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit: read dev comments about small coin payout after each completed item, but I still think the time aloted is too short</DIV><p>Message Edited by HazlenutElf on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:52 AM</span>

[Ebjelen]

<div></div><div></div><div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Knesh wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Aljola wrote: <div></div> <p>I have an idea that would make these rush orders more enjoyable for me.</p> <p>1.  I would pay a fee to get the rush order.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>1) uh how about no. The whole point of writs is to MAKE money. Why would I pay them a fee AND do the work. Makes no sense.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Maybe to you. To me the purpose of these new writs is status. Crafters have been making money by selling their wares since release. We still have plenty of power to make money, maybe not as much power as we'd like, but we still make money.</div> <div> </div> <div>With LU 24 we lost the ability to gain status through crafting. A lot of crafters used status to purchase and maintain housing so that they could have lots of vendor slots. That's why these new writs are so important. Worse, a lot of the hardcore crafters really sucked at adventure skills and so were unable to simply move on to adventure writs. And lets face it, the lower level adventure writs are not so solo-do-able as are tradeskill writs.</div> <div> </div> <div>Breaking even on fuel is ok for me. Status gain is far more important IMHO. I think what Aljolah forgot in his post was the reward part.</div><p>Message Edited by Ebjelen on <span class="date_text">08-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:11 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Ebjelen on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 PM</span>

[leiela]

<P>I thought the point was the writs where going to be a way of earning a small amount of coin as well as status? </P> <P> i never thought we where gonna get rich off them but i was hoping for it t b a way to level a crafter without taking a huge finacial loss.  I really hope they up the reward from covering just fuel .. not much more after all i don't want botts and the like abusing the system wracking up so we have even more annoying people asking us to buy plat. </P> <P>The origional plan was to have crafter items like handin's where you could choose status OR money .. so i really would like to see it bieng profitable.. if you dont want us getting both perhaps let us choose money or status when we collect our reward... </P>

[ZeyGnome]

<DIV>Is there any word when an update will go to Test to correct the broken tradeskill writ rewards?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it is right now, you cannot delete a writ (a bugged writ or not), you lose all your coin on a failure, and you lose money on just about every successful writ even if you get a pristine first time on all the writ requirements (my 46 alchy loses 2g on each successful writ).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not a whole lot of testing going on because of this.  I thought it was going to be updated Monday per some comments in this thread, but its Tuesday now, and nothing is getting tested.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dymus]

<div></div><div></div> <div>When test is updated there are a slew of bugs that get fixed (and other things).1.  I replaced the City Record Keeper with a person who gives out untimed work orders.  They are lower reward than the timed ones in all aspects but there's no pressure under a timer on them.</div> <div>2.  Instead of talking to a City Record Keeper when you get the work order you now go to one of the work order desks to pick up your 'invoice' which tells you what you need to make.  There are a pair of desks in each tradeskill instance, one is at the bottom and top giving you a choice on which you want to use (and which one might be closer to where you need to go).3.  The timed work orders give out 150 faction, the untimed ones give out 100.4.  The timed work orders give out a moderate amount of coin for completion, the untimed give out half the amount of their timed equivalent.5.  Each step in a work order now should re-imburse you the correct amount of coin for what your fuel costs were.        - The exception is provisioners, they vary their fuel on a per item basis, their fuel is cheaper so they have an average flat rate of return.        - Ammo, totems, potions, poisons, and some other items used less fuel than their normal counterparts.  They should pay back at the rate they cost for their steps.  This also means that steps which require you to make them should always be consistent.</div> <div>6.  Tailor recipes should update correctly and I removed all the miscellaneous extra 'tailored' that kept showing up in some of the work order checklists.7.  Containers should no longer crash you when you update a work order by making one.8.  The Ironforge and Coalition instances should have both work order NPC's and their desks.9.  Many (but not quite all) work orders now have the proper icons and a proper name.  Work orders above level 34 for Tailors, Weaponsmiths, Woodworkers, and Jewelers still need to have them added.10.  The work orders should all be deleteable and give a confirmation when you ask the foreman for one.11.  Rush orders have a (Rush Order) designation in their title.  The non timed ones do not.</div> <div>12.  The dialogue option after hailing one of the work order NPC's now gives a bit more of an indication as to the tier and level of the work order you are taking.  Highest level is always at the top now.13.  And lots of the work orders which were not updating or asking you to create spells or items which no longer exist should be fixed.</div> <div><strong>Known Issues</strong></div> <div>1.  The status given out for the work orders (both timed and untimed) is incorrect in some cases.  This should be fixed soon.</div> <div>2.  The non-timed level 29, 39, 49, and 59 work orders will be giving more coin than they should.3.  Sages:  The work order foreman will only give you timed work orders, that's unintended and will be fixed soon.4.  Provisioners:  The Quest helper will direct you to speak with a city record keeper after getting a work order.  It's lying to you, the work order desk will have the invoice you need.</div> <div> </div><p>Message Edited by Dymus on <span class="date_text">08-22-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:45 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Dymus on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:26 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

Thanks for listening to the feedback, Dymus. We'll get another round of testing in.

[Looker1010]

<DIV>This is a huge improvement Dymus. It's great to see that the people who design the game are really listening to those who play it. Thank you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Writs still need work but we're a lot closer to something players will use than we were with the first attempts - but then you know now how bad they were.</DIV>

[Snarks]

great work<div></div>

[selch]

Two thumbs up! These changes are wonderful <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[KerowynnKaotic]

<P><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Dymus</STRONG></FONT>:</P> <P>5.  Each step in a work order now should re-imburse you the correct amount of coin for what your fuel costs were. <BR>     - The exception is provisioners, they vary their fuel on a per item basis, their fuel is cheaper so they have an average flat rate of return.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Flat rate of return?  Does this take into account the extra items that require Provisioners to purchase but that aren't considered fuel?</P> <P>Such as Dough?  I think Dough is the only item Provo's have left that can't be made / can't be harvested but must be bought for some of their recipes. </P> <P>Though, the cost of dough can be worked around if you chose recipes that don't require anything other than Fuel & Harvestables.  </P> <P>Edit Add: <STRONG>Dough, Milk & Water.</STRONG>  Must be bought and aren't considered "fuel".</P> <P>(<EM>the recipes use dough instead of bread now, Maroger</EM>)</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by KerowynnKaotic on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:07 PM</span>

[Maroger]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KerowynnKaotic wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Dymus</STRONG></FONT>:</P> <P>5.  Each step in a work order now should re-imburse you the correct amount of coin for what your fuel costs were. <BR>     - The exception is provisioners, they vary their fuel on a per item basis, their fuel is cheaper so they have an average flat rate of return.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Flat rate of return?  Does this take into account the extra items that require Provisioners to purchase but that aren't considered fuel?</P> <P>Such as Dough?  I think Dough is the only item Provo's have left that can't be made / can't be harvested but must be bought for some of their recipes. </P> <P>Though, the cost of dough can be worked around if you chose recipes that don't require anything other than Fuel & Harvestables.  </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you make sandwiches you have to buy bread.<BR></DIV>

[Bratface]

<div><blockquote><hr>KerowynnKaotic wrote:<div></div> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>Dymus</strong></font>:</p> <p>5.  Each step in a work order now should re-imburse you the correct amount of coin for what your fuel costs were.      - The exception is provisioners, they vary their fuel on a per item basis, their fuel is cheaper so they have an average flat rate of return.</p> <p></p> <hr> <p>Flat rate of return?  Does this take into account the extra items that require Provisioners to purchase but that aren't considered fuel?</p> <p>Such as Dough?  I think Dough is the only item Provo's have left that can't be made / can't be harvested but must be bought for some of their recipes. </p> <p>Though, the cost of dough can be worked around if you chose recipes that don't require anything other than Fuel & Harvestables.  </p> <hr></blockquote>You have to buy milk also, since the change I haven't neded any sugar or chocolate or bread, only milk and dough, and they do cost money /nod</div>

[Piltow]

<P>Before I bash my first WORK ORDER, let me congratulate you on the massive change in a short time responding to the community.</P> <P>I tried my first NOT timed Work Order tonight as a level 21 Provisioner in Queynos. The order was for 6 Steppes mountain Coffee and 6 Lion Steaks. No time limit.</P> <P>1 - The position of the upstairs desk is not obvious. Maybe move it or the foreman to the right or left to make it stand out.</P> <P>2 - The position of the downstairs desk is way out there. It needs to be at the bottom of the stairs not stuck in the corner past the looms.</P> <P>3 - I first did the Coffee. I failed once to make pristine so when I finished my 4th combine I had made 7 items. It ATE my 7th item with no pay.</P> <P>4 - When I finished the coffee (First Step), I got a message that I finished My work order for the afternoon snack and it paid me 1s 40c (the exact amount for the kindling fuel). It did not pay me for or replace the 7th item created.</P> <P>5 - Also when I finished the first step it reminded me to complete the work order on time. Very confusing since there is no time limit.</P> <P>6 - When I completed the 2nd step (6 Lion Steaks), it paid me 1s 40c for my costs (neglecting the 42c paid for the dough). It then tells me to go to the work order foreman to turn in the completed work order.</P> <P>7 - TEST BREAKER. When I get to the proper foreman and hail him, he tells me good job and here is my reward. I GOT NOTHING, just like the other night when all the quests were broken.</P> <P>When the turn in is fixed I will test more.</P> <P> </P>

[ZeyGnome]

<DIV>Okay, looking good.  The system is really shaping up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here are the results from a quick run through:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 46 (dinged 47 during) Alchemist</DIV> <DIV>Level 49 Monk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Timered Trade Writs</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Hardest  </STRONG>(T5 Difficult)</DIV> <DIV>4286 Status</DIV> <DIV>150 Faction</DIV> <DIV>1g 8s reward (on top of fuel)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Middle </STRONG>(T5)</DIV> <DIV>3085 Status</DIV> <DIV>150 Faction</DIV> <DIV>48s reward (on top of fuel)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Bottom</STRONG> (T4 Difficult)</DIV> <DIV>4129 Status</DIV> <DIV>150 Faction</DIV> <DIV>36s reward (on top of fuel)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U><STRONG>Non-Timered Writs</STRONG> </U>(<EM>From journal reward listing, cannot turn in</EM>)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Hardest</STRONG> (T5 Difficult)</DIV> <DIV>6541 Status</DIV> <DIV>100 Faction</DIV> <DIV>54s reward (on top of fuel)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Middle</STRONG> (T5)</DIV> <DIV>4848 Status</DIV> <DIV>100 Faction</DIV> <DIV>36s reward (on top of fuel)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Bottom </STRONG>(T4 Difficult)</DIV> <DIV>4129 Status</DIV> <DIV>100 Faction</DIV> <DIV>36s reward reward (on top of fuel)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U><STRONG>Faction:</STRONG> </U></DIV> <DIV>Looks good across the board, though Non-Timered should be at most half of the Timered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U><STRONG>Status:</STRONG> </U></DIV> <DIV>Timered T5 Difficult and Non-Timered T5 Difficult look swapped to me.  Acctually, the Timered T5 Difficult reward looks right, it matches the Adventure writs closely.  The Non-Timered one is a bit up there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>T5 Timered middle is lower than the easiest Timered one.  That doesn't make sense to me, except that the Lowest was T4 around level 38 while the T5 was around level 40.  Somehow it looks like that might be affecting it. Or the T5 Timered bottom should be lower.  IMHO, The middle and the bottom look better swapped.  That way the progression would be more even.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Non-Timered ones are just too high across the board.  These are super-easy to do, and the rewards should reflect that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Coin:</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>On the Timered ones, the coin looks fine to me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the Non-Timered ones, the bottom and middle ones should be lower.  They should match the top one as being half the coin of it's Timered counterpart. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, these are super-easy.  There is no risk involved at all.  If you fail at the Non-Timered ones then I must say, tradeskilling is not for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My personal opinion is that the Non-Timered ones need a Timer too, not the level of the rush ones, but certainly something (maybe double the timer?)  Or the rewards need to really be less than half of the Timered ones.  It's just a bit too (I can't think of the right word, but means even more than absolutely simple).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bug:</DIV> <DIV>The Work Order Foreman does not accept the Non-Timered writs after completion.  Thankfully, the delete works now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's really looking good though, just needs some tuning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ZeyGnome]

<DIV>26 done so far today.  Here are the bugs I have found (Not bad at all!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>47 Alchemist</DIV> <DIV>49 Monk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Superb Distillation (Rush Order) T4 Difficult</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Quest asks for 10 Merciless Stomps.  The graphic it shows is that of a potion/poison.  This brings the required amount of items to be completed in this writ to 15, which in 8:20 is not possible.  The writ thinks its a potion/poison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Deleting Timered Writs</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>If you delete a timered writ and get a new one, the new writ starts off with the remaining timer from the deleted writ.  You can delete and get new ones, but it will always still be counting down.  Let timer run out and then there is no problem after that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Guild Events</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>When you complete a Tradeskill Writ it is not recorded in the Guild Events Log, even if you have the 'Guild Member Completes Guild Writ' checked.  It really should be recorded there so that the guild can recognize the contributions of their tradeskillers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's it!  So far that's the only ones I have come across.  Later today i will be moving on to the next Tradeskill (Tailoring I think) to test it out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of these were /bugged also.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sunrayn]

<P>As someone else stated, the turn-in for non timed writs is bugged.  I got back 92silver, 16 copper on making the final teak roundshield.  Quest then said to return to the work order foreman for the reward.  Hailed him.  He thanks you for your work but gives no money, no status and the quest still says to return to him.</P> <P>*edit upon doing the math*  You lose money on these still....92 silver and 16 copper is the fuel cost for making ONE shield, that is the amount paid out upon making the last combine...</P> <P>Back to adventure writs</P><p>Message Edited by Sunrayn on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:16 AM</span>

[ZeyGnome]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <P>As someone else stated, the turn-in for non timed writs is bugged.  I got back 92silver, 16 copper on making the final teak roundshield.  Quest then said to return to the work order foreman for the reward.  Hailed him.  He thanks you for your work but gives no money, no status and the quest still says to return to him.</P> <P>Back to adventure writs</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The timered writs work.  Why not do those?  They need checking.

[Malestrom]

<P>I just tried the new rush orders on test server and for the Tier 3 ones I got 12 silver (plus the reimbursement of fuel along the way).  That was for the Hard ones, for the easy ones it was 6 silver, and for the non timed it was 3 silver.  I did the provisioner ones.</P> <P>One of the things that I think could help is if we get some kind of prep screen that tells us what we're going to make before the timer starts.  On one of the tasks I got it had me make something that I did not have the raw for and I had to basically wait for the rush order to time out before I could do it again.</P> <P>On the whole I think that the new tasks will work.  I would like to something a bit more creative than just adding a simple timer to the writ system, but it at least puts something there for crafters to do.</P> <P> </P>

[Eveningsong]

There is a problem with the per item fuel payment, on advanced journeyman carpenter writs at least. Most of my writs seem to ask for 1 of several items and then 3 of the final item. The individual items pay out the fuel costs upon completion perfectly, but when I start the group of 3, I only get paid out once all 3 are completed, and the amount is actually only the fuel cost of 1 item, not 3. I've /bugged this, but testing people should be wary of doing writs that have large fuel costs with multiple items. This happened to me on both the rush and non-rush work orders. I have to say that I find the pay-as-you-go for fuel a bit distracting as I'm trundling through trying to finish my writs on time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but it is nice to get paid both for the fuel, and again at the end with the fee. BTW, my non-rush writ was also unfinishable. The text from both the rush and non-rush npcs looked like they were completing/paying out the quest, but neither had the finished quest flag and no payment/quest completion occurred.

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eveningsong wrote:<BR>There is a problem with the per item fuel payment, on advanced journeyman carpenter writs at least. Most of my writs seem to ask for 1 of several items and then 3 of the final item. The individual items pay out the fuel costs upon completion perfectly, but when I start the group of 3, I only get paid out once all 3 are completed, and the amount is actually only the fuel cost of 1 item, not 3. I've /bugged this, but testing people should be wary of doing writs that have large fuel costs with multiple items. This happened to me on both the rush and non-rush work orders. I have to say that I find the pay-as-you-go for fuel a bit distracting as I'm trundling through trying to finish my writs on time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but it is nice to get paid both for the fuel, and again at the end with the fee. <BR><BR>BTW, my non-rush writ was also unfinishable. The text from both the rush and non-rush npcs looked like they were completing/paying out the quest, but neither had the finished quest flag and no payment/quest completion occurred.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It isnt just the multiple item payout that isnt working, my 43 woodworker had to make 6 teak roundshields.  He got ONE payout and that was after he completed the sixth shield and the payout was only 92 silver, 16 copper, the cost of fuel for that last shield.  The other 5 shields I made netted nothing.

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Malestrom wrote:<BR> <P>*snipped*</P> <P>One of the things that I think could help is if we get some kind of<U> prep screen that tells us what we're going to make before the timer starts</U>.  On one of the tasks I got it had me make something that I did not have the raw for and I had to basically wait for the rush order to time out before I could do it again.</P> <P>*snipped*</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I was wondering about that issue .. I am not on the test center but I follow those items that interest me very closely .. and this issue interests me greatly .. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Dymus</STRONG></FONT>!!!  Please! Change the Rush Orders to tell us what is required BEFORE the timer starts!  It doesn't make sense!  Even if you are thinking this will limit bott'g - it's not going to! It's just going to fustrate more legitimate Tradeskillers than not! Someone who writes a script to do what bots do isn't going to be annoyed at having to stock up on multiple boxes of different tiers worth of items but for us regular Tradeskillers we are going to have to do a lot of juggling and cursing the TS Dev while waiting for that timer to run out so we can try it again!<BR></P> <P>*ponders* Though, I suppose it doesn't show the items till you have 'memmed' the quest because it doesn't exist because it is a standard name quest?  Once you start to 'mem' the quest the database spits out a random series of requirements and starts the timer?   In which case, having the contents of the writ would require for the writ to be randomized upon selection .. which "might" require individual quest names?  ... *ponders more* .. but if the Writ is randomized upon 'memmed' status .. why can't you change it to be randomized upon selection with the same quest name .. *acquires a headache*  Flow Charts in head Bite! .. Ya know the actual form doesn't have to actually say what it required on it .. the randomized writ requirements could be shunted to open chat the way the Old Recipe List would do. </P> <P> *sigh* I saw a TV commerical for Devry's Game Designer Course .. I'm thinking it might be a good idea to go take a couple courses just to be able to make better suggestions.  *laughs* New Player Requirements: (1) year in Game Design. </P>

[Bratface]

<div><blockquote><hr>KerowynnKaotic wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Malestrom wrote: <div></div> <p>*snipped*</p> <p>One of the things that I think could help is if we get some kind of<u> prep screen that tells us what we're going to make before the timer starts</u>.  On one of the tasks I got it had me make something that I did not have the raw for and I had to basically wait for the rush order to time out before I could do it again.</p> <p>*snipped*</p> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I was wondering about that issue .. I am not on the test center but I follow those items that interest me very closely .. and this issue interests me greatly .. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>Dymus</strong></font>!!!  Please! <u>Change the Rush Orders to tell us what is required BEFORE the timer starts</u>!  It doesn't make sense!  Even if you are thinking this will limit bott'g - it's not going to! It's just going to fustrate more legitimate Tradeskillers than not! Someone who writes a script to do what bots do isn't going to be annoyed at having to stock up on multiple boxes of different tiers worth of items but for us regular Tradeskillers we are going to have to do a lot of juggling and cursing the TS Dev while waiting for that timer to run out so we can try it again!</p> <p>*ponders* Though, I suppose it doesn't show the items till you have 'memmed' the quest because it doesn't exist because it is a standard name quest?  Once you start to 'mem' the quest the database spits out a random series of requirements and starts the timer?   In which case, having the contents of the writ would require for the writ to be randomized upon selection .. which "might" require individual quest names?  ... *ponders more* .. but if the Writ is randomized upon 'memmed' status .. why can't you change it to be randomized upon selection with the same quest name .. *acquires a headache*  Flow Charts in head Bite! .. Ya know the actual form doesn't have to actually say what it required on it .. the randomized writ requirements could be shunted to open chat the way the Old Recipe List would do. </p> <p> *sigh* I saw a TV commerical for Devry's Game Designer Course .. I'm thinking it might be a good idea to go take a couple courses just to be able to make better suggestions.  *laughs* New Player Requirements: (1) year in Game Design. </p><hr></blockquote>I am glad someone else said it instead of me, I mentioned this in another thread and was shot down by "certain people", I think it's unreasonable to need to be prepared for ANY recipe that I could get and have to stuff my bags with every possible item to prepare for every possible eventuallity, but "certain" other people disagreed and I quit posting anything about it.If the NPC knows what they want, would it be so far to stretch to be able to tell me what I need to make it? Something, anything, but I don't want to have to lug around every raw or purchased items (Prov) just "in case" I need it for a writ.Life is too short and bags are too smal imo.... Hassle factor is not a good thing.</div>

[Dymus]

<DIV>There are two major bugs affecting the work orders as people have mentioned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- If you have a multi-combine step right now the work order is only re-imbursing you for a single combine.  (This is not necessarily a simple fix but I'll see how quickly I can get it done.)</DIV> <DIV>- Untimed work orders are not able to be completed.  The work order NPC's are not correctly triggering the end step, that will be fixed soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the suggestion of having the work orders tell you what they need before you get the timer... that would be nice but unfortunately this is not possible.  Each 'step' in a work order has a set of things it can pull from and it randomizes when you get to that step.  This keeps the maintenence of this system lower as there are fewer quests to keep up to date.  In order for it to display what is required before it starts the timer would force a single quest for each and every randomization possibility (or enough to have things somewhat random).  That would be a huge upkeep nightmare (which is what the old system was) and defeat one of the goals for this new system.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the possible solutions which can work is adjusting the timers for each individual work order if one winds up being too difficult.</DIV>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>*snipped*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Each 'step' in a work order has a set of things it can pull from and it randomizes when you get to that step.  *snipped*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the possible solutions which can work is adjusting the timers for each individual work order if one winds up being too difficult.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>*sigh* I was afraid you were going to say that ...</P> <P>Are the writs at least set to display which tier they are from?  If not can it be set without too much hassle?  </P> <P>-- I read in this thread that were muliple types of writs : advanced, journeyman & apprentice ... do those dictate which tier the writ will be from?  2 tiers under / 1 tier under / even  ??  or are they mostly for timer/item # contraints ?  </P> <P>-- The actual ingredients aren't quite so important as to which Tier to stock for.   ie:  everything I use as a tailor revolves around roots, leather, wood & metal.  Therefor I can be ready for any item as long as I know what tier to stock up for. </P>

[ZeyGnome]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KerowynnKaotic wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>*snipped*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Each 'step' in a work order has a set of things it can pull from and it randomizes when you get to that step.  *snipped*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the possible solutions which can work is adjusting the timers for each individual work order if one winds up being too difficult.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>*sigh* I was afraid you were going to say that ...</P> <P>Are the writs at least set to display which tier they are from?  If not can it be set without too much hassle?  </P> <P>-- I read in this thread that were muliple types of writs : advanced, journeyman & apprentice ... do those dictate which tier the writ will be from?  2 tiers under / 1 tier under / even  ??  or are they mostly for timer/item # contraints ?  </P> <P>-- The actual ingredients aren't quite so important as to which Tier to stock for.   ie:  everything I use as a tailor revolves around roots, leather, wood & metal.  Therefor I can be ready for any item as long as I know what tier to stock up for. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It is listed in the selector when you ask for the quest.  In my case, 47 alch, it says, from top down - T5 Difficult, T5, T4 Difficult.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by ZeyGnome on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:08 PM</span>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>There are two major bugs affecting the work orders as people have mentioned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- <STRONG>If you have a multi-combine step right now the work order is only re-imbursing you for a single combine.  (This is not necessarily a simple fix but I'll see how quickly I can get it done.)</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>- Untimed work orders are not able to be completed.  The work order NPC's are not correctly triggering the end step, that will be fixed soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Its not just the multi combine that is doing that.  My 43 woodworker got a writ to make 6 teak roundshields.  That was the whole writ.  I only got one reimbursement and that was after completing the final shield and it was only 92 silver, 16 copper; the fuel cost for one shield.  It was an untimed writ so, I lost not only the fuel cost for 5 shields but the final reward also.

[ZeyGnome]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>There are two major bugs affecting the work orders as people have mentioned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- <STRONG>If you have a multi-combine step right now the work order is only re-imbursing you for a single combine.  (This is not necessarily a simple fix but I'll see how quickly I can get it done.)</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>- Untimed work orders are not able to be completed.  The work order NPC's are not correctly triggering the end step, that will be fixed soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><STRONG>Its not just the multi combine that is doing that.  My 43 woodworker got a writ to make 6 teak roundshields.</STRONG>  That was the whole writ.  I only got one reimbursement and that was after completing the final shield and it was only 92 silver, 16 copper; the fuel cost for one shield.  It was an untimed writ so, I lost not only the fuel cost for 5 shields but the final reward also.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That's a multi-combine.<BR>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ZeyGnome wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>That's a multi-combine.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I was thinking the make 2 of these, make 2 of a different product as his meaning for 'multi combine'

[ZeyGnome]

<P>Ahh, I was thinking any multiple of the same item as a multi-combine, regardless of the number.</P> <P> </P>

[leiela]

<P>ok im not on test .. so really i prolly shouldn't be commenting... but what i wonder about is why "knowing What you need .. before the timer starts is so important ?" </P> <P>Ok i can under stand it means you have to keep multiple tiers worth of fuel / raws etc on you but whys that bad? .. currently im in the middle of a raid with my guild and should i happen upon a crafting bench in the labs of Vyem .. can confidently say i could make any comman item in my recipe book ... </P> <P>Even Adventuring i don't bother empting my bags of all my crafting gear and i generally keep at least 1 stack of each and ever raw i could need from T1 - T7 + a few stacks of fuel.  </P> <P>I know the new writs can be from various levels but im <STRONG>guessing</STRONG> a T7 crafter is only realistically looking at getting writs from T6 and T7 .. possibally T5 .. with raws in stacks of 50 and fuel in stacks of 100 ... you dont really need that much space to hold everything you need... all you need to do is re-stokc the raws you used after you finnish a writ and get the next one. </P> <P> </P>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leiela wrote:<BR> <P>ok im not on test .. so really i prolly shouldn't be commenting... but what i wonder about is why "knowing What you need .. before the timer starts is so important ?" </P> <P>Ok i can under stand it means you have to keep multiple tiers worth of fuel / raws etc on you but whys that bad? .. currently im in the middle of a raid with my guild and should i happen upon a crafting bench in the labs of Vyem .. can confidently say i could make any comman item in my recipe book ... </P> <P>Even Adventuring i don't bother empting my bags of all my crafting gear and i generally keep at least 1 stack of each and ever raw i could need from T1 - T7 + a few stacks of fuel.  </P> <P>I know the new writs can be from various levels but im <STRONG>guessing</STRONG> a T7 crafter is only realistically looking at getting writs from T6 and T7 .. possibally T5 .. with raws in stacks of 50 and fuel in stacks of 100 ... you dont really need that much space to hold everything you need... all you need to do is re-stokc the raws you used after you finnish a writ and get the next one. </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think the main reason is because not everyone carries 28-32 slot strongboxes on them or uses six 18 slot bags.  With potions, armor, weapons, shields, food, drink, My guard's space is pretty much limited.  No, I dont carry strong boxes because I do mentor a lot.  Imagine what would happen if I mentored carrying all those boxes  =)

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leiela wrote:<BR> <P>Ok i can under stand it means you have to keep multiple tiers worth of fuel / raws etc on you but whys that bad? .. currently im in the middle of a raid with my guild and should i happen upon a crafting bench in the labs of Vyem .. can confidently say i could make any comman item in my recipe book ...<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well good for you. I for one see absolutely no reason to drag around multiple tiers of raws as 99% of the time Im going to be crafting T7 combines.  You ask why not carry it all with you? I ask why waste the space? Especially when the majority of the time it would take me a minute to grab the raws I need from the bank. I dont need them when adventuring so why carry them..if I stopped in the middle of a raid to craft I can see 23 very [Removed for Content] off people wondering [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] are they doing...</P> <P>A lot of people organize their bank inventory by tier. I know many people who have a T1-T7 Box that carries all their needed raws/fuel for that tier. That way they  can simply switch off their adventuring bags for a TS box.</P> <P>My inventory is full enough as it is, with quest items, loot I havent gotten around to selling, alternate Jewelry/armor for resist specific mobs, book quest, random collection pieces, partial stacks of raws etc, that I have no desire to add to the mess by having to carrying raws for every tier. I cant even remember the last time I did a T3 combine, [Removed for Content] would I carry T3 fuel or raws with me?  T7 fuel is expensive. At 23gp a stack I dont buy it until I need it, plus when I adventure, I adventure. If I wanted to craft Id stay in the TS instance.</P> <P>Again, while I dont have to know the specific recipie, it would be<STRONG> nice, nice</STRONG> not critical to know what tier the receipes I need are.</P> <P>To some space is a premium, we cant all carry around 6 32 slot boxes..</P>

[Bratface]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sunrayn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> leiela wrote: <div></div> <p>ok im not on test .. so really i prolly shouldn't be commenting... but what i wonder about is why "knowing What you need .. before the timer starts is so important ?" </p> <p>Ok i can under stand it means you have to keep multiple tiers worth of fuel / raws etc on you but whys that bad? .. currently im in the middle of a raid with my guild and should i happen upon a crafting bench in the labs of Vyem .. can confidently say i could make any comman item in my recipe book ... </p> <p>Even Adventuring i don't bother empting my bags of all my crafting gear and i generally keep at least 1 stack of each and ever raw i could need from T1 - T7 + a few stacks of fuel.  </p> <p>I know the new writs can be from various levels but im <strong>guessing</strong> a T7 crafter is only realistically looking at getting writs from T6 and T7 .. possibally T5 .. with raws in stacks of 50 and fuel in stacks of 100 ... you dont really need that much space to hold everything you need... all you need to do is re-stokc the raws you used after you finnish a writ and get the next one. </p> <hr> </blockquote>I think the main reason is because not everyone carries 28-32 slot strongboxes on them or uses six 18 slot bags.  With potions, armor, weapons, shields, food, drink, My guard's space is pretty much limited.  No, I dont carry strong boxes because I do mentor a lot.  Imagine what would happen if I mentored carrying all those boxes  =)<hr></blockquote>My bags are always full (don't carry boxes), I have quest items on me that I need every time I put them in bank so I have given up and just lug them around, and different weapons/gear, not to mention I need a bag just for stripping down to do tradeskills.I wouldn't mind so much except room is so dear, I'd be happy with a simple mouse over on each choice with the total of whats needed, the quest may be pulling from random recipes, but even that must be finite or else you would have huge upkeep on them, so maybe just add the recipe mouseover information to the quest... I don't know, I just know that starting one and finding out that one of the things you need is in the bank really sucks, or you are just one short to be able to complete.Oh well, at least we can earn faction again.</div>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leiela wrote:<BR> <P>ok im not on test .. so really i prolly shouldn't be commenting... but what i wonder about is why "knowing What you need .. before the timer starts is so important ?"</P> <P>*snipped*<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think the main reason is because <STRONG><U>not everyone carries 28-32 slot strongboxes</U> <U>on them or uses six 18 slot bags</U></STRONG>.  *snipped* <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is my main reason!  Other than My Alchy (me) all my TS'rs are limited to 12-14 slot backpacks.  And, as far as I go I only have (1) Large Collectors Bag & (1) Evil Eye bag to be different in space available.   I think my tailor can now make 16 slot backpacks but I don't have the extra cash to waste on changing all the bags out.   I am mearly grinding (<EM>gah what an ugly word</EM>) through TS levels as fast as my harvestables & fuel coin allows for my tailor.   Check out the Tailoring section to see (1) of my projects ...</P> <P>I look at these writs as a way to not only gain back my fuel money but also abit of padding and status for my guild to boot.  </P> <P>But, space is very limited on my characters already.   I may have boxes full T1 - T5 harvestables but  I can't carry them all!  So, pre-planning is a necessary evil!<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ZeyGnome wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KerowynnKaotic wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>*snipped*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*snpped* <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><STRONG>It is listed in the selector when you ask for the quest.  In my case, 47 alch, it says, from top down - T5 Difficult, T5, T4 Difficult.</STRONG></P> <P></P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*nods happily* This eases my mind abit.   Thank you!<BR></P><p>Message Edited by KerowynnKaotic on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:38 PM</span>

[Llogwey]

<P>For my part I have 3 T7 boxes in my shared bank (one alchemist and one sage in Freeport, so it's easier). The 3 boxes are placed one near the other so it's quite easy. That gives</P> <P>First box - first Line--------------------------box2 - line1---------------------box3-line1</P> <P>2 stacks roots - 2s stack wood -----2 stack gems -2 minerals-----3stack loam-1stack ore</P> <P>Fist line for T1, second line for T2, third line for T3... </P> <P>So I have all I need in my bank and when I go crafting I use my very-very-big-bag from the crafting quest in fallen dinasty. But I do not take all with me when I'm going crafting (a poor necro dark-elf with 25in stength cannot take a strongbox on her <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</P> <P>As far as I'm concerned, if the Tier is written then there's no problem, I just take my T7 roots, gems and loam and go crafting. </P>

[HazlenutElf]

<DIV>Just did another writ on on my carpenter this time. It was one of the rush order ones. The coin reimbursedment was off, but it sounds like that's this is a known issue being tweeked. The order was for 6 feyiron sconces, I received 15s 36c when I completed the 6 itmes, and another 24s when I handed it in. Actual coin spent on fuel was 92s 16c.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, there was no message broadcast to the guild when I completed the writ. I double checked the guild event filters and boradcast and retain guild writs were both turned on. I recived 3159 personal status, and the guild received 351 status. I also gained a level while doing the writ which was broadcast and recorded.</DIV>

[Didi]

<P>I had a tier 3 timed alchemist work order today.  Seemed to work fine in terms of coin reimbursements for the various parts of it, BUT, it would not accept the "Divine Wrath (Apprentice IV)" that I created.  It was asking for Apprentice IV: Divine Wrath and that's the only item in my books that matched the name, all the other App IV's it asked for updated fine, just not that one.</P> <P> </P>

[Canel]

Maybe a smart idea would also to have like "Mastercraft workorders" or something-where while you need to supply your own raws ect.-the number of required products would be like 3-5 ect. and would reward mabye all the rewards a whole teir up would reward a regular? For T7 maybe have 1/2 x as many rewards as would be regular?

[Dymus]

<DIV>So with the next update to test the last of the major bugs should be gone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Each step will give you the fuel cost for what you were asked to create on multi-combine steps instead of just counting one.</DIV> <DIV>- The untimed work orders should be able to be completed rather than the work order foreman telling you that you did a good job but not taking the time to pay you for it.</DIV> <DIV>- The work orders should generate guild events properly.</DIV> <DIV>- The status values should all be correct on the work orders, both timed and untimed.</DIV> <DIV>- Tailor and Armorer work orders should have their icons and correct grammar.</DIV> <DIV>- Alchemist work orders should have correct grammar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ZeyGnome]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>So with the next update to test the last of the major bugs should be gone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Each step will give you the fuel cost for what you were asked to create on multi-combine steps instead of just counting one.</DIV> <DIV>- The untimed work orders should be able to be completed rather than the work order foreman telling you that you did a good job but not taking the time to pay you for it.</DIV> <DIV>- The work orders should generate guild events properly.</DIV> <DIV>- The status values should all be correct on the work orders, both timed and untimed.</DIV> <DIV>- Tailor and Armorer work orders should have their icons and correct grammar.</DIV> <DIV>- Alchemist work orders should have correct grammar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Woot!  Thank you.

[Megera]

I keep my vendor boxes with a stack of raws so i'm in the instance already and can grab what i need.  Probably not what it was meant for, but it is very handy for rush orders.  So i lose a few slots I could be selling on - oh, well.<div></div>

[Kethaera]

<div><blockquote><hr>Megera wrote:I keep my vendor boxes with a stack of raws so i'm in the instance already and can grab what i need.  Probably not what it was meant for, but it is very handy for rush orders.  So i lose a few slots I could be selling on - oh, well.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Very clever! I hadn't thought of that. **makes a note**</div>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>So with the next update to test the last of the major bugs should be gone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Each step will give you the fuel cost for what you were asked to create on multi-combine steps instead of just counting one.</DIV> <DIV>- The untimed work orders should be able to be completed rather than the work order foreman telling you that you did a good job but not taking the time to pay you for it.</DIV> <DIV>- The work orders should generate guild events properly.</DIV> <DIV>- The status values should all be correct on the work orders, both timed and untimed.</DIV> <DIV>- Tailor and Armorer work orders should have their icons and correct grammar.</DIV> <DIV>- Alchemist work orders should have correct grammar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, the good news is, Untimed writs are now completeable and pay out the reward, 36 silver and 2993 SP for a T5 writ.</P> <P>Bad news is, fuel costs are still returned only on the final combine for the last thing made.  In my case, I lost fuel cost on 5 combines.</P> <P>They do not generate guild events either, at least for the untimed.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Sunrayn on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:22 PM</span>

[ZeyGnome]

<P>Okay, the rewards are pretty much all over the board, and they are definitely not correct:</P> <P><STRONG><U>Timed Tradeskill Writs</U></STRONG></P> <P>T6 Alchemist  - 1g 62s - 4000 -150 <BR>T5 Difficult  - 1g 8s - 5280 - 150 <BR>T5 Talented - 1g 8s - 3822 - 150 <BR>T5 Alchemist - 72s - 2951 - 150</P> <P><STRONG><U>Non-Timed Tradeskill Writ</U></STRONG></P> <P>T6 Alchemist - 81s - 3200 - 100 <BR>T5 Difficult - 54s - 4526 - 100<BR>T5 Talented - 54s - 3726 - 100<BR>T5 Alchemist - 36s - 2530 - 100</P> <P>As you can see from the rewards chart for my 50 Alchemist, they are just confused.  The hardest writ gans less status than the easier one. (Not to mention the non-timed easier one being better than the hardest timed one).</P> <P>The non-timed ones are just wrong.    There is nothing at all being risked on these, and they can take 3 weeks to complete it, yet the rewards (based on the difference for the lowest one which looks to be closest to correct) are way too much.   The rewards should be at most about 1/4 of the reward for the timed ones.  I don't understand why there was even an allowance for non-timed ones, because it rewards someone for being lazy. This is like rewarding someone for being able to put on slip-on shoes.</P> <P>When any of the right rewards finally do make it into the game, then I will judge it again, but from the way things are going, it looks like it would be more effective to do the non-timed ones, which defeated the whole purpose of the revamp since it was supposed to be based on the 'greater returns for greater risk' principal as stated originally when this new system was described.  </P> <P>If this is how its going to be then you might as well scrap it and just put back the old system, since the net result is exactly the same.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by ZeyGnome on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:41 PM</span>

[Piltow]

<P>Tier 3 Provisioner Work Order:</P> <P>Step 1 - Make 6 Lion Steaks</P> <P>Made 7 because of 1 missed pristine.</P> <P>Payout 1s 40c</P> <P>Cost (if 3 pristine) 1s 96c</P> <P>Took all 7 steaks.</P> <P>Step 2 - Make 6 Oolong tea</P> <P>Made 6</P> <P>Payout 1s 40c</P> <P>Cost 1s 20c</P> <P>TOTAL Payout 2s 80c</P> <P>Cost (all pristine) 3s 16c</P> <P>Turn in 1640 status, 3s</P> <P>Net compensation 2s 64c (5s 80c - 3s 16c)</P> <P>Main problem with provisioner (and I guess it is happening on arrows etc) is the eating of extra made items. Unless this is intended as a penalty for not getting pristine.</P> <P>MINOR bug. When you go to turn in the work order for reward, the work order foreman does not have the completion icon over him. He does take the work order turn in and give the reward anyway.</P> <P> </P>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ZeyGnome wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>The non-timed ones are just wrong.    There is nothing at all being risked on these, and they can take 3 weeks to complete it, yet the rewards (based on the difference for the lowest one which looks to be closest to correct) are way too much.   The rewards should be at most about 1/4 of the reward for the timed ones.  I don't understand why there was even an allowance for non-timed ones, because it rewards someone for being lazy. This is like rewarding someone for being able to put on slip-on shoes.</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by ZeyGnome on <SPAN class=date_text>08-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:41 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Looks like the coin reward for the untimed is *half* what it is for the timed.  You dont understand why there was an allowance for untimed?  Just like not everyone can put on shoes and tie them, not everyone can do the timed writs.  Should those people just not be rewarded?

[ZeyGnome]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ZeyGnome wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>The non-timed ones are just wrong.    There is nothing at all being risked on these, and they can take 3 weeks to complete it, yet the rewards (based on the difference for the lowest one which looks to be closest to correct) are way too much.   The rewards should be at most about 1/4 of the reward for the timed ones.  I don't understand why there was even an allowance for non-timed ones, because it rewards someone for being lazy. This is like rewarding someone for being able to put on slip-on shoes.</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by ZeyGnome on <SPAN class=date_text>08-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:41 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Looks like the coin reward for the untimed is *half* what it is for the timed.  You dont understand why there was an allowance for untimed?  Just like not everyone can put on shoes and tie them, not everyone can do the timed writs.  Should those people just not be rewarded?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Honestly, no, they shouldn't. </P> <P>Certainly not with the faction, coin, and status levels they are getting.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by ZeyGnome on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:14 PM</span>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ZeyGnome wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ZeyGnome wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>The non-timed ones are just wrong.    There is nothing at all being risked on these, and they can take 3 weeks to complete it, yet the rewards (based on the difference for the lowest one which looks to be closest to correct) are way too much.   The rewards should be at most about 1/4 of the reward for the timed ones.  I don't understand why there was even an allowance for non-timed ones, because it rewards someone for being lazy. This is like rewarding someone for being able to put on slip-on shoes.</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by ZeyGnome on <SPAN class=date_text>08-24-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>04:41 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Looks like the coin reward for the untimed is *half* what it is for the timed.  You dont understand why there was an allowance for untimed?  Just like not everyone can put on shoes and tie them, not everyone can do the timed writs.  Should those people just not be rewarded?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Honestly, no, they shouldn't. </P> <P>Certainly not with the faction, coin, and status levels they are getting.</P> <P>Message Edited by ZeyGnome on <SPAN class=date_text>08-24-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:14 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well .. both options are quests and therefore should have a reward .. but .. yes .. the current rewards (for the set you are testing) are a bit strange.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Timed Tradeskill Writs</U></STRONG></P> <P>T6 Alchemist  - 1g 62s - 4000 -150 <BR>T5 Difficult  - 1g 8s - 5280 - 150<BR>T5 Talented - 1g 8s - 3822 - 150<BR>T5 Alchemist - 72s - 2951 - 150</P> <P><STRONG><U>Non-Timed Tradeskill Writ</U></STRONG></P> <P>T6 Alchemist - 81s - 3200 - 100<BR>T5 Difficult - 54s - 4526 - 100<BR>T5 Talented - 54s - 3726 - 100<BR>T5 Alchemist - 36s - 2530 - 100</P> <P>The Timed Versions rewards seem "ok".  </P> <P>But the Non-Timed Versions should be slighty less - The coin recieved as reward (above the cost of fuel, right?) could stand to be 1/4th of the Timed Version and the Status should always be 1/2 of the Timed Version.  The Faction is fine.  Really, since Adv writs get 150 faction and they too can be completed at leisure and can actually be "farmed" at lower levels; 100 faction for the Non Timed Version is fine.  </P> <P>If the biggest difference is in the Coin for the Timed Writs then there is still the "Greater Reward" for "Greater Risk" but those that prefer the steady route can still see some kind of reward. </P> <P>Both options have to have some kind of reward.  Not everyone will be able to do the Timed Versions.   I am worried about them; I lag like a dog in heat in an empty tradeskill zone .. add .. 20 people and it can be come un-bearable!   I can easily run through Qeynos Harbor with Extreme Everything but if I need to zone into a TS zone I have to move nearly everything down to minimal <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KerowynnKaotic wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>But the Non-Timed Versions should be slighty less - The coin recieved as reward (above the cost of fuel, right?) could stand to be 1/4th of the Timed Version and the Status should always be 1/2 of the Timed Version.  The Faction is fine.  Really, since Adv writs get 150 faction and they too can be completed at leisure and can actually be "farmed" at lower levels; 100 faction for the Non Timed Version is fine.  </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If the biggest difference is in the Coin for the Timed Writs then there is still the "Greater Reward" for "Greater Risk" but those that prefer the steady route can still see some kind of reward. </P> <P>Both options have to have some kind of reward.  Not everyone will be able to do the Timed Versions.   I am worried about them; I lag like a dog in heat in an empty tradeskill zone .. add .. 20 people and it can be come un-bearable!   I can easily run through Qeynos Harbor with Extreme Everything but if I need to zone into a TS zone I have to move nearly everything down to minimal <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The coin reward is right where it should be, no more, no less.  The status should be the same as the coin reward, half.   There is hardly a coin reward now.  Remember, the writs have now become the ONLY way to make a profit, level up and pay for tradeskill books since the crafting 'revamp'.</P> <P>Anything less and the untimed writs are better off being taken out completely.</P>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KerowynnKaotic wrote:<BR> *snipped* <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The coin reward is right where it should be, no more, no less.  The status should be the same as the coin reward, half.   There is hardly a coin reward now.  Remember, the writs have now become the ONLY way to make a profit, level up and pay for tradeskill books since the crafting 'revamp'.</P> <P>Anything less and the untimed writs are better off being taken out completely.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not really.  To level up: (with the exception of Provisioners) all one must do is to fill bags full of harvests and fuel & pick an "even" color "common" recipe and repeat till out of fuel.  Take all those "common" items to fuel vendor .. sell back and restock with fuel .. repeat till out of harvests, you ding or your eyeballs bleed, either or.  </P> <P>The difference on the Writs should be along the lines of .. "Rewarding" & "Tip".    If Dymus wants to bump up the Timed Writ Cash Pay-out just a smudge that would be nice but the cash pay-out on the Non-Timed shouldn't be "almost" as good.  They are (2) different quests.  One is a limited / risk involved / higher pay-out quest.  The other is a "Go-For" Quest; it should lean more on it's Status & Faction as a reward and the cash pay-out (above the cost of fuel/extras) should be considered a "tip" or "bonus" not a guarenteed "get rich quick and easy route".  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by KerowynnKaotic on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:08 PM</span>

[Deson]

I definitely agree with the sentiment being expressed here but maybe instead of reducing the reward of the non-timed writs, they should just have a lockout timer like the old ones did when they go live and maybe be undeletable for that time. If you really dont have 8 straight minutes to craft you shouldn't be worried about not being able to chain grab writs. The rewards can be even be equal, just gate what the non-timed people can do.<div></div>

[Dymus]

<DIV> <DIV>I've made a few adjustments to the status rewards on the untimed and timed work orders.  The untimed ones are not 'half' but they are less.  Keep in mind that the old writs did reward some decent status on them and they were untimed.  Now that the functionality works correctly for all aspects of the work orders (with the update tonight or tomorrow to test) it's very easy to adjust the total number of combines inside these work orders on an individual basis.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the untimed ones (since they were a late addition based on feedback) I'm going to increase the total number of combines needed.  This is a more gentle way of timing these out than putting a lockout timer on gaining another.  That should balance the entirety of these out pretty well once that is done.  So yes, the untimed work orders are going to require more combines to finish, and they will take longer than the timed ones, which means that the rewards for the timed work orders will be better by a product of time invested, beyond just the higher overall rewards.</DIV></DIV>

[dankaro]

First thing I would like to say is GREAT JOB so far on this devs I like what I am reading. I am not on test (I dont have enuf time to tradeskill my nine classes adventure 3 of em and run a guild lol) So second thank you every one who is and working with the devs i am sure they consider your input vital. A few  comments based on reading. how long does it take a bot to set up automation the not telling us ahead of time what is needed before timer starts is undone by the fact that once the timer runs out you can restart it. log toon 1 get writ  get stuff set up log toon 2 repeat then cycle back through and run autos once the cycle is going the only time loss is the initial run.  So i believe the actual intent is for it to be random so the devs dont have to write 1000's of individual writs. Besides the best way of stopping them is enforcement just like no safe is crack proof no game can be as soon as the devs figure out how to prevent one method they will figure another way to do it. So to keep that from happening please report it when you see it take the time to report the plat spam etc. Now all that being said I dont have an issue with not being told as long as i can know the tier lol timed or untimed who heads to the crafting zone without stacks of the raws they are going to need. The idea of using the broker slots for holding raws is so simple its brilliant lol. thank you i always wanted a bank available in the trade zones. Devs they are all correct Lag is going to be an issue in trade zones you need to put more in reinstate all the old ones or something between all crafters using and the broker and people bringing they're pets (out of courtesey I destroy mine before entering trade zone hint) LAG is going to be an issue on live trust us and fix ahead of time please cause you are gonna have to fix it one way or the other. I dont have a problem with timed untimed the way they are proposed I for one will  be doing the timed but after coaching so many players that are loyal or dedicated in how to get pristine I can see the need for untimed. with 300 levels of combined trade xp i can do six pristine in 8 minutes easily. The only way i fail to get pristine is if i am trying to chat during a combine lol. The rewards are appropriate everyone is saying but you can do 5 or 6 an hour adventures cant isnt taking in to account for harvesting time to get all the raws to do them. go ahead try it with no raws in inventory then go harvest exactley what you need and  come back and do the combines you'll be lucky to do 2 an hour. I both harvest my own raws and sell excess I refuse to pay the prices for my own crafting but will happily take your money. so i agree if you dont like the prices of raws go harvest them yourself. That being said DEVS can we balance the harvesting some almost everything requires roots. SO more root node and less shrubs lol ( I think you replace all the fungi with shrubs lol). All in all i think it is fantastic so HURRY i am chomping at the bit and harvesting my tail off in preparation. <div></div>

[Deson]

Sounds good to me! Thanks for all the great work Dymus! Can't wait to test these on live.Off question, where's Beghn? busy doing all the EoF stuff?Kinda weird you doing all the posting when he's the TS dev.Back on topic, some classes use far more resources than others in combines, will there be a way to adjust reward for that? There is also an issue that was only mentioned here briefly about the arts.Because not every one gets effective arts early on<coughs> metalsmiths<coughs>is there some larger plan to deal with those? Derailing again- can we get a post about the current larger TS vision plans in the works? As more and more features get added, some classes inequalities are showing up more and more and it would nice to know if there was some plan to even things out. ...Actually, I'm going to start a feedback thread now(or find a preexisiting one)<div></div>

[Lornick]

I really like the way these tradeskill writs are shaping up.  Thanks for all the work =)

[Dymus]

<DIV>Beghn, like the rest of the designers who do real work on a regular basis are chained to their desks toiling away on the expansion and its associated massive amount of content.</DIV>

[Piltow]

<P>Alchemist Lvl 20-21 test</P> <P>Make 3 Lay on hands and 3 Sentinel UNTIMED.</P> <P>At the end of making each set of 3,  I was rewarded with 2s88c(cost of making 1).</P> <P>At turn in I was rewarded with 3s.</P> <P>total cost 18 candles (96c ea) = 17s28c</P> <P>Total payout = 8s76c</P> <P>Total LOSS = 8s52c</P> <P>Please fix payouts.</P> <P> </P>

[Deson]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dymus wrote:<div>Beghn, like the rest of the designers who do real work on a regular basis are chained to their desks toiling away on the expansion and its associated massive amount of content.</div><hr></blockquote>Juding by the time there, I take it you arent too far off from the same.</div>

[Spyrit]

<DIV>Anyone have a T7 Tradeskiller on test that can give us an idea of the rewards for the T7 writs?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have seen lots of feedback around T3/T4/T5 but not the high end writs.</DIV>

[ZeyGnome]

<P>I will point some of them to this thread when I log in next if they haven't posted yet.</P> <P>There are a number of them on Test.</P> <P> </P>

[Piltow]

<P>Dymus, what can I say. YOU ARE AWESOME. Thank you for fixing the payout. It now pays for all items made instead of just the last one.</P> <P>Minor cosmetic bug. When you are ready for turn in of work order, the work order foeman does not have the (book)icon floating above his head. He does take the completed work order and pays out correctly. The rush order foreman does have the floating book icon above his head.</P> <P> </P>

[ZeyGnome]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ZeyGnome wrote:<BR> <P>Okay, the rewards are pretty much all over the board, and they are definitely not correct:</P> <P><STRONG><U>Timed Tradeskill Writs</U></STRONG></P> <P>T6 Alchemist  - 1g 62s - 4000 -150 <BR>T5 Difficult  - 1g 8s - 5280 - 150 <BR>T5 Talented - 1g 8s - 3822 - 150 <BR>T5 Alchemist - 72s - 2951 - 150</P> <P><STRONG><U>Non-Timed Tradeskill Writ</U></STRONG></P> <P>T6 Alchemist - 81s - 3200 - 100 <BR>T5 Difficult - 54s - 4526 - 100<BR>T5 Talented - 54s - 3726 - 100<BR>T5 Alchemist - 36s - 2530 - 100</P> <P>As you can see from the rewards chart for my 50 Alchemist, they are just confused.  The hardest writ gans less status than the easier one. (Not to mention the non-timed easier one being better than the hardest timed one).</P> <P>The non-timed ones are just wrong.    There is nothing at all being risked on these, and they can take 3 weeks to complete it, yet the rewards (based on the difference for the lowest one which looks to be closest to correct) are way too much.   The rewards should be at most about 1/4 of the reward for the timed ones.  I don't understand why there was even an allowance for non-timed ones, because it rewards someone for being lazy. This is like rewarding someone for being able to put on slip-on shoes.</P> <P>When any of the right rewards finally do make it into the game, then I will judge it again, but from the way things are going, it looks like it would be more effective to do the non-timed ones, which defeated the whole purpose of the revamp since it was supposed to be based on the 'greater returns for greater risk' principal as stated originally when this new system was described.  </P> <P>If this is how its going to be then you might as well scrap it and just put back the old system, since the net result is exactly the same.</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by ZeyGnome on <SPAN class=date_text>08-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:41 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The numbers this morning are Exactly the same as they were before the last patch.  Nothing has changed at all.</P> <P>The number of items, rewards, etc. are the same.</P> <P>I'm not seeing any difference, or any reason why the easier timed or why the non-timed ones are in some cases (T5 Difficult Non-timed vs T6 ) are even better.</P> <P>I'm not seeing any fixes here.</P> <P> </P>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jolissa wrote:<BR> <DIV>Anyone have a T7 Tradeskiller on test that can give us an idea of the rewards for the T7 writs?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have seen lots of feedback around T3/T4/T5 but not the high end writs.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If there was a fix to the rewards last night, I will do a few on my 70 sage, both timed and untimed.

[Pullo]

<DIV>I did a few T5 writs last night, rewards are still in the same pattern as discussed:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  If a writ requires more than one of an object (i.e. Make 3 Fulginate Kite Shields), the reimbursement only occurs on the third one and only for the amount to make a single.  In other words, the more a writ stacks combines, the more you lose currently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  The untimed writs are 'bang for buck' better to proceed with than the timed writs.  With lag and various issues (simple luck, the race to your crafting station), the hardest available timed writ is pretty much impossible for anyone other than carpenter/woodworker/tailor in the Qeynos instances.  The 'mid difficulty' timed writ is doable, but you have to be willing to live with very little room for error/delay.  The reward for the highest end UNTIMED writ is better than the lowest TIMED writ (a mistake imo).  Meaning, you can just grab the highest difficulty untimed and basically keep pace with where you would be otherwise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts in general:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- I like the system.  Particularly for the crafting classes which 'grind' to advance, it's a nice distraction from the grind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- The payout on stacked items needs to be addressed, but its a Test environment for a reason! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- The reward for the most difficult available untimed writ should be less than the lowest difficulty timed writ (status and bonus coin).  There should be an incentive to risk the all or nothing aspect of the timer (while still retaining a reason to do the lower stress untimed writs).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- You might consider placing the 'Invoice Table' on the floor where the crafting stations are in Qeynos, not sure about Freeport, but the main effect of the crafting writs is a complete abandonment of staircases!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- You might consider adding 15-30 seconds to the timed writs.  I imagine on the larger pop servers some slack might help with the adoption.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sunrayn]

<P>Here are the T7 rewards...Of course, the untimed dont pay out for fuel cost.</P> <P>Difficult T7 rush--6g, 64s, 30cp--7200sp<BR>Talented T7 rush--4g, 92s---6215sp<BR>Regular T7 rush--3g, 64s, 50cp--4626sp<BR>Difficult T6 rush--2g, 43s---5324sp</P> <P><BR>Difficult T7 Untimed--3g, 32s, 15cp---5400sp<BR>Talented T7 untimed--2g, 46s---4661sp<BR>Regular T7 untimed--1g, 82s, 25cp---3469sp<BR>Difficult T6 untimed--1g, 21s, 50cp---4259sp</P> <P>*edit*  untimed writs that require 6 different combines (not multiple) are working.</P> <P>A difficult T7 sage writ is asking for Cure of Isolation....This should be Curse of Isolation.</P> <P>*edit again* ok, the untimed writs now pay out all fuel cost upon completing the last combine.  For 6 T5 shields, it payed out 5g, 52s, 96cp after completing the last one.  My WW can now eat ramen noodles and jam sandwiches, *with* jam.  =)<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Sunrayn on <SPAN class=date_text>08-25-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:14 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Sunrayn on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:51 AM</span>

[Dymus]

<DIV>Some of the fixes did not make it to test yesterday, they didn't make the cutoff time for the build.  Most everything should be working properly after today for the weekend though.</DIV>

[Piltow]

<DIV>I posted this in a separate thread but I am posting here to make sure it gets read.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I do untimed work orders with my lvl 22 Berserker lvl 22 Alchemist I receive +100 Coalition of Tradesfolke faction along with the +100 Ironforge faction. </DIV> <DIV>When I do them with my lvl 12 Wizard lvl 22 Provisioner I only receive +100 Ironforge.</DIV> <DIV>Is it my Wizard being only lvl 12 or Provisioner work orders that keep me from getting Coalition of tradesfolke or is my alchemist getting it in error?  Either way I think this needs to be fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited to add: Both characters are citizens of Qeynos.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Piltow on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:40 PM</span>

[Wikfizb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Piltow wrote:<BR> <DIV>I posted this in a separate thread but I am posting here to make sure it gets read.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I do untimed work orders with my lvl 22 Berserker lvl 22 Alchemist I receive +100 Coalition of Tradesfolke faction along with the +100 Ironforge faction.</DIV> <DIV>When I do them with my lvl 12 Wizard lvl 22 Provisioner I only receive +100 Ironforge.</DIV> <DIV>Is it my Wizard being only lvl 12 or Provisioner work orders that keep me from getting Coalition of tradesfolke or is my alchemist getting it in error?  Either way I think this needs to be fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited to add: Both characters are citizens of Qeynos.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Piltow on <SPAN class=date_text>08-25-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:40 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Coalition of Tradefolk is the FP equivalent of the ironforge exchange, if a qeynosian is gettign coaltion faction from writs, that certainly sounds like a bug to me.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Dymus]

Enjoy the dual faction rewards while you can.  They affect all scholar work orders it seems.  I'll have a fix in for it but it won't make it in for the weekend.  Nice catch by the way.<div></div>

[Ebjelen]

I too like the way the changes are shaping up. I've done some T3 feedback in game,  I just haven't had much time to do more here. I doubt I'll get to take advantage of the dual faction bug this weekend. It was nice to see a couple of changes in response to my comments. Knowing the list of what to make before timer start is now moot. When there is a choice of tiers, the tier for the quest is in the selection description. A lot of folks that don't play on test missed that little addition. i.e. The description is now "a tier 3 apprentice sage work order."  You don't really need the exact list if all you want to do is minimize how many tiers you have to carry. The question remaining now is: are there going to be harvest quests? Those also disappeared with the writs. It was understandable with harvesting becoming easier. I think we still need this as motivation to clean up the nodes a bit more. I don't really think there are enough provisioners that will be doing writs. Most guild look for provioners to make a lot of food anyway and current demand is not cleaning up those bushes. More incentive to whack the bushes? <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <div></div>

[Wikfizb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ebjelen wrote:<BR><BR>The question remaining now is: are there going to be harvest quests? Those also disappeared with the writs. It was understandable with harvesting becoming easier. I think we still need this as motivation to clean up the nodes a bit more. I don't really think there are enough provisioners that will be doing writs. Most guild look for provioners to make a lot of food anyway and current demand is not cleaning up those bushes. More incentive to whack the bushes? <SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:</SPAN><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Previously, writ and task payouts were based on the vendor value of the goods produced (1.2x for writs, and 1.6x for tasks).  This made provisioner writs undesirable if you had any other crafter or adventure to do writs with.  With the way writs work now, the payout is based on the writ itself, so a sage or prov doing the equivalent writ will make the same profit at the end of it.  Unless you have just 1 prov making food for an entire guild, a prov will end up making a lot of food/drink to level that they either need to broker or vendor.  On test right now I am finding the provisioner writs a great way to level and make a bit of coin and status doing it.  I don't know if it will have a big enough impact on the shrubs not being harvested (still seeing shrub infested landscapes on test in TS, so I doubt it), but at least for me, I have a LOT more incentive under this system to clean up the shrubs people leave behind and use them for writs.  I do agree, that I would like to see harvest tasks added back again as well as workshop tasks (higher coin payour, no status).  I think the best way to get people to harvest shrubs (that have no use for them) would be to add a chance to get a true rare from them (root makes sense to me).</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>