BARD FiX - Suggestions

[Reptilianb]

<DIV>Troubs:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cast all songs while moving</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AoE Mez that mezzes each tick, and makes you have to twist the song to cast anything else aswell. Continous drains power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snare that snares each tick, lasts 12secs so you can afford one to resist, and drains power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Less interuptable charm, longer duration, less re-use time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dirge:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AoE Fear, same as the aoe mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snare same as above</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cast songs while moving</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bring Back Twisting.</DIV>

[Krooner]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote:<BR> <DIV>Troubs:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cast all songs while moving</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AoE Mez that mezzes each tick, and makes you have to twist the song to cast anything else aswell. Continous drains power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snare that snares each tick, lasts 12secs so you can afford one to resist, and drains power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Less interuptable charm, longer duration, less re-use time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dirge:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AoE Fear, same as the aoe mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snare same as above</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cast songs while moving</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bring Back Twisting.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Twisting = Carpotunnel :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AoE fear would be nice.</DIV> <DIV>Since CoB was nerfed twice and you can really make it interupt on both hands anymore increase duration to 16 seconds.</DIV> <DIV>Make tombs line a group wide damage shield and or non concentraition desease ward 5 minute recast</DIV>

[Calthine]

My bard doesn't feel broken :/  About all I would really ask for is a longer duration charm; the last change to charm pretty much pushed it off my hotbar.

[Danter]

<DIV>Dirge:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Allow all spells to be cast while moving.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Turn Death Bearer into an offensive stance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Combine Tomb's Calm and Dissonant Boon into 1 buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Kall, 70 Dirge Permafrost</DIV>

[Jooneau]

Sorry to say but I believe that after the last changes they made to the Bards aka the "Control" changes and the positive changes they made to some of our spells, e.g., proc on our self buff, that they consider us to be fixed already. That those changes were indeed the fixes they intended for the Bard class.Frightening, isn't it, how out of touch they are with the Bard class.

[thorvang]

the casual bard isn't broken. it's the raiding bard that needs attention.

[BloodyDragon]

<DIV>These are changes, not fixes. A fix would mean that something was broken. The dirge's fear and snare are not broken. Although I would like to be able to cast all my songs on the run. I know they wouldn't allow this on the bow double shot though. They removed that feature to prevent people from kiting. I can't speak for the troubs though, but it sounds like you are recommending changes, not fixes for them too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The dirge's fear is VERY useless right now because almost every mob is now social. I removed it from my hotbar. An AE fear would be horrible since it would just multiply the number of friends your feared mobs would bring back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The snare component of Verlien's is almost useless. It almost always breaks on the first strike and always breaks by the second. I only use it for the 2k+ disease debuff it gives me. Sure it slows down a mob, but that one or two hits that it prevented will not make or break that encounter. If you think it does, then you are taking on more than you should.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would much rather have them fix Zanders and allow it to scale as we level. Almost all other Bloodline spells still work for other classes at 70. Zander's does not. When Percussion of Stone procs on a group member, it knocks us out of invis. Sony said they fixed this a while back, but it still happens. There are several other "real" issues that need to be fixed and we have them listed (sticky'd) in our forum. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: Oh yeah, and make Death Bearer line no concentration slot. Don't change it otherwise. We don't need a "offensive" or "defensive" stance just because other scouts have them.</DIV><p>Message Edited by BloodyDragon on <span class=date_text>08-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:52 PM</span>

[Ebjelen]

<P><STRONG>As always, I'm going to ask what this has to do with changes currently on test? I don't see the connection.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>This is not the suggestion board. Posting suggestions here only means the post will get moved or locked.</STRONG></P>

[Calthine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thorvang wrote:<BR>the casual bard isn't broken. it's the raiding bard that needs attention.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That very well may be true.  I should say that I'm a non-raiding (rather than casual) bard.

[Landiin]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ebjelen wrote:<div></div> <p><strong>As always, I'm going to ask what this has to do with changes currently on test? I don't see the connection.</strong></p> <p><strong>This is not the suggestion board. Posting suggestions here only means the post will get moved or locked.</strong></p><hr></blockquote>This is the best place to talk about changes. Aren't the bard rule set on test? Arn't we testing bards? SO It <b>WOULD</b> be the place to suggest changes. /boggle</div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div></div>At this point id be id be happy if they removed concentration costs on useless buffs like Tombs, and scaled our buffs/debuffs correctly. A good example of poor scaling:Level 30 Daro's master 1- 29%snare, 21% slowlevel 58 Daros adept 3- 29% snare, 22% slowPoor scaling FTW!  I wonder...which debuff should i use? One that costs less mana or one that slows the target by 1% more, and costs more mana to keep on.  Hmmmm tough one there.  I also used my level 14 DPS master 2 (16.4%) until level 44 where agian i could master 2 it to a whoping 24%.  All those upgrades inbetween = useless.Thats my main problem with bards.  We are held back by poor buff/debuff scaling.  How can we do our job when the spell designer's obviously arnt doing theres. Also id like to note that the way Stoneskin and other wards work on PvP servers is broken.  Normally if a red attacks a grey he wont get anyfame.  If a red attacks a dirge and stoneskin procs it throws the dirge into combat and the game thinks the dirge attacked the red first giving that red a chance to get fame/status and faction.  That needs to be fixed.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class=date_text>08-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:58 PM</span>

[FreaklyCreak]

<DIV>I don't see a need for any improvements to my dirge. I love him as is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>KUDOS for adding melodolic armor(spelling)!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But AoE fear would be at the least fun as heck.</DIV>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>FreaklyCreak wrote:<div>I don't see a need for any improvements to my dirge. I love him as is.</div> <div> </div> <div>KUDOS for adding melodolic armor(spelling)!!</div> <div> </div> <div>But AoE fear would be at the least fun as heck.</div><hr></blockquote>Your dirge isnt even in his prime yet.  Come back 20 levels later when your still using your level 30 spells and say that.</div>

[FreaklyCreak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FreaklyCreak wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't see a need for any improvements to my dirge. I love him as is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>KUDOS for adding melodolic armor(spelling)!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But AoE fear would be at the least fun as heck.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your dirge isnt even in his prime yet.  Come back 20 levels later when your still using your level 30 spells and say that.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Spells upgrade every 14 levels give or take a few levels very rarely.

[firza]

<P>IF the class needs fixing (dirge) it would be the scaling of some spells and Zanders is a disgrace..</P> <P>PoS is a bug they can't seem to fix, eventhough they did try. Fear is useless, but after they redone the CC abilities it will not change anymore.</P> <P>Casting spells on the move would be nice for our debuffs. Please don't change the ranged CA. Its a waste of effort since auto attack with a good bow does more dammage and consumes less arrows.</P> <P>This is not the correct page though to discuss this so maybe this needs moving to another section:smileywink:</P> <P> </P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Im quite fond of my fear spell.  I play on Nagafen(pvp) and it's very useful for fearing people off docks so they cant bellhop away from you.  It also is a nice bit of CC in pvp as well.  I think our wail of horror spells should be the Group fear.  Or something...the spell as is...i just find myself using less and less.  Maybe they could change it into a 5-15min ability, or something useful.  Remember in EQ1 at 45 bards got their AE scream spell(mini harm touch they called it), was usable once every 3 min and did medium to high dmg.  Nothing to big, but it helped.  It would certanlty be better than a 9% chance to knock someone down.<div></div>

[Lynadianya Zeran]

<BR> <P><BR>To the OP, while I can agree that casting songs on the move is a good idea, I am not as enthusiastic about your other suggestions.  I didn't play EQ1 for more than 3 weeks (because, quite frankly, I didn't like it).  I don't want to play EQ1 now.  Not that the devs will ever do it (there simply is no mechanic in the game for it), but I would like to make it known that I personally have enough to do in combat and don't need to be "song twisting" also.  Now having said that...</P> <P>A little more personal DPS (the addition of the personal proc for us on the Daelil's line is a step in the right direction).  I can bring out some pretty respectable numbers now, but I am mostly mastered, with legendary weapons.  This is the point I have always tried to make.  I could solo solo material in the game before I started picking up masters and legendary drops, but it took me forever and wasn't very fun.  For me to almost die to single up blues all the time (and I would always die to single up blue casters) meant slow progress on solo quests.  A bard should not have to be tricked out in M1s and legendary gear just to do a solo quest.</P> <P>Removal of the concentration slots for some of our less useful buffs, especially our personal buff.  When I hit 67, I have the masters of Daelil's ready for me.  that means a drop of 181 points of int (or something like that).  As it is, in groups, if I have had to drop it to put up attack speed buff because the tank insisted on it my personal dps drops through the floor.</P> <P>Make Reflection not useless.  I just think it could be a really cool song, but it seems useless right now.</P> <P>As Lord Viper Scorpian said, fix the scaling with our buffs.  </P> <P>As for our charm and mez - personally (I know I am going to get shot for this...I'm really sorry) I love it.  I never used it before the change.  My charm would need an open spot in concentration, so it never came out in group play and my mez, well quite frankly, I stopped using it in group play because there is simply not enough of an indicator to everyone that the mob is mezzed.  They see no difference between it and any other mob to be attacked.  Now, when we have an add that needs to be dealt with, I charm it, pull it out of the fight, wait for the charm to wear off, mezz it (away from everyone else) and then go back to fighting the other mobs, occasionally looking back and mezzing the add again until we're ready for it.</P> <P>What the devs need to understand is, we bring nothing to the table but our buffs and our pleasant banter (well at least as far as I go).  They should be the best buffs in the game.</P> <P>I suppose I wish I had an encounter based magic debuff, but that would probably be asking too much.</P> <P>With that said, I love my Troubadour.  I wish that I brought a little more to the table buff wise.  Give me solid buffs so I don't need to wish I could twist them.  </P>

[Chefren]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Danterus wrote:<div>Dirge:</div> <div> </div> <div>Allow all spells to be cast while moving.<font color="#ffff00">I always thought they were doing us a favour when they left us with as many as we have after the big kiting nerf in lu 13. It would be nice yes, but not really neccessary.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Turn Death Bearer into an offensive stance.<font color="#ffff00">Stances wont work quite that way, we'd need a defensive stance as well in order for it to make any sense. A stance is choosing a trade-off rather than a buff. See  my opinion on buffs below. </font></div> <div> </div> <div>Combine Tomb's Calm and Dissonant Boon into 1 buff.<font color="#ffff00">Agreed. Even better improve both to be viable alternatives. We need more <b>viable</b> buffs than conc. slots to be bards. The selection of group buffs we choose to use IS our "stance" as I see it. Unfortunately these two suck too much to be usable unless you're having stacking issues with other bards. Or if you do combine them add something cool like a group mit buff. The troub obviously needs the same kind of fixup of buffs.</font></div> <div> </div> <hr></blockquote>Also still waiting for complete melodic armour for all tiers >= T3 + imbuable chest/legs as well as instruments that go in the charm slot. </div><p>Message Edited by Chefren on <span class=date_text>08-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:00 AM</span>

[Ellrin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bring Back Twisting.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>How about NO NO NO NO and NO.

[Krooner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR>Im quite fond of my fear spell.  I play on Nagafen(pvp) and it's very useful for fearing people off docks so they cant bellhop away from you.  It also is a nice bit of CC in pvp as well.  <BR><BR>I think our wail of horror spells should be the Group fear.  Or something...the spell as is...i just find myself using less and less.  Maybe they could change it into a 5-15min ability, or something useful.  Remember in EQ1 at 45 bards got their AE scream spell(mini harm touch they called it), was usable once every 3 min and did medium to high dmg.  Nothing to big, but it helped.  It would certanlty be better than a 9% chance to knock someone down.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I hear what your saying but remembers.</P> <P>Its insta cast and requires no power.  Its great for HO's because it doesnt break mez and it will interrupt anything not mezzed.  It may not knock them back but it will interrupt.<BR></P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Lordviperscorpian wrote:Im quite fond of my fear spell.  I play on Nagafen(pvp) and it's very useful for fearing people off docks so they cant bellhop away from you.  It also is a nice bit of CC in pvp as well.  I think our wail of horror spells should be the Group fear.  Or something...the spell as is...i just find myself using less and less.  Maybe they could change it into a 5-15min ability, or something useful.  Remember in EQ1 at 45 bards got their AE scream spell(mini harm touch they called it), was usable once every 3 min and did medium to high dmg.  Nothing to big, but it helped.  It would certanlty be better than a 9% chance to knock someone down. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I hear what your saying but remembers.</p> <p>Its insta cast and requires no power.  Its great for HO's because it doesnt break mez and it will interrupt anything not mezzed.  It may not knock them back but it will interrupt.</p><hr></blockquote>If only HO's could be used in pvp...oh well.</div>

[Rijacki]

Just to have the self-buff not take a concentration slot would be a BIG improvement.  Every other class, that I know of, has sustained self-buffs which do not require concentration, and not just stances.  Many other classes even have group buffs which do not require concentration.  But.. the bard is often asked to put himself 2nd to the entire group and drop his self-buff in order to put up a buff which may or may not even affect him at all. <div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:Just to have the self-buff not take a concentration slot would be a BIG improvement.  Every other class, that I know of, has sustained self-buffs which do not require concentration, and not just stances.  Many other classes even have group buffs which do not require concentration.  But.. the bard is often asked to put himself 2nd to the entire group and drop his self-buff in order to put up a buff which may or may not even affect him at all. <div></div><hr></blockquote>If be more than happy to put group buffs before my own if those group buffs were acually worth the concentration they cost.  But yea that self buff thing erks me sometimes.  </div>

[Hazeroth]

<P>I think that since Troubs get a crowd control in a fight I think Dirges should get crowd control outside of a fight. For instance, Give Dirges to ability to makie an encounter Pacified so they don't agro, or lessen Agro ranges on an encounter.</P> <P>Or, my more favorite idea, make Dirge fear into Highsun. Highsun was a song in EQ1 that alowed a Bard to teleport a mob to it's spawn point, with EQ2 make it so it keeps with the "Fear" motif. When the song is cast on an encounter, they automatically become an invulnerable encounter with the "This encounter no longer will give exp or rewards" message and the mobs will run away, back to their spawn points and never return. Making the Dirge into the master of seperating two encounters on a bad pull. Or if your group pulls a mob that is tougher then they though, the Dirge can cast it and send the mob packing)</P> <P>Wtih this the Garsin's Fear will actually be useful.</P> <P> </P> <P>Silentchord, 70 Dirge</P> <P>Antonia Bayle, Journeymen of the Overlord</P><p>Message Edited by Hazeroth on <span class=date_text>08-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:58 PM</span>

[Landiin]

Fading Memories...<div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Hmm still no responce from developer's about the poor scaling and useless buff issues.  With the new double bow attack nerf coming i hope they acually decide to fix us instead of nerfing bards every LU since 13.<div></div>

[Lydiae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <BR>A good example of poor scaling:<BR><BR>Level 30 Daro's master 1- 29%snare, 21% slow<BR><BR>level 58 Daros adept 3- 29% snare, 22% slow <P>  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's scaling in 2 ways:</P> <OL> <LI>It will hit higher level MoB's.</LI> <LI>Slowing a level 58 MoB prevents a lot more damage than slowing a level 30.</LI></OL> <P>To maybe clarify, if you compare a high level heal to a lower one, the amount of health healed goes up, but the percentage of your near level target's health healed stays about the same, because they have a bigger health pool.  You just have to look at this from the opposite perspective.</P>

[Chefren]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lydiaele wrote:<div></div> <p>It's scaling in 2 ways:</p> <ol> <li>It will hit higher level MoB's.</li> <li>Slowing a level 58 MoB prevents a lot more damage than slowing a level 30.</li></ol> <p>To maybe clarify, if you compare a high level heal to a lower one, the amount of health healed goes up, but the percentage of your near level target's health healed stays about the same, because they have a bigger health pool.  You just have to look at this from the opposite perspective.</p><hr></blockquote>My T6 master II still lands quite reliably on t7 raid mobs.</div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lydiaele wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Lordviperscorpian wrote: <div></div>A good example of poor scaling:Level 30 Daro's master 1- 29%snare, 21% slowlevel 58 Daros adept 3- 29% snare, 22% slow <p>  </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>It's scaling in 2 ways:</p> <ol> <li>It will hit higher level MoB's.</li> <li>Slowing a level 58 MoB prevents a lot more damage than slowing a level 30.</li></ol> <p>To maybe clarify, if you compare a high level heal to a lower one, the amount of health healed goes up, but the percentage of your near level target's health healed stays about the same, because they have a bigger health pool.  You just have to look at this from the opposite perspective.</p><hr></blockquote>Completly incorrect.  The level 30 master( 30% harder to resist) lands just as much if nt more than the adept 3 at level 58( 20% harder to resist).  There is no "this will become harder to land if mob is over level 50" on this spell.  The level 30 master 1 will land just as much as the level 58 master 1.  The only difference is that the level 58 master will probably be (30%slow, 31%snare), which is....<u><b>BAD. SCALING.</b></u>How you even tried to compare this to a healing spell baffles me.</div><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class=date_text>08-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:53 AM</span>

[Reptilianb]

<DIV>well i'm about to hang up my boots.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where is the loving?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I read threw every bit of lu26 and nearly cried. I was expecting a long list of troubadour fixes and improvements.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Reptilianboy wrote:<div>well i'm about to hang up my boots.</div> <div> </div> <div>Where is the loving?</div> <div> </div> <div>I read threw every bit of lu26 and nearly cried. I was expecting a long list of troubadour fixes and improvements.</div> <div> </div> <div><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Everytime i read the update notes on test im dumbfounded to see there are no bard fixes.  How many fix bard posts have there been...?  We go out of our way to provide information and what exactly needs to be fixed, yet we seem to be geting the cold shoulder.  I think it would ease all the bards minds if a dev just came here and said: "hey were looking into it."Thats all we ask.  </div>

[Shadowinajar]

<P>Im sure the devs dont have time to script all new spells for bards,</P> <P>so lets stay realistic.</P> <P>Some slight scaling change of songs and the removement of the conc. slot for the selfbuff would be like tripple xmas.</P> <P>Still.. if they would even out the *effect value*(well let me name it like this*) of our songs it would boost</P> <P>the fun playing a bard big time.</P> <P>Nowadays every bard knows what set of songs is standard/best set and would only change if other bards show up in your group, </P> <P>No use for greymata there:smileysad:</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Shadowinajar wrote:<div></div> <p>Im sure the devs dont have time to script all new spells for bards,</p> <p>so lets stay realistic.</p> <p><u><b>Some slight scaling change of songs and the removement of the conc. slot for the selfbuff would be like tripple xmas.</b></u></p> <p>Still.. if they would even out the *effect value*(well let me name it like this*) of our songs it would boost</p> <p>the fun playing a bard big time.</p> <p>Nowadays every bard knows what set of songs is standard/best set and would only change if other bards show up in your group, </p> <p>No use for greymata there:smileysad:</p><hr></blockquote>Thats pretty much all were hoping for at this time.  Any other changes are just a bonus at this point.  I love my dirge, esspecially in pvp.  At level 30 my dirge was in his prime.  No scaling issues to worry about, buffs like the combat buff, and tombs were acually useful.  But as i grew closer to 70 i started to realize that some buffs and debuffs just werent scaling right.    </div>

[greenmantle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote:<BR> <DIV>Troubs:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cast all songs while moving</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AoE Mez that mezzes each tick, and makes you have to twist the song to cast anything else aswell. Continous drains power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snare that snares each tick, lasts 12secs so you can afford one to resist, and drains power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Less interuptable charm, longer duration, less re-use time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dirge:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AoE Fear, same as the aoe mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snare same as above</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cast songs while moving</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U><STRONG><EM>Bring Back Twisting.</EM></STRONG></U></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You would please a few skilled die hard eqers but i doubt most eq2 bards would stand for it. Twisting really showed what a bard could do , it also made bards the most work of any class.

[TalanRM]

I know allot of EQ1 bards enjoyed twisting, but I hated it. It didnt take any skill, 4 songs were (the odd interrupt/ miscast aside) easy to maintain. All repeatedly hitting 4 casting keys did was to (i) create carpal tunnel after a few hours (ii) prevented the bard from talking whilst maintaining the spells during combat. What I do miss is the sheer variety of songs that a bard could play to bring something useful to every situation. A wider variety of buffs, debuffs and miscellaneous spells to make us actually have to think about what to play would be great.

[Lordviperscorpian]

I wouldnt mind twisting to be brought back....but they'd have to give us instruments.  I think it's sad they acually created a bard class and didnt give us any instruments. Whoever made the bard classes did not do a very good job imo. No instruments.Terrible scaling.Useless buffs.Not to mention they split us in half which i think was the biggest mistake of all.  <div></div>

[Jaimster]

<P>Based on what I've heard/read about twisting it doesn't interest me in the least. While I don't play my troub as an afk buffbot, I also don't want to end up with the opposite end of the spectrum...</P> <P>These are changes that if they make any, would be ones that would definitely make me happy:</P> <P>I love my troubador. I even love the charm changes and have learned to live with the mezz changes. What would be nice is if they both had shorter recast times that BEGAN when the song was cast, so that if the mezz/charm break we have a better chance of recasting within the same fight, even if they won't increase the duration of them (which since they've changed it a few times, is unlikely to be in the works)...</P> <P>Not having Daelis' as a conc slot would be ideal. If they make no other changes, this one would be superb.  I know, I know... if they take away the conc slot they might reduce the stats on it, but if it's reduced stats with no conc slot or same stats with conc slot (which generally means not using it at all), I'll deal with reduced stats (depending on what "reduced" means I suppose I should add)....</P> <P>More Jester's type spells that you get throughout the growth of the troubador... there are so many fantastic functions as a troub that make it fun, but you don't get them until the very higher levels... mezz, jester's, PotM... these are the things that make the troub fun... why do you have to wait 50-65 levels to get them?  Until then, troubs really are pretty dull unless you're duoing and doing the tanking ;p</P> <P>Alin's line... can we get it to be effective on all classes who are NOT in defensive stance please?  That way, if you're grouped with a Brigand/Swash who is tanking, they won't be included on the hate reduction (with defensive stance up), and if you're grouped with a bunch of tanks, the ones with offensive stance on can be included??  This would be fantastic (though I realize not everyone agrees with this one).</P> <P>At any rate, if they make NO changes, I will continue to love my troubador.  If they make some/any of the above changes, I will just love her even more <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[trysta]

I'd be all for twisting -IF- they gave us a LOT more useful buffs to choose from. The amount of songs an EQ1 bard had makes the EQ2 bard look like a second grader just picking up his/her first instrument.<div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>trystaad wrote:I'd be all for twisting -IF- they gave us a LOT more useful buffs to choose from. The amount of songs an EQ1 bard had makes the EQ2 bard look like a second grader just picking up his/her first instrument.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Exactly.  In EQ1 we had all sorts of stuff to help our groups.  In eq2 we have a pitiful selection to choose from.  Most of the other classes can add what we have or make our buffs useless becuase they cap out stats.  Bards are long over due for a change.  A change that acually gives us something to add to our group.  </div>

[smtj]

<DIV>Please help the PvP bard, we need it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lots of good ideas here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fix are broken or unused chants, make them useful.</DIV> <DIV>Casting all spells on the run.</DIV> <DIV>A little bump in dps.</DIV> <DIV>No conc for our self buff.</DIV><p>Message Edited by smtjoy on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:12 AM</span>

[Lynadianya Zeran]

<P>I was in HoF last night fooling around.  My meat shield is a 70 SK with an addiction to DPS and loves for me to put up haste.  I also had caster's along, which meant that I really needed to keep Aria up.  Flower song is a must.  My SK friend also is not stam capped, so I had str/stam up.  And, of course, how could I possibly be the mana battery that I am expected to be without Bria's up.  That means, my personal DPS was in the toilet.  I had to drop my personal buff for everyone else in the group.  At Master 1 (which is what my self buff is), that's 217 points of intellegence.  My spells were significantly sub par and my power pool took a noticeable hit from the 80 some odd point drop in agility.  I had a few 400ish dps parses in that instance, but most of the time I was embarrasingly in the high 200s.  At level 70, that is humiliating.</P> <P>Please, please give us our self buff without a concentration slot.  I honestly don't care if anything else get's changed if that one thing is given to us.  I am willing to give up my personal dps for the group, but I really shouldn't have to since our personal dps is so low to begin with.</P> <P> </P> <P>Of course, when I was explaining to my tank that I was dropping haste for my personal buff he said, why don't you drop the in combat run speed one instead.  At least our AAs don't require a conc slot.  (I of course told him that I could, but it wouldn't do us any good to drop it).</P> <P> </P> <P>Edited because I can't type</P><p>Message Edited by Lynadianya Zeran on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:34 PM</span>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lynadianya Zeran wrote:<BR> <P> I had to drop my personal buff for everyone else in the group.  At Master 1 (which is what my self buff is), that's 217 points of intellegence.  My spells were significantly sub par and my power pool took a noticeable hit from the 80 some odd point drop in agility.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I hate making that choice.... it depends on the make up of the group but unless there were others to benefit from Raxxyl's, chances are I would've dropped the strength/Stamina buff to give myself Daelis' if none of the casters wanted to/were able to buff my INT <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That spell does a whole lot more for me than Raxxyl's could do for anyone else...</P> <P>Just as a side note, your power pool dropped as far as it did because INT adds to your power pool also.<BR></P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Lets hope there's something for us in the test patch on monday <span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div>

[Lynadianya Zeran]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR>Lets hope there's something for us in the test patch on monday <SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We'll we're getting our class hats.  Not sure if that's good or bad though.  I seriously don't want a Jester's Cap as a class hat.  I mean, I'm enough of a joke as it is.  No sense in bringing attention to it.  My little yellow [Removed for Content] hat is the only hood/helm I have ever shown in game.  I really like it (although, I wish it was not yellow since I am still in mostly xegonite melodic until I finish finding pieces to replace it with).  I have a little yellow dress that I gather and craft in that matches the hat perfectly  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Reptilianb]

hmmmm how long is this going to take

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>In terms of what they offer to a raid, bards are some of the best classes there are.  The problem is the lack of skill involved.  Our most important ability is our buffs, but all you do there is put them up then focus on our lacklustre dps.  There needs to be some skill in buffing, because bards are the easiest classes to play in EQ2.  No-one cares if we do 400 or 800 dps as long as our buffs stay up.</DIV>

[Lynadianya Zeran]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <DIV>In terms of what they offer to a raid, bards are some of the best classes there are.  The problem is the lack of skill involved.  Our most important ability is our buffs, but all you do there is put them up then focus on our lacklustre dps.  There needs to be some skill in buffing, because bards are the easiest classes to play in EQ2.  No-one cares if we do 400 or 800 dps as long as our buffs stay up.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Scaffloc, I find myself very busy in raids.  I spend 80% of my time watching my chat window for warnings on long re-cast timer debuffs (dispatch is the major one here) and capping those about to do a long re-cast timer ca/spell.  I have 3 raid members that I keep capped throughout an encounter.  That, coupled with keeping the debuffs on the mob up and casting PoM after a dispatch, jousting in and out of AoE range (because I am still very undergeared for T7, but slowly working on it) and DPSing means I'm one very busy gnome.  The guild that I raid with is light on DPS and heavy on healing.  So, it's really important that we get as many dispatches off as possible and that our assasins can make the most use of the dispatch, not only for DPS but also for hate feed. </P> <P>When I group, I am healer protection.  I charm/mez adds that go for the healers (which means I'm constantly watching health bars), dps, debuff and Jester's, which means, again, I'm very busy.  If I'm not also clearing 400dps (again, hopelessly undergeared - finally got Absolution, my first fabled weapon - and I have one peice of relic {bracers} the rest is xegonite melodic) then I feel I'm letting the group down. </P> <P>I'm not saying that most bards couldn't get away with being an afk buff bot and no one would be wiser...I'm just saying that, if I'm trying to play my class to it's highest potential, then I have no time in a raid or a group to be doing song twisting also.  I think, too many times, those who play bards don't explain their purpose to group members and teach everyone else what they can do.  So, the average Joe doesn't expect anything more of us.</P> <P>But, yes, I do have to admit that most of the time people don't care if we do anything but stand there.  I was once invited to a group in SoS and I explained that I was tired and not 100% on my game that night and the response to me was, that's ok, I just want you for your run buff (they had intended to train to the bottem of SoS and wanted a bard's run-buff to make it easier).</P> <P>I do somewhat disagree with your statement that the bard is the easiest clas to play in EQ2.  Bard is an easy class to play, but it's a hard class to play well.</P>

[vinterskugge]

<DIV>As long as you have the right buffs up it's easy.  Jesters is only one spell, we need more like that.  Apart from Jesters and Bladedance, my only function is dps.  I'm pretty good at that considering my class, but if I wanted to focus on dps I'd play a real dps class.</DIV>

[thorvang]

a good tank needs to learn how to maintain aggro.a good healer needs to learn how to household with his mana, using the right cures and what heals at what time.a good DD needs to learn how to maximize his damage without getting aggro or consuming the healers mana by standing in the wrong places.a good bard... well, keeps his master 1 buffs up. jesters is nice but i've never seen a raid where it's crucial to land jester on some specific player exactly on the right time. and more than that, i have never ever seen a raid where the troub's dps is what makes it a win or fail. surely the dps adds and if you need every bit of dps it's nice if the troub manages to do 700 dps rather than 300, but compared to what true dps classes inflict in damage it's just not that important.and like scafloc said, if i wanted my dps to be what i'm there for, i had rolled a true dps class.

[Lynadianya Zeran]

<P></P> <HR> thorvang wrote:<BR>a good tank needs to learn how to maintain aggro.<BR>a good healer needs to learn how to household with his mana, using the right cures and what heals at what time.<BR>a good DD needs to learn how to maximize his damage without getting aggro or consuming the healers mana by standing in the wrong places.<BR><BR>a good bard... well, keeps his master 1 buffs up. jesters is nice but i've never seen a raid where it's crucial to land jester on some specific player exactly on the right time. and more than that, i have never ever seen a raid where the troub's dps is what makes it a win or fail. surely the dps adds and if you need every bit of dps it's nice if the troub manages to do 700 dps rather than 300, but compared to what true dps classes inflict in damage it's just not that important.<BR><BR>and like scafloc said, if i wanted my dps to be what i'm there for, i had rolled a true dps class.<BR> <HR> <P>Well, apparently who I raid with expects more of me.  I am very thankful for that.  If I looked at my class as only there for my Master1 buffs, then I would be playing something else. </P> <P>Of course, I didn't say my DPS is what makes a win or fail, but every little bit helps when your raid is light on DPS to begin with.  Try using Jester's more and see how much your brigands and assasins love you for it.  I never said it was crucial, but it sure makes things smoother (especially when you hit the MT right before rescue on a named - and then the raid wipes.  So much less downtime waiting for rescue to come back up).</P> <P>I suppose I just refuse to stand there.  If I am going to be in the raid or group, I am going to be doing everything I possibly can to make the raid or group go smoother and faster.  If that means I am casting Jester's every 30 seconds between 4 people, and adding my pathetic DPS in, and debuffing the mob, then that's what I am going to do, and what is expected of me.</P>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lynadianya Zeran wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P>Well, apparently who I raid with expects more of me.  I am very thankful for that.  If I looked at my class as only there for my Master1 buffs, then I would be playing something else. </P> <P>Of course, I didn't say my DPS is what makes a win or fail, but every little bit helps when your raid is light on DPS to begin with.  Try using Jester's more and see how much your brigands and assasins love you for it.  I never said it was crucial, but it sure makes things smoother (especially when you hit the MT right before rescue on a named - and then the raid wipes.  So much less downtime waiting for rescue to come back up).</P> <P>I suppose I just refuse to stand there.  If I am going to be in the raid or group, I am going to be doing everything I possibly can to make the raid or group go smoother and faster.  If that means I am casting Jester's every 30 seconds between 4 people, and adding my pathetic DPS in, and debuffing the mob, then that's what I am going to do, and what is expected of me.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am with you... I'm usually the person with the lowest amount of power in my group because I'm constantly casting jester's, debuffs, spells. While I understand that there are times people could only want me for my buffs, that's not the only reason.  </P> <P>But I don't think anyone is necessarily disagreeing that we're useful and should do the most with what we have, or saying that a badly played bard does all the stuff you've mentioned or I've mentioned in the past, just that there is not a HUGE difference between a really great bard and a so/so bard because we don't have enough spells like Jester's. </P> <P>I certainly don't want to twist songs, but a few different variations of Jester's type spells that we can use to enhance the group/raid would be really fantastic...<BR></P>

[vinterskugge]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Lynadianya Zeran wrote:</P> <P>I suppose I just refuse to stand there.  If I am going to be in the raid or group, I am going to be doing everything I possibly can to make the raid or group go smoother and faster.  If that means I am casting Jester's every 30 seconds between 4 people, and adding my pathetic DPS in, and debuffing the mob, then that's what I am going to do, and what is expected of me.</P> <HR> <BR> <P> </P> <P>That's not really the point.  Yes, we can do stuff on raids like that, but I'd rather it was what we did during the fight that made the difference, not what we do before it.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ironman2000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calthine wrote:<BR> My bard doesn't feel broken :/  About all I would really ask for is a <STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0000>longer duration charm</FONT></U></STRONG>; the last change to charm pretty much pushed it off my hotbar.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><STRONG>Ditto, i'm very comfortable at level 60 with my bard taking on white and yellow solo stuff, even with they are grouped, I charm one, turn it on another, mezz the third and help the first attack the second one till its dead, while keeping the mezzed one mezzed.  I do wish the charm lasted longer or had a smaller recast time, like 10 seconds or something like that, so after it does break i could recharm right away, but i really think it should go back to closer to duration it had before.</STRONG><p>Message Edited by ironman2000 on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:32 AM</span>

[terzaghi]

<div></div><p>   More effective buffs, better scaling, etc. would sure make us feel better about what we bring to the group, but in the end we are still the same.  I too try my hardest every raid.  I cap, pom, dps, etc. etc., but you know what?  My guild is fine without me.  In fact, there are only a few cases where the raid is done if that person is not present, so it's not entirely a bard issue.  My question is, "What do we want?"</p><p>   Do we want recognition of some sort?  If not in the form of dps, then what?  I think that we all want to be satisfied as being a buffing class.  That's why we signed up.  The effects of our buffs are not THAT noticeable (the huge exception is run speed), unless you are looking for them.  EQ2 is about small increments anyway, nobody has buffs that are that noticeable.  I don't even buy Dispatch.  If you think you notice a difference when Dispatch is up, I bet it is really because everyone is button mashing like mad for those 13 seconds.  My point is we will never get buffs that will be so uber that people can’t live without us.  They could be better, that's for sure, but they won't be huge.<span>  </span>However, some buffs have the potential for being the kind of buffs that would make the Troubador rock (and roll).</p><p>   Jester's Cap.<span>  </span>It could be a really fun buff.  My favorite character to play was a Kinetic Defender in a different game.  Jester's is similar in one aspect to Speed Boost in that game.  Now that's a great buff!  It increased movement speed, power regeneration, and skill recycling times, and it did so quite noticeably.<span>  </span>It only lasted 2 minutes (no lockout) in duration, but you could buff your entire team.<span>  </span>That buff would probably be overpowered compared to other EQ2 buffs, but I don’t think it would be game breaking.<span>  </span>Your teammates would most definitely love you for it, but I don’t see it trivializing anything.<span></span>    I am not advocating cloning any powers, but changing some of our existing buffs (or adding new ones), like Jester’s, so that they are really really noticeable for a group, like Speed Boost, would sure bring back the joy in buffing.</p><div></div>

[Qwestionator]

im gonna shanghai this thread just because i dont want to start a new one - but like we all know bards just sit around and look sexy in raids so someone needs to post pics of the new hats from the test servers, i need to start planning armor changes and all that good stuff.<div></div>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> terzaghi wrote:<BR> <P> Do we want recognition of some sort?  If not in the form of dps, then what?  I think that we all want to be satisfied as being a buffing class.  That's why we signed up.  The effects of our buffs are not THAT noticeable (the huge exception is run speed), unless you are looking for them.  EQ2 is about small increments anyway, nobody has buffs that are that noticeable.  I don't even buy Dispatch.  If you think you notice a difference when Dispatch is up, I bet it is really because everyone is button mashing like mad for those 13 seconds.  My point is we will never get buffs that will be so uber that people can’t live without us.  They could be better, that's for sure, but they won't be huge.<SPAN>  </SPAN>However, some buffs have the potential for being the kind of buffs that would make the Troubador rock (and roll).</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>In general our buffs are effective enough - Alins and Brias especially.   But if you think Dispatch doesn't do anything then you're just stupid.

[terzaghi]

<div></div><div></div>Not that I don't think dispatch does nothing, I'm saying it's only part of a bigger picture and we all tend to mash harder when it's running.  We can still kill raid mobs without it, is more my point.  We can kill raid mobs without 1 of many many buffs/debuffs offered by any class is even more my point. As far as effectiveness... yes our buffs are effective, but a lot of people on these boards have suggested that they be more effective.  In my opinion it is because many of the effects are not that noticeable by themself.  Bria's by itself would not work as well without a little bit of FT gear etc.  I think we should get some buffs that would stand alone, and I think that it is possible to have these without being game breaking.  What if we could have a version of Bria's that gave a lot of regen, say 200 per tick, to the group for a duration of only a minute or three? <div></div><p>Message Edited by terzaghi on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:26 AM</span>

[Sanju]

<div><blockquote><hr>terzaghi wrote:Not that I don't think dispatch does nothing, I'm saying it's only part of a bigger picture and we all tend to mash harder when it's running.  We can still kill raid mobs without it, is more my point.  We can kill raid mobs without 1 of many many buffs/debuffs offered by any class is even more my point. <div></div><hr></blockquote>"Mashing harder" has nothing to do with all damage increasing by 50% (yes, I pulled that number out of my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]) when dispatch hits.[Cast Kian's immediately on pull. Watch it do 250 damage on the first tick (before Dispatch). Watch Dispatch land. Watch Kian's do 340 damage while the mob is Dispatched. To insinuate that Dispatch is all in our heads is grossly incorrect.]</div>

[terzaghi]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I'll concede the point on Dispatch, but I still maintain that it is only one tool out of many others across all classes.  My point being that there are buffs/debuffs out there that when you fire them off they make people smile, and these are neither essential or game-breaking. <div></div><p>Message Edited by terzaghi on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 AM</span>

[Oakum]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> terzaghi wrote:<BR> I'll concede the point on Dispatch, but I still maintain that it is only one tool out of many others across all classes.  My point being that there are buffs/debuffs out there that when you fire them off people they make people smile, and these are not essential or game-breaking.<BR> <P>Message Edited by terzaghi on <SPAN class=date_text>08-23-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:47 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>True, of course in the priest classes clerics, templer, and fury's have them. Wardens don't though. Wish wardens were like dirges. People have told me "you  have to have a dirge in order to to labs".  No one says that about wardens.  But without any major buffs or debuffs all we do is heal and are easily replaced by other  healers and life goes on. Keep up the good fight for bards, though.  Hopefully someday you will be wanted in raids and groups like dirges are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakum wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Keep up the good fight for bards, though.  Hopefully someday you will be wanted in raids and groups like dirges are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dirges are bards.  And anyone who doesn't want a troubador on his raid isn't a very good raid leader.   The class is useful and does what it's meant to, it's just boring and takes no skill to achieve that.

[Oakum]

I know that but when people usualy talk about "bards" they mean troubs usually. And yes, they can be helpful and not turned down but they are not a "have to have" class either. They can be replaced by a dps and not missed much.  At least not that I have heard. Dirges are said to be necessary though. At least for people just starting raids. Not sure about the fully fabled raids. They may not be as necessary then.  

[Krooner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sanju wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> terzaghi wrote:<BR>Not that I don't think dispatch does nothing, I'm saying it's only part of a bigger picture and we all tend to mash harder when it's running.  We can still kill raid mobs without it, is more my point.  We can kill raid mobs without 1 of many many buffs/debuffs offered by any class is even more my point. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>"Mashing harder" has nothing to do with all damage increasing by 50% (yes, I pulled that number out of my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]) when dispatch hits.<BR><BR>[Cast Kian's immediately on pull. Watch it do 250 damage on the first tick (before Dispatch). Watch Dispatch land. Watch Kian's do 340 damage while the mob is Dispatched. To insinuate that Dispatch is all in our heads is grossly incorrect.]<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thats a pretty good pull in my expirience.</P> <P>With Dispatch up and some coordination of Dirge debuffs and other debuffs you can easily hit for 50% over cap.  We had one of our Wizzies hit 29500 on Icenova last night.  <BR></P>

[Krooner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakum wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Keep up the good fight for bards, though.  Hopefully someday you will be wanted in raids and groups like dirges are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dirges are bards.  And anyone who doesn't want a troubador on his raid isn't a very good raid leader.   The class is useful and does what it's meant to, it's just boring and takes no skill to achieve that.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah what Scafloc said.  A Troub in your casters group with a monk rocks.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Sanju]

<div><blockquote><hr>Oakum wrote:<div></div> Dirges are said to be necessary though. At least for people just starting raids. Not sure about the fully fabled raids. They may not be as necessary then.  <hr></blockquote>Neither Troubs nor Dirges are necessary for raiding successfully. Dirges help people who have just started raiding more than Troubs, though. You're right about that, and it's easy to understand why.1. Dirges have a hate-generating buff to put on the MT. Hate generation is very important, especially for someone beginning to raid. It can help compensate for the MT not having all Master I spells (taunts, damage abilities -- anything that generates agro), for example.2. Dirges have a Stoneskin buff to help absorb some damage. This can help compensate for novice healers, or healers who may not have all Master I spells yet (or a tank not fully Fabled, or without Master stances and buffs).Troubadors are more necessary for a more experienced raid, simply because a top raid guild is a well oiled machine, and the dps will be doing a LOT more damage than any beginning raid guild. De-agro will therefore be paramount in the dps group(s). The MT group will have all of the hate generation and Master spells available, but even then, with fully Mastered and Fabled dps, they will pull agro if they go all out without a Troub (or they'll have to scale down their dps in order to not pull agro without a Troub).Neither Bard is absolutely necessary, though ... and that's ok, no one class should ever be required in order to raid something.</div>

[thorvang]

troub buffs are ok, dps is low as expected, but the troub is boring to play. there's just no activity involved with buffing. so i suggest something that's inspired by vanguard.#1 - lower the effectiveness of all buffs#2 - let all buffs stack with themselves. playing aria 3 times grants 3 times the mana regen#3 - let bards build "buffstacks". clicking together some buffs that in sum consume 5 conc and it's just one click to use themwhat's the use of that? the bard is able to switch songs on the fly. the fight starts, everyone is full with mana and putting out some damage spells. during that phase i use a highly specialized damage buff with some deaggro (i.e. 3 times dmg proc + 2 time deaggro)then a AE is incoming, i switch to 5x RoR to get a like 40% chance to reflect the AE. sadly the AE hits most of the group so i instantly switch to uberhealthregen what grants 560 hp per tick. in the course of the fight the healers are running oom so i make use of my 5x brias to push their mana up.you could still just sit around with your typical 5 buffs up, but you have the chance to actively react with highly specialized benefical spells to everything that may happen during a fight.

[Mulilla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thorvang wrote:<BR><BR>#3 - let bards build "buffstacks". clicking together some buffs that in sum consume 5 conc and it's just one click to use them<BR><BR>what's the use of that? the bard is able to switch songs on the fly. the fight starts, everyone is full with mana and putting out some damage spells. during that phase i use a highly specialized damage buff with some deaggro (i.e. 3 times dmg proc + 2 time deaggro)<BR>then a AE is incoming, i switch to 5x RoR to get a like 40% chance to reflect the AE. sadly the AE hits most of the group so i instantly switch to uberhealthregen what grants 560 hp per tick. in the course of the fight the healers are running oom so i make use of my 5x brias to push their mana up.<BR><BR>you could still just sit around with your typical 5 buffs up, but you have the chance to actively react with highly specialized benefical spells to everything that may happen during a fight.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>OMG i love that idea.... its a shame it would never be implemented.  I can see some balancing issues and is a bit overpowered

[ironman2000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thorvang wrote:<BR>troub buffs are ok, dps is low as expected, but the troub is boring to play. there's just no activity involved with buffing. so i suggest something that's inspired by vanguard.<BR><BR>#1 - lower the effectiveness of all buffs<BR>#2 - let all buffs stack with themselves. playing aria 3 times grants 3 times the mana regen<BR>#3 - let bards build "buffstacks". clicking together some buffs that in sum consume 5 conc and it's just one click to use them<BR><BR>what's the use of that? the bard is able to switch songs on the fly. the fight starts, everyone is full with mana and putting out some damage spells. during that phase i use a highly specialized damage buff with some deaggro (i.e. 3 times dmg proc + 2 time deaggro)<BR>then a AE is incoming, i switch to 5x RoR to get a like 40% chance to reflect the AE. sadly the AE hits most of the group so i instantly switch to uberhealthregen what grants 560 hp per tick. in the course of the fight the healers are running oom so i make use of my 5x brias to push their mana up.<BR><BR>you could still just sit around with your typical 5 buffs up, but you have the chance to actively react with highly specialized benefical spells to everything that may happen during a fight.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think its a balance issue, I can't see them implementing that because then we would suddenly be considered "OverPowered".

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>ironman2000 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> thorvang wrote:troub buffs are ok, dps is low as expected, but the troub is boring to play. there's just no activity involved with buffing. so i suggest something that's inspired by vanguard.#1 - lower the effectiveness of all buffs#2 - let all buffs stack with themselves. playing aria 3 times grants 3 times the mana regen#3 - let bards build "buffstacks". clicking together some buffs that in sum consume 5 conc and it's just one click to use themwhat's the use of that? the bard is able to switch songs on the fly. the fight starts, everyone is full with mana and putting out some damage spells. during that phase i use a highly specialized damage buff with some deaggro (i.e. 3 times dmg proc + 2 time deaggro)then a AE is incoming, i switch to 5x RoR to get a like 40% chance to reflect the AE. sadly the AE hits most of the group so i instantly switch to uberhealthregen what grants 560 hp per tick. in the course of the fight the healers are running oom so i make use of my 5x brias to push their mana up.you could still just sit around with your typical 5 buffs up, but you have the chance to actively react with highly specialized benefical spells to everything that may happen during a fight. <hr> </blockquote>I think its a balance issue, I can't see them implementing that because then we would suddenly be considered "OverPowered".<hr></blockquote>We have a loooooonnnggg way to go before any bard is considered overpowered.</div>

[ironman2000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ironman2000 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thorvang wrote:<BR>troub buffs are ok, dps is low as expected, but the troub is boring to play. there's just no activity involved with buffing. so i suggest something that's inspired by vanguard.<BR><BR>#1 - lower the effectiveness of all buffs<BR>#2 - let all buffs stack with themselves. playing aria 3 times grants 3 times the mana regen<BR>#3 - let bards build "buffstacks". clicking together some buffs that in sum consume 5 conc and it's just one click to use them<BR><BR>what's the use of that? the bard is able to switch songs on the fly. the fight starts, everyone is full with mana and putting out some damage spells. during that phase i use a highly specialized damage buff with some deaggro (i.e. 3 times dmg proc + 2 time deaggro)<BR>then a AE is incoming, i switch to 5x RoR to get a like 40% chance to reflect the AE. sadly the AE hits most of the group so i instantly switch to uberhealthregen what grants 560 hp per tick. in the course of the fight the healers are running oom so i make use of my 5x brias to push their mana up.<BR><BR>you could still just sit around with your typical 5 buffs up, but you have the chance to actively react with highly specialized benefical spells to everything that may happen during a fight.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think its a balance issue, I can't see them implementing that because then we would suddenly be considered "OverPowered".<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>We have a loooooonnnggg way to go before any bard is considered overpowered.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL you know that and I know that, but I don't think any Dev really plays a bard full time or they wouldn't have nerfed down the charm so bad.

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>ironman2000 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Lordviperscorpian wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> ironman2000 wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> thorvang wrote:troub buffs are ok, dps is low as expected, but the troub is boring to play. there's just no activity involved with buffing. so i suggest something that's inspired by vanguard.#1 - lower the effectiveness of all buffs#2 - let all buffs stack with themselves. playing aria 3 times grants 3 times the mana regen#3 - let bards build "buffstacks". clicking together some buffs that in sum consume 5 conc and it's just one click to use themwhat's the use of that? the bard is able to switch songs on the fly. the fight starts, everyone is full with mana and putting out some damage spells. during that phase i use a highly specialized damage buff with some deaggro (i.e. 3 times dmg proc + 2 time deaggro)then a AE is incoming, i switch to 5x RoR to get a like 40% chance to reflect the AE. sadly the AE hits most of the group so i instantly switch to uberhealthregen what grants 560 hp per tick. in the course of the fight the healers are running oom so i make use of my 5x brias to push their mana up.you could still just sit around with your typical 5 buffs up, but you have the chance to actively react with highly specialized benefical spells to everything that may happen during a fight. <hr> </blockquote>I think its a balance issue, I can't see them implementing that because then we would suddenly be considered "OverPowered". <hr> </blockquote>We have a loooooonnnggg way to go before any bard is considered overpowered.</div> <hr> </blockquote>LOL you know that and I know that, but I don't think any Dev really plays a bard full time or they wouldn't have nerfed down the charm so bad.<hr></blockquote>I still cant believe we havnt gotten a dev responce yet.  Hard to believe...</div>

[Emerix]

<P>You cant believe it ? Visit the Trouby Forum . One Dev response per year is good . </P> <P>Anyway . Make Trouby nukes and combat arts do as much damage as dirge ones and bards are fixed .</P>

[Sanju]

<div><blockquote><hr>Emerix wrote:<div></div> <p>Anyway . Make Trouby nukes and combat arts do as much damage as dirge ones and bards are fixed .</p><hr></blockquote>LOL. Maybe it fixes soloing and/or grouping bards (and I stress maybe), but that doesn't even begin to fix raiding bards (Troubs).</div>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emerix wrote:<BR> <P>You cant believe it ? Visit the Trouby Forum . One Dev response per year is good . </P> <P>Anyway . Make Trouby nukes and combat arts do as much damage as dirge ones and bards are fixed .</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>DPS isn't the problem.  I always parse higher than our dirges anyway.  Our DPS is fine, but it's not what I made a bard to do.

[Jaimster]

<DIV>I would agree that our dps is fine too...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but I also think it's a bit sad that it pretty much takes all masters or ad3's and a bunch of fabled gear to get you to where you think your own dps is "fine".... not fabulous, but fine, DPS?  Until that point, I didn't really think my dps was worth much of anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love my troub the way she is. If they don't make any changes I will be quite content, but she's also pretty kitted out at this point. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know troubs (bards in general) aren't really meant to be dps classes, but until we bring to the table some almost-game breaking ability or skill that so grossly outdoes anything any other class can bring to the table, bards are going to complain about their very very low dps (our dps isn't fine in normal gear with normal quality spells).</DIV>

[vinterskugge]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaimster wrote:<BR> <DIV>I would agree that our dps is fine too...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but I also think it's a bit sad that it pretty much takes all masters or ad3's and a bunch of fabled gear to get you to where you think your own dps is "fine".... not fabulous, but fine, DPS?  Until that point, I didn't really think my dps was worth much of anything.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We're bards, we're not meant to do fabulous dps.  I'd just rather our main job took some skill.  This doesn't mean I want twisting brought back, more buffs along the lines of Jester's Cap, Bladedance, Cacophony of Blades and Precision of the Maestro would work.

[Oakum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaimster wrote:<BR> <DIV>I would agree that our dps is fine too...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but I also think it's a bit sad that it pretty much takes all masters or ad3's and a bunch of fabled gear to get you to where you think your own dps is "fine".... not fabulous, but fine, DPS?  Until that point, I didn't really think my dps was worth much of anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love my troub the way she is. If they don't make any changes I will be quite content, but she's also pretty kitted out at this point. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know troubs (bards in general) aren't really meant to be dps classes, but until we bring to the table some almost-game breaking ability or skill that so grossly outdoes anything any other class can bring to the table, bards are going to complain about their very very low dps (our dps isn't fine in normal gear with normal quality spells).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My wife hates attempting to solo her dirge because "can't kill anything but greens and blues". </P> <P>Dps increase would probably help that but if it is anywhere equal to a low geared dps class, then it will be unacceptable to them because they will see themselves as nerfed in reverse. The dps classes will see themselves as easily replaced as a dps by a non dps classes when there are more dps then groups for them normally. Since bards would bring decent DPS and also bring superb utilitly/buffs/debuffs to a group, why would say, a ranger, be wanted at all if there was a bard avail. </P> <P>I can definitely understand why they say that though. Wardens are good healers but have no decent buffs or debuffs like the other priest classes have that make someone want one more then another healer class in a group unless they are just a higher lvl. </P> <P>Not only that but we are supposed to be equal DPS to a fury and better then a all clerics and shaman. That is not the case. Inquisitors and defilers can do better dps if they try then we can.</P> <P>However if they fixed our obvious weaknesses in the class the furies would complain about being equal in dps. Inquisitors and defilers would consider themselves to be lessoned since they would no longer be an all around better healer since they would now have direct heals, wards/reactives, better armor (plate/chain) and better buffs/debuffs then a warden. It would be the same thing if they actually gave us some useful buff that another priest did not have. They would consider themselves nerfed and fill out the forums with reasons why wardens shouldnt be fixed. </P> <P>Its human nature I suppose. If one class is raised in some way, then everyone who had the gap changed or would have to share their specialty a little bit more whether it be dps, buff, debuffs, or utility usually consider themselves to be less unique and not better then someone else like they were before. </P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Oakum wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Jaimster wrote: <div></div> <div>I would agree that our dps is fine too...</div> <div> </div> <div>but I also think it's a bit sad that it pretty much takes all masters or ad3's and a bunch of fabled gear to get you to where you think your own dps is "fine".... not fabulous, but fine, DPS?  Until that point, I didn't really think my dps was worth much of anything.</div> <div> </div> <div>I love my troub the way she is. If they don't make any changes I will be quite content, but she's also pretty kitted out at this point. </div> <div> </div> <div>I know troubs (bards in general) aren't really meant to be dps classes, but until we bring to the table some almost-game breaking ability or skill that so grossly outdoes anything any other class can bring to the table, bards are going to complain about their very very low dps (our dps isn't fine in normal gear with normal quality spells).</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>My wife hates attempting to solo her dirge because "can't kill anything but greens and blues". </p> <p>Dps increase would probably help that but if it is anywhere equal to a low geared dps class, then it will be unacceptable to them because they will see themselves as nerfed in reverse. The dps classes will see themselves as easily replaced as a dps by a non dps classes when there are more dps then groups for them normally. Since bards would bring decent DPS and also bring superb utilitly/buffs/debuffs to a group, why would say, a ranger, be wanted at all if there was a bard avail. </p> <p>I can definitely understand why they say that though. Wardens are good healers but have no decent buffs or debuffs like the other priest classes have that make someone want one more then another healer class in a group unless they are just a higher lvl. </p> <p>Not only that but we are supposed to be equal DPS to a fury and better then a all clerics and shaman. That is not the case. Inquisitors and defilers can do better dps if they try then we can.</p> <p>However if they fixed our obvious weaknesses in the class the furies would complain about being equal in dps. Inquisitors and defilers would consider themselves to be lessoned since they would no longer be an all around better healer since they would now have direct heals, wards/reactives, better armor (plate/chain) and better buffs/debuffs then a warden. It would be the same thing if they actually gave us some useful buff that another priest did not have. They would consider themselves nerfed and fill out the forums with reasons why wardens shouldnt be fixed. </p> <p>Its human nature I suppose. If one class is raised in some way, then everyone who had the gap changed or would have to share their specialty a little bit more whether it be dps, buff, debuffs, or utility usually consider themselves to be less unique and not better then someone else like they were before. </p><hr></blockquote>The issue isnt about DPS.  I could care less about my dps.  What i care about is how much i can increase my groups dps/defense.  Right now i can add a pretty good deal of defense to my group.  Parry and PoS do provide alot of help.  But what if i want to increase the DPS of my group?  Tombs, The combat, and Agil/str buff are almost useless when everyone is T7 geared.  I have to many useless buffs, and not enough good utility.  Thats all i want...is good utility.  Take the concentration sots off buffs like the hate song, self buff, resist buff.  change tombs to something thats acually useful, the combat and str/agil buff should have been combined into 1 buff from the get go.  I want the utility that bard classes deserve.  </div>

[Krooner]

<DIV>I solo'ed my dirge all the way up to about 55.  I still solo for fun and for cash.  Yes Greens and blues are easy to kill.  But it is by Far the only thing we can kill.</DIV> <DIV>Try no up yellows.  or even one up yellow.  Groups of 1 and 2 down yellow.  Groups of white.  If your looking for insta kills the dirge isnt it.  But if your looking for a fun kill were it.  I love getting the mob down to a tick of health laying on lanets and fearing them away.  Watch them explode.  Once again if your looking for something that DPS's tier 1 play another scout class.  Our utility is our flavor.  If you give us more DPS then were bound to have a lot of utility taken away.  then all were left with is a bland sub par DPS with no real utility.</DIV>

[Qwestionator]

I agree with Applesauce completely on what he said about 2 posts up, i really dont give a hoot about my own dps, its all about increasing the dps of the raid as a whole, i rarely appear on parsers and when i do its near the bottom.  i think that some of our songs need to be buffed up a little, i wouldnt mind if our resist songs were increased, especially as they scale in level - like our addy 3 elemental buffed closer to 2k.  I just think that every song should be worth a conc slot, and even in fights where resists are needed the 1000 isnt really worth it IMO, not always but it could use a buff from what ive seen.  Also on a troubador only note - RoR needs to be fixed.  Maybe so that you cast it  and it goes on cooldown for 1.5-2 mins and 100% chance to reflect the next spell that is cast on you.  Something along those lines would be much more practical - not take up a conc slot - and would help much more than the currect dot absorber we have.  i know this has been brought up so many times as well but as a troubador im begging that the charm nerf is reconsidered - at least in pve terms.  In pvp i understand that charm can be an overpowered tool, but in pve i think that the duration should be looked at again and bumped up to 1 or 2 minutes.  Would also be nice to see troubs get a few more dots, at the moment there is only one practical dot , would it be possible to make offensive spells able to take concentration slots and just make them much more potent? just a thought.<div></div>

[Reptilianb]

<DIV>Talking of pvp...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm a Q Troub...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are we supposed to be unable to kill bruisers in defensive stance (with uber mental mit) and being able to break mez at will.</DIV> <DIV>My ultimate lvl 50 spell is mez, and it is useless against bruisers, along with all my other attacks...</DIV> <DIV>are all my attacks including "melee type" attacks supposed to do mental dmg? or should our melee attacks do melee dmg?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What or who are we supposed to solo? how can i stand up against other classes?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, i agree with RoR should reflect one spell without a 10% chance to or whatever it is.. it should just reflect one spell no matter what.</DIV> <DIV>I'm so dissapointed about how crappy my troub is now in pvp solo. I could take anyone on 1 on 1 using "skill" up till lvl 55, now its getting more and more difficult, even with pvp merchant fabled and all m1/ad3. No matter how skillful you are, its just going to be no use at 70 against 90% of the other classes.</DIV> <DIV>i want to cry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give is something good.. i don't want to be a soft as crap scout buff bot. Give us some stronger self buffs and pets and more snares and longer charm and cast all songs while running, make our uber lvl50 mez spell (u know, our uberest 50 spell) higher resist and unbreakable in pvp (unless it takes dmg ofc). Make or demorilizing debuff do double the affects it does now. Make us harder but make us have to do more skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I give up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why can i brigand debuff better than me, why oh why can a brigand just run up to me, dispatch stun kill before i can do anything (thats after hes resisted mez while running torwards me 90% of the time with ad3 mez).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give us better in combat run speed, better AAs, a ranger has 14% in combat runspeed with the right aas? i got 6%? and i'm the king of travel? Let us mez multiple mobs/players, whether it be by a aoe spell or reducing recast on current mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Increase belows chance to knockdown by about 3x, 70% chance, not 15%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>More PVP spells</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>give us a boost please for the love of god.</DIV>

[Bobbiac]

<div></div>can we PLEASE not be paper "tanks" yeah i dont normally tank, but in Legendary (see decked out) my mitagation stinks... other scouts get SEPARATE def/offensive self buffs.. why do we only get 1?we NEED a Defensive stance.. no no just resists, actual mit and avoidenceif nothing else give us the option to AP into a plate class<div></div><p>Message Edited by Bobbiac on <span class=date_text>08-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:40 AM</span>

[Chefren]

<div><blockquote><hr>Reptilianboy wrote:<div> </div> <div>Why can i brigand debuff better than me</div><hr></blockquote>Because his debuffs are shorter duration single target debuffs while ours are encounter debuffs. Expecting the same raw numbers is not realistic. Just remember you can kite better than him.</div>

[Reptilianb]

you can't kite when you are tripple snared and 10sec stunned.

[Snublefot]

<P>A self component when casting Jesters on someone else would be great.</P> <P>Another would be to change Reflection to a AE immunity spell similar to the last of the Strength line. That would give troubs more choice in the AA selections.</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

The bard classes just arnt on par anymore due to nerfs/expansions/poor scaling.  Other classes got awesome abilities and we keep geting jipped on stuff we need.Still waiting on the day we get our desperatly needed upgrades.<div></div>

[Chefren]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote:<BR> you can't kite when you are tripple snared and 10sec stunned.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Neither can your enemy hurt you much if he is rooted or feared.<BR>

[Calman]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lordviperscorpian wrote:The bard classes just arnt on par anymore due to nerfs/expansions/poor scaling.  Other classes got awesome abilities and we keep geting jipped on stuff we need.<font color="#ffff00">Still waiting on the day we get our desperatly needed upgrades.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote>Well by the lack of any sort of Dev response to the pages and pages of  pleading to give some love to bards (from a lot of the community not just bards) , I would think they consider bards Fixed and done. So we might have a long wait. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </div>

[Sanju]

SOE doesn't care about bard people.<div></div>

[Nib]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sanju wrote:SOE doesn't care about bard people.<div></div><hr></blockquote><div></div>True enough. Especially when you're dealing with the raiding Dirge. Parry buff? Against Orange cons? Silly Dirges. STR/AGI buff? How far over the cap do you want to be? Stoneskin? GG.We have to work our butts off to outparse AFKers -- which okay, fine, I can live with.  The raiding Dirge is a glorified hate buff that gets to cast Cacophony of Blades once in a while.   Please, Please, Please -- give us some real buffs. <p>Message Edited by wyoung on <span class=date_text>08-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 PM</span>

[Sanju]

<div><blockquote><hr>wyoung wrote:Especially when you're dealing with the raiding Dirge. The raiding Dirge is a glorified hate buff that gets to cast Cacophony of Blades once in a while.  <hr></blockquote>Raiding Troubs are in no better a position.The raiding Troubador is a glorified hate debuff that gets to cast Precision of the Maestro once in a while.(We both can get Bladedance every once in a while, you rez if needed and we Jester's.)I had a nice post on this in the Troub forums (Raiding bards and player skill, or something to that effect) that got some good player feedback, but no developer response at all. Nothing in the IRC chats, summit (as far as I know), etc. Even if they gave us "real buffs" (i.e. once that actually made a noticable difference) it wouldn't be enough for me, because they still require no skill -- spell quality would be more important. Unless they introduced more powerful short duration buffs.</div>

[Jaimster]

<DIV>I can't decide in what fashion to respond, so I'm going to go with:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hopeful: Just because they aren't responding, doesn't mean they aren't reading these... and they haven't said "No way, we're finished with you"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jaded: I think the Troub board got the one response we'll get this year (at least we're over half way through with it) prior to LU19</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scared: Based on all previous "fixes", maybe we shouldn't be asking for more...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honest: I think they are happy with Troubs the way they are right now (the only bard class I've played). They are pretty set in a group situation... and anyone (and I've done it too so I'm not pointing fingers, just pointing it out) who complains that they can't solo as well as many other classes needs only to remind themselves that the bard classes are group oriented.  They probably figure that in a raid, a bard is also very useful and therefore everything is just fine.  The bard class isn't for everyone, which is why there are so few of us, but it's one of the reasons I'm proud of being a Troub.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While they haven't addressed the issues that we are frustrated with, e.g. skill, buffs capping out, the overall fun factor, etc; overall on the surface we are actually quite fine, and while initially any Troub/Dirge might be considered useful in a group or raid, I"m sure there are a few who, whether they think there is a difference or not, have managed to outclass other bards based on their playstyles, their commitment, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree with the general consensus on the Troub boards regarding the raiding bard... and there is certainly room for improvement... but with everything else that the devs are trying to accomplish, I'm not holding my breath because while we could use a few improvements, we are also not broken.</DIV>

[Lynadianya Zeran]

<P>I have another one....</P> <P>If a mob is heroic and is not a named then let us charm the freakin thing.  It's not like we are going to have the mob so long that we will break a ring event, but I suppose there is no way to differentiate between Troub charm and Chanter charm.</P> <P>I ran into this problem last night.  Heroic adds.  I could mez them, but I could not charm them.  I got the "this creature is too powerful".  No it isn't!  It's heroic!  This really annoyed me, because I had even suggested the strategy of charming the adds and moving them to position when, in the thick of it, I go to charm one and I get a "this creature is too powerful".</P> <P>I don't expect to be able to charm epics, that's an enchanter's job.  I expect to see some consistancy in a zone though.  If it is not charmeable because it is part of a ring event, then it should say that.  If it is not part of a ring event and not epic then I should have ability to charm them - normal resist rules apply.  I don't mind being outright resisted, but I find it to be annoying that we can run into heroic creatures that we can not charm for our whole 8 seconds (actually, I now have 14 seconds with the master 1 Wohoo!) to get them out of the way or to get them positioned for off tank or dps burn.</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div></div>It doesnt take a genious to realize that at level 70 when people are fully geared we cant add much to help them.  Our buffs become useless and a waste of concentation.  Thats the flaw.  Why not just add Percussion of stone to a plate BP so we finnally can become obsolete. Bards need a little upgrading.  Were not asking for dps.  Were asking for our buffs and debuffs to acually make a difference.  Make us <b>bards</b>, <u>not </u>buff bots.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class=date_text>09-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:17 PM</span>

[Krooner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR>It doesnt take a fool to realize that at level 70 when people are fully geared we cant add much to help them.  Our buffs become useless and a waste of concentation.  Thats the flaw.  Why not just add Percussion of stone to a plate BP so we finnally can become obsolete. <BR><BR>Bards need a little upgrading.  Were not asking for dps.  Were asking for our buffs and debuffs to acually make a difference.  Make us bards not buff bots.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I hear Ya.</P> <P>Go have a look how many of our spells are not going to be upgraded until 81+ as well.  </P> <P>With level additions WAY off in site I can very easily see little things like equipment procs and changes to other classes sucking the fun and effectiveness from our utility. </P>

[firza]

<P>If you look at different changes to the game since the beginning each and every one of the general changes made us less effecitve.</P> <P>agi nerf affected our buff and debuff effectiveness.</P> <P>Proc nerf of second hand affected our buff effectiveness.</P> <P>etc.</P> <P>Include non effective upgrading of debuffs and buffs (not every song but enough of them) makes us less effective at higher level also.</P> <P>The only thing about bard classes that seems consistant through the different tiers is our personal dps. Which is fine where it is .</P> <P>I think as a group class we should be able to accomplish the following:</P> <P>personal dps+group dps = group+1 (in case of ideal group set up)</P> <P>It feels more like</P> <P>personal + group dps = group - 0.5 to me. and more in most cases since group set up is mostly non ideal.</P> <P>(I think the same is true for group defensive capabilites, but this is harder to show)</P>

[TalanRM]

<DIV>I fully agree with Lord's post. A number of our buffs do dramatically reduce in power on well equipped groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Dissonant Boon - I've never noticed or had a group member comment on the effect of this buff ever.</DIV> <DIV>  Tomb's - Joke of a spell.</DIV> <DIV>  Harl's - A well equipped tank has capped strength anyway and the agility buff, even at Master 1, will add litterally nothing to  avoidance.</DIV> <DIV>  Screeching Elusion - Does have some use, but the percentage avoidance the parry bonus gives drops off rapidly for a well equipped tank. Is an extra 2% avoidance really that great?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bria's, Hyrana's, Noxious and Percussion of Stone all do seem to do their intended role (although the strength boost on Hyrana's is irrelevant to a well equipped tank).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Riana's and Daro's have not properly upgraded for 2-3 tiers. Whilst I understand this from a game balance perspective, how about replacing the high tier verions them with new spells?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Discante is now only effective for the strength debuff as the changes to mechanics render the agility debuff portion irrelevant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bard's ooze potential for situationally useful buffs and debuffs to be added which don't tread on the toes of other classes. The Devs are clearly able to come up with some interesting ideas (PoS, CoB, Oration, SD etc.). Why not add a host of utility spells to make us that jack-of-all-trades that a bard should be?</DIV>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>TalanRM wrote:<div>I fully agree with Lord's post. A number of our buffs do dramatically reduce in power on well equipped groups.</div> <div> </div> <div>  Dissonant Boon - I've never noticed or had a group member comment on the effect of this buff ever.</div> <div>  Tomb's - Joke of a spell.</div> <div>  Harl's - A well equipped tank has capped strength anyway and the agility buff, even at Master 1, will add litterally nothing to  avoidance.</div> <div>  Screeching Elusion - Does have some use, but the percentage avoidance the parry bonus gives drops off rapidly for a well equipped tank. Is an extra 2% avoidance really that great?</div> <div> </div> <div>Bria's, Hyrana's, Noxious and Percussion of Stone all do seem to do their intended role (although the strength boost on Hyrana's is irrelevant to a well equipped tank).</div> <div> </div> <div>Riana's and Daro's have not properly upgraded for 2-3 tiers. Whilst I understand this from a game balance perspective, how about replacing the high tier verions them with new spells?</div> <div> </div> <div>Discante is now only effective for the strength debuff as the changes to mechanics render the agility debuff portion irrelevant.</div> <div> </div> <div>Bard's ooze potential for situationally useful buffs and debuffs to be added which don't tread on the toes of other classes. The Devs are clearly able to come up with some interesting ideas (PoS, CoB, Oration, SD etc.). Why not add a host of utility spells to make us that jack-of-all-trades that a bard should be?</div><hr></blockquote>Exactly.   Now im just waiting for the developers to realize it.  Maybe one will get bored of their birgand and make a bard alt.</div>

[Hazeroth]

<P>What I would really like to see is a 3 concentration Slot Raid Buff.</P> <P>For instanced, a 3 slot Bria's. A Bard may only have 3 buffs up but at least EVERYONE in the raid will benefit from it. And then that frees up any other bard in the raid to use a different buff.</P> <P>Rare is the raid that has 4 Bards.</P> <P>Oh, and more Blue AoEs. Right now the only one we have is the interupt. I'ld like to see our debuffs actually have a Blue version. So if we get multiple adds we can Tag them all.</P> <P> </P> <P>Plus, Stupid mobs, I feel slighted that no matter how hard I try, putting out all my DPS and debuffs I can, the damned mobs ignore me! Come on, I'm hitting you, look at me DAM IT, TARINAX. YOU SHIFTING AGRO TO A HEALER! A HEALER DAM YOU, WHAT I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU TO ONE TAP? I'M TIRED OF BEING ONE OF THE LAST PEOPLE YOU KILL! </P> <P>Evade? What the hell is that?</P> <P> </P> <P>Silentchord, lvl 70 Dirge</P> <P>Antonia Bayle, Journeymen of the Overlord</P><p>Message Edited by Hazeroth on <span class=date_text>09-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 AM</span>

[Hazeroth]

<DIV>Here are a few suggestions for new songs that could jazz up the Bards utility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fading Memories: Your Target will be completely removed from all hate lists, (maybe make it an AA)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>High Sun: Completely resets an encounter. As long as the encounter is credited to you, no one, or someone yells for help. It will take your target and forces them to become invulnerable and run back to their start point. (definately want to make that one a long recast, maybe 15 or 30 minutes. I mention Fading Memories and High Sun because Bards use to be the ultimate Puller, I once pulled a named in Wall of Slaughter from literally across the whole zone.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Damage shield: Come on, we need a Damage shield like in EQLive, a nice group wide DS. This is perfect for bards since we should be the masters of indirect damage, buffage, and debuffage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Damage redirect: damage that would go to target player will be redirected to the target of that player by #%. For instanced, you have 4 mobs hitting your Tank. on occation an attack that would normally hit the tank will instead go to your tanks target. Or make it like, "The next # hits" get redirected for 36 seconds. With higher ranked songs doing more redirected attacks. Have Melee based attacks get redirected for Dirges and Spell type damage being redirected for Troubs.  I think a bard should excell at increase DPS the more enemies that are fighting the bards group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Time Bombs: More Time bomb songs. Likea Debuff that for x amount of times a mob uses a CA or Spell, that mob will take damage or the debuff will get progressively worse.</DIV> <DIV>Criteria Bombs: Like, if a mobs moves when a bomb is on them they take damage. If they heal themselves, they find there heals are halved, and half the heal goes to you. If they hit someone other then a Warrior class they find they de-agro the person they hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I really like to see are abilities that turns a mobs strengths into weaknesses and a groups weaknesses into strengths.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And in PvP, fighting a bard is like suddenly finding yourself in a mind field. Make people wonder, if I move will I take damage? If I heal I may end up helping the bard. Or uhoh, can't use CA or I'll get Nuked hard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are just a couple of suggestions for making bards more fun to play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Silentchord, lvl 70 Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Antonia Bayle, Journeymen of the overlord.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Hazeroth on <SPAN class=date_text>09-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:48 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Hazeroth on <span class=date_text>09-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:57 PM</span>

[Kyrsten]

<div><blockquote><hr>Hazeroth wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div><p> DAM IT, TARINAX. YOU SHIFTING AGRO TO A HEALER! A HEALER DAM YOU, WHAT I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU TO ONE TAP? I'M TIRED OF BEING ONE OF THE LAST PEOPLE YOU KILL! </p><hr></blockquote>hahahahaha</div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

One of the spells im most disapointed with is the Wail of Horror series.  Its pretty much useless and we all know it.  They need to change this into a 15min ability that acually does something.  Or maybe an AE fear with massive damage on experation...i mean the spell is called Wail of horror and doesnt live up to its name at all.Not to mention i have M1 wail of horror and it still gets resisted by greys in pvp all the time. Anotehr one of the many useless spells developers decided to give us.<div></div>

[Rendoir]

Give us an AA line for 2 more concentration slots.

[Lordviperscorpian]

<blockquote><hr>Rendoir wrote:<div></div>Give us an AA line for 2 more concentration slots.<hr></blockquote>What!? And remove super awesome abilities like coin toss and bards luck!?  /gasp

[Krooner]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR>One of the spells im most disapointed with is the Wail of Horror series.  Its pretty much useless and we all know it.  They need to change this into a 15min ability that acually does something.  Or maybe an AE fear with massive damage on experation...i mean the spell is called Wail of horror and doesnt live up to its name at all.<BR><BR>Not to mention i have M1 wail of horror and it still gets resisted by greys in pvp all the time. <BR><BR>Anotehr one of the many useless spells developers decided to give us.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I use this ability on raids all the time.  Mostly just to complete HO's because its usefullness agaisnt Epics is pretty limited.  I havent been able to confirm from any parses but It would be nice if the blurr component actually worked on epics and lowered their to hit ratio by a sizable level.  Either that or make it a dot interupt for say 3 ticks.  IMO its not going to invade in on the enchanters turf either because its not a Daze Stun Styfle or charm.  Its not crowd control but it will help.</DIV>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Lordviperscorpian wrote:One of the spells im most disapointed with is the Wail of Horror series.  Its pretty much useless and we all know it.  They need to change this into a 15min ability that acually does something.  Or maybe an AE fear with massive damage on experation...i mean the spell is called Wail of horror and doesnt live up to its name at all.Not to mention i have M1 wail of horror and it still gets resisted by greys in pvp all the time. Anotehr one of the many useless spells developers decided to give us. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I use this ability on raids all the time.  Mostly just to complete HO's because its usefullness agaisnt Epics is pretty limited.  I havent been able to confirm from any parses but It would be nice if the blurr component actually worked on epics and lowered their to hit ratio by a sizable level.  Either that or make it a dot interupt for say 3 ticks.  IMO its not going to invade in on the enchanters turf either because its not a Daze Stun Styfle or charm.  Its not crowd control but it will help.</div><hr></blockquote>Thats about the only time i use it in pve, when i need to complete an HO.  So basically its just a coin toss type deal for us atm.  Which is lame.  </div>

[Reptilianb]

hmmmm no bard updates on the patch notes..

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote:<BR> hmmmm no bard updates on the patch notes..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>There's a shocker.... though presumably you mean besides the new hats <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Seriously, they believe they fixed us... it's someone else's turn to get their class turned inside out (for better or worse, sometimes you just can't tell).</P> <P>It would take a whole half an hour to compile the things that bards want as a whole and Troubs/Dirges want as separate classes, but someone actually has to bother doing that. Pretty much the only reply in the past year in the Troub thread was a dev who swore they played a troub but no one liked them in the office, or something to that effect... great news for us huh?   Pretty much means unless one of the "uber devs" decides to try out a bard class, we're pretty much screwed.</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jaimster wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Reptilianboy wrote: <div></div>hmmmm no bard updates on the patch notes.. <hr> </blockquote> <p>There's a shocker.... though presumably you mean besides the new hats <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Seriously, they believe they fixed us... it's someone else's turn to get their class turned inside out (for better or worse, sometimes you just can't tell).</p> <p>It would take a whole half an hour to compile the things that bards want as a whole and Troubs/Dirges want as separate classes, but someone actually has to bother doing that. Pretty much the only reply in the past year in the Troub thread was a dev who swore they played a troub but no one liked them in the office, or something to that effect... great news for us huh?   Pretty much means unless one of the "uber devs" decides to try out a bard class, we're pretty much screwed.</p><hr></blockquote>Thats heart breaking.  One more question...Dirge fear.Swashy mez.Swashy can cast their 1.5 sec mez on the run.Dirge cannot cast their 2.0 sec fear on the run.Something doesnt seem correct...</div>

[Jaimster]

<DIV>Btw when I said "them" I meant the actual person not Bards <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />... I just spent an hour trying to find the specific post but couldn't - I'm not sure if it got deleted or if I just wasn't looking in the right place... if you were reading the Troub forums at that time though, I'm sure you will remember it as being someone trying to be sort of funny and at the time, it didn't really work (sorry these are all about Troubs not dirges)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One response was from Lockeye which pretty much settled the matter of Troub's Charm and Mezz back before LU 24.  However, given the drastic changes they made to the Troub at that point, and the outrage/debate that followed, I would imagine that any other good changes would have gone in at that time...even just as a counterbalance:</DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR>Troubadors were not forgotten in LU24, hence the many and ongoing changes to charm being tested on the test server. Also, what is visible on the test server is often one week behind what is being tested internally. There are already more changes that will show up on the test server that reflect decisions based on the data collected from the previously tested version (and not the non-tested message board reactions to each change).<BR><BR>The charm originally was an expensive mesmerization that would hold an enemy for an extended duration and their only action would be to follow the Troubador.  Through other changes to the spell system, the charm allowed the creature to attack enemies, even though there wasn't an attack command ever allowed for the pet. Effectively, it became close to a 1 concentration cost charm available to a scout class. The new changes reflect that it is now a short duration charm that a Troubador can use to effectively remove a creature from combat and use their damage to the Troubador's short-term advantage. It won't be until next week when you can see the latest changes that were made to it on the test server.<BR><BR>Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature. It's certainly less than what they could do before, but how powerful it was before in locking up to 4 creatures had to be evaluated like all other classes and did not have a place to be so powerful in the broader control changes. I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells.<BR><BR>I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[Qwestionator]

Honestly as a troubador, especially in a pvp environment - our buffs need to be rescaled so that they arent next to useless - str/stamina buff gives a massiave 300 health - yeah thats a nice use of a concentration slot.  (yes its mastered) - Defense song is useless for a tank with decent gear - mana song, no complaints - health regen - when is this useful besides when your solo kiting a heroic mob which youll spend 5 mins killing anyways -  Its kind of messed up that the swash hat from vaults of el erad has a 20% chance to proc a distract and our de agro song only has a 5% chance (note that bards dont even GET a vaults hat so... yeah) - RoR needs to be changed so that it does more then pull you into combat when you dont want to be.  Self buff- honestly i love this one i dont think it needs altering - but yeah im just angry at life when i realized that i only have like 2/3 meaningful raiding songs and in pvp its basically like... so which song is less useless?  I know that dirges have similiar complaints ( you guys get stoneskin though /cry) but our buffs really could use some tuning ( no pun intended)<div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Qwestionator wrote:Honestly as a troubador, especially in a pvp environment - our buffs need to be rescaled so that they arent next to useless - str/stamina buff gives a massiave 300 health - yeah thats a nice use of a concentration slot.  (yes its mastered) - Defense song is useless for a tank with decent gear - mana song, no complaints - health regen - when is this useful besides when your solo kiting a heroic mob which youll spend 5 mins killing anyways -  Its kind of messed up that the swash hat from vaults of el erad has a 20% chance to proc a distract and our de agro song only has a 5% chance (note that bards dont even GET a vaults hat so... yeah) - RoR needs to be changed so that it does more then pull you into combat when you dont want to be.  Self buff- honestly i love this one i dont think it needs altering - but yeah im just angry at life when i realized that i only have like 2/3 meaningful raiding songs and in pvp its basically like... so which song is less useless?  I know that dirges have similiar complaints ( you guys get stoneskin though /cry) but our buffs really could use some tuning ( no pun intended)<div></div><hr></blockquote>I think were falling on deaf ears at this point.  3 bard posts over 5 pages each and no dev responce.  </div>

[Qwestionator]

Yeah, we will prolly be informed that the thread needs locking because its in the wrong forum  but whatever - another thing that has been occuring to me lately is the fact that bards are the only scout that cannot use poison.  Bards have track, backstab, stealth openers so why dont we have the ability to use poisons? it seems to be  a standard "scout archetype" ability - would be really nice if we could use those poisons.<div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Qwestionator wrote:Yeah, we will prolly be informed that the thread needs locking because its in the wrong forum  but whatever - another thing that has been occuring to me lately is the fact that bards are the only scout that cannot use poison.  Bards have track, backstab, stealth openers so why dont we have the ability to use poisons? it seems to be  a standard "scout archetype" ability - would be really nice if we could use those poisons.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Thats the million dollar question for us bards.  We ask and ask, and what do they do?  They change our poison AA ability from 2% to 3% per point.  If it acually did decent damage i wouldnt complain but 150dmg up front followed by 80dmg every 5 seconds sucks.  They need to make the poison AA dmg scale as well...then i wont complain about poisons anymore.But yea...poisons would be nice.  Then my pvp bow would acually have a purpose instead of taking up backpack slots with poisons i cant use.  </div>

[Tri]

Merging some of our buffs seems like the way to go but doing that would take away the false feeling of versatility bards have which opens another question : how come we are good enough to single target a monster 50 meters away with a song !! and not have any AEs ??? something like merging the casting skill buff with the proc line adding str and sta to haste line and hp regen to avoidance song For as the game goes now neither the casting skill buff nor the hp regen song are often played, and thats not because the other spells are far better but because they are less useless. Other spells falling in the less useless departement are raxxyls, which in end game is only usefull for low strengh casters who would be overencumbered after a death. Same for the resists song, might as well merge them too in one general resist song , did you ever see a mob using magic and elemental? might as well add RoR to the resists and make it in one anti magic song As i see it now we only have two great buffs, hate and mana songs , followed by the haste song, the others feel like fluff spells we are not broken, other classes need more attention than us, but there is definetely some work needed here and some remarks from the devs would be appreciated <div></div>

[Lint26]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Thats the million dollar question for us bards.  We ask and ask, and what do they do?  They change our poison AA ability from 2% to 3% per point.  If it acually did decent damage i wouldnt complain but 150dmg up front followed by 80dmg every 5 seconds sucks.  They need to make the poison AA dmg scale as well...then i wont complain about poisons anymore.<BR><BR>But yea...poisons would be nice.  Then my pvp bow would acually have a purpose instead of taking up backpack slots with poisons i cant use.  <BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>In the KoS beta test the poison AA started off at doing 1000 dmg+ over the full duration at a 20% chance to proc (mastered out), then it was the only ability worth getting excited about (before DkTM came along), they nerfed it pretty quickly afterwards.<BR>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lint26 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Lordviperscorpian wrote: <div>Thats the million dollar question for us bards.  We ask and ask, and what do they do?  They change our poison AA ability from 2% to 3% per point.  If it acually did decent damage i wouldnt complain but 150dmg up front followed by 80dmg every 5 seconds sucks.  They need to make the poison AA dmg scale as well...then i wont complain about poisons anymore.But yea...poisons would be nice.  Then my pvp bow would acually have a purpose instead of taking up backpack slots with poisons i cant use.  </div> <div> <hr> </div></blockquote>In the KoS beta test the poison AA started off at doing 1000 dmg+ over the full duration at a 20% chance to proc (mastered out), then it was the only ability worth getting excited about (before DkTM came along), they nerfed it pretty quickly afterwards.<hr></blockquote>Of course they could just fix our other HORRIBLE AA choices.  I mean who comes up with bard abilities anyway?  A ranged deaggro!?  Are you kidding me?  An ability that increases casting speed by only 8%!?  Its like a bad joke.  The other AA's are to horrible to even mention.  Not to mention DKTM is the only final AA ability worth geting besides the stupid AoE group immunity for raiding.  The rest are a joke.  Im dreading the release of EoF for bards.  More useless AA's incoming!  Cant wait for the coin toss upgrade! /sarcasm.</div><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class="date_text">09-12-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:45 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class=date_text>09-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 AM</span>

[Krooner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lint26 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Thats the million dollar question for us bards.  We ask and ask, and what do they do?  They change our poison AA ability from 2% to 3% per point.  If it acually did decent damage i wouldnt complain but 150dmg up front followed by 80dmg every 5 seconds sucks.  They need to make the poison AA dmg scale as well...then i wont complain about poisons anymore.<BR><BR>But yea...poisons would be nice.  Then my pvp bow would acually have a purpose instead of taking up backpack slots with poisons i cant use.  <BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>In the KoS beta test the poison AA started off at doing 1000 dmg+ over the full duration at a 20% chance to proc (mastered out), then it was the only ability worth getting excited about (before DkTM came along), they nerfed it pretty quickly afterwards.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Of course they could just fix our other HORRIBLE AA choices.  I mean who comes up with bard abilities anyway?  A ranged deaggro!?  Are you kidding me?  An ability that increases casting speed by only 8%!?  Its like a bad joke.  The other AA's are to horrible to even mention.  Not to mention DKTM is the only final AA ability worth geting besides the stupid AoE group immunity for raiding.  The rest are a joke.  <BR><BR>Im dreading the release of EoF for bards.  More useless AA's incoming!  Cant wait for the coin toss upgrade! /sarcasm.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <SPAN class=date_text>09-12-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:45 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <SPAN class=date_text>09-12-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:47 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>IMO Allegro does come in handy.  And when you combine it with other classes AA's, Our Nightcoord hat, and a few other casting time reduction items our spells come back up and cast caster ALOT.</P> <P>But you are correct.  The only Final AA worth having is DKTM hands down.</P> <P>My problem is that with Stats on Gear and the progression of other classes AA's and Spells we are being outpaced in our utility upgrades.</P> <P>Things are going to get REALLY boring for us over the next year unless we get some good class specific AA's</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

I hope the devs are at least reading this.  This post isnt going away.  If it does...well have another one back up soon.  <div></div>

[ironman2000]

So seriously, I wonder if any of the devs play a bard full time, or do they just play test with one?  I would bet none of them play a bard on a regular basis.

[Lordviperscorpian]

<img src="http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7614/eq2000346fc9.jpg"><div></div>This is going to shock most of you...but apparently blackguard plays a Troubador.  He stoped b nagafen and had a chat with a couple people.  Heres the SS...<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class=date_text>09-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 AM</span>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Im guessing its a low level troubador if anything.  <div></div>

[Jaimster]

<P>That would be a shame... it's hard to compare at lower levels... hopefully he'll stick it out through all the levels... and actually experience what we are all talking about... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>Although as long as my troub doesn't get nerfed more, I'll be okay... </P>

[ironman2000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR>Im guessing its a low level troubador if anything.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>and probably hardly played, more of a pop into the game kind of thing.

[Reptilianb]

<P>with the last update... Bards can no longer command a playing character to attack another character... what a joke</P> <P>PVP Troub</P>

[Chefren]

<div><blockquote><hr>Hazeroth wrote:<div></div> <div></div><div>Criteria Bombs: Like, if a mobs moves when a bomb is on them they take damage. If they heal themselves, they find there heals are halved, and half the heal goes to you. If they hit someone other then a Warrior class they find they de-agro the person they hit.</div><hr></blockquote>Nice idea. Like a 10 sec debuff that makes a mobs AOE affect itself as well?</div>

[TalanRM]

<P>"IMO Allegro does come in handy.  And when you combine it with other classes AA's, Our Nightcoord hat, and a few other casting time reduction items our spells come back up and cast caster ALOT."</P> <P>- Got to disagree here. The principle of Allegro, i.e. reducing casting time, is fine. However:</P> <P>           1 rank of allegro - reduces casting time by 0.1 (minimum deduction after rounding)</P> <P>           8 ranks of allegro + nightcord hat - reduces casting time by the same 0.1 or maybe 0.2 with rounding.</P> <P>Only casting time reducing item I have is the Nightcord hat (which doesnt reducing casting time at all provided you have at least 1 rank in Allegro) so I can't comment on the effects of other items. However, 0.8% reduction per rank is clearly meaningless:</P> <P>e.g. Casting time 2 secs (long casting time for a Bard art)</P> <P>       2 secs x 0.8% = 0.016/sec reduction </P> <P>       0.16 x 8 ranks = 0.124/sec reduction</P> <P>       Add Nightcord hat (3% reduction) = further 0.06/sec casting time reduction</P> <P>      Total reduction for 8 ranks + Nightcord hat = 0.184/sec reduction.</P> <P>The 0.8% per rank is clearly too small to make any difference between 1 and 8 ranks. Idea of ability is fine, the maths shows that the level of reduction doesn't work though - each level of an AA should make a difference, even if only a minor one.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>TalanRM wrote:<div></div> <p>"IMO Allegro does come in handy.  And when you combine it with other classes AA's, Our Nightcoord hat, and a few other casting time reduction items our spells come back up and cast caster ALOT."</p> <p>- Got to disagree here. The principle of Allegro, i.e. reducing casting time, is fine. However:</p> <p>           1 rank of allegro - reduces casting time by 0.1 (minimum deduction after rounding)</p> <p>           8 ranks of allegro + nightcord hat - reduces casting time by the same 0.1 or maybe 0.2 with rounding.</p> <p>Only casting time reducing item I have is the Nightcord hat (which doesnt reducing casting time at all provided you have at least 1 rank in Allegro) so I can't comment on the effects of other items. However, 0.8% reduction per rank is clearly meaningless:</p> <p>e.g. Casting time 2 secs (long casting time for a Bard art)</p> <p>       2 secs x 0.8% = 0.016/sec reduction </p> <p>       0.16 x 8 ranks = 0.124/sec reduction</p> <p>       Add Nightcord hat (3% reduction) = further 0.06/sec casting time reduction</p> <p>      Total reduction for 8 ranks + Nightcord hat = 0.184/sec reduction.</p> <p>The 0.8% per rank is clearly too small to make any difference between 1 and 8 ranks. Idea of ability is fine, the maths shows that the level of reduction doesn't work though - each level of an AA should make a difference, even if only a minor one.</p> <hr></blockquote>Exactly.  More terrible scaling.  Who ever makes the bard abilities has not the slightest clue what he is doing.  Terrible design.</div>

[KazzySoJaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote:<BR> <DIV>Troubs:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cast all songs while moving</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AoE Mez that mezzes each tick, and makes you have to twist the song to cast anything else aswell. Continous drains power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snare that snares each tick, lasts 12secs so you can afford one to resist, and drains power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Less interuptable charm, longer duration, less re-use time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dirge:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AoE Fear, same as the aoe mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snare same as above</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cast songs while moving</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bring Back Twisting.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>100% agree, bring back twisting.  Was one of the reasons I played a bard in eqlive, because it took skill/experience to twist.

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>KazzySoJazzy wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Reptilianboy wrote: <div>Troubs:</div> <div> </div> <div>Cast all songs while moving</div> <div> </div> <div>AoE Mez that mezzes each tick, and makes you have to twist the song to cast anything else aswell. Continous drains power.</div> <div> </div> <div>Snare that snares each tick, lasts 12secs so you can afford one to resist, and drains power.</div> <div> </div> <div>Less interuptable charm, longer duration, less re-use time.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Dirge:</div> <div> </div> <div>AoE Fear, same as the aoe mez.</div> <div> </div> <div>Snare same as above</div> <div> </div> <div>Cast songs while moving</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Bring Back Twisting.</div> <hr> </blockquote>100% agree, bring back twisting.  Was one of the reasons I played a bard in eqlive, because it took skill/experience to twist.<hr></blockquote>One thing at a time in my opinion.  Just geting our buffs/debuffs to scale properly is a major step in it self.  Its obvious bards are being ignored.</div>

[Krooner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KazzySoJazzy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote:<BR> <DIV>Troubs:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cast all songs while moving</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AoE Mez that mezzes each tick, and makes you have to twist the song to cast anything else aswell. Continous drains power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snare that snares each tick, lasts 12secs so you can afford one to resist, and drains power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Less interuptable charm, longer duration, less re-use time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dirge:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AoE Fear, same as the aoe mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snare same as above</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cast songs while moving</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bring Back Twisting.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>100% agree, bring back twisting.  Was one of the reasons I played a bard in eqlive, because it took skill/experience to twist.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>One thing at a time in my opinion.  Just geting our buffs/debuffs to scale properly is a major step in it self.  Its obvious bards are being ignored.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Debuffs as well as  scale our group buffs and resists appropiately.  Currently were being outpaced by gear and other classes spells.  There is no reason to bump someones stats to 700.  We need some more options.  I honeslty dont think they will ever bring twisting back in.  But they may as they have done with everything else bring it back in a "Twisted" fashion.</P> <P>I really dont see any problem with giving us 4 or 5 arts like CoB that are on 1 min recast timers are 15 sec or so in duration and really bump a groups skills, resists, regen and such up.  Give us some flavor again.<BR></P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Lordviperscorpian wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> KazzySoJazzy wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Reptilianboy wrote: <div>Troubs:</div> <div> </div> <div>Cast all songs while moving</div> <div> </div> <div>AoE Mez that mezzes each tick, and makes you have to twist the song to cast anything else aswell. Continous drains power.</div> <div> </div> <div>Snare that snares each tick, lasts 12secs so you can afford one to resist, and drains power.</div> <div> </div> <div>Less interuptable charm, longer duration, less re-use time.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Dirge:</div> <div> </div> <div>AoE Fear, same as the aoe mez.</div> <div> </div> <div>Snare same as above</div> <div> </div> <div>Cast songs while moving</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Bring Back Twisting.</div> <hr> </blockquote>100% agree, bring back twisting.  Was one of the reasons I played a bard in eqlive, because it took skill/experience to twist. <hr> </blockquote>One thing at a time in my opinion.  Just geting our buffs/debuffs to scale properly is a major step in it self.  Its obvious bards are being ignored.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Debuffs as well as  scale our group buffs and resists appropiately.  Currently were being outpaced by gear and other classes spells.  There is no reason to bump someones stats to 700.  We need some more options.  I honeslty dont think they will ever bring twisting back in.  But they may as they have done with everything else bring it back in a "Twisted" fashion.</p> <p>I really dont see any problem with giving us 4 or 5 arts like CoB that are on 1 min recast timers are 15 sec or so in duration and really bump a groups skills, resists, regen and such up.  Give us some flavor again.</p><hr></blockquote>I like that idea alot.  Although i disagree with you that are buffs and debuffs scale appropriately.  Going from 16% DPS at level 14 to a max of 26% at 69 is terrible.  Other classes can increase DPS double we can.  Everywhere you look in the bards asrinal you see it, AA's are no exception...look at Allegro, its a prime example.But yes i do agree we need more spell like CoB in our arsenal.  I think its time for a change and SoE needs to get with the program.  Oh and for god sakes if they do ever  decide to give us those type of buffs MAKE THEM CASTABLE ON THE MOVE.  Why we cant cast CoB on the run after all the nerfs it has taken baffles me.  </div><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class=date_text>09-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:04 AM</span>

[Krooner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>I like that idea alot.  Although i disagree with you that are buffs and debuffs scale appropriately.  Going from 16% DPS at level 14 to a max of 26% at 69 is terrible.  Other classes can increase DPS double we can.  Everywhere you look in the bards asrinal you see it, AA's are no exception...look at Allegro, its a prime example.<BR><BR>But yes i do agree we need more spell like CoB in our arsenal.  I think its time for a change and SoE needs to get with the program.  Oh and for god sakes if they do ever  decide to give us those type of buffs MAKE THEM CASTABLE ON THE MOVE.  Why we cant cast CoB on the run after all the nerfs it has taken baffles me.  <BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <SPAN class=date_text>09-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:04 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah I probably didnt phrase that clearly enough.  What I mean to say is that our buffs and debuffs are scaled against other classes debuffs appropriatly given our level of utility.  <STRONG>I have to whole  heartedly agree they are not upgraded enough</STRONG>.  I mean come on Devs.  If you feel is nessisary to upgrade a spell only 1% from Adept 3 to master one.  Or even just 3% from Adept 1 to master 1 because you fear it might prove overpoweing if upgraded more.  THEN add some secondary effects to the art.  Such as our Riannas line.  Why make it just 3% diff or less for master one.  Add something in there like % chance to double attack.  If you have to make it low like 2% but at least thats something.</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class=date_text>09-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:43 AM</span>

[Qwestionator]

the "Bellow" series for troubadors needs to be looked at as far as the % to stun/knockback the target - From my experience bards are about consistency and i dont see how a master 1 t7 spell should have a 20% chance to do something, should be at least like 50% if not more. <div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Qwestionator wrote:the "Bellow" series for troubadors needs to be looked at as far as the % to stun/knockback the target - From my experience bards are about consistency and i dont see how a master 1 t7 spell should have a 20% chance to do something, should be at least like 50% if not more. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yea dirges have the same spell under a different name.  Imagine that?  Creativity ftw.  I also have the master for it and it gets resisted as if i had the app 1.  Its a sad sad spell in the bards arsenal.  Ive always said it should be revamped to some kind of 15min ability that lets us increase DPS dramatically.  Kind of like the avater spell in EQ1.  But the chances of them acually changing anything at this point for us is slimm to none.  They have other things to work on...like making us horrible subclass AA's for EoF.CAnt wait to see what kind of garbage they bestow apon us.</div>

[Lynadianya Zeran]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Qwestionator wrote:<BR>the "Bellow" series for troubadors needs to be looked at as far as the % to stun/knockback the target - From my experience bards are about consistency and i dont see how a master 1 t7 spell should have a 20% chance to do something, should be at least like 50% if not more. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yea dirges have the same spell under a different name.  Imagine that?  Creativity ftw.  I also have the master for it and it gets resisted as if i had the app 1.  Its a sad sad spell in the bards arsenal.  Ive always said it should be revamped to some kind of 15min ability that lets us increase DPS dramatically.  Kind of like the avater spell in EQ1.  <BR><BR>But the chances of them acually changing anything at this point for us is slimm to none.  They have other things to work on...like making us horrible subclass AA's for EoF.<BR>CAnt wait to see what kind of garbage they bestow apon us.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I use my Bellow all the time...when I start up PoM that is.  Completely useless spell, except the fact that it procs PoM across an encounter with a very fast cast time.  I noticed the other day that a Master 1 t7 wizard group int/str buff was on par with our m1 str/stam buff.  I wish I could buff that well and throw a 15,000 point fusion also.</P> <P> </P> <P>Scalabilty is the key.  Then I'll be happy.  Give us some buffs that are significant to offset the fact that I do such terrible damage.</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lynadianya Zeran wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Lordviperscorpian wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Qwestionator wrote:the "Bellow" series for troubadors needs to be looked at as far as the % to stun/knockback the target - From my experience bards are about consistency and i dont see how a master 1 t7 spell should have a 20% chance to do something, should be at least like 50% if not more. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Yea dirges have the same spell under a different name.  Imagine that?  Creativity ftw.  I also have the master for it and it gets resisted as if i had the app 1.  Its a sad sad spell in the bards arsenal.  Ive always said it should be revamped to some kind of 15min ability that lets us increase DPS dramatically.  Kind of like the avater spell in EQ1.  But the chances of them acually changing anything at this point for us is slimm to none.  They have other things to work on...like making us horrible subclass AA's for EoF.CAnt wait to see what kind of garbage they bestow apon us.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I use my Bellow all the time...when I start up PoM that is.  Completely useless spell, except the fact that it procs PoM across an encounter with a very fast cast time.  I noticed the other day that a Master 1 t7 wizard group int/str buff was on par with our m1 str/stam buff.  I wish I could buff that well and throw a 15,000 point fusion also.</p> <p>Scalabilty is the key.  Then I'll be happy.  Give us some buffs that are significant to offset the fact that I do such terrible damage.</p><hr></blockquote>Yea thats about its only use...a mini coin toss.  Its pretty terrible.  </div>

[Qwestionator]

May this thread never be buried under a pile of rubble - Brigand debuffs / control > bards debuffs/control - that doesnt seem right to me.  We really need to have our buffs and debuffs rescaled - mainly in pvp situations but would also be nice for pve to.  Another thing i have noticed is our bladedance ( i think) line - the fact that this has a 10 min cooldown is silly - so you fight a mob and you prevent 1 aoe , maybe 2 depending on the length of the fight, this is a useful ability but honestly the cooldown needs to be reworked - if im going to invest a large number of aa into a line it would be nice for the effects to make a noticeable difference, maybe make the cooldown 2 mins? maybe 1.5? thoughts?<div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Qwestionator wrote:May this thread never be buried under a pile of rubble - Brigand debuffs / control > bards debuffs/control - that doesnt seem right to me.  We really need to have our buffs and debuffs rescaled - mainly in pvp situations but would also be nice for pve to.  Another thing i have noticed is our bladedance ( i think) line - the fact that this has a 10 min cooldown is silly - so you fight a mob and you prevent 1 aoe , maybe 2 depending on the length of the fight, this is a useful ability but honestly the cooldown needs to be reworked - if im going to invest a large number of aa into a line it would be nice for the effects to make a noticeable difference, maybe make the cooldown 2 mins? maybe 1.5? thoughts?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Like i said before who ever made the bard abilities did not put in any effort.  Bard AA's as well as buffs/debuffs need to be revamped badly.  </div>

[VericSauvari]

<DIV>looks like the devs had time to fix the female toon running animations..yet this very long thread has yet to be even acknowledged as issues with the bard class and no meaningful (or trivial) bard changes are coming for LU28/EoF so far.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>great to know the priorities of SOE</DIV><p>Message Edited by VericSauvari on <span class=date_text>09-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:11 AM</span>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>VericSauvari wrote:<div></div> <div>looks like the devs had time to fix the female toon running animations..yet this very long thread has yet to be even acknowledged as issues with the bard class and no meaningful (or trivial) bard changes are coming for LU28/EoF so far.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>great to know the priorities of SOE</div><p>Message Edited by VericSauvari on <span class="date_text">09-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:11 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yea the female run animation was definatly a game breaking issue.  </div>

[Jaimster]

<P>There's been no response because I don't think they have anything to say... I mean, until one or two of them hits level 70/50 with a Troub, how can they say much of anything?</P> <P>They seem to prefer letting threads die than responding that they have nothing to add because nothing is being worked on for something... don't let it die <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Qwestionator]

Maybe they are hoping we will all just reroll brigands or rangers and just run around and dps stuff to death, thats how this game is designed isnt it?  Who the heck needs finesse or utility lol.<div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Qwestionator wrote:Maybe they are hoping we will all just reroll brigands or rangers and just run around and dps stuff to death, thats how this game is designed isnt it?  Who the heck needs finesse or utility lol.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I say blah to that.</div>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Qwestionator wrote:<BR>Maybe they are hoping we will all just reroll brigands or rangers and just run around and dps stuff to death, thats how this game is designed isnt it?  Who the heck needs finesse or utility lol.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yeah i rerolled a brigand a while ago <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  however i would drop brig in a second if i had a reason to go back to troub.

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>VericSauvari wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Qwestionator wrote:Maybe they are hoping we will all just reroll brigands or rangers and just run around and dps stuff to death, thats how this game is designed isnt it?  Who the heck needs finesse or utility lol. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>yeah i rerolled a brigand a while ago <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  however i would drop brig in a second if i had a reason to go back to troub.<hr></blockquote>Another bard down <span>:smileysad:</span></div>

[ironman2000]

Well I don't raid much, so i'm not really huge on that whole raiding side of the game, but I seriously think if I had my charm spell lasting at least half as long as it used to with no concentration slot cost I would be just peachy for soloing and regular groups.  I mean I muttled through to level 64 with 'er, i'm not about to quit now.

[Krooner]

<P>I have done it all on my Dirge from Solo to Raid.</P> <P>These days I raid quite a bit on the top end content.  </P> <P>Ive said it before and I'll say it again.  Unless both bards get some kicking AA's in EoF were going to be a very VERY boring class.</P> <P>Its going to be a Loooooooong time till the level caps are raised as well and were looking at over 20 arts that wont be upgraded till 80+</P> <P>WE need something in between that time to stay a viable support class.  </P>

[Qwestionator]

I think we should be able to put an instrument in our ranged slot and shoot notes at people =D, that would make me happy lol.  Anyways cool AAs coming right?  yes?  please? kk - in other news my auto attack dps is the same as my CAs so that revolutionizes my raiding, i can dual box my troub and something else... yeah.<div></div>

[ironman2000]

You know, I just had a thought, maybe the main reason they agreed not to raise the level cap was really to give them selves more time to go over classes and fix whats wrong with the existing content?  (A guy needs a dream right LOL)

[Reptilianb]

<DIV>Ressits in PVP need to be fixed... it is impossible to land ONE spell even when they are mental debuffed on someone with 3k+ mental resistance... i was at the top of the rankings on my server,  a troubadour,.. and now i cannot beat (hardly) anyone with "2.5k+" resists and i'm going downnnnn.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My only hope of winning in pvp against a well played person is by my Mez landing.. how often does it land?? hardly ever now. If players are going to get immunity to mez then at least make the troub mez unresistable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let us cast Thuderous drumming spell line while running or make it veyr hard to interupt, as with charm.. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All other classes have an advantage over us in PVP... someone with high mental resists automatically beats a troub.. we have one attack that doesn't do mental dmg?? or is that bugged and it shows mental when it is infact melee when we use melee CA?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give us a 20second Stifle or something?? Something that puts us on parr with other class ffs... and also give us our 8minute charm back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A lvl 70 Troub on PVP</DIV>

[Reptilianb]

<P>Requiem of reflection should have a 8% chance of just reflecing a spell no matter what,,, not.. 10% chance of activating, then on the next spell it will reflect.</P> <P>Also note..</P> <P>A Beserker can Regen HP for the gorup more than a Troub can? as can other classes. </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Reptilianboy on <span class=date_text>09-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:06 AM</span>

[Qwestionator]

<div></div>From what i have seen on the pvp server the biggest problem is 1)  Resists make debuffs/utility much less practical then another class who does nothing but pound out damage (we have to waste 10/12 seconds spamming debuffs till they stick).  2) Our buffs need to not be useless - the only buffs i can think of that really make a differencein PvP are our self buff and avoidance - the sta/str, regens etc dont really do anything - i do use dove song but i still get resisted alot so im not even sure this helps lol.  Would be nice to have some kind of offensive procs besides aria (which is useless because it breaks mez the one time it procs in a fight) - maybe something like the dirge offensive procs.  RoR isnt all that bad except that it puts you in combat so it becomes useless in pvp unless... well its useless.  Also i dont understand why the dirge parry song gives 38 to parry and troub defense song gives 25 defense, doesnt make any sense to me.  Also if troubs are supposed to buff casters why does raxxyls give str/sta?  2 of the most useless stats for both troubs and clothies.  EDIT:  Forgot to mention that our resist songs either need to be combined or the amount needs to be increased - right now they are both sub par, Would also be nice if our de agro song had more than a 5% chance to drop target on damage seeing as swashies can easily get a hat with a 20% proc that is the same thing - on another note bards dont even get a vaults hat so this does not make ANY sense to me, maybe someone can explain how this is balanced?  <div></div><p>Message Edited by Qwestionator on <span class=date_text>09-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:15 AM</span>

[Lordviperscorpian]

WE NEED MORE BUFFS LIKE COCAPHANY OF BLADES AND JESTERS CAP.I made it nice and big so they will know what to do.  <div></div>

[Qwestionator]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lordviperscorpian wrote:WE NEED MORE BUFFS LIKE COCAPHANY OF BLADES AND JESTERS CAP.I made it nice and big so they will know what to do.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>Isnt that the strategy you tried on me in QH last night? ZINGAnyways yes... big letters - plz fix k?  !</div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<blockquote><hr>Qwestionator wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Lordviperscorpian wrote:WE NEED MORE BUFFS LIKE COCAPHANY OF BLADES AND JESTERS CAP.I made it nice and big so they will know what to do.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>Isnt that the strategy you tried on me in QH last night? ZINGAnyways yes... big letters - plz fix k?  !</div><hr></blockquote>Do not fear the capslock button, it is your friend.<div></div>

[Krooner]

<DIV>I had an idea for a new art.  Just brainstorming but it sounded cool.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>War chant:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>duration 36 seconds.</DIV> <DIV>recast    5 minutes</DIV> <DIV>group AE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As the song progresses the goups COMBAT ARTS will do more damage.  Casts Creshendo upon termination</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1-10 sec        11% increase</DIV> <DIV>11-20 sec      22%</DIV> <DIV>21-30 sec      33%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Creshendo : increases attack speed of group 50% for 6 seconds</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because its not a DPS mod but an arts mod it would compliment Death march and similar arts very nicely when your DPS capped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It could even be tailored for each subclass.</DIV> <DIV>Melee arts for Dirges and Caster arts for Troubs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class=date_text>09-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[Reptilianb]

<P>we need more buffs that allow us to solo more easily... how hard is it to solo the bixie?? it takes me about 15minutes, assuming an enemy pvp doesn't come and jump me.</P> <P> </P> <P>How about some more solo obuffs that puts us on parr with other classes... so.. we can either buff the whole group and not gain much for ourselves... or buff our selves and make ourselves harder. one example.. is charm a mob for 8+minutes and use 1 or 2 conc slots... or increase avoidance by 20%... or increase mitigation... or slow the targets combat abilities by 60%, or make opponents controls back to front, </P> <P>or a special abiltiy that we can ony use once every 15mins like, "the next attack/spell will be reflected onto the opponent"...... </P> <P>come on.. i cannot hold out any longer.</P> <P>70 Troub Darathar</P>

[Qwestionator]

Would be nice if we got a song that was like... If a group member would take more than 15% of his/her max hp in damage he/she only takes 15% instead - affects non fighters only.  Or something along this line - Troubs/Dirges need a better way to prevent themselves from getting damaged/controlled - maybe songs that make immune to stun or something like that.  Would also like to see some powerful debuffs that maybe take a conc slot - something like - Dazes Target - 3 conc , Targets spells/CAs take x% longer to cast, Stuff like that.<div></div>

[Qwestionator]

Would be nice to know if there are any plans for any major bard changes, or any thoughts that devs have on the class?  Its been like, really  quiet - could at least keep us kinda informed as to the status of the class - any  thoughts about changes?  minor changes?  no changes?  Anything at all?  Just would like to get some responses on the numerous bard threads to at least provide some sort of acknowledgement of the concerns posted.<div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Qwestionator wrote:Would be nice to know if there are any plans for any major bard changes, or any thoughts that devs have on the class?  Its been like, really  quiet - could at least keep us kinda informed as to the status of the class - any  thoughts about changes?  minor changes?  no changes?  Anything at all?  Just would like to get some responses on the numerous bard threads to at least provide some sort of acknowledgement of the concerns posted.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree, just a dev stoping by saying "hey well look into it" would be nice.Id accept that.</div>

[Qwestionator]

Omgz you have 1234 posts, thats neat! but you cant post a response because that will mess it up <span>:smileysad:</span> .  Anyways yeah *taps microphone* is this thing on?  testing?<div></div>

[Lornick]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warbird1 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I had an idea for a new art.  Just brainstorming but it sounded cool.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>War chant:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>duration 36 seconds.</DIV> <DIV>recast    5 minutes</DIV> <DIV>group AE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As the song progresses the goups COMBAT ARTS will do more damage.  Casts Creshendo upon termination</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1-10 sec        11% increase</DIV> <DIV>11-20 sec      22%</DIV> <DIV>21-30 sec      33%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Creshendo : increases attack speed of group 50% for 6 seconds</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because its not a DPS mod but an arts mod it would compliment Death march and similar arts very nicely when your DPS capped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It could even be tailored for each subclass.</DIV> <DIV>Melee arts for Dirges and Caster arts for Troubs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>There have been alot of stupid things said in this thread, but this is a pretty nifty idea for a future spell.  All the technical stuff would definately need some tuning, but I like the idea alot.<BR>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Qwestionator wrote:<BR>Would be nice to know if there are any plans for any major bard changes, or any thoughts that devs have on the class?  Its been like, really  quiet - could at least keep us kinda informed as to the status of the class - any  thoughts about changes?  minor changes?  no changes?  Anything at all?  Just would like to get some responses on the numerous bard threads to at least provide some sort of acknowledgement of the concerns posted.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree, just a dev stoping by saying "hey well look into it" would be nice.<BR><BR>Id accept that.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>your kidding right? they have more important things like female running animations and removing 'broken' tradeskill instances then a simple 4 word response in acknowledgment of a thread that is now SEVEN pages long and almost 2 MONTHS ongoing.</P>

[Reptilianb]

<DIV>its been going on a lot longer mate.... the previous thread was locked</DIV>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote:<BR> <DIV>its been going on a lot longer mate.... the previous thread was locked</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>sorry my memory must be shot, i usually track these by the red name responses and if no red is in it i tend to forget them...if its not important for them its not important for me yaknow.

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>VericSauvari wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Reptilianboy wrote: <div>its been going on a lot longer mate.... the previous thread was locked</div> <hr> </blockquote>sorry my memory must be shot, i usually track these by the red name responses and if no red is in it i tend to forget them...if its not important for them its not important for me yaknow.<hr></blockquote>Yea i look at the dev tracker everyday hoping that i might see this post up there.  <3</div>

[munos]

<P>Self buff that uses no con slot would be great</P> <P>Instant fear or 1 sec or less cast time. I use fear for crowd control but it breaks to easy I think</P> <P>I would take AE fear same 1 sec or less cast time</P> <P>Casting on the run would be great</P> <P>Debuffs that dont drain over time would be really nice. Debuffs drain to fast I think</P> <P>Oh yes why in the hell do other scouts have offensive and defensive stance? They are scouts not tanks</P> <P>I wouldnt mind having a stance as well if they have it.</P> <P>Please Santa I've been a good :; Dirge or as good as a Dirge can be <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Krooner]

<DIV>One other thing I would like to see is an art that scales to the encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Normal mob.  AE fear and slow or something similar and a interupt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heroic Mob.   AE slow and interupt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EPIC mob.  Interupt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NO enchanters an interupt is not CC.  Mezz, Daze, Stun, Charm are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lornick]

<P>I wish you people would shut up about AE fear.  That's a horrible idea.  I barely use the single target fear as it is.  Some of the things you guys are complaining about, I would advise reconsidering.  For instance, all this whining about improper scaling for buffs and debuffs.  It's fortunate for us that the devs aren't as [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] as the ones in EQ1 and take balance into consideration.  (Seriously, complete heal and 75% attack slow... that's not overpowered...)  The downside of that is percentage based abilities have to be very carefully monitored.  Is it right that a lvl 44 master 1 spell is better then a lvl 58 adept 3?  No.  But if this ability is "fixed" then do you honestly think the solution SOE will take is to increase the lvl 58 versions debuff by 5%?  </P> <P>Cause to me the more obvious solution is to take all these percentage skills people are complaining about and "normalizing" them.  IE, we all get the exact same skill and the power costs increase as we level up.  There really isn't any point to teir progression with percentage based skills when you think about it.  They work just as good at low levels as they do at high levels.  Just like when they got rid of stealth abilities teir progression.  It would make game balance much easier to achieve.  So the question you need to ask yourself is do you want to roll the dice to see if the revamped one is better then your current one?  Cause odds are it wouldn't be...</P>

[Danter]

<P>From a Dirge point of view:</P> <P>1.)  Make a lot of our group buffs worth using.</P> <P>-Dissonant Boon is going to need major help after the combat skills cap is increased.  It should be +50 at M1 at the very least.</P> <P>-Tomb's Calm needs a damage increase or proc % increase.</P> <P>-Harl's Awakening Strain needs a slight increase due to the stat caps rising.</P> <P>-Death Barrier needs an increase due to the stat caps rising or needs its concentration slot requirement removed.</P> <P> </P> <P>2.)  Make all songs castable while moving.</P> <P>-This includes AAs, debuffs, fear, rez, and buffs including Cacophony of Blades.</P> <P> </P> <P>3.)  Fix scaling of debuffs and buffs.</P> <P>-Rianas, Boon, Daros lines need to be worth upgrading from the previous tier's master version.</P> <P>-Scale down power over time costs considerably on debuffs.</P> <P> </P> <P>These are the major issues I see concerning the Dirge class.  With the stat caps being raised, many of our buffs that are not effective at the moment will become severly crippled. </P> <P> </P> <P>-Kalll, 70 Dirge of Impulse on Mistmoore</P>

[Reptilianb]

<DIV>hmmm.. well i don't play a dirge.. but i think AoE fear would be an AWESOME spell... </DIV>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote:<BR> <DIV>hmmm.. well i don't play a dirge.. but i think AoE fear would be an AWESOME spell... </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>whats of even more concern..we have another stat cap to chase now...powerpool increase by 25% be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing damned. we have to work on STR, AGI and INT now to 1050 to break cap.</P> <P> </P> <P>i hope we get gear that has at least 50 across next expansion</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Danterus wrote:<div></div> <p>From a Dirge point of view:</p> <p>1.)  Make a lot of our group buffs worth using.</p> <p>-Dissonant Boon is going to need major help after the combat skills cap is increased.  It should be +50 at M1 at the very least.</p> <p>-Tomb's Calm needs a damage increase or proc % increase.</p> <p>-Harl's Awakening Strain needs a slight increase due to the stat caps rising.</p> <p>-Death Barrier needs an increase due to the stat caps rising or needs its concentration slot requirement removed.</p> <p>2.) <b> </b>Make all songs castable while moving.</p> <p>-This includes AAs, debuffs, fear, rez, and buffs including Cacophony of Blades.</p> <p>3.)  Fix scaling of debuffs and buffs.</p> <p>-Rianas, Boon, Daros lines need to be worth upgrading from the previous tier's master version.</p> <p>-Scale down power over time costs considerably on debuffs.</p> <p>These are the major issues I see concerning the Dirge class.  With the stat caps being raised, many of our buffs that are not effective at the moment will become severly crippled. </p> <p>-Kalll, 70 Dirge of Impulse on Mistmoore</p><hr>I agree with this 110%.  </blockquote></div>

[Littlejo]

Oh great a Power DEVsWe know you are busy, but If you would be so kind as to give Bards some imput to this discussion it would be greatly appreciated.Thank you<div></div>

[ironman2000]

LOL they are too busy just now making our buffs even more worthless with the new level cap increase and mitigation change curves....

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>ironman2000 wrote:<div></div>LOL they are too busy just now making our buffs even more worthless with the new level cap increase and mitigation change curves....<hr></blockquote>Bards better be recieving an update to go along with this change or i will be really upset...  </div>

[Chefren]

<div><blockquote><hr>ironman2000 wrote:<div></div>LOL they are too busy just now making our buffs even more worthless with the new level cap increase and mitigation change curves....<hr></blockquote>With people not reaching the stat and skill caps as easily anymore, it seems to me that stat and skill buffs would actually become more useful instead of less useful. </div>

[TalanRM]

<P>Will the increase in skill and haste/ DPS caps present the opportunity to make certain spells - e.g. Riana's - scale better with level increases? Hopefully, the increased will enable a proper feeling of spell progression.</P> <P>Similarly, will our linear debuffs - e.g. Discante - require re-adjusting if they are to be of use on high-end encounters?</P>

[Reptilianb]

<DIV>and in pvp....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when a player has all my troub debuffs on them, they should be crippled, or at least as hard as me...</DIV>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote:<BR> <DIV>and in pvp....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when a player has all my troub debuffs on them, they should be crippled, or at least as hard as me...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>why should our debuffs cripple someone? we are not big debuffers more buffers.</P> <P>i fail to see why we should be pvp gods like everyone thinks we should be and frankly im annoyed by all this pvp oriented problems (stat cap increase) bleeding into pve.</P>

[Draggoz]

<DIV>I think we all need to come to the realization that no matter what we discuss on the forums the Devs will always keep Bards behind the list of things they need to do.  In other words "They don't care".  I accept this and deal with it by doing 1k+ dps on a raid as my way of saying F the man.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But to go with the thread here is what I would like to see:</DIV> <DIV>-Cast everything while running</DIV> <DIV>-Make our self buff a proc on successful attack even if it only 10% or so instead of the reactive proc.</DIV> <DIV>-Upgrade Selo's</DIV> <DIV>-Increased movement rate while stealthed. <FONT color=#ff0000>Edit:  Add See Stealth/Invis to it as well, like other scouts.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>-Hyrans: Make it raid wide again. With a hate transfer component would be nice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Draggoz The'Outlaw 70th Kerra Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Braggen Destroyerof'Gnomes 70 Gnome Zerker</DIV> <DIV>Novatar 52 Kerra Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>Officer  of Nocturnal Souls of Crushbone</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Novatar on <SPAN class=date_text>10-02-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:05 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Novatar on <span class=date_text>10-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:19 AM</span>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Novatar wrote:<div></div> <div>I think we all need to come to the realization that no matter what we discuss on the forums the Devs will always keep Bards behind the list of things they need to do.  In other words "They don't care".  I accept this and deal with it by doing 1k+ dps on a raid as my way of saying F the man.</div> <div> </div> <div>But to go with the thread here is what I would like to see:</div> <div>-Cast everything while running</div> <div>-Make our self buff a proc on successful attack even if it only 10% or so instead of the reactive proc.</div> <div>-Upgrade Selo's</div> <div>-Increased movement rate while stealthed.</div> <div>-Hyrans: Make it raid wide again. With a hate transfer component would be nice.</div> <div> </div> <div>Draggoz The'Outlaw 70th Kerra Dirge</div> <div>Braggen Destroyerof'Gnomes 70 Gnome Zerker</div> <div>Novatar 52 Kerra Bruiser</div> <div>Officer  of Nocturnal Souls of Crushbone</div><p>Message Edited by Novatar on <span class="date_text">10-02-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:05 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yea whats the deal with our self stealth anyway?  When you examine it, it clearly states that we get to MOVE AT AN INCREASED RATE while stealthed.  But it does nothing of the sort.  Your list seems about right. We should also get a bit more incombat run speed at well.  We are bards after all...</div>

[Reptilianb]

<DIV>I'd be happy with a 15minute recast charm.... charms mob for 10minutes.... and in pvp for 45seconds... at least for a start.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our charm in pvp is useless due to:</DIV> <DIV>1. it lasting 14seconsd if u are very very very very lucky... normaly 3seconds</DIV> <DIV>2. You cannot command your target to attack so it is even less useful.</DIV> <DIV>3. It resists 95% of the time.</DIV> <DIV>4. If somebody breathes on you, it will interupt.</DIV> <DIV>5. It takes to long to cast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Draggoz]

<DIV>You don't want to be a Bard, You seem to be worried about your ability to charm something.  Roll a coercer.</DIV>

[ironman2000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Novatar wrote:<BR> <DIV>You don't want to be a Bard, You seem to be worried about your ability to charm something.  Roll a coercer.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The way bards are set up now, Charm and Mezz need to be used when you fight a group solo and sometimes in situations where someone makes a crappy pull in a group too, so NO its not just coercers and illusionist that use them.  Don't tell me how to play one and I won't tell you how to play one either.  What the poster you commented on was saying is they took us from having a charm that lasted several minutes and made it into a 14 second mezz and called it a charm, and that was not right, they could have at least cut it down by a minute or two and left it as a workable charm to help us with survivability in a long encounter with a group of creatures when trying to solo or removed it entirely and given  us a lesser group mezz or something more funtional instead of just breaking it for us.

[Draggoz]

<DIV> <HR> ironman2000 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Don't tell me how to play one and I won't tell you how to play one either.</DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV> <P>Never told you how to play.  Just seems to me that 90% of the Troubadors posting on this thread are worried more about there Charm/Mez.  The fact of the matter is simple it was finally brought into line with Dirge fear.</P>

[MalicorDraven]

<DIV>__________________</DIV> <DIV>Novatar wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>Never told you how to play.  Just seems to me that 90% of the Troubadors posting on this thread are worried more about there Charm/Mez.  The fact of the matter is simple it was finally brought into line with Dirge fear.</P> <P>__________________</P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00><STRONG>While true.  One small point.  You could argue the value of a charm versus a fear.</STRONG></FONT></P></DIV>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>MalicorDraven wrote:<div>__________________</div> <div>Novatar wrote:</div> <div> </div> <div> <p>Never told you how to play.  Just seems to me that 90% of the Troubadors posting on this thread are worried more about there Charm/Mez.  The fact of the matter is simple it was finally brought into line with Dirge fear.</p> <p>__________________</p> <p><font color="#ffcc00"><strong>While true.  One small point.  You could argue the value of a charm versus a fear.</strong></font></p></div><hr></blockquote>Charm > fear in PvE. Fear just causes more social aggro.Charm > fear in PvP. Fear can be nullifyed by a click of a potion, charm cannot.  Argument over.</div>

[MalicorDraven]

^^ what potions are you using? Oh! I forgot your the one doing the fearing. <EM> Ie. potions can not be used while moving.</EM>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MalicorDraven wrote:<BR> <DIV>__________________</DIV> <DIV>Novatar wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>Never told you how to play.  Just seems to me that 90% of the Troubadors posting on this thread are worried more about there Charm/Mez.  The fact of the matter is simple it was finally brought into line with Dirge fear.</P> <P>__________________</P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00><STRONG>While true.  One small point.  You could argue the value of a charm versus a fear.</STRONG></FONT></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Charm > fear in PvE. Fear just causes more social aggro.<BR><BR>Charm > fear in PvP. Fear can be nullifyed by a click of a potion, charm cannot.  <BR><BR>Argument over.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>not everyone is on the pvp server</P> <P>i wish people would make a clear distinction when they are calling for improvments between the pvp and pve. majority of the pvp bards are calling to be teh ubah l33tsauce class that apparently eq1 bards were, those type of bards are not practical in pvp or in pve.  lordviper was very clear that there is a flaw in the logic where fear can be removed via potion in pvp while charm cannot be removed.</P> <P>pardon my generalization but as a side note pvpers are really starting to [Removed for Content] me off and i can see why other classes are telling us to sit down and shut up.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>just annoyed in general, bard and soe wise.</P>

[MalicorDraven]

<P>Veric your just [Removed for Content] that pvp has highlighted and made more apparent any (if any) inadequacies in the bard class. </P> <P> Any attention they draw to the class, is a good thing (i hope).  After all, it has been said that Blackguard rolled a trouby to check out what the fuss is all about.</P><p>Message Edited by MalicorDraven on <span class=date_text>10-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:05 PM</span>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MalicorDraven wrote:<BR> <P>After all, it has been said that Blackguard rolled a trouby to check out what the fuss is all about.</P> <P>Message Edited by MalicorDraven on <SPAN class=date_text>10-02-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:05 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Blackguard left didn't he?  So somehow I doubt that that will help us any...<BR>

[Krooner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MalicorDraven wrote:<BR> <P>Veric your just [Removed for Content] that pvp has highlighted and made more apparent any (if any) inadequacies in the bard class. </P> <P> Any attention they draw to the class, is a good thing (i hope).  After all, it has been said that Blackguard rolled a trouby to check out what the fuss is all about.</P> <P>Message Edited by MalicorDraven on <SPAN class=date_text>10-02-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:05 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The focus of a PVP bard vs a PVE bard are two completely different things and should never ever be compaired to each other.  Veris very clearny states that some pleayers just want all the utility and DPS. ie they want to be uber leet.  I really dont care what changes they make for PVP.  Give you poisons for all I care.  But dont turn the PVE bard into some gimped up preadator.  Our utility needs to keep pace with new items and skills of other classes to keep us desireable and handy.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class=date_text>10-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:39 PM</span>

[ironman2000]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Novatar wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> ironman2000 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Don't tell me how to play one and I won't tell you how to play one either.</DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV> <P>Never told you how to play.  Just seems to me that 90% of the Troubadors posting on this thread are worried more about there Charm/Mez.  The fact of the matter is simple it was finally brought into line with Dirge fear.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm talking about PVE, I couldn't give a rats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about PVP and so what, they got fear and we got a charm that was nerfed down and acts like a cheap mez, they got a rez, don't see me complaining cause they do.  I wasn't complaining about what other people have, i'm complaining about what they DID DO to my class that changed MY PLAYSTYLE.  They took a 7 minute charm and NERFED IT to hell.  I'm not saying anything about some of the things I could complain about Dirges, i'm simply stating what they did to my troub specifically, that I see as an issue.  Let them take and give dirges a fear root combo, thats fine by me, just give me back the functionality of my Charm song and i'm not talking about PVP, keep that in mind, and i'm not asking to have our DPS pumped up to anything, i'm fine with my DPS if I can control the frakkin' mobs while I kill em so I don't get overwhelmed by numbers and i'm not talking about heroic groups of mobs, i'm talking about normal groups overwhelming me with numbers and I can't control enough of them to keep me in the fight.<p>Message Edited by ironman2000 on <span class=date_text>10-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:18 PM</span>

[Goldenflig]

<DIV>/looks at thread</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/decides to lighten it up (while keeping it bumped)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/ponders</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/inserts tongue firmly in cheek</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/posts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't understand all these complaints about troubies not having utility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have <U><EM>plenty</EM></U> of utility!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) I'm useful for stealthing around high level mobs in order to harvest rares for big $$$</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) I'm great at providing run speed for low level toons starting out in Antonica needing to slam through Bootstrutter's for quick and easy  exp!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) I'm awesome running on my second comp while I play my main in guild/raid groups</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/ducks and runs</DIV>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>MalicorDraven wrote:<div></div>^^ what potions are you using? Oh! I forgot your the one doing the fearing. <em> Ie. <b>potions can not be used while moving.</b></em><hr></blockquote>Wrong.  If feared in pvp you can still click the insta cast "Freedom of Action" potions.  </div>

[Chefren]

<div><blockquote><hr>Novatar wrote:<div></div> <div></div><div>-Cast everything while running</div> <hr></blockquote>They removed most kiting tools in lu13 for a reason. I agree that all our buffs should be castable while moving and maybe all our debuffs as well. Just don't expect us to ever be able to cast more damage spells while moving than what we currently can.</div>

[Qwestionator]

<div></div>Mez while moving = win... /cry .   Anyways i dont quite understand why all our buffs except 2 and a few AA ones ( RoR, Alins Serene, Harbingers, Allegro come to mind) can be cast on the run - its really annoying to cast all buffs then have to stop and cast 3/4 buffs that can get interrupted - specially in a situation where speed is important.  Bards need more survivability in PvP when it comes to smaller fights where we are taking alot of damage ( 1v1 2v2 or when solo pveing) - Out of all the scouts bards take far more damage- kinda silly if we are supposed to stay alive and keep the group buffed ><, we dont have burst dps that other scouts have to make up for the lower offensive stance mit/avoid.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Qwestionator on <span class=date_text>10-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:20 AM</span>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Qwestionator wrote:<div></div>Mez while moving = win... /cry .   Anyways i dont quite understand why all our buffs except 2 and a few AA ones ( RoR, Alins Serene, Harbingers, Allegro come to mind) can be cast on the run - its really annoying to cast all buffs then have to stop and cast 3/4 buffs that can get interrupted - specially in a situation where speed is important.  Bards need more survivability in PvP when it comes to smaller fights where we are taking alot of damage ( 1v1 2v2 or when solo pveing) - Out of all the scouts bards take far more damage- kinda silly if we are supposed to stay alive and keep the group buffed ><, we dont have burst dps that other scouts have to make up for the lower offensive stance mit/avoid.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Qwestionator on <span class="date_text">10-04-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:20 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Sir your a troubador.  You will always suck.  Now lets get back to what matters, buff dirge prz <span>:smileytongue:</span></div>

[Goldenflig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Qwestionator wrote:<BR> Mez while moving = win... /cry .   Anyways i dont quite understand why all our buffs except 2 and a few AA ones ( RoR, Alins Serene, Harbingers, Allegro come to mind) can be cast on the run - its really annoying to cast all buffs then have to stop and cast 3/4 buffs that can get interrupted - specially in a situation where speed is important.  Bards need more survivability in PvP when it comes to smaller fights where we are taking alot of damage ( 1v1 2v2 or when solo pveing) - Out of all the scouts bards take far more damage- kinda silly if we are supposed to stay alive and keep the group buffed ><, we dont have burst dps that other scouts have to make up for the lower offensive stance mit/avoid.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Qwestionator on <SPAN class=date_text>10-04-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:20 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sir your a troubador.  You will always suck.  Now lets get back to what matters, buff dirge prz <SPAN>:smileytongue:</SPAN><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Dem's fighting words!  Put up your instruments..... oh ... wait...<BR></P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Goldenflight wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Lordviperscorpian wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Qwestionator wrote: <div></div>Mez while moving = win... /cry .   Anyways i dont quite understand why all our buffs except 2 and a few AA ones ( RoR, Alins Serene, Harbingers, Allegro come to mind) can be cast on the run - its really annoying to cast all buffs then have to stop and cast 3/4 buffs that can get interrupted - specially in a situation where speed is important.  Bards need more survivability in PvP when it comes to smaller fights where we are taking alot of damage ( 1v1 2v2 or when solo pveing) - Out of all the scouts bards take far more damage- kinda silly if we are supposed to stay alive and keep the group buffed ><, we dont have burst dps that other scouts have to make up for the lower offensive stance mit/avoid. <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Qwestionator on <span class="date_text">10-04-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:20 AM</span></p> <hr> </blockquote>Sir your a troubador.  You will always suck.  Now lets get back to what matters, buff dirge prz <span>:smileytongue:</span></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Dem's fighting words!  Put up your instruments..... oh ... wait...</p><hr></blockquote><span>:smileysad:  I had almost forgotten we dont even get instruments.  /cry</span></div>

[Reptilianb]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> VericSauvari wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote:<BR> <DIV>and in pvp....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when a player has all my troub debuffs on them, they should be crippled, or at least as hard as me...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>why should our debuffs cripple someone? we are not big debuffers more buffers.</P> <P>i fail to see why we should be pvp gods like everyone thinks we should be and frankly im annoyed by all this pvp oriented problems (stat cap increase) bleeding into pve.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well i'm the OP.. and its all about PVP to me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But PVE upgrading troubs is also a must... as i said.. how long does it take you to solo the bixe in TT? 15mins+?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When a player (brigand?) in my eyes has ALL my debuffs on them, they should be at the MOST as powerful as me, if not less powerful..... when i have Dispatch on me (-2000 mit) do i stand much of a chance, apart from mez and hope the 1/10 chance of it sticking will work, assuming i'm not stunned?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If i'm using master mez, + Dove Song, subjugation equipment... i'd expect it to stick more than  1/2 the time at least.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If i can't disable melee classes, being a troub i should be able to disbale casters being caster based at least... </DIV> <DIV>of subject--- casters/healers arn't as easy to take down for us as people might expect.. with there high resists and our poor melee skills.... hmm.. 1 MELEE dmging attack... all the rest do mental dmg........</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Acolos - 70 Troub Darathar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Reptilianboy on <span class=date_text>10-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:19 AM</span>

[smtj]

<P>Another Pvp Troub tired of being [Removed for Content].</P> <P>Please fix our chats, half do little and/or are never used, tired of using the same 5 chats</P> <P>Check our dps, we should not be what the other scouts are but heck im being outdamaged by pallys and illusionist</P> <P> </P> <P>We need some help soe</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[VericSauvari]

<div><blockquote><hr>Reptilianboy wrote:<div></div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> VericSauvari wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Reptilianboy wrote: <div>and in pvp....</div> <div> </div> <div>when a player has all my troub debuffs on them, they should be crippled, or at least as hard as me...</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>why should our debuffs cripple someone? we are not big debuffers more buffers.</p> <p>i fail to see why we should be pvp gods like everyone thinks we should be and frankly im annoyed by all this pvp oriented problems (stat cap increase) bleeding into pve.</p> <hr> </blockquote></div><div> </div> <div>When a player (brigand?) in my eyes has <b>ALL my debuffs on them</b>, they should be at the MOST as powerful as me, if not less powerful..... when i have Dispatch on me (-2000 mit) do i stand much of a chance, apart from mez and hope the 1/10 chance of it sticking will work, assuming i'm not stunned?</div> <div> </div> <hr></blockquote>that part bothers me..again how do you expect troubadors, who don't have a lot of direct impact debuffs,  to CRIPPLE or completely [Removed for Content] another class in pvp.again, pvp troubs bring up the same points almost every time, expecting uber buffs, uber dps, uber debuffs and uber utility.brigands are a DEBUFF class, troubadors are a BUFF class...why should we expect our limited debuffing abilities bring everyone to their knees. troubadors buff casters primarily therefor we do not have much if any impact on mit regardless. face it... we are not meant to pwnzor teh brigs in tha f4ce.  do you want a clicky that nullifies all debuffs on you? thats what it sounds like. unvulnerability to any and all stats on you and the ability to cripple someone in pvp. if we get the jump on a brig and mez then we stand a chance, if they get the jump on us we are screwed. such is the way of things and how pvp usually works. </div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>VericSauvari wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Reptilianboy wrote:<div></div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> VericSauvari wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Reptilianboy wrote: <div>and in pvp....</div> <div> </div> <div>when a player has all my troub debuffs on them, they should be crippled, or at least as hard as me...</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>why should our debuffs cripple someone? we are not big debuffers more buffers.</p> <p>i fail to see why we should be pvp gods like everyone thinks we should be and frankly im annoyed by all this pvp oriented problems (stat cap increase) bleeding into pve.</p> <hr> </blockquote></div><div> </div> <div>When a player (brigand?) in my eyes has <b>ALL my debuffs on them</b>, they should be at the MOST as powerful as me, if not less powerful..... when i have Dispatch on me (-2000 mit) do i stand much of a chance, apart from mez and hope the 1/10 chance of it sticking will work, assuming i'm not stunned?</div> <div> </div> <hr></blockquote>that part bothers me..again how do you expect troubadors, who don't have a lot of direct impact debuffs,  to CRIPPLE or completely [Removed for Content] another class in pvp.again, pvp troubs bring up the same points almost every time, expecting uber buffs, uber dps, uber debuffs and uber utility.brigands are a DEBUFF class, troubadors are a BUFF class...why should we expect our limited debuffing abilities bring everyone to their knees. troubadors buff casters primarily therefor we do not have much if any impact on mit regardless. face it... we are not meant to pwnzor teh brigs in tha f4ce.  do you want a clicky that nullifies all debuffs on you? thats what it sounds like. unvulnerability to any and all stats on you and the ability to cripple someone in pvp. if we get the jump on a brig and mez then we stand a chance, if they get the jump on us we are screwed. such is the way of things and how pvp usually works. </div><hr></blockquote>I would have to disagree with you.  Dirges and Troubs are a buff/debuff class.  Brigands are a SINGLE TARGET debuff class.  Bards are a GROUP buff/debuff class.  I think what everyone is trying to say is that our GROUP BUFFS/DEBUFFS are not on par atm.  Which is completly 100% correct. I think you need to leave your hatred for pvp out of this thread and start geting to the issues.  We dont want or need more dps.  Were bards.  I want my bard spells to be effective.  Currently when i have my buffs up i see very little difference.  When i put my debuffs on it doesnt get much better.  The only time i see a great increase in my groups performance is when i hit CoB, with all my debuffs and buffs up.  Even then its not that great of an increase.  What were asking for is more utility to make our groups stronger, you know...the job of an acual bard?  That and maybe some instruments so i can acually say im a bard and not just a gimped scout.  Face it, you dont see alot of bards for a reason.  After level 30 the poor buff/debuff scaling, and useless buffs drive most people to quit.  Bards are long over due for a touch up.  </div>

[VericSauvari]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lordviperscorpian wrote:<div><blockquote><div><blockquote>  <div>When a player (brigand?) in my eyes has <b>ALL my debuffs on them</b>, they should be at the MOST as powerful as me, if not less powerful..... when i have Dispatch on me (-2000 mit) do i stand much of a chance, apart from mez and hope the 1/10 chance of it sticking will work, assuming i'm not stunned?</div> <div> </div> <hr></blockquote>that part bothers me..again how do you expect troubadors, who don't have a lot of direct impact debuffs,  to CRIPPLE or completely [Removed for Content] another class in pvp.again, pvp troubs bring up the same points almost every time, expecting uber buffs, uber dps, uber debuffs and uber utility.brigands are a DEBUFF class, troubadors are a BUFF class...why should we expect our limited debuffing abilities bring everyone to their knees. troubadors buff casters primarily therefor we do not have much if any impact on mit regardless. face it... we are not meant to pwnzor teh brigs in tha f4ce.  do you want a clicky that nullifies all debuffs on you? thats what it sounds like. unvulnerability to any and all stats on you and the ability to cripple someone in pvp. if we get the jump on a brig and mez then we stand a chance, if they get the jump on us we are screwed. such is the way of things and how pvp usually works. </div><hr></blockquote>I would have to disagree with you.  Dirges and Troubs are a buff/debuff class.  Brigands are a SINGLE TARGET debuff class.  Bards are a GROUP buff/debuff class.  I think what everyone is trying to say is that our GROUP BUFFS/DEBUFFS are not on par atm.  Which is completly 100% correct. I think you need to leave your hatred for pvp out of this thread and start geting to the issues.  We dont want or need more dps.  Were bards.  I want my bard spells to be effective.  Currently when i have my buffs up i see very little difference.  When i put my debuffs on it doesnt get much better.  The only time i see a great increase in my groups performance is when i hit CoB, with all my debuffs and buffs up.  Even then its not that great of an increase.  What were asking for is more utility to make our groups stronger, you know...the job of an acual bard?  That and maybe some instruments so i can acually say im a bard and not just a gimped scout.  Face it, you dont see alot of bards for a reason.  After level 30 the poor buff/debuff scaling, and useless buffs drive most people to quit.  Bards are long over due for a touch up.  </div><hr></blockquote>i have no problems with pvp at all, however i want people to make a clear distinction between pve and pvp while they are calling for obvious twinkage. personally i have never felt that troubadors are debuffers.  maybe i have battered bard syndrome however this whole thread has me bothered</div><p>Message Edited by VericSauvari on <span class=date_text>10-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:14 PM</span>

[Landiin]

What the heck do you think a bard is?Lets see, he sings/plays songs or tells tails to raise his partys spirits ( buffing) or to lower his foes spirit (debuffing). Thats what a bards job is. /shrug<div></div>

[Reptilianb]

<DIV>Well.. i'm out, nothing being done, nothing been said... see you in another mmorpg</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Acolos aka Acoloss</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Acolos 70 Troub Darathar - RIP</DIV> <DIV>MMORPGs for 9years.</DIV>

[Lordviperscorpian]

On a side note the vanguard bard is turning out to be very cool.  You acually get instruments /gasp.  You also get to compose your own songs and whatnot. Oh and they do alot of DPS!  Vanguard bard > eq2 bard.Im with the above poster if they dont make some changes soon.  <div></div>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well.. i'm out, nothing being done, nothing been said... see you in another mmorpg</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Acolos aka Acoloss</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Acolos 70 Troub Darathar - RIP</DIV> <DIV>MMORPGs for 9years.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah, I did that for a while too. Felt good to leave the game for a bit.</P> <P>To the person that said that Troubs are buffers and not debuffers, as right as you may or may not be, buffing in it's current state is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing boring. Solo? Put the same buff you always have solo, go do your mediocre DPS. Group? Caster heavy go for proc, melee heavy go haste, the other 4 buffs when I group don't change. It's sort of dull. Worst even is that at 43 the only thing other then mediocre dps I can do during a fight is a few debufs.</P> <P>Why do I play the troub? I can honnestly say that I think the class can only get better from here <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Qwestionator]

Bards are gonna get a boost in EoF right?  We have been gimped for months now i mean its only logical that we would get a buff, especially in pvp.  Maybe the whole charm nerf was a joke, they are gonna bring it back up to 7 minutes im sure.  Maybe them not posting is secret SoE code for... we actually read our forums and acknowledge the months of posts about bards.  Our class is getting looked at right? k? thx?<div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Qwestionator wrote:Bards are gonna get a boost in EoF right?  We have been gimped for months now i mean its only logical that we would get a buff, especially in pvp.  Maybe the whole charm nerf was a joke, they are gonna bring it back up to 7 minutes im sure.  Maybe them not posting is secret SoE code for... we actually read our forums and acknowledge the months of posts about bards.  Our class is getting looked at right? k? thx?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Keep dreaming.</div>

[zboim]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2>My 2c:</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>Don</FONT></SPAN><SPAN>’</SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>t allow us to move while casting everything. While mobility has always been part of being a bard, unlimited mobility is another thing entirely. It</FONT></SPAN><SPAN>’</SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>s at least one small thing to adapt to when most of what we do is ae debuffing and trying not to die so the infinity of passive buffs stay up. Try also to be logically consistent </FONT></SPAN><SPAN>–</SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=바탕> allowing us to cast Selo</FONT></SPAN><SPAN>’</SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>s while running but not Harbringer</FONT></SPAN><SPAN>’</SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>s makes no sense. Create some lore around stuff like Clara</FONT></SPAN><SPAN>’</SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>s to be quirky but let it alone to prevent us from falling asleep, and leave it at that.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>Run speed is another thing entirely. Bards should be the fastest moving characters in the game in and out of combat. I</FONT></SPAN><SPAN>’</SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>m talking about in combat movement speed and not haste. Personally, I</FONT></SPAN><SPAN>’</SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>m for bards being rather hard to hit and doing piddly damage in combat, but power gaming moves units, so what you gonna do. I'll settle for the fastest in combat movement. Out of combat, we should run at truly insane speeds. Faster than JMA was, faster than the fastest horse available. Other classes should consider it a blessing that they can achieve some approximation of bard speed with writs and plat.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2>Please God allow us to cast all of the passive aa buffs at once. Yes, we know how to make macros, but that still means it takes five hours to cast those passive buffs. One button to put up every passive aa ability simultaneously. Even better, allow buffs to predetermine combinations of buffs and cast them all at once, provided they are ae, static buffs.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>If you give us instruments (you really should, by the way), make them require skill-ups or create a new category, ideally for each category of instrument, and let ranks in each skill determine the effectiveness of the instrument</FONT></SPAN><SPAN>’</SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>s effect. DO NOT make instruments +stat or + resist items. Take the time to create interesting, useful and highly limited effects. Bladedance, Turnstrike and CoB are sexy. Limit the number of musical disciplines bards can specialize in. There should also be accordions.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2>Please let us rez and life transfer out of group. Please. Another please. Thanks.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>Please do not give us an offensive stance or a defensive stance. Instead, give us limited access to class specific items. We</FONT></SPAN><SPAN>’</SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>re bards, we know stuff, we can use them without breaking them.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2>Give us a very limited ability to de-aggro. This is not the same as a pacify: the mob will only have no agro towards the bard.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>Make dungeons and raid instances harder, with more traps and puzzles. Make the numbers have a greater bearing on combat, skill use and NPC ai, rather than making all easily overcome with only manual dexterity or exploitative positioning. Forget everything you</FONT></SPAN><SPAN>’</SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=바탕>ve released except Spirits of the Lost,<SPAN>  </SPAN>Gates , Nizara and the recent prophet quests. Mix, add new ideas. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2>Aengdoo. Product of Trauma.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=바탕 color=#ffffff size=2>Guk Factory.</FONT></SPAN></P>

[Cuz]

I think the reallity of the situation is that bards are and will be boring. The lack of dev response might be because they don't feel like saying "Sorry that's how we plan to keep bards".

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><span></span><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div></div>I think the reallity of the situation is that bards are and will be boring. The lack of dev response might be because they don't feel like saying "Sorry that's how we plan to keep bards".<hr></blockquote><span>:smileysad:</span></div>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> I think the reallity of the situation is that bards are and will be boring. The lack of dev response might be because they don't feel like saying "Sorry that's how we plan to keep bards".<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN>:smileysad:</SPAN><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>clearly run animation are more important then a multiple month long thread concerning a class, we have yet to have *one* red name respond to this thread in the slightest acknowledgment

[ironman2000]

I know its not an excuse and shouldn't be, but they do have and are working on a new expansion pack and have a lot of resources going into that atm.  Maybe once they are done with it we'll get some love.

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ironman2000 wrote:<BR> I know its not an excuse and shouldn't be, but they do have and are working on a new expansion pack and have a lot of resources going into that atm.  Maybe once they are done with it we'll get some love.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>then why not throw us a bone? tell us at least things will be improved (or nerfed) come the expansion with the extended AA's. at this point im worried that no reddev has said anything in this thread because they are nerfing us even more.</P> <P> </P> <P>i went through  the sony's SWG 'new game enhancements' and two combat changes...so i know no updates are not good updates. mostly things suddenly go in and it makes a ton of people leave</P>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> VericSauvari wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ironman2000 wrote:<BR> I know its not an excuse and shouldn't be, but they do have and are working on a new expansion pack and have a lot of resources going into that atm.  Maybe once they are done with it we'll get some love.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>then why not throw us a bone? tell us at least things will be improved (or nerfed) come the expansion with the extended AA's. at this point im worried that no reddev has said anything in this thread because they are nerfing us even more.</P> <P> </P> <P>i went through  the sony's SWG 'new game enhancements' and two combat changes...so i know no updates are not good updates. mostly things suddenly go in and it makes a ton of people leave</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually it's quite simple. Instead of changing us for the better, they're going to nerf every other buffs in the game. It takes time to balance the buffs. It'll be the bard equivalent of the crowd control changes.</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> VericSauvari wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> ironman2000 wrote: <div></div>I know its not an excuse and shouldn't be, but they do have and are working on a new expansion pack and have a lot of resources going into that atm.  Maybe once they are done with it we'll get some love. <hr> </blockquote> <p>then why not throw us a bone? tell us at least things will be improved (or nerfed) come the expansion with the extended AA's. at this point im worried that no reddev has said anything in this thread because they are nerfing us even more.</p> <p>i went through  the sony's SWG 'new game enhancements' and two combat changes...so i know no updates are not good updates. mostly things suddenly go in and it makes a ton of people leave</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Actually it's quite simple. Instead of changing us for the better, they're going to nerf every other buffs in the game. It takes time to balance the buffs. It'll be the bard equivalent of the crowd control changes.</p><hr></blockquote>I hear in the expansion for pvp they are nerfing ALL debuffs.  Even bard debuffs that dont do ANYTHING to a person decked out in full relic let alone deathtoll gear.   You suck SoE.</div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div></div><div></div>Just a small update for all you dirges out there.  The new AA's are pretty disapointing.  Cant really go into much, but i can say apparently they looked at this post a little bit.  But instead of fixing us they just made the ideas into AA's.  Except the ideas that involve more spells like jester's cap and CoB.  <div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class=date_text>10-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:12 PM</span>

[Antipalad]

Please make troubador debuffs on par with dirge debuffs please, as it is now, we have Kian's to debuff wis and do a minor dot. Rest of our debuffs are either shared with dirge, or not worth maintaining.

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> Just a small update for all you dirges out there.  The new AA's are pretty disapointing.  Cant really go into much, but i can say apparently they looked at this post a little bit.  But instead of fixing us they just made the ideas into AA's.  Except the ideas that involve more spells like jester's cap and CoB.  <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> <P><BR><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <SPAN class=date_text>10-14-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:12 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well colour me surprised. </P> <P>Actually, don't.</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div></div><div></div><p>Yea i was kinda hoping for better honestly.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class=date_text>10-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:13 PM</span>

[Jaimster]

That's just really sad.... Any word on the Troub AA's being good or disappointing?

[Lynadianya Zeran]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Novatar wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> ironman2000 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Don't tell me how to play one and I won't tell you how to play one either.</DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV> <P>Never told you how to play.  Just seems to me that 90% of the Troubadors posting on this thread are worried more about there Charm/Mez.  The fact of the matter is simple it was finally brought into line with Dirge fear.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok, so this is an older post, but I wanted to make something clear for you.  Troub charm and Dirge fear are not comparable abilities.  Troubs got Mez as their level 50 spell.  Dirges got Rez as their 50 spell.  Those are the 2 comparable ones.  Troubs were designed from the beginning to be mini-chanters.  When that ability was stipped from us, it made a lot of people very upset.   So, if they are going to make mez in line with dirge fear, then they need to give us another "class defining" skill.</P> <P> </P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jaimster wrote:<div></div>That's just really sad.... Any word on the Troub AA's being good or disappointing?<hr></blockquote>Ill put it to you like this.  Remember in LU24 when they nerfed a couple dirge/troubs spells reuse time?  Well now you can get those precious seconds back with new AA's!  I love it.  They take it away and then sell it back to us.  Beautiful marketing.</div>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaimster wrote:<BR> That's just really sad.... Any word on the Troub AA's being good or disappointing?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ill put it to you like this.  Remember in LU24 when they nerfed a couple dirge/troubs spells reuse time?  Well now you can get those precious seconds back with new AA's!  <BR><BR>I love it.  They take it away and then sell it back to us.  Beautiful marketing.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/beckons whoever decided this was the way to go.... nope, closer... /smack</P> <P>That's just bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

If you want your debuffs to acually scale properly youll also have to spend some AA's as well.  Why fix bards for free!  We can sell them a fix in the new expansion!  <div></div>

[TalanRM]

<P>So in order to make buffs scale (and even then not very well in allot of cases) in T7 we need to spend archtype AAs?</P> <P>In order to make debuffs scale in T7 we need to spend profession AAs? With the stat changes that are coming in at the same time are attribute debuffs still going to be effectively weaker on raid mobs even after AAs as they will (presumably) only be debuffing the softcapped element?</P> <P>In order to regain some of our former recast times (which were presumably extended for game balance reasons - otherwise why was it done?) we need to spend AAs?</P> <P>I guess that bards must be a really tough profession to think of abilities for... The above are just utterly unexciting and feel like a smack in face - "Hey guess what we realise some of your abilities need improving. Don't worry instead of having somethingto look forward too you can spend AAs on making your T7 abilities almost scale from their T5 equivilents!"</P> <P>Are we able to get some reassurance that allot level 3 & 4 AAs are not still going to be used as a reason not resolve poor buff and debuff scaling?</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>TalanRM wrote:<div></div> <p>So in order to make buffs scale (and even then not very well in allot of cases) in T7 we need to spend archtype AAs?</p> <p>In order to make debuffs scale in T7 we need to spend profession AAs? With the stat changes that are coming in at the same time are attribute debuffs still going to be effectively weaker on raid mobs even after AAs as they will (presumably) only be debuffing the softcapped element?</p> <p>In order to regain some of our former recast times (which were presumably extended for game balance reasons - otherwise why was it done?) we need to spend AAs?</p> <p>I guess that bards must be a really tough profession to think of abilities for... The above are just utterly unexciting and feel like a smack in face - "Hey guess what we realise some of your abilities need improving. Don't worry instead of having somethingto look forward too you can spend AAs on making your T7 abilities almost scale from their T5 equivilents!"</p> <p>Are we able to get some reassurance that allot level 3 & 4 AAs are not still going to be used as a reason not resolve poor buff and debuff scaling?</p><hr></blockquote>Dont worry though!  Youll finnally be able to add a ward to that resist song, for the cost of a couple AA points of course, and its really not even that great.  But that was probably the best thing they did right there.  Add a ward that should have been with the spell in the first place since it costs a concentration slot.  Seems like all they really did was add proc chance to our spells which we complained about in the post. Lowered recast times on spells that they raised the recast time in LU24.  Basically selling us back what they nerfed. Made our debuffs scale properly. And added a ward to our resist song.and of course...the next ultimate AA line...IMPROVED SAFEFALL!  So basically what SoE did here is smack us all in the face good and hard.  Face it bards.  Its just time to /reroll.  Maybe when they realize noone wants to play a class they cant put any thought into, they will acually make an atempt to fix it.</div>

[Calman]

<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I banked my 70 troub.I rerolled a conjurer got him to 70 then nerf hit. rolled a bruiser he's 54 but to tell the truth,  I was hoping for some bard love from the dev's. I think its time to move on.  At least there's a few games coming up that look intresting.  so its not all that bad. I just don't think any Dev has any love for the bard classes. so no intrest in sorting them out.  or there are other more pressing matters like female run anim. I feel the Bard class is lacking a core ability that shines out IMO. maybe we had one a few nerfs back but its faded now to a faint glint. thats fading every LU it seems.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Bards are just too darn DULL. sort it out Devs. LOL.<div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Calman wrote:<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I banked my 70 troub.I rerolled a conjurer got him to 70 then nerf hit. rolled a bruiser he's 54 but to tell the truth,  I was hoping for some bard love from the dev's. I think its time to move on.  At least there's a few games coming up that look intresting.  so its not all that bad. I just don't think any Dev has any love for the bard classes. so no intrest in sorting them out.  or there are other more pressing matters like female run anim. I feel the Bard class is lacking a core ability that shines out IMO. maybe we had one a few nerfs back but its faded now to a faint glint. thats fading every LU it seems.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Bards are just too darn DULL. sort it out Devs. LOL.<div></div><hr></blockquote>The vanguard bard is amazing.  Instruments, DPS, and you acually get to make your own songs to twist.  </div>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calman wrote:<BR><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I banked my 70 troub.I rerolled a conjurer got him to 70 then nerf hit. rolled a bruiser he's 54 but to tell the truth,  I was hoping for some bard love from the dev's. I think its time to move on.  At least there's a few games coming up that look intresting.  so its not all that bad. <BR><BR>I just don't think any Dev has any love for the bard classes. so no intrest in sorting them out.  or there are other more pressing matters like female run anim. I feel the Bard class is lacking a core ability that shines out IMO. maybe we had one a few nerfs back but its faded now to a faint glint. thats fading every LU it seems.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>Bards are just too darn DULL. sort it out Devs. LOL.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The vanguard bard is amazing.  Instruments, DPS, and you acually get to make your own songs to twist.  <BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's the <STRONG>only</STRONG> nice thing.

[Landiin]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lordviperscorpian wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Jaimster wrote:<div></div>That's just really sad.... Any word on the Troub AA's being good or disappointing?<hr></blockquote>Ill put it to you like this.  Remember in LU24 when they nerfed a couple dirge/troubs spells reuse time?  Well now you can get those precious seconds back with new AA's!  I love it.  They take it away and then sell it back to us.  Beautiful marketing.</div><hr></blockquote>If you played EQI Live you knew this was coming. That why I cried like a baby when I seen they where putting AA's in EQ2, I knew all my hard earned skills where going to be nerft. I remeber when EQLive added AA's. All of the sudden every one was fizzeling like a MOFO. Oh wait 12 ( i think it was) aa's later you could fix that lol. At least in EQ2 they nerfed us all ( well most of us) before they added the AA's in.But really you can't blame them, what else are they to do, to keep us playing? They can't keep making us more powerful can they? At some point we would raid SOE for their lootz..</div>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Landiin wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaimster wrote:<BR> That's just really sad.... Any word on the Troub AA's being good or disappointing?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ill put it to you like this.  Remember in LU24 when they nerfed a couple dirge/troubs spells reuse time?  Well now you can get those precious seconds back with new AA's!  <BR><BR>I love it.  They take it away and then sell it back to us.  Beautiful marketing.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you played EQI Live you knew this was coming. That why I cried like a baby when I seen they where putting AA's in EQ2, I knew all my hard earned skills where going to be nerft. I remeber when EQLive added AA's. All of the sudden every one was fizzeling like a MOFO. Oh wait 12 ( i think it was) aa's later you could fix that lol. At least in EQ2 they nerfed us all ( well most of us) before they added the AA's in.<BR><BR>But really you can't blame them, what else are they to do, to keep us playing? They can't keep making us more powerful can they? At some point we would raid SOE for their lootz..<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>what date does the expansion come out? i really want to know how bards will be tweaked/treated once the NDA is lifted. i would HOPE there is something worthwhile for us. i understand from various sources troubs and dirges will finally get a seperate AA tree. </P> <P>if they truely are nerfing us only to 'give us back' what is lost via AA's i'll probably be parking myself on my brigand or inquis. i am hoping for more then marginal impacts/add-on's to our existing buffs, and for christ sakes i pray the stats scale this time around.</P> <P> </P> <P>who am i kidding. we have had zero acknowledgment from the devs anything is being looked into or even acknowledgment of the bard class issues. i believe this thread is now the longest running thread in this subforum to not even have a mod pop in.<BR></P>

[Cuz]

Yeah I'm waiting for the NDA to be lifted before I (pre)download it. The fact that they may have nerfed us just to make us pay 30$ to be back at square 1 and the tight character limit, I may just skip it all together, and Just wait til I can get my hands on a PS3 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jaimster]

<P>I think the most obnoxious thing is that even after all the nerfs, a lot of us adapted and kept playing... if the new AA"s gave us something new and interesting to look forward to, it would be one thing - we could be happy and content that our class was moving forward. To allow us to choose some of our old skills back is (would be? has it been confirmed?) a complete [Removed for Content] slap followed by a kick to the head... then ribs.  </P> <P>We have given SO many ideas, not only here, but in the Troub forums (not sure about dirges) about how Bards can be improved should you choose to bother improving us; and how aspects of our class need to be fixed, like the scaling issues.  </P> <P>There are so many things you could do to enhance us (nm fixing things like scaling) that would make playing a bard more enticing... perhaps add 3 or 4 more jester like spells to cast on people, e.g. one that can be cast on a healer - for 30 seconds, cost of all heals is reduced by 50%, one that can be cast on tank to absorb all hate gain of group members for 30 seconds (not to remove or change Alin;s but in addition to), etc, etc, etc.</P> <P>The fact that someone wasted time to fix a run animation that wasn't broken; that someone wasted time rearranging/moving/removing tradeskill areas that no one wanted changed; that you seem to FIX everything that ISN"T broken and leave alone the things that are, is just mindblowingly depressing.</P> <P>There is no longer any point to my being a grouping or soloing troubador... good thing I enjoy raiding. But I quest and group with all my other characters because doing anything besides raiding on my trouby just reminds me how really uninteresting it is anymore... </P>

[Egeis]

If the devs wont fix us lets convense them to "fix" everyone else.  Why should every other class be able to take on heroics with ease, lets make them nerf every other class so they get to understand the fun it is to level a bard when no groups are available.  It took me over a week, casual play, to get on level between 35-38.   It got better after that, I was able to get a level a day with a combination of power leveling groups, discovery, and collection quests.  Of course, those pesky Heroic^^^ would slaughter me if I got near a single one.  As far as Vanguard, Im pretty sure the NDA has not been lifted so dont trust any information you see to be the truth.<div></div>

[VericSauvari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Egeis wrote:<BR>If the devs wont fix us lets convense them to "fix" everyone else.  Why should every other class be able to take on heroics with ease, lets make them nerf every other class so they get to understand the fun it is to level a bard when no groups are available.  It took me over a week, casual play, to get on level between 35-38.   It got better after that, I was able to get a level a day with a combination of power leveling groups, discovery, and collection quests.  Of course, those pesky Heroic^^^ would slaughter me if I got near a single one.  <BR><BR>As far as Vanguard, Im pretty sure the NDA has not been lifted so dont trust any information you see to be the truth.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i am just more  surprised we are going on page 10, thats pretty impressive for a non-graphical dancing/walking fix which clearly is a number one priority for the player base.

[Jaimster]

<P>What's amazing is we've got a 10 page thread going that has totally been ignored (well maybe not ignore, but certainly not commented on) and it's not even in the deep recesses of the troubador forums where you expect it to be ignored.... that's impressive.</P> <P>The best thing about the bards asking for fixes/enhancements is it's one of the few classes where other classes will hop on and say... actually, they aren't just whining... they could use a little boost... and please stop nerfing them into a useful but totally boring existence... </P> <P>Please continue supporting your local bards =)</P> <P>It's amazing how many low level bards there are... just most of them don't seem to make it much past the 40's mark...</P>

[TalanRM]

<P>Without actually saying that the are looking into bard buff/ debuff scaling, Tombs/ Dissonant (spelling) getting replaced, instruments being added or some other hugely positive news I dont think a Dev is ever likely to post a response to this thread. The best we can hope for is that some of the issues raised get silently taken on board. Maybe by overhauling the AAs rumoured to be on test or maybe by actually checking out which buffs/ debuffs havent scaled in a few tiers.</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Seriously, i wish a dev would just say one of 2 things:1.  We are looking into Bards to see what we can do to make them on par with the rest of the game.or2.  Just reroll because we have no current plans on making the bard anything but an auto-follow buff bot.  So if a dev can just select answer 1 or 2 i think we can all move on.  And just an update on my vanguard bard, its pretty much the best bard class ever made.  It blows the EQ1 bard out of the water.  The difference in having a bard in your group verse not having one grouped is amazing.  So have no fear friends.  A real bard class is coming soon, one that acually has INSTRUMENTS.  I seriously cannot log onto my EQ2 bard after playing my vanguard bard to level 10.  In just those 10 levels i have more variety than any of the 2 EQ2 bards have at 70.  Its a joke.  <div></div>

[Cuz]

<DIV>Hehe I did the exact opposite. I reactivated my EQ2 account. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be fair their bard is leagues better than the ones here.</DIV>

[Tri]

<div></div>Don't even bother giving ideas seems to be their leitmotiv... 3 points in + def AA buff  won t change ANYTHING, not even with the lvl 60 spell and of course it's working as intended ( when you have no answers that must be the case right? ) seems the bards and all there friends / guildmates should start spamming threads everywhere , maybe by then some answers will be given on the subject because it seems there is an  /ignore bard  option for officials. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Triag on <span class=date_text>10-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:30 AM</span>

[Arondur]

<P>my 2 coppers.</P> <P>you know, I was all set to make posting jumping on your band wagon, listing all the crud we have had to put up with the last year or so.  but whats the point, the devs wont listen. </P> <P> </P> <P>So, Ill just add my Troub is semi parked. Really only manages my store now and comes out for RP purposes.  Very rarely, I will go out and hunt (solo or group. I dont Raid, at all) finally made lvl 61. If I remember correctly thats 2 lvls since LU 24 came out. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Qwestionator]

Its all cool viper, at least brigands dont have the ability to teleport right up to us and kill us....oh wait .  group safe fall sure is swell, dont you agree?<div></div>

[Goldenflig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaimster wrote:<BR> <P>What's amazing is we've got a 10 page thread going that has totally been ignored (well maybe not ignore, but certainly not commented on) and it's not even in the deep recesses of the troubador forums where you expect it to be ignored.... that's impressive.</P> <P>The best thing about the bards asking for fixes/enhancements is it's one of the few classes where other classes will hop on and say... actually, they aren't just whining... they could use a little boost... and please stop nerfing them into a useful but totally boring existence... </P> <P>Please continue supporting your local bards =)</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>It's amazing how many low level bards there are... just most of them don't seem to make it much past the 40's mark...</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/sobs</P> <P>/agrees</P> <P>I love this class... I really do. I've rolled 4 troubadors, no, lemme think... 5.  My highest one has been level 44 for months and is not moving forward and is likely to stay there until I leave this game. I  have one at level 32... I use both of them for low level harvesting now. I can't even bring myself to use them (as I have SO often posted) as even bots on my 2nd comp.  I used to 2-box.. really play them. Both solo and in guild groups.   I've given up and started soloing a warden. Maybe It's time to just cancel the 2nd account. </P> <P>I thought I had finally found the one game out of all the MMORPGs that had the one class I could truly relish: caster/scout/melee/utility. I've even recommended it to others newly joining the game who were struggling between healer/tank/troubador decisions; others also looking for the joy a real hybrid could bring.</P> <P> </P> <P>Here's what I'd like: either real dps (enough to reasonably solo) or</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Just (finish) gut(ting) the class, and let it do marginal heals instead of melee</FONT>.   At least I could stop kidding myself it is possible to solo on something other than no-triangle greens.  And puts it in the same bucket as my much-loved-gimpy-joke-speed-bot abandoned bard from another game. At least that one could rez.  </P> <P> </P> <P>/sigh</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Goldenflight on <span class=date_text>10-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:44 PM</span>

[Tri]

<div></div> One encounter DD , with such a long casting timerand ridicule damage, that it s only usefullif your procs kick in.     ---> working as intended ?No AoE, none , nada, nothing, as if only that monster over there willhear the shrill    ---> working as intended ?2 years since game launch, and still no instruments ---> W. as intended?Was said troubs were mini chanters, then this was stealth changed from the classdescription, will they ninja change it again with the new AAs ?Having to burn fingers to do mediocre DPS ?it s not a question of how much dps, it s about the effort / reward ratio,and if you re not dpsing you re slacking because youdon t have much else to do.<div></div>