Relic pattern change

[Wrapye]

<div></div>From Test server notes on 8/3: - Relic patterns will now drop in fabled chests. Does this mean that the chests that drop from trash mobs with relic patterns will be metal instead of wood, or that relic will only appear in metal chests, if those happen to drop?  You can already get relic in fabled chests off of mobs on Live, like off of Tarinax. <div></div><p>Message Edited by sacremon on <span class=date_text>08-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:39 AM</span>

[FreaklyCreak]

<DIV>Small wooden- Adepts,  Advanced booksm and quest starters</DIV> <DIV>Large Wooden(kinda a metal outline on the cover)- Many diffrent items including stuff from small wooden plus a ton of weapons(think its mainly ment for treasured drops</DIV> <DIV>Ebon Metal/Rusty looking- Fabled chest.</DIV> <DIV>Sturdy looking steel chest- Legendary chest.</DIV>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sacremon wrote:<BR> Does this mean that <STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>the chests that drop from trash mobs with relic patterns will be metal instead of wood</FONT></STRONG>, or that relic will only appear in metal chests, if those happen to drop?  You can already get relic in fabled chests off of mobs on Live, like off of Tarinax. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The highlighted portion above is correct. It's a visual change only; no drop rates were changed.

[dparker7]

So, relic will have the same time to decay as a fabled drop?

[SpritRaja]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dparker713 wrote:<BR> So, relic will have the same time to decay as a fabled drop?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am guessing that is the main reason for the change. There have been a number of times when DKP bids has taken long enough that the relic chest has decayed. Specially when the member that bids is taking his turn to sit.

[Kessia189]

<blockquote><hr>SpritRaja wrote: <blockquote> <hr> dparker713 wrote: So, relic will have the same time to decay as a fabled drop? <hr> </blockquote>I am guessing that is the main reason for the change. There have been a number of times when DKP bids has taken long enough that the relic chest has decayed. Specially when the member that bids is taking his turn to sit.<hr></blockquote>Personally if someone in our raid takes their time to bid then we assume they are not very interested, if the chest gets to 30seconds (which it hasn't yet) we'd most likely just give it to the highest bidder at that time. A legendary chest would be good enough to give longer for bids, but this still doesn't fix the issue of this stuff dropping from trash and making a mockery of the effort vs reward ideals. To be honest, the biggest benefit i see from this change is that now even alts will be running around fully kitted out in Relic Armour rather than letting it rot.<div></div>

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Kessia189 wrote:<blockquote><hr>SpritRaja wrote:<blockquote><hr>dparker713 wrote: So, relic will have the same time to decay as a fabled drop?<hr></blockquote>I am guessing that is the main reason for the change. There have been a number of times when DKP bids has taken long enough that the relic chest has decayed. Specially when the member that bids is taking his turn to sit.<hr></blockquote>Personally if someone in our raid takes their time to bid then we assume they are not very interested, if the chest gets to 30seconds (which it hasn't yet) we'd most likely just give it to the highest bidder at that time. A legendary chest would be good enough to give longer for bids, but this still doesn't fix the issue of this stuff dropping from trash and making a mockery of the effort vs reward ideals. To be honest, the biggest benefit i see from this change is that now even alts will be running around fully kitted out in Relic Armour rather than letting it rot.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Ding ding ding. Developers, please address this. Yesterday I enjoyed (for about 5 minutes) an HoF run with a plate tank in full relic gear, minus the hat. It became quite clear when we couldn't get past the first named that he had no idea how to play his class and had tagged along in the daily trash relic runs to obtain this almost-full suit, yet he remained unable to tank a blue, slightly tough named. Ridiculous.<p>Message Edited by WAPCE on <span class=date_text>08-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:51 AM</span>

[Renpatsu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WAPCE wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>...</BLOCKQUOTE>Ding ding ding. Developers, please address this. Yesterday I enjoyed (for about 5 minutes) an HoF run with a plate tank in full relic gear, minus the hat. It became quite clear when we couldn't get past the first named that he had no idea how to play his class and had tagged along in the daily trash relic runs to obtain this almost-full suit, yet he remained unable to tank a blue, slightly tough named. Ridiculous. <P>Message Edited by WAPCE on <SPAN class=date_text>08-04-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:51 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As well as being level 70 doesn't mean someone knows how to play a class, so does wearing relic not equal being able to tank, even if it's a fighter subclass. I know many fighters which feel uncomfortable tanking. They usually solo and / or are second fighter in a group. It's a playstyle and it's a valid one.</P> <P>Furthermore, you can tag along on every raid as soon as the strategy is clear and the zone gets farming status and you're able to buy fabled gear, be it via broker or via looting rights.</P>

[Ishbu]

Wich is why SOE should discourage relic runs instead of supporting them.If anything the relic patterns should have been made body drops so they have like a 2min decay timer. POW no relic because your not organize and took too long or someone ninja looted it.While it wouldnt stop relic farming, at least it would be entertaining to see all the people complain about ninja looters and lost relic.

[Oakum]

<P>Elitism at its best. </P> <P>Trash runs killing EPIC mobs which can and do wipe the raid occasionally due to not having all the "correct" classes, equipment quality or whatever meet the justification for dropping fabled as put out by the developers. They said that the best gear drops from raids due to the difficulty of coordination and the increased risk of deaths. They never said you had to kill named to get it. </P> <P>Even if your tank was doing DPS on the trash runs he/she still had the increased risk of death and the coordination requirements to do get the fabled.</P> <P>I have done about 15 trash runs and got one relic at an average of 3 hours spent in the raid. Even if they got all their relic at the rate of 10 raids per item, thats still a whole lot of raiding with 5-6 LESS chances to get relic since no named are killed. Multiply the number of relic pieces times 10 times 3 to see how many hours were probably put into it. (r = t x 10 x 3). Five relic peices would mean 150 hours raiding. If you drop out some of the downtime then you can say he/she only spent 100 hours. Still a whole lot of raiding. </P> <P>Then again, maybe the op doesn't consider dpsing as raiding. Who knows. </P> <P> </P>

[Ishbu]

<blockquote><hr>Oakum wrote:<P>Elitism at its best. </P><P>Trash runs killing EPIC mobs which can and do wipe the raid occasionally due to not having all the "correct" classes, equipment quality or whatever meet the justification for dropping fabled as put out by the developers. They said that the best gear drops from raids due to the difficulty of coordination and the increased risk of deaths. They never said you had to kill named to get it. </P><P>Even if your tank was doing DPS on the trash runs he/she still had the increased risk of death and the coordination requirements to do get the fabled.</P><P>I have done about 15 trash runs and got one relic at an average of 3 hours spent in the raid. Even if they got all their relic at the rate of 10 raids per item, thats still a whole lot of raiding with 5-6 LESS chances to get relic since no named are killed. Multiply the number of relic pieces times 10 times 3 to see how many hours were probably put into it. (r = t x 10 x 3). Five relic peices would mean 150 hours raiding. If you drop out some of the downtime then you can say he/she only spent 100 hours. Still a whole lot of raiding. </P><P>Then again, maybe the op doesn't consider dpsing as raiding. Who knows. </P><P> </P><hr></blockquote>Oh please. Trash wipes your raid then you are not a raider and therefore should not get full suits of raid gear. Trash is one groupable all day long. Its a joke. It is TRASH. Do we really need to pull up the definition of trash here? Another name for trash is garbage and garbage is junk, so the only thing trash should drop is garbage. Vendor fodder at best. Its not so much me being elitest but you wanting everything on a silver platter. You want raid loot? Go kill raid bosses. Killing trash for your loot and defending it makes you pathetic. Your a garbage player by definition because all you do is kill trash and your geared from said trash. Grats on being garbage.

[DevilDi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR>Do we really need to pull up the definition of trash here? Another name for trash is garbage and garbage is junk, <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The common link is refuse.  Trash is dry refuse and garbage is wet.</P> <P>Sorry...I teach this for a living.</P>

[KBern]

<DIV>This change is totally not needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All this will do is make it easier for people to run in alts to loot the relic, and for raids to sell looting rights to the relic to people not even in the raid much easier now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You all should re-think this change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dasein]

<P>Why is the assumption that non-named mobs are 'trash' mobs? If they have a reasonable chance of dropping worthwhile loot, it would seem they're no longer trash, but simply non-named mobs.</P> <P>It's obvious, though, that there's a small group of raiders who don't like the idea that non-raiders get to share in some of the uber loot. Frankly, it's that attitude that makes raiding seem like a design mistake. Every time I read one of Ishboozer's posts about how only raiders should get fabled, it makes me want to remove the enitre concept of raiding from the game.</P>

[Ishbu]

<blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:<P>Why is the assumption that non-named mobs are 'trash' mobs? If they have a reasonable chance of dropping worthwhile loot, it would seem they're no longer trash, but simply non-named mobs.</P><P>It's obvious, though, that there's a small group of raiders who don't like the idea that non-raiders get to share in some of the uber loot. Frankly, it's that attitude that makes raiding seem like a design mistake. Every time I read one of Ishboozer's posts about how only raiders should get fabled, it makes me want to remove the enitre concept of raiding from the game.</P><hr></blockquote>Get a clue. If I cared about people having fabled loot I wouldnt sell it to them. I probably sell more fabled loot to non raiders than anyone else in game simply because 99% of what drops we sell now.Its not about that, its about how relic has ruined item progression. How relic has ruined raid progression. Sure neither of these were doing all that great in the first place but relic has made the problem exponentially worse.

[Dasein]

<P></P> <HR> Its not about that, its about how relic has ruined item progression. How relic has ruined raid progression. Sure neither of these were doing all that great in the first place but relic has made the problem exponentially worse. <HR> <P>From the perspective of a non-raiding guild that is just now able to take on the harder T7 content, there is a clear progression for raids: We started with Labs and MoA4, and that allowed us to gear up and learn to raid to the point of being able to clear Labs. We're now in the process of killing the dragons for DT access, which are proving to be challenging but certainly do-able. At this point we can also clear Lyceum and it's clear the next steps will be DT and HoS, then the FD raid. To us, raid progression is obvious Relic armor allows us to equip many more people in our guild, and allows more people to participate and feel they are getting something out of it.</P> <P>It seems that EQ2 isn't designed for the hardcore raiding mentality, and I am quite happy for that.</P>

[Kine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Why is the assumption that non-named mobs are 'trash' mobs? If they have a reasonable chance of dropping worthwhile loot, it would seem they're no longer trash, but simply non-named mobs.</P><BR> <P>It's obvious, though, that there's a small group of raiders who don't like the idea that non-raiders get to share in some of the uber loot. Frankly, it's that attitude that makes raiding seem like a design mistake. Every time I read one of Ishboozer's posts about how only raiders should get fabled, it makes me want to remove the enitre concept of raiding from the game.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Get a clue. If I cared about people having fabled loot I wouldnt sell it to them. I probably sell more fabled loot to non raiders than anyone else in game simply because 99% of what drops we sell now.<BR><BR>Its not about that, its about how relic has ruined item progression. How relic has ruined raid progression. Sure neither of these were doing all that great in the first place but relic has made the problem exponentially worse.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So then a person picking up relic from non-nameds in Labs ruins item and raid progression, but you selling "99%" of the nice fabled gear from top-mobs to non or casual raiders doesnt? </P> <P>So what if some casual , part-time raiders get some relic out of Labs? Most will still never see big bosses hardcore raiders do until quite a while down the road. I mean some of you guys kill me...it is ok when you sell fabled gear, but if a person obtains it themselves where it drops it ruins raid progression trivializes heroic encounters blah blah. </P> <P>Think about it...how does this really harm YOUR game experience? Why do you care if people end up with some relic armor? Is this ruining YOUR item or raid progression? Not every player cares or has the time/means to progress through all the raids. That doesn't mean that they have no right to some decent gear especially if they are able to hunt where it drops. Whats the difference to you if they pick it up themselves or buy it after you all have killed the bosses so many times that noone in your guild even needs the drops anymore and you sell it?</P> <P>As far as the clueless tank with nearly full relic...well when you meet someone like that just never hunt with that person again. Eventually he wont be getting any groups and the problem fixes itself.</P>

[Pouncer74]

<P>on the upside there will be no more, "WOOOT RELIC...oh wait....*grumble* Advanced Alchemist 68 @(&%(_@#$@"</P> <P> </P> <P>Oh and as a side...i have no problem with people farming relic off trash...just lock em out for 6 days for the first kill.  If the raiders get locked out for 6 days then the farmers should as well.</P><p>Message Edited by Pouncer74 on <span class=date_text>08-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:40 AM</span>

[Ishbu]

You can kill everything save mb chel'drak and the matron in nothing but relic. How is there raid progression? You can go from being unguilded doing relic runs multiple times a day to killing the hardest encounters without killing a single named mob.That is not progression, period.Furthermore, when we kill a named mob and sell the loot, we took the lockout. We cant do that again in 6hours. We cant do that again tomorow, we have to wait 6 full days. So one item enters the world and 24 people are locked out for a week. Not one item enters the world and 6 people are locked out for 6 hours.

[Kessia189]

<div><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:<div></div> <p></p> <hr> Its not about that, its about how relic has ruined item progression. How relic has ruined raid progression. Sure neither of these were doing all that great in the first place but relic has made the problem exponentially worse. <hr> <p>From the perspective of a non-raiding guild that is just now able to take on the harder T7 content, there is a clear progression for raids: We started with Labs and MoA4, and that allowed us to gear up and learn to raid to the point of being able to clear Labs. We're now in the process of killing the dragons for DT access, which are proving to be challenging but certainly do-able. At this point we can also clear Lyceum and it's clear the next steps will be DT and HoS, then the FD raid. To us, raid progression is obvious Relic armor allows us to equip many more people in our guild, and allows more people to participate and feel they are getting something out of it.</p> <p>It seems that EQ2 isn't designed for the hardcore raiding mentality, and I am quite happy for that.</p><hr></blockquote>Relic armour is fine... IF it ONLY had a chance to drop from named kills. I have nothing against the Relic armour itself, just the means of how it's obtained. Plainly and simply you should not be able to obtain raid level fabled armour from the trash in an instance, legendary armour with legendary stats would make a lot more sense but when armour just as good as that from boss mobs drops of the entrance trash... what is the point in killing the boss mobs?</div>

[Dasein]

<P></P> <HR> You can kill everything save mb chel'drak and the matron in nothing but relic. How is there raid progression? <HR> The progression is in the difficulty of the encounters and strategies you need to use. Maybe the hardcore raiding guilds do not see this, but for the rest of us, the vast majority of us, the progression is clear.

[Ishbu]

<blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:<P></P><HR>You can kill everything save mb chel'drak and the matron in nothing but relic. How is there raid progression?<HR>The progression is in the difficulty of the encounters and strategies you need to use. Maybe the hardcore raiding guilds do not see this, but for the rest of us, the vast majority of us, the progression is clear.<hr></blockquote>Its all because of poor organization then. Tarinax's strat is the same as the MO's wich is the same as vyemm's wich is the same as venekors wich is the same as vilucidae's and so on. The difference in killing one to the next is so minor that anyone should be able to figure it out.Chel'drak is the first encounter where I actually felt like we were doing something different in t7.

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kinen1 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Why is the assumption that non-named mobs are 'trash' mobs? If they have a reasonable chance of dropping worthwhile loot, it would seem they're no longer trash, but simply non-named mobs.</P><BR> <P>It's obvious, though, that there's a small group of raiders who don't like the idea that non-raiders get to share in some of the uber loot. Frankly, it's that attitude that makes raiding seem like a design mistake. Every time I read one of Ishboozer's posts about how only raiders should get fabled, it makes me want to remove the enitre concept of raiding from the game.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Get a clue. If I cared about people having fabled loot I wouldnt sell it to them. I probably sell more fabled loot to non raiders than anyone else in game simply because 99% of what drops we sell now.<BR><BR>Its not about that, its about how relic has ruined item progression. How relic has ruined raid progression. Sure neither of these were doing all that great in the first place but relic has made the problem exponentially worse.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So then a person picking up relic from non-nameds in Labs ruins item and raid progression, but you selling "99%" of the nice fabled gear from top-mobs to non or casual raiders doesnt? </P> <P>So what if some casual , part-time raiders get some relic out of Labs? Most will still never see big bosses hardcore raiders do until quite a while down the road. I mean some of you guys kill me...it is ok when you sell fabled gear, but if a person obtains it themselves where it drops it ruins raid progression trivializes heroic encounters blah blah. </P> <P>Think about it...how does this really harm YOUR game experience? Why do you care if people end up with some relic armor? Is this ruining YOUR item or raid progression? Not every player cares or has the time/means to progress through all the raids. That doesn't mean that they have no right to some decent gear especially if they are able to hunt where it drops. Whats the difference to you if they pick it up themselves or buy it after you all have killed the bosses so many times that noone in your guild even needs the drops anymore and you sell it?</P> <P>As far as the clueless tank with nearly full relic...well when you meet someone like that just never hunt with that person again. Eventually he wont be getting any groups and the problem fixes itself.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are SORELY mis-guided, you are labeling relic gear as an end level gear - its NOT. Even the 2 class fabled gear dropped off name is better than relic. All named mobs gear is better than relic - all items in HOS and TOS are better than relic. DT has better gear than relic...... You are acting as if RELIC completely destorys item progression when its ONLY ENTRY LVL Fabled gear for T7 not END level. If they made END level fabled items that easy to get well then I would see your point - but right now you have zero point - Even a COP (LEGENDARY) is better than a relic BP for tanks and you can farm that with 4 people.... SO please stop acting as if relic is this over-powering, very easy to get gear. Because even with drop rates now you MIGHT get 8 pieces a night if you kill no name or on average 3-6 pieces a day. With 24 people in the raid that might change every day depending on peoples schedule and the fact that plate, leather,chain and cloth are all random. It would take you a VERY VERY long time to get a full relic person. Is it possible sure is. If you put the time into coordinating the raids. Even if killing trash is easy so what coordinating with 23 other people and doing things right is still "team play" regardless of how EASY you claim it to be.</P> <P> </P> <P> Some guild, actually many guilds still have problems raiding the trash stuff - JUST because you and your guild find it a breeze doesn't mean its not DIFFICULT to many. Relic is meant to assist smaller guilds that were less capable and less geared in DOF to get some gear to assist in getting to killing the names in those zones then on to bigger and better stuff.</P> <P> </P> <P>In short stop acting as if relic is the end lvl gear because it's not, period and you can't justify it.</P>

[Wilin]

I don't have a problem with the trash mobs dropping relic. We usually average 1-2 relic pieces from clearing Labs top to bottom. However, given the quality of the loot, there should probably be a lockout timer of more than 6 hours that sets when the relic piece is looted. Pick an instance with a single named mob that drops a fabled item and see what the reuse timer is on it. The labs timer should be roughly the same if relic is found.<p>Message Edited by Wilin on <span class=date_text>08-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:27 AM</span>

[Ishbu]

Relic gear is very much end level gear. Some classes relic is the best gear avaiable. Some the class specific stuff is a little better, but not so much that it enables you to magically defeate anything you couldnt before.If your not good enough to kill everything in t7 with relic gear, maybe you need to ask yourself were you really deserving of that relic gear in the first place or were you just benefiting from a poorly designed system? I know the correct answer, do you?

[masakre]

yeah, you elitest need to get off your high horse and realize the game wasn't designed for hard core idiots. It was made for casual raiders and the ones that take casual too the limits, will get more and better rewards. Deal with it elitest.

[Ishbu]

<blockquote><hr>masakre wrote:Im an idiot<hr></blockquote>This thread is about something for raiders. Your not a raider. Go away.

[masakre]

haha elitest, you go away. I have every right to be here, but you don't seem to understand that. Just like I have every right to farm trash from an epic zone.

[Ishbu]

<blockquote><hr>masakre wrote:haha elitest, you go away. I have every right to be here, but you don't seem to understand that. Just like I have every right to farm trash from an epic zone.<hr></blockquote>Exactly, your a troll. You dont raid but you come in running your mouth about raid issues.

[masakre]

hilarious. you just dont get it. I assume you never will but obviosuely Sony agrees with me and my ability to play the game as it was intended. You choose to be an elitest and think everyone else should too. Keep on keeping on

[Ishbu]

<blockquote><hr>masakre wrote:troll troll troll<hr></blockquote>Your in for a rude awakening when you cant get any decent fabled gear without killing named in EoF. Then I am sure we will see a bunch of threads for you and your kind crying about how you dont raid but you deserve gear better than people who do because you dont want to put in any effort.

[masakre]

<DIV>dood, you want to be an elitest and get to high end content with other elitest? Go play eq1. I was in a hard core raiding guild and got to the top. I came to play eq2 becuase the game was intended for casual play. If you don't like the game you chose, look some more.</DIV>

[Ishbu]

<blockquote><hr>masakre wrote:<DIV>dood, you want to be an elitest and get to high end content with other elitest? Go play eq1. I was in a hard core raiding guild and got to the top. I came to play eq2 becuase the game was intended for casual play. If you don't like the game you chose, look some more.</DIV><hr></blockquote>They need an uninformed i dont have any real experience with this content but im going to continually voice my worthless opinion board for people like you.

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masakre wrote:<BR> <DIV>dood, you want to be an elitest and get to high end content with other elitest? Go play eq1. I was in a hard core raiding guild and got to the top. I came to play eq2 becuase the game was intended for casual play. If you don't like the game you chose, look some more.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The game was not intended soley for casual play. It was made for hardcore and Casual Alike.<BR>

[DevilDi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masakre wrote:<BR> hilarious. you just dont get it. I assume you never will but obviosuely Sony agrees with me and my ability to play the game as it was intended. You choose to be an elitest and think everyone else should too. Keep on keeping on<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>That's why I look at a solo'ers gear and wish I could have stuff that nice!</P> <P>Ish deals with the issues (no pun intended) within his playstyle.  He let's the other styles fight their own battles and respects the differences.  He no more wants other players to <EM>have</EM> to play his game then he wants to <EM>have</EM> to play yours.</P> <P> </P>

[masakre]

<DIV>Sorry folks, but Im going to go ahead and agree with the way Sony implemented their game. For those that don't like the way Sony implemented their game, all I'm saying is, maybe it isn't the game you should be playing, becuase this is the game whether you like it or not.</DIV>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masakre wrote:<BR> the ones that take casual too the limits, will get more and better rewards. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Casual to the limits = hardcore. I'm glad you agree with us.

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masakre wrote:<BR> <DIV>Sorry folks, but Im going to go ahead and agree with the way Sony implemented their game. For those that don't like the way Sony implemented their game, all I'm saying is, maybe it isn't the game you should be playing, becuase this is the game whether you like it or not.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Or we could disagree. Maybe you should go back to your troll cave.

[Ishbu]

<blockquote><hr>masakre wrote:<DIV>TRRRRRROOOOOOOLLLLLLL</DIV><hr></blockquote>

[masakre]

your all one to talk, your here too sheeble.

[Rahmn]

Wow this thread is itching for a lock.

[StarryEyedElf]

<DIV>Time for this thread to die.</DIV>